#anyways if you see someone talking about their experiences with transmisogyny using it to talk about themselves-- that's not what this's abt

[ramenheim]

About prev reblogs: I have never seen TME used to complain about & demarcate cis men's behaviours.

Despite the term ostensibly lumping together *almost any gender configuration that isn't binarily trans woman*, the only times it's used recently is to complain about (trans) ppl that get lumped in with cis women (as intersex ppl trans or otherwise are *never* factored into this dichotomy anyways), including cis women themselves.

I have never once seen it used to delineate trans women from cis men, even as it gets used to delineate cis women's experiences from trans women's experiences. I have only seen /haphazard/ acknowledgement of non-binary experiences included in TMA, but only really as an afterthought or when it's framed as the precursor to 'fully realizing trans womanhood'. I've only seen intersex folks brought up if they elect to use the terms TME/TMA for themselves, with bizarro interrogations into 'how' they were raised/had their genitals 'corrected' only once they individually disagreed with the terminology or had a confounding opinion in a public discussion.

It is regularly used to delineate trans men from trans women; but its users almost uniformly deride any attempt by trans men to coin a term to describe their own unique combinatory transphobia that isn't TME; again despite TME literally just supposing to mean 'transmisogyny-exempt'.... so why would it be used to discuss trans men's *unique* experiences with hatred directed at the fact that they either "are/aren't (real) men" by anyone who wants them to suffer?

It's been *changed* into hastily recycled AGAB terminology bc of wider recognition of the flaws with /that/ but without the driving flaws of that **tool for analysis** ever being fully addressed; and therefore has gotten subsumed into the 'new euphemism' for the Innie vs Outie false dichotomy as its usage became more widespread.

I think it still is a useful discussion tool ONLY when it's viewed *as a tool* and not some inherent marker of identity. It is DEFINITELY just bigotry when used as a NOUN that has negative behaviours ascribed to it, esp in the context of complaining about trans men** as a whole homogenized group, instead of highlighting individual behaviours/belief systems for the harm they contribute to against TMA trans/nb ppl.

Young queers really need to stop swallowing the tradcath radfem juice of "Women Pure + Good & Men Bad + Evil" [**that tumblr feminism has always had a problem with] and acting like you aren't being a transphobic shitheel by adding the word Trans in front of it-- & This is ESPECIALLY a problem when non-trans "Allies" do this, as it sets up trans women for failure whenever they make a mistake/can be reframed as 'being a cause-traitor' since women are punished more harshly for any percieved failure of Righteousness, AND allows them further to enact their unbridled transphobia onto trans men (& enbys/genderqweirdos) and pass it off as 'being an ally to trans women'..... despite them just being extremely transphobic (+ misogynistic + homphobic + intersexist) & then hiding behind """"TMAs"""" as a negative PR meatshield.

TL;DR if you are using TME to mean (nc)AFAB in vent posts, just have the guts to fucking use that as the word & see how it reads then.

(**since transmasc & transfem do not imply either a 'starting' or 'finalized' gender state; they are personal adjectives in and of themselves. Please do not warp them into new innie vs outie binary divides).

[**see related: the raw ass treatment of 'AMAB enbys' on here and in similar online/irl "feminist" environments. (Which was one of the driving factors behind the original TMA/TME coinage & is where I still find useful inter-trans discussions utilizing it as a term; importantly I don't think the term should stop being used altogether!!)]

[andragoras-in-vanity]

im convinced that people who actually want to live in cities and dont see the environmental and emotional trauma their inflicting on themselves by enabling those places to continue to grow have just the most severe brain damage

[kidrat]

having feelings about trans Gwen,,, like there's the 'superhero leading a double life' allegory for being closeted, which ppl have noted, but there's plenty I haven't seen anyone mention yet! like, the fact her dad has a trans patch in support of her means she's out.

She's a young trans *girl* (as opposed to a trans woman) living as her authentic gender in a loving home. she went to her school dance in a dress. she did ballet! which of course boys can do too, but often times when people are assigned male they don't get the chance to explore feminine hobbies. It's really lovely that someone, likely Gwen's dad, supported her enough to let her have those girly experiences and memories, whether she was living as a girl when she took dance up or as a gnc boy.

While it's subtle rep, I still think it's awesome to imply a character like Gwen is trans. Trans girls don't always get to have a childhood. Transmisogyny fetishizes transfems and presents them as always victimisers, never victims. They're barred from girlhood and it's connotations of innocence, vulnerability, lovableness.

Not that Gwen isn't a hashtag strong female character! And not that she hasn't had to grow up fast in other ways. She Is Literally Spiderwoman and she plays the drums and has agency and expresses negative emotions. But she's also a teenager, and she gets to be hugged and comforted, and to be set up for a soft friends to lovers relationship with another teenager, a cis boy who respects her and only knows her as a girl and thinks she's amazing and draws her in his sketchbook. That is not a role the media often lets trans girls have!!! It's lovely to think young transfems might be able to see themselves in a character consistently shown as worthy of affection.

Of course, the fact that Gwen is in the closet about being spider-woman is even sadder knowing this is her second rodeo. Lots of us have hesitated to come out a second time because our parents were supportive about the first thing and well, putting something else on them feels like taking the piss or hoping for too much.

Something else I wanted to talk about is how Gwen being trans effects a reading of her Peter's death, especially taking into account the new information this film gave us about this. There's this gendered switch happening, where Peter passes on his usual role to a woman. What's more, he has to die for her story to happen. She loves him, and never wanted him to die, but she's blamed for it anyway. Her father talks affectionately about the dead Peter, calling him his daughter's best friend. He talks about him like a son. He vows revenge on Gwen for killing him. It's a fantastic allegory for how some transphobic parents hate their out trans children for 'killing' the kid they had before.

I think with the above in mind, maybe we can see the subtext of Gwen's arc with her dad in this film as that of a supportive parent who's nevertheless got some biases left that hurt his trans daughter, who doesn't speak up for fear his acceptance is conditional.

I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that protecting a trans daughter is this Captain Stacy's motivation while he's working as a cop. Obviously there's the text that he wants to be a 'good cop' to work against the institution's bigotry, and he displays the trans flag on his work jacket. His quitting the police is a fantastic story beat because it makes a point about the real world while also serving a lot of the analogies going on.

