#Like don’t get me wrong a w*ncestie is a w*ncestie is a w*ncestie but

[castielmacleod]

Run-of-the-mill flagrant w* shippers are awful and disgusting of course but god those Kripke era purists who literally salivate over how fucked up the Sam + Dean + John dynamic is and act like the most intellectual people on earth for doing so. And are quietly but very obviously into w* but not in a typical shipping sense and rather in the sense that they have a real and perverse enjoyment of abuse and emotional incest. Those people are truly one of the most disturbing and terrifying types of people on here.

[chaoticdean]

Something I don’t understand is what these anti-pro shipping people expect the rest of us to do. I mean I despise *ncest and will not engage with that sort of content, however I won’t bother ever interacting with a w*ncestie to tell them they’re wrong, guess that makes me a pro shipper? Are all these geniuses harassing *ncest writers in their fanfiction’s comment section to tell them they’re wrong? Like what exactly are they doing as anti-pro shippers? Except harassing perfectly normal people who aren’t here for some twisted form of online ‘activism’ of course. Sorry I actually value my time and peace of mind and therefore won’t interact with stuff I don’t like. These keyboard warriors are most likely suffering from delusions of grandeur, just because you’re against something doesn’t mean people will stop doing it lol.

I honestly think this has to do with relatively young people who haven’t been in fandom for long. I used to be disgusted by W*ncest and talk about how it was “wrong” etc at the very beginning of my time in fandom. Then I grew up and moved in this fandom and decided I didn’t care. I’m also a victim of inc*st and get extremely heated up when these same people try to use us as an excuse for their little internet fighting.

[allhallowstiel]

okay so like. not to be all “back in my day” but. it’s so sad seeing people who joined the fandom after nov 5th finding out the truth about creation cons. i’ve been here since 2015 and i can confirm that things have always been this way.

creation cons are a brofest, and they always have been. they appeal to j2 stannies and w*ncesties because they’re the ones that buy the gold passes for the j2 gold panel, and they wouldn’t want to risk pissing them off. there was even a time when, if the wrong person found out you were a destiel shipper, you could get banned from cons because people would lie to creation and tell them you were a threat to the actors (god the exorcising emily story boils my blood every time).

they have never allowed destiel questions, or questions relating to dean or cas’ sexuality. we don’t know why exactly this is the case (i mean, it all just boils down to homophobia at the end of the day). rumor has it that it’s because it made jensen ackles uncomfortable, but that’s just a rumor as far as i know. the only reason we ever got any destiel content from creation cons in the past is because 1) a destiel question slipped through the censors or 2) misha or someone else (but it was usually misha) brought it up themselves.

people used to argue that because destiel was not canon, it shouldn’t be asked about at cons (and the whole “it’s cringe to ask about shipping bc it annoys the actors” take, which has always confused me, bc these actors are grown men with dick and balls and if they can’t handle innocent, non-sexual shipping questions that sounds like their problem, not mine, but whatever). but there’s no excuse for it this time, given that destiel is now canon on cas’ side. it happened in the show. we didn’t just make it up, and i know we didn’t because if we did, we would’ve done a better job (and that is one of the only times i will ever take the ‘fans could’ve done it better’ stance on anything).

this is also the first time we’ve had video evidence of blatant homophobia like this, at least since the infamous bi dean question in 2013 (2014? i think it was 2013). i appreciate misha for stepping in and allowing that fan to ask her question. i also appreciate misha for essentially confirming at other cons that there is a “no-no list” of stuff he can’t talk about, which we all suspected was the case for years. but this kind of shit is disgusting and shouldn’t be tolerated at creation events. we should be allowed to ask about canon things that happened on the show.

anyway. stop giving creation your money and if you happen to have a few bucks to spare, donate to charity or to people in need. creation doesn’t deserve your money.

