#THIS is how you write menelaus

[dootznbootz]

With how I'm planning my fics, since Menelaus and Agamemnon spend some years at Tyndarius' palace, I kind of have them all be childhood friends in a way before Agamemnon and Menelaus take back their kingdom (Aga is around 19, Menelaus 15 when they leave. 5-6 years later they get married.) With how their marriages work out when talking about "Old times", Odysseus is the "odd one out" as he was the only one who didn't grow up alongside them. The poor guy is left out.

Odysseus: "Wait, why is everyone laughing? What does that mean? I don't get it." Penelope: "Well you see-" Goes on about a silly story but the inside joke is dumb. "...You probably would've had to have been there to get it" Odysseus:

[specialagentartemis]

I do think it’s funny how consistently Menelaus is portrayed in Greek tragedy as just, a total asshole. Rude and cruel and just the fucking worst.

This is because Menelaus was the mythic king of Sparta, and Sophocles and Euripides who were writing these plays were Athenian, and more to the point, Athenian living during the Peloponnesian War against Sparta. It’s literally just the ancient version of making all the antagonists in every American movie in the 80s and 90s Russian. Writers going, You know the guys we’re at war with? They SUCK

[aliciavance4228]

The Iliad: Funny Moments

The year was 850-750 BCE. No phones or underwear in sight. Pants were for the uncivilized only. Unibrows were attractive. And then, one day, Homer decides to write the first Greek Mythology Fanfiction ever, called "Troy Story".

Here is a list of moments from the Iliad which I personally consider to be quite hilarious:

1. Early on in Book 2, before the enormous list of Greek fighters and ships:

Agamemnon tries to motivate/test the army by claiming that he's given up and they're going home. This backfires, as a stampede for the ships ensues.

In response, Athena comes down and gives Odysseus a pep talk. He promptly and unceremoniously takes Agamemnon's scepter out of his hands and runs around brow-beating and occasionally actually beating men who were turning from the fight. It all comes to a head when he takes the scepter and beats the crap out of the Argives' resident disfigured hunchback who was doing nothing but making jokes at the Argive leaders' expense. In fact, the narrative itself stops and mentions that the scene was so hilarious, the soldiers in-story were laughing raucously.

Within Agamemnon's speech, his roundabout method of explaining how badly the Greeks outnumber the Trojans: let's say they have a truce, and each side takes a census, and each group of ten Greek soldiers gets one (male) resident of Troy to pour their wine. "There would be many tens of men lacking a pourer of wine."

2. At one point early in the story Paris steps out among the Trojan soldiers, described as looking like a god, and dares any Greek soldier to come up and face him in battle. Menelaus steps forward to answer the call—and Paris promptly flees back behind his soldiers.

3.Menelaus beating Paris up with his bare hands, while the latter still has his sword. The dramatic way in which it's written makes it a tad more serious, until you remember that Menelaus is choking Paris with the strap of his own hat.

4. Throughout the book, the Greeks continuously throw spears at Hector, but Apollo just deflects them into his charioteer instead, before Hector just picks up another random guy off the battlefield. This happens numerous times throughout the book that it's almost a running gag.

5. The Greeks send an embassy to beg Achilles to come join the fighting again. At first he receives them in friendship, but when he's heard them out, he has Patroclus start passive-aggressively preparing a bed for the only member of the embassy he's invited to spend the night, to signal to the others it's time for them to leave. Thus proving that "it was so nice to see you, but wow, look at the time, we should be getting to bed!" is a tactic Older Than Dirt.

6. When Hera seduces Zeus to distract him, he describes how attractive she is by comparing her with some of the other women he's slept with. It takes about 20 lines in the original Greek.

7. During the battle between the men and gods, Artemis squares up with Hera after her brother decides against fighting Poseidon. You'd think Artemis, the epic huntress and receiver of human sacrifice she is, armed with a powerful bow and fitting the Action Girl trope to a tee would utterly wreck the seemingly frilly, stuck up, less capable Hera. Hera instead chastises Artemis for being a brat biting off way more than she can chew, gives her a verbal tongue lashing before snatching Artemis's bow away before she can get a shot off to give her a lashing with that. Artemis gets wailed on so badly she literally is sent running away crying home to her daddy Zeus.

8. One tangent mentions Hades making a grand entrance at Pylos, only to be immediately shot with one of Heracles' arrows, forcing him to abandon the fight and flee to Olympus to heal. Later, Poseidon makes an earthquake so strong Hades jumps out of his chair in fear that the Underworld will be exposed due to the quake.

9. Early on in the epic, King Priam calls to Helen to explain to him who is leading the Greek army - Agamemnon, Odysseus, Menelaus, etc - because Priam doesn't know who they are. The Greeks have been at war with his kingdom for nine years before this point. One would imagine who had such a role would be at the forefront of his thoughts or that he would at least bother to remember their names, especially since a Pre-Iliad episode had Odysseus and Menelaus before him arguing that Helen be returned.

10. After a long discussion of their ancestries, Glaucus and Diomedes shake hands and exchange armor as a pledge of Sacred Hospitality. The narrator notes that Glaucus got ripped off, because his armor was worth over ten times as much.

11. A wounded Sarpedon thinks he's about to die and begins giving Hector a Bury Me Not on the Lone Prairie speech. Hector, who he'd been arguing with several verses back, runs right past him without answering.

12. The standard heroic epithets being used at incongruous times. Godlike Paris hiding from Menelaus, godlike and enduring Odysseus running away while Diomedes yells at him to come back, Menelaus being called "beloved of Ares" while Ares is trying to get him killed, glorious Ajax the Lesser taking a spill face-first into ox dung...

13. Menelaus is shot and wounded. Agamemnon immediately begins mourning his brother and gets through a whole speech before Menelaus can get a word in edgewise to explain that he's still alive.