Good cops quit. They realise you can't be a well intentioned cog in a bigoted machine. It doesn't matter if you're a bigot or just taking actions a bigot might because you're working within parameters set by bigots. It's an important message. Within a trans reading of the film, I'd also see this plot moment as Stacy realising he can't protect his trans daughter if he's still playing by the rules of a society that see her as threatening and duplicitous. He's then able to stop seeing her on some level as having killed his son.

They're able to be close again because he has completely rejected the cis culture he was a part of, rather than just decrying the worst parts and slotting Gwen in. She no longer has to worry that he'll rescind his acceptance if she's too trans, and so he gets to know all of her because she can let him into her world without self-editing.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on Gwen after watching Across The Spiderverse two hours ago lmao.

[catgirl-kaiju]

i don't want anyone to start shit with tumblr user velvetvexations, but i do have some criticisms about the way she seems to operate.

when visiting her blog and looking her up in the tumblr search function, i see a pattern of behavior where she will go into people's ask boxes to badger folks who post about transmisogyny, interpretting many comments regarding the subject to be anti-transmasc, even when transmasc people are not even mentioned. she refers to this as "activism", but it reads more as a petulant "debate me" behavior that serves only to start fights with people she disagrees with.

this tendancy of hers is why i'm not @ing her or tagging her in this post, and why i've blocked her. i have no interest in dealing with a combative stranger on the internet.

i find it curious that she puts so much effort into harassing people who disagree with the transandrophobia model of talking about transmasc issues, or even just people who post about transmisogyny in a way she feels demonizes transmasc folks (just based on vibes, i guess), while putting very little effort into actually spreading awareness about the challenges that transmasc folks face.

like, i may disagree with transandrophobia being an appropriate or productive way to model the kinds of challenges unique to transmasc folks, but that doesn't mean that i think transmasc issues aren't worth talking about and making space for. i mostly post abt transfem stuff, bc that's what i most easily relate to, and it's what i can speak to from my experiences. but i do actually try to boost posts from transmasc folks that talk about transmasc issues and the transmasc experience. transmasc folks are an important part of my life and my community; i want them to be heard and cared about.

but, under the narrow conception of someone like velvetvexations, i actually hate transmasc folks bc i don't talk abt their issues and experiences the specific way she wants people to. and, frankly, it's strange that she seems to consider herself an authority in this area when she is not able to speak from a transmasc perspective. i think her energy would be much better spent boosting the words of transmasc folks speaking to their own experiences and drawing attention to causes that can address the challenges that they face, instead of trying to police the speech of her fellow transfems.

anyway, i think it would be hypocritical of me, on some level, to insist that she should boost the speech of transmasc folks and draw attention to causes that aid transmascs without doing that myself. so, i'll be taking a moment to post some links here to charitable causes that benefit transmascs:

Tbuddy bridges the critical gap in mental health support for transmasculine individuals by fostering a safe, 24/7 peer support network that leverages the power of lived experience. Through compassionate and confidential connections, we combat isolation, depression, and empower transmasculine individuals to thrive.

you can donate to Tbuddy on their website and you can apply for their services and resources if you are a transmasc person in need. they have been around since 2017, and were founded in response to the 51% suicide rate among transmasc folks at the time, seeking to combat the issues that drive transmasc people to suicidality.

DCATS (DC Area Transmasculine Society) is a trans-led nonprofit organization that serves to advance the lives of transmasculine folks by providing resources that help overcome the social, economic, and health-related barriers to living authentically. Founded in 1998 as a monthly support group, DCATS has transformed into an organization that offers a variety of services to meet our community's needs.

DCATS has a donate option on their website, as well as methods of contact, events, and programs.

Trans Masculine Alliance Houston is a peer led community group for anyone assigned female at birth (AFAB) who identifies as FtM, transmasculine, non-binary, or who is questioning their gender. TMAH’s mission is to provide a safe and supportive environment for the transmasculine community. We hold workshops, community building and social activities, and meet to engage in discussion of issues related to transmasculine identity. Additionally, we are working on a program to help offset the cost of gender affirming surgeries and name/gender marker filing fees.

there does not appear to be a place to donate on their website, but they do have a directory of various resources pertinent to transmasc needs, some of them specific to the Houston area, and some more widely accessible.

i'm gonna stop there, just bc this post is already SO long, but anyone feel free to post more in the reblogs. also, transmascs, feel free to post any of your donation or fundraising links on this post. i will do my best to boost!

alright end of post, g'night y'all!

[spacelazarwolf]

oh lesbian chemical plant blocked me because I disagreed with a post that was basically saying ‘afab intersex ppl can never be transfem and there is no nuance whatsoever and also afab intersex ppl never experience transmisogyny because if you’re a woman they don’t see you as the wrong kind of woman and if you’re a man don’t talk about this’ and like. I have literally been told I’m a deformed man invading womens spaces because I’m intersex. It doesn’t matter to them that I was afab and look female because knowing how I’m intersex makes them see me as male. And then she went on to make a post about how basically since there are some intersex terfs intersex people oppress trans women and there is no systemic intersexism in trans spaces and trans people can never oppress intersex people. I was just thinking ‘u are proving what ur arguing against here’ but anyways yeah. A lot of shitty takes to say the least

jfc that's awful. honestly the intersexism in trans spaces has gotten so fucking bad over the last few years, it's atrocious. it's always "fuck the binary! gender is a social construct!" until someone with the Wrong Genitals uses the Wrong Word for their experiences or identity, then suddenly we're right back to basic bioessentialism. also like i'm so fucking sick of this internet oppression hierarchy that's based entirely in identity, which is in turn based entirely in white bioessentialist notions of gender. seriously at some point we're going to have to start grappling with the rampant racism and intersexism in the trans community, and i'm hoping it's sooner rather than later.

[rotationalsymmetry]

Ayyy.

So I got a little into the tags on this one. And it's wild. (Transphobia discourse ahead including brief mentions of sexual violence, physical violence, and police and prisons. feel free to scroll past if you don't want to see it.) (btw I'm talking trans fem and trans masc a lot and I realize some non-binary people don't think either term is really applicable to them and...I think that's legit I just don't know what to say about it. Apart from yeah exorsexism is also its own thing. Sorry.)

