#Look I like Tommy as a character - I think he's an interesting way of developing Bucks arc and character

[stagefoureddiediaz]

Is it too soon to talk about the Tommy and Taylor Kelly parallel(s) we got in this episode??

Because @b-dwolf and I were just talking about the fact that the Buck Tommy kiss is literally paralleling the Buck taylor bathroom hook up in season 2 - down to the song choice and the way Madney are sitting - just without the bathroom! we even got a secondary parallel with Taylor dumping Buck to go to work with Tommy dropping out of the party to go to work.

[mourninglamby]

god it's so nice to see your takes on things genuinely

As flawed as it is, i think dsmp is still an incredibly interesting and unique narrative about abuse, how it affects different people, and how it's spread and normalised. It's not a satisfying or clean narrative by any means, but i still think that it approaches its themes in a way that's fundamentally different than any other form of media and it's still worth it to spend time analysing it.

i don't know if the fact that actual abusers worked on it has anything to do with it (i would hazard a guess and say yes, but i digress), but oftentimes it genuinely feels like a look into the internal machinations of abusers, and i think it can make people more aware of the warning signs. and good analysis is the #1 way to actually bring that lesson to the surface, since the story wasn't written with that moral in mind but just stumbled onto it.

so, thank you for giving this smpand its story the time of day, i think that it's genuinely something that's worth doing and it's nice to see someone put themselves out there like you do (since i know how a lot of fans are), have a lovely day!

Ugh this is all worded soooo perfectly. This story is truly the most unique look into abuse and it never even used to word …….forgive the long tangent I’m about to go on but it’s important!! I know there is a bigger conversation to be had, particularly about the meta and the way Tommy played ctommy/how he interacted with the adults on the server, which greatly influenced the delivery of the abuse plotline. Tom Simons played Ctommy epistemologically, so the characters’ knowledge, for the most part, extended only as far as his did. Which created a devastating story ! Especially concerning cwilbur!

I wanna actually talk abt how the word “abuse” was never used, despite it permeating thru the entire narrative. This was on purpose of course. Tommy The Guy was 16. His outlook on abuse and the nuances of it likely weren’t developed enough for him to ever really understand what was happening to his character until it was too late. And in that vein, Clayton Ray Huff and william gold also didn’t think harder about the harm they caused not just Tommy, but everyone else they hurt irl. And I’ll never forget Tommy’s cry for justice before that HORRIBLE ending, saying in his twitch chat that “cdream drove ctommy to suicide!” Or when he told his chat they were Also being manipulated by c!dream, after his first prison visit. It’s so complicated and so difficult to talk about, but it’s absolutely necessary when the story itself never really…. Understood the topic it was portraying. The level of abuse apologism and victim blaming present in this fanbase had such an awful effect on me and my friends, and again, that was intentional. Send the audience they curated to silence any conversation that might allude to blaring red flags. BUT! I’m in a better headspace to discuss the intricacies of its harm and how it failed, and simultaneously investigate how it managed to be so Real.

As for the story being written by a handful of actual abusers … well……. It’s no wonder it ended like a punch to the throat. Absolute horse shit spun from the mouths of men who know what they are, and want to keep being that way. Wilbur thinks he can just Leave for a while and everything would go back to normal. Dream thought he could Start Over so that no ACTUAL consequences would ever reach him. They learn NOTHING because they don’t believe they have to. It’s sick. But it’s always necessary to remember when analyzing the train wreck of an ending both men concocted. Dsmp failed as damage control because they played abusers in that story too. And abusers don’t think they’ve done anything wrong. Completely incapable of introspection.

Okay I’ve talked enough lmfao but . I’m rly thankful I get to receive anons like this … I do not think I’m the smartest person by a long shot and seeing other people articulate these thoughts and introduce me to new things has been very healing and validating. It’s much better than the ppl who would flat out deny it or harass me lol.

[inawickedlittletown]

No Queerbaiting Here

A long time ago…I’m talking May of 2021, I wrote a meta post about queerbaiting. Essentially an essay. I wrote it right before the S4 finale of 9-1-1 aired because I was frustrated by Buddie fans calling Queerbait entirely like the boy that cried wolf. I still stand by it. Sort of. 

Now, even back then I was pretty clear about how 50/50 I was on Buddie ever going canon. (Maybe not in that post but certainly elsewhere) But, I shipped Buddie then and wrote a lot of fic and meta and participated in fandom. I never said it couldn’t happen…I just would never be bothered if it didn’t.

Where we stand now: It’s not going to happen. 

And where I stand now: fully immersed in Bucktommy. And what’s more, I am more than perfectly happy about Buck and Tommy staying together and going the long-run. Although I can still look at Buddie and think it’s a cute ship, I just don’t want it in canon. I would not be satisfied if the show went that way. But what’s more if Buck and Tommy don’t work out, that would be disappointing, but I’d be okay as long as they got to be happy. There is, after all, always fanfiction. 

So, I wanted to revisit this concept a bit now that Buck has been confirmed as Bisexual and now that he is in a relationship with a man. Not Eddie. Tommy. And somehow, some Buddie fans are still crying queerbait because their ship is not canon. That’s not how it works. Also…shipping works outside of canon, that’s the whole point of shipping. 

To reiterate from my original post on queerbaiting, here’s the definition from wikipedia:

“Queerbaiting is a marketing technique for fiction and entertainment in which creators hint at, but then do not actually depict, same-sex romance or other LGBTQ representation. They do so to attract a queer or straight ally audience with the suggestion of relationships or characters that appeal to them, while at the same time attempting to avoid alienating other consumers.” 

Here’s where I stand: Buddie was abandoned a long time ago. If it was ever a real possibility, we won’t ever know. What we do know is that Oliver was aware that at one point he had given them the go-ahead to make Buck Bi. Whether this was by putting Buck and Eddie together or having Buck realize this another way, we just don’t know that. We don’t have that information and nor will it probably ever be provided to us. Narratively, I know that a lot of fans figured the timing of it fit with S4 and that particular finale but we really just don’t know despite what happened in the finale.

I found that interesting looking back at my own post from back then and the discussion that followed where some fans felt that the way the finale went would determine if Buddie would be another queerbait ship. (I think most people agreed after the will scene that it wasn’t queerbait because it did leave a kernel of hope that Buddie might still happen). 

And yeah, I guess you could argue that the network deciding not to go the route of a queer storyline points to missed opportunity. That doesn’t then mean that any queerbaiting occurred or that any fans are owed anything just because something that was set up or that the writers were writing towards was then scrapped by the network. Is it a shame that it didn’t happen in whatever way they wanted to play it out, sure, but only because Buck would have been confirmed queer earlier. In the same vein isn’t it nice that we have a confirmed Bisexual Buck now? That the show managed to bring it back to that.

A Buck that is happy and free and that has realized something so monumental about himself? Isn’t it nice that all the queer coding that Buck as a character has received since the start of the show is actually finally not just queer coding but full on character development? That we can look back at the show and see all the things Buck did around other men for exactly what they were. 

When Tommy first returned to 9-1-1 in S7, I think a lot of us were excited by the spoilers about Buck and Tommy because of Bi Buck, but also because this was the thing that could lead to Buddie. 

