#Jiang Cheng is a bitch and I like him so much

[cerusee]

Fight me! I dare you!

[chalkrevelations]

Together, they would have been unstoppable, and that's why it was necessary for Jin Guangshan and Jin Guangyao to break them apart.

I am genuinely obsessed with how jiang cheng goes from “youngest sect leader in an age with a weak, newly rebuilt sect who can’t risk upsetting the jin sect” to “if you’re going to offend someone, make sure you don’t offend the jiang sect or sandu shengshou”

[qiu-yan]

once again, instead of being a bitch on someone else's post, i'll keep my thoughts on my own blog.

i've seen people contrast yunmeng shuangjie by arguing that, while wei wuxian comes across as a rebel and jiang cheng comes across as highly mindful of social norms, in reality their social abilities are the opposite: that, in reality, it is wei wuxian who is socially apt and jiang cheng who is socially incapable.

for some fans, this then translates into political ability. these fans argue that it is wei wuxian and not jiang cheng who is capable of making connections.

come on now. this makes no sense. in fact, i'd go as far as to say that the story of MDZS as it is written is only possible if jiang cheng is actually better at making long-term connections - political connections - than wei wuxian.

certainly, wei wuxian is more personable and fun to interact with than jiang cheng; certainly, if everyone was a kid on a school playground, then most of the other kids would probably prefer to play with wei wuxian over jiang cheng. and yet, the world of MDZS is a bit more complicated than a school playground. wei wuxian might be more friendly and social than jiang cheng, but in no way does this translate to actual political ability.

it is true that wei wuxian most likely made a large number of friends at the cloud recesses lectures (such as one nie huaisang), before he was expelled for punching jin zixuan. one might then want to call these friendships future political connections. based on this, one might then expect that, after leaving yunmeng jiang to protect the wen remnants, wei wuxian would have some connections to cash in on.

and yet, this did not happen. where were these supposed "connections" when wei wuxian left yunmeng jiang to defend the wen remnants? where were these "connections" when wei wuxian was living in the burial mounds with no one but a bunch of escaped POWs, all for the sake of what was just? and where were these supposed "connections" when the entire cultivation world showed up on wei wuxian's doorstep, calling for his head?

the whole point of the first chronological half of the story is that wei wuxian stood alone. when wei wuxian chose to do what was right over what was easy, he stood alone. when wei wuxian chose to protect the innocent, he did so alone. and when wei wuxian refused to give up on the wen remnants, severing his single strongest political tie in the process - he ended up standing alone against the rest of the cultivation world. no one came to save him. no one even came to stand by him. none of the connections he made before his downfall as the yiling patriarch - save for one, which only stepped up after he died once - actually ended up lasting.

therefore, one can only conclude that, for all his friendliness and inherent likability, wei wuxian actually isn't all that great at forming and maintaining useful political connections. no matter how much people might like him at first, for almost everyone, he's ultimately too politically inconvenient to stand up for.

(funnily enough, the fact that almost all of wei wuxian's connections save a handful were fair-weather friends is highlighted by wei wuxian himself, in the following exchange during the second siege:

One of the cultivators standing at the forefront of the formation said, with bitter grief, “Wei Ying, you truly disappoint me. To think I used to admire and look up to you! I even said that, if nothing else, you were a founder, someone who established the first generation of your own sect. It’s almost nauseating, in retrospect. From now on, you and I stand in opposition!” Wei Wuxian was taken aback by this speech at first but then burst into hysterical laughter. “Ha ha ha ha….” He laughed so hard he could barely breathe. “You admired me? You say that, but why did I never see you, back when you admired me? And when everyone began to bay for my blood, you popped up waving your little flag to cheer in support!”

MDZS Seven Seas translation, Book 4, Chapter 18: Night Flight)

meanwhile, the plot of MDZS is fully impossible if jiang cheng is bad at making political connections. first, consider what happened right after the massacre of lotus pier: the golden core transfer happened, wei wuxian was thrown into the burial mounds, and then three months later jiang cheng and lan wangji found him again. by that point, jiang cheng had already called enough new disciples to his banner that yunmeng jiang was considered a contributor to the sunshot campaign. given that jiang cheng had literally no one by his side after the fall of lotus pier save jiang yanli, it is highly unlikely that jiang cheng would have been able to recruit this many new disciples if he had no interpersonal skills.

(one could potentially make the case that jiang yanli recruited the new disciples, but i find this difficult to believe. people in this time period would assess the strength of a political organization - one asking them to do something as dangerous as go to war for them - by the quality of that organization's leader. not by the quality of the leader's sister who would have inevitably married out of the organization. sucks to suck but that was how things worked back then.)

furthermore, jiang cheng rebuilt lotus pier. jiang cheng rebuilt lotus pier from literally nothing. some jc antis like to argue that wei wuxian contributed more to the rebuilding of lotus pier than jiang cheng, but this is absurd: wei wuxian was only around during the postwar period for 1-2 years at most before he left for the wen remnants, and a few years after that he was dead. after wei wuxian's defection, and then in the 13-year time period between wei wuxian's death and his resurrection, who was left in lotus pier? was in charge of lotus pier? who was running lotus pier so efficiently that, by the time of wei wuxian's resurrection, yunmeng jiang had gone from what wang lingjiao called a joke to one of the strongest sects in the jianghu?

of course - none other than jiang cheng.

this level of political rebuilding, for an organization that was literally decimated less than 20 years ago, is only possible if the leader of said organization is highly politically capable. during the 13 year timeskip, jiang cheng as yunmeng jiang's leader would have had to deal with rival sect leaders, make alliances with other sects, strike deals with other sects, and keep a constant awareness of the political landscape. all of this is only possible if jiang cheng is capable of making useful political connections. frankly, i think fans are putting too much emphasis on jiang cheng's surface-level mannerisms (which he also is only showing because wei wuxian is around, lbr), and too little focus on simple logic. if jiang cheng did not have the ability to make political connections, then yunmeng jiang would have collapsed.

it's easy to read MDZS and conclude, based on a surface-level analysis, that wei wuxian is better at making connections than jiang cheng. yet this take is at best shallow and at worst actively misses all the main points of the novel. for all his charisma, sociability, and wittiness, wei wuxian is actually not that socially apt - if he were, he and the wen remnants would not have died. and - for all of his snappishness, grumpiness, and irritability - jiang cheng is actually not a social klutz - if he were, yunmeng jiang would not have survived to see wei wuxian's resurrection.

the socially-apt underdog you're thinking of is jin guangyao.

(also, as an aside: nie huaisang did not mastermind wei wuxian's resurrection because he was, secretly all along, wei wuxian's ~great friend~ who was just so sad and disappointed about what happened to poor wei-xiong. it's a nice bit of fanon, but that's not what happened. nie huaisang masterminded wei wuxian's resurrection - 13 years after wei wuxian's death, i might add - because of wei wuxian's expertise. he needed someone with wei wuxian's specific expertise to both solve the nie mingjue dismembered corpse problem and to get revenge for him on jin guangyao. i don't know where bleeding heart huaisang came from, but it certainly wasn't canon.)

[wangxianficfinder]

In the mood for...

May 14th

~*~

1. Hello! For itmf wangxian chat-fics please?? Thankyou!! @lunamooonn

you gotta help me; i’m losing my mind by livinginaworldofnoise (G, 3k, WangXian, Modern AU, Social Media, Reddit AU, Crack, wangxian seeking advice from reddit, Misunderstandings, Miscommunication, Assumptions of Cheating, Unconventional Format, Epistolary, Kinda?, [Podfic] Cold read of you gotta help me; i’m losing my mind by kisahawklin) is a hilarious Reddit fic okay?

it’s all fun and games ’til somebody loses their mind by livinginaworldofnoise (G, 8k, WangXian, Modern, Roommates/Housemates, Epistolary, chatfic, Texting, what if they were roommates and they were completely incompatible and also they had a cat, the unsubtle art of annoying your roommate into falling in love with you, the inherent romance of passive aggressive post-its, Passive-aggression, Crack, Unconventional Format, Living Together) and pretty much everything by this author because she does epistolary (sp??) type fics !+

Grandmaster of Meme-onic Cultivation by Hades_the_Blingking (T, 75k, multiple ships, Chatlogs, chatfic, Texting, Comedy, Canon Compliant, Crack, Memes, Humour, JGY is best bitch, i am afraid of when LXC finally snaps, XY is a highly cursed person, NHS is still mvp tbh, chatroom fic, Polyamory, Lots of it, Not Everyone Dies, Additional: please do not eat or drink reading this enough people have choked x-x) is a full-chat fic

🔒 you’ve ruined my life (by not being mine) by cicer (E, 132k, WangXian, Modern AU, Developing Relationship, Idiots in Love, Awkward Flirting, teenage romance, Shameless WWX, slowburn, Demisexuality, references to lqr’s a+ parenting, references to jfm’s a+ parenting, but we’re gonna get a happy ending ANYWAY, references to yzy’s a+ parenting, Background NMJ/LXC, hints of nmj/lxc/jgy, bottom LWJ in chapter 15, [Podfic] you’ve ruined my life (by not being mine) by fensandpodfic (fensandmarshes))

call me, beep me by myung (T, 39k, WangXian, MM/WQ, JC/WN, JYL/JZX, Social Media, Modern, Actors, Celebrity, Chatting & Messaging)

He is Wei Wuxian’s by devinokaze (T, 41k, WangXian, Modern, Celebrity, Actors, Actor WWX, Singer/Dancer LWJ, Social Media, Entertainment Industry, POV Outsider, Fluff and Humor)

life, drama and action by Akai__hana (G, 13k, WangXian, JYL/JZX, Modern, Actors, singer LWJ, actor WWX, Social Media, Fluff and Humor, Established Relationship, Crack)

~*~

2. Itmf

Are there any fics where Jiang Fengmian for once gets his shit together and stands up to Yu Ziyuan for his Children and that changes his relationship with his children including Wei Ying. Like I literally want him to shun her away from all three kids n Jiang Fengmian to finally be the father that he was supposed to be. @kan-chan-aqua

A wilted lotus sprouts thorns by GeminiWillow (Not Rated, 42k, WIP, WangXian, JFM Tries, Good Parent JFM, POV JFM, BAMF JFM, Time Travel Fix-It, Canon Divergence, YZY Bashing, Bad Parent YZY, JC Bashing, JFM-centric, Somebody Lives/Not Everyone Dies, Sentient Burial Mounds, Yúnmèng Jiāng Sect Deserves Better, LWJ Has Friends, Sect Heir JYL) might not be an exact fit because Jiang Cheng ends up in Madam Yu's custody but he does stand up to her going as far as to divorce her so here

~*~

3. Hello! I'm looking for stories where Wei Wuxian's mental health is more addressed, for example, they could be stories that indicate that his mental health is very damaged, they could also be stories exploring the headcanon that he has ADHD.

we’re starting at the end by Miss_Enthusiasimal (M, 92k, WangXian, JC & WWX, Time Travel, Canon Divergence, Implied/Referenced Suicide, Golden Core Reveal, Burial Mounds, Hurt/Comfort, Angst, Starvation, emaciation, Cannibalism, Self-Harm, Amputation, Suicidal Thoughts, Sunshot Campaign, let JZX and WWX be friends club)

Consequences by Remma3760 (Not Rated, 58k, WangXian, XiSu, XuanLi, Canonical Child Abuse, Abusive YZY, Good Uncle LQR, WWX is a Lan, Accidental Baby Acquisition, Bad Parents JFM and YZY)

Silent Goodbyes Taste Bitter by Starlight1395 (Not Rated, 26k, WangXian, vent fic, Hurt/Comfort, openish ending, Suicidal Thoughts, Self-Harm, Depression, Anxiety, cloud recesses days, Angst, beginnings of Wangxian, Happy Ending, self deprecating thoughts, Mentions of past child abuse, Attempted Suicide, Panic Attacks, Blood, graphic self-harm and suicide attempt, only in second chapter tho)

🔒 Changed for the Better by tigerlilly3224 (M, 4k, WangXian, Modern, College/University, Mental Health Issues, Therapy, Medication, WWX Has ADHD, Autistic LWJ, Therapist LXC, Good Sibling LXC, Good Uncle LQR, Bad Parents JFM and YZY, Implied/Referenced Child Abuse, Past Child Neglect, Grief/Mourning, Of your past, Protective LWJ, Adopted WWX, Healing, Angst and Hurt/Comfort, Feels, Panic Attacks)

The Art of Communication by mrcformoso (G, 4k, WangXian, Modern AU, College/University, Tooth-Rotting Fluff, Meet-Cute, Engineering Student WWX, Music Student LWJ, Swimmer WWX, Martial Artist LWJ, POV Outsider, POV WWX, POV LWJ, Everything is Beautiful and Nothing Hurts, Communication Issues, But Wanxian Makes it Work, LWJ has limited words, WWX has too many words, Falling In Love, First Kiss, Love Confessions, Love Languages, Requited Love)

in the arms of the angel by ScarlettStorm (E, 37k, WangXian, Modern with Magic, Fox WWX, animal rescuer LWJ, Minor pining, major shenanigans, Comedy, Smut, Getting Together, Hurt/Comfort, Adhd WWX, Blowjobs, Frottage, switch rights, Scent Kink, mildly telepathic sex, courtship via kittens)

O, What Learning Is! by Comfect (T, 60k, WangXian, XiCheng, XuanLi, Canon Divergence No Fall of Lotus Pier, No Golden Core Transfer, Fix-It, Butterfly Effect, Fluff, Cultivation Theory, Cultivation Sect Politics, JYL and JZX Live, Canon-Typical Violence, LWJ-Typical Unwillingness to Discuss Feelings Initially, WWX-Typical Obliviousness, Unreliable Narrator WWX, The Undeniable Romance of Quests, Good Student WWX (for a given value of good student), Canon-typical treatment of children, Especially WWX, Bad Parent YZY, Bad Parent JFM, Good Uncle LQR) isn’t tagged as such, but it’s written from Wei Ying’s POV, giving the reader a glimpse of his chaotic, probable-ADHD pattern of thinking.

