#Suicide Mention

[elljayvee]

today's topic: that fucker RoundUp

It's time for more Don't Believe Everything You Read with me, elljayvee!

A friend encountered this the other day: 

This contains a lot of false information and should not be spread around as true. It's scaremongering in the first half and almost entirely wrong in the second half.

I will state my credentials and biases up front: I am an inactive Penn State Master Gardener (which means I have all the education and credentials, but am not currently an active volunteer), I have a permaculture design certificate and an active permaculture garden on my property, and I'm an agriculture & food systems researcher. I also fucking hate RoundUp (aka glyphosate), which I think is very bad, especially at industrial scales. I pretty much think all agricultural inputs have serious problems at industrial scales; RoundUp isn't special. In general, and particularly for home-scale or small-scale ag use, I prefer non-chemical controls; in my own garden I use manual control for all weeds except for poison ivy and tree of heaven, for which I use 2,4-D foliar herbicide. 2,4-D is also pretty nasty stuff, but I use it because unlike RoundUp it's very widespread in my environment already -- some of my neighbors have their lawns sprayed and that's what the lawn companies use. Me spraying a stray tree of heaven once a year isn't even a drop in the 2,4-D bucket of the block. 

Let us take these pieces of Wrong Information from back to front!

Dish soap: people love dish soap in the garden. Just love it. There's mixed evidence on what it can do in the garden but it's completely ineffective against weeds -- the reason it's so popular in garden applications is that it doesn't harm plants. How is something that doesn't harm plants going to be good weed control? Answer: it isn't. It does nothing against weeds. The one thing dish soap is proven to be good at is assisting with aphid control -- the best aphid control is manual/physical control, like blasting aphids off plants with water, and dish soap assists with that and also seems to do some damage to the aphid. Any other pest control involving "soap" almost certainly means "insecticidal soap", not dish soap. 

Takeaway: Unless you're trying to control aphids, don't use dish soap in the garden. (And make sure it's dish SOAP, not a detergeant. In the US, original Dawn is the go-to.) For anything but aphid control, you're just wasting soap.

Salt: No. This is bad. It will definitely help kill some weeds, but it's a bad idea. Don't put extra salt into soil. It's bad for the soil and for the inhabitants of soil; it's bad for water. One cup of salt isn't going to kill a river or a stream or whatever but if you're worried about killing animals, let's just say that poor innocent things like amphibians and worms do not do well in hypersaline environments. Do not use table salt like this. 

Takeaway: Leave table salt out of your garden altogether. You're just wasting salt, messing up soil, and hurting animals.

Vinegar: This is completely fine. Depending on the species of weed you have, it may work very well indeed. However, household white vinegar is only about 5% acetic acid, while horticultural vinegar -- which is sold as a weed killer commercially -- is 20% acetic acid, and works MUCH better on a MUCH wider variety of weeds. It also seems to work best when it is mixed with canola oil. Horticultural vinegar is not as safe for your skin/eyes/etc. and you should follow the safety instructions on the bottle when you use it. If you would like some more information on how well vinegar works to control weeds, you may enjoy reading "Impact of Acetic Acid Concentration, Application Volume, and Adjuvants on Weed Control Efficacy" (Webber et al. 2018). 

Takeaway: Household vinegar in the garden is fine and may work for some species of weeds. Horticultural vinegar works better. Follow safety information when using it. 

Now for RoundUp (aka glyphosate). 

RoundUp will kill pollinators, bees, hives: I will include all invertebrates that seem affected by RoundUp spray in this category. There is good evidence that AT INDUSTRIAL SCALE, RoundUp negatively affects pollinators and other beneficial invertebrates, such as pest-controlling spiders. When applied to a broad area in heavy concentrations, it seems to have lethal effects (particularly in bees who ingest it or come into physical contact with it), and it also seems interfere with reproduction in some bees, wasps, and spiders.

"Is glyphosate toxic to bees? A meta-analytical review" (Battisti et al 2021) is a good meta-analysis about toxicity to various bee species. (It is paywalled, sorry -- but some of its sources are not.) This analysis found that it's easy for bees to get a fatal dose from pollen from sprayed flowers, physical contact with sprayed flowers, or ingestion of nectar from sprayed flowers. At individual garden scale, you are extremely unlikely to harm more than a few individual insects unless you're doing something very weird, like, I don't know, pouring a whole bottle of RoundUp over your patio, or specifically filling flowers with drops of RoundUp. 

Takeaway: In general, I recommend not using RoundUp in your garden. If you do use RoundUp, snip off flowers from the weeds or do not spray the flowers, to avoid pollen contamination and lower the likelihood of bees touching the RoundUp. I strongly suggest instead using manual controls, which is what I do -- I weedwhack and hand-pull weeds (again, with the exception of poison ivy and tree of heaven). 