And then…then Tommy was actually on my screen and I doubted it. I actually thought maybe the spoilers were wrong and this was about Eddie and Tommy? That episode flipped things in such an expertly way that by the time Tommy and Buck were sharing a kiss for the first time I was right there with Buck. On a second watch, it is all there. Buck was never jealous because his friend was ignoring him. He was jealous because his best friend had the attention of the guy whose attention he wanted for himself. The writing on that was perfect and no amount of twisting it can change what happened on screen. 

Buck was not jealous because of Eddie. Tommy was never interested in more than friendship with Eddie. And Buck and Tommy have nothing to do with Buddie. Tommy is not a stepping stone, a way for Buck to be ready to then embark on a relationship with Eddie. That’s both disrespectful to Tommy and Buck, but just not what the story being told on the show is doing. 

The storyline is monumental. Having a big strong guy, a firefighter, figure out his sexuality in his thirties is such good storytelling and add to that Tommy. Someone that we already know, who already works as a first responder, and who can show up and wow Buck in such a way that he realizes something about himself? This is what I’ve always wanted. Because guess what, Buck never questioned his sexuality before this. Not when he met Eddie and not when he met anyone else, not until Tommy. 

Going into the new season we know a few things and one of those is that Buck and Tommy are thriving. The media coverage talks about them as a solid couple, it talks about Buck having someone to turn to and complain to. It talks about how they are still in the getting to know each other phase and I love that for them. I love how they are being treated and described and I can’t wait to see what plays out for them and how much of the build up of their relationship we may get to actually see. 

Do you know what the media and the show never talked about outwardly like this? Buddie. Whenever it came up it was always brushed aside in a way that was respectful to fans and what they saw, but without ever confirming or hinting that the show would ever go there. They never queerbaited anyone with Buddie, what they have done is say “yeah…we know what you see” and then turned around and given us a Buck and Eddie friendship and Buck kissing Tommy, going on a date with Tommy, and thriving with Tommy. 

So, no queerbaiting here on the show where half of the major canon pairings are queer. It’s actually more like some fans baiting other fans with theories and headcanons that just don’t fit.

[vintagecandy]

My personal reimagining of Jervis Tetch, AKA: The Mad Hatter.

So I noticed that it is really common for Gotham rogues-- but almost especially Jervis Tetch-- to get redrawn and redesigned! Which I just thought was such a fun exercise, so because I'm me and predictable my brain immediately leaped at the chance to imagine my own Jervis.... set in the 1920s. Now, the drastically different time period causes a lot of interesting dynamics. For one, I'm fairly certain Jervis Tetch's character originates from a time period of comics where people wore a lot more hats, so setting him in the past is very fitting for him. It makes a lot more sense for him to literally be an artisan hat manufacturer, as in a real hatter. BUT what's interesting is that hand made "hatter" style hats were actually beginning to fade out of favor, and one of the reasons is actually partially because there was a growing moralizing around the hatting industry's overhunting of birds for their decorative feathers, and so Jervis ( as you can see ) having this big, real peacock bird feather on his hat is sort of a defiance, a subtle expression of his bad intent. And I imagine his introduction to crime will be marked with the sudden unprompted rise of vintage style hats "regaining popularity". He's very much still a hypnotist, a master illusionist, and a scientific genius, and I was thinking- to shake things up- the hat is actually what drove him insane. Originally the hat band was created to counteract nerve damage he developed from mercury poisoning some years ago, but ended up also giving him heightened focus and an incurable bout of severe insanity. Then he later repurposed it for mind control. What insanity? Ok, look at the face I drew for him. This was on accident, but I've been looking at his face...... and I cannot shake the feeling he's a dad. Like, he has peak "wacky inventor father" energy in his face, but more sickly and evil. So I was thinking.... what if for this Jervis instead of his usual romantic Alice fixation... Alice was instead his daughter. And he loved having pretend tea parties with her, acting as the hatter. Some point after he put on the hat, his behavior was a little off but not worrying yet, but he lets his daughter wander off too far in this dangerous city and he just... never sees her again. He calls the police, they're kinda apathetic- probably corrupt tbh, he puts up posters-- nothing, she's just gone. Probably dead the more time passes. A senseless tragedy in a nonsense world. This breaks his brain! And so he decides he's going to take over all of Gotham and turn it into a game of Wonderland, part out of spite, and mostly out of total denial that his daughter is gone no matter how many years pass, in hopes that the little lost girl will find her way back to him or even that more puppets means more help finding her. But with time his insanity becomes so severe he doesn't even remember Alice was his daughter and not literally the book Alice, but he is slightly more lucid when without the hat. However, he feels sick and anxious when without it.

But as it goes in Gotham, by the time they consider you Arkham levels of insane, incurably so-- a 1920s insane asylum mind you! Which practically makes him more ill-- you sort of have no choice but to stay in the crime life forever. Which is where the tommy guns come in.

[bucked-it-up]

i wanted to ramble about where I think Buck and Tommy will be going into season 8 and what I think could possibly happen.

With the gap between S7 and S8 looking to be a shorter time skip and there not much development in the relationship, I’m quite excited to see what milestones they have passed together and which ones we will look forward to seeing.

This quote from Oliver interests me a lot “They’re still learning and figuring things out about each other and what a relationship might or could look like.” I feel like this could mean a few things, one being they are both firefighters and this is something new for Buck to navigate and also possibly new for Tommy as well. Both of them will have to get used to seeing the other leave for long shifts that mean they may not come home completely safe and sound. That will mean navigating the emotions that come with this, learning how to let one another go knowing that they will worry but they have to trust one another and having to live with the feeling that the other could get hurt without them being able to help/ get there as quick as they wish they could.

This is also the first relationship Buck has been in with a man and that will come with many obstacles, these could arise from being something that Buck hasn’t done before. A queer relationship come with pressures and negativity that straight relationships do not. Especially being in a queer relationship for the first time while having a boss like Gerrard and being separated from Bobby, someone he goes to advice and is a major part of Buck’s support network.

Another thing I get from this quote is they are working out how to be around each other and what they want their future to be like. This could include moving in which is something I would love to see but after this quote I am curious if it will be early season 8 or further down the line as a conversation talking about living situations could definitely come under what Oliver said.

I think as well the choice to bring back Gerrard will make things interesting for Buck and Tommy. I think it will give a good look at how they work through problems together and how they come to solutions. It will also show us more about how their relationship works, how they communicate and how they support each other. I hope that their relationship is explored in this arc because personally I think it would be a missed opportunity to not show how a newly out Bi character deals with a homophobic boss and how he communicates this with his boyfriend who has gone through it before.

Furthermore in S8 I really do hope we see many happy moments from them and we get to see ‘I love yous’ and milestones from them, I also hope we get to see some adversity. Preferably from outside sources rather than coming from within the relationship, such as one of them getting injured and having to navigate what that means for them and if they can cope. I would like to see them go through something like this and come out the other side even stronger.

As I have already said I would love to see them move in together and see Tommy’s house. To me this would signal that they (and the show) plan to stay with each other for a while and I would love to see Buck choose to live with his partner not because it just kinda happened like with Abby or out of some kind of guilt like with Taylor. I want him to make the choice and it be a deliberate and loving choice that allows him to spend more time with Tommy and increases their strength within the relatiionship.

