#Daemyra but improved

[ammmyturtle]

Viserys II Targaryen x Visenya Targaryen before their wedding XD

[crimsoncold]

WHAT IT FEELS LIKE IN THE HOTD FANDOM RIGHT now as someone who is disappointed in the show's handling of team green and really just critical the show's writing in general

Team Green Stans and/or HOTD critics:

"I know I'm going to get a barrage of criticism or even hate/harassment for saying this but...

HOTD's writing is rather biased and strays from the source material in ways that are frequently ridiculous, fails to actually improve the story, and totally ignores the anti-war and the general targ/ruling class critical tone of GRRM's writing.

Yes villain or dark character centric shows can be really good even when the purpose of the story isn't to condemn their actions- BUT purposefully changing an adaptation of a story so that it no longer contains the original message/themes that did criticize the characters and their actions is at the very least a questionable writing choice.

The characterization and the messages of the show are inconsistent in a way that doesn't feel intentional or in order to make a point- instead it just doesn't make sense. ALL characters suffer due to the choices of the writers/showrunners- including team black- but team green is obviously getting the worst of it (seriously its cartoonishly bad). It's all so nonsensical and frustrating that it's getting harder and harder to watch- really at this point its no longer even a fun bad! show that can still manage to be entertaining even when the story itself sucks.

Much like with d&d with the later seasons of GOT it's disappointing to see the poor quality of work coming from paid professional writers, this could have been a show about a tragic and dramatic conflict between characters who are mostly bad people yet are still compelling or sympathetic and instead we got ...well...this."

Some Team Black Stans:

"Come on people HoTD is an adaptation so of course things will differ from the books but the show still stays true to the heart of the book, the changes were not a big deal- in fact some were good choices by the showrunners making more disturbing and violent aspects of the book more palatable for the audience without lessening their emotional impact... B&C was toned down not to whitewash team black but because no one should want to see the multiple child homicides from the book take place on screen...and the violence here really isn't as important to the plot as it was for say GOT's red wedding... toning the violent or horrific nature of these deaths down and having it occur off screen is the right thing to do! It's still sad- and this way we didn't need to traumatize the actors OR the audience!

Really people just stop complaining... both sides of the conflict are presented as EQUALLY culpable and in the wrong as the other side, team green stans are just missing the subtle points being made in the show and are exaggerating when they criticize the writing or supposed inconsistent characterization and accuse the showrunner's of being biased.

These TG stans are just being so mean and should stop criticizing the writers/showrunners-who are just doing their job!- and even if they feel they have to criticize the writing it's really just so inappropriate to ever specifically name the writers/showrunners when doing so! It's one thing for fandom to anonymously criticize other fans- especially since TG Stan's takes are so misguided that they obviously need someone to explain to them how they are misinterpreting things- but criticizing the professional writers and showrunners through tumblr posts is out of line! Its not the writer's fault that Alicent and TG are hypocritical or less likable than TB- that may just be how they are in canon- to say that the storytellers are purposefully changing things to make TG less sympathetic or competent than they were in the books and to set them up as the unlikeable antagonistic opposite to the now more tragic and heroic TB is a ridiculous accusation!"

Other Team Black Stans:

"Daemyra is just the best ship, they have loved eachother since she was a teenager and now after years of pining and being kept apart they are finally free to be together, you never see supportive or healthy relationships like this in asoiaf, we stan a man who will do literally anything and kill anyone for his niece wife.

Lucerys was just an innocent baby when he sliced up Aemond's face, he was just protecting his big brother, it only happened because he was afraid for their lives! Viserys made the right choice not to punish anyone since the team black kids only attacked Aemond after he stole Rhaena's dragon and Lucerys was only using self defense when he used a knife on Aemond. Most especially Lucerys and his mother didn't deserve to be attacked by that bitch Alic*nt. And Rheanyra trying to have Aemond tortured for calling her sons bastards was just her being a rightfully protective mother! Team Green means her family harm and no way will a bamf like Rhaenyra let that slide... this is what a good mother does not like that terrible Alic*nt! Lucerys' death was so tragic can't wait to see a grieving mother get her revenge... TG believes in an eye for an eye don't they? Well how will they like a son for a son?

TG stans keep saying that Rhaenyra is just as violent entitled and problematic as anyone else on hotd! They are so wrong! They are just delusional haters that can't stand to see a woman have sexual freedom and be in a position of power! She is the better daughter/wife/mother and the only people she hates are the ones who deserve it!

See she isn't evil like the Hightowers- B&C was an accident and the book description was exaggerated to be used as propaganda against Rhaenyra- she didn't even know it was happening. It wasn't even team blacks intent to kill little Jaehaerys only to kill Aemond- but he's a kinslayer so them sending someone to assassinate their nephew/brother is totally in the right and not something any character in canon would judge them for!... Rhaenyra is just too good of a person to wish harm on any of her innocent family members. Everything that happened to Rhaenyra, Rhaenys, and Meleys is just so tragic... they are the only true queens in this series ...god i wish all of their pain was only experienced by team green lol.

You know what ...are TG stans children or something? Why do they keep complaining that team green is being unfairly villainized to make team black look better? Don't they know they can just watch a show where the characters are flawed/bad people without needing the story to spoon feed the audience the message that bad people need to be condemned? Why do they take things so seriously? Why is this their whole personality? Get a life and stop overthinking a book/tv show -not everything needs to be deep you know so just shut up and enjoy watching the dragons destroy things.

But for real how can you people stan misogynistic women haters like team green or a trad wife/women for trump like Alic*nt? Like yikes what does your fictional character preferences say about you as a person. Hey EVERYBODY look these weirdos are really out here defending and woobifying violent predatory and sexist characters like team green! This fandom is the worse i swear lmfao."

Meanwhile...

Showrunners/Writers:

"What if the civil war, brutal violence, and tragic kinslaying that happened in the dance of dragons was really just a series of accidents and misunderstandings?

What if Rhaenyra and Alicent were friends who never really hated one another, and Alicent was pining for Rhaenyra's friendship and acceptance for the last 20 years, what if neither of them even wanted to go to war?

Who cares about house stark or the pact of ice and fire, or Jace's interactions with Cregan or Sara? You know what Sara Snow doesn't even exist, Jon i mean Jace would never betray his betrothal/loyalty/vows to his dragonrider soulmate and future wife for some stark girl! This whole stark side plot isn't important lets just go back to the dragons!

What if Rhaenyra wanted the throne because she knew that from her descendants the prophesied saviour/prince that was promised would be born? What if instead of her surviving son Aegon being so traumatized by the horrors of this meaningless war that he actually hated and feared dragons afterward- and supposedly was even responsible for killing the last one- it is Rhaenyra who was actually responsible for saving Daenerys' future dragon eggs- and thus she the one who ensured the return of dragons to Westeros! It will be Rhaenyra through her choices and her descendants that will be responsible for saving the entire realm and defeating the others with dragon fire!

What if Alicent pushing her son to be crowned was all because she was a fool who misunderstood the words of her dying husband NOT because she felt her son was unfairly robbed of his birthright by his father?

What happened with Daenerys in the later seasons of GOT was so unfair- just terrible writing -she NEVER should have been made out to be a mad queen and i bet Rhaenyra wasn't actually a cruel or violent ruler either! I bet it was the men who slandered her, and the men who were pushing for war and violence while all the women were actually trying to keep the peace.

Wait...wait.... What if everything in the book that criticized Rhaenyra was actually propaganda made by her enemies to ruin her reputation!?!!? Yeah B&C and team black arranging the horrific murder of a child? That story was TOTALLY team green exaggerating the violent murder of their child/grandchild. Daenerys I mean Rhaenyra deserved so much better... and all the injustices that happened to her will be the most impactful and tragic element of this show.

