#Language Evolution

[aardappel-van-mijn-oog]

[dedalvs]

Do you have any thoughts on the translation scene in Goncharov? I haven't seen a lot of people talking about it but it's a pretty pivotal scene and given that what they're doing is not dissimilar to a conlang imo i figured you might have some good insights

*sigh*

I figured someone was going to ask this eventually...

So listen, the whole translation scene in Goncharov is not technically conlang-related. It's actually even more brilliant, but it's hard to explain.

Since the tutor doesn't speak Russian and the nurse only speaks Italian, the aphasiac Soviet spy has to use an impromptu series of hand gestures to indicate that he either does or doesn't understand. I mean, you can glean that from the subtitles, so that's no big revelation.

But this is where it gets weird and...I mean, linguistically controversial, to say the least, but it was the 70s.

As the tutor and the nurse attempt to communicate with him and each other, they begin to winnow down their vocabulary to words that are cognate between Italian and Russian. And through this back and forth, the languages seem like they're blending, but what they're actually doing is reversing the sound changes of Italian and Russian until they both end up, improbably, at Proto-Indo-European. It's like something you'd see in Fantasia, but aural! It's...utterly bizarre.

And, of course the final word that the nurse and the tutor utter simultaneously, the one that brings the spy to tears, is *bʰewdʰ- "awake, aware"—which, I mean, knowing how the rest of the movie goes...yeah. Bombshell. And it's crazy to me that they didn't subtitle it! Like, you pretty much have to be a PIE scholar to get that, and the entire subplot hinges on it! I mean, bold isn't the word for it. Unfathomable. Cannot believe they got away with that...

Rumor has it that Morris Halle consulted on the film, but he's adamantly refused to talk about. (For years, he'd end all his guest lectures with, "Are they any questions about anything other than Goncharov?") He never once confirmed whether or not he was involved (of course, he wasn't credited, but that wouldn't be unusual for the time even if he was involved).

I can see why you'd think it would be a conlang, but the reverse-engineered sound changes were so precise, and the whole thing so by the book, that there really wasn't any actual invention. It was all Indo-European!

[highlyentropicmind]

How "porn" came to mean "good"

If you go to reddit and look for subs with the word "porn" in the name most of them are not about pornography or sex

r/FoodPorn is about pictures of food

r/EarthPorn and r/natureporn are about pictures of landscapes

r/ExposurePorn is about photos with a long exposure

Not even r/HumanPorn is about pornography, it is just about pictures of people

And these are just a few examples, I could keep going, but the point is that in these cases the word "porn" means "good" or "high quality"

And it's not just subreddit names, people use it in conversation. For example I remember one time I saw a gif of someone juggling in slow motion and people in the comments said it was "juggling porn". They didn't mean it was sexual at all, they meant that this person was really really good at juggling

In fact if you browse reddit for an hour I'm sure you'll find at least one example of people using the word "porn" in this non-sexual way

This is a very interesting example of linguistic evolution, and it is evidence of a remarkably sex-positive attitude

People who see sex and porn as shameful or "dirty" could never use "porn" in this non-sexual way to mean high quality

I think this started with people sharing videos or photos of food that looked really good, prompting someone to joke that it was like "food porn" and it stuck

Afterwards people kept making that joke about high quality pictures of food, and then started applying it to high quality pictures of anything, until the word "porn" acquired a new meaning

If this trend continues it could escape containment and be used in the real world

I wouldn't be surprised if in ten years a small business owner is taken to court for indecency just because their store is named something like "Bike Porn" and he just sells high quality bicycles

And I wouldn't be surprised if this person won his trail, forcing a judge to admit that the word "porn" has a non-sexual meaning, and opening the floodgates for this word to be used openly without any issue

[quark-nova]

can you explain that "french is evolving into cooler french" thing? im a linguistics student and i took a look at the article but it went over my head. i'm going to send it to my professor but i'm curious if you have anything to say about it 🖤🩶🤍

Okay so the first thing to know is that spoken French and written French are two pretty different languages! Not only is written French written in a very different way from which it is pronounced (with the orthography more accurately reflecting 15th century Medieval French), but spoken French even has a different grammar on some key points!

This grammar stuff actually means that spoken French is better seen under a completely different angle. While "subject" pronouns are written as full separate words, they are now, especially in spoken French, "clitics", parasites of the verb that can only occur just before it and act as a second conjugation. You can't split them up with an adverb or anything, like "you actually can" do in English.

