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horizon-verizon · 1 month

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Isn't it like wrong to call Viserys a rapist? He groomed Aemma and Alicent but he didn't rape them in a sense he didn't go like Aegon with Dyana. There are many types of rape of course but like it seems wrong

*EDITED POST* (4/13/24)

Ask comes in response to this reblog/post. This is about the show, yes?

No this isn't like anything with Aegon raping Dyana, taking her surprise and her yelling at him to stop. BUT I'd say that seeing that your wife doesn't want you to touch her means she hasn't given consent. Alicent was very obvious in her lack of desire to have sex with Viserys.

We have no scenes of show!Viserys marrying and living life with Aemma before episode 1, right? So we have to assume that in HotD, he also married Aemma at the ages in the original story/the bks. Age is definitely a matter we can look at here to determine grooming or no grooming, but since this is a world where:

most noble marriages are arranged and those marrying often do not actually get to choose their legal partners

where the marrying AND consummating persons can be under our (American, idk abt other nations) legal age of 18

we need to see who pursued who before the betrothal (not the marriage, the betrothal) AND why they did so? Because there is a difference b/t:

someone trying to preemptively make their future spouse more comfortable with them so the eventual consummation isn't awkward or a "failure" or stressful or something else I add below about the anxiety to perform one's duty

--AND--

them claiming they are doing such only to get the target to fuck them/be more vulnerable to their influence.

There's no strong proof of him wanting a sick sense of control or influence over Aemma before they married or betrothed. There's no proof of Viserys asking or pushing for a marriage with her for the express purpose of fucking with a child, because he wanted to have that type of control over her or any child. And they were arranged to be wed. He was around 16 to Aemma's 11 when they married and they consummated their marriage when she was 13.

Under this context, the 2 years of waiting might have been seen as "too long", as much as it shouldn't have been, but for whoever were willing to marry Aemma off at her 11 yrs of age are probably those who also applied some pressure to said couple to consummate, EVEN IF the couple actually liked each other, too.

Even without some external entity actively or purposefully making that sort of pressure--either maliciously or impatiently, like ordering a consummation versus constantly asking about it--the couple themselves could have both felt anxious to perform their "duties" to & for their parents/authority figures/families. But we simply don't know for sure and it wouldn't be mutually exclusive.

The couple lived & grew up in a world with little concept of a strong "legal" age, or a boundary for girls that was also enforced by laws. A world where doing your duty to your families, to your "God", to the authority figures around, to oaths you take you were often held as higher ethical standards than doing what some of us moderns would think is an ethical duty to "humanity".

Adult!Viserys expressly chose Alicent, though. And with Alicent being very obvious, I don't see how he couldn't have seen Alicent's reluctance or hesitance in all the times they had sex (at least 4 for each child)? From what little we see, they don't seem to be a couple where they (really Viserys) at least watch for each other's cues or signs of desire in bed. AllegedlyLola on TikTok says it best of HotD!Viserys (but much can the same shoudl be said for his book version): he says he loved Aemma, that he will always love her, etc. and pedestalizes Aemma to the degree that Rhaenrya could never be Baelon, her siblings can never be her, and all to never really give us a real picture of who Aemma was so he does not have to divulge how some of his actions have ruined Aemma's life. Helaena not having kids or at least stop having them before Rhaenrya becomes Queen/he dies would have even helped Rhaenyra...smh. He doesn't ever think to not let his daughter Helaena marry at 13 & have TWINS not long after (as Aemma died in part bc she started having children WAY too early after they consummated their marriage); he forces his daughter to marry Laenor to fix a problem he created instead of actually thinking about what would be better for her claim and position--which is not to marry a gay man!, esp when everyone knows he is gay; I mention Alicent already...this is the same guy who marries a 15 year old but gets angry with Daemon for seducing his 19 year old daughter and saying she is just a "girl"...bro...Add on the fact he allowed a faction against his heir and be lead by his second obviously hostile Hand & wife exist in court instead of properly intervening and diminishing Otto and Alicent's influence over Rhaenrya so she wouldn't have to escape to Dragonstone...no self reflection, just constant deflection, ignoring, placating the wrong people, putting his foot down at the wrong moments, not pursuing certain avenues or voids of information like in the Vhagar claim incident AND allowed the same thing that happens to his first wife happen to his next wife and his two daughters...ugh.

Getting back to Alicent, remember, consent is not a one-size-fits-all. You need to constantly ask for it and confirm it.

