#Telamonian Ajax

[ilions-end]

i love the part of sophocles' ajax where odysseus very carefully, very diplomatically debates agamemnon, trying to convince him that ajax deserves a proper burial

some of my favourite lines:

AGAMEMNON: Odysseus, are you for me or are you against me, and for this man? ODYSSEUS: I hated him when it was honourable to hate him.

!!

ODYSSEUS: He was my enemy, but he was also noble. AGAMEMNON: And you have respect for an enemy's corpse? ODYSSEUS: I am moved by admiration for his greatness, rather than by hatred for his smallness. AGAMEMNON: He was a man of many turns. ODYSSEUS: Many of our friends later become enemies. AGAMEMNON: But do you wish to praise these so-called friends? ODYSSEUS: I do not see friends and enemies as mutually exclusive.

and the finishing blow:

AGAMEMNON: I see now that every man works for himself. ODYSSEUS: Who else should a man work for?

[katerinaaqu]

Sorry I just couldn't resist!!! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Don't you tell me this wasn't perfect?! Hahaha like come on everyone thought of that! 😂 (inspiration from Paris The Musical song "Business" because I just heard that specific song for the lolz 😆)

[ditoob]

Was doing some research on Diomedes and found out Tydeus was a pupil of Athena, a favorite of hers to the point she offered him immortality. He was a man blessed by the gods and yet, his actions disgusted the gods himself. In battle, Tydeus ate the brains of his enemy. An act so barbaric and out of line that it lost him the blessing of Athena.

Why did that happen? How come Tydeus decided to take that barbaric action? The act most certainly did not represent Tydeus’ character (if it had why would Athena be surprised and shocked?). Could one blame the gods? Striking Tydeus with madness? Or was it simply a fatal flaw in the king? A rage so unnatural and overbearing that it took control of him completely — a flaw overlooked by the gray-eyed goddess. A mistake that she would not commit again.

Diomedes himself is typically characterized as short-tempered and prone to anger, although he has far more self control and respect than any of the other greek kings (except for Nestor I suppose). He was mentored and sculpted into the man he was in the Trojan war by Athena herself, aiding him at all times, blessing him more than she did even Odysseus. She felt she owed the family of Tydeus, most likely treating them much like she treated Odysseus’ family in the Odyssey.

She most certainly succeded in preparing Diomedes to be such a great warrior, Aeneas comments that he was second only to Achilles in the greek army (although typically it is Telamonian Ajax who is said to be the second strongest greek) and Diomedes is most certainly one of the highest-trusted greeks in the army (It is he who is entrusted with the espionage to Troy, and it is he who is tasked with choosing who will follow HIM). Diomedes also has armor made by Hephaestus himself! An honor only appointed to Achilles. He was beloved by the gods, most definitely, and talented in all parts of war — talent which certainly came from his experience taking Thebes to avenge his father.

Diomedes shows incredible restraint, care, and control in his time in the war. He perhaps represents exactly what a greek warrior should be. Not burdened by the suicidal rage of Achilles. Not hindered by the constant lies of Odysseus. Not tainted by the pride of Agamemnon. Perhaps that is why he went on to be worshipped as a divine being in parts of Greece.

[venomspecs]

Why is Ajax so underrated, I see so little talk about him. The big guy has a sick huge shield, he's the strongest and most handsome after Achilles (Homer's words not mine 😳) and his dynamic with Teucer is so so so interesting, especially in Sophocles' Ajax. We need more telamonian brothers appreciation.

[spineless-lobster]

Greater ajax killing himself because he couldn’t get achilles’ armour and then being petty enough to not talk to odysseus in the underworld that’s true hater behaviour and I support him fully

[baejax-art]

When your dumbass cousin is running his mouth again at the assembly and you just want to go back to your tent and eat dinner

[bcb-brian-camryn]

Odysseus: "Achilles-"

Achilles: "Patroklos used to call me Achilles" *sobs*

Ajax (The Greater): "Because that's your fucking name"

Achilles: *sobs harder*

[dionysism]

respect ajax the greater's grudge game. no i won't let it go, not even as you beg my wandering dead soul for forgiveness. in fact i'm not even going to grant you a response. eat shit

[baejax-the-great]

could you tell us more about the versions of ajax's death?