Credits: TV Tropes

[hermesmoly]

rate all the greek mytho married couples from most to least interesting (or your favorite to least favorite, depends on you!)

For fun I’ve split them into four categories:

The Really Interesting category, made their relationship everyone’s problem:

- Zeus and Hera (duh)

- Helen and Menelaus (happy ending)

- Helen and Paris (oof! ending)

- Odysseus and Penelope (has a whole word dedicated to their like-minded thinking)

- Rhea and Cronus (tragedy and cannibalism)

- Jason and Medea (tragedy and filicide)

- Clytemnestra and Agamemnon (tragedy and filicide and mariticide and matricide and misogyny and and OH gods-)

- Peleus and Thetis (the arranged mortal marriage blues, but in my head Thetis immortalized Peleus somehow by force and keeps him in her attic) (Because gods be damned if she will be the only one doomed to grieve Achilles)

- Orpheus and Eurydice (mf really went to hell for her and still didn’t get her back :<)

- Hector and Andromache (relatively the most normal ones in this category but still very tragic. Like don’t even ask.)

- Hecuba and Priam (them too)

The Really Cute couple category, bonus if it took them long to get there:

- Hephaestus and Aglaia

- Eros and Psyche

- Dionysus and Ariadne

- Perseus and Andromeda (they kinda remind me of Prince Philip and Aurora which is cute)

- Hebe and Heracles (listennn. they’re cute and important to the Heracles-Hera feud ending)

- Hippomenes and Atalanta (RIP Meleager)

- Philemon and Baucis (one of my fave Zeus myths)

- Alcestis and Admetus (Orpheus and Eurydice but with a happy ending thanks to the interference of Apollo)

- Iphis and Ianthe (trans man rep is good someone PLEASE write about them)

- Tethys and Oceanus (placing them here idc they are cute in my head!! The only titan couple who survived rip to Coeus/Phoebe and all the failed marriages thanks to the Titanomachy)

The Uhhh… Okay Category

- Hades and Persephone (placing them here because while I do think their relationship is interesting AND I find good various retellings of them (excluding LO) like Hades Supergiant, Hadestown, etc I long for more neutral/nuanced takes on the kidnapping, not just by their romance (or lack of romance) but Demeter’s role in the story to be more respected. (It also can’t be helped that HxP has the most over saturated greek mythology content everywhere that people get tired of seeing them, especially portrayed as the “only good greek myth couple” like okay get outta here)

- Gaia and Uranus (I like them, their relationship is clearly important for Cronus’ succession story, but their conflict to me seems so.. short lived? Like you have your son castrate your husband for imprisoning your less appealing babies but now the strife is gone and you work together to tell your son he is destined to be overthrown by his son and telling your grandson to cannibalize his wife as good advice??? Like good for them ig but Rhea and Cronus just do it better imo)

- Hypnos and Pasithea (getting ur wife from a deal with her mom that makes you commit treason by inducing your king with sleep… nothing sketchy about this at allll) (but maybe they’re cute and functional besides that who knows)

- Ceyx and Alcyone (in one version they didn’t do it, in the other they’re just… very dumb to call themselves Zeus and Hera.)

- Procris and Cephalus (eos RUINS lives)

- Hephaestus and Aphrodite (lets be glad it ended bc while they are interesting and Hephaestus did make their marital strife public, I just think they had a better relationship after the divorce)

The Kinda Boring category (to me, subjectively, put down the pitchforks)

- Poseidon and Amphitrite (do they have one myth together that isn’t the Delphin seduction myth… Amphitrite is nice to Poseidon’s worst son. That’s. That’s kinda it. I wish we had more, like how they are with their children or literally anything else to depict a dynamic between them. Especially since they ARE supposed to be the king and queen of the sea. But nope. At least with Oceanus and Tethys they’re both obscure in their personalities so headcanoning stuff is fun to me. Poseidon having a well established personality and Amphitrite… oh dear Amphitrite…)

- Cadmus and Harmonia (they’re a couple in order become ascendants of more tragic humans like Actaeon, Semele and that’s it. They become Snakes in the end to repent for Cadmus’ mistake. Nothing really about their relationship with each other)

- Deucalion and Pyrrha (The Greek rendition of Christianity’s Noah’s Ark and yeah. Thats it)

[jules-ln]

Opinion of character ages in the Trojan War/Epic Trojan Cycle

I've actually been thinking about this lmao

So this are my headcanons for some ages at the beginning of the war (if you want the iliad age add 9 years lmao):

🔹️Achilles 16. Very young, very stupid

🔹️Patroclus 18 not that much older than Achilles, I know some people like more when Pat is older, but I prefer Patroclus being a young man for more tragic effect

🔹️Diomedes 18, a couple of months younger than Patroclus but looks older, like at least 25

🔹️Odysseus 28, yess, the age gap and the headcanon that I have of Odysseus just using Diomedes for convenience makes OdyDio toxic Yaoi for me lmao

🔹️Penelope 25

🔹️Antilochus 14, I have the headcanon that Nestor didn't let him fight during the first years of the war, he was just there because he literally begged his dad to let him accompany him

🔹️Automedon 20, he's the real responsible adult

🔹️Big Ajax 22

🔹️Teucer 25, listen, I'm trying to do the mental math of when exactly Heracles went to Troy, but I'm going to be honest, Greek mythology is a mess, so I'm just going to say that Teucer was the older brother, also because I imagine him to be small, (like 1.60) so it's funny to me that of all the cousins (Achilles, Ajax and him) He's the oldest yet the smallest lol

🔹️Agamemnon 36

🔹️Menelaus 30

🔹️Helen and Clytemenestra 38

🔹️Iphigenia 16, this is before the war started 🥲

🔹️Paris 22

🔹️Cassandra and Helenus 25

🔹️Hector 36

🔹️Andromache 22

🔹️Aeneas 30

🔹️Troilus 13

🔹️Polyxena 15

🔹️Priam 60

🔹️Hecuba 58

🔹️Deidamia 17

🔹️Pyrrhus/Neo (I forgor how to write his name so I'm just calling him Neo) 2

🔹️Nestor... old

And that's everyone that comes to mind lmao, but I have the feeling that I'm forgetting somebody important

[jewishdainix]

My thoughts on paris the musical 💛 (spoilers!)