[incarnateirony]

pls pls correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think seeing john and mary hitting "every waypoint already set" which was later relived by destiel is necessarily…. a good thing??? like yeah sure I’m as excited as the next person is to see the hets/w*ncesties get sick over the fact that destiel parallels a canon ship, but like….. I thought we all agreed that john and mary is not a healthy or good relationship, I don’t think drawing more parallels between destiel and a relationship like that, esp one that ends that poorly, is a good thing???

subversion is a thing folks

[lovelazarus]

hiii i'm sorry, what's wrong with bibros? genuine question, i absolutely understand getting rid of wincesties, but i don't understabd what bibros did wrong

A LOT of bibros have the same energy as w*ncesties and are just toxic and rude as hell.

I don't like J*red or the shit he's done and 99.9% of b*bros will literally send death threats if you insult him in any way. I just don't like them or want them anywhere near me.

Some of them are chill, whatever. I personally don't understand the obsession and die hard fanaticism of two white men, one of whom is a literal abuser- but to each their own.

I've been in this fandom over a decade and im speaking from personal experience with this.

I ain't ever had a destiel/cockles shipper send me death threats so, there's that!

[acklesangel97]

Sad. Disappointed. Pissed off. Heartbroken. All the emotions. I just can’t believe they thought that was acceptable. I’ve got a few points to make.

* I just cannot get over the fact that not only they chose to kill Dean off but like THAT and THAT soon? Like, this man, this incredible man, has gone through SO much and suffered SO much and he’s just defeated god (didn’t even kill him, he spared him) so he can FINALLY live his life and be FREE and he barely gets to enjoy that before he meets his end at the hands of a fucking rusty nail sticking out of the wall?? NO! That’s fucked up! What even is that? He’s a hero! He should’ve died like a hero but not before he at least got to enjoy his life first. Or he could’ve retired cos god knows if anyone deserved to retire it was Dean Winchester. Just... a rusty nail? Really??

* And Dean’s death scene was so emotional, so heartfelt with some beautiful words and moments and I did cry a lot. But for me that scene, and even the scene at the end (and other scenes throughout the series involving the brothers) are ruined by w*ncesties. I feel like I can no longer appreciate Sam and Dean’s incredible bond and love for each other without thinking about them loving it for all the wrong reasons and making into something sick and twisted and thinking that they won and that their sick incest ship went canon. So they ruined that.

* WHY WASN’T CAS THERE??! It was established that he’s out of the empty, alive and well and helped Jack redesign heaven so why couldn’t he have appeared for one fucking minute?! I’m not even talking about destiel rn, Castiel was such an important and loved character on the show and saved the show more than once so why couldn’t he have been there? Greeted Dean in heaven? And after Bobby mention that Cas helped Jack, that was totally an opening for him to appear. Even if when Dean was driving he could’ve stopped when he found Cas, gave him a hug or something idk. Just so disrespectful to the character and to Misha.

* Now talking about destiel. I genuinely don’t think I would’ve been as disappointed in that finale if we didn’t get the “I love you” in 18. Cos before that, my hopes and expectations were LOW. I was expecting to be let down and to be sad. But then THAT happened and we were given hope and the show had a huge opportunity to make this finale iconic. Like the whole idea of Dean saving Cas from the Empty, raising Cas from perdition, coming full circle... that would’ve been incredible. What a story. But even just Cas meeting Dean in heaven would’ve sufficed. And they set it all up so perfectly for Dean to tell Cas he loves him too (I mean we all know he does anyway, we have eyes). Amazing character development. It would’ve been such a beautiful end to what can only be described as the greatest love story... I feel it was left so open-ended and incomplete cos Dean never got to say something back to Cas. And Cas was BARELY mentioned in the last 2 episodes. We were all annoyed at Jensen and Misha for not saying anything and saying 18 was Cas’ last scene and we didn’t believe them but they were just trying not to set us up to be disappointed. But alas, we are all clowns. Jensen even said he didn’t want to put Dean into a box and that he was open to all interpretations of that scene and how Dean felt, trying to give us some validation. So thanks for that boys, honestly. We should’ve listened.

* Why didn’t Sam end up with Eileen? Who tf was that random woman he married and had a kid with? I mean they wouldn’t even let the straight couple we all shipped be together?