I would love to.

Ajax is an old, old myth that started out as part of an oral tradition, so it stands to reason that there were multiple versions of his death until the canonization of the epic cycle, but even then the story still evolved as various authors wrote their take on it.

I mentioned in a recent post that outside of Homer, Ajax was known to be invulnerable thanks to Heracles blessing him with the Nemean Lion skin. This makes killing him kind of tricky. Even in the Iliad, where Homer doesn't acknowledge the supernatural aspects of his heroes, Ajax is one of the few who doesn't sustain a single injury over the course of the story.

Like the myth of Achilles with the vulnerable heel, Ajax was said to have vulnerable areas. There was a version where he was the one shot in the heel with an arrow by Paris and he died from blood loss when the arrow was removed from his body back in camp, but more commonly he was vulnerable in his side or his throat (I am also very vulnerable to death when being stabbed in these areas). In most versions of his suicide depicted, he falls on his sword somewhere in his torso, so presumably he hits that specific vulnerable area in his side. I'm not sure if any of the suicides depicted have him piercing his own throat with his sword.

There was another pre-Homeric version of his death in which the Trojans killed him by throwing earth at him. I've chosen to interpret this as them attempting to bury him alive given that they cannot stab him to death. Interestingly, Ajax is the only Homeric hero whose dead body is interred rather than cremated, and a lot of theories have been proposed as to why. I think it was Sophocles who put it in his play that being interred was a punishment for his outrage against the other generals, but historians generally discount that interpretation. Interment was at no point considered a dishonorable way of dealing with a body, so it didn't make sense. Some historians hearken it back to other aspects of Ajax being anachronistic compared to his Iliad compatriots-- his shield, for example, is described in the older Mycenean style rather than getting the classical update contemporary with Homer's time like the rest of them. Most recently I read a theory that his interment might have been a nod to this history of invulnerability and the belief that covering an invulnerable person in dirt was the only way to kill them. Basically you give the person a direct route to the Underworld by sticking them... under the world.

Okay, but eventually everyone settled on the version of Ajax's death where he commits suicide. This version underwent substantial evolution over time. The oldest version (so far as I've seen as I wander my way through history books) goes like this: Agamemnon doesn't know what to do with the Arms of Achilles. He's afraid if he gives them to Ajax, the new Greatest of the Greeks, that the other men will lose their shit and start rioting (some may interpret this as a reflection of his piss poor leadership abilities). So, instead of making the call himself, he decides to let Trojans settle the matter. There are two version of this, one in which they ask their Trojan hostages to decide who is the better warrior, Ajax or Odysseus, and one in which they eavesdrop on some Trojan women talking about the warriors.

In both of these versions, Athena intervenes to make sure they declare Odysseus the victor. Two points here-- one is that in this oldest version of the story, Odysseus doesn't do anything to win. There's no trickery on his part. He's just there, and Athena picks him. The second point is that one of the key aspects of Ajax's character throughout all of his stories is that Athena fucking hates him. The feeling is kind of mutual. I could write a whole new post about this, but Odysseus doesn't factor into her decision necessarily--she's not favoring Odysseus, she's fucking over Ajax, who she hates.

After the decision, Ajax goes mad (more on this later), possibly kills some animals, and kills himself with Hector's sword.

It is only much later that we get versions where there is some sort of contest of words going on and complicity of Odysseus with Athena's scheme. This evolves more and more over time until it becomes "Ajax is an idiot who can't string two words together and Odysseus is a wordsmith." Whatever. Ovid's version is pretty hilarious with Ajax killing himself in front of everyone while bellowing something along the lines of "Try winning the war without me, dipshits."