Stuff I liked:

The characterization!

When it comes to illiad interpitations I don't usually like it when Helen falls in love with Paris - here it works and its in large part of the characterization. Helen is aware and smart and contenplative. She isn't made into a "Strong Female Character" but neither is she made the dumb pretty face. And paris is a fool! She calls him a fool! They are still in love with eachother. Like I can't explain how well the creators managed to balance these traits that should contradict eachother! But they work so well in this.

Menelaus regreting going after helen and seeking revenge when he sees she loved paris. It did the characters and how they were presented well.

Another thing is helen being a "human counterpart" of aphrodite. Chilling.

I have to write a part about achilles and patroclus's characterizations. They are not what I expected, but I fell abseloutly in love with them! Achilles being cocky, patroclus being loud (WHOS SHOUTING?) just sitting at the side draped on eachother making comments. It was incredible. It makes the closer momente between them, like patroclus telling achilles he knows about the child inside him BECAUSE HE WAS THERE WHEN ACHILLES WAS JUST A CHILD, BECAUSE HE WAS A CHILD WITH HIM, hit so hard and be so fascinating. Same with when patroclus is talkign to agamemnon.

Cassandra. Enough said.

The music!

So fucking good. I love rock operas so much. I did have a bit of a hard time adjusting to the sound, since I don't listen to music from that time period much, like. At all. And there were dome songs I had to skip but it was soooo good. So fucking good.

PARIS, YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER. Just. Fucking everything about cassandra. I swear my thoughts are more coherent than this. I swear. Cassandra's parts are sooo briliant. I can't even put those thoughts down. Its so good. Honestly listen to paris the musical if only for cassandra. Fucking hell she and her music are incredible.

Ulysses's small part in 'oh paris' was another thing I'm in love with. I love how it shows his cunning and her warning. It proves her right and I don't think they even talk to eachother in that song but it still manages to paint a dynamic/contrust between them. Fucking incredible.

Most parts about ulysses. Seaks peace and security lonely his road to achieve them . What if I commited murder

The song where the trojans were calling paros a a slut. That was so funny

Hell or high water. I will cry

Stuff I didn't like:

This mudical feels like it has a lot of loose ends with the themes it presents. Like, I really like the theme presented in "a head without a heart" of the importance of both athena and aphrodite . It was mentioned later by ulysses (another cassandra ulysses connection :D!!!) but it was such an interesting idea especially with how it relates to paris.

I wish they explored more all they set up in "charole". It was such a good opening song and I wish its themes appeared more throughout the musical.

I really don't like "love has power". Like as a theme its good but giving it to hector was a fucking waste. He did not deserve this theme, he did not show anything related to it. And furthermore I didn't like how the song sounded.

Adding it back in the finale was ok, but the fact that it was first sung by hector makes it feel so unconnected and weak.

I wish the musical was longer, so itd allow for ecploring the characters more thougrowly. And the music is very good, so it wouldnt hurt to have more songs. I wanted to know the characters better. It should have been longer.

Closing thoughts:

Please listen to this musical!! It is so worth your time and it is so awsome.

[johaerys-writes]

I know what your mythological otp is, but do you have a brotp and a notp?

BROTPs

I have some brotps though not that many, mainly because if there's a pair of fictional dudes that are just reaaaally close and always have each other's backs and everything I just imagine them secretly or not so secretly boning LMAO (I have a gremlin brain sorry) but here's what comes to mind:

Odysseus & Diomedes: I love reading their Iliad shenanigans and they also have great chemistry in TSOA so I always imagine them as this pair of friends that always have the absolute worst ideas to get everyone in trouble lolol.

Achilles & Ajax: they're technically cousins but I still love thinking about their friendship and how much respect and rapport there is between them. Some sources have them both training under Chiron, and also in the Iliad Ajax is basically the only person Achilles really listens to during the embassy scene.

Patroclus & Menelaus: this is one of those cases where I imagine them being friends and also boning LMAO but the fact that Menelaus fought so hard to keep Patroclus' body from the Trojans always makes me think that the two must have been quite close. I do actually think that they might have had a lot in common!

Also also this is pure headcanon territory but I'm really enjoying writing Patroclus' and Automedon's friendship in my fic As Fate Would Have It! I always imagined those two would spend plenty of time together, as Achilles' therapon and his trusted charioteer, so it's really fun to write them together now 😁

NOTPs

I honestly don't have many notps in general, I can’t think of a pairing that makes me so uncomfortable or something that I would never be able to consider it. But there are some that I just don't enjoy very much or that don't interest me.

Basically anything with Zeus is an instant no-no for me lmao I just don't like the dude at all 🤣 it's not even the non con aspect that features in pretty much EVERY pairing he's in, it's just... idk, the male entitlement of it all truly doesn't appeal to me. I don't want to know what he's up to and I'm not sure I'd read a story about any of his escapades (i.e. him chasing young girls and boys around and ruining their lives for fun 🙄)

Helen/ Paris: this is another pairing I can't see in a favourable light. I feel like it's pretty clear in the Iliad that Helen doesn't really like him and is miserable in Troy, and when she is shown to go to bed with him it's because Aphrodite threatens her and twists her arm to do it. I believe that there are interesting layers to their relationship and that there's a lot to consider here, but I probably wouldn't seek out any cutesy shippy content with those two. (But if we're talking about a Paris/Helen/Menelaus... now that's a different story 👀 haha)

Thank you so much for this ask!

[babyrdie]

Achilles stan are really hypocritical about Alexander now, did you see that?