Keep in mind that this is an HotD Watsonian reading/analysis. The writers chose to make show!Alicent so vulnerable and defenseless to introduce something that modern viewers would easier think of her with their no-under 18s (and in certain age gaps, really under 25s) rule without making them really think about what these people themselves were going through. It's easier to assess a medieval setting or circumstance with the rules of conduct that we follow and know and then apply to them as if they would 100% understand how we think INSTEAD OF us FIRST trying to understand how they would think & react to what they have had to live with or learned so that we may expose how/where the double standards are.

I'm not saying that we should go back to marrying 15 year olds, I'm saying take a breather and assess how these people will think & act and assign the "fault" of such to the world instead of just them. Where it's appropriate. I am also not saying that you shouldn't feel uncomfortable, either. I'm saying do the activity fiction requires of us and see through the characters' eyes to understand them instead of trying to enforce you own views right away and all the time to find the nuance.

Example, this Youtube commentator perfectly describes Alicent's mindset within the lens & contextual vocabulary of what the feudal world asks of its people, acknowledging her victimhood but still holding Alicent accountable/showing/implying how wrong she isr:

#viserys i #asoiaf asks to me #alicent and viserys #viserys and alicent #hotd characterization #viserys i's characterization #alicent's characterization #character ages #aemma arryn #hotd #asoiaf

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horizon-verizon · 5 months

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Viserys loved Alicent more than he ever loved Aemma. He loved her so much that he always saw the best of her. Offended Corlys Velaryon, the wealthiest man in the Seven Kingdoms, in order to marry her. Closed his eyes when Alicent abused and mocked his “favorite child”, and spread destructive rumours about her. Viserys clearly states in F&B he married once for duty so with Alicent he would marry for love. Alicent was the love of his life, otherwise she wouldn’t have been able to get away with going openly against her husband’s heir.

*EDITED POST* (4/13/24)

Response to this post? Or more likely this one by lady-corinne I reblogged.

Yes and no, he seemed to love her, but I don't know about it being the pure & unbending sort of love and favor you're trying to make it be. a lot of this will be diving into his head.

Yes, Alicent is described as a "lovely" and "clever" girl at 18, committed to the Faith, and could be actually funny without meaning to be if it weren't unfortunately applied in sexist or cruel jabs--she definitely has her merits that would be considered desirable in this social landscape and outside of such conditions. To some people. Yes, his marriage to Aemma was arranged while he chose Alicent.

But I think you're forgetting that this is a man who is both invested in not being the one to muck up the trend of Targ prosperity after his grandfather ushered it in while being better suited to being just a normal prince but refusing to really fix the mistakes or put his foot down when he really needed to, or choosing to be stubborn about the wrong things (Rhaenyra's marriage)

AND:

he saw through her attempts to get Rhaenyra & Aegon to marry, so he wasn't willing to compromise Rhaenyra's claim for her pleasure nor her & the Hightowers' ambitions…and Alicent's ambitions are pretty much her first priority, aside from her kids' lives --- he dismisses her father when Otto persists in trying to get him to name Aegon as his heir, and with Alicent having been doing the same, he knew she'd be upset by that -- this was him protecting Rhaenyra's rights and not giving in to his wife's desires…so…

he went on impregnating both woman several times, by quick succession. He actually treats Alicent similarly to Aemma in this way. It's just that Alicent was older and "fertile" to be lucky enough to not die.

despite being the daughter of the 2nd son, Alicent's family is also very rich and influential, and the Hightowers have the cultural prestige of being those who "patronise" the Citadel, as well as their historical connections to the Faith (some members became High Septons)...the Hightowers still stood to gain more prestige on the advent of one of their own rising to become Queen Consort, esp when she is a closer relation to the lord--being his niece and the Hand his brother--vice versa, the Hightowers could have supplied a sizeable number of soldiers and supplies to Viserys and did for the greens during the war through said influence and power, esp getting their smaller bannerman Reachmen houses to join. More money and preventing bad relations/a possible rivalry with such a strong house. Useful ally/alliance.

The Faith has a pull on the minds and hearts of the overall populace, noble or common, too. With Alicent's family neck deep in the Faith PLUS the Targs already having dodgy relations with the Faith even w/the Doctrine bc incest=bad in the Faith religion, it's very possible that Viserys saw an opportunity in marrying Alicent to appease AND solidify Faith-adherents' loyalty to the Targ dynasty through such a marriage. Of course, ambition or politics don't always discount true affection of love, but Alicent likely wasn't just chosen for her beauty or how well they clicked.