To focus a little more on Tommy, I do hope he is featured in the opening arc in some way or another. I will be happy with any scenes he gets but i would love if he got a prominent role and we got to see his skills as a firefighter. I think having a pilot as a character is a good addition to the line up and allows for interplay between firefighters on the ground and in air support and means he can be included in more scenes as it has been shown he also does groundwork.

To end this ramble I hope that we get to see them happy and healthy. I hope the show explores their relationship and how different aspects of their life affect what they do and say. I truly hope that Buck is now off the hamster wheel and we don’t have to see him get back on it. I want to see Buck grow more within his professional life and outside of what he is like in relationships.

[notafragilething]

911: Tommy is mentioned in the synopsis and why I think it's important.

I was going to save this for the update to my ramble tonight but I decided this deserved it's own post because I think this might be another sign Tommy's sticking around / is a bigger part of the next episode then we think? If you haven't seen the synopsis for next week's episode please check it out:

The 118 and Tommy are presented with the Medal of Valor for their work on the cruise ship rescue. Meanwhile, Hen and Karen encounter an unforeseen hurdle in their foster care journey, while Eddie’s emotional affair develops further.

So I immediately noticed Tommy was listed, which isn't new information (we saw him in the promo), but something immediately screamed "this seems important that he's named." And I couldn't figure out why.

Because obviously Tommy's been listed in these before, right?

Wrong.

I went back and looked at all of this season's episode synopsis and looked at who was listed by name in them. I made main cast bold, re-occurring regulars like family and love interests italics and everyone else normal.

Abandon 'Ships: Athena, Bobby

Rock the Boat: Bobby, Athena, Hen

Capsized: Athena, Bobby, Hen

Buck Bothered and Bewildered: Athena, Harry, Buck, Eddie

You Don't Know Me: Hen, Karen, Eddie, Marisol, Buck

There Goes the Groom: Maddie, Chimney

Ghosts of a Second Chance: Maddie, Athena, Hen, Karen, Mara, Eddie

Step Nine: Bobby

Ashes, Ashes: Tommy, Hen, Karen, Eddie

Out of the many names listed, there are only two other characters who aren't part of the main/re-occurring cast that got listed. Most of the time they were vague and descriptive if another character was featured.

Such as referring to Tommy as "someone else," Mara being referred to as "a new addition to the family," and Amir as "a victim of the apartment fire."

So let's look at those two other names and the roles they played in their respective episodes.

We have Marisol getting her name in the summary for episode 5: You Don't Know Me. She doesn't necessarily appear a ton in this episode but is pretty significant in the plot since Eddie's storyline revolves around finding out she was a nun and how the impacts him. She was in 3 scenes and talked about in multiple others.

Mara was named in Ghost of a Second Chance, which was her second appearance. This episode had Karen and Hen's storyline focused pretty heavily on her and reuniting her with her brother.

So the fact they name dropped Tommy? Would only happen for one of two reasons.

He's going to be in multiple scenes this week or important to the plot.

They know people want to see him and are listing him to pull in viewers.

Both are fairly good signs for people who want him to stick around.

I also want to point out that Marisol, Mara and Tommy all have something in common. They're three characters that have the potential to move into a more re-occurring longterm role in the series next season.

Mara has the potential to become family (assuming they get over whatever hurdle is happening next week) which would put her in the same category as the other children in the show.

Marisol and Tommy both have the potential to be re-occurring role as a longterm love interest like Karen.

I was convinced Marisol was going to be gone but the fact that they are referring to this as an emotional affair and Ryan has made comments about how Eddie could see himself long term with her and loves her? I could see it going either way on whether or not they keep her since they might try to make the case he didn't physically cheat on her (even though I really hope she's gone soon simply because of the actress).

Thoughts?

[lemotmo]

I'm sorry but I need to talk more about some general finale and Buddie stuff:

What was the point of wasting precious episode time to show some random neighbour walking around in the burnt down house?

Where was councilwoman Ortiz in this episode?

Why didn't Buck just show Tommy the door after that strange daddy kink thing? I rewatched it and... he really did say that he hopes Buck has daddy issues, right? To feed his kink. And I'm just... WHAT? I did read that right... right? I'm sorry, but what?

It did the job to highlight that Tommy is older than Buck and might have other expectations from this relationship. So at least there is that.

But still though... KRISTEN WHAT DRUGS ARE YOU ON? This is over the top, even for you.

Oliver Stark, why haven't you posted anything yet on social media? Is it just me or is Oliver genuinly not happy about his storyline right now? I don't know. He was so happy with Buck coming out as bi, never really talking about Tommy as more of a vehicle for his character to come out, talking about him as a 'mentor'. Now, his potentially beautiful storyline has amounted to this? Twenty minutes of boring scenes that end in a sexual innuendo joke?

I hope he is holding out for season 8, like the rest of us. He knows a lot more about this storyline than we do. If he is aware that BT is a means to an end to get the Buck narrative he wants and deserves, he will stick with it I'm sure. But it has to be annoying to know the destination and being stuck in a drab place on the way to that destination. Thank God he has shown us time and time again that he knows exactly where Buck's heart and interests lie.

It's also very telling there are no Oliver interviews after this finale. He didn't have much to work with this episode. The only scenes that made him liven up were with Eddie and Chris. The rest was uninteresting. There is no promo at all. No interview with Oliver and Lou showcasing them together as the new 'it' couple on 911, hyping them up, telling the audience excitedly where BT is going in season 8.

Watch them break up over the hiatus, just like Bucktalia. I really think it could happen at this point. I wouldn't be surprised at all. Keep Tommy there as a friend and mentor.

However, I have now read some of those Ryan interviews and WOW! Some of those Ryan quotes keep me going when it comes to the Buddie narrative. He is using a lot of gender neutral pronouns to talk about his possible future partner. The way he is talking about that future partner, makes me think he already has someone specific in mind for that role. Highly interesting.

I was talking about all of this to @buddiebeginz and she highlighted this specific part of a Ryan interview:

I mean, that last part? "The partner that's meant for me will find themselves and find me at the same time." That is so Buck-coded. I mean, if anything, this episode highlighted that Buck is still on that hamster wheel with this slightly older guy who is very much into sex, but not into feelings. Buck wants romance and genuine love. We know this because that's what he has been looking for throughout the last seasons. He still hasnt found himself, so as soon as he does, he will finally figure it out and find Eddie at the same time.

It's the only narrative that makes sense and would be satisfying to watch for Buck and Eddie. Let's just hope the show is smart enough to develop it further.

I just... overall this episode frustrated me so much. I feel like I want to hit something! I was ready to be swept away by great narratives and emotions. But I'm left feeling very unsatisfied about all of this. I feel like the season isn't done yet. I need one more episode to tie this all up and I know that I won't get it. AAAAH! I'm so annoyed.

[al-the-remix]

I know nothing about 911 but seeing all the bucktommy posts makes me really interested, if you don’t mind could you give a short introduction of the ship/which episode(s) to watch for them? Thanks!!

Hi! So the ship is a very new one and they don't have a lot of screen time yet, so their relationship only appears in season seven, episodes: 7x3 to 7x6 and then 7x9 and 7x10. Tommy Kinard as a side character also shows up in episodes 2x9, 2x12, 2x14 (in an off-screen capacity) and 2x16.