No, I didn't see it.

I saw people mentioning something about Achilles and Paris, now there's this ask and I'm starting to wonder if the recent ask an anon sent me about Paris was a discreet way to test me (this one, where I explicitly say that I really don't care about Paris discourse). I honestly don't know where the hell this weekly Achilles vs Paris debate came from, so I'm really confused. It's a Tumblr debate and I just didn't see the original post? Is it an debate imported from another website? I don't know. But other than Apollo and Paris killing Achilles, I don't really see what relevant connection these characters have to each other. They also don't even have the same role or the same archetypes, which once again leaves me wondering why this comparison even exists in the first place.

But here we go: my opinion is that no one is a saint. In most of these X vs Y discussions, I'm simply going to consider both characters as not being people who would be considered good today. And it's the same case here.

Achilles killed Tenes despite being warned not to do so (he was warned by Thetis, so he certainly knew she was serious), sacked cities (including not all of them were Trojans), enslaved people (both men and women. Some were sold, others remained. Some were sexual slaves, like Briseis and Diomede), committed a murder inside a temple (Troilus), dishonored a body (Hector), practiced human sacrifice (Patroclus' funeral. And you can see from the narration that it's not a case of "ah, but human sacrifice was cultural and accepted") and stopped the winds just to demand Polyxena's sacrifice (I still wonder how the hell he stopped the wind). He isn't a saint.

Paris ignored Oenone's prophecies about the fall of Troy and abandoned her (she was his first wife. And unlike Cassandra, she wasn't cursed. He didn't listen because he didn't want to), stole Menelaus (I'm not even talking about Helen. He took Menelaus' treasure too. Honestly, at that point Paris knew he was bringing war to Troy and didn't care if he felt so comfortable that he even took the treasure), depending on the version kidnapped Helen, taken city (Sidon), killed a guy because he was jealous of him with Helen (Corythus. Who is his son, by the way) and he ignored the Trojans' requests and continued the war. He was a prince, so I guarantee you he had slaves too, and slaves are indeed mentioned in Trojan territory (e.g. Lycophron writes from the point of view of a slave watching over Cassandra). He isn't a saint.

Yeah, Achilles isn't just a cute guy in love and suffering for his boyfriend, but Paris is also not just a cute and harmless little thing. People paint Paris too much as harmless useless. So my honest opinion is that this discussion is a waste of time because neither of them is the pinnacle of morality. It's reminding me of the Achilles vs Odysseus debates, which were equally pointless because Odysseus, like Achilles and Paris, is also not an immaculate crystal. The Clytemnestra vs. Agamemnon debates were also another pointless thing because sometimes they even cited something they both did but only against one (e.g., Clytemnestra ridiculing Cassandra's status as a Trojan captive in "Agamemnon" and Agamemnon doing the same to Hesione via Teucer in "Ajax"). At this point, I think it would be interesting to read Greek mythology without trying to do morality rankings. I also already talked about this in this post.

So that's it, that's my opinion. I haven't ignored any asks I've received so far, but if I receive one more ask about fans and haters of characters and morality in Greek mythology I'll probably ignore it because I think my opinion is already pretty clear (It's even in my post about my blog). I also talked about this in the Hades Odysseus controversy.

[wayward-wren]

"A cruel folk you are, unmatched for jealousy, you gods who cannot bear to let a goddess sleep with a man, even if it is done without concealment and she has chosen him as her lawful consort. You were the same when Rose-fingered Dawn fell in love with Orion. Easy livers yourselves, you were outraged at her conduct and in the end chaste Artemis rose from her golden throne, attacked him in Ortygia with her gentle darts and left him dead. And so again, when the lovely Demeter gave way to her passion and lay in the arms of her beloved Iasion in the thrice-plowed fallow field, Zeus heard of it quickly enough and struck him dead with his blinding thunderbolt. And now it is my turn to incur that same divine displeasure for living with a mortal man--a man whom I rescued from death... I welcomed him with open arms; I tended him; I even hoped to give him immortality and ageless youth. But now, goodbye to him, since no god can evade or thwart the will of Zeus."

Calypso said let women sexually assault people as well 😔*

The Odyssey, E. R. Rieu translation. Book V Calypso

*disclaimer, I actually love her calling out the gods hypocrisy and double standards and I find it a facinating speech to be included in the Odyssey and I would LOVE to know the political landscape at the time of Homer's writing to know the context of this and how it would have been received. There's definitely evidence in the text that shows the tension of extra-marital affairs and that they weren't as simple as 'men can do what they want cos women don't matter.' I.e. Laertes not sleeping with Eurycleia out of respect for his wife vs Menelaus having a son with a slave girl because Helen couldn't have more children.

[menelaiad]

you've probably already said, but I can't seem to find it: what is your thesis about?

i'm basically saying that the reason menelaus is portrayed so badly (extremely weak and pathetic or a downright abuser) in reception pieces is because of athens. because the athenian tragedians portrayed him that way, and i suppose that's somewhat understandable to use them as a source material cause there is MORE. but actually the menelaus from homer is nothing like the athenian one.

also that homeric menelaus isnt that bad?? the athenians just hated homeric menelaus because he was seen as weak and worth mocking BUT they had differing views on women and masculinity. the sparta that we get in classical greece is NOTHING like the homeric sparta. but classical athens didnt see that. also spartan women were very .... almost independent. so they see helen that way. but athenians didnt like women being like that. so they basically said 'well if your woman is that outspoken and strongwilled. you're a bitch' so they really hyped up menelaus' .......... uselessness. they even made him fail were spartans should succeed. like in laconic speech and warrior spirit - just to add comedy and to really hammer home how shit he was. BECAUSE he is one of the most famous spartan mythological men. and some spartan kings/leaders claimed to be descended from him, so it was their way of being all 'this is your ancestor??? this epitome of spartan-ness?? you come from this?? he cant even live up to your backwards way of life. how pathetic'

there is actually a quote from aristotle that basically says 'we should rewrite the epics, cause they're pretty good but get rid of all the crying' because the classical world didnt view crying the same as homer did. like. menelaus is made out to be pathetic in Helen by Euripides because he is sad. he's sad and lost and alone. yet in the odyssey he and odysseus weep openly and no comment is ever made on that.

so once you get that athenian bias out your mind (and it IS a bias. they're not gonna write a nice spartan character. they'd have never worked again. they were at WAR. they viewed the world enTIRELY DIFFERENTLY) menelaus is ................. good. a modern audience can and should appreciate who he actually is.

but then there's also the whole. menelaus doesnt fit the homeric mould either. not really. idk man menelaus is endlessly beautiful and fascinating and i like him. a lot.