🔒 Concord by Deastar (T, 41k, WangXian, Arranged Marriage, Gūsū Lán Sect Rules, Depression, Canon Divergence, Angst with a Happy Ending, [Coldread of] Concord by Deastar by AuntieIroh)

~*~

4. I just saw #6's ask & it made me curious, r there any fics where wwx is resurrected but hides it - where people know it's him, they just thought/start to think he never actually died, & like fled & left them to their assumptions or faked his death or was just badly hurt and lacking his wounds for awhile. Also, u know in downtown abbey when that bandaged scarred guy was either edith's childhood friend or lying & scamming her? Any like that? Where wwx is thoughtofwell&fakesappearorhedoubted?

in this place where we don’t have a prayer by Cerusee, Mikkeneko (T, 42k, XuanLi, WangXian, ChengQing, for like the first time ever someone besides WWX actually succeeds at killing WWX, now historically killing WWX without WWX’s active participation, has proven to be a tricky proposition but here we go, killing WWX has made a lot of people very angry and is widely being regarded as a bad move, WWX: I made necromancy look cool and now all the kids are doing it, WQ: what—like it’s hard?, JC shout, she is a godsend, if you ever need a character to just yell the thing, JC is available for your shouting needs, JZX: the least objectionable of all the Jins, JC is getting like all of the best comedy lines in this story, it is his secret birthright, somehow ‘WWX died at Qiongqi Path’ went from being the central premise of this story, to being a thinly veiled excuse for JC to yell at people who look funny at his brother, no regrets tbh) not exactly a fit for the request but since there's no suggestions so far, WWX dies a little bit earlier and things play out very differently but it does have a coverup about his death

The Porcelain Lotus of Yunmeng by The Feels Whale (miscellea) (T, 16k, WangXian, JC POV, Amnesia, yunmeng bros reconciliation, Eventual WangXian, LWJ Is Not Okay, He gets better, Wangxian Reunion, LWJ pov)

it’s a long road but we’re not alone by Stratisphyre (M, 62k, WangXian, JYL & WWX, LWJ & LJY, JL & LSZ & LJY & OYZZ, Canon Divergence, Not Everyone Dies, Canon-Typical Violence, Parenthood, Grief/Mourning, Family Feels, Reunions, Golden Core Reveal, Getting Together)

~*~

5. Hi its me again for itmf fics that lwj is obsessed with and kidnaps wwx? Thankyou! @lunamooonn

Obelus by Celestios (Not rated, 167k, WangXian, SL/XXC, LXC/NMJ, JYL/JZX, Rape/Non-Con, non-con elements, NO rape, Non-Consensual Spanking, Non-Consensual Punishments, Spanking, Punishments, Dubious Morality, Dubious Consent, physical discipline, Physical Abuse, Toxic Relationships, Abusive Relationship, Kidnapping, Stockholm Syndrome, mention of violence, mention of drugs, Mention of alcohol, Possessive Behavior, Obsessive Behavior, Unhealthy Relationships, dark LWJ, Baker WWX, Bodyguard WN, Mentions of weapons, Gun mentions, Slow Burn, Long, Doctor WQ, Self Medicating, WWX has ADHD, Trauma Bonding, Psychological Manipulation, Gaslighting, Organized Crime, underground crime, Underground business, illegal business) please mind the tags

🔒 Fizz by inflight_gremlin (M, 3k, LWJ & WWX, Dark LWJ, Flight Attendant WWX, Obsessive Behavior, Modern, One-Sided Attraction, Obsessive LWJ, Kidnapping, Implied/Referenced Drug Use, Supportive Sibling LXC, Stalking, Dark, One-Sided WangXian, Crime Boss LWJ, Extremely Dubious Consent, Non-Consensual Touching, non-con elements, Date Rape Drug/Roofies) please mind the tags

~*~

6. itmf: a) wwx taking care of the juniors like a mother hen b) shifter! AU (preference: fok! wwx, dragon! lwj, bottom wwx, mpreg)

thank you!

6A)

🔒 Not Yet (There As Needed) by sunrise_and_death (T, 13k, LSZ & WWX, JL & WWX, JL & LSZ, WangXian, Post-Canon, Family Feels, Family Bonding, POV LSZ, This Fic Has Everything, even more yearning, WWX & LSZ figuring out wtf their relationship is, Dramatic Revelations)

Still in the Water by airgeer (T, 45k, WangXian, JL & LSZ, Case Fic, Post-Canon, Angst and Humor, Hurt/Comfort, LWJ gets hurt in this one and it's weird for everyone, Fainting, but WWX is in the fic so of course there's fainting)

tell some storm by qurbat (G, 31k, wangxian, JC & WWX, LSZ & WWX, NHS & WWX, Post-Canon, Hurt/Comfort, Fluff, liberal amounts of outsider POV)

your name, safe in their mouth by astrolesbian (G, 10k, LSZ & WWX, WangXian, Father-Son Relationship, Injury, Hurt/Comfort, Post-Canon, More aligned with CQL than novel canon, Miscommunication, Eventual Positive Communication, Trying to be a family, how to tell your dad you want him to be your dad in 6 easy steps!)

6B)

To lurk, to lie in wait by trippednfell (M, 124k, WangXian, Modern with Magic, Huli Jing, strangers to co-parents to lovers, Strangers to Lovers, Dragons, Kid Fic, teenage juniors, background NieLan, Angst with a Happy Ending, Case Fic, Implied/Referenced Suicide, Hurt/Comfort, Implied/Referenced Character Death, Not Really Character Death, Fox Spirit WWX, Dragon LWJ, Blood and Injury, Additional Warnings In Author's Note, [Podfic] To lurk, to lie in wait by raitala)

a siren's tail by sweetlolixo (M, 2k, WangXian, Dark Fantasy, Dragon LWJ, Siren WWX, Dark LWJ, Dark LSZ, Dragon LSZ, lying by omission, Manipulation, mpreg mention, Royalty, Happy Ending)

A Baby Dragon’s Guide To Seducing Your Huli Jing by sweetlolixo (M, 102k, WangXian, Fantasy, But still in the Cultivation World, Dragon LWJ, Fox WWX, Younger LWJ, Older WWX, Fluff, Humor, Eventual mpreg, Angst with a Happy Ending, Best Boy A-Yuan)

A Ribbon Of Hope by Liebing (T, 8k, WangXian, Foxxian, dragonji, Fantasy, Sweet, soft, Happy Ending, Childhood Sweethearts, Enemies to Lovers, Fluff, LXC is the best big brother, Confessions, Losing each other, Finding each other again, Misunderstanding, Jealousy, Drunk LWJ, ribbon swapping, talk of getting married, talk of baby fox dragons, betrothal, True Love, Soulmates, Pregnancy in the bonus chapter, child birth, Married Life, complications in pregnancy and childbirth but everything is fine, breast feeding)

what you have tamedby lianhua_lianzi, Senforza (E, 94k, WangXian, XuanLi, XiYao, Eventual 3Zun, Animal Traits, misunderstandings (not the romcom kind that can be resolved in a 5min convo), Courting Rituals, Pining, Lan family dynamics, Drama, Fluff, Hurt/Comfort, Arranged Marriage, Wangxian break up but get back together, Eventual Happy Ending, vague biological essentialism (animal species have different mating preferences), Canon Typical Alcohol Usage, Implied Mpreg, Top LWJ/Bottom WWX, Unresolved Sexual Tension, unintentional and eventually resolved “gaslighting”, Dragon LWJ, Fox WWX)

~*~

7. Looking for any selkie wangxian fics!! Thank you!

🔒never love an anchor by tardigradeschool (T, 31k, WangXian, Selkies, No Powers, Historical, Hurt/Comfort, Depression, Pining, Angst, Happy Ending, The Inherent Eroticism of the Sea, PTSD, Presumed Dead, Drowning)

The Tiger has Destroyed his Cage by updatebug (G, 54k, WangXian, JFM/YZY, Shapeshifters, Fix-it fic, Most people live, and the ones who don’t were aholes anyway, Animal Pelts, Tiger WWX, Found Family, adopted family, Yungmeng Siblings, LWJ is very confused, You can tell from his face, Canon appropriate angst and violence, Gratuitous OCs, If canon will not give me women I will make them, Jiang Sect) tigershifter!WWX that runs on selkie rules. One of my very favorite fics in the fandom <3

bring you home by Alasse_Irena (T, 27k, WangXian, Selkies, Modern with Magic, Pre-Slash)

Clothe Yourself in Beauty Untold by GhostySword (G, 5k, WangXian, Modern with Magic, Hurt/Comfort, Accidental Baby Acquisition, Angst with a Happy Ending, Mama Lan Feelings, Selkies, Selkie WWX, Kid Fic, Fairy Tale)

~*~

8. Hi! I’m in the mood for wangxian competency porn. You know, fics where one or both of them are just really freaking good at something, like night hunting or solving mysteries or any modern au equivalent. Just them being suuuper competent and likely turned on by how competent the other is.

🔒A Glimpse of Past Glory by masked (T, 1k, WangXian, Post-Canon, Swordfighting, BAMF WWX)

Zombies? Ridiculous. by relenafanel (T, 4k, WangXian, Modern with Magic, POV LWJ, WWX's Birthday, Meet-Cute, Meet Ugly (actually), Confessions, First Meetings, Falling In Love, Romantic Comedy, cultivation, zombie costume, Competency Kink)

🔒 (i've got) trouble in mind by seularen (E, 76k, wangxian, JGY/LXC, modern w magic, heist au, thief WWX, forger LWJ, consigliere JGY, epistolary, long-distance relationship, d/d elements, Canon wangxian kinks, happy ending)

🔒 when the sun goes out by travelingneuritis (E, 176k, WangXian, Modern Cultivation, tech cultivation, Necromancy, Angst with a Happy Ending, insecurity around adoption, Dad!WWX, dad!lwj, Grief/Mourning, Mistaken Identity, Mood Whiplash, Body Swap, sex tears!, Falling In Love, Consensual Somnophilia, apocalypse (localized), Smut, unrealistic sexual stamina, Flashbacks, Time Skips, Illustrations)

Fighting Chance by fyredancer (E, 15k, WangXian, Modern Cultivation au, Competition, Tournaments, Secret Identity, kinda - Wei Wuxian is very obvious, Competence Kink, Feelings Realization, Love Confessions, First Kiss, First Time, Hand Jobs, Frottage)

🔒 The Second Jade of Lan’s late but incendiary sexual awakening by KizuKatana (E, 41k, WangXian, First Time, LWJ’s Horny Grip, canon wangxian dynamics, college AU, LWJ starts off annoyed at WWX, But quickly discovers both his competency kink and a caretaking kink, Genius WWX)

varied my velocities by fantasiavii (E, 58k, WangXian, Modern AU, Ballerina LWJ, Football/Soccer player WWX, Enemies to Lovers, Top WWX/Bottom LWJ, Dom WWX, Angst with a happy ending, Internalized homophobia)

Lan Wangji is NOT a Sapiosexual by silverclaw (E, 5k, WangXian, Modern, Office Sex, Roleplay, Competence Kink, very light dom/sub undertones, LWJ is a brat, A side of strength kink as a treat, Bottom LWJ, Porn With Plot, LWJ is in fact a sapiosexual)

My chain hits my chest/When I’m bangin’ on the radio by x_los (T, 2k, WangXian, Case Fic, Modern with Magic, Competence Kink, YLLZ)

~*~

9. Hi! do you have any recommended lists of A) Wangxian fics with Slow Burn? with top lwj and bottom wwx?

B) or recommendations for Wangxian fics with pining Wei Wuxian? with bottom WWX and top LWJ!! please, and thank you so much!! 💗🙌🏽

9A)

Wrong Turn, Right Place by diamondbruise (E, 71k, WangXian, Time Travel, kind of, it’s more reality travel but there’s modern wwx and cultivator lwj, Mutual Pining, Angst with a Happy Ending, Jealousy, Idiots in Love, Slow Burn, Misunderstandings, Cultural Differences)

a light hidden and singingby occultings (microcomets) (E, 48k, WangXian, Arranged Marriage, Canon Era, Mutual Pining, Getting Together, Slow Burn, brief family abuse, mentions of wangxian’s canonical kinks, Misunderstandings, Blood and Injury, Rimming, Outdoor Sex, Blow Jobs, Anal Sex, First Time, Miscommunication, Canon Divergence, Happy Ending)

🔒 The Price of Old Wishes by SoManyJacks (E, 67k, WangXian, Minor canon divergence, Angst, POV LWJ, Depression, Suicidal Thoughts, Eventual Happy Ending, Eventual Smut, Slow Burn, Emotional Hurt/Comfort, semi-verbal!LWJ, Implied/Referenced Homophobia, Implied/Referenced Suicide)

to hold the wind by androids_fighting93, artbysongs (E, 62k, WangXian, MianLi, Soulmates, Modern AU, Reincarnation, College/University, Slow Burn, Friends to Lovers, Mutual Pining, Hurt/Comfort, Disownment, LWJ Loves Rabbits, Touch-Starved LWJ)

Thirty-three Lashes by Winglesss (E, 56k, WangXian, Canon Divergence, Modern with Magic, Immortality, Reincarnation, Case Fic, Hurt/Comfort, Angst with a Happy Ending, Nightmares, Ghosts, Curses, Mutual Pining, Slow Burn, Major Character Injury, Eventual Fluff, Eventual Smut, Explicit Sexual Content, Memory Loss)

Waiting for Spring by thievinghippo (E, 130k, WangXian, Modern AU, MLB AU, Baseball AU, Mutual Pining, Pining while fucking, slight angst, Happy Ending)

9B)

我們的明天; the story of you and me by xuanxuanwo (ostentatiouslyrealistic) (E, 73k, WangXian, Modern, Bookstore, College/University, Writer LWJ, Poet WWX, Exes to Lovers, Exes, Getting Back Together, Crossing Timelines, Mutual Pining, Pining WWX, Friendship, Family, Romance, Poetry, Misunderstandings, Angst with a Happy Ending, Minor Character Death)

🔒 Swing From the Gallows and Wave by NyxNuit (E, 126k, WangXian, Modern with Magic, They're not 'cultivators' they're Exorcists, Murder Mystery, does this count as crack?, featuring my attempts at humor, demon hunter AU, general amounts of absurdity, cameos from other MXTX characters, Major Character Undeath, the typical pining we expect from WangXian, Not a Slow Burn Tho, the usual gratuitous music references, and gratuitous pop culture references, Sexual Content, featuring Yunmeng Bros reconciliation)

Don’t Leave Me by TrippinOnSkies (E, 19k, WangXian, Modern AU, Marriage Proposal, Mental Breakdown, Hurt/Comfort, Fluff and Angst, Panic Attacks, But they are very mild, Overthinking, Good Sibling JC, Break Up, Gentle Sex, Gentle Kissing, Idiots in Love, Pining, Misunderstandings, Oblivious WWX, LWJ Has Feelings, LWJ is Whipped, Getting Together, NHS & WWX Friendship, Friends to Lovers, Emotional Hurt/Comfort, Angst with a Happy EndingInsecure WWX, WWX Has Issues, WWX Has Self-Esteem Issues, Sad WWX, WWX is Bad at Communicating)

a call to motion by vespertineflora (E, 14k, WangXian, Post-The Untamed, Post-Series, Boys In Love, Porn with Feelings, Porn With Plot, Love Confessions, Fuck Or Die, First Time, Anal Fingering, Anal Sex, Kissing, Boys Kissing, Multiple Orgasms, Dry Orgasm, LWJHas Feelings, Pining WWX)

~*~

10. Hi! ITMF fics where WWX knows LWJ really well. Kind of like "The Care and Keeping of Hanguang-jun: An Instruction Manual by Wei Wuxian" or that one fic where he writes a book on LWJ's expressions and what they mean. Just ones where WWX pays attention to LWJ's mannerisms very closely and kind of shows off how well he knows him. Thank you! I really adore and appreciate your blog.

shadows in the sun rise by Yuu_chi ( E, 24k, WangXian, Post-Canon, Night hunts, Curses, Intimacy, Light Angst with a Happy Ending)

The Meaning of Silence by The Silverfish (ZephyrAndTheSilverfish) (T, 14k, WangXian, Mind Manipulation, Hurt/Comfort, Angst, Pining)

the only way out by cafecliche (T, 12k, WangXian, JC & WWX, JC & LWJ, Post-Canon, this is one part character study, one part comedy of errors, and one part fix-it, WWX is a people pleaser in this essay I will, my event planning experience rearing its head again, the only way out [Podfic] by BrickGrass, [Podfic] the only way out by siriliyi)

~*~

11. Hello! For the next ITMF: I would love any recs for fics where Su She is an antagonist or just generally is annoying/causes any sort of issues for WWX or WangXian (I recently read Su She Eats his Heart Out by KizuKatana and loved it - so I'm looking for anything that's even vaguely similar lol) Thank you in advance! 💕

seeds by antebunny (G, 3k, WangXian, SS & LWJ, Canon Divergence, Fix-It, Identity Porn, Dramatic Irony, identity theft, Angst, Hurt/Comfort, the Inherent Romance of Being Known, BAMF WWX, protective boyfriend WWX, simp LWJ)

🔒🧡 rain falls and soaks into the earth series by RoseThorne (T, 60k, WangXian, WIP, Near Death Experience, Attempt Drowning, Madam Yu Bashing, Recovery, No war AU)

🔒💙 Wish I could forget the taste of your skin and the feel of your hands pinning me down by KizuKatana (E, 63k, WangXian, WQ & WWX & WN, weapons-grade thirst, Getting Back Together, Trying REALLY hard to not still like your Ex, but failing, BAMF WWX, BAMF LWJ, Canon Divergence, Modern Cultivation, Case Fic, LWJ’s canonically big dick, sort of a ‘thirsting for your co-worker ex’ vibe, it eventually gets worked out, Mutual Pining, Guest-starring LWJ’s canonically poor communication choices after romantic cave encounters, novel canon relationship dynamics, basically this fic is about escalating sexual tension)

~*~

12. Hello!

In the mood for fics like Holding Shreds by barisan,.. but where bodyswap happened while WY was in lotus pier and not only state of his body was revealed , but lz in his body suffered zidian punishment. And maybe neglect from healers and all that abusive jazz.