Several kinds of clitics add up in front of the verb in a specific order, with the pronunciation of each changing depending on the surrounding context. For instance, where written French has "ils ont" (they have) and "ils vont" (they go), spoken French has "iz õ" and "i võ", with the pronoun mutating depending on the context. These clitics also appear to be more mandatory, as one would expect of conjugations. While written French could have "Jean a" (John has), it is more natural in spoken French to say "Jã il a" (John he has).

(Yes, writing French in a phonetic way looks cursed, but simultaneously much cooler than how written French usually looks)

While this all exists on a spectrum, spoken French shows more and more traits of what is called "polysynthetic languages", a relatively small category of languages where many words are glued on the verb on a specific order, forming the core of the phrase. This blurs the distinction between what is and isn't a word, a distinction reinforced by the fact spoken French doesn't have an immediate written form to decide on where word boundaries lie.

[variablejabberwocky]

*snerk*

so i mentioned a grandparent's sibling earlier and was trying to think if there was a term for it like sibling, or pibling (parent's sibling), or nibling (sibling's kid) and couldn't remember one

well...i thought of one now: gibling (grandparent's sibling)

(i don't think this is gonna take off or anything but i found it funny so im sharing)

[omegaphilosophia]

The Philosophy of Natural Language

The philosophy of natural language is a branch of philosophy that explores the nature, origins, and use of language as it is naturally spoken and understood by human beings. It involves the study of how language functions in communication, the relationship between language and thought, the structure and meaning of linguistic expressions, and the role of context in understanding meaning. This field intersects with linguistics, cognitive science, logic, and semiotics, aiming to understand both the abstract properties of language and its practical use in everyday life.

Key Concepts in the Philosophy of Natural Language:

Meaning and Reference:

Semantics: One of the central concerns of the philosophy of natural language is the study of meaning, known as semantics. Philosophers explore how words and sentences convey meaning, how meaning is structured, and how language relates to the world.

Reference: Reference is the relationship between linguistic expressions and the objects or entities they refer to in the world. Philosophers like Saul Kripke and Hilary Putnam have contributed to understanding how names, descriptions, and other expressions refer to things in the world.

Pragmatics:

Context and Meaning: Pragmatics deals with how context influences the interpretation of language. It examines how speakers use language in different contexts and how listeners infer meaning based on context, intentions, and social norms.

Speech Acts: Philosophers such as J.L. Austin and John Searle have explored how utterances can do more than convey information—they can perform actions, such as making promises, giving orders, or asking questions.

Syntax and Grammar:

Structure of Language: Syntax is the study of the rules and principles that govern the structure of sentences in natural languages. Philosophers and linguists investigate how words are combined to form meaningful sentences and how these structures relate to meaning.

Universal Grammar: The concept of universal grammar, proposed by Noam Chomsky, suggests that the ability to acquire language is innate to humans and that there are underlying grammatical principles common to all languages.

Language and Thought:

Linguistic Relativity: The Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis suggests that the structure of a language influences how its speakers perceive and think about the world. Philosophers debate the extent to which language shapes thought and whether different languages lead to different cognitive processes.

Conceptual Frameworks: Language is often seen as providing the conceptual framework through which we interpret the world. Philosophers examine how language structures our understanding of reality and whether it limits or expands our cognitive abilities.

Philosophy of Meaning:

Theories of Meaning: Various theories of meaning have been proposed in the philosophy of language, including:

Descriptivist Theories: These suggest that the meaning of a word or phrase is equivalent to a description associated with it.

Causal Theories: These argue that meaning is determined by a causal relationship between words and the things they refer to.

Use Theories: Inspired by Ludwig Wittgenstein, these theories claim that the meaning of a word is determined by its use in the language.

Language and Reality:

Metaphysical Implications: Philosophers explore how language relates to reality, including how linguistic structures might reflect or distort our understanding of the world. This involves questions about whether language mirrors reality or if it plays a role in constructing our experience of reality.

Ontology of Language: This concerns the nature of the entities that linguistic expressions refer to, such as whether abstract objects (like numbers or properties) exist independently of language.

Communication and Interpretation:

Hermeneutics: Hermeneutics is the study of interpretation, particularly of texts. Philosophers in this tradition, such as Hans-Georg Gadamer and Paul Ricoeur, explore how understanding is achieved in communication and how meaning is negotiated between speakers and listeners.