[dootznbootz]

I'm not very fond of Epic AUs where Odysseus adopts Astyanax.

It's fine for a one-off joke or comic and ofc this is just my opinion but... if Astyanax lives (like in Racine's play), he should always stay with Andromache. His actual mother, yk. Not with one of the men who sacked Troy. Zeus' prophecy is bound to happen and Odysseus knew keeping the infant around was a bad idea.

If Astyanax dies, I want to see him in Elysium with his father, finally in a peaceful place and having all of eternity to catch up. Then Andromache joins them (sending her to Asphodel would be too cruel) and they finally reunite.

Would anyone picture Neoptolemus adopting Astyanax ? The son of Achilles, who dragged Hector's body in a chariot. No ? So Achilles' associate doing the same would be weird.

And Odysseus ? I want him CRAVING for a son, waiting for so long until he can express his paternal affection (and always cursing Palamedes even after his revenge 😂).

Him meeting Telemachus all grown up should be his first real shot at fatherhood. It'd be underwhelming if he already had a little boy with him. If Telemachus has a little brother, Penelope should be the mother. Or they adopt another baby together afterwards. No Astyanax and ESPECIALLY NO TELEGONUS !

So yeah, imo Astyanax and Odysseus don't belong with each other. Any thought ?

Headsup: This is just an opinion. My opinion does not matter. If you like this AU, PLEASE don't let that stop you from creating! Just because it's not for me, doesn't mean it's not for you or for someone else :D

I absolutely agree and you absolutely put into words WHY.

There's the term "woobifying" and in some cases...I think that's what people just often do with Epic/The Odyssey. (especially from Epic) I'm saying as someone who is a very soft and fluffy person. I love soft and sweet fics and ideas. I love stuff that makes me smile. But I almost feel as though with certain soft things, you're taking away what makes characters who they are. which DOESN'T make me smile lol

like I think there's more fun in simply a "no-war AU" than the "Astyanax lives AU" xD like, that way, Odysseus is with his family, gets to be a dad, Astyanax gets to live (let's not think too hard about how "no war may have meant no Astayanax")

As that way, they still get to be in character as well.

Penelope and Odysseus for example, are scallywags lol. They scheme and swindle. They giggle and kick their feet when they get extra cattle. They hold grudges. They can be snooty and prideful. They're as full of love as they are full of hate. Odysseus, during the Sack of Troy, in both the Odyssey AND Epic, will do whatever it takes to get home. Like yes, in Epic, Jay has it where Odysseus has to "become ruthless" but I can understand what he's doing with the narrative. Odyssey Odysseus? Um...Iphigenia is proof that Odysseus is already ruthless.

Btw, why is Astyanax the only one Odysseus would want to save with these AUs? What about Iphigenia? Is it because of Epic?

Yes, I DO think Odysseus (and Penelope for that matter) have a lot of parental instinct. I plan to write Odysseus carving lil wooden toys for random kids just as something to do. He does tricks. (ngl, while it seems they weren't around in the Mycenaean era, Yo-yos were a thing in ancient Greece. I just KNOW Odysseus would be the type to do so many tricks. (also string and wood🥹)) He has a soft spot for Greater Ajax's boy. My goober was friends with Menelaus and Agamemnon even before he met Penelope (he saw two exiled guys take back their kingdom and thought "hm??? vulnerable state??? They're very rich?? hehe >:3" but then became fond of them. The reason why he went to Sparta was to help Menelaus with Helen but fell in love himself.) and he's carved lil toys for Agamemnon's kids

He's carved lil Iphigenia toys. She likes Dolphins. He still helps sabotage the letter in some myths and even hypes up the crowd.

Even if it IS just based on Epic, "The Horse and The Infant" and "Just a Man" are HUGE turning points for Odysseus. Or even just a show of character. Like yes, "Odysseus is learning ruthlessness" but he already is ruthless. He literally says "I would trade the world to see my son and wife". AND HE STILL DOES THE DEED! HE WAS RUTHLESS SINCE THE BEGINNING! The Second song in the Musical and it already tells you about Odysseus and what he is willing to do. Is he sad and haunted? Yeah. Still did it.

And I really love that as that's Odyssey Odysseus as well! Odysseus isn't an unfeeling violent villain. He's just a man.

Also...What happens in the Odyssey is no fucking place for a child. ;~; The cyclops, the Goddesses, the monsters? Why should a lil boy be anywhere near that? How did he survive while drifting to Ogygia? Does Poseidon try to keep them together? As no one would be in the state to take care of each other together for that many days.

And in general, in the Odyssey, to me, it's such a huge thing that he literally lost EVERYONE. THAT HE IS ALL ALONE. All of the people who were with him are now dead, and there was nothing he could do. It was already fated.

It's horrible but there's something so poetic in him being the "Sole Survivor", especially after all the hell he went through.

Also yeah, I DO really hate the thought of Telemachus knowing "You took care of this baby when I needed you?". Like my OdyPen have a daughter after he returns as the whole "only one son" and that's already really hard for Telemachus to watch Odysseus be a father for her, regardless of how often and how adamantly Odysseus reassures him that Odysseus desperately wished to do the same with him.