Thank you! @best-before-end

~*~

13. Hello! You guys are amazing! For whatever itmf this gets attached to, I'm looking for people's favorite Lan Sizhui POV fics. Modern, canon, wangxian or not, I'm not fussed. I just really like that kid and want to read more from him :) Thank you <3<3<3 @deathdefyinglifeleaps

to the act of making noise by words-writ-in-starlight (WordsWritInStarlight) (G, 19k, LSZ & LWJ, LSZ & WWX, WangXian, Grief/Mourning, Father-Son Relationship, inquiry, LSZ is the best of boys and I will not hear debate, Music, Angst, Fluff and Angst, Found Family, [Podfic] to the act of making noise by Ceewelsh, flamingwell, kisahawklin, Rionaa)

🔒 Dirty Water by Aki_no_hikari (G, 822, LQR & LSZ, Family, Fluff, righteous anger)

A-Yuan's Big Adventure by KatanaHatake (G, 21k, WIP, WangXian, Time Travel, transmigrator Wen Yuan, Found Family, Canon Divergence, Parents LWJ and WWX, People believing WWX birthed A-Yuan, Eventual Happy Ending, Accidental Baby Acquisition, Implied Mpreg, mdzs canon events) my fav fic about A-yuan and lots of chapters are in his pov

🔒 when the sun goes out by travelingneuritis (E, 176k, WangXian, Modern Cultivation, tech cultivation, Necromancy, Angst with a Happy Ending, insecurity around adoption, Dad!WWX, dad!lwj, Grief/Mourning, Mistaken Identity, Mood Whiplash, Body Swap, sex tears!, Falling In Love, Consensual Somnophilia, apocalypse (localized), Smut, unrealistic sexual stamina, Flashbacks, Time Skips, Illustrations) link in #8 Lan Sizhui POV is mostly in the back half of the fic but it's SO GOOD

Picture Perfect by manaika (M, 22k, WangXian, WWX/Other(s), Past Relationship(s), Widower WWX, Grief/Mourning, Getting Together, Families of Choice, Family Feels, Stepfather WWX, WWX is the father who stepped up, LSZ is a Wei, Single Parent WWX, Asexual Character, Aromantic Relationship, Platonic Life Partners, it’s all in the past and only mentioned/discussed when relevant, Sex-Favorable Asexual WWX, Romance, Hurt/Comfort, Modern, Past Character Death, Food Intake Related Medical Issue (not what you think))

as i stumble homewards by the_pretzel (T, 27k, WangXian, Canon Divergence, Canonical Character Death - WWX, Found Family, Food Issues, Trauma, Canon-Typical Violence, LSZ pov, Angst with a Happy Ending, Fluff)

🔒 Black and white by apathyinreverie (T, 10k, WangXian, Fluff, Gusu Lan Sect Rules, Protective LSZ, Protective LWJ, not particularly Gusu Lan friendly, parents wangxian, Mutual Pining, Oblivious WWX, Communication, Post-Canon)

Gathered Herbs & Sweet Grasses by hansbekhart (Not Rated, 19k, LSZ & LWJ, WangXian, dad wangji, LWJ’s Questionable Parenting Skills, Grief/Mourning, Recovery, Injury Recovery, Hopeful Ending, Canon-Typical Violence, Gathered Herbs & Sweet Grasses [podfic] by someplacelikebolivia)

🔒❤️ kick at the darkness ‘til it bleeds daylight by AlfAlfAlfAlfAlf, tardigradeschool (T, 75k, WangXian, Hurt/Comfort, Everyone Lives/Nobody Dies, Eventual Happy Ending, Getting Together, Burial Mounds Settlement Days, Inspired by The Parent Trap (1998), Kid Fic, teen shenanigans, two a-yuans, Fluff and Angst, [Podfic] kick at the darkness ‘til it bleeds daylight by contributor-sky (deepestbluesky), esbielle was also here (esbielle), glittercracker, GodOfLaundryBaskets, jellyfishfire, kisahawklin, Koontyme, Rionaa, semperfiona))

When You Wake, 怎能当梦一场 by acertainrogue (T, 39k, WangXian, WWX is in a coma, Angst with a Happy Ending, Modern AU, Single Dad LWJ, Implied/Referenced Homophobia, Parenthood, YZY’s A+ Parenting, JFM’s A+ parenting, wangxian family) this is the best modern lan yuan POV imo!

~*~

14. For in the mood for could you recommend getting together fics that focus on lwj feeling hurt by wwx flirting/showing lots of affection because he thinks that wwx doesn‘t actually love him? Wether wwx knows that he‘s in love or is ignorant to his own feelings at first doesn‘t matter.

And then obviously i want the reveal that no, wwx wasn‘t taking advantage of lwj‘s feelings and kindness and being a huge tease but was simply ignorant/too scared to escalate into full relationship territory.

Both POVs are fine. I just need the pining while being very very close, like suspiciously so, but not outright romantic at first.

r/relationships by vespertineflora (T, 8k, WangXian, Modern AU, Social Media, Viral Reddit Post, Pining, Crushes, Friends to Lovers, Awkward Flirting, Romantic Gestures, Romantic Comedy, Love Confessions, Kissing, Happy Ending, r/relationships [podfic] by someplacelikebolivia)

my dreams are playing softer now by fleurdeliser (T, 8k, WangXian, Modern with Magic, Drunken Shenanigans, First Dates)

Some of You by tangerinechar (M, 60k, WangXian, Modern AU, Social Media, Actor AU, Idiots in Love, Mutual Pining, Fluff, Love Confessions, Matchmaking, Light Angst)

~*~

15. ITMF any completed, English fics that are canon divergence from the moment wwx resurrects as Mo xuanyu at Mo manor. Or even if it does follow canon mostly, slight changes to it (like say wangxian recognize each other at Mo Manor instead of Dafan Mountain etc). Thanks!!!! @chenqingmagic

💙 Love Song In Reverse by timetoboldlygo (T, 237k, WangXian, Amnesia, Canon Divergence, Angst with a Happy Ending, Emotional Hurt/Comfort, Non-Sexual Intimacy, Falling In Love, Slow Burn, agressively mixing and matching novel and cql canon, No Homophobia, Mentions of Starvation, Parental WWX)

💖 Mo Money, Mo Problems by x_los (M, 3k, WangXian, Canon Divergence, Getting Together, Confessions)

things we’re all too young to know by someitems (T, 11k, WangXian, Misunderstandings, Junior Ensemble Shenanigans, Mistaken Identity, Found Family)

~*~

16. Hi! Are there any fics where WWX meets CSSR and WCZ when he's an adult? maybe some time-travelling shenanigans or something. Or a fic where they come back alive, or something of the sort

The lark and the willow by Mhalachai (G, WangXian, CSSR/WCZ, Time Travel, Angst with a Happy Ending, Chief Cultivator LWJ, More parental issues than you can shake a stick at, make time travel have consequences you cowards, yunmeng bros reconciliation)

in a dream, i was home by thelastdboy (M, 25k, WangXian, POV LWJ, Canon Divergence, Post-First Siege of the Burial Mounds, Time Travel Fix-It, Hurt/Comfort, Angst with a Happy Ending, Cloud Recesses Study Arc, Different First Meeting, Getting Together, Friends to Lovers, Sentient Burial Mounds, CSSR and WCZ Live, Families of Choice, Protective LWJ, Everybody Lives, Temporary Character Death, Grief/Mourning, Cloud Recesses Shenanigans, WWX Leaves the Yunmeng Jiang Sect, Golden Core Reveal, Fluff, Developing Relationship, Wen Remnants Live, WQ Lives, WN Lives, No Sunshot Campaign, BAMF WWX)

The Return of Cangse Sanren by milesofheart (T, 52k, WIP, WangXian, CSR/WCZ, Canon Divergence, CSR & WCZ Live, Angst with a happy ending, Emotional Hurt/Comfort, Burial Mounds days, BAMF CSR)

🔒 Love you always, in any form you come in by YumichanHamano (G, 7k, WangXian, CSSR/WCZ, Time Travel, Fluff, happy birthday wei wuxian!, he can have his parents back as a treat :) )

The Long Winding Road Home by Admiranda (T, 13k, CSSR/WCZ, WangXian, flash forwards, Time Travel, Post canon, WWX’s parents come to post canon mdzs, not for JC fans, fluffy family reunions, mocking LQR to his face, mocking JC to his face, wild rumors abound)

31 Steps to a Brand New Qishan Wen, the 9th installment of 💖 Magical Marriage Ribbons Series by starandrea (M, 37k, WangXian, Canon Divergencem Kid Fic, WWX's rattle drum, Burial Mounds, Shapeshifters, non-human sex (because they're shapeshifters), CSSE and WCZ Live, Family Reunions, Fox WWX, Dragon LWJ, Magical Animals, Four Guardians, Politics, Telepathy, Bondage, Rough Sex)

~*~

17. Itmf a fic which takes place in cloud recesses arc. Someone (not wwx himself like in the below mentioned fic) stalks wwx and has a grudge against him and finds a chance to assault him outside cloud recesses.

I read for the dust and the dirt and I can't remember if the itmf I mentioned is a fic or just something else.

obscura: ink stain by AvoOwO (M, 20k, wangxian, Cloud Recesses Study Arc, Canon Divergence, Emotions, Heavy Angst, Painting, Temporary Amnesia, Drugs, Drug Use, Non-Consensual Drug Use, Date Rape Drug/Roofies, Drink Spiking, Victim Blaming, LWJ Has Feelings, LWJ Has a Crush, Soft wangxian, Holding Hands, Blood and Violence, Good Sibling JC, Protective JC, WWX is a Mess, Emotional Hurt/Comfort, Politics, Protective LXC, Good Sibling LXC, Good Uncle LQR, LQR Tries, OCs, It Gets Worse Before It Gets Better, WWX Needs a Hug, someone gets punched a lot, LWJ contemplates murder for a moment, JC almost gets it done, not quite about romance, as much as romance elements there, more so about the small things, LWJ loves how WWX smells, some nasty things are said, WWX def needs a nap, he gets one dw, LQR Gets Shit Done, NHS Is A Little Shit, Scheming NHS) not a perfect match but you might be interested

~*~

If you didn’t get an answer to your ask here, don’t forget to make use of @mdzs-kinkmeme and MDZS KINK MEME on Dreamwidth. Authors actually do use them for ideas. You may get what you order!***Your prompt doesn’t have to be kink! Fluff, crack, whatever - it’s all good!***

[jiangwanyinscatmom]

Hello there, anon, I do not publish the asks I receive with links. Much less ones that I have blocked (and in this case for good reason lol.)

But I will answer some of the ideas from it:

Madam Yu was angered that Jiang Fengmian was ambivalent to her as a person and he did not ideologically agree with her, they could never have even an amicable partnership to sustain Lotus Pier. She also was never in Lotus Pier enough as she was always on Night Hunts, not training disciples. She didn't take the name of Jiang Furen out of disrespect to the Jiang name, she had no responsibilities other than her own hate (stop reading fanfic of bad ass gurl boss bitch Madam Yu).

Jiang Fengmian undermined Madam Yu's choices by choosing to dissolve Jiang Yanli's forced marriage arrangement: So was the actual well being of his daughter just... not as important as what Madam Yu wanted? To also force her into the Jiang parents same situation of a marriage filled without respect, love? Because Madam Yu's logic is so reasonable??? Or your point for that matter???

Supposed undermining Jiang Fengmian speaks upon her and Jiang Cheng... She said that, not Jiang Fengmian, she made up a situation that was not even existent to degrade Jiang Cheng, Wei Wuxian (two children) and her own husband (based on a situationship she made up because it can't be her fault or her own flaws, it's someone else to blame, for not liking her or her image she carved into Jiang Cheng). She is the one that says Jiang Cheng is not good enough, while stoic Jiang Fengmian never implies Jiang Cheng is lesser, but wrong, for viewing others as lesser. What he learned from Madam Yu is wrong and cruel.

Courage and arrogance are not the same. She at no point was courageous as everything she did on page was filled with hate aside from one moment of decency to her own child she never expressed any sort of affection before to, while condemning an orphan, hating him, and manipulating his gratitude for a horrendously broken promise and unfair expectations that Jiang Cheng clung to just as hatefully.

[coffeepaintwater]

thinking about the yunmeng jiang sect and the jiang clan. you get two colors because i'm sick of them.

also a close up because the quality gets notoriously knocked down a notch every time i post:

noootes:

this started as a "oh wwx was pretty liked as a head disciple wonder how all those little disciples he taught are doing" then i remembered oh right, they aren't doing at all bc most of them are in fact dead.

so that was cute.

but yeah wwx helping out a younger disciple after a night hunt and also an oc of mine?? ig????

i really wanted inner sect relations content and there aren't a whole lot of characters from yunmeng jiang despite what one might think, so jiang shili was quickly born. kind of love the fucker not gonna lie. his ancestry is up there, but i imagine him living a comfortable life without much expectations as his mother was from a less prominent clan and his father was an inner jiang disciple far from the main clan. he would be heir-apparent only after a whole lot of people died (jiang fengmian, yu ziyuan (yes, i do believe she could have led the sect despite the setting being against that notion), jiang cheng and maybe jiang yanli? the main clan's bloodline would have ended with her though, so i don't think so.), since jiang fengmian didn't have any siblings. and yes, i do imagine he dies in the wen attack on lotus pier.

also, i wonder how the rest of the sect took jiang fengmian bringing wei wuxian to lotus pier. besides the obvious rumors and displeasure at the rift it caused between the two of the clan's leaders, i think at least one thought it was so fucking funny. "nephew, why on earth would you think this child can become a disciple? nephew?? nephew why does the child have a golden core????? whose son is he????????" new hc that several cultivators were convinced that not only is wei wuxian jiang fengmian's bastard, the man had been raising him somewhere underneath lotus pier (yes. underwater.), helping him start his cultivation until he thought the risk of yu ziyuan drowning him on sight was lesser.

at least one auntie was crying laughing at the mess her useless family was making.

and how does. the sect actually work. yes, there's the leader/sect leader, followed by his clan/the main family. the elders (which we don't actually see in lotus pier i think??)........ then... the disciples...? ig? but then, there must be order to that as well. there must be a name for the senior cultivators out of training/combat-ready that are not part of the clan/main family. because if there is no distinction then it wouldn't make sense at all for wei wuxian to be head disciple to older and more capable seniors. and being a head disciple is by definition about leading fellow disciples of your level/generation. that's also assuming that any specialized functions like doctors/talisman masters/liberians would take on personal disciples instead of passing their craft onto their offsprings or picking random non-cultivators off the street for it.

btw, yes i am a wei changze/cangse sanren/jiang fengmian weird little love triangle truther. except cangse sanren didn't give a fuck about him and wei changze was in the end too bothered by the way people constantly referred to his status in the sect to stay with him. boo hoo jiang fengmian, no bitches???

[marshmallowwitharubberband]

Only slightly connected to my previous post, I would love to read an AU where Meng Yao ends up in Yunmeng after being rejected by Pig Guangshan the first time .

Madam Yu, contrary to popular belief, is not a classist bitch, merely a bitch. So, since there are no rumors about Meng Yao that affect her, specifically, she can appreciate how intelligent and efficient he is and he quickly climbs up the ranks, maybe from servant to full-fledged disciple. Maybe Mme. Yu could even use him as a way to "compete" with Fengmian and his "golden disciple" WWX (Poor Jiang Cheng lol). Or maybe Meng Yao could convince her to utilize Wei Wuxian's talents to her advantage, instead of having him as an emotional punching bag. Maybe he and WWX could have a similar relationship as he has with Nie Huaisang in canon.

