#and it's understandable why susie doesn't want to let go

[vsa-pieldepapel]

You have said that the Weird Route is 100% on the player. Considering what ERAM says in it's weird route alteration to it's enter speech, how it accuses Kris of enjoying it... The question I want to raise is: "How much of Kris' inaction in Chapter 2 is 'being stripped of control whatsoever' and how much could it be 'hoping it wouldn't turn out too horribly' (until it was too late)" in your view?

HAHA. At first I didn't understand what you meant by ERAM and then I remembered. Caught me off guard. Anyway, I love this ask because it lets me talk about something I love and I use as a basis for headcanons sometimes, including here: Jungian psychology (who do I kid tbh Character psychology in general).

For a long time I had this gut feeling that the reason the Player's actions are limited but varied within those limitations was because everything the player can choose is something that kris would at least consider doing-- obviously, to varied degrees, but the smallest inkling of willingness at least. I didn't have any solid proof that anything Kris would never, ever consider doing was just not listed as an option, but now in Chapter 4 we get an excellent example of it: Susie's heal spell. At a segment in the chapter when Ralsei has accidentally made her self conscious and before Gerson goads her to practice, you can't cast it at all. The flavor text in the Power screen even says something along the words of, "seems the user doesn't want to use this spell" or somesuch.

Of course, Susie's special; she has never complied to the player, even when you use the SOUL to control her as a game character the diegetic explanation is her trusting Kris to command her on what to do (And she refuses when desired, like when fighting the soundwave boss). But we already have instances of Kris complying maliciously, and they occur here too. The player can force Kris to say something, but the delivery of that something is up to them and they use that agency to subvert the instruction when they so wish.

Kris will cover their mouth if you try to make them be a dick to Ralsei, for example. Kris will tell Noelle "no triple trucies" with a jesting tone so that she doesn't take it at face value, because they do want to truce with her.

Why then is there even the option to Equip and Proceed, if it distresses Kris so?

Because the player can read the thoughts of the characters. This means the player is familiar with what kris is cooking in their noggin so long as Kris has the SOUL in them. Every part of it.

In Jungian psychology the "self" is a collation of different facets of a person, some conscious and some subconscious. Every person has an internal and an external world, and not even the people closest to us can ever truly know the former in its entirety, because the inner world is always filtered through several layers of social conditioning, rationality, personal desires, etc before being expressed outward.

One of these parts is called the Shadow, and it is every unsavory part of the self; all attributes that the Ego dislikes and wants to disassociate from. Every person has a shadow, because every person is imperfect. Everyone has aggressions, fears, and things about themselves that they dislike and resist. A healthy, integrated self acknowledges the existence of the shadow: Every person has the capacity to think evil thoughts, the potential to be cruel, callous, etc. Of course, the choice exists to not be that way, and most people will default to repressing those thoughts or projecting them outward or, if well integrated, understanding that just because they exist it does not mean you have to listen to every single one. because most everyone doesn't want to be the worst iteration of themselves.

One way we can consider this is intrusive thoughts. Driving and thinking of hitting a pedestrian, or holding a baby and going "man, it would be fucked up if I tossed this thing against the wall, wouldn't it?" They're often brief and uncontrolled, and totally normal-- every psyche has a shadow, after all.

My theory is that just because Kris is willing to entertain the impulsive, subconscious, intrusive ideas of the Shadow, they appear as options to the player. The player is given insight into Kris' smallest whims. Kris of course has their own emotions, sympathies, anxieties, and preferences. Like any other person, they probably go "wtf, that's messed up, no." But when the player commands them, they can instruct Kris to act on those thoughts, and it then becomes a battle of wills: This results in the malicious compliance we occasionally see.

Kris thinks "man, it would be messed up if I just told my friend Ralsei to keep smiling even when he's destroyed." The very existence of that minuscule impulse gives the player the option to command Kris to do so. Kris as an independent entity with their own feelings probably goes "what is WRONG with you? I don't want to do that!!" and so they cover their mouth, bite their hand, etc.

Snowgrave is so turbulent because we are tapping onto basically the worst attributes of the Shadow of Kris and Noelle. Noelle could have refused to use Snowgrave. Her saying that she didn't know the spell was both a lie and an attempt to resist the command. She says in the LW that she'd choke berdly independent of whether you turn him into an icicle or not, and we already see Noelle practice intense repression and self-monitoring--- And who hasn't been annoyed and gone "man, I could kill X"? But because of other aspects of her personality, plus having forced Kris to act on their darkest impulses as well, her defenses are broken down. She doesn't have the stalwartness of Susie to force your hand. The player is also being really, really insistent. You have ample chance to quit the run at any time and have to not do so. Like Undertale's geno run, you have to commit. I see every time you have the choice as Kris being torn between "I don't want to do this, please don't make me do this" and the little nugget at the back of their head that says, man, wouldn't it be fucked up if we just kept going? And the player keeps forcing their will onto Kris and pushing them to listen to that.

So it's definitely more the latter than the former. Having dark thoughts is natural. even listening to them, what they're trying to say to you, is within reasonable limits. Repeatedly pushing someone to do horrible things, though, will break them, and we see this when Kris goes on their own to try to make amends. You're not necessarily taking all control from Kris and Noelle, but you're coaxing them to stop resisting cruel subconscious thoughts through the layer of the conscious. Hence, in Chapter 4, Noelle has had her defenses broken, and Carol tells Kris she's eager to see them tomorrow: She snapped. She has been consumed by the shadow, in a way.

I could be extra Pepe Silvia and find some significance in the fact that it's the Shadow Mantle, in the world that Kris shaped and that is hence colored through the less of their mind, that tells you "without play the knife grows dull"- you are going right there, into the darkness, and making Kris see things about themself they may not like.

Or, you know, the meta reason, it's vibeos game and toby wanted a dark route LMAO

[tawnysoup]

Deltarune theory that I need people to think about for a moment.

Monsters don't bleed.

You can probably figure out where this is going yourself, but if you want to hear my thoughts and evidence, it's all going under the cut.

Monsters don't bleed. We're reminded of this at the start of and throughout Chapter 4, through interaction with the bunny kid when you knock their door, and the funeral book about monsters turning into dust.

Conversely Susie has expressed a lack of understanding about this concept, implying she's bled before and doesn't find it weird. Implying she's used to a culture where blood is normal...

...but not dust? She didn't seem to put the pieces together that the dust in the 'snowglobe' (horrific implications btw) could be Gerson's body until Kris pointed it out to her. After which point she reacted with horror, as if she hadn't expected it, or didn't know that's how it worked?

Let's think about Susie for a moment. What do we know about Susie, now?

We know she bleeds. They made a point of showing it even though Kris bleeds in the same chapter and it's not visibly shown. We know she's considered a brute, more monsterish than those around her. She lays into this fact, playing it up. We know she had a rocky childhood. She's moved houses multiple times in the past. She's given up on trying to make friends.

She doesn't have a tail (or at least, her tail is a nub), and she feels embarrassed about that fact. When equiped with the jevil's tail, she'll say "figured I'd grow one eventually."

Kris used to wear a horn headband in the hopes they'd grow horns like their family, eventually. When Susie sees a picture of them with the headband, she quietens uncomfortably once she realises why.

Susie HATED Kris's guts, even before chapter 1. (From the spamton sweepstakes:)

Whatever they said made her back off and leave. I think she saw herself in them. The outcast. The odd one out in a town full of something else. Something that can't be understood. Is it any wonder she changed her tune when she found out Kris was not her enemy, but understood her? That Kris would leap to defend her, instead? That she thought, surely, this kid hates me for what I am just as much as I hate them for what they are? They don't hate me? They don't think I'm disgusting, a freak of nature, better off abandoned?

Why have we never seen her parents?

Why is it that, when we look away from Kris, we can only imagine "what Susie is up to"? Why no one else? Why can we see her, but not exert enough control to impact what she does? Why is our soul able to fight on her behalf without Kris's involvement? Why does she seem to exert control over the story even when it's clearly trying to be bent in favour of the player's decisions?

Monsters don't bleed.

Susie is a hybrid.

[ofekma]

Kris and Ralsei: slowly warming up (part 2)

The first reason why Kris took a longer time to warm up to Ralsei than Susie, is of course The (heart shaped) elephant in the room.

But the second and more interesting reason is

The problem of the Dreemurr family

Ralsei isn't actually a Dreemurr, but he shares more than just his fluffy look with the non-Kris members of the family.

He's kind like them, and supportive, and loving, and encouraging, and nice....

And he completely denies that there's anything wrong, ever.

Like Toriel does when she lets Kris wash their hands for half an hour.

Or when she doesn't tell the kids that someone slashed her tires and she's too scared to let Susie go home. Instead she just casually suggested a sleepover and called the police way later, discreetly, when the kids were distracted.

Or asgore offering to take Kris and Asriel to the diner

Despite having an empty fridge and being on the verge of losing his home and business.

Or his continual chase after Toriel and refusal to move on.

Still clinging to the idea that they can all go "back to the good old times".

Heck, neither of them even noticed that their child got possessed.

And while Ralsei attempts to comfort Kris after the Spamton Neo battle, he's still trying to pretend like nothing's wrong.

If you tell them that you're not fine, his advice is...

And if you tell him that you are fine he tells Susie

Because this is exactly it, isn't it?