The madness that Ajax suffers also changes over time. In the beginning, it's kind of vague. He goes mad. This could mean he got really super angry. It could also mean... he was put into a headspace where killing himself seemed like a reasonable response. Most people accept that state as a form of madness. It's only later that his madness is attributed to Athena--she made him mad rather than it being a natural consequence of his accomplishments going unacknowledged after ten years of war and also watching his friends die and lugging their corpses around etc etc. This also gets to the animals he slaughtered--in some version, he just does it. Because he's mad. In some versions, it's suggested he kills them because he won them for the Greeks, and if the Greeks don't appreciate him, by god they are not going to get to enjoy the spoils of his labor. Sorry, sheep. And in Sophocles' late version, Athena's madness causes him to imagine the cows are various Greek generals (Agamemnon and Odysseus and others) and he tortures them thinking he's torturing the generals. When he realizes what he's done, he kills himself.

What's interesting to me is that the evolution of Ajax's suicide seems to simplify his motives for doing so and make him a less compelling character. Well, he was driven mad by a goddess. And he wasn't very bright to begin with. And he killed himself to deny the Greeks his service (as if he couldn't have just gone the fuck home with all his cows).

The original suicide story as I understand it is a man who has proved himself ten times over, who everyone knows is the greatest among them, and who still gets passed over and disrespected by his fellow soldiers who all know the truth. There is nothing Ajax can do that will get other people to recognize him, and when he realizes this, that he will never accomplish his goals, this drives him "mad." He loses his purpose for living, and he dies.

[sunrise94]

ajax & teucer battle mode appreciation post

[ilions-end]

i'm haunted by the detail that big ajax uses hector's sword to kill himself. after their duel in book 7 hector and ajax trade the sword and a belt, respectively, in friendship but the cycle of violence goes inevitably on, revenge is enacted from beyond the grave, and hector gets one last kill even after he and achilles are both dead.

it fucks me up even more in the versions where hector is tied to achilles' chariot using ajax' belt. not to mention the possibility of myth variations where the chariot-dragging IS the method of execution, and not something done to hector post-mortem, which would make ajax directly complicit in hector's death.

it's a spiral of dominoes: hector kills achilles' closest companion which makes achilles kill hector which makes hector's brother kill achilles which makes achilles' friend kill himself with hector's weapon. doesn't thinking about it make you crazy!

[katerinaaqu]

Like when we talk on duos in Trojan War when fighting we talk about Diomedes and Odysseus or Menelaus and such but I also wanna give the honorable mention to the brothers;

Aias/Ajax and Teucer!

These two have the ultimate tank combo with Aias holding the huge shield and Teucer coming from behind it shooting arrows while Aias was clearing the path with his spear! These two are a freaking moving tank! We need more of them!

[ditoob]

Telamonian Ajax and Odysseus height comparison:

[valiantvillain]

Finished reading Sophocles' Ajax last night and let me tell you Teucer fucking impressed me. Man had no fucks left to give and dragged Agamemnon's ass right there. He dropped some great arguments and great lines. Favorite character of the play.

Also I now really want to look at it in the original Greek because I'm very curious to see what words exactly they are using to refer to Tecmessa. John Moore's translation consistently refers to her as his wife and Ajax even refers to her as his wife but also she's a captive, a war prize and we don't really see that happen with other women like Briseis in the Iliad so does that mean Tecmessa after being captured was somehow made his wife? Would that even be allowed? Is it because Ajax had no wife waiting for him at home that he can marry his war prize? I'm not complaining or anything I am just left with so many questions about this character. Especially when so much attention is given to the fact that Teucer is the son of a slave woman but no such attention is brought to Eurysaces, Ajax's son by Tecmessa.

It's just very fascinating and I will probably be plumbing the depths of jstor with my questions. Though if anyone has recs for articles or books discussing these kinda things please let me know.

[baejax-art]

Just a dude hanging out in his tent with his sweet ass sword he won off a Trojan horselord

[bcb-brian-camryn]

Do you think that after Telamonian Ajax's death Lokrian Ajax became "Ajax the greater by default" or did the Achaeans keep referring to him as Ajax the lesser just cause?