Here look. Do trans women and trans femmes have some pretty epic issues that are much more a thing they face than a thing that trans mascs face? Of course. If I walk down the street in a short haircut and a binder, I'm not going to be especially worried that a cop will decide to harass me because they think I'm a sex worker. I'm not at especially high risk of a lover murdering me because he's so freaked out at the idea of maybe being a little bit gay because the woman he fucked turned out to not have been born in a body the doctors recognized as female. If I get arrested, well, a lack of hearing about transmasc prison horror stories does not mean they don't exist, but I have heard transfem prison horror stories and they are horrific.

Plus the extra layer of some feminists (terfs) being utterly convinced that trans women are a unique and terrifying threat to feminism and should not be allowed in women's spaces or to even, like...work for feminist organizations? Anyways. It's a whole thing.

And I've known about at least some of this stuff for as long as I've known about any trans issues. And it's horrifying and very much worth talking about and doing stuff about. And it also as far as I can tell does get talked about extensively when people talk about trans issues at all. Which I mean. They often don't.

At the same time, I have also seen a sort of overcorrection, more from cis people than trans people I think, to go "well ok clearly we have to draw the line somewhere, if feminism can include trans fems we have to exclude someone so I guess that means feminism does not apply to trans mascs."

Which is ludicrous.

Misogyny affects trans fems. Street harassment and job discrimination and a million other feminist issues affect trans women. (In fact, trans fems often offer a uniquely valuable perspective on these things, as they can compare how people treat them at different stages of how other people see them.) Misogyny affects trans fems, again not surprisingly because is there any group of women that misogyny does not affect, so feminism should include trans fems.

And misogyny affects trans mascs. Abortion access and contraception access affects us. The restrictions placed on girls affect us, since most of us didn't transition at age two. Clothes without pockets often affect us. Sexual harassment and sexual assault and unfortunately in some cases corrective rape affect us. And here look, I pretty much look like a cis woman who doesn't shave her body hair, but trans masc who look like guys have this really unpleasant problem where often they still need "women's health care", Pap smears and whatnot, because "women" need a lot of health care, while looking like guys, where the worst scenario is getting refused care and the next worst one is getting care but being misgendered the entire time and the best case scenario of getting appropriate care and not being misgendered and also not being slammed by dysphoria or the psychological residue of past health care experiences too hard, is hard to find. Ok?

If misogyny affects trans mascs, and again it does, then trans mascs belong in feminism, ie the struggle against misogyny.

If misogyny affects trans mascs in a way that intersects with transphobia -- if trans mascs get special experiences that are much more common for them than for either cis women or trans fems or cis men -- then there should be a word for that. And in theory you could talk about transmisogyny to cover both, because hey intersection of transphobia and misogyny what else are you going to call it, but a lot of people are deeply convinced that transmisogyny means specifically the oppression that trans fems expeiences so it's almost less effort to just coin a new term than to fight over what transmisogyny should mean. So. Here we are.

It's really wild that any of this is controversial. Let alone that people will get so intensely angry about it.

[undeaddyke]

Hey, idk how to word this well but I just wanted you to know that even though I don’t reach out much (<- guy who is bad at communicating) I still consider you my friend and I’m sorry you’re having to deal with these transmisogynistic dipshits (I saw the one ask, idk if there were more but I know there’s a lot of ppl like that on here unfortunately so :/ ). I feel like when ppl (including and maybe especially trans guys) hear trans women talk about transmisogyny and stuff, they think that when trans women say “trans women experience transmisogyny and trans men do not” they somehow translate that to “trans men are not oppressed at all and do not experience any transphobia” which is. Obviously NOT what trans women are saying at all, and is an insanely bad faith take to jump on. Like. Trans women do for real have it worse than trans men, but that DOES NOT mean that trans men don’t deal with shit also. But it DOES mean that trans men need to be conscious of how they treat trans women, just like everyone else does. Ya know, kinda like how just because you’re gay doesn’t mean you can’t be racist kind of a deal. Like, no one is saying trans guys aren’t marginalized at all, they’re just saying that because of the intersection of transphobia and misogyny, trans women have to deal with more crap usually and it’s not a type of crap that trans men are exempt from exuding. Like. I’m a trans guy who generally I would say doesn’t pass, but is feasibly clockable as trans, so do I experience transphobia and also misogyny? Yeah probably. But do I experience specifically transmisogyny? No, of course not. It doesn’t mean my experiences are less valid or that I have the same privilege as a cis man, but it does mean that I still need to be aware of how I treat and respond to trans women. Anyways sorry this is so long, I just wanna say I guess that you’re right (which of course you don’t need my like assurance of but I know sometimes it’s nice to know someone is on your side) and that I’m here for you, and that it is so important for trans guys to support their trans sisters because yeah, we ARE all in this together - just not necessarily all in the same exact way (if that makes sense).

I appreciate you 💕 Yeah like I think one of the things that bugs me so much about the concept of transandrophobia is that like, it does actually also hurt trans men by treating things like transphobia, misdirected misogyny, racism, homophobia, and toxic masculinity as a specifically unique to trans guys thing when really its the same oppressions that people affected by any of those other oppressions also face and like. The way we eliminate those oppressions is through trying to build community and do things about it and recognizing it in all its forms. Ultimately what makes me more upset is that they use it as a gotcha to shut up trans women but like it does hurt y'all too. But I very much appreciate and love the trans men in my life who do recognize and confront transmisogyny both when they see it and do the deinternalizing of it in themselves

[scrambleseggy]

I think something wild about being an afab going on T at almost 30 and also being someone who’s lived an overall queer experience under a somewhat tedious labeling process is that I have MET toxic masculine trans men. For the record, I very much appear as a cis woman to people, and most people I meet just kinda sum me up as “some sorta lesbian.”

TW from some harsher personal experiences.

Back in my early 20’s, one of my FTM franchise managers sexually harassed me at a company party very inappropriately. Within the same time frame, one of my now ex-friends and on-site manager was dating a trans men who fit ALL the stereotypes of toxic masculinity: disregard for others, pavement princess giant truck, constantly talking over others or using his strength as a source of intimidation (and I would say a source of overcompensation as well lets be real here lol). At a certain point he made this ex-friend cry so much, I had to ban him from my house and tell him I’d try to get a restraining order if he came back.

So it does really annoy me that there seems to be an ignorant group of people who form online when trans women speak about transmisogyny within the community. Because there are trans men out there who act like complete douchebags and assholes to validate themselves in their identity or they’re just plainly assholes, and this is something I would see a lot at gay clubs as opposed to tight knit groups or niche online circles. Trans women and others are trying to tell ya’ll that this is a problem that happens and some of you are childishly sticking your fingers in your ears and going “LALALA TRANSANDROPHOBIA SHHHHHH” and it’s like… Ya’ll, you don’t have to turn a blind eye to this shit because quite frankly it’s embarrassing and very misinformed.