As for the introduction, the lore with this show runs sort of deep, but as condensed and simplified as I can give it to you: the decision to introduce bi!Buck and Tommy and his love interest was made very last minute (like as the first few episodes of season seven were coming out kind of last minute...) as the tv show switched networks from FOX to ABC and was working with a protracted season, (10 episodes in stead of 18), so this first season you see them together in has a very "let's see how well this works and if the general audience approves of it" kind of vibe.

Obviously, it worked for me! And the general reception has been good. Personally, I find their dynamic fun and genuine; the show runner was aiming for a non-heavy coming out story with a romcom twist, which I think they succeeded at. Buck (or "Evan" as Tommy calls him) is sort of the obvious favourite of the show in the audience and the writer's eyes, he's gotten a lot of development over the years, but has stagnanted recently on the romance side of things and also in his professional development, (which is partly the fault of the writers and partly just bad luck with maintaining actors). So I think a lot of fans are excited to see him "off the hamster wheel", as they say, in the love department. This opens up the possibility to explore other plot lines with him as a character in his professional life and personal life now that hes in a steady relationship.

Tommy we don't know much about yet, other than he was deeply in the closet when we first see him in the season 2 flash-back episodes. He's not initially a very warm, welcoming, and accepting person, but it's implied that a lot of that behavior was influenced by his environment and poor upbringing, and he is quick to make amends and befriend the main characters when he's shown to be in the wrong. He used to be in the army, and is a fan of cars, martial arts, and rom coms. The way he talks in the season seven episodes makes it clear that he's done a lot of self reflection since we've last seen him (and since he's come out). He's shown to be an open and honest person who does his best to show up for the people he cares for, and once Buck is in his line of sight, all that attention is turned his way.

I think with this ship what people are most excited about is the potential it demonstrates: Buck as a character is someone who's been on an aggressive misson of self discovery and understanding, he's been actively looking for a romantic partner to have a committed, mature relationship with, he's someone who's willing to give a lot of himself away to his partner and is desperately hoping to have that attention and affection mirrored back at him.

What little we know about Tommy so far makes it clear that he's mature and willing enough to be that person for Buck: if it works out and the writers allow him to be. I just really enjoy what little I've seen so far, and with the show being back to its regular 18 episodes next season and Tommy pretty much confirmed to return, I'm interested and invested and hopefully in where they may take this relationship next.

Also I feel like I need to add if you're going to engage with the fandom specifically for this ship, do it through the #bucktommy tag on tumblr, because it's a real mine field out there right now, lol.

[chevelleneech]

Unpopular opinion meets interesting observation: Tommy and Marisol were accidentally written as the same character.

Not a one to one match, but:

Both are characters who appeared in previous episodes

Both exist in s7 because Tim didn’t want to start over with brand new characters for Buck and Eddie’s love lives

Both triggered a “discovery” within their respective partner

Both are being presented as important love interests despite zero romantic development

We’ve seen one real date each from both pairings

We’ve seen a misunderstanding lead to a second chance from both pairings

We’ve seen both Buck and Eddie question their own behavior in regard to how they are dealing with their interest for Tommy and Marisol

Now, this isn’t a “which couple is better or worse” post. I think both have potential, but I am starting to wonder if perhaps Tim was so dead set on not repeating a previous cycle with Buck and Eddie’s romantic arcs, that he didn’t realize he wrote them into the same relationship? One is queer while the other is het, but there is no real difference. Except Marisol is a side female character, and unfortunately 911 does a terrible job giving bare minimum complexity to them, in a way they don’t seem to struggle to do with side male characters.

But I mean, Tommy showed up to the bachelor party and wedding because Buck asked, the same way Marisol showed up to help chaperon Chris’s first date because Eddie asked.

Point is, Buck and Eddie are on the same romantic journey. Which is what I’ve been trying to say with my other posts, but it took me a few days to finally articulate it. Now that I have, I can say this is why I don’t think there is a clear way to decipher which pairing will be endgame and which won’t. It’s why I think BuckTommy shippers are being exagerant in their bias, while Buddie shippers are being fearful in theirs. Because there is nothing happening either way.

We don’t know what kind of romance Tommy likes. We don’t know what kind of romance Marisol likes. We do know one of their similar hobbies though, lol. They both like repairing old things. We also know they both struggled to find themselves in their younger adulthood.

So you can’t want one gone but not the other without misogyny coming into play, because they are essentially the same character. And I do not for a second believe any of this was intentional. I’ll eat my pillow of it turns out it was, but I think Tim and ABC played it too safe with how Buck’s coming out was written, because they gave him a relationship instead of a personal self-discovery wherein he got to date around again or have a one night stand again yet otherwise stayed single this season.

Buck and Eddie are two characters whose stories are often intertwined, and from the looks of it, giving them both blank slate relationships at the exact same time has resulted in writing them into the same relationship. It’s both interesting and very funny, if I must say.

[elliespuns]

Can we talk about how talented the the last of us concept artists are? Not only does it paint a picture for us but it translates to their emotions & personality’s through there facial expressions.

The first bottom picture reads ‘Dina starts to doubt if the bloodshed & distress are worth the outcome as she dresses Ellie’s wounds’.

You can see the embarrassment & pain on Ellie’s face while being taken care of, while Dina concentrating on how to sew up her wounds is doubting if all this revenge is good for Ellie.

‘Ellie feels a deep love for her son, but her trauma threatens the safety of the tiny family. Below the concepts of Ellie carrying the baby while doing routine chores around the farm’

Those one shows the love Ellie truly has for JJ & Dina, but her PTSD & trauma is so bad that she physically nor is mentally stable enough as much as she tries (also LOOK AT JJS LITTLE SHOES!!! So cute!!)

‘The prologue to the game gives us our first & only look at Joel’s daughter, Sarah. Although Sarah is much more innocent, it was important to establish her as a down-to-earth girl who shares many qualities with Ellie. Sarah’s look needed to feel authentic & clearly show her relationship with Joel, while at the same time establishing her as a distinct character with her own sense of style. Her facial features are based on the actress who played & voiced her, Hanna Hayes’

I love that they really made Sarah her own concept art, yes she is important to show the relationship with Joel but then again putting her in a way that she IS her OWN character & not just a side character. & it really shows & connects to how Joel really finds & connects to Ellie seeing the light of Sarah he needed after all those years, something to fight for again, something to look forward to no matter how much Ellie hurt him, because deep down he saw her as a daughter when he denied his own feelings in chapter 1. Ellie knew she wasn’t his daughter, & made it clear in the second game. Showing how much her relationship changed with Joel going from. “I see you as my dad” to “ I am Not your daughter.”

Artists: Hyoung Taek Nam, John Sweeney (pic 1 & 2) , Alex Neonekis, John Sweeney (pic 3), & I can’t find the artist for Sarah’s concept art

Anyway, I’m gonna not go anonymous anymore! But I’ll add my emoji just in case - 🕸️

This is such a beautiful ask. What always got me about the concept art was how fitting it was to the final results of the game. When you think about it, the concept art was created long before the game even started developing. There were just some ideas and concepts (hence the art), but no scrip (at least not the whole thing, maybe like scraps), and yet when we look back at most of these arts, we can see how close they are to the characters we learned to love. This is what I call a precise job. You can see the game was done with love in the heart. 