Toriel didn't tell the kids about the slashed tires for the same reason why Asgore didn't tell Kris about his crushing debts. Because he didn't want them to worry.

But Kris isn't naive, they notice. They know that things are not fine and they're sick of pretending like they are.

So when for the first time, Ralsei sets aside his smile and is actually honest about the situation and his feelings about it, Kris starts to understand him.

Ralsei finally opened up.

But when he's trying to put on the mask again and pretend like everything is fine when it's so clearly isn't

If we let them, Kris finally tells Ralsei what they wished they could tell their parents and what they wish someone would tell them.

And then for the first time, completely out of their own volition, they choose to hug Ralsei.

And when he tells them about how hard it's been to keep smiling

they get it.

they really, really do.

And this is when a true friendship starts to form.

[sage-nebula]

I've now finished chapters 3 and 4 (pacifist run, without beating the chapter 3 secret boss), and I have some thoughts:

tfw people were so sure Ralsei would end up being the Deltarune traitor, but it's actually Kris instead.

Before anyone gets up in arms -- Kris betrayed Susie in the beginning of chapter 4, by agreeing to look for the code to the shelter and then doing everything in their power to prevent Susie from learning that code. By doing this, Kris lied to Susie; Kris agreed to help, and then went against that, all while keeping Susie in the dark. Yes, we as the player control Kris through the SOUL, and so in that sense it makes sense that Kris would retaliate . . . but Kris beating the SOUL away from the guitar in the closet wasn't just Kris hating their SOUL / the player, it was Kris trying to prevent the SOUL / us from showing Susie the code to the shelter.

Now, there are a couple reasons why Kris might have decided to betray Susie, neither of which are, "Kris secretly hates Susie," because we know emphatically that is not the case. (There are too many examples to cite, but off the top of my head is you can try to stab Susie as 8-bit Kris in chapter 3, and Kris yanks Susie out of the way while clearly panicked.) Instead, the two reasons I can think of are:

Kris was following Carol's orders to keep Susie away from the guitar / the code to the shelter, and following Carol's orders takes precedence over what Susie wants for Kris, and

Kris is terrified of what's in the shelter, and cares about Susie's safety, and so doesn't want Susie to go down there.

I think both of these reasons can be true at once. We know that Kris dislikes the shelter, both because of what Monster Teen and Snowy alluded to at the end of chapter two, and because of the way Kris tried to prevent the player from making their 8-bit counterpart go to the 8-bit shelter in chapter 3. If Kris is afraid of the shelter, then it makes sense that they wouldn't want Susie to go there, because they also clearly love Susie a lot.

However, Kris is also pretty blatantly working for Carol. They called the person who had previously given them orders once they saw that Susie had the guitar, and that person said, "I'll be right there." Carol then arrived home, much earlier than she was supposed to, and took the guitar from Susie. Unless Toby is really trying to make Carol a red herring (and I don't think he is for reasons I'll get into), it's pretty obvious that Carol has some kind of hold on Kris, that Kris promised Carol something, and that something has to do with the shelter and presumably the Dark World inside it.

So Kris betrayed Susie in chapter 4, and if you beat the Roaring Knight in chapter 3 (which I haven't, but I've seen the scene following), the Kris and the Knight do a little knighting ceremony, where Kris kneels before them so the Knight can touch their sword to each of Kris' shoulders. If Carol and Kris are in cahoots, then Kris and the Knight clearly are as well. That would be another betrayal on Kris' part, and a pretty major one. It's a betrayal to Susie to not tell her that they're in league with the person she's hunting; it's a betrayal to Ralsei to not tell him that they're working with someone actively trying to bring about the Roaring; and it's a betrayal to Toriel considering that the Knight clearly wants to take Toriel down to the shelter as well, and Kris is apparently willing to let that happen if you consider that they're working with Carol and the Knight.

So Kris is definitely a traitor at this point, and while it's understandable why they might not want Susie down in the shelter for Susie's own safety . . . a.) Susie's safety is out the moment the Roaring gets unleashed, and b.) It really might have much more to do with Carol and that promise that Kris apparently made than anything else.

So let's talk about Carol, shall we?

One interesting thing I noticed is that, if you investigate the red heart pillows in the Holiday house, yes you get the story about how Kris used to tease Noelle with them by pretending that they had ripped their heart out and then chasing her around the house with it. But you also get Noelle saying that her mother collects the pillows, and that she's (paraphrase), "really interested in heart-shaped objects." Noelle uses that specific phrasing. You know who else used that specific phrasing?

Spamton, when referring to Kris' SOUL.

Carol Holiday collects red heart pillows, yes . . . but it seems to me that the pillows are just a stand-in for what she's really interested in, which are human SOULs.

We know that only human SOULs can seal Dark Fountains. We also know that, unlike monster SOULs, human SOULs persist after death. (Presumably this works the same as it did in Undertale, because we haven't been given anything to suggest otherwise, considering the monster death stuff still holds up.) The Holidays and the Dreemurrs have been family friends for a long time, up until the point where Dess disappeared. It stands to reason, then, that Carol has known Kris since they were very small, possibly even since they were a baby (since we don't know when Kris was adopted by the Dreemurrs, but it was at least when both they and Noelle were children).

We don't know when Carol formed this obsession with human SOULs. But if she's had that obsession for a long time, potentially since even before Dess disappeared . . . could it be possible that she, having close access to the only human in town, groomed Kris to help her with this from a very young age?

When people hear "child grooming," their minds often jump immediately to sexual abuse, so let me be clear: that's not what I'm talking about here. I don't think Toby would put anything like that into Deltarune. But Carol was a close family friend of the Dreemurrs, and undoubtedly both Asriel and Kris were over at the Holiday household a lot when they were younger and the two families still interacted with one another. Carol would have had chances to be alone with Kris, to tell them about the prophecy and whatever this plan is, and get Kris to agree to help her with it. Who knows what she would have said to convince them, but young children can be easily manipulated by those they trust, particularly trusted adults. And if Kris, already feeling like an outcast because they're human when everyone else was a monster, was convinced that this was their purpose, this was why they were here, because they alone had the human SOUL that Carol needed . . .

Kris could very well form doubts after befriending Susie and Ralsei, but they've only been friends with Susie and Ralsei for a few days, whereas they've known Carol their whole life. Even with their doubts, those doubts may just make them think, "Well, I can find a way to keep them out of it / keep them safe," rather than, "I can't do this anymore," because they've held on to the belief that they have to help Carol for so long that the idea of going against that doesn't even occur to them, even when we / their SOUL actively resists the idea.

(It's also possible that part of their resentment for their SOUL comes from this: that Carol placed such important emphasis on it, rather than on Kris themself. Because Kris puts the SOUL in the birdcage again at the end of chapter 4 even before they try to go anywhere, indicating it's not just about not wanting to be seen by the player. Kris wants to be apart from their SOUL even when they're just trying to sleep. Perhaps their incredibly low self-esteem stems at least in part from the idea that they're nothing without their special shiny SOUL, no matter what they think or say or do or the bonds they form with others. And if that idea was planted and reinforced by a trusted adult, it'd make it that much harder for them to shake it off.)

So then the question must be asked: why is Carol so obsessed with human SOULs? Why is Carol using Kris? And what does all of this have to do with the Dark Worlds, with the Knight, with Toriel, Undyne, and Dess?

A lot of this we don't have answers to yet. But there are a few things that stuck out to me about the end of chapter 3 / the beginning of chapter 4.

At the end of chapter 3, we learn that the shelter has a keypad lock with three symbols on it: a pine tree, a police badge, and the Deltarune. In chapter 4, Carol says, "police . . . sacrifice . . . next week . . ." Now, perhaps I'm reading into things too much here, but considering that:

One of the symbols on the shelter keypad is a police badge, and

The Knight kidnapped Undyne, the police chief, and took her into the shelter, and

Carol knows about and is working with the Knight (she tells Kris that the church Dark World will be opened that night, and lo and behold, it is)

Then I believe it stands to reason that the current phase of the plan is to sacrifice Undyne next week, and that's why Undyne was taken into the shelter.

Now, it is pretty cuckoo bananas for Carol to want to murder Undyne, even and perhaps especially in a ritual sacrifice. And I'll get to that, but first we must also address the other two symbols.

One of the symbols is the Deltarune. We don't exactly know what the Deltarune is beyond the crest used by the royal family in Undertale / that it's what the legend that Ralsei tells us (which is also tied into the prophecy) is about. (Oh, and that Gaster wants it, per the end of chapter 4.) But to back track a bit, we do know that's the symbol used by the royals in Undertale. We know that it's on Toriel's queen dress when she's in the Dark World in chapter 3. So it stands to reason, then, that the reason why the Knight wanted Toriel in chapter 3 is because they wanted to take her into the shelter, in order to fulfill the Deltarune symbol on the keypad.

i.e., Toriel was meant to be another sacrifice. Which is why I said that Kris was also betraying their mother by siding with the Knight and Carol: because had the Knight taken Toriel, Toriel would have been dragged into the shelter to be another sacrifice.

And I say another even though Undyne hasn't been sacrificed yet because of the final symbol on the shelter: the pine tree. Pine trees are often used as Christmas trees, and there is someone associated with Christmas trees who has been missing for a long time:

December Holiday.

