#Totk discourse

[werewolf-cuddles]

people are really weird about sidlink, they gave sidon like a girlfriend or something i think in the new game and now people are on here calling nintendo homophobic and they did it as a reaction to sidlink shippers. I dont mind sidlink but like the shippers are weird.

I will be very blunt here.

The people who unironically think Yona was introduced because Nintendo are homophobic and hate Sidlink shippers need to go outside and touch grass.

Nintendo do not give a shit about you or your ship. Never have done, never will.

They're far too busy going after modders and fan-game developers to care about your non-canon ship.

[just-antithings]

In a group where ppl are cool with rauru x link but not rauru x zelda and it felt like a massive double standard based on gender but it turns out their problem is because zelda is (very distantly) related to rauru.

But that's dumb logic imo since that's the argument people use to call zelink "incest" post skyward sword. People who are in-between anti and proship frustrate me so much because the hypocrisy is off the charts.

IT'S BEEN THOUSANDS OF YEARS SINCE HE FUCKED THE HYLIAN THAT'S HER ANCESTOR HELLO????? A;SLGKJAS;DLGKJA

Speaking of, Sonia can get it-

[faroreswinds]

I have a lot to say about the Totk story, and how it fails, but there was one particular thing I felt the need to note that only occurred to me while I sat in my warm tub, contemplating my sad existence in this world.

It occurred to me that Zelda, a person from the future with knowledge of said future, does not try to attempt to find the hero or the master sword of Rauru’s era.

And while that might seem like a minor thing, I don’t think it is.

In Zelda lore, we have a few other instances where a hero does not show up, but it is not for a lack of trying. In the case of LttP, for instance, the people sought the Master Sword, a powerful weapon said to be the bane of evil, in order to defeat Ganon and his spreading evil. But they could not find the Master Sword, no matter how hard they looked. And eventually, they ran out of time, and had to turn to the Knights of Hyrule and the Sages to complete the job. This ended up with the near total genocide of the Knights, and Ganon only being sealed away into the Dark World as a temporary measure. 

As for the Wind Waker, the people did basically nothing, because they had anticipated the Hero of Time to travel through time to their rescue. They relied on a hero who had rescued them before and therefore, through their negligence, failed to seek a hero of their era until it was far too late. By then, their only recourse was to pray to the gods to be saved from Ganondorf’s evil. Even after all of that, the King of Hyrule still sought the Hero of Time. It was only until he met WW Link that he realized that he could not rely on an ancient hero who was never going to show up. 

But what about the Imprisoning War in Totk? 

Zelda joins the ancient sages (who have no names or faces btw, I have no idea why they even bothered) and King Rauru in order to attempt to stop Ganondorf. But his power was too great, so Rauru sacrificed himself in a last ditch effort to seal Ganondorf for thousands of years, so that Link could defeat him in the far future.

At first, I didn’t really have any issue with this general set up. But as I thought about the other two No-Hero eras, I realized that Zelda really failed Rauru and his era. 

Zelda’s time is not one of complete ignorance. They have history and legends, recorded for thousands of years. It was common knowledge that the Princess sealed the darkness, and the Hero took up the Master Sword in an epic battle against evil. It was so known, in fact, that that was their entire plan against the Calamity. Find the Hero, awaken Zelda’s powers, and then defeat evil. 

And yet, when Zelda is forced into the past, it apparently does not occur to her to find the Hero of that era? If she remembered that the Master Sword could hurt Ganondorf, then surely she might think of seeking it in Rauru’s era? 

Rauru’s era seems to be one of ignorance. They do not seem to know about the Master Sword, or the concept of the Hero. So I don’t blame them for not looking for a Hero or the Master Sword. But Zelda DOES know. And yet, she never brings up the possibility of a hero of that time? Like, imagine if they looked for the MS and the Hero but failed to find both, and THEN resorted to their war? 

I am sure you could make all sorts of arguments as to why Zelda never bothers to mention the hero. Perhaps she didn’t know the Master Sword already existed in Rauru’s era. Perhaps she made all the connections too late. These are all technically valid, but do not excuse the writing of her character, which makes her seem kinda slow and pretty stupid.