The scene where Dina is taking care of Ellie is so well done. Be it on the concept art or on the screen, There's so much pain in Ellie in that scene; you wouldn't even have to see that she's all shaken, covered in blood, and crying. All you can do is close your eyes and listen to her voice when she speaks to Dina. Chills.

What I always found very interesting about Sarah, though, was why they chose to make her blond. This makes me even more curious about Joel's ex-wife because, this way, Sarah looks more like Tommy's daughter than Joel's (not suggesting that's true, lol). Looking at the concept art, there are versions of Sarah with darker hair. I wonder why they decided to make her blond all of a sudden. As if it had a reason and they were planning to show us a little of Joel's (blond) ex-wife in Part 3? Hm, who knows?

[ranbling]

Hi i had a couple of thoughts about BTs and their shipping, which i posted on my own blog a while ago, but I'd like to throw out here for your thoughts -

BTs and T stans' love for BT seems to be based on a LOT of assumptions and unfounded headcanons, the primary one being that T's racism and sexism and his entire unpleasant personality is not really him, it's all a facade, a self-defence mechanism he developed in response to the discrimination and repression he's suffered, but now that sunshine Evan is in his life, he's going to learn to open up and love again and be vulnerable and transform back into his true self, a sweet kind gentle warm affectionate compassionate loving man who's perfect for Buck - basically they think he'll turn into Eddie (and they're already writing fics like that).

(and some of them think s8 Eddie will turn into T - a lackey and Yes Man for Gerrard)

I feel like the other misconception/assumption that BTs make, which leads them to imagine and root for endgame BT, is that caring about and validating and accommodating buck's feelings and reassuring him and affirming him when he's insecure and showing an interest in and enthusiasm for things he's excited about (you know, like Eddie does)-

Doing all that is actually infantilising him and is bad for him! and what he REALLY needs is someone who doesn't particularly go out of their way to make him feel safe and comfortable and heard and understood. It's time for buck to grow up and mature and get over himself! and T in all his cynical snide casually dismissive condescension is the perfect partner to do that!! This is an ADULT relationship (with lots of sex), as BTs like to say ad nauseum

Hi!

I think the reason why the perception to Tommy's character is so divided is due to multiple things. First is Buck is bi! This is a great thing to be confirmed and a lots of people got so happy about it that they didn't really cared about Tommy (who is quite literally a plot device during that moment. Any male character could have replaced him and the scene would have stayed the same).

Second: many bt stans started to watch the show after the kiss and refused to go back and watch the rest of the show. Or they went back, but somehow missed the whole point of the Hen and Chimney Begins episodes. If you look into the tag for those episodes, it's filled with gifs about Tommy, raving about how good he looks and don't mention the fact that he was an asshole. There is also a mandela -effect happening and people are trying to make it seem like Tommy was actually in the background and did nothing wrong, when he was the most vocal in the whole group. Chimney Begins shows that Tommy was the one to start the racist comments. They're literally saying that Sal DeLuca (a guy who wasn't even in Chimney Begins and looked annoyed through the whole Hen Begins) was the one who acted like Tommy did in canon.

Third: Lou and his cameos. Not really talking about the fact that he kept raising the price to exploit the fans (though what were we expecting from a nepo baby, who posted pictures of himself lusting after women's asses to insta. Absolutely disgusting). He was the one who set the precedent when he called Tommy's behaviour teasing. He's the one who keeps coming up with tragic backstories to Tommy to excuse his behaviour. He was the one who lied multiple times on his cameos to make his character more relevant. He was the one who decided to fuel all the headcanons by confirming them as long as someone payed him 150+ dollars for a few minutes long video.

Also, I find the whole self-defense mechanism stupid. Tommy was a grown white man during Chimney and Hen Begins (he had to be 28 at the youngest during Chimney Begins for his military backstory to make sense). He could have protected himself by just staying in the background and not participating in the racism. He shown no sign of being uncomfortable with Gerrard's behaviour and the only time he looked annoyed was when Hen was giving her speech. It makes more sense that he just stopped saying bigoted things out loud because the captains after Gerrard were not tolerating it. There is a reason neither Hen or Chimney kept in touch with him after he left the 118. Chimney calling him once for assistance was for work reasons, and in s3 they both make very clear they don't keep in touch with anyone from the old 118.

All of their characterization of Tommy is only fanon. They totally disregard canon. In canon Tommy couldn't care less about Buck's feelings. He left Buck standing on the curb after he annoyed him (and I 100% believe Buck did nothing wrong, that was his first time on the date while being out) and somehow put the blame on Buck for it (which he tends to do a lot. He also blames the enviroment and Gerrard for his racism). Then he totally ignored Buck's planning of the bachelor party (how you show an interest in someone when you couldn't do the fucking minimum), made condescending comments (the henley comment). Being on call is not an excuse, he had to change anyways. Yes, he was in the hospital, but he probably was going there anyways.

I'm not gonna touch the last paragraph with a ten feet pole, because I hate that part and I fear I wouldn't be able to stay civili if I started to talk about that, however if you say things like "fuck the sad out of him" when Buck's dad is in the hospital and how concerned about Tommy is about him, I think it's pretty clear you're only fetishizing them

[slashers-and-rats]

texan nights.

thomas hewitt x fem!reader | sfw | fluff and confessions (sorta)

a/n: this is another character i write, but i don’t have as much experience with it as i do billy. either way, i love a big sweet boy.

thomas was not supposed to be out this late.

luda mae always told him his rest was very important, especially for such a big guy like him. he had important things to do during the day, things that required having a full night’s sleep and an abundance of energy. he didn’t ever disobey the rules, because they were there for a good reason. they were there because they benefitted him, he thought, they were for his best interest.

but you were the same way. from the day he saw you at the slaughterhouse, to the last day he was there and being yanked out, he couldn’t stop thinking about you. during hunts, during household chores, during the warm texas nights- it was you. he had never really experienced love before, but from all the stories he had skimmed through, he wanted it. or, he wanted something like it. he didn’t think he’d ever be like a normal man, but he wished he could at least feel what it was like to be somewhat average. just an average guy, with a woman he was so desperately in love with.

that’s why he was here. he was out past his curfew, listening to the crickets sing and watching the fireflies buzz around his head. he was just out past the property lines of his home, waiting.

when the slaughterhouse had shut down, you had given him your phone number and address. you two had become good friends while working there, and not having a place to meet up anymore was a little heartbreaking. he hadn’t ever really talked to you, obviously, but you had taken a liking to the strong, silent man. he enjoyed listening to you ramble, despite how brooding he looked while you did it.

you two had developed a routine. he’d wait until everyone was asleep, and sneak to the landline to give you a call. when you answered, and heard his breathing over the receiver, or sometimes a low grumble coming from his chest, you’d know it was him. the first few times it was hard to communicate. but, you got used to it, and with lots of work you managed to figure out how to get to his place, so you could have these little rendezvous.

tommy looked up when he heard your car. it was as quiet as could be along the dirt roads, and the lights had been turned off to keep suspicion low. you didn’t know why he had to sneak around, but you respected his wishes. you slid up beside him, parking a few feet away and hopping out of your car.