[thegodcyclecomic]

Hello again! Thank you for your post that covered my question on what sources of inspiration you used for Athena. It was super enlightening!

I know this is a tall order because the myths are broad, but could you discuss what aspects of characterization and dimensions you feel are often ignored about Athena? This is me practically begging for a meta post, but I genuinely love hearing your thoughts on her because I agree with your assessment that roughly most media tend to lean to simplistic aspects of Athena. I like hearing from your inspiration notes that you thought of Athena’s childhood with Pallas and how she is more of a pragmatic character that has agency.

I have a lot of thoughts on this so this post won't be as comprehensive as I originally intended, I will be briefly covering the points I want to list out. I try my best to base my writing of Athena on the canon source material, but there will be aspects that veer into my own interpretation/headcanon territory. All Iliad passages here are from the Robert Fitzgerald translation.

Anyway, here are the aspects of characterization I think are normally ignored when authors write Athena.

Her calculating nature / intelligence

This one sounds weird because it's paradoxically the first thing that comes to mind when writing Athena. The issue with this is the same issue when amateur authors try to write characters who are smarter than them: They resort to cheap shortcuts and stereotypes to show a character is "smart".

Examples of this would be the overusage of chess imagery. It's a game that wouldn't exist in Ancient Greece anyway, and it's a measure of spatial memorization rather than strategy. In real warfare, everything is variable to change. Chess pieces don't have motivations or biases that could influence their actions. Opening moves in chess have their counters, but real-life tactics allow you more freedom on how to engage with it.

The next writing shortcut people resort to re: Athena's intelligence is how they use her reading books to show she is "smart" but don't really elaborate on what kind of books she reads of what topics she specializes in which is already in the mythos that can give you lots of ideas.

I mentioned this before but when I started TGC I had a hard time characterizing Athena at first because I didn't understand her domains too well. So you know what I did? I picked up books about military history, Ancient Greek laws, political theory, philosophy, and similar. Learning about these things gave me a perspective of "how would the personification of the state act if they were a person?". Ancient Greece was big on the Social Contract, as exemplified in Socrates's speech in Plato's Apology.

There's a lot more to it, I'm not doing it justice at all in this post. But that's the idea. In the Oresteia, Athena created the practice of cross-examination for murder trials, and then immediately proceeded to undermine the entire justice process by attempting to bribe the prosecution (the Furies). In the Iliad Book 4, she disguises herself as a Trojan soldier to trick Laodokos to shoot Menelaus to break the ceasefire-- essentially enacting what we in modern day would call a False Flag Operation. It's so quintessentially Politician(tm) of her to do.

Athena's intelligence comes from how she seeks to improve and make efficient current systems, like her strategy to Ares's warfare. Or her various inventions in mythos. Another one would be her ability to manipulate people and situations to push for the outcomes she wants. You can see this in her various dialogues in the Epic Cycle:

Athena grifting in the Odyssey in a speech she makes to Zeus about why she should be allowed to assist Odysseus.

520: Athena kept the pace behind them, bearing her shield of storm, immortal and august, whose hundred golden-plaited tassles, worth a hekatomb each one, floated in air. So down the ranks that dazzling goddess went to stir the attack, and each man in his heart grew strong to fight and never quit the melee, for at her passage war itself became lovelier than return, lovelier than sailing in the decked ships to their own native land -Iliad Book 4

and this

100: “Son of Lykaon, I have in mind an exploit that may tempt you, tempt a fighting heart. Have you the gall to send an arrow like a fork of lightning home against Menelaus? Every Trojan heart would rise, and every man would praise you, especially Paris, the prince— you would be sure to come by glittering gifts if he could see the warrior, Menelaus, the son of Atreus, brought down by your bow, then bedded on a dolorous pyre! Come now, brace yourself for a shot at Menelaus. engage to pay Apollo, the bright archer, a perfect hekatomb of firstling lambs when you go home to your old town, Zeleia.” That was Athena’s way, leading him on, the foolish man, to folly. -Iliad Book 4

from what I can understand, Athena's domain of wisdom is not just limited to giving insight to people-- but also in obscuring the truth and leading others to their ruin. Which is in line with one of Athena's epithets which is Απατουρια (Apaturia) "Deciever".

Often times in other adaptations, they relegate Athena's intelligence to spouting random facts or a "nerdy" personality. Or they nerf it so that she doesn't solve these braindead plots in 2 seconds. Take Athena from Lore Olympus for example, the Athena of canon would've never allowed any of this shit with Persephone and Apollo undermining Zeus to happen TT_TT if you have to make your characters stupid for the story to work, then it is a bad story hands down.

2. Interpretations regarding Athena's relationship with heroes

This is something I see a lot where Athena is written to have a personal investment in her heroes like they are "her blorbos" (actual words I've seen people on this hellsite use for this). I'd like to direct your attention to this passage from of Athena speaking in Iliad book 8.

My father, now, is full of a black madness, evil and perverse. All that I strive for he brings to nothing: He will not remember how many times I intervened to save his son, worn out in trials set by Eurystheus. How Heracles would cry to heaven! And Zeus Would send me out of heaven to be his shield. Had I forseen this day that time he went down, bidden by Eurystheus, between Death’s narrow gates to bring from Erebos the watchdog of the Lord of Undergloom, he never would have left the gorge of Styx!

The way I understand this passage is that Athena does a lot of "NPC questgiver" tasks for Zeus in an attempt to curry favor from him. It's a calculated choice on her part and not something she does out of the kindness of her heart. A similar situation occurs when Orestes asks Athena for aid, she helps him on the insistence of Apollo.

Regarding Odysseus, I'm sure there is some fondness she has for him-- but that doesn't stop her from allowing him to be struck by storm (as collateral damage for the crimes of Ajax the lesser for raping Cassandra in Athena's temple). Or from her setting up the suitor problem so she could convince him to murder them all.