She never makes the connection that Ganondorf is Calamity Ganon. She never considers that her actions in the past MIGHT change her future, perhaps even in drastic ways (she just decided she wanted to help the past, unsure if this would even affect her future). She and Sonia made a pretty foolish plan to confront Phantom Zelda, and then Zelda made no attempt to use her powers to rewind time to save Sonia. Zelda also never makes an attempt to use her sealing powers either, and while you can argue she lost her sealing powers at the end of BotW, this is also never brought up in Totk so it feels like a conversation is missing. 

It feels like at every turn, Zelda makes the worst decisions left and right, with her only decent decision in being to restore the Master Sword in a sacrificial mental suicide. But even that is full of oddities. 

How did she know that turning into a dragon would allow her Light powers to pour into the Master Sword? She is explicitly told that her Secret Stone amplifies her Time powers. As far as she knows, turning into a dragon will not enhance her Light powers in any way. 

Furthermore, how did she know that clutching the Master Sword during the transformation would allow it to be embedded in her body in such a way that Link could access it later? 

She took a HUGE gamble based on two facts: That the MS gains power as it absorbed sacred power, of which she possesses, and that eating a stone will make one a dragon forever. 

That’s it, that is all she knows. She knows nothing else, and yet jumped into this huge risk. As far as she knows, she could have dropped the MS during the transformation, and then her sacrifice would have been for naught. 

And it’s not like this is a knowledge Zelda. TP Zelda, for instance, is not a character who is fully explored, so any knowledge she possesses is fully believable. I don’t know what TP Zelda knows, so if she knows about the MS, then yeah, I believe that.

But BotW Zelda is explored more, and we know what she knows. And she does NOT know all the details about the dragonification process. She only knows eating a secret stone makes you a dragon. She got so unbelievably lucky in her guess that it borderlines insanity. 

This world and this Zelda was not designed for this story, and it shows in a big way. 

[sheikah-simp]

For me, the fact that basically all evidence of Sheikah culture was ripped from the map and then never addressed was one of the biggest slaps in the face of all. (Then there’s the light dragon and Zelda’s absolute powerlessness and incompetence when she’s shoved into the past and their AUDACITY to litter that final slap in the face memory with SILENT PRINCESS FLOWERS but that’s a whole other essay). Botw spent so much time worldbuilding the Sheikah so well, and seeing the towers and shrines come up out of the ground is a huge part of the game. Absolutely no remnants of that remain, no evidence of it even in the depths, and absolutely none of its absence is explained, even though the post credits Botw scene teases at it. What is a bit interesting to me in that regard is how the Sheikah on the surface are portrayed as mostly scared and incompetent when it comes to the ruins that fell on Kakariko (yeah there are research parties but the research parties.. dont make a whole lotta progress) meanwhile the Yiga, who we know are a broken off sect of the Sheikah who are actually probably closer in culture to the ancient Sheikah than the ones in Kakariko, are absolutely thriving and inventing cars and airplanes down there. That part is interesting, and it seems to be the only element of the Sheikah they’ve preserved, and it’s through the fucking Yiga Clan.

Meanwhile, every single Sheikah advancement has been replaced with the Zonai who I have little to no investment in because Botw didnt have enough to make me really know or care and what WAS there that interested me (the Ruins of Delphi, the Labyrinths, everything surrounding the Spring of Courage) felt like a missed opportunity. The Forgotten Temple thing was kind of cool yeah and there’s the Dragon Head Island quest but I didnt even know there was an event you were supposed to trigger to get there. And I know many other people who just pushed through that part of the game because they had no idea an event surrounding one of the key elements of the game (the Zonai) was even supposed to happen. I almost played through the entire game without unlocking Mineru until someone told me. And the fact there’s so many visual parallels between Mineru and Purah and Purah gets absolutely shafted from that role in favor of a robot that’s possessed by Mineru… come on. She was right there.