“hey! i hope i didn’t keep you waiting long, it’s a pretty chilly night out. you shoulda grabbed a sweater or something!” you spoke as you neared where he sat on a patch of grass. he gazed up at you.

you looked so pretty to him. he was much bigger, much rougher around the edges. he was so much different than you were. despite all this, he had tried to clean up the best he could. he had washed real good before bed, and had scrubbed his mask the best he could too. he had tied his hair up and out of his face. you always said you liked his eyes, and anything he liked he wanted you to have. he had even cleaned underneath his fingernails, just to make sure no dirt got anywhere on you. you weren’t dirty like him. you weren’t always covered in blood, digging through corpses and peeling skin off of cadavers. you were pristine in comparison to him, and he wanted to keep it that way.

you stepped up in front of him. his head was at the same height as your stomach, and he had to crane his neck for once to look at you. your smile shone in the moonlight. it was like twinkling stars. he reached up, grabbing at your hand and tugging you down into his lap, his arms immediately wrapping around your middle. he nestled into the top of your head and your hair, a content rumble coming from his chest.

“did you miss me?” you asked. he nodded wordlessly, running his hands up and down your sides. sometimes, after going awhile without seeing you like this, he took the time to track all of your details over again. he committed every nook and cranny to memory, so that when he was alone he could dream of you. even now, as you were pressed so closely to his body, he wondered if it was all a dream. maybe he was back home, and soon would hear the birds singing and the family begin to stir. “what’re you thinking about?”

your voice cut through his thoughts, and he pulled his head back so he could look down at you. the way you met his gaze, so gentle and sweet. he had to look away yet again, turning his head to stare off at some unimportant blade of grass. he wasn’t used to all this, you thought. he wasn’t used to being cared for and touched, at least not in this way. you weren’t his family, you weren’t roughhousing with him or tugging his hair to tease. you were being sweet. gentle. everything he knew you were.

he looked back down at you, studying each little detail of your face. the darkness obscured some of it, hiding away some of the finer features, but he knew how to fill in the blanks himself. he had much practice.

you leaned yourself against his chest, resting your head in the crook of his neck. your breath tickled his skin and made him whimper slightly. he hoped you hadn’t heard. the sound of the texan night was loud enough that maybe it had been drowned out. the way you giggled made him doubt this idea, though.

“hey, tommy? can i ask you something?” you pulled back enough that you could see his face yet again. he stared down at you with such intensity. he couldn’t fathom what you’d want to ask him. he didn’t know much, education never being something he cared for, and it’s not like he could answer with a long, eloquent response. he nodded slow, barely moving. “do you… um… do you like me?”

he nodded immediately, almost bewildered by such a question. was he not out passed curfew for you? was he not sitting out of his own comfort zone in the night, holding you to his chest, barely able to contain himself from squeezing you until you popped? how could you think he didn’t like you?

this must have all shown on his face, because you shook your head. “no, no, i mean… do you… ugh, this is so childish, but- do you like like me?” tommy still wasn’t following. his head tilted to the side in confusion, eyes boring down into you. you huffed, wishing he’d understand. you clarified, yet again, by saying, “tommy, do you like me the way a boyfriend would like a girlfriend?”

ah, now he understood. it made his face go hot immediately, and you could feel him shift awkwardly underneath your weight. he started glancing around again. usually he’d drop his head down so he could hide his face behind his hair, but he couldn’t with it tied up so nice. darn him for wanting to look like a gentleman for you! after some silence, he nodded. it was hesitant, but clear. it made you smile wide.

“i like you too,” you said, and he could barely take it. it was like he was just shot through the chest. it was the first of this kind of feeling for him. it was almost worrying. his heart was beating so fast, and his stomach was rolling around like a pig in mud. he was sweating too, despite the cool breeze rolling through the field.

“do you wanna kiss me?”

the question punched the air out of him. you could hear his breath hitch, and his head darted up immediately. he was staring through you, into you, as if to be looking for some sign this was all a sick joke you were playing. but it couldn’t be. you were you, you’d never play with him like that. no, that must’ve meant you were being serious…

tommy breathed in deep, before nodding again. he wanted you so bad. he had thought about this so many times. he had fantasized about what your lips would feel like against his. he wondered if you’d taste as sweet as you looked, or if maybe you were more of a well seasoned kind of woman. either way, he’d love it.

“can i kiss you now?” you asked, and he couldn’t hold back anymore. he pressed his lips to yours through the small hole in his mask. it was awkward at first, just a firm press of your lips together, and you hummed softly against him. you pulled away. he began to fret, wondering if he had messed up, but you just shook your head. “just follow my lead, okay?”

he watched you. you shut your eyes tight, hand pressing into the side of his face, before sliding around to the back of his head. he gasped, going to pull away, but you piped up, “i won’t look. i know how you feel about your face, but i promise i won’t look. not until you’re ready. i just wanna kiss you. properly.”

he sighed shakily, before nodding and helping you unbuckle his mask. it slid off and into your lap, and soon your lips were pressed soft against his. it was much better this way. you were so soft, so gentle, so caring in the way you guided him. your hands held his shoulders while you kissed him, so slow at first, but soon picking up a bit. a tongue darted out across his lips, and he gasped, allowing you to slip your tongue past his teeth. he was so happy he had brushed extra good today, because the way your tongue danced against his let him taste you just how he wanted. you were like a dessert in paradise, you were like the forbidden fruit, you were so tasty.

he pulled you closer by the hips, arms coiling around your middle and holding you in place as he licked into your mouth. it made you moan. he wanted you to make that noise again and again and again… he was learning quick. he bit at your lips, sucked on your tongue, pulled away occasionally to nip at your jawline and neck - he did everything he could to make you make those delectable noises. it was a song he never wanted to end.

he glided his mouth down your jaw and to your throat, sinking his teeth into the soft skin there. it made you gasp his name. the words sent a shock through his body, a feeling he couldn’t explain. it just made him squirm, hearing you call to him like that. it made him bite more, and suck along your skin, and purr low in his chest in pleasure. he was so happy to see you coming unravelled just for him. you were all his.

his lips travelled lower and lower, now in between your breasts, kissing over the exposed skin. your hand tangled in the hair at the base of his neck, pressing his face deeper into your flesh. you gasped and writhed on his lap. you were two slugs, intertwined. he thought that was so romantic. he sucked your skin into his mouth and bit at what he could, and your sounds only got louder, higher, sweeter, and then-

“tommy!”

thomas darted up from his bed, sweaty and flushed, body shaking slightly. his eyes darted around, finding he was in the familiar confines of his room back home. it made him feel sick, almost. you had been right there, right in his grasp, and right through his fingers you swept.

he dropped back down against his mattress, a heavy breath escaping him out of frustration. every day since the slaughterhouse closed, he had had these dreams of you. he wanted to see you again. he needed to. you were everything he wanted.

“tommy, c’mon, big guy, we gotta get to work,” hoyt hissed in the doorway, crossing his arms over his chest.

tommy gave an unenthusiastic thumbs up, and it was enough of a response that hoyt walked out of the doorway and to wherever luda mae needed him to be. tommy stayed there for just a moment, trying to gather the remnants of his dreams back into his arms to no avail.

soon, he gave up, slinking out of bed to go get ready for the day. another day of chores, and another day of wishing you were in his arms.

