#and he’s the only one with the show that does it. in fact Jensen etc act annoyed at people constantly saying characters are gay

[musclesandhammering]

“Misha’s bi gaff shouldn’t effect Cas’s sexuality.”

I agree, but if your main argument for why Cas is gay is that “the actor who plays him confirmed it!!” you really need to take into account the fact that said actor has made a clown of himself in regards to lgbt stuff in the past.

[sapphyreopal5]

Y'know, I am very interested about Psychic guy (vigdissigritr) who wrote this comment, before wicked witch (Danneel) deleted it. And you say on your post you did speak with psychic guy. I want do know did he say more information anything about Danneel?

Me? I do still believe Danneel will get her karma for all the bad deeds she did during years of messing around with Jesnen's free will and ruining innocent people's lives by her spell works. Trust me, I think Danneel messed up with the wrong person who is protected by god and their ancestors.

I still believe Jensen is good man. I wish everyone would give him chance. I think Danneel is problem.

Hello Anon, thank you for the ask. I had a feeling an ask of this nature was coming my way soon and you delivered! :D So, I understand you are concerned about Jensen's well-being and have been made aware of her having done witchcraft from the getgo. Frankly, I believe that any spell used to attract a specific person is in fact black magic because if it's meant to be it'll be. The song "Meant to Be" by Bebe Rexha would be a great thing for Danneel and Gen both to listen and take to heart, as well as anyone else considering doing any love spells.

🎶So, won't you ride with me, ride with me? See where this thing goes If it's meant to be, it'll be, it'll be Baby, if it's meant to be🎶

and also

🎵I ain't gonna lie, ain't gonna lie 'Cause I'm tired of the fake love, show me what you're made of Boy, make me believe🎵

If it's NOT meant to be... Let. It. Go. Seriously, if you're that desperate enough to do black magic on someone else just to keep or attract them (or should I say lure them in), YOU are the problem not life itself. This life just ain't that serious you guys, let it go for real ha ha. I believe on a personal note, my ex himself used black magic on me, as I overheard him say one night when I was supposed to be asleep "I never pray I know but please, bring Ellie back for good and let me keep her". This is when I was technically moved out in Summer 2018 but only went back because I couldn't get off the lease. From what my guides have told me, black magic lasts at max about 30 years but I feel like somewhere close to 15 years or so is about average. With my ex, it didn't even last a year LOL! I explained here what black magic really is as far as divine blueprints goes and how it relates to the divine plans, along with explaining what divine blueprints and divine plans are. I decided to copy and paste magic in terms of white, gray, and black with respect to divine blueprints from that post of mine below for your reference.

* White magic is the manifestation of so called original divine blueprints, or what was always meant to happen. * Gray magic is the manifestation of so called fixes to one's divine blueprints and plans after someone has tried using black magic after their astral body tried "tampering" with someone's divine blueprints and plans through the computer located in Cloud Nine. Of course, these fixes sometimes come at the cost of someone else. An example of this is if a woman loses a job but shouldn't have. The fix could be where she gets another job; naturally since there's only 1 job, someone else who should've gotten that job does not get it and another version of that person's divine blueprints ends up manifesting or their divine blueprints have to get "fixed" too, and so on and so forth. * Black magic is the manifestation of so called tampers meant to benefit the person using it at the expense of others. For example, someone may use black magic to get revenge on someone else, get wealthy, etc. This is where someone's astral body (the astral body of the physical person who is trying to make a good landmark event or several occur to them at the expense of someone else) "tampers" with someone else's divine blueprints by adding in an unpleasant landmark event or several. In some horrifying cases, this can be say the death of a spouse via workplace accident in order to get settlement money from their dead spouse's former employer. The maximum amount of time someone can benefit from using black magic is about 30 years. All black magic does is ultimately delay the unpleasant landmark events in their own divine plans and making the pleasant landmark events occur sooner. What goes up must come down. People using black magic may have many good things happen to them at once, but they will also experience many bad things eventually.

However, I am going to say this about free will before I carry on talking about what else this psychic said about Danneel. People on Earth assume free will pertains to us being able to make choices, to move how we want, act how we want, etc. without being controlled. Here is the thing, in other places where there is no free will they can still make choices, move how they want, act how they want, eat what they want, all of that. So, what the heck is free will? Free will is more or less being able to make choices that harm or even kill others for selfish gain. Free will is essentially the capability of messing with someone else's divine blueprints in order to benefit themselves. Free will is the capability of doing things like murder for reasons like greed, revenge, etc. Free will is the capability of "stealing from others" as this psychic puts it (in short, like I said making bad things happen to them so good things happen to you).

Here, I am establishing that this guy does not know Jensen or Jared, doesn't follow them, etc.

Here, he mentions some health issues of Jensen's going back to Danneel. He sometimes says Daniel or Danielle I believe because this is what the translator he uses does but I know he meant Danneel so please read these as such.

Now, he also mentioned that he doesn't believe Danneel wrote the birthday post but it was Jensen because "it's necessary".

He also brought up some marriage issues going on as well.

This is where he talked more about Danneel and Witchcraft.

These go a little out of order because I'm trying to put similar messages together and also excluded a lot of them out of course as I wanted to highlight the things he said. I did tell him some things of course about things I've written about on here and such. I withheld a lot of info from him to see what all he picks up and see he does pick up a lot as a seer and as someone who doesn't know much about Jensen at all. Below, he talks about world karma and then I wanted to put in this screenshot set below that he mentioned May or June is when he believes things are gonna start panning out and also the said "aftermath" after she is exorcised from his life.

As for what else was said about Danneel's eventual fate... and yes Gen Padalecki is who he was talking about with regards to who she met with "yesterday" (this past Saturday, 3/30/2024)...

Hmmm. Even though I believe some of the messages he is receiving require "interpretation work" with what is really meant as far as who is speaking to him goes, I do think he has a lot of things correct about what her fate will be and how things will eventually pan out okay for Jensen. You mess with someone else's divine blueprints for personal gain and you will suffer consequences...

[hologramcowboy]

So I decided to look up the Family Business brewery Jensen owns and noticed several things lacking. I apologize for the longer ask but I wanted to see what your thoughts on all this are, as it seems to line up with the fact Jensen's image is a bit allover the place (not really authentic and unique like he was when he was younger), and seems like this translates with how his brewery is being run. 1) I noticed that their menu doesn't really have any standout items, merely pizza joint type food. Every restaurant I've ever dined in had some kind of standout food item or a "signature dish" if you will. As of today, if I were to place an order online all they have are pizzas including a build your own, salted pretzels, a couple salads, and cinnamon sugar pretzels and chocolate chip cookies for desserts. Seriously, where are the pies, cheese burgers, and other SPN influenced food items on their menu? Oh and they need to fix the inconsistency for their hours of operation between their online ordering site and what their website says are their hours for take-outs and such... 2) I did some research for the top rated breweries in Austin and noticed something curious. The Family Business brewery (which was not on any of these kinds of lists) is open only 4 days of the week, yet most of the top rated breweries in Austin are open either 6 or 7 days of the week. I remember in one interview more recently Jensen admitted that they were struggling from the COVID shutdowns and implied they are somewhat struggling still. I did some reading and learned that some restaurants choose to stay closed on Mondays due to lower traffic and therefore potentially costing more to stay open than staying closed. So being closed on Monday with this in mind I can understand, but why also Tuesday and Wednesday? They also are open from 3 to 9 Thursdays and Fridays and 12 to 9 on Saturday and Sunday. Are they hurting for cash so much they can't afford to stay open the other 3 days of the week, or are these people allergic to the idea of working a 40 hour work week? Unless Danneel and crew are using Jensen's name to lure in customers and essentially getting rich off Jensen's back barely putting in any hours to show for it... 3) Based on the photos I've seen of their merchandise, inside of the brewery, etc. I see nothing related to SPN even though this brewery's very name is SPN-related. If I were to walk into this place tomorrow with no knowledge of who owns the place, I would have no idea Jensen Ackles owns the bar nor would I know the influence or story of how the brewery came to be (and the name too). If Jensen's name and SPN career is supposed to drive traffic to their brewery, why does the menu, decor and merchandise they sell not reflect this at all? Literally nothing stands out about this place, it looks like a "normal" brewery or bar to me honestly. The image, the decor, the merchandise, the menu, even the outside of this place, nothing about it would pull me in to walk in and eat and drink. Where's the uniqueness, the authenticity, the story?

There's no uniqueness and targetted branding because Jensen started this venture as an easy cash cow. He could have created exclusive experiences for people and made a name for himself but instead he just invested as little money, effort, planning and energy as possible and relied on his name to draw people in. Thatis a very, very poor business strategy.

As for the pizza, as someone who has quite a few friends with deep Italian roots, please let's not call that pizza. Real pizza is a whole different universe and experience and I highly recommend ordering from an authentic Italian restaurant instead.

The food in general takes a long time to reach the customer and that's an extremely bad customer experience, one of many, just check out the reviews and how poorly FBBC answers them without actually resolving the quality side of their attitude OR services. His business is struggling because instead of honoring customers he is all about himself and not focusing on delivering value but rather on what he can easily take with the least money and effort invested.

I 150% with you, he could have created a legacy brand but that would have required quality and soul, something he seems to sadly lack as he is unable to touch upon authenticity.

[what-do-1000-swords-look-like]

*logs in and sees even more anti-destiel posts*

Must be a day ending in Y.