Meng Yao's talents for diplomacy and conciliation could help the Jiangs a lot, actually.

MY could have been good enough at gathering intel to prevent the Wen ambush and maybe mitigated the levels of tragedy of the attack on Lotus Pier.

Maybe, with Madam Yu's backing, Madam Jin could have come to... not like him, but not despise Meng Yao as much.

Heck, the three of them could even conspire together to get rid of Jin Guangshan.

I don't think that would make Meng Yao magically good, but having his hard work and talents actually appreciated would be good for him.

Having someone powerful openly defending him for once would heal him a lot. And I do think Mme. Yu would be as protective of him as she was of Yin Zu and Jin Zu.

(Also, like, the mommaest of momma's boys having a dommy milf on his corner? heck yeah)

That and, with his enterprising mind, maybe he could have encouraged Wei Wuxian's inventions to make the Jiangs as filthy rich as the Jins and as powerful as the Wen, but with far better PR.

[two-corpses-in-the-burial-mounds]

Rewatched ep. 2 of the Untamed again specifically bc I missed that scene where LWJ pinpointed his crush immediately when he heard that awful rendition of his love song from the terrible handmade-in-10-seconds flute. You know, the first scene in the show where LWJ looked so happy :)

Look at how happy he is :D

Anyways, my point is, I rewatched that episode. And man, I felt so bad for Jiang Cheng. I understand why WWX and LWJ chose to hide WWX's identity from JC, but it's still a tiny smidge mean if you think about it.

Imagine you're JC, you rushed around the mountain to find your nephew bc god forbids your precious nephew gets hurt. You heard the commotion and arrived at the scene behind everyone. Your underlings? other clan people? told you that Wen Ning - the guy notoriously known for tagging along and only listen to your dead brother, whom you had an extremely complicated relationship with - just appeared. You got extremely happy and hopeful at first bc if your brother's sidekick whom your brother abandoned you for was around and kicking then maybe your brother is also still kicking and close by. But then just as quick as the happiness, your rage took over bc therapy doesn't exist yet last you saw him, you were very mad at your brother, and damn would death does nothing to resolve that rage. So you looked at the weird guy that supposedly summoned Wen Ning, who was wearing that damn familiar red and black goth girl outfit, and clinging to that damn Hanguang-jun whom you've been beefing with for the last 16 years also bc of said brother wow isn't that a familiar sight. So all of these factors combined, you're 80% sure that that's your brother, you insisted so but he kept denying and you got so mad bc why was he keep denying it you're so hopeful that your brother is still alive, you're so mad at him bc of the circumstances around his departure from you and your clan 16 years ago and the circumstance around your sister's death. You're so mad bc he broke his promise to you. Why won't your brother come back to you if he's alive?? So you argued and raged and fought with LWJ bc LWJ was getting in the middle of you two again. You fought and noticed the weird guy trying to get away so you hit him with your whip, both to stop him and confirm that he's possessed by your brother's spirit. Except nothing happened and there's no evidence of possession. You were in extreme disbelief and heartbreak bc you were so sure, so so sure that was your brother and now it's just seem like another one of your paranoia episode. You had so much hope that you found him again, you thought you found him. But evidence said it's not him. Everyone said it's not him. Everyone was saying you're crazy, that you killed your brother already but you didn't, that couldn't be him. So while you were having a mental breakdown, LWJ whisked the guy away to Gusu.

You got sad, and mad, and grumpy, and disappointed, and heartbroken for the next few days until you found and captured the weird guy again and would you look at that, it IS your bitch-ass brother who've been playing house with Hanguang-jun this entire time.

Rip to Jiang Cheng, you stared at your whip and be like, why did you fail me so

-How JC looked at WWX during that scene. You cannot tell me there's only hatred in these eyes.

Damn I'm not sure if you're my brother but the ability to make me mad is on point - Jiang Cheng probably

[essekknits]

Can’t help but wonder what the dynamics of the Jiang family would’ve been if Wei Ying was a little girl instead of a little boy.

First change I think would have to happen is that madam Yu would have to find different reasons to hate her, if she even continues hating her this much. This Wei Ying is not a threat to her son’s inheritance, or to her daughter’s prospects, so that is one part of the hatred not really being there anymore.

As a result of this, Jiang Cheng and Wei Ying’s relationship would be a bit less fraught, I think. Jiang Cheng is no longer constantly being compared to Wei Ying as “he’s the son your father actually wanted, he doesn’t love you”. He can instead take more joy in a second older sister, one who likes to wrestle with him and race him in the lakes, which his sister can’t really do, but who he also might be a bit more comfortable leaning on emotionally than he might’ve been a brother.

In this AU, Yanli might bear the brunt of the comparisons, but I also think she’s more well-equipped to handle it? Female Wei Ying would still be a strong cultivator, which Yanli very much isn’t, but Yanli’s identity doesn’t revolve around her cultivation the way Jiang Cheng’s does. She’s slightly older, and as sad as it is, more used to being looked down on. She doesn’t resent Wei Ying her success the same way she doesn’t resent Jiang Cheng his.

There would also have to be a change in the rumours. I feel like one of the rumours, instead of being “Wei Wuxian is Jiang Fengmian’s bastard with Cangse Sanren” (although that rumour isn’t completely gone either), would turn into a slightly more sinister “Jiang Fengmian couldn’t have the mother, so he’s raising the daughter to become his concubine/second wife/replace his bitch of a wife”.

Which brings us to the final point: Jiang Fengmian. A lot about that man and his motives is left to speculation for the readers, and I saw many beautiful and incredibly valid interpretations of his motives. Maybe he genuinely just wanted to find his friends’ child to honour them. Maybe he wanted to earn a loyal guard to his son. Maybe he was trying to use Wei Ying as a replacement for the friends he lost.

Maybe he couldn’t have the mother, so he took the daughter.

I just think having a female Wei Ying can cause some interesting ripple effects that I’d love to explore, and isn’t just “slap different pronouns on character”.

[the-conversation-pod]

The Untamed Episodes: The Second Life

AND WE'RE BACK

In Part 2 of our Untamed discussion, Ben, NiNi, Shan (@lurkingshan) and Bookworm (@neuroticbookworm) talk about our love for Jiang Cheng, our hatred for Meng Yao/Jin Guangyao, and why we will always hold out hope for more Chinese BL.

If you missed Part 1, you can check it out here.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00 - Welcome 00:55 - Intro: More Notes From The Future 01:45 - The Second Life 09:23 - The Second Life: The Fallout of Wei Wuxian's Choices 16:52 - The Second Life: Meng Yao's Dastardly Deeds 26:52 - The Second Life: The Tragedy of Wen Ning 32:35 - The Second Life: Two 'Fools' 37:41 - The Second Life: Various Random Musings 48:18 - Page to Screen (and Audio, and Anime, and Stage, and…) 56:59 - Afterlife: The Impact of The Untamed on BL and Fandom

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation, the Queer Media And Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

I'm Ben, the media critic.

NiNi

I’m NiNi, the VIIBs queen.

Ben

And we are your drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie who are sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

We’re here to talk queer film and dramas, with a special focus on Asian QL.

Ben

So if you like to dive deep into queer stories…

NiNi

If you like cracked out takes on art and commerce in queer media…

Ben

If you just enjoy simping for attractive people…

NiNi

We believe in simping!

Ben

Tune in!

00:55 Intro: More Notes From the Future

Ben 

And we're back. We're gonna continue with our huge two part episode on The Untamed. We finally bullied NiNi into watching it. We got her into the booth with Shan and our good friend Bookworm. I really hope you listened to the last episode because we're going right into Wei Wuxian's second life. 

NiNi

The second life is so much fun. There's some stuff we talk about in here that I could have continued talking about forever. 

Ben

No more beehive commentary from you right now. 

NiNi 

No more beehives, but I just want the world to know that I love Jiang Cheng. 

Ben 

Ah, that poor boy. What a hot mess of a man. Angry purple man. 

NiNi 

My angry purple dream boat, how dare you. 

01:55 The Second Life

Ben 

On to the second life.

Shan 

So this is after Wei Wuxian is resurrected, 16 years after his death. The Jin clan is now holding the most power in the cultivation world. They have the chief cultivator position. Jin Guangyao has had a meteoric rise to power in the time Wei Wuxian has been gone. His father has died. He has gotten married. He has an heir. 

We also have a whole new generation of junior cultivators along for the ride with us, notably Jin Ling, the son of Jiang Yanli and Jin Zixuan. Lan Sizhui, whose identity is a mystery that's not very well concealed. [laughs] Although, we did not mention our beautiful A-Yuan in the first life, just know that we love him dearly.

Ben 

There's too many things to mention. I didn't even go off on an extended period about Madam Jiang beatin’ the shit out of people.

Shan 

I know, right. 

[all laugh]

NiNi

She was such a bitch, but she came through when it mattered, my God.

Shan 

There's so many characters here, but please know that we love them all dearly even if we haven’t gotten the chance to talk about them all. A-Yuan is very close in our hearts.

Ben

We would just be screaming his name for like five minutes.

Shan

Yes! [laughs] So Lan Sizhui is who we come back to in this new timeline and Lan Jingyi is also around, his best friend—his lifelong bosom companion, you might say. 

Major storylines in the second life. We, of course, have Wuxian getting resurrected in Mo Xuanyu’s body, although in the show it's just the same actor the whole time because they didn't want to do that to us mentally, which I appreciate. He is supposed to settle his grudges as part of that spiritual agreement for his resurrection. So he is pursuing the folks who harmed Mo Xuanyu. The big mystery unfolds with trying to figure out the last grudge that he holds. That aligns with unraveling the big mystery of the hidden foes from the first life.

Jin Guangyao, aka Meng Yao, is the villain behind most of the horrible things that happened in the first timeline. And also getting up to all kinds of other noxious shit like marrying his own sister, killing his own son because he's an incest baby, murdering his father via a gaggle of prostitutes, fucking him to death.

NiNi 

That's a thing that happened, people!

Shan 

Yeah, real normal stuff over there. And recruiting a number of folks to do his dirty work, including villains Su She and Xue Yang. He is a half brother to Mo Xuanyu and responsible for a lot of what he went through, as well. So he's just all up in the business. He also murdered Nie Mingjue and tricked Lan Xichen into being complicit in all of that. 

While that's happening, Wuxian is reunited with Wangji. They are following these clues.

Ben 

I'm sorry, we have to be clear that, like, by following the clues we mean Wei Wuxian wakes up. It's like, “Wow, this place sucks. Whoa, where'd that arm come from? All right, let's put this arm in a bag. Well, the arm’s pointing that way. I guess we're going there now.”

Shan 

That's only in the book, bestie.

Bookworm 

So, in the show it's actually just a sword spirit. 

Shan 

The book is way more gruesome. There’s, like, body parts, it’s a whole thing. The show is a little simpler.

Ben

Okay, yeah, they use a sword but it’s literally like, “oh okay, I guess we’re going east? All right.”

Shan

[laughs] Yeah, the sword points them in the direction they should go to follow some clues.

As Wangji and Wuxian work together to follow the sword spirit, unravel the mystery, the juniors are along for the ride. There is a very devastating arc in Yi City where they meet Xiao Xingchen and Song Lan, who we had briefly encountered in the first timeline, and unravel a whole plot about them being tormented by Xue Yang, who is fucking evil. Very much a fan favorite arc, I think.

Bookworm 

It is the best arc and this is also the most tragic arc.

Shan 

It's quite sad.

Bookworm 

Nobody knew what was going on. Everybody got tricked into it. 

Ben 

The Yi City arc is pretty brutal because we basically see how Meng Yao has orchestrated these complex events to torture and murder people he doesn’t like. Xue Yang does the same thing to two roaming cultivators—not boyfriends—which culminates in him turning one of them into a puppet akin to Wen Ning and then driving the other one to death by making him commit evil acts unknowingly. Which is… diabolical.

Shan

After the Yi City arc, that is when Wuxian and Wangji discover the truth of Nie Mingjue's death, which was very intentionally perpetuated by Meng Yao. By unraveling that, they caught on to his whole evil shit. This all culminates in a confrontation at Guanyin Temple where Meng Yao is fully unmasked, Nie Mingjue's corpse rises and is really out for some revenge—which, fair enough, I would be too. Jiang Cheng confronts Wei Wuxian after learning about the golden core transfer that he never consented to. And we finally learn that Nie Huaisang was actually the one who was behind Wei Wuxian's resurrection and orchestrated this whole mystery plot as a way to get revenge on Meng Yao for murdering his brother. 

While these plot things are happening, there are a couple emotional arcs going on. There is, of course, the continuation of the Jiang family drama and the tension between Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian, which is now complicated by the involvement of Jin Ling, who is Wei Wuxian's nephew and has grown up an orphan because of Wei Wuxian's behavior. Jiang Cheng needs to learn the truth about Wei Wuxian giving him his core. And they have to kind of work through all of their emotions about that, which don't come to any kind of satisfying resolution, because how the fuck could they?

And then finally, there is of course the reunion second chance romance between Wuxian and Wangi. Honestly, their adult romance is so great. Wuxian is resurrected. He immediately reconnects with Wangji. He's having some fascinating mix of memory loss and obliviousness that is his signature and some just emotional denial about the feelings between them. Wangji is having none of that. He is very clear on the fact that he is in love with this man, sticking to his side like glue and not letting anyone hurt him again. So they are traveling together while they solve this mystery. They're having all kinds of very fun ship moments, lots of cute stuff happening. Wangi's getting drunk a lot. 

Ben 

There's a piggyback scene.

Shan

There's definitely some piggybacking happening.

NiNi

There's a definite wedding. I mean, these guys have gotten married like at least three times in the show.

Shan 

Right, exchanging of chickens, very important stuff. [NiNi and Shan laugh] And, of course, standing together publicly in this second life in a way that Wangji was not able to do for Wuxian in the first life. He declares himself very much unambiguously on Wuxian's side in front of all the other clans. He does not give a shit anymore. 

And then of course we learn over the course of this arc that Sizhui is A-Yuan and that Wangji rescued him after Wuxian's death, brought him into the Lan clan and raised him. Wow, what a fuckin’ man. 

They end on an ambiguous note because this is a censored cdrama. [laughs] So instead of the book ending, which involves them getting married and fucking in a field, we get Lan Zhan—very out of character—deciding to become the chief cultivator [laughs] and Wuxian going to travel alone and them having an ambiguously implied reunion right at the very end of the show. But we all know that they got married and had a lot of sex. That's what happened. 

So, yeah. That is the second life in a nutshell.

09:33 The Second Life: The Fallout of Wei Wuxian's Choices

NiNi 

There are two or three really big things that stand out for me, in this arc. One is just seeing Wei Wuxian's regrets. He's looking back at his life like, wow, maybe I shouldn't have done that like that. Or, wow, I was such an arrogant kid, I should have thought about these things in a different way. You see him having regrets as he sees the outcomes of the choices that he made in his first life. 

Alongside that, the choices that he made in his first life have made him kind of a folk anti-hero. He's now the scary story that parents tell their kids about, “Be good or the Yiling Patriarch will come get you.” He's wearing another face, so people generally don't know it's him. So he gets to hear how people are talking about him 16 years later. And he's realizing, “Fuck, I was evil.”

Shan 

He's like, “I did kinda do a genocide. That was my bad.”

Ben 

We really should not downplay that this man literally killed thousands of cultivators.

Shan 

He sure did.

NiNi 

Thousands of people out of anger and arrogance. I mean, you saw how it built up because he really was just trying to mind his own business and everybody kept poking him, but he still killed thousands of people ‘cause he got mad.

Shan

These other clans that hate him, it's for a reason. It's ‘cause he killed all of their family members. It's not some minor petty grudge.