[mourninglamby]

i would pay insane money to hear about your thoughts on ctommy girlism because it’s actually such an important part of his character analysis to me

I’ve been wanting to make a patreon for stuff like this + art I don’t wanna post, so I’ve decided to go this route with the essay I will likely end up with based on this thesis. But I’ll use this post to summarize some thoughts im VERY confident about (and could be a sneak peek into what else the paper will entail)

C!tommy is fem-coded based off of fandom interpretation and reception, textual evidence, and meta analysis (will get more into meta in the big doc).

To start, a lot of this coding has to do with how he is victimized and why, which mainly concerns him craving approval from these older men (c!wilbur, c!dream, and even c!techno,) that he views as role models. Power imbalances are something that can also affect boys, yes, but this is where the coding comes in to set them apart. PLEASE REMEMBER Coding is used to identify traits that align with minority experiences, both good and bad. That does not mean c!tommy is LITERALLY a girl. It is a tool utilized in rhetorical analysis.

In this case, the constant subjugation of c!tommy by the men he yearns to trust, and subsequent self blame and denial when they hurt him fit into an experience closely associated with misogyny, and to go even further into the meta, a misogynistic view of feminine victimhood. The way c!tommy’s trauma interrupts his psychological and emotional development is received by thousands of fans who still deny his abuse even happened as “annoying”, “mean”, and “just as bad” as his perpetrator(s). This is observed from the existence of c!dream apologists and sympathizers, and to a more complicated extent, c!wilbur apologists. But I digress.

C!tommy is coded as feminine because in the majority of media centering victims of this kind of abuse, the character is a woman, and a woman can and will always be blamed for what happened to her. In the case of DSMP, this blame comes from the man who is protected by the spoils of his privilege as an oppressor, status in his community, and the many other people (predominantly young women) he has managed to manipulate to be in opposition to his victim. Fiction affecting real life and all…. Which is why I think this evidence of coding is so important.

To add another disclaimer for the bad faith warriors, being a victim does NOT make a character femme coded, however, the way he is treated in canon and the way the fanbase reacts to how he grapples with the lasting trauma is certainly rooted in misogynistic talking points.

Looking forward to writing more ^__^ thank u for being so interested anony. I’ve welcomed some friends who I trust very much to help me write it and I’m very excited.

addendum: there is no right or wrong way to interpret ctommy or dsmp or the response to how he was depicted... i only wish to start a conversation and get my thoughts out. if u disagree that is ur prerogative and i respect it <3

[god-i-hope-so]

The BoBs really think Ryan confirmed their ship is happening because he said "whatever happens happens" and he didn't outright say it wouldn't happen. Uhm he did say that in his "Eddie is a heterosexual man, Buck's straight friend that he came out to, and it's so nice that a straight man and a bi man can be friends" interview and y'all didn't believe him. Not to mention JLH telling them it wasn't going to happen, and then backtracking when the BoBs went crazy.

But we're the deluded ones for shipping bucktommy after just three episodes and Tommy being a plot device (apparently).

Hey, anon!

Well. People are free to think what they want, obviously. I don't even see much of what the BoBs are saying, only what is shared in the buck/tommy tags because I value my peace way too much to go look into the chaos.

"Whatever happens happens" means "you don't get to decide". Also how do they know that it's not Ryan who said no eventually?

They're angry because they now realize their fantasy won't become canon and like a bunch of toddlers who realize they won't have the toy they thought they would get, they throw a temper tantrum. And I can understand the disappointment. But not the reaction. Not the violence in their posts. There's no love for the show there, for the creative minds, for the effort of representation, for the people who work hard to make it happen. They're not fans. They just saw two cute men and projected their fantasies on them, whatever the story or the character development.

Yes, some choices don't make much sense in canon, I even myself would have enjoyed to see Eddie and Buck together at the beginning. It would have been cute, with Christopher loving them both so much too. But that's not what happened and they definitely wrote them in a way that doesn't leave any doubt if you don't try to read so hard between lines that don't even exist. People need to accept a story for what it is, and if they don't like it, they can live in complete denial of it. There's no shame in that but do it with respect. Your fantasy is yours.

The hate against Tommy is also their problem. They can hate him all they want but they twist everything about him to fit their hateful narrative. Queer characters deserve respect. Well, most of them, a queer pos is still a pos. But Tommy has been brought back into the show and written with respect for the character, for the story and for his purpose: being Buck's new romance. Not only he already existed in the show but also has history with the 118 and has a significant shared story with Hen and Chim. He's already a characters in itself, he just came back.

Having a character like Tommy is also more than just a interesting character. It's a necessary character. He fits the cishet macho mold so perfectly: veteran, pilot, firefighter, buff, confident, professional, brave. But he's GAY AF. And everything he does is respectful and kind. And haters have to rely on lying to show him in a bad light because so far, there's nothing. Imagine what this kind of character looks like for the average audience? It's great representation for us queer.

In the end, BoBs can hate all they want, Buck and Tommy together is canon, Tommy has only shown positive traits so far, he's shown sane boundaries and respect for other's. When haters have to rely on details, and still twist them, to justify their hate, you know they know they're wrong. They know, but they can't give up now that they've reach this level of hate.

All I would ask of them would be to stop the hate against real life people and stop pulling them into the drama (the live with JLH was NO THAT. Shame on them). Let the fandom be at war between ships if you need that to feel something but leave real people out of that, especially actors and Lou in particular. They're paid to play and this is not a service. You're not a client they have to satisfy because you paid for a specific performance. The bullying and entitlement need to stop.

[lover-of-mine]

I want to talk about the idea of “if season 7 was season 1, everyone would be shipping bt” because essentially what that is saying is “if these characters weren’t these characters everyone would ship them” because Tommy wouldn’t have his past with Chim, Hen, and Gerrard (at least we wouldn’t know it so you could make it anything you want like make it where he didn’t actually say or do anything bad under Gerrard) and Buck wouldn’t have his past with the 118 and his parents that tells us everything about his character (what he prefers the name Buck, why he’s so eager to please, his previous relationship with sex, etc).

Like sure, if you strip away all the character development you can ship any two characters because there’s nothing there to clash you can make up whatever you want. The reason so many of us don’t think these characters work together is because we KNOW the characters and what we know of their characters after 6 seasons makes them incompatible.

All that being said I would still argue that even if season 7 was season 1 I still wouldn’t be a big BT shipper id just be in the “eh they’re ok I guess” camp because they don’t have great chemistry and even without knowing the characters pasts and personalities Tommy still comes off stiff and dismissive - it’s just 10x worse when you know his past and you know Buck at his core. AND if season 7 were season 1 that just means they would reveal that past likely in a different way and so it would become apparent eventually how bad of a fit they are.