Here's the thing: ship what you want, don't ship, whatever. That's your right. You also can have opinions on said ships or not shipping something. But for the love of God, can we please stop misrepresenting supposed facts and outright lying? Just because you don't want to acknowledge something present in the show? Or because one of you is super obsessed with Jensen while at the same time hating him because he married someone else and didn't come to sweep you off of your feet because you're his supposed soulmate? (which btw, while very weird in general, what does that even have to do with destiel? why are you even weighing in when it's clear that you're only saying what YOU believe while trying to speak for him as if you two are a single unit? It's creepy and makes no sense. Keep your obsession in check, please)

Alright, let's get started:

1) Jensen's actual words:

Firstly, if you're going to quote someone and state their opinion on the matter as FACT, let's not only get the source right but also list it so people can see what the person had to say for themselves so they can not only get the actual facts but come to their own conclusions (critical thinking, remember?). It's literally a link you can put into the post from YouTube, it's not rocket science last I checked.

29:35 is where it starts

A woman asks when did Jensen know about Cas' "romantic, deep love" for Dean before 15x18. Meaning when he did know bts as an actor.

Jensen's answer: "I don't think Dean ever really knew until the very end there." -- not only does he not answer the question in its original form (and hey, it's a con, it's loud, tons of people there waiting for his answer, he probably wasn't prepared for this question, etc - so I get it, I'm not criticizing him, I'm just stating facts), he responds initially for Dean, not himself.

But in this initial answer, he even acknowledges what the woman just said. "Romantic, deep love" -> "I don't think Dean ever really knew until the very end there." LITERALLY RIGHT THERE - Dean didn't know it until it was said

No matter what comes after this from him, Jared, or even what Jensen has said at cons afterwards, his answer literally confirms what she just said, and that answer is what popped first into his mind.

Then, prepare to have your mind blown antis, he confirms it AGAIN: "In fact, I know he didn't, because I didn't play that." -> he played Dean as not knowing about Cas' "romantic, deep love"

Only then does he start to delve into talking about the term romantic with Jared interrupting. But he confirmed it TWICE with his own words. That doesn't nullify his opinion or his perspective on the relationship, but it does confirm that was the intention of the scene.

And again, the question was about when they knew bts about Cas' "romantic, deep love" for Dean, not what Dean felt, not what type of love Jensen considers it to be (or Jared), not whether romance was meant to be in the show or not. Through his own words, he confirms it. Twice. (watch it again)

2) Types of love:

I can't believe this is even a point some people have tried to make in attempting to invalidate the scene from 15x18 but it's 2023 and here we are.

Philia love is platonic/friendly love. (click on the links - since it was mentioned that Cas only has angelic/heavenly/brotherly love for Dean and Castiel's angel character is loosely based on Christian traditions, I chose the same Christian perspective in these links) Storge love is the love of family or brotherly love.

Agape love is NOT brotherly love. (if you're going to use these terms and claim you're an expert, perhaps learn what they mean first?) Agape love is a God-like love of humans, completely unfathomable.

All of this is easily searchable. Google is your friend.

Now agape is the closest to what Jensen says later in that panel (though it changes to philia mixed with storge in a later con) though he did not use that specific term. However:

The scene was written and performed with romantic intentions from Castiel's side. This is confirmed time and time again.

And since a lot of anti-Destielers tend to be anti Misha as well (and accuse him of placating, lying, and being downright manipulative when it comes to this topic), here are some other confirmations:

The script is available online (again, Google is your friend) and you can read it for yourself. Robert Berens, the screenwriter, wrote the script (and it was greenlit by Andrew Dabb, the showrunner, and kept in the episode with the network, Singer, and WB giving it the green light after reviewing it before it aired) with Castiel's confessing his romantic love for Dean. It's right there.

If it's not romantic, then why can't Dean "recriprocate"? Why is he shocked at the "declaration from his best friend"? Why is it Cas' "hidden truth"? If it's just platonic from Cas' side or familial or even a God-like love of a human then why all of these factors mentioned in the script to help guide Jensen and Misha in performing the scene? You know why. And one of these antis is the supposed acting expert in the fandom? Puhlease.

How's that for "script analysis"?

Not to mention, since it's clear these same antis don't know a thing about writing and how it actually works, why was this scene a part of Castiel's arc that connects back to his arc in season 15?

3:49 - "I know who you love"

Yep, they weren't planning the confession back then, but when the showrunner and the writing team did start planning the end of the character's journey going into season 15, this ties up Castiel's arc neatly and it's perfect foreshadowing. Right down to The Empty's involvement. And they tied it up this way why? To make sense with events that came before it so a visible narrative is present for this character's journey as well as showing his development. (that's literally writing 101 btw)

There's a shit ton more I could throw into this post but I think I've made my point. So the next time antis decide to sit there and scold people who ship/celebrate Destiel and tell them that they don't understand "script analysis" like you do or how dare they twist Castiel's love for Dean into something it's not because you're playing megaphone-turned-into-a-wannabe-parrot for Jensen (aka your point of unhealthy fixation) because Castiel only meant it as an angel, perhaps don't. Or at least look up the facts first before you spout off any of that nonsense. You've had no problem saying Jensen needs to take an acting lesson or two because he's basic and dilutes his characters while also having one note acting, so maybe you should take a writing lesson or two. 🤷‍♂️ Seems fair.

Think whatever you want about Dean and how he regards Castiel's romantic confession, or how Jensen sees it, or whatever you need to tell yourself since it was left ambiguous, but don't you dare sit there and tell people they're wrong for reading Castiel's love the way it was written, performed, and intended to be perceived -> romantic. Or imply that they lack a basic understanding of love, condescend to them to have to explain it to them as if they're idiots, and falsely accuse them of maliciously twisting your fantasy beloved's Jensen's words. Especially when it's very easily proven that the only ones in the wrong here are you, and this is very clearly a "you" issue.

It happened.

It was romantic.

Get over it.

[mydemonsdrivealimo]

So... OLIVER.

He's a big flirt, very cheeky but has a love of dark/morbid humour (that I feel is probably quite common with doctors). He's generally laid-back and tries not to hold onto anger/keep grudges (about the only exception to that is Declan Nash), but if he has a strong opinion about something then you WILL know about it, because he can be stubborn to a fault. A lot of those opinions will be against discrimination - because although he grew up without much thrown his way for being gay, he's very aware that he was lucky and that's not the norm.

Speaking of him being gay... He's not stereotypically camp and doesn't intentionally make a show of his sexuality. If he wasn't so flirty (about 90% of the time with men) then it probably wouldn't be obvious? Though, he certainly isn't ashamed. In fact, he feels very little shame in general! (Which is why he has a tendency to moon)

He's a huge believer that family isn't just biological and that home isn't restricted to just one place. He loves very deeply, whether it's familial, platonic or romantic; and he'll always be willing to help a loved one.

Things he loves... Music. He's a huge pop fan and loves singing and dancing along - but he has no talent for either, nor for playing. He loves stories. Mostly reading, but he will also make up his own silly little tales. Doesn't usually write anything down - just makes them up on the spot. He also loves reading to learn. You know the apps that teach topics in small chunks? He uses one of those, then if something really interests him, he'll get a book to read up on it further. Camping, and all the associated activities (hiking, fishing, roasting marshmallows, etc). He's not a fan of sports in terms of watching/supporting specific teams, but he does enjoy actively taking part in them. Animals! He almost went the veterinary route in medicine because he thought it would be the best mix of helping and being surrounded by cuteness 😻 His fave animals are cats and monkeys. And...dolphins and fennec foxes, since residency 😂

Ummm... I should probably stop, right? 👀

One last thing! Change gives him anxiety. He knows it's inevitable and it has brought great things to his life at times, but it always throws his emotions into a spin and he hates it.

i could absolutely see jensen and oliver as casual friends!! maybe theyd get a drink together every once in a while, and i can see them working together well!!

i think his tendency to flirt would be very interesting with jensen depending on when they meet (if he would flirt with jensen, which i obviously dont know, or if he was just flirting with someone else). in the case that he would flirt with jensen (feel free to confirm or deny), lets just say jensen isnt the best at being on the receiving end of flirting (or the other side of it tbh) and if oliver came on too strong, especially at work, it would definitely have an impact on jensens perception of him. jensen doesnt ever really take flirting as flattering, ig is the best way to put it, so it never comes off great in his book

i also think they would have some interesting conversations about sexuality and such!! itd be refreshing for him to talk to oliver bc he hasnt had the best experiences in the past

as for hobbies, i could def see jensen trying to get oliver into some other music!! maybe some pop adjacent stuff. also omfg they would kill it in trivia wouldnt they? jensen has so much absolutely useless knowledge for no reason and since oliver likes learning different topics i could see them, rather than getting drinks, doing trivia nights or something!!

[eisforeidolon]

After watching the trailer of TW in was quite natural that Jensen would get some heat as somehow he has put himself into that spot but now things are again going out of hands. My dash is filled with posts like Jensen is backstabber, Jensen is cunt, Jensen is just like his unhinged fans, Jensen and Misha are no different etc... To an extent where it is frustrating. Maybe I am wrong to think like that, but I cannot dismiss someone without giving him benefit of doubts just by judging his one wrong decision. Also, Jared posted something supportive for Jensen, his stans think he did that because he is great and classy which is very much true- but also I believe he is smart enough not to extend his support over a backstabber if there was no mutual understanding between themselves regarding the scenario. Or he can do it to avoid controversy, I don't know if that was necessary. However, I was damn angry and frustrated on Jensen and still am, but haven't found any reason to think he is the worst person ever till now, but this kind of posts mentally forces to believe that which is tiring. It makes me think whether I am being blind to certain truths because I don't want to handle them, but also I don't want to be judgemental on someone I don't know for his offense on someone else because I necessarily don't know the whole story. It's a strange conflict. You are one of them most sane peoples of this fandom whi are extremely rare nowadays, so coming to you for rescue. Hope you don't mind.