Ambiguity and Vagueness: Natural language often contains ambiguity and vagueness, where words or sentences can have multiple interpretations. Philosophers study how these features affect communication and understanding.

Language and Social Interaction:

Language as a Social Phenomenon: Language is inherently social, and its use is governed by social norms and conventions. Philosophers study how language functions in social contexts, how power dynamics influence language, and how language can both reflect and shape social structures.

Language Games: Wittgenstein introduced the concept of "language games" to describe how the meaning of words is tied to their use in specific forms of life or social practices. This concept emphasizes the diversity of language use and the idea that meaning is context-dependent.

Evolution of Language:

Origins of Language: Philosophers and cognitive scientists explore how language evolved in humans, the relationship between language and other forms of communication in animals, and the cognitive capacities required for language.

Language Change: Natural languages are dynamic and constantly evolving. Philosophers study how languages change over time and what this reveals about the nature of meaning and communication.

Critique of Language:

Deconstruction: Philosophers like Jacques Derrida have critiqued traditional notions of language and meaning, arguing that language is inherently unstable and that meaning is always deferred, never fully present or fixed.

Critical Theory: In the tradition of critical theory, philosophers analyze how language can perpetuate power structures, ideologies, and social inequalities, and how it can be used to resist and challenge these forces.

The philosophy of natural language offers a rich and complex exploration of how language functions, how it relates to thought and reality, and how it shapes human interaction and understanding. By examining the nature of meaning, reference, context, and the social dimensions of language, philosophers aim to uncover the fundamental principles that govern linguistic communication and the role of language in human life.

[thewormformerlyknownasletojrjr]

It’s kinda fascinating how modern slang can totally shift language usage. Like when I took AP European history in high school, they had nepotism defined as a vocabulary word because it was obscure and old fashioned and the average high schooler wouldn’t know what it meant otherwise. But now the term nepo baby is used all the time and teens and young adults could give you a definition for nepotism off the top of their heads if you stopped them on the street and asked. Really interesting to see a word that was sort of decaying in usage become commonplace again. I dunno.

[linguistics-and-such]

Where did "they" come from?

"They" actually comes from Old Norse. In Old Norse, there was a masculine "they", a feminine "they", and a gender-neutral "they". The forms made use of the symbol "thorn" (þ), which is pronounced like the "th" in "thing" and "think".

* Subject: þeir (m), þær (f), þau (gn)

* Direct object: þá (m), þær (f), þau (gn)

* Indirect object: þeim (m, f, gn)

* Possessive: þeir(r)a (m, f, gn)

Note:

* Subject is "THEY go"

* Direct object is "I hugged THEM"

* Indirect object is "I gave THEM a cake"

* Possessive is "that's THEIR hat" / "that hat is THEIRS"

Old English actually used a much different set of pronouns for the 3rd-person plural before English adopted the pronouns from Old Norse:

* Subject: hīe

* Direct object: hīe

* Indirect object: heom

* Possessive: heora

Incidentally, Old Norse is also the origin of "hann" ("he") and "hon" ("she"), which have evolved to be used in many other languages. In Swedish, "han" is "he", and "hon" is "she". In Danish, "han" is "he", and "hun" is "she". Similarly, in Norwegian Bokmål, "han" is "he", and "hun" is "she". In Norwegian Nynorsk, "han" is "he", and "ho" is "she". "Hann" is also possibly the origin of "hän", which is the Finnish gender-neutral pronoun that can mean "he", "she", or "they" (singular).

Basically, we owe a lot of the pronouns we use today to Old Norse. Thanks, Old Norse!

[religion-is-a-mental-illness]

When language changes to reflect changes in society, that’s evolution. When language changes to engineer changes in society, that’s creationism.

Social constructivists see language as not describing reality, but creating reality. You should always be suspicious of what the rapid and inorganic redefinition of words is aimed to socially engineer.

[jyou-no-sonoko19]

I don't care what any grammarian says, a 'snort' is not the right word for a soft exhalation through the nose to covey amusement. A snort is a harsher sound, or at least one that involves some vibration of the sinuses to give it that rougher sound.

I'm sorry. But it's the identical level of sound to an inward sniff, like if you're scenting the air. So it's an outward sniff. I know it can be argued that sniff always means inward. But language evolves, and I'm pretty sure that whenever I've seen "she sniffed" used in fic I was able to contextually deduce whether it was meant to be an outward puff of air or an inhale.