* Maybe not quite as important but what was with that grey wig they gave Jared? And couldn’t they have tried to make his face look older?

* Also why did they bring back that random vampire from season 1 for like 30 seconds before killing her? Pointless.

* No one was at Dean’s funeral? Just Sam and Miracle? I know, Covid and all that but they surely could’ve gotten like Jody and Donna and a couple of the girls or other hunters they knew and stood socially distanced or something. Cos for all Dean’s died many times he’s never had a hunters funeral. Where’s the respect?

So yeah, not very pleased. At all. But this is what we’re stuck with. Can’t change it. Will I eventually make peace with it? Idk. I mean I have always said I would only be content if they were both dead in the end cos I couldn’t go on with my life wondering what one or both of them were up to or if they were ok. So it gave me closure in that sense. But they sort of dismissed the whole “family don’t end with blood” thing and the chosen family they made over the years and brought it back to just the brothers. And I get that Sam and Dean are at the heart of the show but the show became so much more than just them throughout the years. I think the beginning and the end were ok, I just didn’t like most of everything in the middle.

But SPN has introduced me to some wonderful people and an amazing fandom who are really like a crazy, dysfunctional family and I’ll always love it for that. It’s shaped so much of my life and who I am and it’s brought me a lot of joy and comfort over the years. I won’t abandon it or the fandom. And at the end of the day, there’s always fanfiction.

[bookdork1]

Someone who’s been here longer than me and knows the ancient lore- why did we not see Jo and Ellen for over two seasons until they were brought back just to be used as canon fodder?? I know the show likes to blame its large female fan base for its own misogyny (in that all the women watching just got so upset seeing the boys interact with *gasp* women, so...therefore.....the show, uh, couldn’t write any female characters unless they were destined to die soon) but is that the real reason? That just seems so hard to swallow considering that my own (albeit heavily warded) bubble of tumblr absolutely loves both these characters and ash and what they brought to the show....so like yeah just anyone with the knowledge can you answer if it really was because of larger fandom/GA dislike (at the time) or just a network and/or writing decision? 

I’m also really curious as to if they *were* doing it because of fandom dislike, was it just pandering to the b*bros or w*ncesties because at that point in like s2 this show was still pretty small in its fanbase and that subsection of fandom was the most vocal and therefore had the false appearance of being the majority? 

I also wonder about how Ruby was received- what’s the backstory behind the actress change to Gen- was that just Katie Cassidy getting a different role on something or was there bts drama? How did (the non crazy portion of) the fans react to Ruby’s character when she was introduced? Or Bela’s? And would those reactions actually have effected the characters’ arcs in the story *if* fan reactions also negatively effected ratings (I’m thinking similar to- though opposite of- Cas being written off and then brought back due to fan outrage that tanked s7 ratings)? Did that happen with any female characters in which their presence actually did effect ratings of the show? 

The other only really long term multi-episode character to consider (in that they directly affected sam or dean, so i’m not including meg or hannah, since they were more connected with cas and while rowena is connected to sam, her initial introduction is via crowley) is Amelia, but she- like Lisa- always seemed intended to have a short shelf life as love interest developed off screen, so even if people didn’t like her I don’t think there was ever intention to keep her around. Idk I just think this misconception that still exists that female fans didn’t want female characters on the show and that’s why they were so few and far between- specifically in the first half or so of the show- is so gross and an entirely unfair cop out by the producers/network/some writers. besides Charlie and Mary and Eileen (and kinda Billie) every other woman the boys meet sticks around for maybe an episode and that’s it. And of those above four almost everyone (including the GA) was angry at the brutal murders bucklemming served Charlie and Eileen, love or hate Mary her being fridged twice for man pain is beyond ridiculous and not something to blame fans for and Billie just got randomly villainized at the end (but prior to the final arc of s15 most people liked her as death), so i don’t feel like fans were particularly gunning for any of those characters aside from maybe mary (i’m not sure how big the fandom split on her actually is). ***plus 3/4 of the above mentioned characters plus everyone in wayward sisters (besides Jody) were all developed and created in the final third of the show, which I think is truly illustrative of dabb and co taking the reins and writing some wrongs when it came to women rep on the show (not you bucklemming you can choke)***

Idk I got rambly at the end but anyone who knows anything about any of my incoherent points please please answer this!