Before these chapters, I was in the, "Dess isn't dead, she's just missing," camp. After these chapters, though? I think she was taken down into the shelter as part of this plan, and that when she was sacrificed, the Knight became able to take her form. That's why the Knight has antlers, and why their sword looks like a wiffle bat at first. Those are intentional callbacks to Dess. Because whatever happened to Dess down in the shelter allowed the Knight to use her form, or at least part of it.

The main question, though, is . . . why?

Why would Carol sacrifice her own daughter? We know that Carol is not a warm and loving mother; she emotionally abuses Noelle, something that Rudy is aware of, yet even before hospitalization it doesn't seem he did too much to stop. (Because yes, he intervened, but the better thing to do would be to divorce her and take the kids, but I digress . . .) It's also pretty clear that Dess was a rebellious child; she played loud rock music, she had a lot of mature rated video games and movies hidden in her room, she showed Kris how to remove parental locks, she was into contact sports, etc etc, all things that seem pretty contrary to the wholesome and holy message that the Holiday family presents. Is it possible that Dess was chosen as a sacrifice because the shelter required someone associated with the pine tree, and Carol wanted to be rid of her problem child?

Or does it go even deeper than that?

One thing that stuck out at me in chapter 4 is that, when viewing the prophecies, the ones that Susie assumes are about her . . . they mention "a girl," but then said girl is shown to be wielding a sword. Susie doesn't wield a sword, she wields an axe. But we have seen that a wiffle / baseball bat can become a sword in the form of the Knight, who does that very thing when battling the party.

So is it possible that the monster mentioned in the prophecy was not meant to be Susie at all, but Dess? And if that's the case, could it be that Carol sacrificed Dess in order to get her out of the way, so that the Heroes would be down a member and couldn't stop the Roaring, because she hadn't anticipated that Susie would move to town and step in?

I understand that this is wild speculation, and it really is crazy to think that Carol would sacrifice her own daughter. But again, it's not as if she's shown to be a loving parent (on the contrary, we've been told for four chapters now that she very much is not), and she clearly intends to sacrifice both Undyne and Toriel.

And there's also the matter of Asgore.

Asgore was the police chief before Undyne, but he was fired from the force. Carol has control over who is hired (or fired) from the police department. We're not given a concrete reason for why Asgore was fired, but it's implied that it has to do with Dess' disappearance. We also know, from investigating the door behind the flower shop in chapter 4, that Asgore has a corkboard covered with wires and papers in his basement, with the floor similarly littered with documents. Someone nearby the flower shop also says that they wish he'd be "less obsessed with that stuff" (paraphrased). And we see, too, that Asgore is mysteriously cleaning the Holidays' house, even though we were never told he was doing that prior to this chapter.

Now, all of this could mean nothing. But what I think is that Asgore, as police chief and a family friend, was very intent on finding out what happened to Dess. And Carol, seeing that he was getting close to figuring out the truth, fired him from the force, perhaps on the excuse that he couldn't find Dess. But Asgore hasn't let it go, and is continuing to investigate on his own. Part of this is getting himself hired as a happy, dopey housekeeper for the Holidays, and while you could say it'd run contrary to Carol's interests to hire him, perhaps a.) Rudy pushed her into it, since Asgore has fallen on hard financial times since his firing and the divorce, and / or b.) since Asgore would also fit the Deltarune symbol requirement (even if he can't technically fulfill the police badge requirement any longer), Carol's keeping him close for easy access, just in case they can't get Toriel.

Now, as to why Carol would want to do all of this . . . the Roaring has been presented as an apocalypse, as an end of times. It also is tied to the Deltarune somehow, although we're not exactly sure how yet. Carol, a Lightner, is actively working to try to bring about the Roaring, the apocalypse, the end of days.

You know who does that kind of shit in real life? Evangelicals.

Now, I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on these people. I was not raised in an evangelical household, and I don't associate with them either. But from what I've read from people who were raised in those households, evangelicals want the Rapture, the apocalypse, the end of days to happen. They want it to happen because they believe that it's when they'll be brought to heaven while everyone else will perish in hell. If they could make the Rapture happen any faster, they absolutely would, but until then, they just wait eagerly for any signs that it's coming soon.

Church and religion are major themes in Undertale, and the Holiday family is heavily involved in both. Granted, Toriel is as well -- she sings in the choir, after all -- but not only did Rudy care enough about attending church that he used up what little energy he had to attend it, but Noelle also used to dress up as an angel and kept the wings because she loved them so much. (She's also referred to as "Angel" by Spamton, and it's the "Angel's Heaven" that the Heroes are meant to banish along with the Roaring, and the Deltarune crest is shown during that . . . but we're getting off-track.) Christmas is also, despite some people's attempts to make it otherwise, a religious holiday, and the Holiday family are all about Christmas, to the point where their entire home is coated in it. (Oh, I'm sorry -- their "ho-ho-home.")

What I'm saying is, I think that Carol may well be the Deltarune equivalent of an evangelical. Yes, the Roaring will bring about the end of the world -- but for whatever reason, Carol wants that. Maybe she hears "Angel's Heaven" as a good thing. Maybe she thinks she and the rest of the faithful will be spared while everyone else will be sent to hell. And maybe, like many evangelicals, she's willing to do anything to make it happen, because she believes that no matter how personal a sacrifice may be, it's what the Angel wants, and therefore she'll be absolved of it. After all, aren't there stories in the bible where parents are made to sacrifice their children to God? I know there's at least one where someone is told to sacrifice their son to God, and when they prove they're willing to do it, God is like, "jk ily!" and so he doesn't actually have to do it, but he still comes close, and I feel that's on a similar track here.

Regardless, I think Carol sacrificed Dess. And we know that she's planning to sacrifice Undyne, and it seems that was also the plan for Toriel before both Susie and Undyne intervened. And Kris, for whatever reasons they have, is helping her do all of this.

(It also puts a whole new perspective on the fact that Kris could tell Undyne, and only Undyne, about the Dark Worlds, doesn't it? Because Carol needed Undyne for the shelter, and to get her there Undyne had to be in a Dark World, so Kris was trying to get Undyne to the Dark World so the Knight could get her. And when the first two attempts failed because Undyne thought it was bogus, Kris slashed Toriel's tires to make her call the police and then created a Dark Fountain in the living room, forcing Undyne into a vulnerable position.)

I'm of course very interested to see where all of this goes, but while I'm sure Kris has their reasons (and I think there's a very good chance that Carol has been prepping Kris for this for a long time, since early childhood), they are also the member of the Low Self-Esteem Gang that I trust the least right now. I went from "poor Kris :(" to "holy shit Kris what the fuck" real fast at the start of chapter 4, lmao.

(Though having rewatched the kitchen scene again, Kris hangs their head lower and lower, and slumps against the counter completely as a result of the phone call. They also down soda like an alcohol shot. It makes me think that they really don't like this plan anymore, but they still feel obligated to go through with it . . . so I have regained some sympathy, I just still don't trust them.)

Anyway. Can't wait for 2026!

[mijlen]

In the wake of Chapter 4, allow me to theorize about The Deltarune Prophecy beneath a spoiler cut.

I'm seeing a metric ton of takes about the final prophecy (the one Susie destroys) which make no sense to me THEMATICALLY. "Susie dies," "Ralsei dies," "all three of them die." it doesn't add up to me why Susie would be (again - THEMATICALLY) portrayed reacting so violently to that news.

Again, the game implies that she reacted VIOLENTLY. I fully believe she is prone to outbursts when faced with difficult emotions, but I think that, were she reacting to a prophecy that involved herself or one of her friends meeting a tragic fate, she would react differently. She would demand answers.

So why the violent reaction? What was our Susie, who showed such fundamental and astonishingly NATURAL growth over the last three chapters, really trying to destroy here? How would it fit the theme of her arc?

I think I know, but let me tell you how I got there. See, what I couldn't stop turning over in my head after Chapter 4 was The Girl. I don't think Susie is The Girl. The stance, the silhouette, the weapon of choice... something doesn't feel right. I think that's Noelle. I think that's a hooded Noelle.

I think Noelle might actually be the true third hero.

We know "banish the Angel's heaven" is the end of the TL:DR prophecy, and Noelle is strongly implied to be the angel at this point. If Noelle's fate is to make a grand sacrifice in true JRPG fashion, that would make sense. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if we're in full "playing with JRPG tropes" territory here, and if "initial party member who is swayed to the other side" doesn't also become an actual thing either, with Susie. Susie, who is feeling unneeded, lesser-than, and who is fast approaching self-actualization. I specifically say "other side" rather than "bad guys," too, because I think the two sides of this story are more nuanced than we ever thought. If Kris is found to be working with the Knight, well... that might make anyone switch sides, especially if they are trying their best to be a TRUE hero.

So... I'm pretty sure the final prophecy portrayed Noelle's death. Noelle's sacrifice. Banishing the Angel's heaven may = killing the Angel. And I'm pretty sure Susie is the one to deliver the killing blow, and that the final tableau makes it clear who is who.

Susie is reacting violently to this version of herself that she wants to keep from ever existing. And I think that would also explain why she doesn't want to open up to Kris about what she saw. She is ashamed, she is probably going to bounce back from the initial shock feeling emboldened. She just wants to change things.