What if TG didnt actually have strong bonds with their dragon or spend much time riding them?... just more propaganda! Yes! CGI is expensive so this also means we dont really have to show their dragons unless they are fighting the blacks. Team Black's bond with their dragons is much more powerful and important though so we should still show them spending time together and riding them.

What if the book description of the respect and loyalty team green had to one another and the terrible grief they felt at the loss of their family members was ALSO just team green propaganda? What if Alicent only ever struggled as a mother and failed to connect with her kids and actually didn't even like or respect her children? How many kids did she have anyway? Three? Yeah that sounds right. Oh wait! Wait! What if none of TG got along with or trusted one other? No...no...What if they actually hated and betrayed each other? YESSSS!!!!!!!

Team black and their descendants are the true Targaryens, no one is really interested in the boring team green anyways so at least these changes will make them more interesting and better foils for team black! This type of story is exactly what people want I just know they are going to love it."

NOTE: (because i know idiots will be lurking in the anti tags to complain or harass people)

this is mostly meant to be very critical of the showrunners and somewhat critical of a specific type of stanning behaviour and the weird criticism or harassment that gets directed at people who like team green or who criticize hotd - sure i may be exaggerating slightly for effect but l'm STILL pulling from real posts/comments/opinions that I see from TB stans ...Like sure they aren't putting ALL of this in a single post but collectively this is definitely the type of attitude and language many TB stans have

Fandom is just about enjoying a special interest - I dont actually care about or want to police who you stan or ship. I DO care that some of you purposefully and directly harass real people because you disagree with their opinion on fictional characters and that some of you leave uncharitable, ignorant, critical, or unpleasant comments on properly tagged Team Green/anti or TB critical/or hotd critical posts.

Most of all i just find it really funny the juxtaposition there is between how underwhelming and juvenile the show's storytelling choices are compared to how eloquently, persistently, or vehemently fans will write up either criticism or defense pieces for these characters, this objectively bad show, and it's deeply unimpressive writing... like sure some fans put more effort into understanding the source material and comparing it to the show and some put more effort into criticizing or defending the show,the writing, or specific characters but collectively nearly all of us are putting in more time, effort, and thought into hotd than ANY of the showrunners/writers.

In conclusion Guys just like or dislike whatever show/characters you want...you don't have to justify the things you like by being willfully in denial about what canon sources say/the nature of certain characters/or the quality of the show's writing. You definitely don't need to be disrespectful or attack people on behalf of fictional characters or the well paid hbo showrunners/writers.

[reginarubie]

When HotD got out everyone was like Oh, Daemyra is the new, improved Jonerys with good storyline

And I didn’t give it too much attention, you know I stay mostly in my line and don’t mess around with shit that doesn’t interest me (like Jonerys) but now that I think of it…

I’ll do you all one better (and maybe I am late at the party as always, because I can’t be the only one noticing this)

Jonsa is the reversed, evolved, less entitled (both Jon and Sansa start as spoiled characters but have their entitlement beaten out of them pretty soon, and we love them for it), more duty-oriented (thank you Ned) Daemyra.

I mean all signs point in that direction and I see you 👀 GRRM pushing the Jonsa agenda further on!

And now I’ll tell you what sources I have to base my logic on (and maybe I am wrong ey, but I think it fits Jonsa more, as of now, though Martin could totally disprove me going the other way confronted to the way the show concluded knowing his ending).

So, at the beginning of the story, Robb becomes king in the North by popular demand.

In the first episode Viserys becomes heir (and later king) by popular demand.

Both Robb and Viserys inherit their position by their much beloved predecessor (Jaehaerys and Ned) and both are ‘named/appointed’ by a conclave of lords/ladies in the Riverlands ffs.

Both Viserys and Robb end up planting, with their own politics, the seeds of the shit storm that almost threatens to destroy their family after their death.

Robb marries Jeyne (Talisa in the show) instead of the Frey betrothed thus snubbing the Freys and going back on his word. He dies without an heir leaving the North in shambles when he had been a step from winning the war.

Viserys names Rhaenyra heir and then — instead of marrying the Velaryon girl — marries Alicent and has more children knowing that if they were male it could cause disrupt with the line of succession.

Both are idolised after their death — Viserys taking the name of The Peaceful thanks to the ruling and politics of his Queen and council and Robb by being sanctified by his siblings and lords even tho he was the one causing most of the problems who caused his death and almost destroyed the North — both Viserys and Robb loose their heirs.

Viserys loses his sons by Aemma

Robb dies childless and his heirs (Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya) are to his knowledge lost (Bran and Rickon presumed killed, Arya presumed dead and Sansa married to a Lannister).

The heir that remains them, their younger brother/sister (Daemon and Sansa) is not considered worthy of inheriting after them — Daemon for his character and Sansa because she has been married to a Lannister — so both do the same thing, they disinherit their lawful and rightful heir (yes Bran and Rickon and Arya are alive but Robb doesn’t know it; Viserys will have Aegon, Aemond, Daeron and Helaena but he doesn’t know nor care) to name another as heir someone who, by law, should pass after the rightful heir.

It seems to me like some pretty big parallels here.

Daemon = Sansa

Daemon and Sansa are the second born children of a couple who love each other and apparently their mother’ fav.

And you know what’s sick? Daemon and Sansa both supported their brother’ right to any extent.

Daemon readied men-at-arms and sworn swords to defend Viserys’ claim when people rumoured Corlys wanted to assemble a fleet to defend Laenor’ right after Rhaenys.

Sansa bled for the northern independence when in KL and then later — and this is only show for now — Sansa gathered the northern army and put KL under siege to defend her brother. Sansa is the one who decided to rally the lords of the North behind House Stark once again (Jon was done fighting) and she was the one to offer Bran the role of Lord of WF when he returned from Beyond the Wall.

Despite being loyal to their family in their own way, both Daemon and Sansa are disinherited by their king in favor of someone they love but that by law should have come after them.

By succession tradition and law the brother of a king becomes before the daughter of a king — unless women can inherit the throne which was not the case in Westeros at the time — so Daemon came before Rhaenyra in the line of succession, yet Viserys disinherited him to name Rhaenyra heir.

By law and tradition of succession Sansa as the trueborn eldest surviving daughter of Ned and Cat in the evenience of Robb dying without heirs (Bran and Rickon are both presumed dead) comes before Jon, the base born son of Ned Stark. (Jon himself says so “by law Winterfell belongs to my sister, Sansa”/“Winterfell belongs to my sister, Sansa”, even though Sansa is a Lannister, a murderess and apparently dissolved in thin air) yet Robb with his will disinherit Sansa to name Jon heir.

Everyone expected Daemon/Sansa to be angry at Jon/Rhaenyra because of it — Rhaenyra herself and the viewer when Jon was named KitN — instead what happened?

Daemon became Rhaenyra’ stauncher supporter and Sansa became Jon’s. Daemon supported Rhaenyra and Sansa supported Jon. When people expected Daemon to lash out when the terms of surrender were issued, he obeyed Rhaenyra order without issue; when the northern lords unsatisfied with Jon’ stay in Dragonstone offered the crown to Sansa, Sansa refused and defended Jon’s claim. All she did in s8 was to defend Jon’s claim to the North and the Realm.

And you know what else is incredible?

Daemon is suspected to have “caused” his first wife’ death and his second wife died in childbirth. Rhea Royce died after a fall from horseback — in the show Daemon kills her, but in the book she dies of the wounds later on, as the hit to the head might have caused her delayed death. Still Daemon is suspected to have caused it — the horse to unseat Rhea — and tried to inherit his wife’ keep.

Sansa “caused” her first betrothed, Joffrey’ death, by telling the truth to Olenna and Margaery which spurned them to have him killed at his own wedding feast. Sansa escapes and her first husband is almost killed for the crime — almost making her a widow.