Totk felt like it couldn’t decide if it was a sequel or its own game. The nods to botw either seemed like slaps in the face or cheeky references, no meaningful textual conversation with the first game really exists. My friend has a theory that the higher ups later on in development came to them and said it had to be its own game, causing them to rip a lot from what they’d established. And that’s really what it feels like. It actually made me like the Zonai less than when I knew nothing about them. I could write another essay about how much the game actively made me hate Rauru. Like damn.

it might seem like im just a totk hater, and to be fair, i AM, but its not bc i think its bad in every way- if it was all bad, ok, then its all bad and we can forget it happened and can all accept that-

but totk specifically hit the jackpot of -things that frustrate me so much i cannot let go and need to talk about it-

its part of my current hyperfixation (or whatever is the right word), botw is one of my all time favorite games, and that one had so many mysteries i was DEEPLY invested in, its got great music and some absolutely fanatstic moments, some ideas are great to fine, but it doesnt make sense, i hate time travel like little else in games, it constantly contradicts itself, the franchise, even its previous game its supposed to be a sequel to, i felt like i was made fun of by the game itself, for caring so much about what they had set up or done in botw, the moment i saw what they did to the shrine of life i felt so devasted i could hear people pointing and laughing at me for having cared about it, the writing treating me like i am so brainless i cannot connect dot one and two when there are only two dots in front of me labeld 1 and 2 that it then tells me to connect directly, to my face, multiple times, before showing me how to draw a line, its full, so SO FULL of missed opportunities, its got choices in there that are just nothing but frustrating bc there were a hundred other ones, i can see what you could do wit hthe basic ideas, theres people that worship it to a point you cant say anything even mildly critical, even about objectively bad things (there is no excuse for that godawful arrow menu) bc they will jump at you like a rabid animal-

i could go on but you get the point, never in my life has anything hit me like that

[veggiecorner]

Food for thought but what if the house in Hateno was just Zeldas at first? Link wanted to give Zelda a place to stay where she can rest without being reminded of her duty every 5 seconds (which was why staying in Kakariko didn't work) and he knew he's not the type to sit around and rest. He does want to stay by Zelda's side however, but also felt awkward about living with her. So he does this thing where he just checks in with her every few weeks/months but travels around doing tasks for the people. Whenever Zelda wants to travel he's immediately by her side, but once she's back in Hateno he's just "...okay see you later......" and leaves. Zelda wants to tell him to stay a bit longer, but is too uncertain to break that boundary between them. Also she doesn't really want him to feel like he has to stay by her side. She wants him to have his freedom.

But suddenly him being gone for 2 months becomes 6 weeks...then it becomes 1 month...then 2 weeks....then a week...and one day he walks up to Zelda and just says "...can I stay over for the night?"

And so the house in Hateno starts to feel a little less lonely from then on.

[master-kohga-dating-sim]

okay im stuck between a rock and a hard place right now because i REALLY dont wanna be that asshole who calls people's ships "problematic" (I ship Master Kohga and Sooga so ive gotten plenty of that), so if you are both critical of Hyrule Kingdom and ship Zelgan, PLEASE tell me why and what you see in it

as of right now i have the tag blocked because i just cannot fucking stand seeing the ship, it reminds me of Pocahontas in terms of the dynamic because Zelda is the princess of an imperialist nation who tried to annex Ganondorf's fucking land??? it just seems to me like this ship is heavily based in racist tropes and by myself i absolutely cannot understand why anyone who is critical of the kingdom would ship a man of color with the people who tried to colonize his land

so again PLEASE tell me, i really really don't wanna be a fucking asshole so i wanna hear your guys' side. if im gonna make a decision i wanna make sure i have the full context of everything

(note: dont get me wrong, i hate any ship pairing ganondorf with anyone from the kingdom. zelgan is just the most prevalent because 1- characters like rauru and sonia are exclusive to totk and 2- ive seen ganlink done in a way that acknowledges all this and addresses it in one way or another which is more than i can say for literally all of the zelgan stuff ive seen)

[nokillbananashelter]

Why You Should Consider Link Being a Silent Protagonist:

Silent Protagonist ≠ always no dialogue

Silent protagonist does = minimal dialogue, grunts, sparse moments of communication, or no dialogue at all. It’s a spectrum.