RoundUp will kill your pets and kids and you: In general, not unless your pets, your kids, or you drink it. This is how it kills mammals: a mammal drinks it. There is some evidence of toxicity to amphibians, but again, this is at industrial scale and high concentrations, not a household preparation used on like 5 weeds in your patio. There is conflicting evidence on whether or not glyphosate is carcinogenic in humans, but the risk -- if it exists -- seems at this point to be low and probably mainly affects agricultural workers who are regularly exposed to a LOT of the stuff.

Takeaway: Secure RoundUp from pets and children. I personally keep garden chemicals in a padlocked plastic box in the garage. If you are suicidal and may drink RoundUp, call your area's suicide prevention hotline or ask someone for help. If you are an agricultural worker regularly in contact with glyphosate in the environment your best resource is probably United Farm Workers (in the US), your local farm workers' org, or La Via Campesina (which is an international farm workers' organization that has taken a stand against the widespread industrial use of glyphosate). 

If you would like to read more about RoundUp toxicity, try: "Glyphosate Poisoning" (Bradberry, Proudfoot, and Vale 2004) and "Glyphosate: A review of its global use, environmental impact, and potential health effects on humans and other species" (Richmond 2018) -- this one is particularly useful because it collates a LOT of research together in one place, so you can get to many, many other articles from it. 

General takeaways: You should take precautions if you use RoundUp not to hurt bees in your garden, but you are unlikely to hurt anything larger than invertebrates if you do use it. Do not use random weedkilling formulas involving random household items in your garden. In particular, dish soap and salt have almost no good garden uses at all and if someone tells you to use them, they are probably misinformed at best. There is a lot of complete bullcrap out there on the internet.

If you want to use organic controls for stuff in your garden, which lots of people do, a good place to start is the OMRI lists. Items on these lists are approved for organic use in the US or Canada and free to download. You can also look for information from Extension in the US about organic controls and home gardening advice; county extension is government-funded and provides a wide variety of free educational material about gardening, forestry, agriculture, etc.

[an-illegal-gay]

i hate it when people say "kys" because hey you never actually know whether someone's gonna take that seriously or not

[ooppo]

Medieval authors were so fucking funny. In "The Faerie Queene" this guy comes up to the main hero and is like "Don't go over to that cave, there's a guy inside that makes people kill themselves." And the hero is like "Bet." and goes into the cave. Then the old man (literally called Despair) is like "If you die, you can't commit sin." and can you guess what happened.

[cutecipher]

Remembering when i called the suicide hotline and they insisted on misgendering me so i was choking out through sobs that i was a woman and she wouldnt stop so i just had to hang up

[lastoneout]

Seein' too many Twitter refugees asking if they'll get in trouble for saying "kill yourself" to people and while no, you're not gonna get nuked from orbit, that is maybe something you just shouldn't be doing in general perhaps?? Maybe telling people to kill themselves is bad actually?? Some of y'all are wild, why is the first thing you can think to ask on a new platform if you can send one of the worst kinds of harassment to people?? Grow tf up and learn how to use the block button. It'll do wonders for your mood, trust me.

[dyggot]

got scared of notes, sorry. might make rebloggable again someday

[turing-tested]

doing research on people's preferred formats for how restaurants have their menus displayed online and i'm including responses to the post to send to my boss but um. i don't think i can include this specific response

[prokopetz]

"This webcomic got me through some pretty bleak times. In fact, it might not be exaggerating to say it saved my life."

"Maybe I should read it, too."

"What? God, no – it's fucking terrible."

[aromanticduck]

Sorry if you're already over 50, I ran out of room (you're welcome to leave your thoughts in the tags or replies!)

If you're younger than 10, get the fuck off Tumblr. People are saying swears on here!

[EDIT: It's OK to vent a bit about negative feelings in the comments/tags, but if you're gonna talk about killing yourself, do me a favour and fucking don't]

[become-a-robot]

[incognitopolls]

We ask your questions so you don’t have to! Submit your questions to have them posted anonymously as polls.

[awakefor48hours]

Please stop telling people, for any reason, to kill themself. Stop advocating for suicide in any form or capacity.

[sweatermuppet]

[guy who is trying so hard to not express his suicidal ideation] another day haha. back at it!

[moonlayl]

I hope no one who supported Israel, I hope no one who said “Israel has the right to defend itself”, I hope no one that stayed silent, I hope no one that stayed neutral, I hope no one who cried “both sides”, I hope no one preaching “nuance”, EVER gets to experience another peaceful day again. I hope every last one of them suffers for the remainder of their lives. I hope the guilt eats at them every single day to the point they can’t take it anymore and they choose to do the world a favour and off themselves. I hope every last one of them pays severely for their crimes and for their support of genocide. I hope their very existence is plagued with nightmares. I hope they experience what it’s like to have never ending bombs rain over their heads.

Whatever happens in Gaza tonight or tomorrow or after, know that we won’t forget and we will never forgive.

[cemeterything]

falling on your sword is harder than it looks. i keep trying but every time i manage to line it up it falls over before i can spear myself so i just fall to the ground on top of it unharmed. i'm so embarrassed i could kill myself but as i've already established that's kind of the problem here.

[invasive]

Hello Meshi Nation