I understand what you’re saying about the Chosen of the dead 3, but I think Orin and Gortash are in the same boat. She wasn’t part of the plan at all, she killed or tried to kill her sibling to actively be part of the plan. She wasn’t even Bhaal’s chosen, she forced into that position herself. And if her abuse is grounds for understanding, then I’d say Gortash’s abuse is too. Sold to a devil as a child and tortured for years until he escapes and he grasps at anything to be in control so no one can control / hurt him again. I think he’s a shit person that did shit things, but I do like the character. And I don’t think Orin’s abuse outweighs that of Gortash. Someone/something messed them both up really bad. Bhaal uses Orin’s bloodlust and trauma to get her to do what he wants, Bane uses Gortash’s fear and need for control to get him to do what he wants. Gortash isn’t more/less redeemable because he’s the smart one that put the plan together. Also being Bane’s chosen means if he fails, he’s tortured for eternity. After being tortured for years, I’d imagine he’d do quite literally anything to not end up there again. Either they’re both redeemable or they’re both not in my eyes at least. Ketheric is the most redeemable for sure, he started out with a decent reason at least.
Gortash is my absolute fav actually because of all the layers. He's a fucking onion.
"Trapped in narrative- escaping the narrative"wise Gortash is the only one who actively walks into His.
He could do anything he wanted after escaping Hells. He wasn't exactly chained up or forced to climb the ladder to world domination.
Back then he still had a choice, even if his mind, twisted and turned by being Raphael's captive, didn't want that choice. Because fear is a strong thing, fear can control person in the worst possible ways. I believe Gortash chose "be the worst ever so no one can hurt him again" road and narrative himself.
But he CHOSE it. (The same way, some might argue, Ketheric chose not letting Isobel go, but I think Ketheric simply wasn't able to let her go)
Orin is different because she didn't exactly force herself into the narrative; she had always been in the narrative. She was born into the narrative.
No Bhaalspawn is ever free and no Bhaalspawn is ever not Bhaal's tool. She would inevitably be put on Durge's path because Bhaal loves putting his children against each other and because only One Bhaalspawn can remain. She even tried to play by the rules and challenged Durge, who didn't take her seriously and refused.
Both Orin and Gortash are more tragic than Ketheric because they're broken children who can never let it go.
Gortash is willingly not letting it go while Orin is literally trapped in it (her family, her cult, Father Bhaal in her head).
Ketheric is someone who, if convinced he can actually redeem himself (and if Isobel is alive), would try it.
Orin can only be redeemed if you forcibly take her out of her cult and cut off Bhaal's influence getting DIRECTLY INTO HER MIND. (Bhaal doesn't really have children, only victims)
Orin could easily be on Durge's place, tadpoled and amnesiac. Tbh I feel like her losing memory is the only way she could ever break free because for her where was nothing but Cult and Bhaal. She wasn't allowed anything else. Confronted with the truth about her upbringing, she's horrified; she also had been punished by Bhaal before for disobedience, Bhaal commands her what to do and Bhaal literally strips her of her own will and body because this is what Bhaal does. But if we can claw her out of it, knock her memories away and cut Bhaal off? Then she has a chance.
That's pretty much the only way she can have it (there's a reason Jaheira calls her lost soul).
But Gortash would not want redemption because he was not forced into the path of tyranny. He chose it. He quite likes it up on the top. He's comfortable over there being the worst and selling people and giving explosives to children. The only thing better would be if he had someone to share his kingdom with, someone who gets his genius.
If put on the ground, he will try to climb right back again. He doesn't care about freeing himself because in his mind only on the very top is where he is free. This narrative not his cage, it's his castle, he build it and he's not giving it up.
That's why any attempt to actually "redeem" him would fail because he is Not Interested in That. He is interested in Power and Being the Biggest and Strongest. Also so ppl would love him, idk how he plans to balance it out with his tyranny, but he pretty much requires the gaping audience. Admire him, everyone.
I have several plots of dragging him off his high horse bc the other alternative is his death, but all these plots require things to be the way where he's actively stripped of power in some way or another bc only his own survival will make him somewhat cooperate on an equal level (one particular ally, durge or tav, but more often durge aside). He is not a team player. He pretends he is.