Mute people are relatable beings you can empathize with

Quiet people are relatable beings you can empathize with

Link is narratively described as quiet and has story reasons for being reserved in the 2 latest iterations of Mainline Zelda and its part of his character development that he opens up and DOES speak more. It’s literally acknowledged in the most popular zelda title (BOTW).

Let me reiterate- its part of his character to say very little or to have story reasons for not speaking up at first!

Link is silent in EOW for Plot Reasons, pointing to this being a possibility continual in plot recognition

Link is pointed to as THE example of silent protagonist outside of like, Gordon Freeman. Nintendo literally is acknowledging that in its most recent and popular zeldas.

The movie will draw a lot of inspiration from BOTW and TOTK and you would be in denial if you thought elsewise

Childrens cartoons, blockbuster action movies, art house films, comics, games, and more have characters who chirp their name more than speak or barely speak at all

Some of the most Lucrative characters in media fall into this category and some would argue make more money than any plot or franchise. R2D2, Chewie, and Grogu are a HONEYPOT and Lucas could probably speak ad nauseam about this if he wasn’t busy weeping about how he’s not getting all of it

Young children’s media does not rely on a lot of words to convey concepts

His Windwaker Design is literally inspired by kids cartoons and animation that relies on emotion not words

As a person who spent decades studying children’s media I can tell you kids respond to action and story that relies on physical acting, facial emotions, cause-and-effect, observation, and may things that do not need words

Samurai Jack, Grogu, Chewie, R2D2, Snoopy, Gromit, Pikachu, Groot, Boomhaur, Onion, Schnitzel, Animal, the Minions, Silent Bob, Driver (from drive), Mad Max (fury road), are all examples of popular characters who chirp, babble, or barely speak and people love the piss out of them

Movies started without audio and again the foundational concepts of most storytelling in movies happened *without dialogue at first*

Physical acting is a theatrical medium that both adults and children respond positively to

Physical acting is the foundation of fight scenes, chase scenes, stunts, and action in general- things that will be highly features in this movie

Animation, Illustration, and Visual story telling LIKE MOVIES is based on *showing, not telling* for 90% of its time.

James baxter, norman rockwell, charlie chaplin don’t need words to carry bankrolls and make you piss yourself in tears. James Dean also inspired an entire hollywood casting standard based on *staring in vibes*

Some of the most emotionally grappling movies and moments in cinema come from no dialogue in the mix. Up is still fucking you up, and the Piano is a rollercoaster of turmoil because of its silent protagonist. There is literally a No Dialogue cut of Fury Road that fucks and is highly praised

We literally have examples in the GAMES where support characters and other protagonists carry the weight of exposition, conversation, and explanation.

Zelda is right there you twerps, she can do the talking even if she is not with link physically. We literally have examples of this in game too. Midna is also right there, carrying the stone cold plot of Twilight Princess on her quipped up bitch noggin

This whole conversational point about it being hard or impossible or a bad idea is an insult to writers, illustrators, musicians, actors, directors, editors, stage designers, story boarders, makeup artists, cameramen, dancers, game designers, extras, special effects artists, puppeteers, marketing departments, toy designers, STUNTMEN, comic book artists, Miyamoto, audience members, children, adults, quiet people, mute people & their loved ones, the established zelda lore, link’s OWN DAMN CHARACTER IN CANON, and yourself if you believe that

have a better imagination, you deserve it!

Be more curious & open hearted, you deserve it!

There’s no excuse for him to not be quiet in some way other than “they didn’t feel like it, creatively” which is valid and totally acceptable and not a big deal, and could absolutely result in a wonderful portrayal of Link!

[shannonsketches]

I’m playing TotK again because I don’t have TP available to me yet but can we talk about how the “Great Central Mine” is this close to the Gerudo border and how it is the only mine under central Hyrule, while there are two additional mines under Gerudo valley, both underneath the desert’s only natural water sources 🫠

[rawliverandgoronspice]

not to. Return There. but. I am compelled to burn my wings against the bright light until the end of times, so.