I think it's important to remember that SPN fandom is ... really super extra about everything. Prequelgate both set off brand new conflict and brought a lot of previously subterranean stan resentment up to the surface.

I'll just say again, consider the biases of the blogs you're reading. Compare what they're saying to direct sources and available facts. Consider what seems reasonable given everything you know.

For example, when a blog talks about a new development, do they frequently leave details out that don't fit with their opinion? Do they state what are clearly their interpretations as facts? Do they drastically contradict themselves from one post to another, depending on what will spin better for a consistent underlying agenda? Is their response to what they're reacting to actually proportionate? Can they admit to even the possibility of being wrong? Do they spend a lot of time claiming to be superior and uninterested while constantly diving into the wank they're supposedly above and the topic they don't care about? Does their opinion depend on believing some kind of underlying reason that doesn't actually make much sense if you follow the logic through? Does their version of events require whoever they stan to be a moronic, helpless blob that needs their protection? Or whoever they don't to be an idiotic mustache-twirling villain?

I'm not going to tell you who or what to believe, but I think if you consider the overall picture any given blog is painting in terms of the factors above? It might help you determine how seriously you should actually be taking what they say. Especially when it doesn't agree with your own impressions from the original context without the extra stan spin on top. This fandom is full of a lot of very heavily invested, very opinionated people. A lot of whom have very specific pictures built up in their heads of who J2 and each J individually should be. I think it's good to examine other opinions, but in doing so it's very important to consider how much weight they actually deserve. I personally have no more interest in digging for hidden clues in J2's positive statements and interactions with each other since prequelgate to prove they're fake than I ever had in searching for clues in the show to secret hidden storylines.

One last consideration in terms of dealing with all the negativity? Despite considering myself a wank blog, I actually officially follow only a small handful of SPN blogs that are largely wank free. I enjoy interacting with a much wider circle of blogs, but sometimes I find it very helpful to be able to check into the fandom on my dash without also having to check in to the wank, if that makes sense.

[sailorsally]

there's nothing sexy about silence 💅

i agree. but at the same time not every actor wants to spill their guts the way misha does. It differs from person to person. The fact that one is in the limelight doesn't automatically mean they have to share their every opinion with the public. Misha does is because that man is so so desperate to connect with anyone and everyone. Some actors just wanna do their job and go home. And tbh this makes sense, Misha went into acting because he wanted to have the opportunity to reach more people. I do not know much about Jensen but I think he went into acting because he enjoys acting. So two very different peope with very different reasons and objectives and they are behaving accordingly. So i think Jensen has all the right to be as silent as he likes but there is one but: Supernatural and Destiel is his work and I think being silent about it and avoiding adressing it directly and just talking around it etc is indeed very unsexy. He probably thinks it's actually none of his business to discuss any of it and technically this would be right on any other show but this is supernatural babeyy and since his acting choices are the only integrity that show ever had, he is in the line of fire anyways 😂 god why did I ramble this much. Im sorry. Have a nice day, express your opinions and be sexy 💃

[castielmacleod]

To clarify my Opinion on the prequel for the days ahead

—> I first and foremost do not care. Critically I am not actually a fan of spn. I could BARELY stand that show even when the characters I actually liked (literally just the side characters) were on screen. Now the see double you wants me to look at zoomer Mary “I had to be literally brainwashed before I could love and have children with this man” Campbell (with STRAIGHT. HAIR.) and ken doll John “I’m such a rookie goofball even though I literally volunteered to go murder people in Vietnam” Winchester, as they fall in heterosexual love as conceived in the mind of Jensen “I literally think spn is/was a good show” Ackles. Lol. There is nothing on planet earth that could compel me to watch or even 🏴‍☠️ the prequel, I genuinely want nothing to do with it.

—> I have to emphasise that even the prequel bringing back any of my beloved side characters could compel me to watch it and in fact that would have the complete opposite effect. I would actually be repelled because I do not trust Jason Ankles I do not trust Robbie Thompson I do not trust a single spn writer to do anything but ruin these characters (more than they already may have been ruined of course) and yes this VERY MUCH includes Cas. This includes Rowena. This includes Crowley. This includes if they put angels and demons in new vessels. This even includes if they somehow get 70? Is he 70? Year old Mark Shep back in front of the camera in an all-black suit to be snide and miserable and gay again. I am ACTIVELY hoping that the prequel doesn’t touch any of them but if they do I swear to fucking christ. 

—> I also really don’t actually care who does and doesn’t engage with the prequel within spnblr. Like I think the prequel looks awful and not anything I’d ever give the time of day but it’s whatever. I am only interested in in the inevitable D*sticule drama over this because let me tell you right now that people are going to care

—> As far as this blog goes I have virtually no intentions of engaging with or reblogging posts about the prequel (about the storylines, new characters, etc like I said I really do not care and want nothing to do with it) or prequel fan content (like fanart and gifs). The exception is the rule of funny and anything that allows me to be a hater. So posts actively mocking it or its storylines, or posts calling it bad. Another exception is posts pointing out racism in the show, or the American jingoism and xenophobia, or any sexism, homophobia, or transphobia. These exceptions are really the only prequel content I can see myself actively sharing to this blog. I’m not going to like, BLOG about it though. This is an spn blog. I plan to continue hollering about CrowstieI and such for the foreseeable future. I won’t be keeping up episode by episode, it’ll literally just be if I stumble across a post I like.

—> Going off of that. Everything I said in my earlier point about the show maybe bringing back characters I like is still true, I will not actually watch them in the show, but if they DO put Cas or Crowley or Billie or another angel or demon I like on the show in their original vessels (MAYBE if they’re in a different vessel but it would depend on the look/vibes of the actor) or if they actually produce my 70s flower power Rowena vision (and hopefully it would be Ruth Connell because hopefully tptb would understand Rowena stopped ageing in medieval times and it wouldn’t make sense to cast a younger actor to play her just in the 70s, but tptb + understanding is always a tough one to wish for so). If they do those things then I may have to reblog gifs, fanart, or screens of them if only for the Visuals. But it would be tagged for ts and it would just be me wailing that I miss them or whatever reaction I have and that would be all.

—> Otherwise though those are the extent of my thoughts on the prequel. If you’re watching have fun with it, if you’re not we’re shaking hands. That’s all!

[thatonelittlecurl]

For anyone who cares - lies I’m mostly writing this for myself. I finally picked Supernatural back up! Onto 14. I’ve actually enjoyed this season. The Michael storyline was kind of weird. Like they couldn’t take Michael’s Grace or something? The only option was the doom box thing? I don’t know. Honestly at this point the show is mostly held together by Jensen still giving it his all and pulling along the supporting cast (who mostly are still great; looking at you Rowena, Jodie and Donna). They still clearly don’t know what they want to do with Cas whilst also giving him a pretty heavy storyline (with the darkness - I know how it ends so…). Jack is a ray of sunshine that I am loving. But all I can think is how the bad CW writing is sucking the life from this show. Like we know that Deans love language is acts of care (like cooking for his family, sacrificing himself etc.). But they really struggle to get that across when it comes to Jack and to allow the audience to let go of how horrible he can be to Jack (and Cas). It’s frustrating to have to constantly read between the lines for these characters to be decent or consistent at least. Anyway I still have like 5 episodes left so we’ll see how it goes but highlights so far are the ladies, Michael/Dean. The costume department (clearly loving the Michael costumes and the mint condition costuming - bravo). Jack just being adorable. Like, damn, I get it. Must protect him. Low points just how uneven everything still is - it’s been 14 years guys. Get it together. The fact that Jared clearly checked out about 3 seasons ago. Honestly some awful acting. No wonder they stopped trying to give him storylines

Bonus side point that’s been percolating: it’s mentioned that Jack was provided with some knowledge of the world through his mum. Why he chose Cas etc. But what if he also had that sort of connection to Cas? He does connect with Cas at one point. So what if that’s why colours how Jack sees the Winchesters. Why he wants to be like Dean and liked by Dean because he’s running off how important Dean is to Cas. Anyway I should be working

[sortasirius]

What the Fuck Happened to the SPN Finale?

Okay so here it is, my Charlie Kelly style manifesto.

Before I get into it, I recognize that I will look like this to many of you, and that’s okay, I understand:

Secondly, your personal Takes about the writers don’t interest me, I don’t need to hear them. This, as I’ll explain, is going to remain a writer positive blog, and that’s the end of it.

Third, and most importantly: some of what I’m going to talk about is fact, and some is highly educated speculation. I will notate what is speculation, just so there’s no confusion or hot takes in my inbox that I’m a conspiracy theorist or stirring shit up for no reason.

A list of what I’ll be discussing

The episode in regards to the rest of the season

The episode issues: length, editing

Scene placement and speculation of scenes cut

The scrubbing of Jack, Cas, Eileen

Network involvement and general timeline of when things were cut

Misha: theories on where he was, official company line, why we can’t expect to hear anything directly

The silence of the cast post episode (in Misha’s case, mid episode) and what this might mean

Jensen speaking with Kripke about the ending: why it doesn’t mean what you might think (also why kripke remained positive on the ending)

Walker, and why this episode had a major shift

Why the network would do this or get involved

Why the writers of the show simply aren’t the bad guys here, and what I “want” out of this post, since I know it’ll get asked

This is very long and under a cut, but I hope you’ll give it a read.