[s5byler]

Hello, Love! Alright, 7, 8, 11, and 30 for that SPN ask game

Ahh! Thank you for the ask! 

Now, let’s see. Number 7: What season should Supernatural have ended at? Or was s15 the right place to end? Again, dissertation required :)

This is kind of a tricky answer because I could say an easier season, but then we wouldn’t have gotten some amazing character development and moments between some characters. 

I think to some extent that Supernatural could’ve ended at Season 5: Swan Song, and be fine. I don’t think I would’ve ended up watching it though. It would still have stayed, to a certain extent, a macho man show with one gay angel, and a very sexually frustrated Dean Winchester. The ending did leave plot holes; Sam watching Dean and Lisa (”how’s sam back? who knows? that was the series finale), Cas seeing Sam there too. But s5 was one very possible season it could’ve ended at. 

Over the years we see them grow as characters, maybe make some dumb decisions, and good plot (in my opinion). I think Season 12 could be taken out as a whole, the whole plot was so boring. I’m also not a very big fan of Mary (she’s really the only character, besides John, that I don’t like), no I will not elaborate. Season 12 could’ve been planned out by 5th graders writing Fanfiction and still be better than that, although the whole Cas, Kelly, and Jack thing was cool, in my opinion. 

Then Season 13 came, some also great moments and Jack was introduced (in person at least)! We got to see a widow arc from Dean, shows some major character dynamics also. All around I still don’t think this would be a good place to end. 

Now Season 14, Michael!Dean. We see more of some low self-worth coming from Dean. He’s ready to bury himself to save everyone else. Causes some tension between him and Cas. Anger comes as well from Dean because Mary ends up dying and all that stuff. Still not a good place to end because it leaves a very big cliff hanger to a good plot twist. 

Season 15, well... we all know how that went. They could’ve done some really outstanding stuff with this whole plot. They started it too! With God writing their story, the only way to end it and have this series be fully complete is for them to break away and be able to write their own story! An absolutely amazing set-up coming from a show like Supernatural. Really this could’ve been an amazing ending, but with how they did it they erased everything. All the character development especially. Chuck symbolized the writers, and they finally beat Chuck in 15x19, so the finale was supposed to be them living their life not attached to Chuck, but they went to exactly how their life would’ve been if all of the 15 seasons didn’t happen. Dean died early as he thought he would’ve in the beginning of the series, and Sam lived his apple pie life. He found blurry wife and had Dean Jr., but really if they continued with the narrative Dean should’ve got Cas back and Sam go to Eileen. The finale went in a totally different direction that doesn’t fit with how the characters had changed and developed. Some of the callbacks were okay, but it was really sets the story back. If this wasn’t the end and they did have a Season 16 it would’ve been well, but then the season would have also had to be written by the Supernatural writers. And that’s a problem. I would totally watch if the whole season was written by Bobo. He’s literally such a king. Over-all I think it’s a very difficult answer and a lot of things to factor in, but I think s15 was a good place to end, and could be set up for a good reboot in the future. 

Number 8: If you could remove one season of supernatural, which one would it be and why?

I think my answer above already answered that, Season 12 definitely. There was some good moments and great characters introduced, but plot wise I didn’t like it. 

Number 11: If you HAD to get rid of one member of TFW, who would it be?

Oh god, this is so hard to answer. I don’t want to be a biased heller because if I said Sam the b*bros and w*ncesties would come at me, but I think that could work out. Not completely taken out, but Sam living somewhere else with Eileen or something. But if it as like the character didn’t even exist I would have to get rid of Jack. Now, don’t get me wrong I love the character dynamic between dadstiel and Jack. I LOVE the idea of all three of them being dads to Jack and it’s so adorable, but if I HAD to get rid of one it would be him. I’m sorry :( I still love him though. 

Number 30: Make up a fact about a character and convince me it’s true.