I agree. If you need to just plain erase most of canon to justify things, you're not shipping characters, you're shipping an idea, and sure, you can headcanon anything you feel like, but you can't expect everyone to agree with you because you are creating different characters. The show made a point to show that they are incompatible and if you take a minute to look at it without the high that comes with Buck being bi, you can see that. Sure, it would be less obvious, but we would still have Buck and Eddie being established as partners because there is a lot of buddie's friendship in the season, and while Tommy would be easier to like without the begins episodes context and the way he's all of Buck's previous love interests in one person, so we wouldn't have the worry that Buck is making the same mistakes he always does, he still comes out as dismissive, the situation would just be easier to ignore because we wouldn't know enough. We might not have enough context on Tommy, but we do have enough context on Buck to infer that this is going nowhere. If the only way to pretend they are going somewhere is to erase the whole show, then do they really have something?

[kiirotoao]

Thinking about how Mileven could break up. I don't see how Mike can be the one to do it. Mainly because it has to be done in a way where El isn't the victim of heartbreak, otherwise it makes Mike look really bad to the audience and the audience needs to root for Mike and (Byler's) success. (At least to those who are not already there).

If she's the one to break things off, however, it could make Mike the sympathetic character. As long as he is simultaneously having gay realizations, that way it's not as if he's just choosing Will as a back up plan. (obviously Will isn't but it needs to feel organic and independent from his relationship with El)

Does that mean the break up has to be El driven or just mutual? (Mutual at least seems to have the least amount of breakup "negativity").

The other factor is Mike or El finding out about the painting. But I would argue that if El finds out and decides to leave Mike for the sake of Will happiness.... doesn't that just make her even more the sympathetic party and Mike is the one she loves.

If season 5 Eleven starts to move away from Mike romantically, I guess that wouldn't be an issue anymore

It all depends of how it's written. I want Byler to happen but for me it still needs to be executed well. The multiple time jumps could also help with giving more Byler/Mileven space to play out.

Thats it! Thanks

Thanks for the thoroughly written ask, dear anon! I love having some content to gnaw on 👌

So, yes, the question of how would Mike and El break up. I really hope that it’s mutual and that they both realize that they simply aren’t working romantically.

I find it interesting how you factor in sympathy and perception of Mike and El. In the Steve-Nancy-Jonathan triangle, I think that perception is relevant. Nancy is shamed for bringing Jonathan over. Steve and Nancy are the affluent power couple of Hawkins High, and Jonathan enters from a down-to-earth, poor family. It’s the talk of the entire school when Steve and Nancy get together - everyone knows their names. The thing is that I believe that Nancy has romantic chemistry with Steve as well as Jonathan, so for them, emotional bond and sympathy when breaking up is quite felt since choice and weighing options of relationships is highlighted for their dynamic.

But as for the Will-El-Mike triangle, their status isn’t the focus, it’s their interactions. That’s not to say that Steve, Nancy, and Jonathan’s interactions don’t matter, but as kids, Will, El, and Mike are still much more clearly developing and changing. Their concepts of romance are portrayed to us as much more consequential of each other rather than outside influence. Take Nancy and Steve being influenced by Tommy and Carol. Take Nancy and Jonathan being influenced by Murray. Those types of waves in questioning relationships don’t happen between the kids. The only “outside” influence to muddle Mike and El’s relationship is Hopper who doesn’t or at least didn’t like Mike and made him lie to El, but otherwise, the kids are never under scrutiny or peer pressure to do things to/with the person they like.

What also makes Will, El, and Mike unique from Steve, Nancy, and Jonathan is that all three of the youngsters know each other very well. Mike and Will are best friends. Mike and El are bonded after finding Will together. El and Will became sister and brother. They are not mutually exclusive, they exist in each other’s lives very tightly. Meanwhile, Steve and Jonathan haven’t had a proper conversation (besides arguments) in canon. Ever.

So, yes, I think that a typical sympathetic break up would blur things for Will, El, and Mike, but the thing is that I also don’t think that that’s how the break up will be handled.

At the crux of it all, they both love Will. They both clearly want him to be happy, too, and I think that that starts at acceptance. If Will comes out to the both of them, I think that they’ll be able understand what he means and sweetly realize that their entire situation works out for the better if Mike and El break up. It won’t be as smooth as that, of course - and, actually, I think that this might be the hardest part of the process as Will would probably feel too guilty to ever come out to either of them and risk changing what he has with them let alone expose his lie to Mike - but I think that all the pieces can clearly fall into place as their loves for each other mix and collide.

I know that Will is a point of contention and consideration, and I think that it wouldn’t feel as complete of a break up if Mike and El don’t address him and what he means for their standing relationship. Will did so much for Mike and El in season 4. He tried to push El to tell the truth about the bullying, and he tried to encourage Mike that he was “the heart” and that El needed him. Although neither of those pushes ended up in full, fleshed-out conversations, that’s not on Will. That’s on Mike and El. And the fact that neither of them could deepen their conversations even with Will’s help says a lot to me. But yeah, we’re here leaning on a break up, I know that I’m not here to argue that. The question is how.

I think that Will’s painting needs to be addressed, and once it is, no matter where Will possibly coming out factors into this, El will realize that her brother has a crush on Mike and not a girl, Mike will realize that he’s fallen in love with Will’s affections and thus him, and they’ll both be able to sort out their circumstances. Of course, it’s not that simple, but I think that they’ve come far enough to discern how to handle the difficulties. El needs to know that she’s not the monster first, and Mike needs to know that he’s worth more than being El’s support first. Then their disagreements about their perceptions will come more fully into view, which will lead to a mutual understanding.

I agree that it would be tough if it was one-sided in either direction. Because in order for it to be one-sided and difficult would mean that either of them haven’t fully grappled with who they are.

But if they do understand who they are, it puts many awkward notions at ease. Because if El is for Will’s happiness, she’s also for her own. She doesn’t have to be against herself. She can see how Mike isn’t the one romantically for her and that she can have someone who is openly affectionate, who writes “love” on every letter and note. He doesn’t see her qualities like a partner but as a confidant, and that’s okay. They can still be great together, they can still be close. And if Mike is able to realize his sexuality and point of affection for Will as romantic, it’s not like he suddenly needs to remove El from his life. Hell, El and Will are siblings now, so whoever he’s with, he’s going to have the other there. I think that El is special to Mike; she always will be. She’s the first person that’s given him this opportunity of a lifetime, and I think that he can love her as fondly as ever, just not as a girlfriend anymore.

Their bond as each other’s protectors and safe places will trump their being exes, if you ask me.

So here’s how I dream it to go: Mike and El talk. It’s casual at first, but they’re both still tense after all the tragedy. They talk about how scared/worried they are, how they just don’t seem to hold each other up. Even though they’re both trying, something is off. They like being together, but if this is love, then it doesn’t feel quite right. They both agree. Mike still genuinely thanks her for the painting to which things shift. El doesn’t know about the painting. It was for him? Mike is now flustered. El realizes that Will is in love with Mike. They piece it together aloud, and she asks how Mike feels about him. All it takes is for Mike to convey that he does like Will. He apologizes. He feels horrible, guilty. But El just puts her hand on his. It’s okay. She didn’t realize it, either. The fault isn’t always on one thing, she’s learned. They hug. Something like that.

I want to close this by saying that I agree that it all comes down to how the break up is written, and I think that the writers have all the pieces to make it pretty lovely. Will, El, and Mike all love each other very much, it’s just a matter of sorting out the displaced romance without losing anything other kind of love for each other.

Basically…

Their central bond of unconditional love doesn’t ever need to change, just the status of their flexible relationships.