The Episode In Regards to the Rest of the Season

So, I’ve discussed this already here, but it’s the most obvious thing to me, and that’s the way this episode simply doesn’t fit with the rest of the season.

These people in this room have, truly, been nothing but consistent when it comes to their arcs, especially this season, and the marked dropoff in quality for the finale episode is just too sus to discount to me.  Dabb’s whole focus has been character-based.  In his seasons, we’ve moved far away from MOTW and bro-codependency, the found family taking it’s place.  Does it really sit right to anyone that that was all thrown away in literally the last episode of the entire show?

This is speculation on my part, but as a writer myself, there is no way I would be happy or willing to stamp my name on something that I didn’t think would, at the very least, wrap up the season+ character arcs that I and my team had been crafting.

And before anyone comes in here saying, “well GOT did that!”  Bruh.  The writing was on the wall for GOT long before the final episode.  You could tell that the showrunners just wanted to be done (not only from the plot, but from the fact that they lobbied for a shorter season).  Miss me with that, it doesn’t apply here.  Andrew has, besides Singer and J2, been with the show longer than anyone.  He cares, he is meticulous and detailed, and this ending feels worse than anything Bucklemming has ever written, let alone Dabb.

Additionally, I’ve seen a lot of people say that Dabb was never behind Destiel, that it was all Bobo and Meredith and no one else.  That is reductive to the point of insult of the work Dabb has done to get this greenlit.  This man did not write the s13 Dean grief arc to be slandered like this.  That being said, YES, Bobo and Meredith were the leads on the DeanCas arc this season, but ANDREW IS THE SHOWRUNNER, TO GET EVEN THE CONFESSION APPROVED BY THE NETWORK HE WOULD HAVE TO HAVE THEIR BACKS.  AND HE DID.

Finale Issues

So, now that we’ve gotten the fact that this episode doesn’t hit on any of the major themes the show was barrelling towards all season, let’s discuss the fact that the episode is just...weird.

Not only is it shorter than any other episode (I think with the intro and the credits/crew thing at the end, it was around 38 mins), but it was also...idk, 90% filler?

One of the lovely humans in the POLOL server did the legwork here, and broke it down:

This is weird, y’all.  Most series finales are LONGER than normal (Lost, SOA, Longmire are the ones I can think of off the top of my head), and for the final episode to be this?  I saw more than one person point out that we only really needed 19 episodes, what was the point of 20?  AND THAT’S EXACTLY IT?  WHAT WAS THE POINT OF THIS FINAL EPISODE IF THIS WAS ALL WE WERE SUPPOSED TO GET?

It simply doesn’t make any sense, the first half of the episode was rushed, a final monster hunt gone wrong, but in the second half?  Nothing really happened?  Sam lived his entire life and Dean just drove around.  It doesn’t make sense to have all the emotional arcs left unaddressed in an episode that definitely needed some kind of spark.

Here’s the speculation I have: the episode seemingly went through a lot of changes between the initial inception of the final season and when we actually got it, but I think it would have been passable (as in, we wouldn’t be sitting here asking each other why each arc feels incomplete) until the editing room got ahold of it.  The only think that makes this episode make sense is network fuckery.  Truly, that is the only thing.  It explains the weird, cuts, the rushed pacing of the first half followed by nothing in the second half, the double montages of “Wayward Son” back to back, and Dean just...driving around for the last half of the episode.

Scene Placement and Speculation of Scenes Cut

Before I get into this section, the info of the shots in the episode I have come from a source that @occamshipper​ got a week or so before the finale.  She’s talked about this here.

So here’s what Min was given:

1-5: 1 INT MEN OF LETTERS – DEAN’S ROOM Dean is greeted by Miracle

6-10: 6 INT MEN OF LETTERS – HALLWAY/SAM’S ROOM Sam has his routine

D1 1 11-15: 15 EXT FARM HOUSE Establishing

N1 1/8 16-20: 19 Dad’s journal, marker, drawing of masked man in journal.

21-25: 23 INT IMPALA – PMP Driver picks the music

N2 1 3/8 1,2 26-30: 28pt2 INT BARN: A face from the past

28pt3 Sam and Dean say goodbye

28pt4 Shot early for technical reasons, presumably the overhead shot

N2 31-45: 41 INT MEN OF LETTERS – SAM’S ROOM Sam’s alarm goes off D4 1/8 1 46-60: 56 INT N7glasses for Sam, laptop.

So...it all fits right?  It all tracks with the actual episode, where it lands, etc.  The issue is between shots 29-40 which were apparently “too big to spoil.”  Uh.  Where are they?  And where’s 28 pt4?

After Dean dies, the next scene is Sam burning him, then shot 31, the shot of his alarm going off.

So.  Where are those 11ish shots?

PLUS we have the boards, which are scenes we KNOW were actually shot:

As well as scenes for 20 that were shot in 19.

It’s just...weird, it’s weird and again hits on the fact that the episode is so short and like 80% montage.

The Scrubbing of Jack, Cas, and Eileen

So now we have to reckon with the fact that Eileen was last mentioned by Sam after she got snapped by Chuck, Jack’s last mention is that he’s off being God somewhere, and Cas’ last mention is a ~knowing look~ between Dean and Bobby.

I’m sorry, make it make sense:

????????  That’s the end if it?  They don’t need to be discussed after this???  It’s just simply not something a writer would do, they would not introduce these characters, these arcs, without thinking there’s going to be some kind of follow through here.

So not only were three major characters (including two leads and both of the original characters’ love interests) completely wiped from the finale episode, it was as though Sam and Dean never even needed them, which just...ain’t it.

So why Eileen and Jack too?  Why not just take Cas out of it if they were afraid of the gay?  Because, ultimately, the episode went back to Kripke’s original story: just the bros, they only need each other and no one else.  They don’t want anyone else, they don’t need anyone else.  Easier to go back to something they knew was successful than trust the writers and their audience and take a big leap.

Alex even said he shot for 20 with “some of the guys” here.  What happened to that footage?

The complete 180 of it all still shocks me, I still cannot believe that we were essentially at the finish line, and the network just stopped short, and decided to go run another race, at the expense of the arc of this fifteen year legacy show.

Network Involvement and When Things Were Cut

Okay, now into the juicy stuff.

So I’ve pretty well established that network fuckery is clear, but how much did they get involved, what was the original intent?

Well again, we may never actually know what Andrew’s original script was, but I think, at the least, it would involve Dean speaking his truth to Cas and Sam living a life with Eileen.

Now, it seems today, that Misha said that Jimmy Novak was supposed to be in the finale in one iteration of the script, and while initially my brain was like “that truly makes no sense and he’s either straight up lying or telling a half truth,” I think what may be happening is Misha talking about as much as he can right now.

So Jimmy right.  Weird as fuck.  Why would he been in the Roadhouse and not Cas?  My current thought (this is about as reachy as I’ll get) is that Jimmy had no lines, could he have been in the Roadhouse as a red herring, like it said “Jimmy” in the script but it was just Cas in human clothes, a way to get around the network saying Cas couldn’t be in the final scene.  Also, you’ll notice that Misha didn’t say that Cas wasn’t supposed to be in the ep at all, just Jimmy in the last scene.

All this to say, there have clearly been multiple versions of the script, getting lighter and lighter with Cas and Eileen as the network pulled further and further back.  Remember, Dabb has to get things approved before they get shot, and if the network kept asking and asking and asking to cut Cas and Eileen, he had to find a way to work around it.  Granted, I still think that if we had been able to get a Dabb script that wasn’t torn to shreds in editing, it wouldn’t be so bad.  It may not be what a lot of us wanted (Dean speaking his truth to Cas and a reciprocation), but doing everything he could to give it to us in subtext or visual clues.

Plus, in all honesty, my man can’t keep his story straight anyway.  He said twice in his panel that the Empty and offscreen Heaven ending weren’t his original ending either.

In addition, remember that Jensen did ADR post episode 18, AND said in a meet and greet last weekend that Dean’s reaction to Cas’ confession was “cut down.” (Source here).  Many of us clowns got excited when we first heard about ADR, because we thought it would be upping the ante on Dean’s reaction, but I remember being a little sus when it was just crying.  My speculation on that is that they cut out Dean actually SAYING something, @winchestersingerautorepair​ spoke about that here.

The biggest sins were, in my opinion, committed during editing, where the network got too gun shy and sliced the episode until it was nothing but a heartless bro-fest of a finale, not mentioning anything about the other major characters that we all love, and letting the boys just suffer in separation until Sam died and finally joined Dean in Heaven.  The editing came by cutting all the major emotional beats between anyone other than Dean and Sam, leaving the skeleton of the story intact, just shorter and less...poignant than it was ever supposed to be.

Misha

We know Misha was in Vancouver, we know he quarantined, but we also know he wasn’t in the final scene, when he spoke about being in the last moment of the show months ago.  We were not crazy, he was there, he quarantined, and, in all likelihood (speculation but fitting with the timeline), he actually may have shot something (not much, but something).

I have sources here, here, here, and here showing where Misha was at that time.

Remember, the man was completely open about coming back until they finished shooting (look at this thread).  The switch happened, just like everything else, halfway through them shooting.

Please also remember Jake Abel posting his “Where’s Misha” video here.  Jake isn’t malicious, he isn’t being nasty here.  Misha was there, and everyone that’s trying to convince people he’s wasn’t just...isn’t telling the truth about it.