Both Daemon and Sansa are more skilled than their counterpart in their competence. Daemon is the most skilled warrior of his time, Sansa has learned politics from the best and worst in it.

Daemon finds himself at odds with his brother with the war of the stepstones and Sansa finds herself at odds with her brother whilst in KL as she has to navigate and survive the southern court and Joffrey.

Yet both return to their brother in the end, Sansa by remaining true to her Stark identity (“I am not your daughter, I am the Lord Eddard and lady Catelyn’s daughter. The blood of Winterfell”/ “what if it is truth he wants and justice for his lady?”) and Daemon by winning and giving the crown to his brother.

Sansa wins the battle of bastards through her alliance with the Knights of the Vale and lets her brother take the crown.

Sansa and Daemon are both described as beautiful, charming and dashing. But Daemon is mercurial and Sansa is called a witch for her apparent part in Joffrey’ death.

Both Daemon and Sansa are advisors in their capacity to their brother/king though they have to clamor to be recognised any degree of validity. Sansa has to fight to gain the right to be Jon’s advisor even if he chooses Davos as chief advisor as Viserys chose Otto.

Daemon’s children are the one who inherit the Iron throne after the DotD. Sansa’s children will inherit WF and the North after asoiaf is done.

Jon = Rhaenyra

Jon and Rhaenyra are the odd ones out of this.

Rhaenyra knew her place, she prayed for a brother to inherit the Iron throne just like Jon would have died to defend Robb or any of his siblings (and in the book he does die for fakeArya). But both are ambitious.

Rhaenyra accepts she will be queen and makes of it her identity; Jon dreamed of become Lord of Winterfell before he knew what that entailed.

Both Rhaenyra and Jon expect that their orders — despite their intentions — will be followed, even when they go against hundreds of years of tradition. Rhaenyra as Queen and Jon believes the NW will follow to war against the Boltons when the NW has been neutral for thousand of years. And both pay the ultimate price for it. Death.

Jon is killed by his sworn brothers, Rhaenyra is killed by her brother’s dragon.

Both Rhaenyra and Jon have the temper of their family but they control it for the most part. It takes really big things for it to be spiked. Luke’s death for example.

Both Rhaenyra and Jon are intertwined with fake relationships. Both cause the death of their first lover/spouse.

Rhaenyra marries Laenor to keep the Velaryon in her corner, Laenor who is a gay man — in the book she is much less understanding of it btw — and their relationship is fake and her children aren’t his. In the show she loves him platonically, though I don’t remember that being the case in the book. In the end, whether his death is faked or not, Rhaenyra causes that. Either by having him killed — as they say in the book — or by having him fake his death to marry Daemon to strengthen her claim.

Jon has a “fake” relationship with Ygritte (you know what I think of her in the book) to make sure his undercover mission is accomplished. In the end Jon’ mission is accomplished and even though he “fell in love with her” he still left her and the war between them ended up claiming her life.

After the death of the heir — Balon and Bran and Rickon — Rhaenyra and Jon are both raised to the role of heir by their king with a decree that disinherited/snubbed the previous law-ful heir (Sansa/Daemon).

At the same time, Viserys/Robb have other heirs. Viserys marries and has sons (who have sons), Rickon and Bran are both alive though presumed dead who could end up threatening Jon’s claim once the will becomes active after Jon’ return from the dead.

They have sexual tension with the snubbed heir and value them as advisors though they don’t always agree with their politics.

Jon feels that Sansa’ opinion demeans him before the Lords — tho he names her regent — and Rhaenyra distrust Daemon not to declare war without her say-so.

And yet both Jon and Rhaenyra gain the ripe of Sansa and Daemon’ loyalty.

Even if Jon and Sansa don’t always see eye to eye, Sansa loyalty to Jon is what gets him out of KL alive, without Daemon’ skills as warrior Rhaenyra’ war would have ended long before it started.

Sansa and Daemon both are against Jon and Rhaenyra to surrender their crown, and work to keep the other half in their role.

And you know what? There’s more.

Gifts giving — belonging to a House

Daemon and Sansa both have something that defines their belonging to House Stark.

Sansa’s wolf-bit and Daemon’ sword — which, do I have to go down the sexual metaphor about Sansa’ bosom and Daemon’ sword? — and both whilst speaking of heirs/reading to war to defend the claim to the crown gift the other half something that signifies their belonging to the House as well.

Rhaenyra’ necklace and Jon’s cloak. Both items which Rhaenyra and Jon puts on and basically keeps on for ever — like it was a fucking joke how long Jon kept the cloak on even on Dragonstone —also Rhaenyra necklace resembles a chain (chain of command) and same with Jon’s cloak stripes (which resemble a chain of command).

Rhaenyra confronts Daemon about her being named heir — and perhaps we’ll have something similar in the books for Jon and Sansa. Tho we have something akin to that when Arya confronts Sansa about Jon having the crown and Sansa liking the attention.

Yet both Sansa and Daemon stand strong in their loyalty to Jon above anyone else.

Protecting — destroying some of the earliest and greatest threats the other claim

Vaemond is one of the earliest threats to Rhaenyra rule, just as we know LF has been playing against Jon all along, yet both Sansa and Daemon defend the other half by killing the offender.

Arya and Bran serve as the Viserys in the comparison, because it’s Sansa who passes the sentence (as Arya herself points out) the same way as Daemon is the one who decided to kill Vaemond instead of letting Viserys order of having his tongue removed to be carried out.

Thus removing the earliest threat to the other one’.

Also, both Daemon and Sansa destroyed indirectly or directly another threat to Jon and Rhaenyra by killing Aemond and Daenerys who had the attitude (both of them) of destroying the Realm to take the Iron throne if needed. Aemond would not have taken Aegon’ claim from him but if Aegon had died of his wounds before Rhaenyra was executed, with Maelor and Jaehaerys dead Aemond stood the greatest threat to Rhaenyra. Daemon killed Aemond and Sansa plotted to have the truth about Daenerys uncovered and indirectly causing her death through Jon.

Supporting the other as ruler

Daemon becomes Rhaenyra supporter just as Sansa becomes Jon’s. Even as snubbed heirs they love the new heir and when the time comes they are there, by their side, defending them.

Also, never forget that Sansa/Daemon are always on the side of the consort when it comes to Jon/Rhaenyra whilst that is not true for other characters, who are always afforded place of importance, but not that of the consort.

When Corlys comments on Viserys lack of action in the Stepstones Daemon replies that he can speak of his brother how he well wishes but that is not the truth for others. Similarly Sansa defends Jon (“he’s our king, he’s doing what he thinks best”) even tho she shares the lords preoccupations.

Despite not always seeing eye to eye with Daemon, he is a trusted advisor to Rhaenyra who listens to him. In the same way, despite feeling the need of Sansa’ validation, Sansa is his trusted advisor to the point Jon entrusts the whole of the North to her.

So, yeah, I raise you the Daemyra is the Targaryen version of Jonsa, with Daemon and Rhaenyra being worse people than Jon and Sansa are combined. By ey, there’s a dark streak to the Starks not to be underestimated.

[la-pheacienne]

Oh so D x D were right in depicting Jaime x Cersei sex scene in the book as a clear cut rape scene. No, you say? What I remember of that scene in the book is that it was dub-con AT BEST, and this AFTER taking into account the author's own very obvious misogynistic bias (Watsonian vs Doylist perspective) and JC's specific dynamic of being the same person in two bodies and their lack of autonomy in the face of one another and their fucked up sick relationship in general. After taking into account all of these quite important factors, this book scene is still technically a dub-con sex scene, under a lenient reading which I'm willing to give to Jaime because again, I'm taking into account all these factors. If someone chooses to see this scene in the book as a clear cut rape scene, it is understandable to me.