This isn't a perfect theory, of course. It's a knee-jerk one based on what I understand to be Susie's arc toward true Hero. There are lots of things this DOESN'T answer, like why does the original prophecy cutscene look the way it does, with Kris Susie and Ralsei (not "The Girl"?) I actually think this is all part of the plan, that Susie had to find her agency via the Fun Gang first. Besides, how killer would it be, dramatically, to have an updated prophecy cutscene if we finally learn "the truth"? Suddenly it's the Human (Kris), The Prince from the Dark (Ralsei), and the Girl (Noelle). They're both monsters, yes, but Susie is The Monster in this prophecy, literally and figuratively (I'm emotional even thinking about this, btw).

Even if Noelle isn't The Girl, I still think the final prophecy shows Susie killing someone that she cares about in order to "save the world."

This would also explain so much more about both Carol AND Catty's insistence that Noelle be kept away from Susie. Carol knows the Prophecy via primary source. Catty consults with the occult in order to know it. It's not homophobia and it's not necessarily horrible parenting, it's... a really shitty burden of knowledge for any mother to have.

Anyway... uh... heavy stuff... um...

The Jackensteun fight was great (nervous laughter)

(weeping)

In all honesty, personally, I would LOVE for the themes of redemption, learning to love oneself, to rise above, despite what everyone thinks about you and expects from you, to go THIS HARD, to be THIS CHALLENGING.

Survey program: "No one can choose who they are in this world"

Susie Deltarune:

ETA: Watching someone else play Chapter 4, I'm even more convinced, because Gerson (following the Hammer of Justice battle) does say "they called you a hero... whatever you end up being, I sure it'll be tremendous." And like... BRO??? BRO???? Then he even says that, of the Dragon Blazers characters, she would be the Dragon. That may be badass but... uhhhhhh.... sounds bad!

[therustedcat]

my personal theory about the soul and the prophecy + extra yapping

The role of the Soul in Deltarune is very interesting, but I think the fandom has a very black and white view of its (our) role in the narrative. Sure, it's capable of evil, but I don't think that was ever supposed to be the point, or even the reason Kris treats it the way they do. Like a tool, almost, for sealing fountains and even killing a titan, but something that must be prevented from understanding what is going on. Why would that be? I think Chapter 4 reveals this almost in its entirety. The first hero is a 'cage'. Not a 'puppet' or a 'vessel', but a 'cage'. Kris dislikes the soul being in control and directing their actions, but they keep it around despite not seeming to need the soul to move and act like normal. They even take it out to sleep, which implies that they could keep it out for far longer than we see them do it in game. They're even capable of defying what the soul wants them to do, no matter how much it pushes. The sequence in Noelle's house is, I think, meant to show that we are not and have never truly been in control. Outside of Kris's body, the Soul is utterly helpless and can do nothing. Your only means of resistance is hiding or trying to alert Susie and Noelle so they can do something. Deltarune seems to be asking "what if it was the PLAYER who had no agency in a videogame, rather than the characters?" and the normal route is an exploration of that hypothetical. So what about the prophecy? Why does Kris use THIS soul, rather than their own? Susie mentions the Soul for the first time after her and Kris defeat the Titan. Then she runs off, reads the prophecy's outcome, and shatters it. What did she see that would make her so viscerally upset? What would make her specifically say to Ralsei "YOU would never let that happen?" Is it possible that the reason Ralsei is always so unfailingly kind to Kris, even when they do the same things Susie does in chapter one, because of his foreknowledge? The way he acts, the way he praises them even for small things, are all comforting actions, aren't they? Like you'd do for someone whose days are numbered. It's possible that the ultimate tragedy of the prophecy is that Kris, bearing a human soul, is meant to sacrifice it to save the world with its power. But now, alongside the Knight, Kris seems to be trying to subvert the prophecy. What if that is the reason they are keeping you around - but also in the dark? To fulfill the prophecy in their place? Maybe that's why they indulge you to a certain extent, even when it confuses them or goes against their wishes (like opening the door in church at the end of chapter 4 or stopping you from being cruel to Ralsei).

Snowgrave is, I think, one of those things that throws this for a loop. But not by much. How are you 'supposed' to find out about Snowgrave? In chapter three. The S-rank door hints at how to find the forbidden path. And you can only proceed down it by going back to chapter two. But, generally, most people would keep that info for later, after they've finished the game. Deltarune is episodic, but the fact that chapter three tells you how to discover Snowgrave despite the entire internet knowing at this point I think shows the original intention of how the story was told. You would play through the game 'normally', maybe one more time to get what you might have missed (superbosses, side conversations) and in doing so you might also find Snowgrave. A potential way to avert YOUR fate at the end of the normal route. But this time around, Kris isn't your 'cage' anymore. You're stronger on the forbidden path. You can do things you simply can't on the normal route. You can force Noelle to bypass the puzzles. You can make her cast a spell she 'doesn't know' and kill her friend. Kris cannot disobey you even when they have previously. You can FORCE your way back into their body, against their will, and make them do what you want. I think the trash can beatdown in chapter 4's Snowgrave scene isn't just anger. It's also fear, because, even though you have controlled them before, you shouldn't be able to do what you have done in the weird route. Ripping the soul out is Kris's way of regaining control completely, and you showed them that even THAT isn't a guarantee anymore; that you can return whenever you want.

Perhaps it's easier to treat the world of Deltarune and its characters so callously here because, unlike Undertale, you aren't pursuing the forbidden path out of mere curiosity. The Soul is meant to be a sacrifice. Coming back and pursuing the weird route is almost... revenge. So it doesn't matter how cruel you are, does it? (also Ralsei is sooooooooooooo trans fem it's insane but i needmore screencaps to make that post)

[patchwork-crow-writes]

Yesterday I wrote this post espousing that all of Ralsei's more "suspicious" or "mysterious" moments can be explained by the fact that he's being dragged around by Deltarune's narrative like a chew toy, in a similar way to how Kris is being dragged around by us players. I used this to explain how he could have gotten to the Cyber World, or why he revealed information about the Roaring at the exact moment he did.

But I didn't have a convincing way to use this to explain why he acts the way he does in the post-Spamton NEO fight. Until now.

For those who need a refresher - after you beat Spamton NEO, Susie stops the party and tried to draw attention to how weird the entire ordeal was. Kris is very clearly shaken and distraught, and we have an option to let them voice that distress. In response, Ralsei tells them not to worry about it, it meant nothing, and to think about nice things instead until they feel better. Which, while this seems like a sweet thing to do on the surface, many people have interpreted this as Ralsei trying to keep everything running smoothly, to downplay all the implications of what Spamton said and was trying to achieve for himself, and in doing so disregarding Kris's mental state and trying to fob them off with hollow platitudes.

Where people have made the mistake, I feel, is that Ralsei is doing this because he's trying to keep this information hidden from Kris, or because he doesn't actually care about their feelings and is only interested in serving the prophecy or the narrative. But actually, I think he probably didn't have much of a choice except to respond in the way he does.

Consider Ralsei's position for a moment. He has waited all by himself in the dark for his entire life, in service of a prophecy and the heroes it speaks of, chained figuratively - and perhaps even literally - to the game's narrative structure. Restore the balance of light and dark, save the world, don't ask questions. He has known no other structure, no other way of being. Perhaps he has privately lamented this fate, perhaps he feels that he is trapped and has no real influence... it makes no difference. He cannot break free of the narrative's yoke.

We can infer that Ralsei knows about the player, because he has conversations with Kris while we're distracted with Susie's antics. He knows that Kris is in a very similar situation to him. I'm willing to bet he also knows that making statements like "I understand what you're going through" or "We'll find a way to fix this" right in front of us, at that exact moment in time, would absolutely NOT help the situation, no matter how comforting Kris might find it.

Because not only does Ralsei not currently have the means to help liberate Kris from their strings - he cannot even liberate HIMSELF right now - and not only would it be even more of a meaningless gesture than a simple offer of cake or hugs as a result - but to draw attention to those strings in the first place would be an extremely dangerous thing to do, because then the players would KNOW that he's working to free them from our influence. And the Narrative would know, too. He cannot afford to draw too much attention to himself or the extent of what he knows at this moment in time. Not yet.

Indeed, perhaps he is banking on players seeing him as suspicious and callous, to draw attention away from the fact that he is actually very much on Kris's side and wants to help them. Remember, he has had at least one opportunity at this point to explain himself to Kris without prying eyes. There's a good chance that they know more than they're letting on, as well.

And this doesn't even take into account that Ralsei may very well be physically unable to say anything else, due to the possibility that the narrative heavily restricts what he can say or do.

Perhaps I am giving the fluffy boy too much credit here, I don't know. But it's fascinating to consider, nonetheless.

[icedragonlizard]

I've mentioned about this before, but I think the Kirby fandom has over-sanitized Taranza to a ridiculous degree.

Honestly? I dare say that he's been done just as dirty as Susie when it comes to how he's been treated by the fandom.

Over the years, it's been common to see people heavily soften Taranza down and make him out to be this total sweetheart after Triple Deluxe. Heck, the softening down of him doesn't even stop at post-TD, as it even happens for during the game as well. I've seen people legitimately trying to excuse his actions because "he was just following orders!!!" and I'm not even kidding when I say that I've seen people say that he did nothing wrong and that he was never a villain to begin with.

I think it should go without saying that Taranza was 100% a villain in Triple Deluxe. The guy was literally the right-hand man of a tyrant. He did bad things in Sectonia's name. That he was infatuated to her and is upset about her death doesn't excuse his actions. And whether or not Taranza redeems himself after Triple Deluxe doesn't change the fact that he was still a villain in that game.