This is one of the things that makes me really mad, because they’re literally attempting to gaslight people into thinking, “oh we were totally wrong he was never supposed to be there” WHEN HE WAS THERE, WE KNOW HE WAS THERE.

So we’ve already heard from several people (Meghan Fitzmartin, Jay, a PA on the set of 19 (WHO WAS NOT WORKING FOR 20), Misha himself) that this was all down to Covid restrictions.  Ultimately, as this post says, we’ve heard FIVE versions of where Misha was.  None of it makes sense, but the Covid protocol seems to be the company line that others are repeating.

You may ask: why?  Why lie to all of us when we have questions?  Why, in Jay’s case, say that we’re all spreading false lies to stir up trouble, when we just have questions and things that do not make sense.  Simply?  Warner Brothers is absolutely massive.  These people have their careers to protect and are likely all under NDAs.  They want to work for WB again and don’t want to burn bridges, including Misha.  It sucks, but that’s why it’s unlikely that we’ll hear someone come out and say, “yeah we’re lying to you.”

Silence of the Cast Post Episode

So this is...probably the worst part of all this, at least in my opinion.

The guys had all been pretty excited about the end of the show (especially Jared, but Jensen’s panel last week was Jensen as happy and jokey and positive as I’ve ever seen him.  He was so excited about episode 18, about what it meant for Dean and for Cas, and I just cannot buy that he would have been that excited unless he thought there was something more in the episode.

Misha live-tweeted the episode, and was watching it with his kids.  It’s well known that Misha and the kids don’t watch the show because it’s too scary, and let’s ask ourselves, why would he have them watch an episode that he’s barely even mentioned in?

He also stopped live-tweeting at a very specific point in the episode (Dean’s death) and has not mentioned Supernatural since then. 

None of them, not Jared, Jensen, Misha, or even Alex, said anything about the episode for nearly 36 hours, when Jensen posted a salty photo on instagram.  It’s just...not what you’d expect for the end of a 15 year show, when the cast and crew are so close to the fans, so close to each other. 

My theory?  They didn’t know.  They thought Misha was, at least, going to be in the episode in some way, and when he wasn’t, they decided not to say anything.

You really think that Jensen “Heller” Ackles would have been so excited about the end of the show last week if he thought Cas wasn’t going to be in it at all?  Nah son, doesn’t make any sense.

Even today, in Jared and Misha’s panels, they seemed sad and...more than a little careful, both saying that there were things they couldn’t say, both talking around things that we all have questions on.

Jensen Speaking with Kripke

So this is where a lot of people are getting fodder to take shots at the writers, saying that Jensen hated it from the beginning, but I don’t think so.  I actually think I know what Jensen went to him about, and it wasn’t the lack of Cas or the weird pacing or the montages (which I don’t think were there when Jensen got the script); I think it was the manner of Dean’s death.

I know a lot of people were upset about that, upset with how...normal it was, coming off an episode where they literally beat God.  I actually didn’t mind it, I thought it was an interesting thematic take to be like: you can be a hero all your life, but sometimes shit happens, and you just die.

But imagine how hard that was for Jensen to read.  He would run to Kripke for that, because for him, Dean dying by being impaled by a piece of rebar had to be tough to swallow.

So, why didn’t Kripke say that?  Why didn’t he say, “oh well he had a problem with Dean’s death, none of that other stuff was in the script.”

Guys.  Why would he get involved?  He’s not going to burn bridges any more than anyone else is.  He said the ending was good because it’s the easy thing to do, it’s simple, will cause him no problems in his career, and he can just ignore the people trying to engage with him on it.

Walker

Something else to talk about is the major shift this episode had from the rest of the season: the shift from Dean to Sam.  I am NOT saying that Sam isn’t important, he definitely, absolutely is, but it was DEAN who really needed to wrap up his arc, Sam just needed to move on, get married to Eileen, become the leader he was always meant to.  So what changed?  What was with the shirtless scene, the Austin number and random case there, most of the episode being heavily Sam focused, going through his entire life in a montage?

Anyone else notice the 375 Walker promos, or Jared’s little spiel about Walker and how he hoped SPN fans would “come along for the ride.”

It’s...kinda obvious?  CW wanted to appeal to who they think the key demographic of SPN and Walker is: rural areas in the South.  It would explain a lot, why so much editing, why so Sam focused, the Austin number, the number of Walker promos, all of it.

I’m not saying this is fact, I don’t know that it is, but it is a little suspicious that even in Jared’s panel today, he talked A LOT about Walker and how he hopes SPN fans will watch it.

Why Would the Network Get Involved?

Simply put: $$$

If they think Walker can be the new SPN, and that those crazy SPN fans liked it originally, it’s a lot safer to go with the “original intent” of the show than do something risky (like making one of your two original leads queer).

And?  They don’t care.  They don’t care that the episode didn’t make sense, they don’t care that all the emotional arcs were left hanging, they don’t care by (potentially) smashing together two of Dean’s monologues (one to Sam, one to Cas) that it came of as...gross. ( @curioussubjects​ wrote a beautiful post showing how part of that death speech was likely meant for Dean here).  They don’t care, they never have, they just want to make their money and move on from the too-loud fandom that fought for representation too hard for too long.

It can’t help but feel insidious, which, honestly, it might be, but it really all comes down to the next cash cow, which, they think, is Walker, even at the cost of the fifteen year legacy show.

The Writers and What I Want

So here it is, all this weird, sus shit laid out on the line.  And you know what?  To me, there is no way to blame the writers, because they didn’t want this.

I don’t think Dabb and Bobo would have gone ahead with the confession in 18 without thinking that there would be some closure to that arc, they wouldn’t have done that not only to the fans, but for the sake of their own story as well: no writer wants to start something that they can’t finish. (And this applies to both Cas and Eileen).

Here’s a basic rundown of what I think happened: they had a clear arc from 18-20, ending in reciprocation at some level from Dean, Sam marrying Eileen, Hunter Sam as the new Bobby, Dean in heaven with Cas and big roadhouse reunion at the end. Covid prevented a good amount of that. Network had to stare at big gay 18 for six months, got cold feet. Thought about Walker, target audience and alienation of the rural areas if it went full gay. Misha quarantined and likely shot something (not much), he was then cut by execs and went home. They likely added in lines referencing Eileen and Cas to make it clear but more subtextual. They wrap, editing gets it and hacks it to pieces, so we get a shorter episode that’s mostly montages and jarringly bro-centric with nothing else. Arcs are left hanging. Dabb gets episode but it’s too late, there’s nothing he can do. Actors aren’t told so they can continue to do positive PR for the ending, they all found out at the same time we did: hence almost complete silence about the finale.

And you know what?  They warned us.  I talked about it here, but they’ve been telling us all season that Chuck wasn’t the writer, he’s the network.  I don’t think, still, that they thought it would be cut up like this, into something so unsalvageable that it’s been panned by almost everyone, even people who didn’t care much about Dean and Cas.

Finally, a masterpiece can be ruined by editing, and while I’m not sure even the script they ended up shooting on was a masterpiece (due to the network meddling already), but to me it’s blatantly obvious that it’s no one but the network that caused this, that took away closure for Dean, Cas, and even Sam.

So what do I want?  Nothing really, there’s nothing we can do, but I wrote this mostly to show people that the writers are not your enemy.   In fact, to the people trashing them?  You’re doing exactly what the CW wants you to: blame the obvious targets, blame Misha, blame Jensen and Jared, blame Dabb.  Scream and yell at them on Twitter and about how the show is ruined because of them.  The network keeps their engagement levels high, they don’t get as targeted for their behavior, and just keep moving along.

Just, please, think about who did this,  Mourn the show, be angry, but not at the people who fought tooth and nail for this for literal years, not the people who wanted it more than we did, not the people who cannot say anything because of their careers and the NDAs they’re bound by.

Someone is going to spill eventually, but until then, we just have to wait, and continue to be loud.

[silger]

About Jensen's idea

I just want to say a few words about Jensen's situation.

For several days there has been a discussion of his series and... So much negativity is pouring in his direction. I'm shocked! O_O I don't even want to go on Tumblr or Twitter because I've never seen so much toxicity towards Jensen.

Guys, it really scares me that all of you (Jensen's fans, Misha's fans, Cockle's fans and Destiel's fans - all the best we have thanks to SPN) are starting to turn into j2 fans who constantly blame Jensen for something. So much negativity towards him is usually produced only by them.

Yes, Mary and John don't interest me either. Moreover, I DON'T CONSIDER their love story as a "love story" at all (the plan of angels, etc.). They don't really interest me as characters. BUT.

It's not that it's John and Mary. The fact is that it is JENSEN'S CREATION. It's HIS job. It's HIS creation. It is HE who wants to show us and tell us some part of the story that we may not know yet. And the fact is that it's exactly HIS DESIRE and HIS THOUGHTS about it. And I want to see Mary and John through HIS eyes. Not through the eyes of the creators. Namely through the eyes of Jensen performed by Dean. How he sees and feels. Why? I don't care about Mary and John, but I DO care about JENSEN.

Without his participation, I would never have watched "The Boys". You think I miss the blood and guts in superhero movies? Do you think I miss super-humans doing terrible things and pretending to be good people? No, there is enough of this goodness in the world of cinema. I didn't watch "The Boys" because of Eric Kripke (even though I respect him). I only watched it when I found out that Jensen was filming in 3 season. It literally changed everything. Yes, I liked "The Boys", I won't lie:) But the FACT is that I sat down to watch it ONLY BECAUSE JENSEN was shooting there.