There are, sure, some AU salvations for him, but no redemption because He Genuinely Does Not Regret a Thing, nor will he.
Neither is Orin, but Orin is a broken doll with a god of murder in her head. She lost herself so long time ago no one even recalls it.
Gortash has himself because no one ever had him. He will do anything for his survival and this is why he does not want or require redeeming. Not dying from Netherbrain, that's another story. But he inevitably always serves his own interests first.
Orin fights for the awful love and approval of a cruel god, Ketheric's love for his daughter transcends her death.
Orin and Ketheric's narratives are two sides of the same coin.
"A child craving affection of a cruel parent" VS "parent doing unimaginable horrors bc of the love for their child."
Gortash is out of that particular narrative, his narrative is "There's No One But Me. Only I Matter. No one loved me so I will love me in excess. No one loved me so no one deserves my love".
It is an echo and awful influence of his tragic past, but it's something he actively chooses. He loves that narrative of his, even if it doesn't exactly fulfill him 100% (because it's lonely on the top. Because somewhere deep inside Enver Flymm still lives. Because he can't let Enver Flymm go no matter now pathetic that past self of his is).
His tragedy is of being lonely af and not admitting it/not having anyone to match him in his genius, but not his Tyrant Path. This one he chose for himself.
The thing is, of course gods use their Chosen ones. I think Gortash knows that, and I think he also actively uses Bane. He wears the coat protecting him from the fear and is a chosen of a Dread Lord. That's telling. He doesn't actually serve Bane, he serves himself and aligns himself with Bane for as long as it works for him.
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nikkicafeina said: There's just /something/ there when all our revolutionary leaders learned about justice and heroism and politics from Europe (sometimes IN Europe) and Europe learned it from Rome and in the end it just comes down to how we've never learned to say "freedom" in our own languages, and maybe we never can.
I actually have a much more optimistic opinion on this! even if our history has been brutalized four times over (spain, america, japan, and both marcos administrations), we did, as a people, learn to cry for freedom, and it did not come from a place of Roman imagery or European thought.
there were parts of the Philippines that managed to escape the full force of imperial violence due to the simple fact of geography, and they resisted tyranny as much as someone inspired by the writings of Rizal did, and there were parts of the Philippines that have always resisted the forceful reach of Manila to culturally assimilate and consume all other cultures and regions under an invented national one. these are calls for freedom, maybe without language, but it IS resistance born out of the filipino people, without the hand of europe to guide it.
even if much of our history was lost, rewritten, bastardized, the Filipino people have always resisted, even if the conclusion was tragic or forced into something else by someone's poetic but misguided bullshit, because at the end of the day, it is intolerable to be under the foot of someone else and it always has been, everywhere across the world.
the continuation of imperial visuals (whether it's the Western talking points of the government, the architecture, the Roman Empire) has a lot to do with structures of power. the government is distinctly European-Western. honestly, it's fucking American. it's driven by capitalism and imperialism, or a desire to ally with imperialist nations, to subjugate and maintain power to benefit a handful of officials who desire profit above all else. this is a tragedy, and we seem unable to shake it!
but. our students have always come forward to fight against injustice. we burned effigies, we protested, we call for justice even when our journalists are killed, our farmers are massacred in the streets, when our people are shot down by the military. many people from my province do not have a higher education, they would not know of the messy politics of imperial powers, but they do know that the elections were bullshit and the farmers are suffering and government doesn't fucking care, so they all turned out to march through the city to cry for justice, to be recognized.
today, we hold hands across seas with other oppressed people who are also desperate for freedom and peace. it would be nice to have our own words for it! but I'm not sure that we need it. it's enough to stand next to our countrymen and for others across the world and say, I got your back.
as the chant goes: from the classrooms to the streets, etc.
if our history had not been colonized, we might have had our own words and philosophies for it, instead of borrowed approximations, but the desire for freedom and justice is very much ours, and we have always called for it through action. the language now, I think, is one of solidarity. like, I think above all else, we MUST believe in a better future.