D x D took a dub-con sex scene with a shit ton of underlying complexities underneath and turned it to a clear cut rape scene. Okay! Not The Best in my personal opinion! But still, Not So Atrocious! After all, how are you gonna depict on TV with absolute accuracy with the limited time you have something that is pretty complicated in the book and already kind of still comes across as dub-con or at even dangerously close to rape? Oh but I vaguely remember seeing posts in the lannister crowd about the show!scene being a depiction of "gratuitous violence" and "oversimplifying the dynamic". Am I wrong? I also agreed with the lannister crowd on this. I don't think GRRM intended to write Jaime as a rapist and Jaime comes across as a rapist in the GoT scene. I consider this to be a distortion of canon, despite the fact that in the book we had a real dub-con scene.

But suddently introducing out of the blue actual, very real physical domestic violence in a relationship that had NONE in the book is canonically plausible or even an improvement of canon, for the same crowd? And why is that? Because the couple has a huge age difference whereas JC were twins? So an abusive relationship or even rape is less plausible if the perpetrator is the same age as the victim? Who told you this? Daemyra is abusive because the uncle gave gifts to his underage niece? Because the couple is incestuous? In GRRM's work? You are seriously, unironically arguing that the above factors (age difference + incest) are meant to hint at a non consensual, abusive relationship in GRRM's universe? Are you for real?

Where is the acknowledgement of the author's problematic standards and worldview here? Where is the distinction between the Watsonian and the Doylist perspective here? Where is your indignation at the show runners turning up the gendered violence in ways that are not book canon? At least the JC scene was based on a real, already highly problematic sex scene. Now that the show runners came up with a brand new form of violence that did not exist in the book, what do you say? That it's fine because it's not as gratuitous as Sansa's rape arc? What about Alicent's rape arc? That's not gratuitous? Do you seriously believe that a rape arc is a necessary tool for adding complexity to a female antagonist? Really? What about Laena being burned alive? What about Aemma? I haven't seen a lot of talk about those. Are these not "gratuitous violence" in your book? Or you just don't really care right?

To sum it up. It is Problematic™ gratuitous violence hashtag male gaze only when 1) my perfect angelic fave (Sansa) is the victim or 2) when my fave is the perpetrator.

It is not gratuitous violence when 1) the narrative turns my fave from an antagonist to an underdog via rape or 2) when it makes characters I hate look worse than their book counterpart.

Hate to break this to you, this is not exactly a solid construction. The general criteria you use to identify gratuitous, non canonical violence need to be applied to all cases alike, not according to your own bias. The bias in this fandom is so shocking that it borders on gaslighting and I am looking specifically at book fans who have dragged GoT to hell and back for years and are now applauding this shitfest that is House of the Dragon for the same reasons they used to trash GoT.

I genuinely want nothing to do with that show anymore.

[darklinaforever]

Hiiii now that HotD is pretty much officially a complete nonsense (and i will be suprised if it somehow gets better) i wonder if you perhaps got any ideas on how the book should have been adapted (any casting or director changes) either way have a good day 😊

Yes, I too would be surprised if it improves too.

The only thing I want is for Aemond to be recognized as Kinslayer and for Daemyra to have a fresh start at the end of season 2.

Well your question is a perfect topic for a long article! Probably one about this at the end of August. 😉

[aella-targaryen]

okay. so. how the fuck does Daemon move on and FUCK Rhaenyra on the beach. THE FUCK. I just. Idk how to feel, man. Help me understand how I can possibly not feel disgusting watching him kissing or loving Rhaenyra after he fucking is loving / doting on a pregnant, then dead Laena. Help me. I love this couple daemyra is my fucking jam. but man idk... I don't want to feel ick

Something bigger than Love.

Hi dear anon ! 👋

Well, I think it was the same situation as with Rhaenyra and Crispin, right?

Rhaenyra felt abandoned by the man she had always loved. To get rid of her loneliness she decided to sleep with Crispin despite the fact that just a moment ago Daemon had abandoned her. In addition, she developed a sincere fondness and affection for Crispin as a close friend.

Sometimes when we face the abandonment of someone we love, we accept the love of another person who wants to be by our side and in return we give them our gratitude, affection and why not? sometimes also our love. I think that happened to Daemon in those 10 years with Laena.

I think Daemon didn't abandon Rhaenyra. He just let her go. He let her make her own decisions, even though none of them included him.

I think when Rhaenyra left him he felt so empty that he married the first person who was willing to be with him.

I think he never stopped loving her, no matter how much love he felt towards Laena for having accompanied him all those years and for having given him two daughters. In the back of his mind , he always knew that he would have preferred to be with Rhaenyra, but circumstances never allowed it. .

Now the circumstances allow it because this time Rhaenyra wants be by his side no matter what . I think that in those 10 years Daemon regretted letting Rhaenyra go so easily and he doesn't plan to make the same mistake again. This time he is going to take all the moments he can with her without caring about his pain or his regret anymore. I think that's what we'll see in that scene.

I feel like what the screenwriters are trying to tell us with the beach scene is the following:

Daemon will always love Laena as his wife and as the mother of his children.

But I think that for Daemon, Rhaenyra is much more than a woman who can be his wife and future mother of his children.

Their bond goes beyond romantic love.

She is the woman he has loved all his life first as his niece then as a woman, she is the favorite child of his beloved brother, she is his legitimate future queen by respect of his brother's last will , she is the blood of the dragon, she is a reflection of himself but improved, she is the only one who shares his same desires, she is the perfect person to accompany him on his mission to defend and glorify his house,she is his accomplice and his defender, she is the person he would never betray .

[lady-corrine]

I love love all the gifsets you are making!!! They are beautiful. And I couldn't agree more about Daemon and Rhaenyra's little boys😭 they are so precious to me and are so important to the story that I couldn't love them any less🥰. Also your hc about Visenya are perfect and something I have thought about before so seeing someone sharing interest in her and what could have been is really great!! Do you have any headcanons about Daemyra's courtship and marriage you would want to share?? (Book!canon wise 😂)

Hello! You are so very sweet to me, thank you 🥺

These were the first gifsets I ever made, and I hope to improve when I have the time, but it means so much to me to know that you enjoy them and that I don't make them in vain. It's also very kind of you to let me know, so thank you again. 🥰 Now that I know they are not so bad, I will try to make more.

Aegon, Viserys and Visenya are all so special to me. The first two because they were such precious boys, and despite all the trauma they went through, they really tried to heal themselves and to rebuilt the kingdom. And the fact that they did it together? Loving each other so much? Especially that phrase with them being constantly together as they had been as boys in Dragonstone, they were longing for their childhood so much. I don't even want to imagine how Viserys felt when Aegon died.

Visenya is something else in the sense that, I completely adore that original version with her surviving and marrying Viserys. It would have been absolutely perfect. She had so much potential to be a great character. I have so many headcanons concerning her and Viserys 😭

As for Daemyra headcanons, oh boy... I might forget to add some of them now, but if anything I will return to the post. So let's begin:

- they used to braid each other's hair. It started when Rhaenyra was little and pretended Daemon was one of her dolls. He would always indulge her.

- Daemon loved to comb her hair before bed (both during their courtship and in their marriage); and he was the only one Rhaenyra allowed to do it beside herself because only Daemon was as gentle with her hair as she wanted

- he used to sing her Valyrian lullabies, and he did the same for their babies

- Daemon used to tell her stories (this is book canon), and he continued to do so until the end of their lives;

- Every time Daemon was to go into one of his travels, baby Rhaenyra used to give him lists with what she wanted to bring her back

- when Rhaenyra was little they used to rub noses, and they kept that habit all their lives

- although during his marriage to Rhaenyra he completely settled down, he still used to travel across the Narrow Sea once or twice a year to 1) surprise Rhaenyra with gifts; 2) get all the things she wanted from the shopping lists she gave him

- Daemon was always there in her confinements and childbirths (again completely book canon);

- Daemon kept reciting love poems to her in their marriage. He didn't simply stop after their courtship.