I think that if Totk Ganondorf was ever meant to be a criticism of imperialism, it's a pretty incomplete one without Rauru taken into account.

While Ganon is very representative of the "conquest" aspect as a Strongman Fascist who reveres strength and the violent part of the initial domination, he has no concrete plans of enforcement and structure down the line, no way to preserve his flimsy grip on power (the game makes a point to tell us he doesn't care for survivors and he doesn't ever seem eager to preserve any kind of infrastructure). Rauru --who somehow couldn't "come to the aid" of Hyrule without crowning himself king about it-- isn't about the conquest or the violence, but Hyrule is nothing if not an extremely well oiled system with a centralized religion, coin, language, history, legends and social class self-replicating since the literal beginning of times.

The *very long sigh* imperialism thing isn't about making one of these two egotistical weirdos more righteous than the other: it's about acknowledging the parallels, even if the game itself throws hissy fits at the mere suggestion Ganondorf and Rauru are two characters who are begging to be compared (and even make vague strides that they should be during cutscenes, though they are not super specific and immediatey dissolve into a little puddle of nothing, I'll give you that willingly), because if Ganondorf represents stage 1: the conquest... then Rauru should represent stage 2: the consolidation.

And the fact that the game is desperate to refute that these two kingly idiots adhere to the same fundamental system of governance (and the one who's deeply into the concept of centralization and automation and leveling of culture and repression of literal identity through the liberal use of masks not being the chaotic dramaqueen on his edgy unicorn giggling to himself about awkward murder scenes) feels like pretty offputting denial --because, truly, what is so scary about noticing the similarities? Wouldn't it be enriching and worth the conversation?

What are we so afraid of?

[errorwarblesrr]

Okay I gotta rant, I'm going to state rn this post is neither pro or anti Zelink.

I wish people could stop arguing over the canonicity of BOTW/TOTK Zelink. Idk I've seen a lot of arguments on it, like both sides are trying to checkmate each other. It's annoying.

I remember back when articles twisted the words of Zelda's VA, and a bunch of people were rude about it. Both sides. Then, when she clarified what she actually meant, there was a whole fit about it.

These games are about player freedom. Nintendo also wants Link, this one especially, to reflect the player. They want to keep it ambiguous and up to interpretation, yes we know Zelda loves Link but we in fact still don't know how Link feels about her.

Even stuff that can be used as evidence still have some ambiguity to it, for example Link's old house. It can be used as evidence for both sides and be up to interpretation for whether they are or aren't living together. On one hand this was Link's old house and Zelda lives there now, Zelda has his hairband, she says he always remains by his side, he can sleep on her bed, the table is set for two, and she has to hide the new tunic. On the other hand no one recognizes the house as Link's anymore it's only referred to as Zelda's house and his belongings are gone outside of the champions picture, there is one twin sized bed with one pillow and it's also important to note couples in this game sleep in seperate beds, Link can get a house in Terry Town, people talk to him as if he also doesn't normally go there, and there's an npc that Zelda isn't one to turn people away from her house so Link has permission to visit. There is room for interpretation and to come up with different reasonings for both sides.

This isn't me confirming or denying this Zelink but to show there is strong evidence for BOTH sides because it is meant to be ambiguous and up to interpretation.

There's also Link just not emoting for any cutscene he is in with her. I believe this is so you can interpret him feeling whatever you want him to feel (though personally I would rather him emote). He doesn't show any emotion when he learns the truth about her, when they reunite, or when the sages pledge to serve her. This is a stark contrast to the Zelinks that are pretty much canon like in Skyward Sword and Spirit Tracks. In both of these games there are very clear feelings for one another with Skyward Sword even having a romance theme for them. These Link's will emote and show how they feel in the moment with Zelda.

The point is it's tiring to see arguments on it. Civil discussions are fine, but heated debates are pointless. Aonuma says he wants people to see themselves in Link, and Aonuma also wants things to be open-ended and up for interpretation (like botws placement in the title). I haven't even touched on people hating on other ships (like miphlink and what not). I just think we should all be mindful, you know? You ship this Zelink? Great! You don't? Also, great! Both can coexist because, at the end of the day, neither is canon.