NiNi 

Well, in this arc, but when they hated him before, it was because he had power that they wanted and he wouldn't tell them how he got it.

Shan 

Yeah. In the second life, his reputation is in tatters and people hate him because he killed everybody they love. Which is fair, in my opinion.

NiNi 

It's absolutely fair, completely fair. Totally understand that. 

So that arc is a really interesting arc for me because it carries through all the various relationships. It carries through his relationship with Jiang Cheng because at the end when Jiang Cheng is like, well, what am I supposed to fucking do with this? Okay, you saved my life, but also, hi, got my entire family killed.

Shan 

Fully.

NiNi 

Am I supposed to thank you? I don't know what I'm supposed to do with this.

Shan 

Jiang Cheng was spitting nothin’ but facts in that temple.

NiNi 

Nothing but facts. He was a hundred percent  correct. And he's stuck in this place now because he loves Wei Wuxian. But at the same time, basically his family opened their home to this man and he got them all killed.

Ben

Objection!

Bookworm

Thank you, Ben. 

Ben 

Wei Wuxian did not murder the Jiang clan. The Wens did, and they were going to do it anyway. Wen Chao's active abuse of the hostages was a prelude to them eventually getting killed. When he left them in the cave like that, he intended for them all to die. Wei Wuxian is not the reason why the Wens sacked Lotus Pier. Madam Jiang may be mad because she believes that her husband is probably Wei Wuxian's father, unconfirmed.

Bookworm

Uh-huh.

NiNi 

Pretty much, yep.

Ben

But like, that boy is not the reason why the Wen Clan went on a tear to slaughter their way to more power.

Shan 

That's true. But he is culpable for Jiang Yanli’s death and that is the one that hurts the most.

Ben

Yes, that part he is.

Bookworm 

I also want to make it clear, like, she ran into a battlefield. That woman gave a month old child to somebody and then she just ran into a battlefield. [laughs]

Shan 

Listen, no one's saying Yanli was the smartest bulb. We're not with some of her choices, but NiNi's point, from Jiang Cheng's point of view, is correct.

Bookworm 

That's true. The facts and the emotions that he was spitting at that moment was very true. 

The reason why the story is so compelling is that you have all of these people who had taken very personal losses and they have very personal emotions that are connected to, basically, a political war for power. What are the motivations behind the people who ultimately want to be at the top? What will they do and how will they manipulate the narrative to just achieve that? If they get a scapegoat, all really good. I'm not saying that Wei Wuxian didn't do all of those things. He killed a whole bunch of people, and he was a dumbass who refused to talk to anybody. 

Ben

I'm just being clear that my client, who did kill thousands of people, [all laugh] did not specifically kill his own clan. He shot the sheriff, but he did not shoot the deputy. All right, let's be clear here.

[NiNi laughs] 

Shan 

Let's get back on track, folks. We got a lot of content to get through. 

The reason that Jiang Cheng's arc is so compelling is because, if you think about things from his perspective… like, wow, what the fuck happened to this kid? He was a teenager when his home was destroyed and his parents were murdered in front of him. His brother then—from his point of view—abandoned him, left the clan, to go protect a different family. Adopted new siblings that he prioritized over Jiang Cheng. Never explained himself. Started doing evil shit. Would not tell him anything about why he was doing these things. Ultimately started a battle that culminated in the death of their sister. And then jumped off a cliff. That is what Jiang Cheng's brother did to him, from his perspective. 

And so, it is not hard to understand why he both loves and hates him in equal measure, why he struggles so much to understand him and why he wants to forgive him, but he can't. And Wei Wuxian can never make it right. He made these huge mistakes that they can never come back from. They will never be able to trust each other and be close again.

Ben 

My favorite thing about Jiang Cheng is the emotional core of why he's so mad at Wei Wuxian is Wei Wuxian will never let him be useful. Jiang Cheng feels like he got no credit for getting them out of the cave. He loses his core because he was trying to save Wei Wuxian. He thought he was gonna die, and he doesn't get to have a noble death. He gets turned into a mundane person. 

Then Wei Wuxian helps him get his core back so he can continue to be a cultivator. But then something's clearly wrong with his brother, he then disappears. And they find him again. He's trying to rebuild his clan. Wei Wuxian is supposed to be helping him, but it's clearly not the same. And he can't get through to him. Basically every time he thought he was doing something for Wei Wuxian, Wei Wuxian was doing something for him. But he constantly feels undercut by the brother he admires’ own excellence and ego. Like, he feels like he is forever playing second to Wei Wuxian and he can't ever get over that because now he has Wei Wuxian's core. And he knows that now by the end of the story.

Shan 

Oof. That's some, like, real mind fuck stuff.

NiNi 

Now he's stuck wondering if all the things that he's been and done since then are because of him or because he has Wei Wuxian's core and therefore because he's Wei Wuxian. So he doesn't ever know if he's good enough, now.

Ben 

Exactly.

Shan

My God. Jiang Cheng, they will never make me hate you.

NiNi 

Never, never!

Bookworm 

Never.

Ben 

I understand that angry purple man.

18:13 The Second Life: Meng Yao's Dastardly Deeds

Shan 

I feel like Bookworm should talk a little bit about the way the Meng Yao and Nie Mingjue and Xichen stuff plays out in this arc, ‘cause I know you have a lot of strong feelings about it.

[Bookworm and Shan laugh]

Bookworm 

All right, let's get to it.

Ben 

I really love when I can hear her getting all of her notes together. 

Shan 

She's getting organized.

Ben

I have to organize my slide deck.

Bookworm

I got notes! All right, so in the second arc, we only start by knowing that Nie Mingjue died this horrible death and we have this mystery of his sword and the sword spirit and leading them around. They're just solving the mystery of this murder who, at the time, they did not know that it was a murder. It comes to heads when they go to the Jin headquarters and solve this mystery by basically having Wei Wuxian turn into this tiny paper man and go and perform—I think it's called Empathy—on Nie Mingjue's severed head that is in Jin Guangyao’s secret closet. I cannot believe there are people who defend this man. [laughs]

We get flashbacks of Wei Wuxian finding out exactly how Meng Yao manipulated Xichen into bringing Nie Mingjue and all of them into this sworn brothers pact sort of thing, after the war, and how he used that to slowly erode Nie Mingjue's composure using tainted music. And finally it breaks him. He runs away and the official account is that he is lost, but we know that Jin Guangyao cut his head off with his own sword and then just keep it in his closet. Like a very normal person. 

The way this is revealed, you see all of the major players trying to understand what actually happened and why Lan Wangji and Wei Wuxian chose to kind of have this confrontation with this man. And you can see how he pulls the thread in that scene so well. He orchestrated the action where Wei Wuxian pulls out the sword that was sealed because he lost his core and reveals his identity to everybody in attendance—who are all, we have already established, super mad at Wei Wuxian for killing all of their loved ones. And then you see him kind of imply that Lan Wangji has been seduced into helping Wei Wuxian. 

Ben 

He didn't use a homophobic slur, but we heard it.

Bookworm 

Right! Everybody kind of zeroes in on what Lan Wangji is going to do at this moment, and even Wei Wuxian expects him to remove himself from Wei Wuxian's side. He was worried about what this could mean to the Lan sect itself. So he was like, okay I’m just gonna fly solo from here. But it culminates, of course, with Lan Wangji standing by Wei Wuxian and declaring openly that he is gonna walk the single plank path in the dark till the end with him. Which is just, ah, so romantic. 

Jin Guangyao, he has basically very successfully isolated somebody who has a stellar reputation in the cultivation world within a matter of minutes. He questioned his motivations and he wanted that person to declare his allegiance. And when that person was forced to do it, that's it. That was almost a surgical precision of political strategy. That was insane.

Shan 

It was a real showcase for his skill set.

Ben 

On his back foot, he really won that entire encounter.

Bookworm

He did. That was a fight that Jing Guangyao a hundred percent won. I think at that point, everybody wanted to fight them. But obviously, we know that nobody's going to fight Lan Wangji.

So they then flee. We still have, like, two more showdowns after this, which is where he ultimately loses. But this one, Jin Guangyao a hundred percent won. Even if the cultivation world doesn't know that he was a villain at this point, we as an audience are very clearly shown that this was a man who can talk his way out of anything. That is exactly what he has done for so long, for almost 20 fucking years. He has talked his way to the top of a cultivation world. Like, he has risen from being an illegitimate child to the top position.

Shan

His methods are never to get his own hands dirty. His methods for framing Wei Wuxian in the first life, his methods for continuing to do his dirty deeds in the second life are through these villainous dudes that he recruits into his cause. Su She, who is a former Lan cultivator who has a lot of bitterness that he plays on. Xue Yang, who is another one of Jin Guangshan's illegitimate sons. The illegitimate sons are just all over this story. 

The way the story unfolds—and this is, I think, one of our probably biggest critiques of the show—they eventually end up pinning a lot of what Wei Wuxian ostensibly did in the first life on Su She as a second demonic cultivator who was controlling people when we thought Wei Wuxian was. That's a change from the book to the show. It's a change I hate a lot.

NiNi 

I think about it this way. If Wei Wuxian wasn't doing what he was doing, he wouldn't have created the cover that Su She had to do what he did. So I still blame it on Wei Wuxian.

Shan 

Yeah, I'm with you. I think the show wants to let him off a little bit, but I will not be doing that.

Ben 

I think one of the things that I find compelling about Meng Yao is because of his starting line, he will never be as powerful as someone like Wangji or Wei Wuxian or any of the other clan leaders and named characters in this story. It doesn't surprise me that he ends up teaming up with people who for whatever reason also cannot achieve those kinds of heights. Like, Su She’s just not as good as Wangji and he's envious of him. And he hates that Wangji won't acknowledge him. He hates that Wei Wuxian won't even remember his fucking name. 

Shan 

Wuxian every time: “Who are you?”

[NiNi laughs]

Bookworm 

It's so good!

NiNi 

So amazing.

Ben 

It's notable that the three of them who form this little evil trio all hold specific grudges about the way they feel disrespected. Everybody Meng Yao has killed, he kills because at one point or another, they called him the son of a prostitute. And he's like, “Well, I'm adding you to my list.”

Shan 

Fuck you, then. [laughs] You gonna die.

Ben

Mingjue originally shielded him and elevated him based upon his actual ability and merit. And Meng Yao took out one of his grievances in the middle of a battle and got caught doing it. That's when Mingjue turned against him.

It's the same thing for Su She. Like Su She wants to have his own clan be acknowledged after Cloud Recesses is destroyed. You can see this man's like, “now's my chance!”

NiNi 

But he just sucks. 

Ben

He does! 

Shan 

Yeah, he doesn't have the skills.

NiNi

He just sucks!

Ben

Even the Lan juniors are like, “You are bad. You do not know how to play your instrument.”

NiNi 

The fact that they use the fact that he sucks to hide him in the story as a villain until the very end. Like he's playing the song to attack wrong. But everybody just accepts that because he sucks, right? So of course he's playing the music wrong. He's playing it wrong on purpose, but everybody else just thinks that he sucks at it. Him sucking is how he hides in plain sight. I love that so much.

Ben 

Meng Yao's whole group is shittier versions of other people. Like, Su She is a shitty version [NiNi laughs] of Lan Zhan and Xue Yang is an insane shittier version of Wei Wuxian.

Shan

[laughs] It's true. They're like the sad little copycats who will never have glory.

Ben

That's what I think is so compelling about it. Like, how much of the story would have been solved by people just not being rude to Meng Yao.

NiNi

He would have found another reason.

Shan 

I gotta say, I don't think murder is a proportional response.

[NiNi laughs]

Bookworm 

Right. Exactly.

Ben 

How much is my finger worth? All of their lives! [all laugh] All of them!

NiNi 

Oh my God.

Bookworm 

[Xue] Yang was a fucking unhinged serial killer. Holy shit.

NiNi 

Psychopath.

Ben 

Let me tell you, that actor is my favorite of the whole series. I love his ridiculousness the whole time.

Shan 

That's a bold statement. My favorite actor in this is definitely Wang Yibo, who did so much with so little.

Ben

I'm being a little bit facetious there. Of the side characters—

Shan 

Fair enough.

Ben

—of the supporting characters, he's my favorite because they were like, what's the direction? “Just serve cunt.” “Got it.”

[all laugh]

Shan

And he's serving cunt, but we cannot overstate that he is by far the most fucked up evil dude in this story. What he does to Xiao Xingchen and Song Lan is disgusting.

Bookworm 

My god, yes, let's talk about that.

Ben 

We're gonna get into how evil this man is. But when he talked to Wei Wuxian, he's like, “I need your help with this sort of stuff.” And Wei Wuxian is like, “What the fuck? Why would I help you with that?” He's like, “Well, you started all this shit. What is your problem, dude?”

[Ben, NiNi and Shan laugh]

Shan 

It actually is really funny. He says, “come on, be my mentor.” And Wuxian’s like, “no, no, this is not what I'm doing. This is not connected to me.”

NiNi 

I would like very much not to be a part of this particular narrative.

Shan

Exactly!

Bookworm 

No!

Ben 

We have to talk about Wei Wuxian reflecting. “Is this the company I've collected? Hold on.”

Bookworm

Exactly! Like, holy shit, if this man thinks that I would help him, what does that say about me and my actions so far? 

Shan 

What have I been doing? Exactly.

Bookworm

Yes! What have I been doing?

30:56 The Second Life: The Tragedy of Wen Ning

Shan 

We haven't actually talked yet about what Wei Wuxian did to Wen Ning, and we should.

NiNi

Oh man. The tragedy of tragedies.

Ben 

So Wei Wuxian learns from Wen Qing that the Wen remnants are basically being tormented and experimented on by the Jin clan, who are trying to understand Wei Wuxian's demonic cultivation. When he arrives at this site, he loses his shit, sees that they've killed Wen Ning, and then revives Wen Ning as a puppet—that's the term that they use for, basically, his zombies—and sends Wen Ning on a tear beating the crap out of people. After which he tries to develop a method to restore Wen Ning's consciousness, but he has forever trapped this originally very kind boy in a perpetual state of undead. And he will forever be at the control of anyone who can produce the proper tunes to force him to go beat the shit out of people.

Shan

This is another thing that Wei Wuxian does without the consent of the person involved. He turns Wen Ning, who is a very gentle, loving soul, into a weapon, basically. He turns him into an indestructible ghost puppet who Wei Wuxian uses to perpetuate violence and who other people, we learn, can use to perpetuate violence. One of my biggest criticisms of the story—not just the show, but also the novel—is that it never unpacks what a violation that is on Wen Ning.

NiNi 

Basically, if he hadn't done what he did to Wen Ning, Jin Zixuan would still be alive.

Shan 

Yes, and Wen Ning would not be holding the guilt of having murdered him.

Bookworm

The Wen Ning situation is extremely tragic, but also there are two things that protected the Wen prisoners of war when they were sequestered in the Burial Mounds. One was the Yin Tally, the power of demonic cultivation or whatever. And the other, even though he was not intended for that purpose, once he was resurrected and once he was given the consciousness back and once people understood that he could be a weapon, I think it also protected them a little bit more. Around a year or so, they were able to survive on that mountain. And I really don't think in such a politically tense period, it would be possible to do that without a very obvious threat that they can just sort of unleash on people. It also backfired so spectacularly because his control can be just transferred to whoever wants to take it. 

The Wen Ning that we saw before he was transformed, this boy who tried to help everybody, was so sweet and very shy. Even when he wanted to learn things he was just sequestered. He was secluded, he didn't really interact with people because he knew that the Wen clan was not the greatest. You take that character and you turn him into basically just a walking nuke. 

Wei Wuxian: do first, think later. One of the things that really gets my goat is that after the massacre at the Qiongqi Path, he had the fucking audacity to go after Wen Ning. He woke up and he was like, “You murdered these people.” I will never forgive that man for that moment. I was like, what the hell are you talking about? OOF!

