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cardentist · 2 years ago

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well ! I'm making this post to make a point.

for context, I made this post [Link] earlier, wherein I spoke first about my frustrations with cis people not considering the trans perspective, and Second about my frustrations with me doing so immediately being framed as an attack on trans women specifically Because my frustrations were tied to me being a trans man.

(I do Also consider myself trans fem, but that wasn't particularly relevant to the original post, so I didn't mention it at the time).

this was then followed by an interaction in dms wherein the quiet part was spoken out loud.

1: that trans men Are Not equal to trans women, and that it is taken as an attack on trans women to present them as such (it is not).

2: that the idea that any individual trans man could face harm within the trans community from any other individual is, itself, transmisogynistic because it implies that trans women are capable of oppressing trans men (it does not).

3: that it is Impossible for any individual trans woman to ever speak over any individual trans man, because trans women are women and trans men are men (it is not).

4: that trans women possess some Secret Additional Layer of oppression that no trans man could ever match up to no matter what their individual experiences are, even when that trans man is Also a trans woman (they do not).

5: and by extension, that every single individual trans woman has it worse than every individual trans man in every situation (theoretical or real) no matter what, thus making anything that a trans man experiences Lesser Than by default (do I even need to say anything).

I am going to put the entire conversation (censored) under readmore, but I need it to be understood that This Is Not Hyperbole.

when I say that trans men are singled out and attacked for the simple act of having a voice This Is What I Mean. it is considered by some people to be Inherently Transgressive, Inherently Bigoted, for trans men to consider themselves equals. for trans men to consider their experiences equal.

and so, it is Assumed by Default that a trans man speaking on his own experiences is harmful to trans women Regardless of whether trans women are being spoken on or not.

not everyone thinks this way of course (and the people who Do think this way aren't dictated by gender, this isn't trans mascs vs trans fems this is about bigotry, which anyone is capable of)

but a Significant Enough proportion of people Do, and people don't recognize or realize this fact.

if you feel that I am being hyperbolic, if you've never been exposed to this way of thinking before, if you find yourself Agreeing with any of the points I have listed above, I do suggest reading through this conversation and the posts linked to it.

content warning for a brief non-graphic mention of rape/csa within the linked posts and this conversation.

Me: I know odds are you don't want to hear it, and that's fine you can ignore this message entirely if you'd like. but I Do think you'd better understand what my perspective is if you were to read my response

I do think I Understand where your perspective is coming from, and I get it on an emotional level. but there's a disconnect here where intent is assumed when it doesn't need to be [Screenshot of tags written by anonymous that reads: transandbros (transandrophobia + bros) they think that they can’t be the most privileged in a group because they think trans women have privilege over them. End Transcription]

I am trans masc yes, I am also trans fem, and I don't enjoy assumptions like this being made about me.

Anonymous: i said trans women as in TMA [transmisogyny affected] people. not transmasc or tranfem which can be used by tme [transmisogyny exempt] and tma [transmisogyny affected] trans people

Me: like I said in my response, I want to go on testosterone, physically transition, and then present femininely. I want things like an audibly deep voice, facial hair, a square jaw. I also want to keep my breasts, I want long hair and feminine features, I want to dress femininely and be read as a feminine And masculine person

I also live in mississippi.

now do you think that if I do that I will walk outside and never ever experience transmisogyny.

Anonymous: also trans men oppress trans women and benefit from transmisogyny. i say this as someone who benefits from transmisogyny as well. i oppress trans women. i experience misdirected transmisogyny as someone w [with] facial hair and a low voice and long hair and tites. And when people in and out of my community learn about my gender and transition, much of tht [the] MISDIRECTED transmisogyny disapears[disappears]. my experience is better in certain situations than it would be for a similar trans women. if tht [that] is a statement you cannot aggree [agree] with than [then] there is nothing to discuss here

there is no way for a trans women to speak over a trans women [I think they meant trans men?] if they are otherwise on [a] similar playing field (white, abled, class, religion etc) thats not what speaking over means. thats like cis men thinking cis women are dominating the conversation when they make up even 30% of the conversation

Me: the post I was responding to was written by a cis person, I asked people to consider the trans experience and spoke about how it was frustrating that people Don't do that. /I/ was the trans person speaking to a cis person, and then it was decided after the fact that I was somehow stepping on trans women's toes by doing so.

Anonymous: okay great. shouldve kept that context than maybe you wouldnt have also revealed u [you] think trans women can oppress trans men

Me: this is why I suggested you read my response, because I don't believe that and I also explained explicitly why I didn't include the username of the original poster (though part of it, of course, is that I didn't want anyone to harass the op)

Anonymous: i did read ur [your] response thats how i know you think trans women oppress trans men as equally as trans men oppress trans women

Me: that's not really how oppression works? I believe that trans people are able to Hurt Each Other, because all people as individuals are capable of harming each other as individuals. this is not the same thing as oppression, oppression is a systemic power structure that puts one group above another.

what I've said is that I believe trans people are equals, and you think this is a bad thing?