I don’t even know. I’m sorry, I’m not creative 😩 someone else do this one for me 

[themanicgalaxy]

SPN 5X1 Sympathy for the Devil

THUNDERSTRUCK OPENS SEASON 5 OH HELL YEAH

aight, lucifer's back, i got six episodes to catch up on(two weekends) AND YOU'VE BEEN THUNDERSTRUCKKKKK

WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT EFFECT AHAHAHA

yeah I see why tumblr likes it, it's the mainstream version of itself

not that that made sense, but IT'S SEASON 5 TIME!

oh this is a NICE lighting effect?

oo interesting transition?

zachariah?

ok so the beam kills the plane ?

why are they on the plane ?

ah yes the late 2000s sure were a Fun Time

PLEASE FUCKING TALK TO EACH OTHER I SWEAR TO GOD I AM SO TIRED OF THIS

YES IT'S MY COPING MECHANISM TOO, BUT I'M NOT HUNTING THE DEMONS

CHUCK FUCKING SCARED ME DAMN

no Sam's Totally not a Demon it's Fine

Cas? Dead?

boy you sure can try

Exploded Cas HAHAHA HE HAS A MOLAR IN HIS HAIR

oh good it's zach

"it's apocalypse now" feels like a reference to...apocalypse now heh

the vessel oho the planting and payoff

O H TH AT WAS C L E V ER DEAN!

WHERE IS C A S WHERE IS THE ANGEL

does...Dean know about Ruby

hey they said the roll credits

o Dean doesn't know about the voicemail

ASFPHSIHF i hate you people

ah Dean the "let's move on let's move on let's move on"

Oh ok the vessel

WAIT THEY NEED CONSENT RIGHT THE POINTED SET UP

hoh that is a lot of blood

IS BECKY A W*NCESTIE SHIPPER WHAT THE F U C K

well this is a very nice portrayal of fans

jesus christ

i mean to be fair, there ARE some fans like this but still bad

what the actual HELL she's in the season premiere?

this is Strange

please god don't bring up the Fanfics

i do like the critique of their own show at least briefly

although it's being made fun of...?

"can you quit touching me?"

scene change scenE CHANGE

SWORD OF MICHAEL

ah macguffin plot

GO DO R E S E A R C H

Dean really wants to Not Think About it

Bobby..?

B O B B Y ?

it's not Bobby, it's not, it can't be

NO HE LOOKS SO SAD

look I get it they need support, but not being coddled is important

some middle ground ig

CLEVER DEAN ! C L E V E R!

yep! not Bobby!

felt WAY too out of character

MEG! HOLY HELL I DIDN'T KNOW SHE SHOWED UP THIS EARLY

MEGMEGMEGMEG

AND IT SOUNDS LIKE HER! OH MY GOD

oo villain hero banter god I love having that

the flirting thing is weird ok fine do your fetish thing

BOBBY?

B O B B Y ?

NO ! NONONO! ARE YOU KIDDING ME THERE'S NO WAY

goddamn i love Meg

what the FUCK happened to exorcisms yall

aww the baby crying woke mina awwwwww

she's a protective fucker

oh the bloody crib imagery is FUCKED it's VERY nice

oh thank GOD they take him to a hospital

I thought castle said CASTIEL lol

also NICE imagery

ok lots of dead guys

"oh thank god the angels are here" pfftahaha

yeah Dean's the michael sword whoopsie

DID YOU FUCK THE MICHAEL SWORD CASTIEL

"wad of insecurity and self loathing" pfft

why didn't they just say vessel

ANGEL CONDOM

oh the Bang and instant leg break is nice

AH CONSENT

C L E V E R D E A N

"it is written" free will babyyyy

ah uses Bobby as leverage

jeez

altho angel power is INTENSE

"are we having fun yet" OH HELL

seriously hbo spn would be INTENSE body horror what do you mean no lungs

C A S! CASCAS!!!