Shan 

It was brutal. Wen Ning's accidental murder of Jin Zixuan is what caused the entire Wen clan to turn themselves in and be exterminated. It is what led to Wen Ning being basically imprisoned and his mind taken over while Wei Wuxian was dead for 16 years. He was locked up with bolts in his fuckin’ head. They were experimenting on him. When Wei Wuxian was resurrected, he did liberate Wen Ning. But from there, Wen Ning had an extraordinarily lonely existence because he's the only one of his kind. His entire family is dead. 

And so, it was nice to see at the end him get some measure of peace by being reunited with A-Yuan again, finding Sizhui and being able to travel together and bond over their dead family and their connection to each other. But Wen Ning is indestructible and immortal and he is going to live a very lonely life. I wish the story had actually unpacked that in any way or Wei Wuxian had ever reckoned with his choices and how he harmed his friend.

NiNi 

To me the tragedy goes even further because the reason that Wen Ning is so protected at all by Wen Qing and others in the beginning is because he's already been hurt. When he was a child, he's already been attacked spiritually by, like, this fairy statue or whatever. So he's already weak. And in some ways it feels like Wei Wuxian thought that maybe he could make him strong, but he just ruined him even more. He does make him strong in a way that he wasn't strong before, but the tragedy of it is that he's a sweet, sweet kid that he turns into a monster. And Wen Ning never blames him for it. He is loyal to him till the end. 

Ben

Yeah, but again, how much of that is because he's been turned into a puppet or his natural tendency? We'll never know. 

Shan

We’ll never know. I love Wen Ning.

Ben

A lot of Wen Ning mentioned in this section, good job everybody!

38:07 The Second Life: Two “Fools”

NiNi 

If we’re talking about tragedy we gotta talk about the tragedy of Meng Yao and Lan Xichen at the end, because oh my god, he ruined that man. He destroyed him.

Bookworm 

All right, let's go! Round two!

Shan 

This is why I do not buy interpretations of canon that claim Meng Yao truly loved Xichen, because—

NiNi 

He did not.

Bookworm 

Mm-mm. Mm-mm.

Shan

—you do not do that to somebody you love. Absolutely not.

NiNi 

He loved that Lan Xichen loved him, but he did not love Lan Xichen.

Shan 

Exactly.

Bookworm 

He loved the influence that he had on Lan Xichen. He was so over the moon happy that he had this very influential man that he could just control and do whatever the fuck he wants with him.

Shan 

So this all culminated at Guanyin Temple when Nie Huaisang tricked Xichen, basically, into thinking Meng Yao was attacking him from behind. Xichen automatically activated his sword, stabbed Meng Yao. Meng Yao on his way out as he was dying, chose not to comfort Xichen, but instead to guilt trip him for killing him and not saving him. 

NiNi 

Walked down the fucking sword. He pushed the sword in deeper!

Bookworm 

He sure did.

NiNi 

Bitch!

Shan 

Brutal stuff, Xichen destroyed. We know that after this, he went into seclusion for several years to try to recover from the emotional blow of this happening to him. And that is how it was revealed that Nie Huaisang was the one behind all of this to get revenge for his brother.

NiNi

Xichen, man. Oh, my god.

Shan 

He’s tragic, but let’s talk about Huaisang. Oh my God, what a good reveal.

Bookworm 

Yes, let's talk about the only person who's really good at politics and only wanted to use it for own reasons, not for grabbing power or anything. I mean, it was implied at the end that he would rise to the top. That man knew how to play the game. But he would have just minded his own fucking business if nobody murdered his brother.

Ben

He just wanted to draw his porn and play with his fans.

Bookworm 

Yes! Yes!

NiNi

Gaslight gatekeep girlboss. That's what he was doing.

Shan 

He wanted to sit in the background gossiping, listening, collecting tea just for fun. But no, these bitches had to go murder his brother, and then he had to get involved.

Ben 

He understood what he was up against and his plan is really elegant and it works because he understands his friends. He knows that if Wei Wuxian comes back and you give him a little mystery to solve, this problem will sort itself out. [NiNi laughs]

Shan

He’s like, just point Wuxian at it! 

Ben

He's just like, all I need is to bring him back and Wangji has to find him first.

Bookworm

That’s it. 

Shan

And he gave them little nudges along the way to help them find the clues that they needed. He found and set up witnesses to be discovered. He was gathering all of the tea and making sure to strategically place it around where Wangji and Wuxian could find it.

Bookworm 

Do we see Nie Huaisang at the confrontation when all of this was unmasked by Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji at the Jin headquarters?

Shan 

He was not in the room.

NiNi 

He's not there. 

Bookworm 

See, so he saw the goddamn mess Jin Guangyao was able to make of that situation and then he was like, “you know what? I'm not gonna leave this to you bitches anymore.” And then he showed up at both the Burial Mounds and at the temple and he played both of those situations to how he wanted. He was like, “Su She, what are you doing? Why are you being weird?”

Shan 

The great thing about the reveal is when you go back and look at earlier scenes, he is in the background of so many crucial scenes where he is gathering information totally unobtrusively. You don't even notice he's there, but he is.

NiNi 

I notice, because I notice the fan. I always see the fan.

Ben

It's in the past too, like he's one of the people who picks up on the intensity of Wangji and Wei Wuxian's relationship. He doesn't have any aspirations about it, but he's clearly aware of it ‘cause he watches it happen.

NiNi 

Not just watches, I'm pretty sure that he showed Wei Wuxian the porn that he then shows to Lan Wangji. 

Ben 

He did.

Bookworm 

He did!

Shan

And there was that whole segment where he was tagging along on their date, bein’ a third wheel.

Bookworm 

That was so funny.

Ben 

He is relying upon them to help him achieve his ends here. But, like, they were also his friends.

Shan 

That is probably one of my favorite mystery reveals in drama. Very good shit.

Bookworm

Excellent. I remember being just gobsmacked with my jaw on the floor when I read the books and got to the reveal. Yeah, I just blacked out and my ears started ringing. I flashbacked everything that happened for the last five books and tried to figure out. It was so good. 

This is exactly why this show has really good rewatch value. Once you know all the information, you see from episode one how all of them connects. It's so satisfying.

44:14 The Second Life: Various Random Musings

NiNi 

Let's do the best moments in the second life in reverse. So, Ben, you go first.

Ben 

Wen Ning revealing the history of the core to Jiang Cheng. Honestly, the entire set of reveals around the end of the Yi City arc and the reveals at the Lotus Pier, because you get to see how fickle the politics of this era have been. As soon as some folks come forward with some information, everybody's like, “Oh my goodness me, oh no.” 

And I really love the confrontation where Jiang Cheng’s being a bitch again and Wen Ning is like, “I've had enough!” And reveals everything that's going on and you see how devastated Wangji is about this too, with him finally piecing together what was wrong with Wei Wuxian all this time. 

I also really like Wei Wuxian mentoring the juniors in Yi City. Because he's actually good at it. And it makes you sad for what Jiang Cheng was hoping he would get out of Wei Wuxian. Because Wei Wuxian actually is good with young people and good at teaching them stuff.

Shan 

He would have actually been a really good head disciple.

Ben 

Yeah, and it's what he wanted. He genuinely had no designs upon Jiang Cheng's legacy. He really wanted to just support him. He thought that maintaining the dynamic that their fathers had was going to be the best thing of his life. Which is what's so sad about it all.

NiNi 

I think my favorite moments actually are moments within those scenes that you're talking about. When everything goes down at Lotus Pier and Wen Ning spills the tea, there's a moment when Lan Wangji asks, “Was it painful?” And I just fucking broke. He's just found out that this man essentially sacrificed himself for his brother and never told anybody. And he's remembering all the times he got on his ass about it. And all he can think is, “Oh my god, did it hurt him when they did this, when he took out his core?” I was ruined, absolutely fucking ruined. 

And then the time that I giggled, I had a great time, is in the Yi City arc, when Lan Wangji is fighting Xue Yang and Wen Ning is fighting the puppets. And Wei Wuxian is like, well, what am I supposed to do? And then he sees the kids and he's like, “I can do that.” That was a great moment for me as well. 

But then my ultimate moment, and I've been obsessed with this moment since I saw it, is when they're back at Cloud Recesses after they've fled the Jin clan and Lan Xichen is hiding them. And he's talking to Wei Wuxian and Wei Wuxian is starting to think a little bit about what Lan Zhan means to him. And then Lan Zhan walks up, hair down and soft, with two bottles of Wuxian's favorite liquor. They should not be drinking in Cloud Recesses because it's one of their 3000 rules or whatever. He don't care. He loves his man. He missed his man. This man could get anything that he wants. So he comes up with two jugs of the Emperor's Smile and his hair all soft and sexy. And I'm like, “oh, they gone fuck tonight!” They did not, but they should have.

Shan 

[laughs] In our hearts they did.

Ben

Bookworm, favorite moments from the second life?

Bookworm 

One of my favorite movements is the one that I already talked about, the whole confrontation at the steps of the Jin manor when Lan Wangji says that he will walk the single plank path with Wei Wuxian. The reason why it's one of my favorites is, that line is the culmination of 16 years of regret. Lan Wangji was introduced to us as this extremely repressed and extremely by the book, follow the rules guy who grew up in this clan whose politics also seem to be, “We are not gonna do anything unless it becomes a direct and very visible active threat. We're not gonna get into the machinations of the dirty politics stuff. We're just gonna stay above it all.” And then this man sees how not commenting, not acting and letting it become a monster which they can then fight has consequences. And how him not questioning and blindly following all of those rules, how his entire upbringing basically led to the death and complete destruction of the love of his life. And then he had 16 fucking years in solitude regretting all of his actions. Then we finally see Wei Wuxian come back and we see the political world wanting to do the same thing once again to Wei Wuxian. He was like, “Bitch, no, not this time.” And he goes for it. That was such an amazing line and the whole arc of how it came about is why it's one of my favorites. 

Another one, this one's subtler. It's all the looks Jiang Cheng gives Wei Wuxian when they get to the Lotus Pier after their confrontation at the Burial Mounds. Like, he stops and looks at Wei Ying and Wen Ning before they enter, like, “Do you really think you can walk into this place?” And then Wen Ning just walks away. Then they get to the main hall and he turns around once again. And he's like, “Do you think I'm gonna let you into the throne room?”And then Wei Ying just sits on the steps without another word. 

That man is so good. Jiang Cheng’s actor.

Shan 

Let's put some respect on his name. Wang Zhuo Cheng is the actor's name and he is fantastic.

Bookworm 

Fantastic. So good. He is such a nuanced character and there's always at least three different emotions that he's feeling at any given moment. Every time it's just a complicated mess of things that's going on in his head and you can see him playing it out. The first time we see him interact with Wei Wuxian after he's resurrected, you see the doubt and you see that he suspects that this is Wei Wuxian. In that scene somewhere, there's a moment where you can see that he is hopeful but he's also just raging. You see that he's so mad and if he finds out that this is Wei Wuxian, he's gonna tear him apart. That's what that looks means. But he's also so sad that is what it has come to. That was his brother and now he wants to kill him, very rightfully so, but you see him just fighting all of those differing emotions inside him and you see it all on his face. 

Jiang Cheng, on the whole, that character is just extremely complicated, extremely tragic and he was played so beautifully.

Shan 

Y'all talked about some of my favorite moments already, but some additional ones that no one's mentioned yet. First of all, let me just give a shout out to second life Lan Wangji and his sense of humor. That man is fuckin’ funny. He is making fun of Wei Wuxian all the time after he's resurrected. It's so subtle, but it's so well done. I love every scene where he is basically mocking him for not remembering things from the past. [laughs] I love every scene where he's teasing him about, “Bitch, I know who you are because you played our love song as soon as you woke up.” But Wei Wuxian never figures it out. He does not understand that that is the reason Lan Wangji instantly knew who he was. I love all of those scenes.

NiNi 

And then at the end he's like, are we ever gonna give this song a title? And he's like, “Bitch, you really can't remember anything, do you?”

Shan 

Come on! [NiNi and Shan laughs] It already has a title.

Bookworm 

Obviously everybody would have caught it at this point, but in the first arc when they were stuck in the cave fighting the tortoise, when Wei Wuxian asks him what is the name of the song, you see him slowly drifting off, you see the scene blurring, but it is very clear that Lan Wangji mouths “Wangxian” at him, 

Shan 

Yeah, he says it. 

Bookworm

Which is is insane. Like how did they get it in?

Shan

I'm gonna give Wuxian a pass for not perceiving that because he was very feverish and passing out when he said it. When he resurrects in his second life, he doesn't know why he knows the song and he doesn't know where it's from. But it's, like, in his soul and he just plays it without even knowing why. That is why Wangji knows who he is immediately, despite the fact that in the book, he's in a completely different body. In the show, he's wearing that silly mask. All of the scenes connected to that are so funny to me. Obviously, there's a lot of comedy in the drunken shenanigans. 

The other part that I like about the second life arc is the moments where Wei Wuxian kind of gives himself away with his fantasies about Wangji. One of the most stark ones to me is, the only memory he has of his parents is of his mother riding the donkey while his dad leads the donkey down the road. And then we see Wuxian orchestrate recreating this moment with Wangji. He gets on Lil’ Apple and he has Wangji walking beside leading the donkey. And the show never actually comments on it, they just show you. It's so clear, like, in his mind, even when he is still not really fully clicked into his feelings, what his fantasies actually are about the life that he wants with Wangji. I love that. 

And then, this all culminates in the ultimate family moment of him realizing who Sizhui is. I fuckin’ love that scene at the end of the show where Sizhui runs up and tells Wei Wuxian that he knows who he is. And it finally clicks for Wuxian that this is A-Yuan. And without Lan Zhan saying a word, he puts it together that Wangji has rescued this kid who he was helping to raise in the Burial Mounds and raised him as his own son. And that he did that in large part for Wuxian. 

You just see the emotions over Wei Wuxian's face as he just puts this together and looks at Wangji. He starts crying. It's such a perfect, happy, joyful moment, him realizing A-Yuan is okay. He survived. He is this kid that he has already come to love as Sizhui, and then realizing that Wangji did that for him. It was beautiful. And then Sizhui clinging onto his leg and just being so happy to be reunited with his Xian-gege from his previous life. Such good shit! 

The show gives it away early on who Sizhui is. So it's not about a reveal there. It's about the emotional culmination of all of them finally putting together who they are to each other. One of my favorite moments in the whole show.

56:32 Page to Screen (and Audio, and Anime, and Stage, and...)

NiNi 

All right, we're three hours. We gotta wrap this up.

Ben 

The only thing I’ll mention in terms of other adaptations, there is an anime version of this, which better mimics the pacing and structure of the novelization. Also, the giggly version of Wei Wuxian that you get in the anime better reflects what I felt like I was reading. Though I do appreciate the way Xiao Zhan approached the character, who realized that all that giggling would be aggravating as hell. He instead does like a very peculiar smirk, which I think is a much better choice for the drama.

Shan

Yeah, it works better on the screen. In terms of story structure, I do prefer the novel structure. Intercutting between the present and flashbacks, it preserves the mysteries a lot better. The show, if you're paying close attention, you can solve everything far in advance because you're just given a lot more information in chronological order that you didn't have while reading the book. So, I do prefer the structure of the book for the mystery purpose. But the show, I think, made the right choices for a screen adaptation.

Bookworm 

We should probably talk about the ending.

Ben

I will say that I don't hate it. Considering the horrors that Twig and I have lived through in queer cinema and BL, they didn't brutally slaughter them or break them up in an unforgivable way at the end of the narrative. I think ending on an ambiguous note is one of the nicest things that this show did for these characters considering the censored nature of this. Everybody who follows any amount of lore knows this is based upon a novel that's way spicier. By not ending on a dour note, I think it makes the curious audience more likely to go read the novels if they want to see what the explicit romance looks like. And I think that's an overall good choice considering the obstacles they were up against. I don't think it's great, but I'm not mad about it. 