We have been supporting Misha for so long in all his endeavors - book, podcast, RoadFood, GISH, other charities and so on. We support him literally in everything he does. We support his opinion during Creation, even when he doesn't answer some questions. We support him even when he evades Destiel once again, starting to say their favorite phrase "everything is open to interpretation". Why? Because we love Misha!

Why doesn't it work for Jensen? What is the problem? Yes, the series will air on CW. So what? This will continue to be released thanks to Chaos Machin. This will be released thanks to Jensen and Dee. This will be Jensen's opinion about the story told by Dean. It's important.

You can hate John and Mary. Okay, I understand, really! You have a right to it, guys! This is true. But how can you say that "Winchesters" is a bad show or a good one if you haven't even seen it yet? We literally have NOTHING on it. No photo, no teaser, no reveal of the plot of the pilot, nothing. So how can you call it bad in advance just because it's a prequel? It's Jensen's idea and he's working on it because he has SOMETHING to tell us.

So why not support him ATTEMPT to do something new in the SPN's world? Moreover, what makes you think that he should shoot Destiel? He never promised it. Moreover, Misha never promised it either. Where did you all even get it from? Yes, I'd like to see Dean and Cas together again. Yes, damn it, I DREAM about it! But if Jensen is afraid to talk about this, then it's not as easy as we all think. And this is HIS RIGHT. You know, he could doesn't do anything at all. He could not even have created Chaos Machin. But he did it, so there's a good reason for it. And I don’t understand why you can’t just calmly wait for the series to come out and after the pilot episode start talking about whether this series is bad or good, and not smash it while we don’t even have a teaser.

The only thing I really care about is how strong the influence of CW will be. I'm afraid that Jensen won't be 100% free in his decisions, in his desires and in his plans. I'm afraid that CW will reject some of his good ideas. THIS is what I'm REALLY worried about, not that the show is about John and Mary. And if you're really Jensen's fan, and if you really love him, you'll understand what I'm talking about.

[hopefullystillatheatrestudent]

i'm so excited about you taking asks again ahhhh okay so. if you'd absolutely had to choose. what would be your top 5 cockles moments, and why? thank you ily <3

here’s the thing: there are so many routes i could go down with this, because cockles moments come in all shapes and sizes and formats. these include moments from their panels, their bloopers, the footage we get when they don’t even know they’re being recorded, stories being passed down from photo ops & autographs(one of my personal favorite ways to get cockles, tbh, because they’re all insane), and social media(tweets to each other, instagram posts & comments, etc.). 

SO! since many a list like this has already been made, and i want to stand out from the crowd, what i’m gonna do is definitively give the number one spot to each of these five categories.(i might even throw in honourable mentions because they’re so despicably in love that they warrant that. i really put my whole pussy into this, guys, i hope you’re happy.) 

disclaimer: these are my own personal opinions. but that also means i’m right. so. enjoy. 

number one: top cockles panel moment

so we’re starting off with a bang, because how do you even BEGIN to rank what atrocities jensen and misha commit at jibcon. every single one they’ve had is damning in it’s own right, for different reasons.

however, considering just how much unabashed fuckery they’ve given us to sift through, it’s a good thing i do have a personal favorite despite it all. it’s heartwarming, the sweetest thing i’ve ever seen, AND it’s jarringly cinematic - mainly because it has a whole ass arc to it that was years in the making. it might even be surprising to some people, but my favorite cockles panel moment, and what i consider the one that encompasses their entire gut-wrenching journey from 2008-2013 in the most sweepingly romantic gesture possible, is this one.

i want this burned into my retinas. i am not even joking. when i'm through with my explanation, let me convince you why this is thee most romantic cockles moment of all time.

first, some history: people call this the resume off, but many seem to forget the botched attempt at a resume off a year prior. and yes, you guessed it: it's during their break up. it's a juicy time period for a reason, guys. it came across as exceedingly one-sided and VERY awkward. let me refresh your memory as to just how bad it was, and just how hard jensen was trying and ultimately failing at winning misha over: the funniest part of the whole resume off in 2013??? every joke/bit had literally already been made/done. they were just going through the motions again, but the difference THIS time...is that misha reciprocated jensen's energy. it. is. fascinating. i want to get into it more detail in another post, and i'll link it here when i'm done, but the main takeaway, i think, and the main difference that showcases how much they've grown in a year, is that in jib 3, misha flat out refused to do an accent, and this time around, he indulges jensen for literal minutes. when i tell you they're crazy, they're crazy. i can't wait to actually dive into it later.

ANYWAY, the resume off culminates in this moment here. and, like, a million things happen in this gifset. actually, more like a million and one. the music starts playingneediremindyouthatthesongissingingintherain(h e l p), misha starts dancing, jensen 'perpetually fake grumpy' ackles lets misha think he's not going to join, misha sits down defeated, but no!!! that was jensen's plan all along(look at his stupid fucking smirk) and he offers his arm to his dance partner who immediately grins like a fool, jensen then leads misha into their kick step, they perfectly synchronise and let loose, and are then very clearly having the time of their lives, hanging off of each other with joy and ease. from their expressions alone i can tell that this moment is so. so. so. so! much more than what initially meets the eye. i mean-misha is fighting back the biggest smile i've ever seen. to me, it reads like jensen is offering something to misha, something that misha kind of gave up on expecting, and him offering his arm like that is like, a surprise to him in the best possible way(and it's so not platonic, let me just say that.) as soon as jensen did that, it ushered in a new era of cockles. this panel is jensen and misha's favourite for a reason, and i think this moment is the biggest clue as to why.

whew!!! ok. that took a lot out of me and that was only point one. moving on,

number two: top cockles blooper moment

cockles bloopers hold an extremely special place in my heart, because it shows just how fucking disastrous jensen and misha are. they are so goddamn infatuated with each other that they HOLD UP PRODUCTION ALL THE TIME TO FLIRT WITH EACH OTHER(???). let me repeat. let it sink in. jensen ackles; arguably one of the most professional actors on that show who puts everything he has into each scene, with mountains and mountains of notes to prove it: would rather hold up production to flirt with misha collins. this sounds fake. it's not. he does it. all. the. time. and here's the thing guys!!! i'm gonna let you in on a secret!!! misha loves it. he loveesssss it. on top of that-misha collins: overlooked because he's pranked and people assume he's unprofessional as well, but his only pranks are in retaliation/off-set, and he rarely if EVER causes problems if he can help it....lets himself get carried away when it comes to jensen making kissy faces at him!!! are you actually kidding me!!! i mean. misha. it's just a face. you've seen it a million times. i don't buy that it triggers something in you that strongly....you like it, and you like jensen's reaction. you can't fool me!!! lisa berry's face in that one gifset shows just how fed up the crew is with their gross, coupley boyfriend antics.

i could pull up so many examples. sooooooo many. but my favourite was sealed since the moment i saw it.

i actually already wrote an analysis on it but i can't find it :(((( which SUCKS because i really unpacked the whole thing. i'll try to summarise.

basically, a backstory is part of this too!!! jensen and misha both had a really really hard time with this scene(because it's explicitly romantic there i said it), they sat down for hours and poured over their scripts together, they were super super nervous going into filming, both of them, jensen especially, were super hard on themselves for their performances not being true to their characters but they both complimented the other's work(boyfriend moments fr). so, yeah. they weren't confident going into shooting. and how do they get themselves to feel better???? by cuddling each other, apparently.

a lot. a LOT. happens in this specific blooper. to the point that i saw it years before i knew about cockles and it raised all sorts of flags for me.

1) stop pulling my face towards your crotch(as a thinly veiled request that misha would, in fact, move jensen's face towards his crotch, considering it was jensen moving himself there in the first place. also, why so comfy down there guys???) 2) you're my baby daddy i know(in the most intimate voice i've ever heard please) 3) i know, i know, i love you too i didn't say i love you i know but you wanted to say it etc. misha's right, of course. that's what jensen meant.

it just reeks of comfort, familiarity and intimacy between the two, and it's a moment that is extremely sweet and silly at the same time. they're so <3

number three: top cockles found footage moment

WONDERFUL category. truly the culmination of the cockles experience. many people have said that shipping cockles doesn't work because 'they're just onstage you dummies!! they're playing it up for the audience!!!' here's the thing, love. i could not disagree with you more. once you climb your way up the cockles ladder, you soon learn that they are, in fact, playing their dynamic DOWN, not up. they really are just Like That™, and they could not care less about the paying audience, if we're being honest, considering how much time they take to giggle with each other and refuse to let the audience in on the joke. and i love them for it <3

anyway, my point is that this category is for all you naysayers out there, all you 'jensen and misha's relationship is just for show and is real life queerbaiting'(?????lordhelp???) oh yeah? ok, explain this.

he. he. he calls jensen sweetheart. literally enough said. there's nothing to really add here, except, misha and jared then immediately engage in damage control. jared's method is distraction and misha's is retconning('get out of the car, dude') this was what got me to buy into the cockles dumpster for GOOD good. you don't call your buddy sweetheart accidentally and sound so completely earnest while doing it! especially not when that buddy is jensen ackles!!! you think he would let any of his friends call him that? do you?

one more thing; if it was a slip of the tongue, little mouth thing or whatever, you think jared wouldn't have jumped on it immediately??? i can hear it now. 'did you just call him SWEETHEART???' yeah. that's what i thought. you know why he didn't? because it was too revealing.

number four: top cockles autograph moment

i mean, i think we all know what it's gonna be, and if you don't, well, do i have the piece de cockles resistance that is gonna send you over the edge.