He's a war criminal, but it's like people have been pretending that he's not. Susie is also a war criminal, but at least people have no problem admitting that. I wish they'd do the same for Taranza, too.

To be fair, I understand that HAL can easily be blamed because they've been sort of just bullying Taranza over Sectonia's death, but the fandom has absolutely NOT helped matters and instead has made the problem worse over the years. And quite frankly, I think it's been embarrassing to have seen people sand Taranza down so much.

I'm not saying that you can't feel sorry for him. I think it makes perfect sense as to why someone would want to sympathize with him, considering his lore. And I'm also not saying that you can't make him nice at all. I have no problem imagining him having a nice side. But I'm also.... not a fan of the idea of, like, completely defanging him.

Personally, I think he deserves to be flawed moral-wise even after redemption. I like the idea of making it to where he has a nice side and is in fact upset about Sectonia's death, but is also a snobby, pretentious, theatre-kid type of guy that's not afraid to do some unhinged shit from time to time. He's not immune to being a little shit alongside being a guy that has a heart for some people.

I'm generally a big fan of a "redeemed but still morally grey and can even still be a bit of an asshole" approach for many of the Dream Friends that served villainous roles throughout the Kirby games.

I make it no secret that I'm easier on Susie than some other people are, but I also make sure that she's still clearly rough around the edges even despite redeeming her. I also do this for others such as Magolor, Marx and the Mage Sisters, and I don't make Taranza an exception when it comes to this. To be clear, I have him being nicer than the other characters that I just listed here, but even he still has his rough edges and I'm not one to defang him completely.

Triple Deluxe literally shows Taranza being an arrogant, smug little shit that even loved playing the villain. Now, I can see how Sectonia's death certainly damaged his ego and how he'd be somewhat softer than before, but what if he were to eventually regrow his ego over time after he's able to start moving on? I dunno, I just feel like letting him continue to have silliness in him.

People are free to headcanon what they want in Kirby, as it's an open franchise. And I won't lie, I've seen great Taranza content with him just being a total nice guy. But I'm also... not a fan of how overly babied he's been, and comparing how he's been treated vs. how a certain other character has been treated shows some rather blatant double standards.

Taranza and Susie both deserve better than how the Kirby fandom has treated them at large. I've talked about the disproportionate Susie discourse before, but in my opinion the over-woobification of Taranza has been just as frustrating.

Both characters have been done really dirty in different ways.

[demphix]

hhi please talk about this ... you get me i think

Hi sorry this took so long I got my brain rewired and hijacked by Ceroba again. Anyways. Ralsei. That fuckin freak goat

Where do I even start? I could go the route of his design and how inconsistently he (and uniquely him as opposed to a more wide-spread lack of consistency) is portrayed both in and out of game and why I find that interesting, but I should probably do that separately.

Because I'm really here to ramble about him as a character, and what sides of him tend to be forgotten and ignored.

Most of the fandom that I've seen sorta reduces Ralsei down to what he is on the surface, a walking plushie who wants to make everyone happy, and while I understand WHY it's so common, it leaves me really unsatisfied with how he's presented in the fandom. He's more than that, he's not just the toy he tries to act as.

And I emphasize the "act as" there, because it's important to note how often he does this. He (and the game) gives you a million offers to hug him, if not that he'll talk about baking a cake for you, or you'll get to call him cute, ect.. Little acts of comfort he'll lean on a lot. On top of that, he'll always encourage you and Susie to be pacifists in Chapter 1 no matter what you do. Keep this in mind.

The next thing I wanna mention is his whole deal with "purpose." He's introduced by reading off a prophecy to you, and his whole conflict with Susie in Chapter 1 is trying to get her to be a hero with him and Kris for the sake of said prophecy. Later on he states that Darkners exist to serve Lightners and make them happy, and adds that it's supposedly the only way they can feel fulfilled. In Chapter 2, he objects to learning S-ACT and R-ACT because that's supposed to be Kris's special talent. There's probably more examples I'm blanking on at the moment, but those stick out to me the most here.

On top of all that, he really lets you walk all over him (sometimes literally). You mentioned before how he goes "If you want to hit me, that's okay, too!" and like. Yeah that's kind of the perfect summary of it he really did just Say That. What's wrong with you goatboy why are you like that???

Expanding on that more, despite encouraging pacifism he's perfectly compliant in letting you attack everyone and making him do it too; yet he still snaps (or as close as he can get to snapping right now) at Susie for doing the exact same thing. It's weird. He's fine when Kris does it, but when Susie does it's a problem? Why? He even suggests fighting as a way to get stronger in Chapter 2 (though I suppose that is at least after him being nice to King backfired on everyone).

It all fascinates me. It feels like he's trying to stick to a script while also letting you completely disregard it. He wants to be cute and lovable and wants to bring people comfort, but the only way he ever tries to comfort others is through hugs and baking or giving them a nice spot in his castle. Ironically for his thing with ACTing, he doesn't really "talk" about issues often.

Which leads me to his identity, Kris, the Player, and the way those may intersect.

Let's start off with Kris and the Player. A lot of what Ralsei gives you leeway on really feels like stuff for the player's enjoyment. He'll let you do things he doesn't want Susie to (fighting in Chapter 1, choosing who goes with who, ACTing, ect..) and use him for it when needed. He's famously VERY quick to disregard any meaning Spamton NEO's fight could have had and (again) relies on using himself as a plushie or making some cake or whatever to comfort Kris instead (which doesn't even work). I also like to note how he responds to any negative or silent choices from you in the Acid Tunnel of Love scene. He turns away from the camera (away from the player before turning opposite to Kris) in the first choice before going "ahahaha just kidding!! sarcasm!!! haaahhahahahaha!!!!, and in the second he fumbles on his words and tries to pass it off as "you-like" to be silent.

He also pans us over to Susie's POV in both chapters, and with the "So that's why..." at the end of both, it feels like he was trying to explain something to Kris during it??? Additionally: Weird Route. Do you remember the 1 in 20 chance he stares at the camera during the scene where he should be panning us over to Susie's POV? He just looks right at us. It has a unique sprite but it's disguised in name and appearance to look like an in-between frame from his dance animation at the start of Chapter 2. What the fuck does that mean. Huh. Why.

Oh also the him blushing easter-egg only happens when he and Kris's sprites overlap to a point where he'd be touching the sprite of the soul when made visible. Which sure is something I think

So like. Bro knows about us right . Am I crazy I think he knows. I feel like he's too focused on following the prophecy and being liked by us to not right?? Bro wants to play the role he was given in his script even if its uncomfortable or painful and panics when it doesn't go how it should too often right am I stupid or am I on to something please help me

Ok fuckin. Last bit. I'm gonna try to be quick I am tired.

Why He Goat

He resembles Kris's family, his name is an anagram of Asriel, you know the drill. I'm not so concerned with the "why" of that (I think he's the horned headband Kris wore as a kid, and his resemblance to the Boss Monsters is reflective of how that item represents Kris wanting to resemble their family), I wanna see how that ties into his identity. He states he doesn't know what being "ralsei-like" even means, and. Yeah that's probably adding a lot to it. It's also probably making how affectionate he tries to be very uncomfortable for Kris (almost like he's going despite that because they weren't originally who he was being this way towards Ooo Vessel Allusion Ooo).

I don't know how to wrap this up uhhh

I think Ralsei is more than the uwu babygirl fluffball this fandom makes him, he's a character with depth. He puts on a persona to be perfect for the player because that's his "purpose." It's his role in the story to teach you and do whatever you want while keeping the plot moving as it should. He cares, but he doesn't know how to comfort because he doesn't know how any of this works (like how he talks about friendship in the Acid Tunnel).

He tries to be perfect, but deep down he's still just. The lonely prince the prophecy needs.

[alevicke]

Killers x GN!Reader with acne & low self esteem

-----

Reader has acne problems despite being an adult. Has some self esteem issues due to this. But your fave couldn't even care. What they love you for goes beyond that

Anna (The Huntress), Adiris (The Plague), Susie (The Legion) Pyramid Head (The executioner)

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TW: Obviously acne mention, depression. Please understand this is pretty self indulgent. I know what it is to go through this, it hurts but you aren't alone

Also, I have no beta reader nor anything, sorry if it’s not good!

-----

ANNA (THE HUNTRESS)

She is genuinely confused by your worries.

She actually doesn't really understand what's acne. In fact, she doesn't even believe it's something bad.

I mean, she faced puberty which is when she had more acne but... She wasn't around other humans or people to point it out or make her feel embarrassed of that. She was more concerned about hunting and surviving in the forest

Thing is... She actually has a lot of acne nowadays. She doesn't take care of her skin at all, only of wounds, and doesn't clean her face unless you really tell her to do it and... All that dust and dirt in her skin makes her have some acne issues

It's not like she really cares, she even has scars because she scratches them

She doesn't know she supposes to let them be

And, you know what? SCARS ARE COOL

In her eyes, she believes those are cool and are similar to freckles

To her eyes, you're the most beautiful person she has ever met. She loves every single thing of you, every single part and every single inch

Then, why would she dislike something you and she have in common?