- whenever they had a fight and Rhaenyra would be upset with him, he re-entered his courtship mode to make her forgive him (and she very much enjoy it)

- they had two courtships: the first one after he came back from the Stepstones, and the second one when Laena died and he went to Dragonstone; they didn't need a second courtship, as they both knew they loved each other and they will marry, but Rhaenyra gave him hints that she wanted and he indulged her

- believe it or not, Daemon actually missed courting Rhaenyra. He did not court Laena (they married in just two weeks), so he genuinely enjoyed being playful in his courtship with Rhaenyra

- Rhaenyra had some moments when she was insecure regarding her body after pregnancies, but Daemon always put her mind at ease

- it was only after asking for her hand and being exiled that Daemon realized how much he actually missed her and how much he had actually fallen for her

- he saw Rhaenyra as always meant for him and the woman he was always meant to be with. And the birth of Aegon only reinforced that belief in his mind

- they still went sailing, hawking and riding together, even in their marriage

- kind of my favourite headcanon about them: Daemon loved to design her jewelries (like Albert did with Victoria's tiaras)

- Rhaenyra loved for them to match - both in clothes, and in details (if she had certain jewelries, she chose Daemon's cufflinks to match, for example)

- even if they had a huge bed, they always ended up sleeping smooched into each other

- Daemon would never admit it, but he was jealous if Rhaenyra poured all of her attention to their children

- there could be one million chairs in one room, Rhaenyra would always sit on Daemon's lap - in their bedroom, with the children, at court, during feasts. The only exception was during councils and her public duties.

- Daemon had a thing for her hair and Rhaenyra for his hands. I don't know why, they just give that vibe

- he was always attentive of her and liked to pamper her (again book canon)

- Daemon adored her perfume, but Rhaenyra never told him what fragrances she used or where she had it made. He kept trying to guess, but he never got it right. She once joked she will tell him on his deathbed, and Daemon actually thought about it during his last days at Harrenhal

- during their first courtship she once lost a ring that Daemon took and added to a chain he wore when he was away from her. She only found out when Laena mentioned it without knowing whose ring it was.

And I have to stop somewhere, because we would be here all day. I have too many 😭 Thank you for your kind words, and I hope you have a wonderful day! 🥰

[sydalelys01]

FAKE ASS FUCK DAEMON AND DAEMYRA FANS

It's impressive how some supposed Daemon fans are incapable of seeing a good quality in that man. They describe him as the blackest being that has ever existed, but hey!!! The "qualities" that these people give him are of a gray character, he is a being that only exists to have sex, no matter how old he is, he can be a 5-year-old boy or a 50-year-old old man, his mind is only sex, sex …. ahhh and apart from this super "gray" character he rates women according to what they give him are mere products… but heyyyy daemon is a gray character, a good father… no way… he just gave points to his children according to who would give him the throne… because for these people daemon only loves the throne…. ahhh and his whore Liseny (because for her and her bastard he did steal an egg) but heyyyy they are the fucking standard bearers of the daemyra …. they better like it…. what would happen if they didn't?

because her beloved Harwin Strong is the best man, he is the updated and improved version of Daemon, because Rhaenyra likes the commanders of the City Watch, he is the version that does have feelings and is brown-haired, a real cuddly bear (because it's okay for him to be like that, daemon can't) but he is the perfect man, who did absolutely nothing against Rhaenyra (he did not damage her reputation or groom her because the one who did it was Daemon, not him, because Harwin is perfect and so much is said about him, in the book)… .but heyyyy they are daemyra shippers….

And if you don't think like that, you are wrong, you read the book wrong, because their word is law. They do know what the characters were like, in fact, they know more than George…. locate yourselves…

Anyway, among the fans of the shitty show, these supposed flag bearers of the Daemyra, the green ones, the fans of the non-existent trio, hahahaha and lately I have had flag bearers of Nettles….. there is no peace in this fandom

[heartfeltletters-written]

20 questions for writers tag game!

tagged by @widebrimmedhatsblog (thank you so much!!)

Total number of AO3 works

Six 

Total AO3 word count

150,968

Fandoms I’ve written in

Empyrean, Harry Potter and One direction

Top 5 fics by kudos

we never knew peace; here at your doorway; the ghost scar; when the flames burned green the dragons danced; between me and louis (this fic is a fever dream I do not remember it lmao)

Do I respond to comments? 

I always do !! or at least i try my best. I absolutely love receiving comments it's my motivation to keep sharing my writing tbh the least I can do is answer my readers !! i reread the comments an obscene amount of times so yeah I always answer

What has the angstiest ending? 

when the flames burned green the dragons danced. i mean it is inspired by blood & cheese of hotd so obviously its very very angsty and sad and just tragic.

What has the happiest ending? 

idk about happy fics, since i haven't finished my big fics but maybe here at your doorway has the happiest ending.

Have I received hate? 

Yes both in HP fandom and in the Empyrean (although I have to say this fandom is much more chill) and it's awful lmao. stopped me from writing for a few months and it was just so ??? because it's always hate about how I handle my characters and my plot and just ... omg go write your own fic then ?? But yeah if you have nothing nice to say then don't say it

Do I write smut? And what kind? 

I have written smut but most of it isn't published lmao. I write all kinds of smut like idk what u mean by that lmao. kinky, soft like idk

Do I write crossovers? 

I haven't written any !!

Have I ever had a fic stolen? 

Nope! and thank god for that

Have I ever had a fic translated?

Nope! My fics are not worthy of a translation lmao

Have I ever co written a fic? 

Yes I have !! but tbh we were both on the verge of sleep when we did it it was like 3am and I remember almost nothing of the process except it was so much fun. 

What is my all time favorite ship? 

According to Ao3 its Daemyra and Riorgail but i will always have a very special place in my heart for both hinny and jily. like those are my first loves fr and what got me into fanfiction

A WIP I’ll never finish?

I have a few thousand words of a riorgail canon divergence au where violet figures out venin are real after reading the note from her dad and confronts xaden about it. i started writing it before iron flame came out but at this point I don't think I'll ever finish it lmao.

Writing strengths? 

I get a lot of comments saying I write trauma responses really well (what does that say about me lmao) and also characterizations which is baffling bc I've always thought that was one of my weaknesses so I'm really happy.

Writing weaknesses?

I really struggle with writing dialogue i overthink it too much sometimes trying really hard to not sound cringy, Sally Rooney has helped a lot with that btw !! and I would also say I sometimes forget what I wrote in previous chapters so it can be hard to follow along some plots I introduced. I think I have the same problem as GRRM I want to create so many storylines and lore that I sometimes lose myself and idk what to do with so much information but oh well

Do I like foreign language dialogue? 

I do! Especially when i speak the language the character is speaking lmao. but one thing that annoys me is pronunciations, like for example hangrid and fleur like omg just write it in English or make her speak french !! but other than that I do love it. i don't think I'll ever write it tho

First fandom I wrote for? 

One direction (i was 15 guys and deep into the larry lore)

Favorite fic I’ve written? 

We never knew peace definitely. That's my baby, i work so hard on it and I think it's coming together much better than I expected. My writing has improved a lot and I think that fic is the prime example of that. I also really like what I've done with both violet and xaden in there.

I'd like to tag: @creative-girl; (and i feel like every other writer i know has done this already so yeah if u haven't feel free to)

[snowblack-charcoalwhite]

Hello.