Alicent was chosen under the pressures of his daughter being his only heir and wanting to allay/appease his council and the realm's concern with "backup" children. In a way, he felt his options were more limited.

Alicent was 18 to Laena's 12 at the time of the considering who'd he marry (after having impregnated his 13 yr old 1st wife and finally losing her to childbirth bc her body simply gave out from multiple failed pregnancies and harsh deliveries, he'd probably want to avoid both the pressures of impregnating another girl towards her death even if her parent gave the go-ahead AND the putting himself into that sort of situation of guilt and reliving those bad memories?) It's possible that Viserys saw in Alicent an opportunity to enjoy his own sexual pleasure and sexuality without worrying too much about potentially killing his bride, esp after their first two kids. How much that could that affect or twist one's affections for another person, idk.

What Viserys really did was to try to maintain a balance between his wife & his daughter, because he just inherently hated conflicts, had already married Alicent (so he didn't know she'd be so persistent), loved her AND Rhaenyra was his miracle child from the woman he probably feels very guilty about:

[A Question of Succession]:

Rhaenyra was both his first child AND the only child to survive from his first marriage. She "made" him a father by surviving. She came from the marriage that made him into a husband. And evidenced by the text [in section B], the trio's life together was very happy despite the pressure of the heir-making and grief when others died. Which is part of why Rhaenyra is, in the narrative sense, called the "Realm's Delight": if the monarch is happy, usually they're performing better but also her existence in the overall narrative of the Targ succession could have been seen as suggestive of the dynasty not dying out to those in-world. Like she's "proof" of that.

However, AllegedlyLola on TikTok exolains how he really pedestalizes Aemma when they talke about HotD!Viserys (much can the same shoudl be said for his book version):

he says he loved Aemma, that he will always love her, etc. and pedestalizes Aemma to the degree that Rhaenrya could never be Baelon, her siblings can never be her, and all to never really give us a real picture of who Aemma was so he does not have to divulge how some of his actions have ruined Aemma's life. Helaena not having kids or at least stop having them before Rhaenrya becomes Queen/he dies would have even helped Rhaenyra...smh. He doesn't ever think to not let his daughter Helaena marry at 13 & have TWINS not long after (as Aemma died in part bc she started having children WAY too early after they consummated their marriage); he forces his daughter to marry Laenor to fix a problem he created instead of actually thinking about what would be better for her claim and position--which is not to marry a gay man!, esp when everyone knows he is gay; I mention Alicent already...this is the same guy who marries a 15 year old but gets angry with Daemon for seducing his 19 year old daughter and saying she is just a "girl"...bro...Add on the fact he allowed a faction against his heir and be lead by his second obviously hostile Hand & wife exist in court instead of properly intervening and diminishing Otto and Alicent's influence over Rhaenrya so she wouldn't have to escape to Dragonstone...no self reflection, just constant deflection, ignoring, placating the wrong people, putting his foot down at the wrong moments, not pursuing certain avenues or voids of information like in the Vhagar claim incident AND allowed the same thing that happens to his first wife happen to his next wife and his two daughters...ugh.

With all this, he maybe felt that his status, position, and elevating Alicent to Queen Consort was enough to carry their relationship and any romantic bond they had. But it's also not likely he'd be totally self-blind (just denying to himself) to the possibility that her admiration & attraction partially came from those things. He's king after all, and apparently, it's a dream for noble girls to become a Queen. So while it's more than likely that he loved Alicent, it's negligible.

Unfortunately for him, he didn't count for a wife who was so traditional and ruthless (the last is a compliment on its own, but combined with the first, ew) , one who seemed to have a strong will of her own.

So it's not that he loved Alicent, he just wanted his cake and eat it, too. Be seen and perceived as a good king, maintain the leftover wealth & picture of generosity/prosperity and "wisdom" Jaehaerys basically left for him, while he really didn't know what to do with his own family and emotions half the time because he never accepted and took responsibility for how he contributed to Aemma's death by continuing to impregnate her (book & show) AND then cutting her open without her consent or informing to extract the son he put above all logic or sense. By doing too much appeasing to get people to like him or feel they have an "in" with him (which people like him can mistake as "liking" or respect) while isolating those who could have only made him stronger through honest loyalty and candor, telling him like it is while keeping that measure of observation (talking about not just Rhaenyra but Dameon here). But Viserys never wanted honesty! He wanted the fantasy of power.