I will say however that as someone who is thinking about transition now, I can empathize with the knee-jerk reaction as well. It’s really scary to have people tell you the negative things you could become or ways you could hurt people. It can actually in my experience be a whole driving force in continuing to remain dysphoric through your life because it’s better to do that than feel like you may end up being completely alienated from everyone, especially if all women are a very important part to you in your life.

The whole “T is poison” thing runs deep. I always had this fear that the moment I’d start it would be the moment I would become the very thing I’m made to be afraid of even if it’s what I want to be. It’s such a difficult ball of yarn to unravel. What if I did get male privilege, but even in my gender euphoria, I end up hating myself anyway? What if I don’t get male privilege or “pass” but people in the “community” (such a loose and confusing word imo) also hate me and then I have no one? If straight women treat me bad after or before “passing”, if lesbian women see me in ways I don’t want to be seen, if cis straight men think I’m a freak and gay men think I’m an intruder… Where does that place me in the world? And who really am I? Will people believe me less or more when I’m hurt by others?

I think it’s atleast something for people to consider because as someone who’s dealing with really bad dysphoria right now, these are the kinds of thoughts that have been running through my head.

It’s also good to remember that online is online and real life is real life. Yes sometimes they reflect each other, but oftentimes, people lie on the internet (GASP!) and speak in exaggerations.

This is why it’s always good to try and strive for local connects to maintain your own sanity. At the end of the day, I know my own friends who still see me as the same person. And getting to know my own family of queer people of all kinds who I love dearly and they love me back does make the world feel like a more understanding place and less like a cruel and divisive one. I guess it’s just something to keep in mind.

[recreationaldivorce]

also re that post I can't find cause I scrolled past it that basically said that if you see someone wearing harry potter merch out in public they probably don't actually know jkr is transphobic/transmisogynistic - firstly, really wish the op had specified only in the country they're from (which based on the post seems to be the US?) bc it's definitely untrue in the UK. in my own lived experience of interacting w people who wear hp merch I do think it is legit a dogwhistle in 2023 + coverage of jkrs views is regularly on the front page of mainstream national news. I can imagine it gets less coverage in the US as jkrs not from that country but in the UK literally from my own experience of talking to the most normie ass logged off people, the average brit is aware of it and it is common knowledge and it has been since about 2020-21 (it's been public knowledge for longer but the press didn't really report on it until then). and also if ur talking specifically about people who wear harry potter merch that's not the average person, that's someone who's gone out of their way to buy and actively wear hp merch, ie someone who's probably a fan, ie someone who is much more likely to be following news about jkr and following her on social media or whatever. like if you go on any of the ye olde web 1.0 noughties hp fansites (those that still exist anyway) a lot of them will have issued some kind of statement on jkrs transphobia/transmisogyny - if it's someone who actually considers themselves a fan of jkr/hp they are much more likely to both know about it and have an opinion on it. "it's not common knowledge" would've been an accurate statement in 2017 when everyone who knew she was a transmisogynist were people who were regularly checking jk rowlings twitter likes, ie probably her fans, ie if someone actually likes/d harry potter they'd probably be the first to know lol...

in any case - very possibly the average person in the US wearing harry potter merch isn't transphobic, I dunno, ive never been to that country. but that's absolutely not a universal thing and I especially don't think "it's not common knowledge" is applicable to people who wear hp merch as a group, which is not representative of the general population.

[fite-club]

Greg filling up ur inbox for the 5000th time bc this topic is interesting to me I’m sorry about it LOL youre feeling like one of the only sane ones now to me on this site— I think something I want “transandrophobia truthers” to know is that as someone who believed everything they were saying and now did a 180 —- I want them to consider how any of their problems aren’t just inherently problems having to do with feminism. Ie, for example, the whole “delusional girl” shit — like yes it is SO frustrating to be treated like you can’t decide who you are for yourself but also… Is that issue not directly related to feminism and how women are perceived?? Not men?? Ya’ll did have me until I had people flinging shit into my mentions about “feminists being misogynists” which like… As a core argument is the stupidest thing to believe. I just really don’t see any of these people talking about transmisogyny but damn, LET ALONE misogyny? They say they aren’t like “MRA’s” a lot of times too but they are making misandry arguments with a coat of trans paint over it. Anyway I’ll stop trying to flood your inbox today, it’s just now wild to me to see how people refuse to acknowledge how non-passing trans men, whatever that might be for someone, can still deal with misogyny even if it sucks to admit it and it has nothing to do with being perceived as a man in anyway. Truth hurts but it is the truth— it did prey on my insecurities especially as a sex worker and someone who works for a lot of tips to make ends meet. There’s a lot of unaddressed problems in terms of feeling safe transitioning as a trans man within that industry that’s different to trans women in the industry and still trying to hold the job but I had to realize a lot of those issues stem from people wanting me to “stay a women” due to misogynistic objectification. It has nothing to do with manhood. Thinking on this further made me realize how much bullshit the transandrophobia thing is.

we could be having an ancient-philosopher-ass intellectual forum about the nuances and experiences of transmascs doing sex work and the extreme difficultly involved in navigating those spaces but nah we’re stuck on road-maps-on-rugs-ass tantrums about whether or not the patriarchy is real

something that lots of people who are in transandrophobia circles don’t realize is that, yes, they’re talking about sexism, but there are so many things that get conveniently left out of the conversation. so many things about misogyny and trans women that get omitted so that these issues can be flattened down and stretched to fit whatever point that transmasc is trying to make. it’s harder to notice when something is missing than when something wrong is included. but the whole thing about “voices who are silenced” is that you do not hear them because they are being silenced.

the number one thing i want transandrophobia truthers to do is separate criticism of these terms from accusations that trans men don’t face any oppression. the biggest defense i see is “they just want us to shut up, they just don’t want to hear us talk about our discrimination” which is such a manipulative thing to say. the terfs in your inbox saying you’re a girl who should shut up are not the transmascs in your community begging for you to use different language, and it’s honestly malicious to paint them with the same brush and same intentions. i don’t think any transandrobros are capable of approaching anything in good faith nor do i think they’re even trying to

[mr-ribbit]

I mean, I blocked her after learning about how awful she was from numerous posts with evidence. So, I'm good there. I didn't bring up her racism to "shame you". You wanted to know who the bigots were that I mentioned so I gave a specific answer and a lil info in case just a name wasn't good enough. When I said I don't care that she's trans I meant, I'm not about to overlook her shit behavior just because she's trans like others do. I obviously mentioned her being trans because that's all she, you, and the rest talk about whenever she's being called out or criticized for something. You guys make it impossible to not mention it.