One question: do you think we'll see problematic aspects of the relationships between TB members (aside from Daemyra), namely between Rhaenyra and Baela and Rhaena on one side and between Daemon and Jace on the other? It's super weird to me that show!Baela seems to be for Rhaenyra the same what s8 Jon was for Daenerys, "she is our queen, we have to fight those traitors for our queen" (they deleted this scene between Baela and Rhaenys, but that's obviously the direction they are planning to take) even though Rhaenyra married her father so soon after her mother's death and after her uncle "died" in suspicious circumstances? Same goes for Rhaena, even more so, because she is shown to be more emotional and ignored by Daemon. And we are supposed to believe that everything is just fine between those girls and their father and stepmother? It's just lazy writing imo. Their instant friendship with the Strong boys in ep 7 was also badly conceived since they changed things from the book and the children didn't really know each other before Driftmark. As for Jace and Daemon, they hinted at something in ep 10, but who knows if they are planning to actually make it the plot point. Anyway, since the writers are so eager to show how terrible and untrustworthy as a family the greens are (they are even likely to divide TG in order to accomplish this), it would be logical to do something similar with TB. The possibilities are right there. Also, this is not just the "team" thing, but something that seriously would improve storylines and character arcs by making them more realistic and believable. However, I'm not very hopeful.

Good day/night to you!

For now the only rift within TB I can see the show introducing is one between Daemon and, well, pretty much everyone else (Jacaerys included). For the rest of the TB gang their desire (or at least willingness) to fight for the one they consider the rightful queen is one of their defining character traits (for some of them - almost the only one). Even if Jace, Baela and Rhaena get some individual development this season, I still don't think the writers will take this uniting factor out of the equation. Some other cause for the conflict could be added instead, one not involving questions of loyalty to Rhaenyra, a more personal one: something to do with Sara Snow (if she is in the show at all) or anything else. But judging by the promo I don't really see this happening.

While I am Team Green and infinitely more interested in the Green characters (mainly Aemond and Aegon), I still would like to see every one of them, those from TB included, developed properly - at least for the sake of balanced storytelling. But as of now I'm not very hopeful either.

[horizon-verizon]

Where is the proof of all this ?! Literally, it’s based on nothing !

This is the same person who will come and tell you that Daemyra is a bad / grooming relationship and not romantic ! WTF ?!

Also, thinking that the relationship was good just because there is a scene where Alys intervenes and Aemond listens to her is not even proof of love...

Are these people aware that this is typical of this kind of scenario ?

A woman who finds herself sexually enslaved during a war, trying to improve her situation by gaining the trust of the one who keeps her prisoner and then betraying him ?

I'm so tired...

Yes, well I have posts about these two and the ideas here, mainly me refuting them all. Under the tag of "alys and aemond".

[grandlovescheme]

daemyra stalker au, but with a twist: that it is just a misunderstanding?

rhaenyra was followed but, at the beginning, it all points to daemon, but actually, he’s keeping an eye on her, while the real stalker is still around?

Oh boy, not Rhaenyra having *two* stalkers 💀 what has she done to deserve that? 🤣 Poor girl, but one of them is at least an improvement of the other, that's for sure. Interesting idea! I love all these different takes ❤️ I'm already plotting and structuring my stalker AU though, so I don't think I can/wanna change much about it, but maybe someone else will take the idea?

I'd be thrilled to read more stalker AUs from other Daemyra fans 🔥❤️

Thank you for your ask lovely ❤️❤️

[daensa]

What is the show doing wrong? I was pleasantly suprised when I started hotd, but now it's 👎

generally speaking, for me there has been 2 major issues: (1) the pacing and (2) the unbalanced sides.

(1) the show has had 8 eps that tried to cover 20 years worth of story. that's an insane amount of time to squish into one season. the pacing has been suffering a lot trying to make so much happen in such little time, which has hurt every single character in the show.

i have mentioned before that i think this season should have been split into two. the end of the season should have been with rhaenyra marrying laenor: allowing a good chunk of time to develop the velaryons (especially laena and laenor who barely got screentime), more of rhae royce, more of viserys and daemon, the night of aegon's birth and how that changed court for rhaenyra, and just overall explored all the characters without rushing

then s2 could have been stretched out to end with u know viserys dies + green council + shit hits the fan. it would have given time to develop all the green and black kids, establish relationships between each other, show daemon/laena and rhaenyra/harwin, and the development of daemyra through a longer period of time than just. 12 hours after a funeral

(2) i also think the show struggled to be the filled with 'grey characters' like it promised. i have seen some people say that they don't think alicent has been treated with respect, not giving her and the greens a lot of 'sympathetic' moments. while i think its true for her children, i think alicent has been balanced enough and the people failing to sympathize with her are crazy stans who could see go through basically anything on screen and still call it justice for the sake of stanning.

i think the bigger issue comes from the blacks side, which has been unbalanced in terms of 'greyness' compared to the greens. the show is very clearly raising rhaenyra as the protagonist and gave her the 21st century period drama lead girlboss treatment - rhaenyra reflects opinions and morals of our modern understanding that look out of place in a medieval inspired show (i could rant about this for days alone). her actions become way more likeable for the general audience, and make it so she is someone they can cheer for. it's a weird choice since they were so proud of making a 'grey show' and now it feels like house of the blacks, and the greens just looks like the only evil assholes. it's sad really. bc the blacks begin to fall as boring compared to the greens, who allowerd to stir shit and plot and scheme, which is way more fun to watch.

i think a lot could have worked better with a slower pacing. one of the most wtf moments for me so far was laenor leaving, which only had a few mins of screentime to be resolved. i think in a slower paced show, that could have been a separate eps from laena's funeral. as daemon and rhaenyra reconnect, they begin to plot how they could come to get married. i think the show was settled on making laenor live to avoid the 'kill your gays' accusation, so i am would forgive them to try to write him off instead. but then... make it realistic. why would laenor leave his mourning family and children he loves? make rhaenyra and daemon force his hand, show a darker side of her and her love for daemon. show them having to deal with the fact they killed an innocent man to take laenor's place, that they had to look for a man who looked like him in the streets to pass as his corpse. and show laenor struggling. show him struggling being forced to leave his family.

that's just one example. but there is much more that could have been improved in the show if they. had more time to make it greyer.

[lordramsaybolton]

I remember you from years ago welcome back. :P I mean this with good inteentions but how you are shipping an uncle niece pair while your trauma surrounds this? Is this not bad for your mental health? Please no hate sorry if I offend with this question I seek to understand and I hope your situation comes to improve

First of all thank you for the well wishes and return welcome.

My answer is just...it's complicated, basically. Firstly, I do like the characters and their dynamic in their own right--it's not just a trauma cope or whatever. But I'm sure my experiences have affected the characters and pairings I am drawn to--Daemyra and others--though not everything I focus on is directly related to my life.

Tbh parts of HOTD really triggered me for this reason, so maybe it's NOT a great idea to focus on it as much as I am, though it's better than the previous obsessions I was focused on, and I can’t really control these consuming obsessions I get and have my whole life.

Overall I think sometimes things that trigger us cause other powerful emotions in us because everything's all mixed up in our minds. Certain triggers just hit the floodgates and the emotions are not even clearly defined, just A Lot--and that rush of feeling can arouse all sorts of thoughts and lead to fixations.

I'm kinda just rambling here, I don't know if any of this makes sense--I don't want to presume whether or not you are a survivor of abuse yourself, but sometimes the crosswiring gets a bit weird.

tl;dr Everyone deals with shit in different ways, and also I'm just into some weird shit for various reasons.