People assume that Viserys didn't love Aemma or loved her less because he impregnated her way too young and way too many times. And because we don't get the word "love" between them. And because they believe that there had to be some truth in the rumors of Alicent hanging around Viserys before Aemma died, thus clueing in on the possibility that he wasn't so devoted to Aemma as to be taken in by Alicent while she was literally suffering. All of these are valid deductions.

However, as I will argue, I think that it wasn't so much a matter of love for love's sake as he could "start over" & not have to be encumbered by the worries of a too-young wife's ability to survive pregnancy & childbirth. Of course, he'd have some attraction in the beginning, but the anticipated relief would be a great motivator towards Alicent.

Plus, the impression R&B gives us of his life with Aemma and Rhaenyra was a very happy one, despite the pressure of producing an heir.

[A Question of Succession]:

You: "Offended Corlys Velaryon, the wealthiest man in the Seven Kingdoms, in order to marry her."

As for Corlys Velaryon, again, I think that he was banking on their closer blood ties, crossed lineage, shared historical heritage, & his own position as Corlys' king/superior to deter Corlys from really opposing him or being a huge problem. Which, ironically, he was correct about...if that was his thought process. again, we don't know.

Though Corlys was obviously upset and it did sour their relations, there wasn't really a real danger of Corlys openly rebelling, esp with the possibility that Rhaenys (a Targaryen princess who still values her maiden family but also would be thinking how young their kids are and how meaninglessly destructive such a thing would be for everyone involved [her discouraging war in HotD doesn't make sense though, bc the greens were always hellbent on war 7 they were the ones looking for it AND Aegon truly stole the throne, whereas Viserys is free-er tomarry whoever he wishes]) was at his ear discouraging him from that. Corlys was not losing anything material or essential thing here, a need, when Viserys denied marrying Laena.

To me, Viserys considered for a long time marrying off Rhaenyra to Corlys' Laenor at least in the smallest part of his mind and it didn't become a solid intentional thought until Rhaenyra got older. He sent her off on that faux kinds but not really suitor tour (kind not really bc its not like it is in HotD), and whatever incident with Dameon happened convinced him to finally force her to marry Laenor. Oh look, how convenient for him that it also retied Corlys to them after his own decision to not marry Laena...

Though I do feel almost bad for Viserys here. On the one hand, it's politically advantageous to marry the daughter of the man who has a fleet of ships to his name AND that girl being the daughter of a dragonriding mother [assurance that the kids would also be riders]. But the gir is 12 & he'd have to wait to consummate and impregnate her...and clock's ticking. Plus she's a child even to them. And if he had married Laena, there's no way Corlys would have kept quiet or not pressed even harder for Laena's son to be named Viserys' heir, and if Viserys insisted they'd probably have the Dance earlier. Or just a war without dragons. On the other hand, Alicent is much older BUT she comes from the Tower and was very adamant about "males-first" primogeniture...still, he couldn't have had his own official tour?

But then I remember his refusal to really have accountability while having the audacity to direct his own daughter and heir into a more vulnerable position...

You: "Closed his eyes when Alicent abused and mocked his “favorite child”, and spread destructive rumours about her."

Again, he saw through his intentions about the marriage at least, and we see his intention is to not encourage the thing Alicent wants most: Aegon's being named heir or having most of the power.

["A Question of Succession]:

Thus showing he had a kernel but very real and substantial kernel of distrust of Alicent that existed & grew before that moment.

.........

Option ONE: It's coul be more don't think that Viserys actually was aware of how deep Alicent's hatred for Rhaenyra ran or that the rumors either existed or that Alicent was the source, acting with malicious intent, because:

Alicent's faith devotion can lend the idea of her being morally righteous or at least "conscientious" of duty and giving "respect" to the hierarchy and her spreading those rumors to deliberately harm Rhaenyra, her stepdaughter, is too direct and contradictory to his explicit will for Rhaenyra to become his heir -- would Alicent really dare to hate his kid? He'd probs fool himself.