The whole show is censored, we know a romance is occurring, but technically one isn't.

Shan 

Bookworm, how did you feel about it?

Bookworm 

Like I said before, I am very used to watching stories culminate in a very ambiguous ending. I've seen so many movies, just ends in a shot of like, I don't know, two people standing staring into the distance. Like Ben said, you are aware that this is a censored BL. That is one of the things that impacts how you receive this ending a lot. 

I read the books first, I could see all of the things that they had to walk around to make this get through the censors but also make an effort to depict the romance in any way they can. When I got to the ending, I will be honest, I started screaming—

Shan 

You did, I was there. It was actual screaming.

Bookworm 

When he stopped Wei Ying, and Wei Ying turns around and they go into the song, I was heartbroken. I was so mad. At that point, I have all the information. I know that they're not gonna end how they ended in the books. But still, it was so heartbreaking to watch this man walk away from Wei Wuxian. It is such an out of character moment. There is no way the Lan Wangji that I read about and the Lan Wangji that was depicted in the show for so long would walk away from Wei Wuxian. 

When we eventually got to the end of the song and Lan Zhan calls Wei Wuxian’s name and he just turns around and we end on this frame where we assume that Wei Wuxian sees him and just breaks into the smile… there was no other ending where the art could survive and get to its audience.

I'm sad that we did not see the actual story, but it was left open to our imagination that Lan Wangji found him again and they're gonna get back together, and I was happy with that.

Shan

Almost every cdrama ends this way. And this includes het cdramas, not just queer ones. Where, if a character has been morally gray, if a character has used magic, if a character has done anything that precludes them from being a perfect, pure person, they're not going to get a happy ending. They're going to get an ambiguous ending. This is just how cdramas work. So, I read the ending as exactly what needed to happen to get this show to air. 

Absolutely, there's no way in hell that Wangji would ever become the chief cultivator because he fuckin’ hates clan politics and he's bad at it. No way that he would ever do this or that anyone would ever want him to. But I recognized that instantly as Chinese nationalism rearing its head for censorship reasons. He needed to devote himself to the state. He had to separate from Wei Wuxian because they weren't allowed to have a happy ending because they use magic and because they did morally gray things. Wei Wuxian had to go and wander the world alone to atone for his sins, quote unquote. These are all really classic censorship things.

I feel strongly that the creators of this show trusted the fans to know why they needed to do these things and to just brush off the pieces of it that don't make sense and understand the real ending. Outside of the trappings of the plot of what happened there, we saw them exchange these meaningful looks. They did a fucking duet together. And then we end on this beautiful scene of Wei Wuxian standing on a cliff playing their song and turning around after hearing Wangji call his name. And smiling as his eyes fill with tears. That is a gorgeous ending. I am so impressed that they were able to work that in in a way that would not preclude the other things they needed to do for censorship reasons.

NiNi 

I'm annoyed, I'm just gonna say it, but I also know why it happens. But the fact that it ends ambiguously is not what bothers me. I really just do not believe that Lan Wangji would ever take over the clan or that he would let Wei Wuxian leave while he did it. It just doesn't fly for me even with everything going on with Lan Xichen. To me they should have just ended where they see Wen Ning and Lan Sizhui off and then they could have just ridden off into the sunset. 

Shan

Yeah, they definitely could not do that for censorship reasons, but I hear you.

NiNi 

I know, I feel like that's the ending I would have been the most satisfied with. Even if the last shot of them was just of them there, standing together and Lan Wangji giving him that look that says we have to part or Wei Wuxian walking away and Lan Wangji standing there, even that would have been more ambiguous to me because I could have spun it in my head as “oh, he's just watching his man walk away and then he's going to run and catch up with him.” But the whole part where he goes back to the clan and he becomes the clan leader, that just doesn't fly with me.

Bookworm 

NiNi, you know what the fix for this is. You just have to read the books. That's the plug.

Shan 

Read the books and a long list of fanfic that I will be sending you later today.

Bookworm

Yes.

NiNi 

Already, Twig has provided, I have read the smutty parts of the books, thank you, Twig. So I have read the full and proper ending and I am quite satisfied with that. And Shan is gonna send me a list of fics, so I’m fine. I'm not a fic girl usually, but in this story it's absolutely necessary. Just too many gaps that I need to fill.

Shan

That's why there are 50,000 fanfics on AO3 for this show. [laughs]

Bookworm 

There are so many fanfics. At one point you read so many of them that you forget what's canon and what's fanon. That's how it goes.

NiNi 

I'm waiting for Shan to curate me a list.

Bookworm 

I do wanna include an earnest plug for the books, though. I think the creators want you to, they've done their best.

Shan 

Yeah, they want you to go there.

Bookworm 

Exactly, they want you to go to the books. And without spoiling much of it, if you want a little bit motivation to go to the books, Lan Wangji only gets drunk once in the show. It happens so many times in the books. 

NiNi 

More than once, more than once. He passes out a few times.

Shan 

He does, but there are more extended drunken shenanigan scenes in the book. There are several.

Bookworm

The wall slowly comes down. Wei Wuxian gets slowly just unraveled, trying to understand what the fuck is going on with Lan Zhan, why is he acting like this when he's drunk? Those are my favorite sequences and I hope it convinces you to go read the books.

NiNi 

Between now and May it's textbooks and case studies. After that we'll see what happens.

Bookworm 

I'm talking to the people, NiNi. I'm also in the same graduate school hell with you.

Ben 

Begging the listeners to go read the books.

Shan

Go read these damn books.

01:07:04 Afterlife: The Impact of The Untamed on BL and Fandom

Ben

We're living in the post-Untamed world. This show brought a shit ton of people to BL who had not been here before. And a bunch of people who had not engaged with Chinese daytime dramas, probably ever, genuinely started watching them after this. Despite how the censors may feel about a queer/not queer work being so popular, this show has had a huge impact on many people's willingness to engage with Chinese media. After the addicted stuff, we had basically written off China. And The Untamed, even five years later, continues to be the reason why people keep hoping that the Chinese creative teams will be able to get more stories to us.

The downside of all of this, fans are still super feverish about this. And AO3 ends up getting banned in China.

Shan 

There was, as always happens in fandom, people writing real person fiction about the actors instead of fan fiction about the characters. And Xiao Zhan's fans got very upset about people posting smutty real person fiction about him.

Ben 

We've talked about some of the fan issues with getting overly possessive about the idols and the actors. This is part of what the party cracked down on. After Word of Honor maybe pushed the envelope too far and the ensuing drama after that, we haven't really gotten much big Chinese BL since then. We started seeing more of it again last year, but there are still projects from, like, 2020 that have been shelved that we've been hoping get released to us. 

It's complicated because you can tell that the powers that be want the attention and tourism associated with it, but it doesn't conform to some of their civic management goals. It's not like the Chinese people are any different than everyone else in the world. They eat the fuck out of BL. Like, they're the primary consumers of 2gether. So, I don't know.

Shan 

There's been a real dearth of quality Chinese BL since. The few productions that started to come out last year are mostly being produced in other countries like in Singapore or in Hong Kong. We're starting to see danmei productions and adaptations happening in Thailand or in Taiwan, that's how these things are getting made now. 

Despite that, the fandom around this show is immense. It is not slowing down. The books have been out for 10 years. The show has been out for six years. New fans still find it every day. Create new fan works every day. New meta all the time. New fanfic all the time. It endures. This is a story that has really connected with people globally. It's something pretty amazing to see.

NiNi 

I would like to personally thank Xiao Zhan and Wang Yibo in particular. Because sirs, you did what you needed to do.

Shan 

Amen, sister.

NiNi 

And what you needed to do was break my heart on a regular basis and be extremely attractive while doing it. Good job.

Ben

I'm really surprised by how much the show succeeded. They did not have a lot of money. They were filming in kind of unsafe ways, two people literally died making this show. But it's kind of wild how much genuine talent they got on this production. Like, nobody's really slacking on this. It's a really impressive project considering this is a web drama.

It's hard to really give final thoughts on the show. I just end up incredibly impressed by what they managed to pull off.

NiNi 

I think to close, I will just say a short summary of everything we've just talked about as follows: The Untamed is a story about an itinerant, freelance, accidental genocidal maniac and the man who pays all his bills and defends his life. And it's amazing. And you should go watch it. That's all we have to say.

Shan

It's a must watch, I think, from The Conversation.

NiNi 

What's the point of even rating it? 

Ben 

Yeah, it's not one that I really wanna give a real rating to. Under the Ben scope, it'd be like a 9. Most people should watch it.

Shan 

Yeah, it kind of transcends that ratings thing that we normally do. If you care about BL, if you care about queer media, if you care about Asian drama, you should watch this show. It's foundational.

Bookworm 

This is a very carefully constructed narrative with so many moving parts. And I think that's the appeal. It just gives you so much to noodle on. Don't be scared that this will not be your cup of tea.

Shan

You'll find something to love.

Bookworm

There is so much going on that something will grab you and you will just be forever obsessed with the story. Go watch it or go read it and then come talk to us about it. Tag us.

NiNi

That is going to wrap us up after three hours and 20 minutes of unedited time on—

Ben 

I'm so hungry.

NiNI

—The Untamed.

Shan 

We did pretty good!

NiNi 

I've been chomping on grapes this entire time, thank god.

Bookworm 

I have to go make dinner. 

NiNi

Alright, we out. Say bye to the people, Bookworm.

Bookworm

Bye people!

NiNi 

Say bye to the people, Shan. 

Shan 

Bye, y'all.

NiNi

Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben

Peace!

[buniibloom]

tw for yapping + opinions pls don't jump me but i've been rereading mdxs and i wanna yap sobsobs

Y'know I partially like Lan Wangji, a little. Cause he seems like an overall interesting character....to a degree anyway.

If I'm being genuine, I suppose the only reason I even tolerate him as character is solely because compared to MXTX'S Hua Cheng and Luo Binghe, his life doesn't revolve fully around Wei Wuxian if that makes sense? Like he helps people and all that because he wants too and not because his love interest wanted that? I could be wrong though I usually skip all his scenes for Wen Ning and everyone else lmao

Idk something about him is...not okay for me. Like I said, he's tolerable but if I have to be honest I genuinely cannot bring myself to like him because he's so. Urgh.

I usually like enemies to lovers but the way he hates (?) Wei Wuxian in the flashback sequences is so....not okay with me ngl 😭 like I knew they were endgame before I picked up the series but still, the way he acted and treated Wei Wuxian was very much the same reason why I don't like Mu Qing much. Not necessarily actions as it is the personality and LWJ is such a dick in my personal opinion.

Yeah fine he likes WWX later on but he's still. Uck to me. Idk why people like him more than Jiang Cheng 😭 Jiang Cheng has flaws and feels like an interesting, realistic and fleshed out character but Lan Wangji is...a Gary Stu I think. Never done a single thing wrong, is so utterly perfect....idk I cannot stand characters like that. Even THE Gary Stu my sweet Binghe had his own flaws and problems but Lan Wangji just exists. Right there.

If I'm also being honest I absolutely despise him because of the smut scenes. It could simply be due to the translations though because apparently the English translation isn't too accurate? But still even so...

1) Homie I know you regret it but why did you still kiss a guy blindfolded just like that without warning? That's so fucking weird. IDGAF if you're the male lead because genuinely no offense but if this was a girl doing that literally everyone would be mad because "consent is key". AND IT SHOULD REMAIN SO D:<

2) That dream sequence chapter....why are you fantasizing about forcing your (younger) self on (younger) Wei Ying...and why would you also fuck while watching your younger selves fuck?? Is that not weird?? Even SVSSS's smut scenes which made me uncomfortable (I'm pretty vanilla with stuff like that) felt better than...THAT.

I don't like wangxian and I just. I don't like LWJ. I'll tolerate him but I dislike him a lot. He's so basic. Basic ass bitch. 😭 Why are you as the male lead so basic. Look at Binghe. Look at Hua Cheng. They're male leads and aren't so...basic. and annoying. Bleghhh

-- I'm adding the correct tags this time so plsplspls do not jump me if you like wangxian and LWJ. I still like the ship but the only way I can tolerate them is if Lan Wangji is a bottom because somehow he's better like that.

[myblurryreality]

MDZS headcanons (& fanon) takes that no one asked for! 👍🏽

- Wei Wuxian would have left the Jiang sect if the war never happened

- In the right circumstances, Jin Zixuan and Wei Wuxian could be friendly (idk Abt friends)

- Lan Xichen and Jiang Yanli would have made a cute and content couple, like the quiet constant love.

- Jiang Fengmain and Wei Wuxian's parents drifted apart but there was no true bad blood

- Qingheng-Jun was selfish and paralyzed with it, he was too narrow-minded to see the hurtful ripple effects his decisions would have.

- I headcanon that though they look enough alike to be referred to as twins, Lan Xichen favors his father and Lan Wangji favors his mother.

- I think Wei Wuxian would have developed Guido eventually, even without the war.

- In the modern world Jiang Yanli would have gone low contact with some of her family.

- Wei Wuxian, similarly, would have done so with the Jiang's in the modern world

- Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji would have gotten together during the lectures under the right circumstances.

- This is not a headcanon, but I relate to Lan Wangji's mortification over getting a crush, in this economy.

- In a soulmate AU, where one gets the name of their soulmate at 25 that only you and your soulmate can see, Jiang Cheng gets his to only realize it's someone he killed or he killed someone dear to them. (This is a fic idea)

- Lan Wangji (15) is the youngest of the young masters we were introduced to in his generation and Jin Zixuan (16) is the oldest.

- I feel like Jin Zixuan and Wen Qing would have made a good political match. She's cunning and experienced enough to navigate the trappings of the Jin Clan and guide her husband.

- I headcanon that the Yu clan while politically ruthless when marrying off their daughters, were generally decent people for gentry folks. Madam Yu's personality was all her own.

- I also headcanon them as matriarchal and that they offered to take in Wei Wuxian but Jiang Fengmain refused.

- Madam Jin is a bitch but I don't think she's Madam Yu bad.

- Wei Wuxian would have made something of himself even if he had never been taken into a clan, I could see him becoming a farmer.

- While I much prefer the book canon, the handfasting scene in 'The Untamed' adaption opens up so many plot doors.

[lhaewielsfandomocs]

CQL/MDZS / OC 1: Head Disciple Xu

And ofc dramas have eaten my head and in particular way MDZS still holds a very special place in my heart. So I created several OCs. this is one, because I love Jiang Cheng and I love giving him competent and reliable staff. Here's the first.

OG posts: here and here.

He is Head Disciple Bai Zhang Xu, Head Disciple Xu for pretty much everyone in the Yunmeng Jiang Sect.

If I had to assign him a role, he is the dad friend of the group. Considering the general unruliness of JC's disciples, when WWX ""defected"", JC decided that he really someone less unhinged as his Head Disciple, because let's face it, the man has A LOT on his plate, he's got accountancy, and spreadsheets, and a sect to run and he really needs someone a bit more focused and less unhinged.

The choice fell on Bai Zhang Xu, former rogue cultivator who joined the Jiang sect during the war for some easy money and ultimately stayed because JC is a great leader with a heart capable of caring about every single one of the people underneath him like family.

Which never really happened to Head Disciple Xu before joining the Jiang sect, he used to be really bitter about family, as he lost his parents very early on and grew up on the street basically.

Bai Zhang Xu is fiercely protective of the Jiang Sect and especially of their leader, he has been ready to throw hands with THE Hanguang-jun because once his micro-frown translated as "gtfo my way JIANG WANYIN, you TRASH" and Zhang Xu was not having it, like "MY leader has WELCOMED each one of us regardless, he has given us WORTH and SOMETHING TO LOOK FORWARD, HOW DARE YOU."

But most importantly, JC has made him realize that he can be a good second in command.