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i think maybe i need to replay rebirth some time to look at this diplomatically because aerith is My Favourite and i might be biased but i think my biggest story critique of rebirth is that i wish they'd done a little more with her. given that this is the game she dies in i found it strange that they didn't push her into the foreground a little more since this is their last real chance to do that with her as a living member of the party (i'm sure she'll show up in some limited capacity in part 3 but dead lifestream!aerith is pretty different to alive!aerith i think).
i know that sounds like a weird thing to say when you consider stuff like them giving her the game's theme song to sing during loveless and the fact that the last chapter is basically The Aerith Movie but there is a strange lack of focus on her in moments where it feels like we should get more from her throughout the narrative. this game pushes tifa and cloud's relationship more in the mandatory story segments, and i LOVED what they did with that relationship in this game, but it felt odd that the same focus was not given to cloud's relationship with aerith throughout the story given that the ending hinges on him being so devastated by her death that he enters a delusional state of grief. and this isn't even a shipping thing bc as far as shipping goes i'm an aerti truther and i feel pretty equally neutral about both cloti and clerith as romances (if anything i prefer cloti!). it's about giving proper narrative buildup to the relationship that the game's tragic ending hinges on - a lot of aerith's most interesting scenes with cloud in the bulk of the game are optional, which i think is a weird thing to do given what the game is building to.
i also wish they did more with her being a cetra! again, the last couple chapters put focus on this but prior to that aerith is weirdly quiet about it. particularly in cosmo canyon, while we do get the lovely bonfire scene, aerith otherwise has a weird lack of dialogue when it comes to the lore dump scenes with the gi and bugenhagen. i expected her to feel some type of way about these revelations but any indication of that is at best subtext and she doesn't really say a lot about it. and for all that they emphasise aerith and nanaki's connection early on as beings closer to the planet, once you get to cosmo canyon there's a weird lack of payoff for it. same with tifa's dunk in the lifestream - i kinda thought aerith might have something to say about it as a cetra, and in fairness i think it's possible she did and the game is withholding some of aerith and tifa's offscreen interactions for part 3 (i swear this isn't even just an aerti cope lol i think the fact that they deliberately show them talking without us getting to hear it might be something they come back to), but i also wish we got to connect with this part of aerith's character more NOW, while she's still here, so it can inform our understanding of her choices and feelings at the end. i just find it kind of a bummer because aerith's complicated relationship to her heritage is a fascinating aspect of her character and her tragedy that i think goes a little untapped in this game, which means it's likely to go untapped in the story as a whole since she's. you know. dead.
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I love NAE and I know he is a bit (well, more than a bit) of an antagonistic cretin, but it feels like his anti-social personality might be a coping mechanism for personal issues and insecurities he is struggling with.
I could be completely wrong and he's just simply a bad person, but I feel like it's more than that.
Either way I think he needs a therapy animal.
hoyly hell you've just given him characterization shots in so many directions that i don't know where to look first GJDSKLMCL
he's not exactly antisocial or anythin! antagonistic cretin he is, but that's just how he rolls, lil bit of a douche- have you seen that one vid with a guy walking his Emu hold on here- he embodies this in most situations
on one hand NAE is a lil shithead but he's a Fun shithead. cursin' up a storm is kinda just what some people do/how they interact. heavens know that when i bring out the curse n nasty words it means i'm havin a nice chill convo with someone
after this
he went and notified his own Admin/Mechanic about it so she could've go and help out Sparrows with things
if he was just Plain asshole stuff like this wouldn't happen
these two hang out, Euros gets a rise outta him by bringing up something painfully stupid, NAE calls him a fucking idiot with an apocalyptically low count of neurons and then they continue their hang out
he's neither a bad person or coping with his own issues/insecurities! he's just a tiny ball of rage who's rolling through life wishing he had one more finger so he could flip people off. bastard is prolly the best off outta the dramatic tragedies that are most of the Eo iterators
guy is guying 🤷♀️
n honestly he'd... probably kick an animal sooner than take one on for therapy reasons, he would Not have the patience
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