AND he likely believed that Alicent wasn't ruthless or daring enough to actually try to kill or seriously harm Rhaenyra after he died, because he would think Alicent valued her kids' sibling relationship w/Rhaenyra above her own want for power AND the socio-religious taboo against kinslaying, besides thinking/hoping she would love his memory enough to not do so

OR especially with how he and Daemon were relatively close after the loss of Baelon, he banked on the assumption that family would eventually come first. Again, that passive deterrent pattern.

Option TWO: Or/and it was way too late for him to have take-backsies or regret marrying Alicent. Sure he could put aside Alicent, kings can do that and have. Except then he'd offend the Hightowers and the Faith worse than anything he could have the Velaryons or Corlys. Again, the Faith-Hightower ties. Huge scandal and a mark against his house/his own reputation. He'd want to avoid all that. And he'd be endangering his "investment" in putting Alicent aside. Plus, they already had kids Alicent/Otto/the Hightowers could use, so Viserys may have "decided" on continuous "damage control", as he tried by making his youngest son Daeron and Jace have the same wetnurse and force his sons and grandsons to be in the same room together as to improve their relationships...which we know actually just made things worse. and again, I think he was hoping/"sure" that Alicent wouldn't bar Rhaenyra from her ascendance.

In response to Jaehaerys being known as the conciliator and managing to keep the dynasty on "track" for a long time, Viserys though that it is enough to appease by putting out an image of generosity (prosperity) and showing himself as actively listening to his councilors, letting them win the most battle of wills so they feel as if he's not a force they need to "put down" or rebel against. But Viserys unfortunately didn't seem to inherit a steady will.

So he does what he usually does when the politics have gone awry & off-balance for him--he instead tries to get the two women he loves to reconcile while not addressing the true meat of the issue or closing his eyes to deny the reality. And I can't totally blame him like I feel I can do with Jaehaerys or Aenys, he inherited the amplified issues with the Faith or/and primogeniture they created or perpetuated.

[HEADCANON TERRITORY] If we really want to get dark, maybe in his subconscious he's trying to avoid that case where he'd have to reconcile himself with the fact that his wife continued to put power before him or didn't leaned away from his hopes for a devoted partner -- that he brought that in. Viserys is the sort of person--ruler?--who finds comfort in denial more than facing the facts or exploring his options when he's out of his depth, which is why he's so obviously different from Daemon, why they don't really agree a lot of the time even though they love each other. Perhaps the feasts and dances were his way of distraction AND a way he could enjoy his family's company without having politics color his relationships.

While it's still very possible he continued to love Alicent and/or look to her for companionship, it's also inevitable that all this put a strain on their relationship that would only get worse (evidenced by Alicent deliberately and ruthlessly leaving out his body to rot for days to plan against Rhaenyra). Before then, he likely would have sensed that shift and can we really say that he felt all that pleasant towards her for us to think their/his love survived that strain when they got together in conditions where Alicent became more invested in the relationship more for the politics and status (an assumption I know and even if true, it isn't bad. But doesn't match his own entirely) and when her desire to have Aegon on the throne was denied, things irrevocably soured for them?

I feel that for Viserys to love someone, he needs to observe that they desire or approve of his presence. Otherwise, his interest or love starts to die. Or maybe not--maybe he clings? But who knows, I could be talking out of my ass. After all, we don't have journal entries for this last part I mention. But I think this would be very interesting to read...

Speaking of, wouldn't it have been awesome if we got those from various characters instead of just recorded declarations and anecdotes and testimonies?!! Like Dracula. Maybe, if he ever gets to it (probably won't) GRRM will look into that for Fire and Blood V2?!

[out of headcanon valley]

So...

I'm not saying he didn't love Alicent, never loved her, or that there was no chance or possibility that he hadn't become attracted to her before they married.

There are strong enough arguments for why we don't need to think that he loved her "more" than Aemma and that it was a bit more complicated. While the Velaryons were rich, prestigious, and culturally and by-blood closer, it's the Faith-tie, age-of-candidates, Otto's physical and constant proximity, and Viserys' loneliness or guilt that maybe put the Hightowers ahead. And from there, Viserys was trying to keep the chariot on heel.

After all my points, too, I tend to think of it more like Alicent was Viserys' second chance to "get marriage right" and have unencumbered love, be unconstrained in that area. It's also why he might have been more affectionate than some wanted or expected from him.

#asoiaf asks from others #viserys i's characterization #aemma arryn #alicent hightower #viserys i #targaryen succession #fire and blood writing #alicent and viserys #aemma and viserys #fire and blood #asoiaf

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