I only bothered to leave a message in the first place because of the bullying happening from this side. [Not specifically you!]. That person never did what they were accused of, even apologized for the misunderstanding, and txttle & co. still went out of their way to spread the post that had been deleted and act like that op never censored her name in an attempt to avoid any drama in the first place. I don't care for popular people weaponizing their fans like that. But whatever. I'm not trying to convince you to hate her. I'm moving on. I did read the rest of your post and see some of the points you're getting at. And I do apologize for initially telling you to fuck off.

i see, you're right that that was less of a non sequitur than I initially read it as, but I still think its not really relevant to the broader discussion here. bringing up every single past grievance a specific blogger has done (even if you're just bringing it up in your mind) when we're talking about the specific problem of csa being wielded too quickly against people is an example of what I would call uncharitable and unfair.

i won't speak for others, but the reason I brought up transness in this conversation, and think it's relevant to others like it, is because the initial posts that started this particular debate are partially about being trans. when someone says "im trans and i feel that my sexuality is frequently conflated with abuse", and the response is a complete stranger calling that person an abuser, you can see how I might want to explain the effects of transmisogyny while exploring the issue. it's not the only thing I brought up - in fact my post was largely about how even if you do not think you're acting transphobic, that doesn't make it ok to be mean to people anyway. but when you get upset that it was brought into the discussion, and claim it's being used as a "shield" or for "special treatment", you are conflating the concept of speaking up about transmisogyny with lying. this, understandably, will make people want to defend the concept of transmisogyny to you, even if they do not think you specifically care about that part.

i don't really think anyone should be bullied or harassed in general, even if they do something that makes me upset. however, i do think there is a bit of a simplification happening here. i don't believe txttletale or any specific blogger that I've seen speaking on these issues has done anything in this situation besides respond to accusations, and those responses are obviously going to be defending themselves. they may also be angry or upset in nature, since being accused of something awful you didn't do by people you don't know is upsetting to experience.

since making the original post, that person may have apologized but he's also made several posts continuing to make the same accusations again and again, and continuing to say that just because he isn't trying to be transphobic that it's okay. it's not okay. it's also not okay to see other people come to defense of someone and assume that they are only doing it because of some kind of blind trans loyalty, rather than the fact that they're sincerely upset about something that affects their lives too. a lot of people have made posts explaining this extremely earnestly and extremely patiently, and they are almost always taken in bad faith or ignored. the same people have made posts about how nobody listens to them on these issues, and those posts are also used to start drama.

i also sincerely do not believe that txttletale has used her follower count to send haters at this person. she was being talked about by someone to a group of people who all knew who she was and was making fun of her in the notes. she talked about the problem on her blog, because she did not agree with what was being said about her and wanted to correct it. whether or not the original post was deleted, you guys don't get to just decide when it's time for someone to shut up about being called a pedophile in public. if she's still getting hate too, why does the other guy get to keep talking about it but she isn't?

im glad you're letting go, I think it's probably for the best. you say you have her blocked, but youve spent a lot of time talking to me, someone you have repeatedly pointed out might not be sending the hate or might not be the problem, about her. that's an example of what I've been calling an overreaction disproportionate to the problem. you don't like her, so block her and people that talk about her. or blacklist the name. spending time in someone else's inbox, or putting up censored screenshots about a person you hate isn't a good way to deal with that feeling. it's harassment. even if you're not sending it to her, sending it to me where she can obviously see it or posting screenshots of her posts with mean accusations on them is still hurtful and mean and unnecessary for you to do with your time.

thanks for the apology, I understand things get heated but I hope you understand sometimes that means people will respond in a heated manner in return. i appreciate that you were willing to talk to me a little more maturely about this, but I still think you should consider how quickly you jump to conclusions about other people you know. or don't, but idk, don't spend so much energy on hate.

[spacelazarwolf]

on your post talking about why white transmascs self identify as TME, I also think it’s worth noting that a lot of them probably… do experience transmisogyny and just don’t label it as such. i think the TME/TMA binary and the way it’s presented with no nuance means most people who blindly accept it don’t actually know what transmisogyny is and have no idea whether or not they actually experience it. they just see the people pushing the binary call transmascs TME and put themselves into that category by the assumption they automatically don’t experience transmisogyny because in the push for TME/TMA everything what transmisogyny actually is just never gets communicated. (coming from an intersex person with NCAH who is speaking from direct experience. I did this)

it really bums me out bc like. we should not be sitting here arguing over who "can" experience transmisogyny. it literally does not matter who the internet decides "can" experience transmisogyny, bc it's gonna happen anyway. so many internet discussions are entirely focused around identities and definitions and online dynamics and spaces that we just like. completely forget the real world exists, where we have little to no control over what happens to us. i keep getting anons that are like "well if someone is racist/antisemitic to a white person/gentile does that mean they've experienced racism/antisemtism??????" and like?????????? literally, definitionally, legally yes?????????????????

the entire point of specifying in legislation about protecting people from discrimination and hate crimes that it doesn't matter if the victim doesn't fall under the definition of (for example) disabled if the person who discriminated against them or committed a hate crime against them did so because they thought they were disabled. if we insist that to experience transmisogyny/transphobia/racism/antisemitism/ableism/etc that you have to be a certain identity, that is setting an incredibly dangerous precedent that i'm sure a lot of bigots would love to turn into legislation. because can you imagine how hard it would be to prove you're "actually trans" to a jury of transphobes? or "actually disabled" to a judge that doesn't think your disability counts as a disability? so like. other than just being fucking ridiculous, it is just an incredibly dangerous line of thinking.