If you've noticed, all of Athena's champions are some kind of high-ranking warriors. A king or general or prince. You would think that the goddess of wisdom would favor the philosophers more, or would choose more often to avoid violence. But Athena is very quick to choose violence, it's who she is. And she needs a tool that she can use as a blade.

(these are my interpretations, if you disagree thats fine) 3. Athena as a "peaceful" goddess

This one makes me laugh and also drives me insane.

There are two Homeric hymns that directly and clearly contradict this idea.

(HOMERIC HYMNS 5 - 33, TRANSLATED BY H. G. EVELYN-WHITE) a. The Homeric Hymn to Athena

Of Pallas Athene, guardian of the city, I begin to sing. Dread is she, and with Ares she loves deeds of war, the sack of cities and the shouting and the battle. It is she who saves the people as they go out to war and come back. Hail, goddess, and give us good fortune with happiness!

b. The Homeric Hymn to Aphrodite

...Yet there are three hearts that she cannot bend nor yet ensnare. First is the daughter of Zeus who holds the aegis, bright-eyed Athene; for she has no pleasure in the deeds of golden Aphrodite, but delights in wars and in the work of Ares, in strifes and battles and in preparing famous crafts. 

What I find insightful about the second one is that it gives a specific reason for why Athena cannot be moved by romantic love. It's because war occupies the space in her heart that love would normally be. Both hymns specifically name drop Ares, so the idea that Athena finds Ares's violence to be repulsive is just blatantly untrue. If anything, she adores it. The time it would become an issue for her is when his rampages act against her greater interests, which is the source of all their duels in canon.

Other proof for Athena being generally violent can be inferred from her characterization in the Iliad, the instances of which are too numerous to list here.

4. Athena's personality defined by her lack of childhood.

I mentioned this in another post, but Athena was born from Zeus as an adult (though in TGC I changed this to being born as a pre-teen. This is intentional and serves a purpose). What we know about psychology today is that for normal social and emotional development, young children need to form an attachment with at least one primary caregiver. Athena being born as an adult means that she would've missed out on important development milestones that other gods would've gone through.

I will preemptively say that before you bring up the "theyre Gods they're not like humans" that as far as mythos is concerned, the way that gods behave and think is almost exactly identical to that of humans. They experience the same range of emotions humans do, as well as grief and trauma. So I will consider that their psychology is also the same with the difference being that they might experience mental degradation not typically seen in humans because of cumulative negative experiences over a long period.

Back to Athena, the only framework she would have to start from literally being born yesterday would be the fragments of memories she gleaned from being inside of Zeus's head. I think this would be confusing for her, as these are from the first-person perspective of Zeus, so using his memories but lacking context for those experiences might lead to an early identity crisis. Athena would then have to play catchup in learning extremely fast everything to fill those blanks.

This is why I think Athena has a hard time forming personal connections. She doesn't have a true equal. Athena's relationships are defined by power imbalances and transactions, and that is how she understands relationships in general to work.

5. Athena's humanity.

I think what bothers me the most about Athena in adaptations is the lack of humanity given to her character. I know I just went over why she's a manipulative machiavellian character, but what I see is that Athena often gets relegated to the Unfun Stick in the Mud character. She exists to ruin the fun of the Fun Chaotic Dudes Dionysus, Hermes, and Apollo. She doesn't have anything going to her except being a snitch and a daddy's girl, or worse, she exists to be "put in her place" by other male gods. This is why I really dislike Fedini's and "incorrect greek gods" take on Athena. I think there's this underlying biases that an ace-coded goddess can't have anything interesting about her, because all media on tumblr and fandom these days are broken down to fucking shipping instead of seriously engaging with the source material. I've seen people call her a Mary Sue or act like she is an annoying bitch for exhibiting personality traits that would be praised in a male character (the traits of a Byronic Hero).

Portrayals of Athena go one extreme or another, either she is a wholly Good goddess or she is a Villain/mere annoyance. It's a real shame to see, because I hope I can show you now that she is a wonderfully complex and morally grey character. I want to see Athena's curiosity and how she tries to understand the world from her own perspective. I want to explore her relationships with Zeus and her siblings like Ares and Apollo outside of the Meme'fication of Greek mythology.

Anyway, that's all I can think of for now, I hope this answers your question. If you have any point you'd like me to explain more, I'd be glad to make another post in greater detail.

[ilions-end]

alright, some finishing (?) thoughts on euripides' helen!

i hate how cheap a write-around "oh helen NEVER went with paris, that was a copy made of clouds actually" is, so it's REALLY FRUSTRATING how much i enjoyed this play! helen is so smart and gets so much agency! she figures it all out, she tricks the pharaoh, she saves menelaus and herself... why did it have to be fun!!

i'm really not familiar with the tragicomedy genre. half the scenes i was anxiously wondering wether something silly or horrible was about to happen. just like real life i guess

there's a really clean character arch starting from menelaus being SO horrified at being seen with torn clothes or having to beg, and then helen's plan being all about humbling themselves to escape to greece: menelaus pretending to be a lowly sailor, helen hacking off her hair and disfiguring her face (the way odysseus disfigured himself when they met...?).

i still had to laugh at helen's first reaction of "oh my gods, don't tell me you BEGGED for food?? like a low-born person?" and menelaus being all "...i begged 🥺". SO ashamed.

excellent ambiguity when helen asks teucer about what happened to her brothers, and he tells her he's heard two different rumours -- that zeus made them into minor gods, or that they committed suicide out of shame for their sister. he doesn't know which is true, which makes so much sense! and also makes for my FAVOURITE deus ex machina in a greek play so far

why did hera wait seven more years to dissolve cloud-helen anyway? VERY decent of her to have the cloud explain the whole scheme as it dissolved, though

i kept thinking about poor hermione. it's been seventeen years at that point since she's seen either of her parents.

helen and menelaus' reunion was so delightfully awkward. menelaus anxiously going "Hands off, I'm in enough trouble already!" like LADY, NO SEX RIGHT NOW PLEASE

what happened to teucer! where is my boy

so helen definitely never had sex with paris in this version. possibly she never even met him at all. but i make the case she HAS imagined what it'd be like, some lonely nights, based on her description:

oh no not the strong-limbed young sexy barbarian..............