Zhang Xu will be the one dragging out of the office JC at 2 AM cos the paperwork is not finished, but "Jiang-zongzhu, YOU NEED SLEEP, PLS GO THE FUCK TO SLEEP, I will finish thes annoying papers, PLS, it's 2AM, you have to wake up early tomorrow, cos Old Man Yao is coming to propose one of her daughters to you, yes, don't worry, my team has already prepared the traps, they will not even get through the entrance."

He will also be (C)That Bitch™ when JC is way too tired or done to yell around his grievances. He will be the first one to check on JC and drag him out of the battlefield when injured.

When WWX comes back, he raises several brows, but when he sees that JC is chill with it he relaxes.

MORE LORE

Bai Zhang Xu (白张许)

In my head he is 2-3 years older than Jiang Cheng, which is good I think, because JC will listen to him if he pulls the “older brother voice” when his sect leader stays too late crouched on his spreadsheets, or forgets to eat, or will go on nothing but tea and spite.

As mentioned, he is a former rogue cultivator. His father is still alive and currently retired in a beautiful house in Yunping, but they are originally from the Yueyang area, Shaanxi.

He originally signed for Sunshot campaign to be with the Qinghe Nie, but sabres were really not his things and it showed, so he heard that the decimated Jiang sect was looking for manpower and wouldn’t be as picky.

And boy, oh boy. He had seen decimated sects, but he really did NOT expect three teenagers looking Extremely Tired and with Wildly Different Opinions On What To Do.

The pay was good enough, he gave this sect a chance.

He decided to fully commit to the Jiang Sect after being literally saved from death by Wen hands and weapons by Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian, and then being offered the amazing cooking Yanli had made once he was healed.

He had seen how the underlings were treated in the other sects - the encampment was big, but he had eyes - and the Jiang Sect was truly actually worrying about the safety of all its disciples and saw everyone as a precious life, even at its own disadvantage.

He then learned about the Lotus Pier massacre and he decided to stay, like pretty much everyone who joined the Jiang sect during the war. The sentiment was “these teens are going to get hurt in some way, they need support and manpower more than we need their money”.

And so he stayed.

He was promoted quite abruptly as Head Disciple.

Figure this: your sect leader has locked himself in his room, you can’t hear anything because there are bloody silencing spells and talismans all around. The rest of the disciples are running around like wild hogs and the annual reports are due to be submitted and the Chief Cultivator has made it clear that he does not care if JC has lost both brother and sister, he shoyld be HAPPY that the dangerous Yiling Laozu has been defeated and his dear sister, the late Jin Xiao Furen, has been avenged, but the Jiang disciples know the truth and they are ready to throw hands if anyone bothers their zhongzhu.

But the reports need to be done and if the disciples actually threw hands with anyone they would do horrible ends, so Bai Zhang Xu takes the paperworks, gathers everyone in a circle and starts clumsily working on them - his handwriting is horrible, the room everyone is in is absolute chaos. This for a week. But at least a quarter of the tax is done, albeit skewered a little, because He Shao, former fraud artist, said that “it’s gonna be fiiiiiinnnneeee, no one reads these things anyway”.

Anyway, JC come out of his room a week after, his face hollow, bags under his eyes, eyes red and puffy, possibly bloodied knuckles and scratches, hair disheveled and the look of a man ready to bite anyone who dares come near him.

JC sees the disciples around the paperwork, snatches it from Bai Zhang Xu’s hands and reads it. He looks at the disciples and gives them the Nod Of Approval, then gathers everything and goes to his office. He does raise a brow and motions BZX to follow.

BZX will see that his leader has screamed himself hoarse, but he does not comment.

JC sits at the desk, puts the pile of papers on the side, pulls out a blank paper, scribbles it, stamps it with the Yunmeng Jiang sigil and hands it to BZX, motioning him to read.

BZX reads.

JC has just elected him Head Disciple for his hard work and willingness to harness the feral gremlins who currently compose the entirety of the Jiang disciples.

BZX is speechless. Not a couple of years ago he was a nobody and now he is head disciple of the Jiang clan! He really wants to hug his sect leader, but the man is all spikes like a porcupine and if he tried the feat he’d end up dead.

Instead he kowtows - JC Nods Again, then motions him to go, he has PAPERS and REPORTS to do. And BZX goes, but the first act as Head Disciple is a huge “Sect Leader Jiang needs to be taken care of, so gather around, we need meds, food and drinks”

“But chief, we don’t have money!”

“Well… He Shao? Anything we can do?”

“How much should I skew things?”

“Plausibly enough not to raise everyone’s wrath.”

“I gotchu chief!”

BZX, in that week only, has gained pretty much everyone’s respect, so it just comes natural calling him Head Disciple.

And BZX launches there his career.

[web-novel-polls]

MXTX Side Character Upper Bracket

Jiang Cheng from MDZS

Submission 1: Extremely traumatized yet also somehow the most normal and functional by the end. Huge bitch but I (and at least one of the other characters) think he deserves to be even worse after everything he's been through

Submission 2: Simultaneously badass and the most cringefail man. Extremely funny and stylish but still manages to be very uncool. Cries a lot. Also he's lost a lot of tumblr polls—let's give him another shot! We definitely love him more than his dad did!

Submission 3: He's got mommy issues AND daddy issues. He loves his sister and his shige so much. He's traumatised and incredibly competent. He rebuilt his whole sect! He's an asshole (affectionate). He's purple! He's got the coolest weapon ever conceived. I'm so worried about his blood pressure basically all the time.

Tianlang-jun from SVSSS

Submission: Incredible character who does it like him

#bro tlj read porn abt his son and his teacher and just assumed thats what happened #and then tried to hook his nephew up with said teacher #he also is introduced lounging in a coffin #oh and he is a sugar baby #its true no one does it like him (via @galsjustwannahavefun)

Additional Propaganda

Liu Qingge from SVSSS

#great sect brother! Dependable reliable and most of the time sorta sane #Great big brother to his younger sister #Stablest person around by a lot (still pretty off the rails) #Fought someone better than him every day for five years to get his best friend's body back for a burial #Got rescued from the plot for the specific purpose of saving someone back #and then had to watch that someone repeatedly not let him save them (via @rights-for-redshirts)

["Anti-Propaganda" that attacks other characters is NOT allowed. Please only give reasons to vote FOR a character.]

[wangxian-xianwang-shipper]

💙❤️ WANGXIAN FIC RECOMMENDATION 💙❤️

I would like to discuss a merger…

Liebing

Summary:

“Oh god, Lan Zhan, you’re so good at this,” Wei Ying moaned, gripping the sides of the lectern as Lan Zhan slammed into him from behind. Thank god it was nailed to the floor. “What if we break Lan Qiren’s precious lectern? Isn’t it an antique?”

“If Wei Ying breaks the lectern then he will be punished,” Lan Zhan growled, biting up Wei Ying’s neck.

“Oh so it would be all my fault?” Wei Ying teased, leaning his head to the side to give Lan Zhan better access.

“You are the one holding on to it,” Lan Zhan replied, tightening his grip on Wei Ying’s hips as if to prove his point.

“I can’t believe you won’t take any responsibility, that is so unfair…” Wei Ying whined.

Lan Zhan grasped Wei Ying’s chin and turned his head to kiss him deeply with a hell of a lot of tongue. “Wei Ying shut the fuck up and don’t break the fucking lectern,” he murmured when he pulled away.

(Lan Zhan and Wei Ying are bickering co-workers…until they’re not.)

Rating: Explicit

Archive Warning:nNo Archive Warnings Apply

Category: M/M

Fandom: 陈情令 | The Untamed (TV)

Relationship:.Lan Zhan | Lan Wangji/Wei Ying | Wei Wuxian

Characters: Lan Zhan | Lan Wangji, Wei Ying | Wei Wuxian, Nie Huaisang, Lan Huan | Lan Xichen, Jiang Cheng | Jiang Wanyin, Jiang Yanli, Wen Qing (Modao Zushi), Wen Ning | Wen Qionglin, Lan Qiren, Su She | Su Minshan

Additional Tags:

Office AU, Company merger, office rivals, Don’t ask me what they do at this company I don’t know, HR Officer Wen Qing, Boss Lan Qiren, Funny, Soft, Sweet, Enemies to Lovers, For Lan Zhan it was love at first sight, For Wei Ying it takes a little longer, I apologise in advance for how much Wei Ying says but you hate me Lan Zhan in this fic, Lan Zhan in fact never hated him, I wrote actual explicit sex scenes into this fic, Be nice about them or I’ll never write sex scenes ever again, Business trip with only one bed, Wei Ying gets sick and Lan Zhan looks after him, Wei Ying lies about having a date, Kissing, TouchingSex Dreams, Parts of this plot are inspired by the movie the hating game, Fooling around in the photocopier room, Not Su She friendly, Su She is a little bitch in this fic, Nice Jiang Siblings, Bestie Huaisang, I would like to note that no lecterns were damaged in the making of this fic, Flirting, Dirty Talk, Anal Sex, Anal Fingering, Typical wangxian misunderstandings, Fuck buddy situation except that it very much is not that, There is some angst but not too bad, Happy Ending where Wangxian finally realise what everyone else knows they are destined to be

Language: English

Series: Part 68 of Wangxian fics

Stats:

Published: 2025-02-17

Completed: 2025-02-19

Words: 17,319

Chapters: 4/4

[diivineray]

my muses from pure innocent baby angel to raw sinful bastard. IDK I WAS BORED DNFFDSKLFDS

KURROOOOHHH is #1 cuz despite how he does look like hes all serious and grump he is the sweetest boy ever he'd never hurt anyoneeeeeeee. hes too good

Freya my baby my fav oc- biased thoughts here but shes perf, she has evil literally begging her to do bad but she fights it off despite it threatening to overtake her, and she refuses to let

Xiao Xingchen is #3 cuz he is powerful and can kill so many evil thingys but he legit was too good and believed in ppl so much he was pretty much fooled and didnt deserve anything he got okay. he is an angel

Cheng Xiaoshi - his boyfriend literally fucking over the space time continuum cuz he can't bear to live life without him. ALL THE INFO YOU NEED. ray of sunshine HES PURE LIGHT.

Xie Lian looks like he couldn't hurt a fly, could actually kill you but won't CUZ HES BEEN THROUGH 800 YEARS OF SUFFERING AND JUST WANTS TO LIVE HIS LIFE AND VIBE. xie lian is fourth cuz he did do some shit but sunshine always prevails. yeah looking at you bwx.

Inuaysha - he's grumpy, but its just cuz he's had to grow up on his own in a harsh world, and judged for who he is. he has such a big heart, and he cares deeply even if he doesnt always know how to express it. I have such a weakness to these characters SIGH. though hes slightly naughty cuz this boy will punch your mother dont test him

Ruggieeee- i only wrote him for a bit but I love him cuz its nice being able to relate to someone who is poor and also went to school with a bunch of spoiled ass kids. Hes lowkey on the naughty list cuz he is an opportunist and will do whatever it takes to win and get ahead. hence why he helped leona with cheating. he uses his street smarts and I respect his grind.

Olivier - he actually should be this low but-- i forgot about him and needed to shove him in here somewhere. HES A GOOD BOY HES GRUMPY BUT WHEN YOUR BEST FRIEND IS LITERALLY THE SUN AND YOU'RE IN LOVE WITH HIM ITS JUST WHAT YOU GOTTA BE I GUESS.

Jiang Cheng- my baby my squeaky toy, my babyyyyy. hes also lowkey on the baddie list, cuz while he is so emotional he is BAD at expressing himself so he comes off standoffish, angry and he gets a bad rep for it. but he cares deeply, hes hurt and has suffered a lot for why he is the way he is, but hes got issues so he's inbetween the good and bad line.

Pei Ming - HE IS A GOOD BOY but hes got some things that land him a little lower on this list. hes a whore but hes a good and respectful whore. hes noble, honorable and he's fiercely protective. but he's a tumor for a reason, he has his eyes on climbing the ladder to success and hes gonna do what hes gotta to reach the top. he definitely has lines he wont cross tho.

Wei Wuxian- everyone's favorite boy. my favorite boy. I love him so much, he's been the hero, and the villain. he's been it all and while his heart has always been in the right place, hes lower on the list cuz of this boy and some of the shit he did okay. hes a good boy, got a beautiful hubby, and a fat ass so hes on here.

Xerxes break is actually THE muse, THE character. the baddest bitch out of my whole roster and yes its entirely biased cuz he is my favorite character literally ever. hes on the naughty list, a little lower than wei wuxian cuz he is someone who while he is atoning for his sins, he also knows life is not perfect and will willingly sully his hands into the filth and do the dirty work to protect others from having to do the same at times. he also knows that life is going to happen, and you cant always avoid it and will teach that lesson in harsh ways. he isnt one to sugar coat, he will push you in the pool and expect you to figure out to swim or die.

Jax, he's a piece of shit but he's my piece of shit. if they aren't mean then I don't want them !! Jax is so funny, and while I do not write him anymore, he was fun and he's on this list cuz he's a ho and an asshole and so yeah he gets a spot on this list cuz its so obvious who dia be liking from these shows

Hua Cheng isnt all that bad but he is a ghost king and he got that position by being absolutely ruthless. he cares for one person and one person only. he honestly couldnt care about anyone else lmao. and u know what he right. also hims sexy

I think Leona and Hua Cheng are kind of on the same level, he's a baddie and he cares for very little unless it pertains to him. hes doing better on that, but he's very much unmotivated unless its gonna benefit him in some way. hes so smart and strong, he's def a top contender and he's also a whore so... yeah. another one of my top fav muses

Mammon - he s a tsun and a whore for both me and money AND HONESTLY SAME. hes on this part of the list cuz he is a prince of hell for one, but he is the sweetest and i love him even with how greedy for everything he is. he gets a pass, its in his nature. i mean look at him???? hes beautiful bottom ass bitch ughhh

The fact that a prince of hell is before Michael is crazy--- but listen. michael is crazy. he is the chief of angels but he runs thing with an iron fist. doesn't believe in freedom of choice. hes traditional and believes heaven is meant to ruled as such. doesnt invite free will and punishes angels harshly if they stray by ripping their wings off and sending them to the mortal realm. he is the judge jury and executioner. what he says goes, he's manipulative and isnt afraid to hurt humans if it means getting them to bend to his will. he's a psychopath lowkey and I love it.

Naraku - HE'S A NASTY ASS BITCH WHAT MORE DO YOU NEED? this bitch ass motherfucker is so crusty and I'm weak for it. he's so nasty and I know it but IDK WHY ITS HOT. he be wanting everyone around him to suffer, whatever it takes to taint that god damn shikon jewel and he do it bro. he loves causing chaos, loves tricking people, loves hurting them and making them do his bidding.. hes terrible i love him

to be fair my bby seth is going through his atonement but like, a lot of the shit he did was.... REALLY BAD. he become an evil god for a reason, and the reasons behind his actions weren't meant to protect himself but it was pretty terrible. dawg killed babies and women, and im sorry but he looked so good DNFLDFKLSFD . but hes learning hes doing better. hes also whore coded, breedable, his brother literally tried to get him pregnant so like 😩its not just me okay.

FIZZ IS MY BABY AND TBH IM NGL I MISS WRITING HIM. This boy is my baby, hes only this far down cuz he's hellborn and equally kind of terrible on hell's standards but hes BABY. he is me highkey, a cutie pie and horny little freak. like i cant even deny it at this point. he's also disabled and that representation will always be important to me, knowing you have limitations and it still doesnt stop you. he also got a hot ass boyfriend who loves the fck out of him. we nasty together and im not ashamed. i love this clown.

Kind of mad at how Alastor is technically my most evil muse I've written sOBS. but he is. serial killer having been shot and sent to hell and being one of the most powerful overlords. I know a lot of people seem to think he has a soft spot for the hotel and maybe he does but I think he def is still out for himself and will turn on them if his plans call for it. i wouldn't trust this dude with nothing like there's no way. hes always got something up his sleeve, thinking ahead. and for me with the way I write him I do not believe he gives out anything without getting something back in return.