[golden--flowers]

I get annoyed by people so it's Unpopular Opining Time. Whenever trans men or transmasculine people or whoever try to use the word transmisandry, other people shut them down (and ignore whatever experiences they're trying to articulate) by saying 'transmisandry isn't real because misandry isn't real, transmisogyny exists as an intersection of transphobia and misogyny, but the experience you're talking about is just transphobia'. [As a side note, it is true that misandry doesn't exist in the same way as misogyny, as a like, social order and hierarchy, but society at large, imperial society, does want men to also be miserable because it wants everyone to either be miserable or afraid in various ways. Society wants men to be unable to foster emotional connections with anyone, even in passing, feel isolated, and blame women for their problems. And this is usually only expressed by people saying 'the patriarchy hurts men too'.] Anyways. So, since transmisandry got shot down and treated like a Cringe Term, people came up with transandrophobia as a term with less baggage that could still be used to communicate their unique experiences, and it still gets shut down as being just another word for the same thing!

I'm lucky enough to experience internet and trans community spheres/spaces where radical inclusion, radical trans inclusion, acceptance, solidarity, are the norm. I knew someone who considered themself as transmasculine and experienced very different internet spheres than me, as you do, and the climate was so different than what I was used to, I was hesitant to believe it at first, bu they really opened my eyes to how things can be, Out There. And since then I've seen many other people sharing their own experiences with being transmasculine or a trans man. Getting shamed for choosing manhood, for identifying with men, being called a traitor, being considered gross, or as violent somehow, being less included in discussions of trans experiences and less worth listening to, being considered as less of a three dimensional person, considered as automatically having more privilege or being an oppressor, but if they don't Pass enough having their gender made invisible, and many paradoxical treatments the same as trans women and nonbinary people who don't identify as transmasculine have. If you go to an in person queer rally event you can count how many of the speakers are trans women, how many are nonbinary, and how many are trans men. Part of what I'm saying also is that it's easy to think the way you see people treated around you as the norm, and to disbelieve people when they say they've had very different experiences elsewhere, the experiences of both places both happen.

People say that trans men and transmasculine people can only experience transphobia, not a specific intersection of transphobia and something else, as if anyone is ever hated solely for the decision to change their gender from the one assigned at birth and nothing else about them. People say that bias against men doesn't exist in society At Large, as if society is a monolith, and as if there's an insignificant number of people in society in general and in queer communities who have lived under patriarchy and as a reaction to that have swung to the idea of manhood being bad/gross/lesser/violent, even when that supposition hurts vulnerable people. If being hated not for choosing your gender but for choosing your gender and that chosen gender being man or masculine isn't an intersection of transphobia and something else, I don't know what is. And when a lot of that hatred comes from people who are queer, and who are trans, who are supposed to be part of your community, I think that deserves a word for it.

Even aside from all that. I don't think it's ever right to take a piece of vocabulary that people use to express their experiences and their truth, and to smear it so much it becomes unusable. I'm aspec, and I'm nonbinary. I remember not just mockery of the idea of aspec people being included in the queer community, but specifically mockery of terms like amatonormativity used to express the oppressive societal norms and rules around relationships and what they can be. Mockery of xenogender labels and neopronouns, the attack helicopter thing. I'm always going to be sympathetic and want people to be able to use the language that they have to express their unique experiences, and for them to be trusted on it.

[shopcat]

how do you feel about transfem steve in general? I admit as a transfem-ish nb person myself I really enjoy projecting myself onto Steve but I mostly have to restrict myself to enjoying art and my friends creations because so much of it is like. the extreme of the baby girl twink bottom boy waif steve fetishization trend to eddies bad boy s&m gay sex master. it's like people can't acknowledge that mlm in the 80s could be gnc and not transfem, and that steve could retain his personality and not be a blushing virginal archetype the minute he puts on some makeup

OH in general i think it's awesome like Fuck Yes transgender right. i love the idea and i love all trans hcs but especially for steve and i think it's also really cool that a lot of people do like it because in my experience in the past people r far more unreceptive out of just like transmisogyny.. :( like it's cool how open people are TO the idea it's just sometimes the idea sucks ass when someone is doing it with ill intention or ignorance 😭

i've talked about this a little i honestly think 😭 there is just a huge problem with casual transmisogyny in the st fandom and it's dressed up as like, inclusivity?? bc it will not be outright blatant bigotry it's the weird insidiously needling things or like, genuine fetishisation or like that weird shit where people have eddie say transfem steve is his "exception" but he's gay (when eddie is not ... gay. so they're making him gay to insert this weird roadblock and it comes off uncomfortable it is not as coolpillbasedawesome as people assume it is... sexuality can be fluid and change especially in the wake of gender and identity shifting and growing with a relationship but people can't actually apply that needed depth and complexity in a 30 word wordcount lame headcanon post or 2 second comic it just comes off that eddie sees her as a boy or otherwise invalidating tbh!!). and tbh one of the largest aspects from my perspective at least of the reason the hc became popular over on st twitter is because the nsfw artists got really into the "trend" just making blatant trans fetish content as people will Always do but like god that's just depressing 😭😭 that it was even called a trend is concerning in the first place to be honest but i guess that's just a semantics thing..

and yeah i think ur absolutely right :0 i think one time i said um like it's really clear when people who are making this harmful content (albeit out of ignorance and not malicious intention) will be doing it as an extension of steve being the ultimate subby blushing baby girl and if the starting line for a trans headcanon is someone's FEMINISATION KINK that's just plain concerning :( going hand in hand with shipping her with robin i think it's just fucking weird to go as far as you can to try and get stobin to date and they're always making her a trans girl TO date robin as the crux of it and never ... just to be a person. with autonomy. then they think it's like awesome and validating her gender because robin sees her as a woman but like ?? 😭 why wouldn't she. i don't know it's just weird to me to use robin's sexuality as a prop like that on top of the fact it implies robin's sexuality is "in the way" of them having feelings for each other... yuck. like even if i understand the angle to go against what a lot of tma people have spoken out against (the... iffiness of headcanoning a male character as a trans girl from the perspective of a tme person no matter their intention) to specifically do that to those two in particular is so STRANGE and then every single time someone goes this is weird they're like "well you just think robin wouldn't date her cuz she's not a real girl" like omg you're soooo stupid like rocks in your fucking brain. even if steve was a cis girl they wouldn't date also why r they never going Yesss transfem nancy or vickie or fucking chrissy or whoever they ship her with now like it's TRANSPARENT. anyway.