I didn't even say that trans people are equals In The World As A Whole (though I do believe that), I said they're equals Specifically Within The Trans Community made by and for trans people.

Anonymous: and i wholeheartedly disagree with that! its incredibly clear as a tme [transmisogyny exempt] trans butch lesbian in community with trans women, its incredibly easy to see how tme [transmisogyny exempt] people are privileged over tma [transmisogyny affected] people

including in lgbt and trans specific spaces!!!

Me: so your point is that from Your perspective you have seen the way that people within queer and trans spaces have made you feel othered and hurt people for being trans fem.

my point is that This Is True, I have seen this as well. but I have Also seen people take that exact same energy and point it at other trans people. I have personally been othered and torn down both for being trans masc And for being nonbinary at different points in time.

I am telling you that you are right, but that people need to be more open to other people's perspectives to get a clearer picture on the over all situation.

because when we look at Everyone is saying, the truth seems to be that All trans people are torn down for who they are.

why is that a bad thing? what does it hurt to consider that I have also experienced something similar to you?

I Really hope that your point isn't that I am privileged compared to other trans fems after I spoke in depth about being raped by a man and how that's affected me for the rest of my life

Anonymous: no im litterally [literally] saying that amab trans fems and trans women experience another layer of oppression from afab trans people. i litterally [literally] told you i am also an afab transmasc person. why do you transandrophobia truthers litterally [literally] always jump to trauma dumping ! if you want to put it in those terms, you are privileged in comparison to amab transpeople who actually have higher rates of sexual abuse and rape. you are not more privileged than cis people who experience lower rates rape and sexual abuse.

and fuck u for reading me call myself a butch lesbian and calling me transfem so it suits ur argument

Me: 1: I'm sorry I called you trans fem when that isn't how you identify, I thought you'd explained to me that you were tme trans fem like you consider me to be. we're both upset and this isn't really the best medium to hold a conversation with, so it's easy to word things in a way that can be misinterpreted as well as misinterpret things that would be clearer if you had more time to sit on and absorb the information.

I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, but I am frustrated with you continuously jumping to the most negative reading of my intentions possible.

to rephrase my point:

"so your point is that from Your perspective you have seen the way that people within queer and trans spaces have othered and hurt people for being trans fem."

followed by the rest of it

2: that's not actually true, there are a few studies that have found that trans mascs over all face similar (and at points higher) rates of sexual abuse to trans women.

(this is a link to a tumblr post, but that tumblr post is a link to a study, I've included This link because it has easily accessible pictures of the relevant graphs).

though coincidentally I've recently made a post that relevant to this exact topic

the point I made there (and the point I'm going to make here) is that saying "This minority group experiences This Thing less than That minority group" isn't useful when speaking to individuals because those individuals have still experienced trauma.

individual people Are Not every statistic about their minority group, and they cannot have their Experienced compared based on those statistics

because Experiences are not dictated by statics. and treating people as if their experiences don't matter because their experiences don't match the statistics is cruel.

the other point being, of course, that using studies like this to try to hard measure the Amount Of Oppression between different minority groups is silly.

these are self reported with relatively small sample sizes of specific locations at a specific time. they're Important to prove that there is a problem, but there has never and will never be a measure of the experiences of every trans man vs every trans woman that we can then calculate and compare.

I'm sure there Are some statistics out there that show trans women with a marginal increase of sexual abuse compared to trans men, just like there are some statistics out there that show the opposite.

what this tells us is not that one group Inherently has it worse than the other, it tells us that trans people experience sexual assault, and that's a problem that needs to be addressed.

3: I find it incredibly distasteful to insist over and over again that someone is not oppressed, that they are privileged, that they haven't been hurt in a meaningful way. and Then refer to them speaking about their lived experiences as "trauma dumping"

if you can't handle frank discussions on the trauma and oppression that trans people experience on a day to day basis then you really shouldn't be commenting on that trauma.

[End conversation]

screenshots of the full conversation can be found here: [Link] I would've made a video to fully prove that these aren't doctored, but I don't want to out the person I was speaking to. they don't deserve harassment

#discourse #transandrophobia #lateral aggression #trans unity #why do I reach out to people when I know there's a possibility of getting responses like this?#because sometimes people aren't malicious and can be reached #and that's true often enough to I still choose to engage with people from time to time #also I'm green because luigi colors and anonymous is red because you can't have luigi colors without mario colors #granted mario would not say this

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