You could try to explain it to her but... It just doesn't click on her. It's natural, it's human, it's lovable

She loves you the way you are

Still, her way of showing you love is basically keeping you in her arms for as long as possible. You know she’s clingy

She will kiss you the whole time, even more than normally. Expect to have slight bruises in your face from how many times she presses her face against yours (joking)

Oh, and she will huge you like a teddy bear. You’ll basically be carried like like a baby 24/7 until you smile and trust her words

She loves you <3

ADIRIS (THE PLAGUE)

Well, sadly, when it comes to insecurities, Adiris can be the queen

She 100% understands you and will be by your side. She's the sweetest person in the world when it come to these topics

She's soft with every single word. Gentle. She doesn't want to say anything that could upset you

But she wants you to know that she's there for you and she loves you

She understand your securities though

And you know she does

It doesn't matter how many times you tell her you love her. It doesn't matter how many times you tell how much you find her beautiful. And it doesn't matter how many times you kiss her

She's still scared

But bit by bit, she's learning and realizing that it's true and you see more than her scars, than her sickness and her wounds. You see more than her weaknesses. You see past what everyone finds disgusting

You see a soul, a loving woman who cherishes you with her whole heart and it aches her to see you suffer and struggle

But she's there for every second you feel insecure. And for every mean comment you say she will kiss you two times to prove you wrong

There is nothing you can say that can change her mind

But, truth being said, sometimes, you just want to let your feelings out... And for those times, she's there as well

English is not her native language but she's been in the realm for long enough for both of you to understand and communicate and when you need to talk, you know she's there

You can let every insecurity you have out and she's going to be there for you

She will stay quiet and hug you for all you want and reassure you that she's there for you

SUSIE (THE LEGION)

Although she had her skin issues when she was adolescent, she has perfect skin now

Well, one or two pimples when her period comes because hormones are a bitch and she hates it

But not because of the acne, it's just that she gets annoyed by all the blood she didn't ask for and dealing with it

Other than that she's always pretty happy around

That's until you decide to talk to her and tell her your insecurities...

Much like Adiris, it pains her to see you struggling for your self esteem and your appearance and wants to cheer you up by being by your side

She loves you the way you are and she hates you cannot see what she sees. She really wishes she could make you see through her eyes the beauty she sees in you

She's extremely worried especially when you talk about using a mask

At first, she thought it would be cute both of you use masks and didn't think too much into it

Until she realized that your reason behind it was to cover your face due to how embarrassed you felt

She could feel her heart break into pieces discovering that and she didn't want you to use a mask. Fck being tweenies with masks, she wants to see your beautiful face

(Although she hates seeing your face when you're suffering in trials when you both have to fight. Stupid Entity)

She won’t stop you if you really really want to use a mask, but she will strongly discourage it and would like you to take it off as soon as you both are together

After all, she wants to be able to caress your cheek without any problem, to kiss you and smush her face against you without anything interrupting or getting in the middle

She’s not really good when it comes to conversations so she’s most likely going to try to cheer you up with different things when you are feeling bad

Videogames, snacks, snuggling, even annoying Frank and pranking him if that could make you smile

You have been with Susie for long enough to be accepted into Legion so… Yeah, Julie and Joey are most likely going to help you

After everything, all she cares about is making you happy and smile

PYRAMID HEAD (THE EXECUTIONER)

Pyramid Head already has problems understanding human feelings and issues. He cannot even talk and communicate properly which has been a problem in your relationship several times. But you both can work it out

When you’re feeling sad, he doesn’t really understand what’s going on at first

He goes through all points that make sense in his mind first

Did someone hurt you? A bad trial? Did Danny bother you again taking photos without your permission? Did another survivor use you as a sandbag or tea bagged you while hooked?

Whatever it was, he was ready to get his hands dirty (and full of blood)

What he didn’t expect was to hear you say you felt bad about your appearance, about yourself

What do you even mean? He likes you the way you are. How come you don’t see it as well? He didn’t fall in love with others, he isn’t attracted to others, he’s surprised he cannot see your beauty as he does

And just for a few red marks and little wounds? He gets HUGE scars and wounds in trials. And he never thought they could be bothering besides the danger aspect which doesn’t really matter under Entity’s protection

But in all honesty, if it’s something that’s bothering you or making you feel bad, he is worried and wants to help you

He still doesn’t know and needs some guidance about how to help you though

He’ll try his own way of cheering you up. Most of them can include a bit of brutality though, like; Beating up whatever killer even dares to touch you in any trial, making a survivor chug their flashlight if they even dare to abandon you and similar stuff

He will also bring more gifts. Not the best, like dead flowers, but come on, he’s trying to cheer you up. And in his realm there aren’t many good things to pick from. Unless you want a broken student’s chair

He’ll make sure to pick you up and hug you way more often and while he cannot kiss you he’ll be gently cupping your cheek and softly caressing your lips with his thumb, as a sign that if he could he would really love to kiss you

[eb-the-gamer]

THOUGHTS ON CHARACTERS: TORIEL!

UNDERTALE AND DELTARUNE SPOILERS.

So...my thoughts on Toriel...are quite mixed I must say. But over all I think the character is toxic towards Asgore in a way I dislike, by design

Don't misunderstand, I think her being unfair is kind of a point. There's a difference in feeling that way because it's what is intended vs. Not actively having a point/unintentionally writing something badly. I like her a ton, but the way some of the fans talk about her makes it seem like she could do no wrong and is completely justified, when...that doesn't feel like it's the case for me

While in Undertale I can...kinda forgive her and see where she's coming from (on top of the motherly behavior), it's implied/explained that if Asgore stuck to his guns one way or another she would have stayed. Thing is though, that's still being complacent in KILLING HUMANS, and judging by the pattern, CHILDREN - either of which she would be VERY much against after the whole situation with Chara and Asriel's passing. I get the distinct impression she'd probably be put off and disgusted and abandon the kingdom no matter what path was taken. There was literally no way Asgore could win in this scenario, and part of why he's wishy washy is because he KNOWS this, but is too soft-spoken and nice to really argue.

But the thing also is that he DOES go through with it when the time comes with his fight, going as far as breaking the ACT button, so she was kinda mad at him being indecisive for nothing, even when they all get out in the best ending. On top of that, she didn't HAVE to stay in the ruins and not show up until the end, it's easier for her to stay there until she hears the Child is actually at the castle, and she never responds when you call her after the ruins.

Deltarune though....oh BOY does it a make a point to make you see her flaws. Feels like there's some favoritism at play with Asriel, and him leaving has her kinda be much more overcompensating towards Kris despite being at least a pre teen by this point (holding his hand walking into the school, for example). Thing is here, Asgore is just running a failing flower shop and living there after being kicked out. And if the two of them were arguing back and forth, there must be something that actually upset HIM that he disagreed with Toriel over enough to actually take something of a stand for himself. The first couple of chapters, you could play it off as "Oh they were on the rocks in Untertale, so they're on the rocks and estranged here too." But then Chapter 4 kinda throws that notion out of whak.

And it smartly uses Susie as the surrogate for this. She puts Toriel in high regard as a perfect mom, doesn't want to get her upset (even before the bulk of Chapter 1), etc. And she is worried when Chapter 4 comes along and the implication she is in danger in the Dark World is the main reasoning for going in there aside from sealing the fountain.

But then you don't find her, and it's revealed she apparently snapped in some way, to the point of not letting anyone know she canceled her plans and was spending the majority of the chapter drinking and partying with Sans. Such a lighthearted moment comes with a layered gut punch that you were worried for her and fought for your life, and Susie and Kris are both put off by how non-chalant and casual her behavior is. It's not fully her fault (nor anyone else's), mind; she probably was overwhelmed, Sans offered to hang out with her, and she canceled her plans to have some time to unwind, away from worrying.

But still, after everything Susie (alongside Kris) went through and risked, partially for her sake, they are understandably i upset and don't want to stay the night/talk to her for the moment.

The story is still ongoing, but judging by the Knight attempting to snag her, and not Asgore, she might have had something to do with that bunker - which I think Deltarune theorists will know what is theorized to be in there.

[utdrmv-confession-box]

(Warning to the mod, this confession is long)

(If it ends up being too long to be posted, I understand)

Okay, as a berdly liker i know that on first impulse his writing and how others treat him in chapter 4 feels out of character

BUT LISTEN

LISTEN TO ME

Its actually very in character

Lets go through every scene berdly is mentioned in or seen in order

First thing: when noelle asks if she should invite Berdly susie replies "hell no" (or something to that effect, sorry i wont be refrencing lines of dialouge exactly, i dont have the energy to comb through a 10 hour playthough rn)

This is for 2 reasons:

1) Since berdly thinks the dark world is a dream, susie assumes that he would have gone back to disliking her. But you might say "didn’t berdly say at the end of chapter 2 that he and noelle could try and study with susie and kris." Well, that's where reason 2 comes in

2) susie's plan is to go into the holidays house and distract noelle while kris goes snooping. Having berdly around would interfere with this plan

Anyway, next scene

We go to the library and berdly starts going on on this little mocking tirade about how suprised he is to see kris and susie there, only for susie to cut him off and say theyre going to leave since he dislikes them and wants to be alone so much.