other than that i think it's a really fun & cool thing !!! :) if they're made responsibly especially if like you said it comes from a place of empathetic projection let alone from someone actually transfem it's so fun & cool i honestly think a big problem IS that tme people are spearheading it and end up perpetuating harmful ideals and honestly as one myself i don't even know if i can identify it all but i try my best to at least be like Hey guys... 😭. but it sucks when something fun so connected w peoples irl identities and senses of selves like that is taken by fandom and like strangled to death U_U. i have a lot of free floating little steve's in my mind and i really i suppose enjoy..? both the transmasc and transfem experience 4 him i can see it in both ways and it rules + with the stipulation that like. transfem ofc doesn't equal binary trans it's just a sweeping term or that all tma people ARE transfem etc etc so he is transfem a lot of the time just by virtue of it and It Rules. it rules. honestly this answer ended up more airing my frustrations again i'm sorry 😭😭 Basically i love transfem steve in all manner of expression... from genderfluidity to bigender identity to he/she realness to the outright trans girl coolness and i also love seperately from that hc him being just a little fun with it like u said. gnc steve one of the most beautiful things in the world. insert a how i look with he/him in my bio picture here.

[manstrans]

the transandrophobia/transmisandry argument is so fucking exhausting because like you don’t really see this in other communities, at least not rn anyway. for example, and as a tmoc the first issue that pops up is obviously on the topic of racism, as a nonblack Latine i would never tell a nonlatine Black person that calling specific antiblack racism antiblackness is wrong or that they’re anti-Latine for it, and likewise a Black person would never say that calling out anti-Latine racism specifically is being antiblack. we both recognise the need to fucking call a spade a spade. it’s important to have the overarching umbrella of “racism” to describe general racism and xenophobia to describe xenophobia, but that doesn’t mean that words like antiblackness, anti-Latine hate, anti-Asian hate, or anti-Indigenous hatred/genocide/erasure are therefore unnecessary. that’s not how it works. but maybe this kind of thing is less common in communities of color because we have more overlap (for example, you can be AfroLatino, but you can’t really be a trans man and a trans woman in the sense of having the lived experiences of BOTH a binary trans man and a binary trans woman, and while bigender trans people who consider both their manhood and their womanhood to be trans do exist, it’s not the same as having your lived experience mesh both worlds together in the same way as being a mixed poc)

so maybe for a closer example, like, yes this was a prominent belief previously on queer tumblr, but now if someone says biphobia is “misplaced homophobia” or something in the year of our lord 2022, i would simply have to laugh because biphobia involves very specific things that aren’t directed at gay men and lesbians (the idea that we’re all cheaters/sluts, that we can’t pick a side or are confused gay/straight people, bi erasure, etc) as well as things that stem from general homophobia… or for example, if someone refused to acknowledge the fact that while homophobia specific to gay men and lesbophobia are related, they do have specific differences in the way they manifest (for example, lesbians having a higher risk of SA from cishets and corrective SA in particular, and being fetishised, while gay men are fetishised it’s in a different way and less mainstream because the cishet male gaze doesn’t allow for it, and gay men have a higher risk of hate crimes resulting in injury or death and not involving SA). and it’s the same with transmisogyny and transmisandry, they both stem from transphobia and misogyny (because newsflash, all transphobia was misogyny the whole time, asshole!), and they have a lot of similarities, but the way that transphobia manifests is different depending on the perceived sex of the victim. recognising the differences is important, and i see a lot of arguments against the use of the term(s) transmisandry or transandrophobia where people (and notably, this is mostly cis people who have no fucking stake in this at all) claim that trans men are saying transmisogyny doesn’t exist or the word is not important, which is far from what any of us have been saying—we’ve been saying that we ALL need language to talk about our specific issues without it being derailed to talk about how transphobia affects other trans people. we just won’t stand to let our issues be silenced or dismissed, because they frequently are and have been since people started even acknowledging trans people exist at all. i’ve met many, MANY people who don’t even know that trans men exist, much less any trans person who isn’t a binary woman or man. now that i pass, when i tell people im trans, if i don’t SPECIFICALLY say something about, like, idk casually mentioning my menstrual cycle or something specific to being transmasculine, ive noticed if i just say to someone “i’m trans” and they know my masculine legally changed name, they ask me what my name is because they assume i must be transfeminine, and the idea that i could be transmasculine doesn’t cross their mind for a damn second.

my point ran away from me a bit here but the point is, you should never, EVER try to take away the language a marginalised group uses to talk about their oppression, even if you’re also marginalised, but especially if you have privilege over them (ie the cis people who are involved in this argument, who, again, greatly outweigh the trans people opposing this language both in number and especially in social privilege, which honestly i think they’re intentionally leveraging both against us to tear the trans community apart because if we can’t stand together we WILL buckle under the weight of cis supremacy). and ESPECIALLY groups that are erased and shoved to the side in discussions of oppression, like bisexuals, intersex people, asexuals/aspecs and aromantics/arospecs, and of course also trans men in particular and transfeminine nonbinary/genderqueer people in particular. honestly noticing the similarities between the treatment of trans men and more visibly ‘masculine’ nonbinary/genderqueer people (including those who are transfeminine or transneutral with masculine secondary sex characteristics) is something that i think could help a lot to bridge the gap, because both trans men/transmascs who aren’t men but can pass as men at least partially, and transfeminine/transneutral nonbinary/gq people who can’t or don’t want to pass as women, are highly erased and silenced in the trans community and the queer community in general, from all sides. but idk. it just feels like we are starting here by asking for help and receiving so much rage and accusations of bigotry simply for asking to be recognised that i honestly worry about if this damage is already beyond repair :(

Thank you for sharing!!!

Yeah there's a lot of problems that some people intentionally exacerbate, but I don't think it's beyond repair even if it can seem like that sometimes

There's a lot of trans people of every demographic who support us! It can just get drowned out sometimes

I think it's important to seek them out so it's easier to form that solidarity

[transmisogyny-explained]

In my writing for this blog, I generally try to adopt a formal and impersonal approach to the subject matter at hand. Admittedly, I can be sarcastic and short-tempered at times, but ultimately, I try to appear as a level-headed individual. The problem is that I’m not always a level-headed individual and I’m just as capable of making mistakes as anyone else. Reflecting on this has gotten me thinking about another aspect of transmisogyny which I don’t think I’ve yet discussed.

One thing I notice pretty often whenever analyzing discourse surrounding transmisogyny is how transfems’ motivations are perceived and subsequently characterized by TMEs who talk about us. Naturally, it’s most obvious when coming from overtly transmisogynistic groups, e.g. TERFs, but I’d like to talk about it in a broader sense today (and how it relates to what I do on this blog).