if you haven't heard of this story by now, as a cockles, truther, i'm gonna go ahead and get you to read it, because there is no possible heterosexual explanation for any of it, and you're fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

spoiler alert: it's the story where phones weren't allowed in an auto session, jensen nuzzles himself in misha's hair, leans his full body weight onto him, holds his hand, etc. etc. i'm imploding just repeating this back, actually. also, just, the sheer amount of stories from photo ops where they tackle hug each other or slap each other's asses or sing romantic songs to each other or almost kiss is, frankly, a lot. if i could wish for anything, it would be to witness them in person.

and finally,

number five: top cockles social media moment

this one is super difficult, because there's obviously a lot to choose from. but you know what? full send, i'm going with this one:

i just. what to say about this. how often do misha and jensen watch sunsets together for it to qualify as ‘always’ ??? why are sunsets synonymous with their relationship??? that’s like??? a very romantic thing????? ‘this guy’??? the fact that it’s a CANDID??? i don’t know guys.

that could have been better but i am TIRED so. there you go rose ily

[hologramcowboy]

(1) Not really an ask, just a couple observations. You've spoken about Jensen and ad-libbing. I feel that early on in his career he relied heavily on his natural talent, and therefore learned some bad habits. At past cons Jensen has spoken about filming on DOOL where, due to the amount of material covered daily, they would have script pages/lines around the set to refer to and retakes were not done unless the error was egregious. Even after moving onto other projects Jensen may have relied on

What a beautiful question. Thank you for asking. ♥️

Grab a tea or coffee or whatever drink you prefer and get comfy because this is going to be a long answer. ☕😂 I'm going to put it in a Read More link right after this gif. 🤠

As far as Jensen is concerned, I see your point, on soaps they film a loooot of pages in one day, however, soap actors should be even more trained than regular actors and, in fact, ironically, most are. Why is this? Because they have to cry on cue within seconds, switch from bitch fights to tragedies to lovemaking to wedding to etc in one day (scenes aren't necessarily filmed in order), not only that, they have a big disadvantage, often times producers and writers don't let them know what will happen to the character or what the through line is until it's too late for them character and script analysis wise. Meaning, they have no proper information to fully build their character so they have to work ten times as hard. I know people like to mock soap actors but please know most are very well trained and they work in extremely hectic settings. Sorry for going off the subject, let's get back to Jensen.

While I do get that his tendency is to repeat what he did in the past, no actor that wants to grow uses the same methods of the past. There is no such thing as a stagnant actor and those who stagnate experience stagnation booking wise. Because acting is a rapidly evolving craft. Jensen lacks a proper actor's toolbox, he also lack something that is KEY: knowing how to fully analyze a script and a character. He often makes comments that show he does not study, get in touch with or understand the full dynamics of the story he is bringing to life, same goes for his character. He needs to learn to Sherlock Holmes the script to enrich his performances. ( Yes, that's an actual expression and Sherlock Holmesing the Text® was coined by Tim Philips, if you haven't read his book, I highly recommend it) Jensen also needs to understand that he is bringing to life a real human with a particular psychological make up, which means he should never play the idea of who that character is but rather find a way to recreate the character's core psychology. This is where an acting coach could help him with a few or constant private lessons until he learns to break down the script and character psychology on his own.

To give you an example, let's say you are playing a rap* victim, if you've never experienced that how can you live that state? You may have never experienced that but you have at some point experienced terror, deep pain, feeling violated to your core, PTSD and other states that match that experience. Based on that and based on the other elements of analysis you can meticulously organically trigger the psychology of that character and fully step into the role. There's are multiple techniques but they are divided into two types: Ones that center on using past experiences (which even Stanislavsky renounced because he noticed that negatively affecting the actors due to triggering deep traumas) or one that centers on Imagination (which is the safest and you can use the Alpha state, for example, to fully visualize the characters emotional life and experiences and step into all of that).

In order to know these things Jensen needs to do his due research. I have no doubt that he could be a breathtaking, dynamic, puts you on the edge of your seat actor if only he could take time to get in touch with his own craft. He still is in his own way but he could be so much more. So, for Jensen, I would recommend private lesson with an acting coach and, if needed, taking a script analysis class though should mention that most acting coaches have already incorporated script analysis within the techniques they developed so, if he finds a great coach, he most likely won't need to take script analysis class as said coach will walk him through it and give him the tools he needs to perform it on his own.

As for Jared, he does meticulously analyze both the script and his character. He also mentioned that, indeed, he reads the script in different contexts and moods and that's a very smart thing to do because it informs the scene, it also keeps him practicing different levels of his range. Sometimes written word may not immediately click despite script analysis until you try it from different perspectives and find what the writer was really going for so what Jared does is quite smart. I am sure he also switches objectives during rehearsal to see which works best. This is something a trained actor would do. If done right, every moment is lived as new with a different take and based on that he can then find the ideal tone for the scene. It gives him more control over his performance and it enriches the character's layers. That being said, you don't necessarily have to go through all of that to nail the scene dynamic but dedicated actors like to cover all of their bases.

In Jared's case, I think his block might be that he over rehearses precisely out of the need to cover all of his bases and, in doing so, he desensitizes himself and this results, sometimes, in a flat performance. So, for him, I would recommend doing exercises that focus on recreating the emotional make-up of the character and fully stepping into those emotions and riding them. For this he could create some Moment Before that supercharges him with the emotional state he needs for a scene or even an Emotional Diary and then let go and go into the scene riding those emotions. Because he works intelligently from his mind but he has a whole Universe inside and what a joy it would be to see him bring it out.

If he's in a rush then he can go straight to scene objective and a powerful substitution. Those are usually what you can go for if, for example, you have a super quick audition where they give you the sides on the spot and you only have a few minutes to learn them and create the character. Just walk into the scene with your scene objective and the appropriate substitution and fight to get what you want out of that substitution.

Also, there's not one right way to do things, it all depends on what works for each actor and the terms I used vary technique to technique but mostly refer to the very same thing.

I could have just written Jensen needs to learn how to analyze and do research and then connects his powerful emotions while Jared needs to focus on letting go more and riding his emotions fully rather than being to cerebral about things. (He isn't always but just those moments where he is less connected and too rehearsed). But, alas, I wrote an endless post. Forgive me?

P.S.: It's no wonder these two work so well together, when you think about it, they balance each other out. ♥️

Thank you again for the question, I know it's a lot so if anything is unclear please let me know.

[laf-outloud]

Ok, as someone who watches an unhealthy amount of CW shows, genuinely I don't understand people who hate on Jensen, Jared, or Misha for being bad actors. Because they are ALL bad actors, THAT'S why they're on a CW show. I love Supernatural, I love all three of them, but their acting skills are mediocre at best. And that's okay! I enjoy watching CW shows because they're melodramatic and fun without taking themselves too seriously. CW shows are like higher budget soap operas, you know exactly what caliber of acting and writing you're getting. I've just been thinking about this for awhile and wanted to ask fans and antis from all sides about this. While in anon, of course, because I DO NOT need this fandom coming for me. But I looked through your blog and you seemed nice and respectful enough. So, why do you see Misha as a bad actor compared to Jensen and Jared? And let me be clear, I don't hate Jensen, Jared, or Misha. I love all three of them and want them all to have successful careers post-SPN. So this isn't me attacking you for being anti-Misha. You just seemed like someone who might have a polite response to this question.

First off, watching tv is only unhealthy if it interferes with your daily life! LOL! (And thank you for thinking I'm nice and respectful - I try - most days).

In regards to bad acting, I'm no expert (my acting experience consists of business voice-overs and one line in my Junior High Christmas play), so what I share will be based on how I perceive things, certainly not from how an acting coach or director would see things.

I have to disagree with calling television actors/soap actors straight up bad. I think acting is relative and quality can be based on our expectations. I don't expect network tv actors to wow me like movie actors, but I do expect them to tell me a story without pulling me out of it by bad acting. What do I mean by this? If I'm watching a scene for the first time and an actor does something that makes me think, "Ouch, that line fell flat," or "What kind of acting decision was that?" then I'm no longer thinking about the scene or the character, I'm thinking about the actor instead. That's what I think of as bad acting.

As for J2M - I've put that below the break.

Speaking of noticing acting choices in a scene, the reason I refer to Misha as a bad actor is because he's the one on SPN that pulled me out of the story the most, and it didn't happen right away. I feel like he did a goo job with Castiel S4-6 as well as Castiel's return to form in S14's Lebanon when he had to play S4 Castiel again. I especially appreciated his nuance when he started to understand humanity and felt more like a fish out of water. It's his acting in the later seasons, particularly when he would play a separate character that I would full on cringe while watching it.

Bad examples include Casifer, The Empty, and AU German Nazi Cas. With Casifer, he actually practiced doing Mark P.'s version of Lucifer, except he was basing it off of Hallucifer, which was Sam's mind's interpretation. The real Lucifer was much more subtle and felt like a truly powerful being. In fact, Jared's Lucifer in 5.04 and at the end of S5 (and S15 dream sequences) was understated. I could feel the malevolence behind this all-powerful being. Casifer came off as a parody of what Lucifer should be, simply because Misha tried too hard. He lost the subtlety required to create that commanding presence. I was no longer watching Sam and Lucifer, I was watching Sam and Misha playing Lucifer.

His other characters, mentioned above, also felt like over-the-top caricatures. Jared and Jensen have proven with Lucifer, Michael, Gadreel, Demon Dean, etc. that you don't need to ham it up to inhabit a different character.