Plus, we do also call it 'sniffing' when someone is being dismissive about something, and that sort of emoting is often paired with an outward puff of air.

And so (with the bona fides of a bachelor of linguistics, English teacher, fiction writer and professional editor) I believe that 'to sniff' has evolved to include the outward passage of air in common parlance.

[flannelepicurean]

You know what? I love some internet slang I've picked up. LOVE IT. I love how language has evolved because of stupid video apps and hellsites and all sorts.

That fucks severely. Absolute banger. String of emojis (and yes, I know "emoji" is technically plural, too, but see above re: evolving language).

I will be having literal discourse (literally) with folks about beautiful words we love, because we WRITE, and be like, "'Mellifluous!' MMM! Yes! Absolute banger of a word! Don't sleep on 'lilt,' though. Love onomatopoeia, too. Sound-words fuck so hard."

We need all of this. We need quill pens and bling and graffiti. We need basketball hoops and breakdancing circles and brocade curtains. We need velvet and vinyl and catboys and babygirls and dad jokes and nonbinary queer platonic furry discourse and ace writers telling us why their favorite words fuck severely OR however else ANYONE wants to communicate (verbal, written, sign, whatever) about the fact that communication is amazing.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

[blanketburritotoro]

Language is constantly evolving. We're constantly making up new slang and new words. And I for one, think it's time. It's time we made up words that rhyme with purple and orange. This is getting ridiculous.

[highlyentropicmind]

"OP" functions like a new pronoun between the third and second person. Think about it, when you write a comment and you mention OP you are giving people in the comments your opinion about someone else, that is third person, but you are also aware OP themselves could see it, so you are also talking to OP directly. This is why there are comments that use OP with third person and second person constructions, for example "OP this is hilarious" or "OP knows how to draw" As technology changes how we interact, it only makes sense language would adapt to it I think the next development should be a way to address people differently if they occupy the same physical space that you do than if they are far away

[karizard-ao3]

While I understand this was not relevant for the story, it would’ve been great to see some linguistic differences between the Paradisians and the Marleyans when speaking Eldian. Both seem to speak Eldian as a primary language, thanks probably to two thousand years of Eldian Empire. (Despite the scene where Ymir reads Marleyan to Reiner and Bertholdt). But Paradis was isolated from the world for a hundred years and became very much backwards. Meanwhile continental Marley gave rise to a more multicultural society full of scientific and economic development.

Isolation alone is a factor that changes language over time. Development is another. Just take a look at Korean after even less time of division. They’re still mutually intelligible, but in the north it’s more “purist” while the south is more “modern” and came under a lot of influence from English. I don’t know for sure if it’s the same with English, but German and Japanese adopted a lot of new words from English and slang, in a way that would have been unthinkable of 100 years ago.

All of this to say that the absence of contact from the outside world and lack of significant economic development in comparison means that Eren, Mikasa, Armin and everyone else in Paradis speak Ye Olde Eldian. And would have the same vocabulary as our grandparents.

Considering Paradis seems much more medieval while the rest of the world was like in the Belle Epoque, depending on the severity of it Berthold, Reiner and Annie infiltrated the walls and to them everyone was casually using their equivalent of “thou”, “thy” and “thee”

You know, I have actually thought this myself. There is a brief mention of it being good Eldian is a common language but I always thought the Paradisians would at the very least have distinct accents, although you're right that there would very likely be distinct vocabulary differences as well. We could argue that the volunteers could have helped them modernize their speech in preparation for their visit, but the accent would be hard to overcome.

English is already such a messy mishmash of different languages that it's hard for me to think of new additions, but I'm sure they exist.

Your ask did remind me of the difference between Canadian French and European French, though. In Canada, the pronunciation is different and they have made a distinct effort to keep the language pure to its roots, so they reject introducing anglicized vocabulary and therefore still use older terms that have disappeared from the common usage in France in favor of adopting English words. I feel like this would be a good representation of the language difference between Marley and Paradis, with Paradisian Eldian remaining fairly static due to their isolation and the nobility forcing the population to stagnate for 100 years while Marleyan Eldian has changed and evolved due to their interactions with other countries.

[variablejabberwocky]

the realization that "cry-laughing" and "lol-sobbing" are two very different feelings

[makeitpink57]

listening to old musicals is just a constant state of

that word meant something different... that word meant something different.. THAT WORD MEANT SOMETHING DIFFERENT