Berdly is taken off guard, and before going, "Oh yeah alone. I love. Being alone. Mhm. Alone" (again, not a direct quote. it's only been a week. i haven't memorised the dialogue yet, cut me some slack)

Here's whats intresting about this interaction

1) berdly mocking way of speech is how he seemingly speaks to others a lot. Noelle lets it slide, and it doesn't deter kris from interacting with him since they mess with in return. So when he speaks with susie, he takes the same tone

2) but susie doesnt know berdly that well, and she's preconditioned to assume that people dont want her around, so when she is met with bedly speaking so rudely to her she justifiably assumes he has gone back to disliking her, and wants to leave

3) but berdly is again not used to someone calling him out for speaking like that, and he also has a big ass ego, so while he is taken aback his ego wont let him admit he didnt mean it in a hurtful way so he doubles down

4) berdly is uncomfortable with the idea of being alone

In Berdly's attempt to talk to susie the way he usually does to his friends, he has only alienated her, because lets be honest , he probably should not be talking like that with noelle and kris.

Next scene is when berdly calls noelle to ask her out to the festival, before susie steps in to shut that down

Now, if you liked berdly, you might be confused, didn’t berdly say in chapter 2 that he didnt like noelle romantically? And only pretended to because he assumed she had a crush on him?

Yes

BUT

And this is an important but.

Berdly is afraid of being alone, so much so that he's willing to enter a romantic relationship with someone he doesn't have feelings for, to prevent becoming alone.

(Berdly stop it with this amanormative thinking and reincarnate into a lotus flower)

ALSO this is important

But

It's important to me that in chapter 4, when Asgore's misogyny is at its worst, so is Berdly's. Like yeah Berdly isn't quite at Asgore's level of shitty, but he very much could be in an alternate timeline where him and noelle entered into a lovless marriage only for her to divorce him after a midlife lesbian awakening.

Which is why it's crucial for Susie to snip it in the bud (yet again, Susie prevents several horrors from happening by simply existing) by refusing to let him walk over Noelle.

Next is the scene where we can pick the phone. We all seen it by now, so i won't recount it in great detail, but berdly calls susie yandere before back peddling and saying she must be lonely before trying to ask her out before we interrupt

1) berdly calling susie a yandere is very similar to him calling noelle a damsel in chapter 2. He is shown having a tendency to reduce the girls in his life to romantic archytypes I know queen said that there is nothing wrong with him BUT berdly thinks a lot about romance (because he thinks its a solution to his loneliness, rather than recognising that his manner of speech and behaviour is what has led him to becoming so alienated from others) and a lot of romantic tropes in fiction (which we know berdly likes, he plays dating sims as he refrences in chapter 2) are steeped in a lot of sexist and misoginistic ideas. Even if berdly is not consciously sexist, he likely has consumed a lot of sexist ideas through the media he likes, and this reflects in his speech.

2) he then tries to relate to susie by saying she must be lonely. And while she has been for a long time, this isn't him recognising that but rather projecting his own feelings on her and making assumptions, berdly is shit at reading people's feelings we all know this

3) Then he tries to ask her out because AGAIN berdly thinks romance is the only solution to loneliness

Berdly is a flawed person, and one of his biggest flaw (aside from his superiority inferiority complex) is his obsession with romance, an obsession that leads him to express misoginistic ideas without him understanding it, it doesnt make him irredeemable, but it is a flaw

Truly the most teenage boy ever

Also then you can ask berdly out or sing the wrong number song. Either way, berdly makes a comment about how kris has or will fall for him.

I think it's part of the coming age narractive (since deltarune is a coming of age story), berdly is trying to grow up, and his mind he can't stay friends with noelle or kris, and a friendhsip with susie is not an option. Eventually, they will drift into relationships, and he'll end up alone.

To prevent ending up alone, and in the process of growing up, one of those friendships has to gratuate into a romantic relationship. At least, this is what I propose his way of thinking is.

Despite pursuing romance in an effort to grow up, his view on romance is painfully childish and steeped in fictional tropes.

Anyway onto miscellaneous

When ralsei asks who kris will take to the festival, if you select berdly, kris will repeat his name with increased volume

I think its less that kris hates berdly (we have seen how they act around people they hate/dislike (bratty and pizzapants), its with avoidance) but rather a mixture of bafflement and really wanting to go with susie.

When you answer susie in chapter two about who you wanna go with, they answer confusedly if you pick noelle or ralsei, and they very obvious baffled tone at us picking berdly in chapter 3 is probably a sign that kris thinks its very obvious who they want to go with (that being susie) and being baffled at us picking berdly.

Also, despite them at least liking to play games with him, that doesn't mean they want to take him out to the festival. Aka just cuz they like him platonically doesn't mean they want to engage of the very romantically coded action of taking him to the festival.

Im sorry guys, you can like kerdly/krispy chicken but that doesnt mean kris themselves likes it. They're better as gaming rivals.

(Which I would have been using as evidence for my aromantic kris headcanon, but with how much kris, the typically blank faced protagonist they are, blushes around susie, I worry such a reading might not be as strong as it used to be.)

If you visit berdly after chapter 2 in a route where he broke his arm, susie is obviously a lil upset after you exit the room, lamenting over how they didn't heal him. Even contemplating over bringing him into a dark world for a second before deciding that keeping the dark worlds a secret is more important, but she still hopes he gets better.

Susie doesnt hate berdly she just doesnt tolerate him speaking to her the way he usually speaks to everyone and honestly that's for the better, that bird needs to have someone tell him to can it sometimes and to understand that hes being rude.

And for the weird route? Just watch the scene where kris visits the hospital. Kris doesnt hate berdly. They might not be buddy buddy but we know they play games together, and they have been shown to prank him, a thing they do to people they like (like noelle)

With people they dislike they tend to avoid them, like they do with bratty which they do seem to outright dislike likely for taking advantage of them when they were younger for asking them ti bring over food if they want it hang out with the big kids, with one of the dialouge options being telling her to go away. Or pizzapants whom they have very limited dialouge options, with chapter 2's being "leave" or "lie and say you want to hear more" if I'm pretty sure. Kris doesnt seem to stick around people they outright dislike unless they have to.

That's not to say they don't chafe up against berdly or have problems with him they definitely do (eg. trying to get berdly to stand next to the hospital window so rudy can throw things at him), but it's more complicated than simple dislike/hate.

In conclusion:

A lot of chapter 4 feels like a remind to us about how flawed some of the lightners are, and berdly is no exception

Anyway, thanks for listening to my tedtalk

Posting this first just because it’s so long.

[reverssentiment]

thanks for answering my last ask! Do you have any thoughts about the December puzzle scene I have lots of thoughts about it but i realized it is genuinely an underrated scene and rarely see any discussion of it

Honestly, I think it says less about Dess herself than it does about the nature of the Dark Worlds and Noelle's particular issues.

On a first run, it's not totally clear why we're spelling DECEMBER to switch off a puzzle gate. But when we get Berdly's flashback, in context, we can see that Noelle was asked to spell DECEMBER as a little girl, and froze up – presumably because, you know, something terrible happened to/involving her sister – and that Berdly doesn't realize that (because otherwise he probably wouldn't be bragging about beating his traumatized best friend at a spelling bee).

In the Dark World, though, with her childhood friend by her side (albeit one she's been distant from) and surrounded by the city lights she dreamed of, Noelle can spell DECEMBER no problem, and recognize her nostalgia, her pain, how her good memories mix with the bad, and how she can still live the dream Dess promised her even if Dess isn't here any more.

This is why I don't think Dark Worlds are best understood as purely escapist romps. Cyber World is like therapy for Noelle and Berdly – it uses familiar imagery to help them confront fraught emotional issues, and unless you really screw up it's harmless and low-stakes. It's really the same thing with Susie, whose presumable abandonment issues are reflected in King (Quiet people piss me off is to drive home that he's kind of a shadow-archetype of her), and who gets railroaded into scenarios that drive her to stop lashing out.

"Why aren't the Dark Worlds helping Kris?" you might ask. Well, Kris's problems are esoteric, complicated and off-putting, and they're reticent about letting us understand what those problems are, so – like some bad therapists – the Dark World just kind of tells them "alright, so you can never have the freedom you want without going Insane, a non-pathologized condition I definitely won't restrict your freedoms for having. You won't be treated like a pariah at all, or be involuntarily committed to Carousel Jail / the Trash Zone. Have you considered destroying yourself to become useful to the people I can still save?"

[abandoned-quiche]

Oh hey I got a good one

Rank ut/dr characters by if they pour milk or cereal first

alphys: milk first. she vehemently defends this decision against everyone who says it's the wrong way. also, she exclusively eats cereal from like, those japanese snack loot box services that send you foods from japan.

papyrus: milk ONLY. cereal is "A SUGARY CONFECTIONARY TREAT THAT HAS NO RIGHT TO BE CALLED A BREAKFAST." meanwhile milk is full of strong bones. when it comes to breakfast he prefers oatmeal

papyrus is right btw most cereals have no right to be called a breakfast. anyway

sans: you do NOT want to know how this man eats his cereal but i'm going to tell you anyway. he pours orange juice into a bowl, pours chips ahoy cookies into it, and mashes it together until it is an orange chocolate cookie sludge with little chunks of solid cookie in there. and then he eats it with a spoon. he has to eat breakfast in a separate room because of it. as punishment and because nobody wants to see that. he always "accidentally" walks into the room everybody else is in anyway eating his "cereal" because he "thought of a joke" or something. they hate it so much. he loves it

undyne: doesn't eat cereal because itll rot her awesome sharp fish teeth, but she knows alphys is doing it the wrong way

napstablook: they always have to use a very small amount of milk in their cereal because their tears fall into the bowl, watering down the milk, making their cereal soggy, and increasing the amount of liquid by a lot, which would cause it to overflow and spill, causing them to cry more because god why

mettaton: cereal-in-the-shape-of-mettaton's-face after milk-in-the-shape-of-mettaton's-face. by the way, every item of food merchandise he sells is available as ghost food as well. he's one of the staples of a ghost's diet on the surface because of this, as there aren't many ghost foods available. in the underground ghost produce was a lot easier to come by but on the surface they now make up an even smaller portion of the porpulation than they already did so it's tough to come by. thanks mettaton!

mew mew: hates mettaton for the way he does his cereal, but honestly, she would hate it no matter how he did it. eats mew mew cereal. cereal before milk

toriel: doesn't encourage eating cereal because it tends to be unhealthy, but occasionally takes a cheat day. milk before cereal. doesn't understand why there's a debate about this. as far as she's concerned the only wrong way to eat cereal is sans's way

asgore: milk before cereal. would let the children have cereal as a treat sometimes if toriel wasn't around. "our secret".

flowey & chara: absolute snobs about this. HATE anyone who does milk before cereal. not literally of course.