Plus w/ Daemon, his character was the one that stood out/captivated me from the start and made me want to keep watching, so I was probably going to end up focusing on him and his relationships anyway.

i didnt proofread this lol

[darklinaforever]

Why are you all so serious when it comes to imaginary characters? This works for both teams btw. It's okay to love books, characters, and so on, but you act like we live in real Westeros and choose who will rule us. Or as if the Targaryens are your real relatives during a real war. For God's sake. The fact that people love the blacks does not give them any moral superiority. The fact that people love the greens doesn't make them immoral or anything.

In fact, you really don't read any of my posts, and are you really content with the fact that I'm team Blacks and loving Daemyra to spit your venom in anonymous messages in fact ?! It’s just crazy at this point. You look like a bunch of weirdos.

I never claimed to be morally better, or that people who liked the Greens were immoral. Liking the Greens doesn't make you immoral. They are good villains, and most people, including me, like good villains. I'm literally a fan of the real Alicent in the book. She's a great villain that I love to hate.

And for your information, I also never said that Team Blacks were morally superior people. My god, I even once had an argument with a pro team Blacks and pro Daemyra person who hated the Velaryon children and the fact that they were illegitimate ! I never decreed that those who liked the black team were 100% good people VS those who liked the greens as bad ! Where does this bullshit come from ?!

On the other hand, what I denounce are those who claim that the Greens are not villains / antagonists. When that's literally what they are. This is their narrative function. They are not morally gray characters, anti-heroes or worse yet, misunderstood virtuous characters as some like to claim. Once again, there is no problem with liking Team Greens, but there is a problem with believing that they are justified in the story for doing what they do and that they are anything other than villains / antagonists. If you read Fire and Blood and end up being Team Greens at face value, you either have questionable beliefs or you simply have significant problems with reading comprehension (and I hope this is generally the second case for the ASOIAF and Fire and Blood community). The Greens are literally a bunch of misogynists fighting for patriarchal traditions, are blood purists and mostly rapists like Aegon II and Aemond.

The Blacks team is not perfect. Certainly, there are noble people among them, but also and above all morally ambiguous characters. However, they are not the antagonists and villains of the story. They are the protagonists. Team Blacks fights for a woman's right to ascend the throne. About keeping your promises and oaths. And even if it is not for feminist purposes, Rhaenyra on the throne would have given a precedent for women to subsequently also have the right to power. In short, Rhaenyra on the throne would have set a precedent to probably improve the situation of women in Westeros in the lines of succession. To be Team Greens in the first degree is in fact to deny power to women and change in a society. That's what it implies narratively.

It's the same thing for those trying to say they are neutral, trying to make people believe that the two teams are on the same level, probably to avoid feeling guilty for loving the Greens beyond simple villains, refusing to see them as such. To speak of being neutral is to deny that the Blacks are fighting for a much nobler cause overall than the Greens. Once again, the Blacks are fighting for a woman's right to the throne and respecting her words and oaths. While the Greens are literally treated misogynists and usurpers who fight for patriarchal tradition... Just like the simple fact that the number of war crimes are not at all equivalent depending on the team.

It's not the same thing. These are simple facts.

The narrative purpose of GRRM's for the Rhaneyra character is simple. She was usurped because she was a woman. By misogyny. And people who are first degree team greens or neutral have this great tendency to deny it. Simply because otherwise, they couldn't justify defending the greens.

Reading Fire and Blood and ending up at first level being team greens or neutral, once again demonstrates a huge reading comprehension problem. GRRM didn't write this story thinking that the Greens were right or that both teams were on the same level, otherwise, the Greens wouldn't get karmic punishment.

I realize that everyone can see what they want in a fictional work, but there are limits to stupid interpretation. Fire and Blood is very clear that the Greens are the villains / antagonists with very bad motivations, going against the law itself. Because yes, the word of the king is the law. Supporting the Greens or being neutral at first glance, without seeing them as villains / antagonists, is at this stage being willfully blind, unless once again you have questionable values ​​or quite simply very, very poor reading comprehension, which you should be worried about.

The excuse of "it's fiction, so we can think what we want, it doesn't matter" is bullshit. An excuse for not thinking about the fiction you consume. This is proof of intellectual laziness. Do you really think GRRM wouldn't want you to think about his work ?

It's a naive and simplistic way of thinking, designed to justify supporting a misogynistic team, wishing to maintain patriarchal traditions. Once again, either it comes from your own problematic morality that you do not accept, or it is simply not having reading comprehension and supporting the fact of not thinking about what you consume in order to avoid not be aware of the problematic things about what you love in order to simply not give yourself a bad conscience.

Again, there is nothing immoral about liking the Greens. Most people like a good villain / antagonist. I've always said it. On the other hand, yes, it is problematic, to pretend that the Greens are not villains / antagonists, then trying to make them pass for more complex characters than they are, even anti-heroes, or worse, downright misunderstood characters who would be morally superior to the Blacks team. That's always what I talk about. Nothing more. And if this truth bothers you, you should question yourself...

Reflecting on the fiction we consume is not stupid. That should be the basis. And I won't apologize for thinking about what I consume.

And it's still cheeky to come and tell me that I'm lecturing people when it's me that people come to harass with private messages to wrongly explain to me that I romanticize grooming, that I'm a Bitch who doesn't understand anything about the characters I'm talking about, that I should be ashamed, close my tumblr, that Daemon Targaryen is the real rapist from Fire and Blood and that Aegon II is just a normal prince of his time doing his best. Ironically, it's the Greens and Neutral team who always come to me to spew their superior morality to apparently understand that poor little Aegon II is a complex and tragic character while Daemon is the real monster of the story and that the real The goal of Fire and Blood is to choose your favorite war criminal. Lol. That couldn't be further from the truth, and it's complete bullshit. Who once again tries to impose moral superiority on others ? (And again, I'm also entitled to this for liking Kylo Ren / Ben Solo and the Darkling) I think you're clearly talking to the wrong person in terms of promulgating moral oaths.

Love what you love. Just be aware of what it is and think about it. That's all I'm saying.

Once again, I have nothing against those who like the Greens. I have a problem with those who try to make people believe that they are not the villains / antagonists that GRRM made them out to be in the story. To try to make them appear as complex characters, anti-heroes, misunderstood characters who would have reasons just to act as they do. Worse still, to come and tell me that their favorite characters are morally superior to those of the Blacks team or even on an equal footing. Things that are completely false. And if these simple truths bother you that much, don't read my tumblr ! It's simple to do, isn't it ?

At this point of stupidity, I'm going to end up losing my faith in humanity...

@aleksanderscult

[sweetestpopcorn]

What are your thoughts on Jaehaerys and Alysanne?

Personally, I think Jae was a not as good as portrayed man/ruler. Master's were on his payroll given what we read in fire and blood. Poor Alysanne was always a secondary monarch and he refused to hear her at the worst moments. The things we've read in f&b about Jae that we're so horrible yet passed off as great. That Barth was so in love with him, like dude his wife left him 3 times for legit reasons and here is Barth just blowing bubbles. Also interesting is that all their children died except the ones away from them. Also I won't ever like Jaehaerys for making Otto hand of king.

Daemon was far better than Jae and daemyra rules, always.

Hi there 🤗 and sorry for the delay (this is going to turn into my catch phrase or something).

I think part of me agrees and the other part disagrees about Jaeherys.

I definitely think the fat man tries to sell Jaehaerys and Alysanne off as these perfect rulers/people and while they do have a lot of good things about them and they did a LOT of good to Westeros, I do think they are far from being exempt from criticism and maybe not as "light" as George thinks they are.

While Jaehaerys does get a lot of heat I do think he came into power in very hard circumstances and he handled most of his hardships in life quite well, doing a lot to improve the lives of the people of Westeros. Was he misogynistic? Yep, but so was pretty much everyone - especially men in Westeros - so I cannot really fault him too much there. And on that account I don't even think he was that bad tbh.