Firstly, four disclaimers:

1. In this post, I’ll be touching on topics of emotional repression, childhood trauma, Christianity & toxic masculinity, gaslighting, misogyny, and (of course) transmisogyny. Read on at your own discretion.

2. TMEs are fully welcome to reblog. I’m aiming for this to be an educational and informative post about one facet of transmisogyny, even if it does get pretty personal and a little heavy at times.

3. I’m going to be sharing some details of my personal experiences and I ask that, if you choose to add or respond to this post, please refrain from making it about me. I’m not looking for advice, words of sympathy, or analysis of my situation, I’m just sharing what I think is relevant information.

4. This post is explicitly about transmisogyny. If you are a TME person who relates to anything I discuss here, I don’t want to invalidate that at all and I don’t mind if you share, just please try not to derail and make this post about any particular group of TMEs.

Anyway, without further ado, let’s talk about

How transmisogyny convicts transfems of invented/perceived motivations.

Being raised as a “Good Christian Boy,” I was taught to repress everything. Confusion about my identity, sadness over feeling alienated, anger towards mistreatment... Hell, even expressing passion about my interests was too much for the reserved Christian men I grew up around. “Liking cars and power tools is fine, but don’t you ever get excited about sharing that with someone else. That’s weird.” I was taught that all of this would go away if I could just man-up or pray about it enough. If I could only turn my emotions off. And, of course, I internalized such messages as an impressionable child, and they continue to affect me even into adulthood.

I think, in a lot of ways, rather than unlearning repression, I’ve simply converted to (what I see as) the only alternative way of earning that long-desired approval from men. Do not misunderstand me here: being taught to repress my emotions was not “male socialization,” because right alongside those messages were all the do’s and don’ts of being a Proper Lady who folds her hands and never shouts. I internalized those messages, too. “I won’t be angry, I won’t be emotional, I won’t be hysterical. I won’t fight back.” This is, I believe, what I have taught myself. This is how I pray the emotions away.

Of course, there’s the tiny, little detail that this doesn’t work and I will never have the approval of cis men or women at large, but that’s a whole suitcase to throw away another day. Where it starts to get complicated is that I sometimes have trouble determining who my “self” is, and I am positive that these two things are inextricably linked: Repressing my emotions has left me feeling void of an emotional identity. But that void has to be filled by something.

What I’ve noticed is that this tends to happen a lot with transfeminine people, not just during childhood, but all the time. We have ideas put into our heads as frequently as we have words put into our mouths. There’s always a “why.” All sorts of theories about why we are — why we’re actually men, why we’re actually predators, why we’re actually “autogynephiles” — why we went “wrong.” Whys are applied to our motivations for speaking about transmisogyny as well — why we’re appropriating women’s oppression, why we hate trans men, why we’re making too much of a scene — why we’re liars, lying about our oppression and lying about our experiences.

Anyone who’s the slightest bit familiar with how transmisogyny works can tell you that, due to largely unconscious bias, a transfem person’s every word and action will be hyper-scrutinized through the lens that we’re inherently dangerous and predatory until proven otherwise. Our motivations are presumed from the start, and presumed only to change when TMEs decide that evidence is sufficient. This is why many of us are afraid to speak out against transmisogyny and are highly cautious when we do. If every perceptible emotion is seen as a potential motivator for or precursor to violence (or presumed to be deception in service of some ulterior motive), it’s better to have no perceptible emotions at all.

There are various reactions one may have when faced with this reality. There are those who simultaneously affirm and distance themselves from such convictions — “Yes, they’re like that, but I’m not like them. I’m one of the good ones!” There are those who crack and admit to everything under duress, perhaps hoping for some kind of “forgiveness” if they promise to be good. There are those who give up trying to make others understand, who choose to only interact meaningfully with those who already do, other transmisogyny-affected people. There are those who snap and decide, in some twisted sense, that the words which have been put into their mouths should become true. And then there’s me, the one who simply can’t give up.

Why am I doing this?

I ask myself this question constantly and sometimes find that I’ve forgotten the answer, the real answer. Am I appropriating women’s oppression? Do I hate trans men? Am I a monster, a liar, a predator, an aggressor? Am I broken, am I pretending, am I... Am I making too much of a scene?

Anger, emotion, hysteria — Is this what fighting back looks like?

...

I’ve tried many ways of continuing this post from here.

I can’t.

Not without getting deeply into my trauma. I’m not ready to talk about that yet, about why my sense of self is so easily destabilized and what that has to do with transmisogyny. I’ve had enough of whys anyway. You can fill in the blanks with whatever you want, I just want to be heard this once:

The truth is that I didn’t teach myself any of these things, they were beaten into me over and over and over again. The truth is that having motivations thrust upon me all the time destabilizes my sense of self and my sense of purpose, and that’s all you need to know.

Try as I may to be as analytical and impersonal on this blog as possible, I won’t ever be able to separate myself from my trauma. I can’t detach myself from the emotions it makes me feel. At times, I become so obsessed with the idea of “correcting” the version of me that exists in other peoples’ heads that I forget which version of me is real. At times, I become so obsessed with being the “right” me, the Proper Lady who never shouts, that I forget that’s not all there is to me.

I forget why.

And that’s a vicious cycle, isn’t it? Repress your emotions so people don’t get the wrong idea, people force the wrong idea onto you anyway, you start to wonder just how wrong the idea really is if everyone seems to believe it... And if you push back, it’s seen as confirmation that you’re every bit as nasty as they say you are... And if you do nothing, then they continue chipping away at your sense of self while filling that void with their own beliefs about you. That’s a reality that most transfeminine people will have to deal with.

But I know who I am and I know why I do what I do. I truly believe I’m doing the right thing here, this is my conviction. I won’t give up on that, nor will I let anger consume me. I have the right to be angry and I refuse to be demure and passive. But I will also keep my sights on the goodness that I know is within me and within those around me. I’ll fill that void with the compassion that has been shown to me through this blog. That’s my takeaway.

So, in conclusion...

TME allies, please be conscious of the assumptions you make about why a transfeminine person chooses to do what they do and what could be informing those assumptions.

And to my fellow transfems, please remember that, if it came down to it, you could kick the ass of whatever imaginary version of “you” exists in some dumb transmisogynist’s head any day.