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susie: milk first, because she's not the one who pours the milk.

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thanks for the ask! :D

[legandairy-horror]

Headcannons about how the Lightner crew show affection for each other because I can't stop imagining these dorks as the world's most confusing and disastrous polycule

Kris

Feral animal in all things, including relationships. Is very particular when it comes to physical touch and other displays of affection. Instead they give out cool rocks and other shiny things to people they like/care. Has had a crush on every person in their class at one point or another and simultaneously refuses to acknowledge it and refuses to move on. Subconsciously uses their pranking and general weirdness as an excuse to get closer to people without having to admit that they like being around them

Susie

That one "Excuse me, they asked for no pickles" meme. Is willing to commit any crime for the people they care about. Absolutely refuses to acknowledge the fact that they have feelings for anyone even after going out on several dates with them. Not helped by poor self-worth issues making he doubt anyone actually liking her let alone romantic feelings. Deeply infatuated with Noelle, strong feelings for Kris. Complicated for Catti (started out real rough but thinks dark magic is sick as fuck)

Noelle

Lesbiab. Lasbein. Girls. Has such a low self-image of herself and tries so unbelievable hard to hide how weird she is that she just does not realize that every girl in class has been actively trying to date her and just assumes that they're all being nice. Not helped by some lingering Heteronormativity makes her just default to "Ah yes, boys and girls date, that's how that works".

Berdly

I cannot emphasize just how performative he views relationship. Raised on a healthy diet of Heteronormativity and Societal expectations he understands every relationship through that lens. "Of course the guy and girl get together in the end, that's just 'how it works'". Except it's not how it works, because people are often a lot more then what society expects from them. And he just never realized that there might be other options, that love isn't this destined thing that everyone one day accepts like fucking ex-caliber. That he doesn't have to do this if we doesn't want to. That he can just be friends with people instead of having to worry about all this forced bullshit. Yes I am head-cannoning Berdly as closeted aro/ace and there is nothing you can do to stop me.

Catti

Developed a crush on Kris & Noelle while she was teaching them both magic and never fully got over it. Also had somewhat of a friendship while they were younger and thus unjustly blames herself for not doing more to help them after Dess's disappearance and Kris's Possession. Combined with typical teen angst of "My parents are humiliating me by their mere existence." and she's developed a very distant and detached form of love. a very "I'm fine sacrificing my happiness if it means they keep their happiness" kinda mentality. Reason she doesn't get along with Susie at first is because she subconsciously projects a lot of her own anxieties and fear onto her leading to a lot of hostility at first.

Jockington

Token straight and is thus the only remotely competent person here. Serves as the supportive rock for everyone and especially Catti. The first and mostly likely person on the team to suggest the completely reasonable advice of "have you tried talking to them?" and "you're probably overthinking this". It's part of why Catti fell in love with him, because he's the only one here who would willing and readily admit that he cares for someone.

Bonus Monster Kid & Snowy meme (not at all serious)

"Have you ever been walking down the street with your best bro and while you're walking you accidentally touch hands? You think to yourself - That was weird, but I'm not gay. - You are, you are gay". Source

[moraloreldeservedbetter]

Little late to the party as always but I'm here for the father's day prompt.

Geez… The fathers of Moral Orel….

First of all, I agree that I want to see Karl's character expanded.  I mean, he's a really bad father, but mostly I want to know why he's a father.  Why did Karl and Kim decide to have Doughy?  Was it an accident and they carried to term, took care of him for a while, then abandoned him because it would lead to less judgment than not keeping the baby would have?  Or did they have Doughy on purpose because it's the logical next step after getting married, and all the cutest couple have a baby because babies are cute, and then they realized that a child was a lifelong commitment and a responsibility they didn't want, so as soon as he was out of that cute baby phase and didn't make them look like an adorable couple with something helpless to nurture, they pushed him to the side?  Karl certainly doesn't like him in the house, so maybe he liked the idea of a baby before he realized a baby demands a lot of attention from its mother and he got jealous and angry and kicked him out as soon as he could?  Idk, but it's a question I would love to see answered.

Another father in the show that I think is super underrated is Sal Figurelli.  He has two kids, his wife ran out on him once, and he's part of the only black family in Moralton.  And yeah, the Figurelli's are the focus of God's Image, but it's not actually about them.  It's a criticism of using religion as an excuse to be racist, which is a good message, but I think it raises more questions than it does answers.  We know Mr. Figurelli is a hard worker and business owner who doesn't let things get to him despite the odds the town throws at him, but we don't know what his relationship is with his children beyond 'they work with him sometimes' and 'Billy trusts him enough to run to him when Susie hits him', but their mom wasn't home when that happened so who knows who he chooses when the opportunity arises.

I also wish we had seen more of Tommy's family in general, especially his dad since his mom was shown much more in "God's Blunders."  They seem to really care about their son, they're just so mired in the dogma of Moralton to actually put that love into action.  And Tommy being so smart and curious makes me wonder if his dad used to bring him home books because he asked for them.  I can really see Tommy's parents getting him the science books he asks for to make him happy, even if they think his IQ is too low to actually understand what he's reading (even though that couldn't be further from the truth).  Idk, I know the Littlers aren't the best parents to Tommy, but given the other parents of Moralton, they actually seem like some of the good ones.  I mean, they could stand to listen to their son more often, because if they did they'd realize just how brilliant he is, but at least they're willing to spend time with him and they do things to protect him when they think he might be a danger to himself.  I demand to know more about Mr. Littler.

Then, there's my obvious curiosity about Art Posabule.  If he's the Bloberta to Christina, I wonder what his brand of neglect entails.  I like to imagine that Art is largely apathetic to his family and would rather lock himself in his study and drink.  The only reason I even think Art spanks Christina the way Clay spanks Orel is because Poppet tells him to and he doesn't care enough to argue about it (my big headcanon about the Posabule household is that Poppet feels that she needs absolute control of her family, from choosing what they wear, to dictating where they go, to even wanting a lock on every door so she can control who can come in/leave rooms, and Art is a huge enabler who never says no to her because he doesn't feel the need to).

Also, Bloberta's dad.  I would say that he seemed like a good parent that was only held back by what an abusive relationship (to what extend, I don't know, but definitely emotionally), but I do think he might actually be playing favorites also.  Maybe it's out of spite; a sort of "my abuser like these children, so I'm going to choose the one she doesn't like as much" but even so, I feel like the roles would be swapped if he were the one in control instead of his wife.  He was a good dad to Bloberta, which is great!  But I feel like if he had his way, then Lunchbox and Modella would have been the miserable ones.  Maybe I'm wrong, and he would have loved them all equally, but it's hard to see, since we only see him after he's already been broken into a nervous wreck who can't even accept love from his own daughter because he's so anxious and traumatized. Kinda wonder if his choose to marry his wife was just as pressured onto him and manipulative as Bloberta was to Clay. It would be interesting because then his beloved, favorite daughter would have turned into the same monster that hurt him so much, and seeing her neglect her kids the way her mother neglected her might actually break his heart, given how much he cared for her. I'll bet he feels really sad and guilty because he couldn't get his wife to treat her better, and then Bloberta wasn't able to break the cycle. I know Bloberta is a grown woman who made those choices on her own, and there's no one to blame for her neglect towards Orel, Shapey, and Block besides herself, but I get the feeling the abuse he went through would make him think it was his fault. I just feel for the guy so much, tbh. His wife is a horrible abuser to him and Bloberta, and given the way she snapped at Modella when she thought she sang off-key, possibly all her children, and he seems to blame himself for not stepping up even though nobody, not even the viewers, knows what she might do if he does step up.

Anyway, this is far too long and SO wordy but I'm very curious about the side families in Moral Orel.  They all seem to have their own problems, so it's interesting to see fathers like Mr. Figurelli and Tommy's dad, who aren't always fantastic but do seem to genuinely love their kids.  It's a shame we didn't get to see most of them as fathers.

(Also as an extremely side note, it would have been interesting if they expanded upon Marionetta's family, since we know she has a baby sister and a dad, but we never saw her mom.  So shout out to Marionetta's dad for being the only other single father in Moralton besides Putty?)

OH MY GOD

YES

FINALLY

god this needs to be explorered more in this fandom!!