[deuynndoodles]

[id: a low quality screenshot from the video game tears of the kingdom. it shows link standing in his tarry town dream home, notably with the bedroom unit upside down. the bed is on the ceiling. end id]

i dont fucking know why granteson didnt tell me abt this

[hylianassassin]

More Scy babbling:

I still like the idea that Rauru is kind of Link's patron in a way. Ganon has Demise, Zelda has Hylia, but Link never really had a divine counterpart. I read Rauru as a reckless, free spirited sort of guy who tries his best to be wise, but sometimes his emotions do get the better of him. One thing is certain though, he has courage in droves. So yeah I like to think he's the final piece in the holy trifecta.

Not to mention that the Zonai themselves are so heavily associated with the Faron region and the spring of courage.

Feel free to disagree of course <3

Just more headcanons.

[vicsep7250]

Do you think if a Magical Girl ate another MG's Soul Gem, they'd ascend into a higher/stronger form of themselves, with remnants of the consumed Gem's magic and personality?

Do you think consuming a Soul Gem also creates a huge implosiom of energy and potential, and deforms the consumer into a different uncontrollable or inhumane form, like the Secret Stones in TotK?

Do you think any of the World Ending Witches (i.e. Walpurgisnatch or the other Record Witches) could've done that as humans and that's why they bevome uber powerful over time?

I'm fascinated by the consumption - literal and otherwise - of souls by other beings with souls.

[fille-de-skroa]

With Tears of the Kingdom, I heard a lot of Zelda fans saying that Zelink is canon because Zelda moved into Link’s house and ThErE’s OnLy OnE bEd OMG… But it seems more believable to me that Link invited Zelda to stay to his home while he was searching for another one. That would explain why this NPC tells us that Zelda lived in the house near Hateno, but he doesn’t mention that Link also lived in that house.

And also, I don’t think Zelink will ever be canon. At least not explicitly, even if we have a lot of indication of a romantic relationship between Link and Zelda, like in Skyward Sword. But it’s not only about Zelink, it’s about every other ship involving Link and another character. While it’s obvious that Zelda is in love with Link, her feelings will never be mutual, or at least not canonically, because Link is the player, and it’s up to the player to decide what are Link’s feelings about the world around him. (It’s also the reason why Link doesn’t talk)

[saccharinerose]

I know it's technically vaguely "good" that TotK didn't get DLC bc it means it we didn't get something that probably should've been part of the main game sold to us for extra money but man...

I miss Rauru and Sonia...

[unironicallycringe]

Haven't the Sheikah always been considered Hylian?

No, they haven't - at least not according to my memory of older games or the wikis I just checked to verify!

The only time I can find where they've been cited as such is specifically from the TotK distinction, which is why it feels so weird for the game to retcon it across the board. In prior games and canon, Sheikah were considered a separate human people/tribe similar to the distinction between Hylian and Gerudo. (The term "human" used to be a separate distinction waaaay back in the day too, but then it seems to have gotten rolled into an umbrella term by around Skyward Sword.) To make matters even MORE confusing, there's always also been the term "Hyrulean" - this has historically referred to all citizens of the country of Hyrule, not just the Hylian ones. So in that regard, while Sheikah were not Hylians, Sheikah were Hyruleans. However, TotK seems to merge these two terms now as well(?)

I don't have a huge problem with changing all that wording normally! It's whatever, sometimes you mess with your worldbuilding for whatever reason. I think it's primarily an eyebrow-raise because the change comes with the additional knowledge that the Sheikah were recently subject to a canon genocide. So it's a weird choice to retcon their race into a subrace without acknowledging it in-universe. One could say "yeah, they're a subrace now, on account of the whole genocide thing" but I .... don't think Nintendo is trying to make that point, else it would have (or should have) been stated.

Thanks for your ask!

(also i'm worried about all the Sheikah/Hylian asks being posed on anon, so I apologize if I've intimidated anyone. I know the Scotland/UK ask really threw me off, so I reacted jokingly to it without ever "answering" it, but I promise I'm not weird about discussion asks unless the asks themselves are Weird)