As for Nazi Cas? That was just an offensive choice by Misha that the directors let him get away with. There was no reason for Cas, the angel, who only showed up in recent years for the apocalypse to be German. It perpetuated the stereotype all Germans are Nazis, and therefore the villains.

And finally, Castiel's goodbye scene. I understand it was Misha's last scene, and there's certain to be some character bleed, but there was so much bleeding, I thought he was going to need a transplant. Cas' voice was gone, his stoicism, his posture, Cas just disappeared, and in his place was the actor.

I know those are the extreme examples from Misha, and I think he did fine with his other scenes later in the series, but he certainly wasn't helped by writers who didn't know what to do with him and had him standing around a lot of the time.

Anyway, I hope what I've said made some sense. I appreciate that your willing to seek out different opinions. If you get responses from other fans, I'd be interested to see how we differ.

P.S. If it helps, I also don't like Jared's acting choice in Walker when Cordell gets nervous. He's getting better about it, but his speech pattern takes on a staccato style, which can be annoying once you notice it.

[mydemonsdrivealimo]

omg wait i have ocd too and would love to hear more about jensen's obsessive compulsive habits (and how it effects his relationship with bryce?)

omfg i love this yall really ask the Best questions here (this is going to be a long ass answer btw)

(also starting with the fact that i actually have ocd it isnt just bs)(yes im gonna have to say this every time)

one of his biggest obsessions is around food, and its also one of the biggest things he works through in therapy. a lot of the time its things being undercooked, contaminated, expired, spontaneous allergies, etc etc. he often wont eat because of it or he has to wait until he can make something himself so he can see everything that goes into it. this is the only one that bryce really directly interacts with, and after jensen explains it to him, hes more than willing to list all the ingredients and let jensen supervise while hes cooking. after a few years jensen is comfortable with bryce cooking for him without the extra precautions

a few of the more specific ones:

guilt for declining an invitation to go out with friends because he feels like some disaster will happen and everyone will die. this one isnt all the time, but when it does happen in can be pretty bad. he wont stop playing different scenarios over until they get home or call him or something. a lot of tragedies and such in the news can fuel this one, so he tries to stay up to date with everything going on but doesnt watch it and reads it instead so he can't visualize it as easily (this is one that i do and its helped a lot)

needing to remember everything, especially what people say and their speech patterns. any exaggerations of a word or people repeating specific words, he needs to remember every little detail of it and it can stress him out a lot if he doesnt. with tv shows or movies he feels like he needs to rememeber everyhing that happens or it wont make sense later. its not as bad with something he can replay, but speeches and other announcements are things he is consistently obsessing over

with that being said, not remembering things is also a huge obsession of his. he is constantly worried that hes forgetting things or that he wont remember something really important, or that he misremembered something

balance is one of the ones that only shows up ocassionally, but it fucking sucks when it does. taking even amount of steps to get somewhere, lifting the same amount of weight with each arm, tapping something the same amount of times with each hand. this one tends to flare up when he hasn't slept (insomnia) and it can make getting through work very difficult

for a really long time, illness anxiety was really bad for him and taking any medications was similar to his issues with food. becoming a doctor has actually relieved this one, and if he does worry about it, he can rationalize his way through most of the thoughts so it's nowhere near as bad anymore

jensen also deals with a lot of violent intrusive thoughts, especially being around hospital equipment. usually just "what if i stabbed this needled into my leg as hard as i could" or "what would happen if the defibrillator was turned all the way up." these are definitely the ones he doesn't share or talk about. his compulsions with them are not harmful, but obviously if patients found out he was thinking hey what if i murdred you, they might not trust him. with that being said though, it does make him much more meticulous with his actions and more aware of what hes actually doing

also, jensen does have meds for his ocd, but he really dislikes the prescription hes on. it doesnt work how he wants it to, and makes him feel really uncomfortable so he doesnt take it all the time when hes supposed to. eventually he will get on a better prescription, but as of right now he avoids taking it when he can

most of it doesnt impact his relationship with bryce beyond what it would with anyone else, and, though it takes him a while, he does tell bryce about most of it (even the violent intrusive thoughts, but that one takes a long time). bryce really tries to help with the food one as often as he can, which include making dinner when jensen doesnt have the energy to because he knows he wont eat otherwise. hes always very supportive of jensen going to therapy and anything else he needs to do to work through it, and helps whenever he can

[eisforeidolon]

I know I'm not the first person to say it, I've seen other people point out some of this, but can people please stop making up and spreading false claims about Jensen and/or Radio Company just because they are mad about what Misha said? Doing this is equally as obnoxious as hellers claiming their various ideas and headcanons as fact. I've seen so much bullshit going around here recently, it's annoying:

- "Jensen doesn't write songs about Supernatural. None of the songs are about Supernatural." We literally do not know that because Jensen and Steve have barely talked about the meaning of their various lyrics. And the only evidence we have regarding this topic actually points towards the opposite being true because Steve has told his Patreon supporters that Jensen's lyrics and his word choices are often influenced/inspired by Supernatural. So if Steve is to be believed, then there probably is in fact some Supernatural influence (or at least inspiration drawn from the show) in some of their music.

- "Jensen doesn't write lyrics, he only sings them." Complete nonsense, both Steve and Jensen write lyrics and music for Radio Company and they have said so multiple times (see also point above), they usually just don't tell us who wrote what, unless directly asked.

- "Watching Over Me is about Jensen's friend who died." Bullshit with zero evidence again. This claim is about as true as hellers claiming the song is definitely about Destiel. In fact, it's arguably even less true than the Destiel claim, because in the case of the latter, there is at least one person associated with Jensen making that claim (Misha, whether he is lying or not), while there is literally zero evidence for the dead friend claim. That was nothing but speculation/rumor mongering by random Twitter users when the second album was released. From there it quickly spread to Tumblr where people blindly believed it and now act like this is a well-known fact.

The truth is, neither Jensen nor Steve have ever talked about the lyrics and meaning of that song in public.

We simply DO NOT KNOW what it is about.

(Unless you think Misha is telling the truth, then yes, Watching Over Me is likely the song about Dean and Castiel. If you are inclined to read the lyrics that way, they certainly can be interpreted to fit with the events of season 15, Chuck, the theme of free will, Castiel etc.)

And hell, even if Misha was telling the truth for once, so what? Jensen is allowed to write songs about whatever the hell he wants. Personally, I see it like this:

Option 1) Jensen hates Destiel with a burning passion and would never ever write a song about it? Cool. Understandable. And does not make him a homophobe.

Option 2) Jensen really did write a song inspired by the events of season 15/Dean and Cas/etc? Also cool. Glad he got inspiration for a good song out of it.

At the end of the day, Dean and Castiel are nothing but fictional characters and Destiel is nothing but a dumb ship on a mediocre TV show. If you are that bothered and invested in either Jensen writing or not writing a song about these things, then you should probably, as they say these days, go out and touch some grass. But at least stop making up stuff and spreading misinformation in one direction or the other.

The thing is, it would be kinda strange for him to be actively writing songs about Supernatural in terms of the characters and events rather than in terms of his experiences as an actor. Claiming that his songs are about it borders on falling into that weird space of implying he doesn't exist outside of being Dean Winchester, which is a bizarre fan projection of what being an actor is like. Like soap opera fans being notorious for shouting at their actors on the streets by their character names over things the characters did, that's not really how that generally works. Vague influence in word choice or writing about it from Jensen's own perspective as a job he had for years is not the same thing as actively writing about the characters/events in the show from the character's viewpoint. It's not impossible, since Jensen hasn't said? But it's really not that likely either.

Also, I'm sorry, but regardless of what the fans are doing? An event that literally happened in Jensen's life that personally impacted him deeply is not less plausible as an inspiration for a song than a ship he has repeatedly said he didn't play into, doesn't see as part of the canon, and which he has been obviously uncomfortable at people trying to force him to acknowledge as real multiple times. Especially not just because of Misha who has lied before about Jensen's feelings on this very topic. Jensen is not canon!Dean, and he is certainly not the thirteen year old girl in people's D/C fanfics that's sitting around mooning over Meltyface McQueerbaiter. It makes zero sense that even if he was writing as Dean for some bizarre reason, that would be what he'd write about. Frankly, at this point I suspect Misha is just regurgitating nonsense he's heard the minions/hellers chattering about and that's why, despite being the one to bring it up, he couldn't wouldn't even name what the song supposedly was.

That said, so far as I'm aware you are completely right about people being wrong to state it as definitive fact that his friend's death is what the song is about instead. I have seen zero source for that, yet a lot of people claiming it's true - without even ascribing it to something Jensen said at a specific M&G or fan interaction, let alone with any verifiable proof to back it up. I've been tempted a few times to ask for a legit source on that, but never quite got around to it partially because I don't actually think anyone has one so it'd be fruitless. By all means, if anyone wants to prove me wrong on that...

We can agree that until or unless Steve or Jensen go into detail about what any of the lyrics mean, we don't know. We can also agree that fans claiming they do know for sure what it is about because because without that confirmation from the horses' mouths is obnoxious. As is slandering Jensen.

However, that does not remotely put every possible interpretation on an equal level of probability. You're trying to set people projecting their ship fantasies onto Jensen who they don't mentally separate from Dean, which are contrary to basically everything he's ever publicly said on the subject of the ship? Equal to people thinking he's writing songs about an event in his own life. Even if they're both 100% wrong and neither should be trying to speak for Jensen, one of those presumptions is still inherently more absurd.