[hermesmoly]

I just realized that Kaos tried so hard to turn Orpheus and Eurydice into Helen and Menelaus.

That reminds me of how ppl also try to write Hephaestus and Aphrodite as Helen and Menelaus.

(Again, is true love really a boring plot line nowadays? Man, Let Eurydice like her husband.)

Yeah the uh. “Sacrificing Loyal Boyfriend /Evil Cheating Girlfriend Who Doesn’t Deserve it” trope. Done to a couple who in the myths just really loved each other. Boo 👎👎👎

The thing is the premise was a bit promising at the start; Orpheus going to the Underworld for a Eurydice that has fallen out of love for him. While watching them I found myself asking questions like: Would you fight death itself for someone even if you knew they wouldn’t do the same for you? If they didn’t love you the way you love them? The answer being yes is essentially Menelaus’ drive, because to Menelaus, especially to Menelaus, Helen was worth fighting for. It’s why he (all heavily morally questionable aspects of it aside) wages war and all its consequences to get Helen back home. Love is a strong motivator, thorns and all. The only difference between Menelaus and Orpheus is Menelaus wielding a spear and a thousand men to prove it while Orpheus had only his lyre and his words as a great poet.

AND THE POINT, THE POINT of the Orpheus Eurydice myth is even if their love was doomed, even if he knew the ending, Orpheus would have still loved her, he still would have tried to traversed the Underworld for her, and he still would have looked back, because he loved her. Most accounts have Eurydice die shortly after their wedding— they never even had a chance to settle down, to have a family, to grow old together. The grief of that pain to be translated through song was enough to melt a King’s heart.

Eurydice in the myths was worth fighting for. Eurydice in the show however? Didn’t even seem to care about Orpheus at all. Like not even as a friend. The two episodes I’ve watched had Eurydice being so good at faking being in love Orpheus dedicates songs to her. Despite what we see that she never makes an actual effort for Orpheus. How do you sing your heart out for a woman who doesn’t even remember your favorite cereal? It’s just so laughably bad and written with no care.

As for Hephaestus/Aphrodite… I can see the temptation to make them Like That but it just isn’t comparable. Helen leaving Troy (either via force or willingness) leaving Menelaus and Hermione behind is too different from Hephaestus learning of Aphrodite's infidelity by lying to him about Eros’ (and seemingly Harmonia’s) parentage. Helen could have made an impulsive decision, could have agreed to it only to regret it or maybe she wasn’t given a choice, but it's leagues better than Aphrodite lying straight to Hephaestus’ face, even if she regrets it. Just let them divorce!!!

[littlesparklight]

Curious why do you ship Paris and Menelaus?

Quite a bit after I read the Iliad the first time (I came out of that not really shipping anything in particular; I was reading it more because of the connection of the Trojans to Ganymede), I saw that ask that first proposed the "Paris taking Menelaos instead of Helen" AU and got struck with a little bit of inspiration to write something short.

That, ahem, made me actually start thinking about the ship (and in particular about Paris, now here we are) and I lost my grip completely. :')

Paris spends nine days in Sparta, with Helen and Menelaos. He would in fact reasonably spend more time with Menelaos than Helen, but the point is - plenty of time for them to get to know each other (at least as much, if not more so, again, as for Paris and Helen). At the end of those nine days Menelaos feels comfortable just telling Helen to take care of their guest as he leaves for Crete. Yeah, that's a blend of "you don't make a guest leave before he's ready to" and undoubtedly trusting Helen - but presumably he also feels comfortable with Paris himself, to just take off that easily.

And then there is the variant tradition where Menelaos goes to Troy before Paris goes to Sparta, with that accidental killing of Antheus and Paris getting to go back with Menelaos to Sparta for exile/expiation. And while I wouldn't necessarily put them together, there's that additional trip to Delphi that Menelaos takes Paris with him on.

Like. There's just a lot of space for connection, and by all accounts it looks to me that Menelaos liked Paris.

The point of this is that the more personal the connection between them, the more the eventual betrayal of Paris leaving with Helen means. Them as friends or even lovers by the point it happens - good, that is a connection that will make the betrayal (even more) personal. It's not just about Helen, but the two of them. It's about Paris not just breaking xenia but whatever relationship has started to grow between them! That's just delightfully juicy, you know?

And then on top of that... the fact that neither of them are the epitome of masculinity as counted by the culture they live in (or rather, the story was written in). Paris more so than Menelaos/in different ways, but still, there's a similarity there that means you can have a connection and understanding/acceptance in. And that's interesting to dig into!

While I do think Paris could consider Menelaos attractive (even if he's not stunning or anything) there's plenty enough for him to end up liking that has nothing to do with physical looks.

And, aside from the fun of a full OT3, having the whole mess not just be about Menelaos > Helen < Paris, but the Paris and Menelaos leg also being connected (if separately from Helen) just makes everything more fun, interesting, and complicated lol.

Basically, the more I looked at them the more I shipped it. The duel itself is rife for sexual tension! And learning that there was some protests to the text variant that reads "ate" instead of "arche" in Menelaos' speech when he takes up the duel challenge, because the "ate" version was read as Menelaos vaguely excusing Paris...

Well, how can I not? No matter how angry Menelaos is, if it is indeed even a vague sort of excuse for Paris, even nine years in and having demanded "to the death" instead of Paris' "whoever loses", this practically writes itself.