For instance, neither his daughter Daenerys nor his daughter Alyssa seemed to be particularly fond of female activities (e.g., both like to play with swords; both had more of a more outgoing rowdy personality not very fit for a princess). Yet in no instance do we see Jaehaerys trying to force them to be more feminine or forbidding them to play with their brothers or even complaining about them. Yes he did want all of his daughters married, but was that truly so different from what other fathers and men of Westeros - and even in our day and age - wanted? I don't think so.

I also give him a lot of credit to have waited to consummate his (first) marriage with Alysanne because he thought she was too young. Especially since at the time he was a teenage boy with his hormones raging (I assume XD). Here from what I have seen in the asoiaf universe, he was the exception not the rule, and we have a LOT of other examples where men did no such thing (e.g., Viserys with Aemma, Aegon II with Helaena, later Aerys II with Rhaella... these are just a few at the top of my head but I am sure there are a lot more examples).

And here I will call Alysanne to the stand because a lot of the things she blamed Jaehaerys for are rich in this popcorn's opinion.

Let's begin with the whole man versus woman ruler. So, for Alysanne a woman could rule just as well as a man, and primogeniture should determine who comes next in the line of succession... funny then that she did not speak in favor of her sister Rhaena to become queen, same with her niece Aerea, since according to what Alysanne believed, they would come before Jaehaerys in the line of succession, and before her children by him. 

She seemed to have amnesia though, because then she pushed for her daughter Daenerys to be queen, and later for her granddaughter Rhaenys... very convenient in my humble opinion that she did this while ignoring her sister and niece.

Sex didn't matter according to Alysanne you see... when it was her line called into question.

Sorry but on this issue my eyebrow goes higher at Alysanne than it does at Jaehaerys. I think one of the traits I have less patience for is hypocrisy and Alysanne, you just blew my f_cking mind.

Not to mention that when the issue was between Viserys and Rhaenys, Jaehaerys didn't decide in his grandson's favour. Instead he called for a great council and let the lords of Westeros decide this matter. And here I give him several points. This was the right thing to do in my opinion. Was the right person chosen? I honestly don't know because while Walserys sucked we don't have any in-text evidence of Rhaenys as a ruler/manager of anything, so I don't know if she would have been better or not. I can speculate sure, but I will be basing most on headcanons not on actual canon. And another thing, in democracy is the right person always chosen? Nope, but I do believe it is the best system we have so far. 

Another reason why Alysanne quarrelled with Jaehaerys was the issue with Daella, blaming him for her death. Several things to unpack here.

First, Daella was not marrying/getting pregnant young by asoiaf standards. She was eighteen when she died, I recall, and we have a lot of examples of women becoming mothers at seventeen (e.g., Rhaena, Rhaenys tqwnw, Rhaenyra, Alyssa...), and much younger as well (e.g., Aemma, Helaena, Rhaella, Daenerys, Naerys...). Second, as for her constitution, not only was that not unique - e.g., Dany and Naerys and Aemma - but women in House Targaryen seemed to have a 70% chance (I pulled this number from my backside but it's high) of dying in labour either they were more robust, or thinner, two examples at the top of my head of women not built small/thin but who still died in labour would be Alyssa and Laena.

I don't honestly think it was fair of Alysanne to blame Jaehaerys and the only thing I can side with her on was that there was no need to push Daella to be married if she didn't wanted to. But... at the same time it was what most fathers did, and in Jaehaerys's defense he did allow Daella to choose who she wanted, and she did seem to be quite happy in the Vale with Lord Rodrik Arryn.

And then, to make Alysanne's arguments even richer, we have her pushing for Viserra to be married and not even allowing her to choose who she wanted - unlike what her sisters were allowed to do. And sorry Aly, I am not giving you a pass on this one. Your behaviour was inexcusable.

But wait! There’s more!

Funny that Alysanne was so outraged with Daella getting married at 16/17 and becoming a mother at 18, but crickets were heard about her granddaughter - Daella’s own daughter *gasp* - Aemma Arryn being married to Viserys at 11 (!!!) and bedded at 13 (!!!). Where was your outrage then Alysanne? Ah yes in the same place where the outrage at Rhaena and Aerea being ignored was, gotcha girl 😊

I know it might seem I don’t like Alysanne but I do. I just don’t let anyone escape with their bullsh_on my watch. This all being said and I do love Alysanne, she did a lot for the women and men of Westeros, and there’s a lot to like about her. 

My heart went out to her suffering and I cried genuine tears when she mentioned how the Mother loved her children more than she did because she had taken so many of them.

Regarding Saera I was not as shocked as most people might have been to be completely honest. I try to put myself in Jaehaerys's shoes and if my daughter/son told me like "Oh yeah I gave my V card to three dudes/chicks, what about it?". Hum... this would raise freaking too many red flags on the spot.

I would not insult them - much less call them a whore - and I would mostly blame myself for it like yep... on a scale of 0 to 10 I failed an 11 with this child. At the same time, considering the universe these characters lived in I mean... what else would people want Jaehaerys to do? Honestly I even give him points for not beating her. This was NOT a kind universe to women.

Do I think he was too cold and went overboard? Yes absolutely. If he was a man of the XXI century would I find his behaviour disgusting? Absolutely yes. But he wasn't. And I am judging him according to his own universe not mine.

Final thought on this: Bad, but, in my view, nothing that makes him a monster or would make me lose my slept at night. I live in a fairly conservative country and let me tell you a lot of grandfathers/fathers I have known would have done much worse than Jaehaerys did - I am not saying it's right, it's not! Nevertheless, looking at the overall context it's not like he was behaving in an odd way or was being too cruel by his society’s norms.

All of this said and the thing I was most disgusted about concerning Jaehaerys was his take on the First Night, and in no small part was this because of his grade A+ hypocrisy. So, he sees no problem with it... but if it was another man taking Alysanne’s V card there would be an issue? This to me is some serious sh_t, because while he does realize this is wrong he’s very #notmyproblem about it. He does listen to Alysanne in the end but.. I mean... come on...

I really can’t stand people being hypocrites. Like own your sh_t, people.

Now, comparing him to Daemon, I still think Jaehaerys was miles (many miles) ahead of Daemon and he was a far better ruler/person overall.

In my opinion the issue is just how the two are presented to us that actually makes Jaehaerys look worse, and Daemon look better. 

When we are told about Jaehaerys we are told we are about to read about a man who was so wise, so good, #bestkingevah, so then when he falls short, our expectations aren’t fulfilled and we get angry. With Daemon on the other hand, there’s no hiding who he was. The narrator tells us we are about to read about a f_cking douchebag I mean he’s called the Rogue Prince... the bar is low so we aren’t expecting much and maybe we get to the end like “Well this wasn’t so bad...”

If the issue, however, is who of the two is more interesting, to me 100% it’s Daemon. And he’s the one who entertains me the more as well and who in my opinion is more memorable. But then again he’s maybe in the top 5 favourite characters ever so I am biased af XD 

Final thoughts, I laughed so much when you said the maesters were on his payroll so thank you XD and I mean... you are 1000% right, they were, and I do admit maybe he comes off as so good because of it. Then again, the Greens show that there was just so much you could do when you had nothing to work with 😔😌 And about Otto, that we will never forgive Jaehaerys for. ✊✊✊✊✊✊

And YES DAEMYRA 4 EVER best and hottest ship ever ❤❤❤ #haterscry 

All the best to you, Anon ❤😘 this was a really fun ask!

PS: I don’t mean to fat shame GRRM, but he did create Lysa after an ex-girlfriend, kills off almost every woman in labour, allowed them to ruin Dany, and is selling off to H*O so that grants everyone the right to refer to him as the fat man/the old man. Get f_cked, George.