HE'S ALIVE! I MEAN I KNEW BUT CAS

INTENSE CURLY HAIRED CAS

S I G I L PROTECTIVE S I G I L

"no i carved it into your ribs" THE DELIVERY AHAHAHA

just doesn't answer ok then

~I'm an angel~

at least he flagged lucifer, I was hoping someone would

the angels rly do be "gaslight gatekeep girblossing"

i do find a lucifer plot line played straight interesting! who'd a thunk

ok seriously, it was TOO easy to find someone wronged by god

oo the don't lie thing, that's neat

jeez, they rly had the budget of Nothing

Bobby oh my God

THE GED QUOTE! THAT WAS THIS!

"I got no idea, but I got a GED and a give em hell attitude, we'll figure it out" HAHAHA I L O V E H I M

look at least SOMEONE doesn't cut them off

"I deserve a medal for this" pffttt

hey they're framing Dean taller

ALSO HIS HAIR IS A BIT FLUFFY! GOOD! IT LOOKS GOOD!

"I don't think we can ever be what we were"

this feels Real and I HATE it

and they split up with a SHOT OF THE LAMP

god the glass is chewy tonight

1. God+Disillusionment. Ok here's the thing: the whole scene where Lucifer didn't even have to do much to convince Nick? I think? to go against God feels important. Like it feels as if God has abandoned us, and we want to get back at him. Absent Father narrative, mixed with a bit of ye old exceptionalism(you're all mighty and all powerful, why didn't you help me). It...obviously I don't know who's idea it was to go this way, or what lens they were viewing this through specifically, but that convincing(and what Nick believed so he could let himself be convinced) felt important both in the context(vague 2009, after the crash) and in the story. I feel like this theme will show up later.

2. clever Dean. Dean got like three clever moments this episode, and a good pep talk. And I really like the trade off! The "let's not think about it until it blows over I'm totally fine ahaha" fucks him up when it comes time to deal with his relationship with his brother, but this desire to move forward(and the actual intelligence to think ahead like damn) helped them actually get to places. and at the end, he does a pep talk! he's learned how people work a bit! like the nuance and the showing off his good skills makes me happy.

3. lucifer played straight. So I realize this came out like...a decade before the Lucifer show. but having a Lucifer that has quiet daddy issues and have them be played entirely straight wasn't something I thought would be as compelling as it was. The actress for Lucifer was very good, which probably helped, but to have Lucifer be Sincere(seeming) and actually believe in his point was interesting and a bit refreshing

also i liked that the name was recognized, feels more realistic

4. probably need a callout. Like I get it, they're the main heroes, they did their best, but they DEFINITELY needed a call out or at least a chat that wasn't the End of the episode. They did their best, I get not siding with the angels, but SOMETHING has to be done. You can't build the "everything is shit" narrative and say idk we're probably gonna fix it lol in the framing device you have set up. Where's ur power fantasy? what are you gonna do with him?

5. Bobby. Listen, I love Bobby. I can tell how you know it's just a Bit off. And while they did need a bit of chewing out, I do appreciate how Bobby's like "priority one, make sure they know I'm not gonna leave" like it makes him a good dad, if a not great hunter, and I really like that. I like how Bobby's weak spot is surrogate kids, that makes me happy.

7. the confrontation. Ok listen, I need that in there. The framing(like I said, they're framing Dean as a bit taller than they would in later seasons(possibly as writers shift their focus from Sam to Dean, a trend that seems to Keep Going)), it puts him a bit higher. The dialogue felt real, like to the point of, whether or not it was accurate to the story or not, it felt like two real family members talking. Like "I can't get rid of you, but we can't be what we were?" heartbreaking. I love glass. And yeah, that final shot of Dean walking away from Sam is pretty obvious HOWEVER Dean is shot with a lamp. It either means Cas or just the angels in general, and whether that's a "he's the michael sword and Sam's lucifer(invoked in this convo)" type thing or a "cas is on Dean's side, and as Cas is in the right so is Dean" type thing, it's Interesting to look at. And it's SUPER deliberate, this cANNOT have been done on accident.

8. Second Meg supremacy, first Ruby supremacy

ighty night night time to go pry the kitty off of me