#first blackfyre rebellion

[goodqueenaly]

What is your understanding or imagining of the nature of House Ironwood’s support for the Blackfyres? Obviously they’re old enemies of the Martells, but were they effectively betraying all of Dorne by fighting to install an anti-Dornish regime that would place them as Lords Paramount over a more oppressed and forcibly assimilated Dorne? Or could there have been an arrangement where Daemon (or his successor) would give up Dorne to Yronwood rule in order (on the Blackfyre side) to de-Dorneify the rest of Westeros, and return to the old status quo for the Marcher Lords and Reach fighting the border Dornish as their enemies; and Yronwood could position themselves as liberators vs the Martells who “gave up Dorne to the Iron Throne”?

I tend to agree with @racefortheironthrone that House Yronwood wanted, and sought, in Daemon Blackfyre was a rewriting of the political playbook in Dorne which put them, the Yronwoods, on top. To say that House Yronwood has historically resented its secondary position in Dorne under the Martells is perhaps among the greatest of all Westerosi understatements: this is a family whose patriarchs have for the better part of a millennium styled themselves "the Bloodroyal", after all, an open reminder of their illustrious past and a claim to dynastic, if not currently executive, primacy. Daemon's would-be regime attracted other vassal families posed to be rivals to their local liege lords - the Sunderlands, the Reynes and Tarbecks, the Brackens and Freys, especially the Peakes - and the Yronwoods fit squarely in this model; a new dynasty on the Iron Throne would be perfectly positioned to raise new Houses to replace those which had supported the no-good-very-bad Daeron Falseborn, including House Yronwood.

I don't think Daemon could, or would, have agreed to surrendering Dorne, even temporarily. Since the days of Aegon the Conqueror, the Targaryen kings had used the title "King of the Rhoynar", proclaiming a hereditary right to rule Dorne. Indeed, Daemon drew his support in no small part from those "[k]nights and lords of the Dornish Marches" who "began to look more and more to the old days, when Dornishmen were the enemy to fight, not rivals for the king's attention or largesse". To suggest that he would abandon the "ancestral" Targaryen (now Blackfyre) claim to Dorne might well appear, at least to these factions, even worse a betrayal than the actions of Baelor and Daeron II: this was a king who was not only not pursuing that claim, but was acknowledging the right of Dorne to exist as an independent political entity, without the Iron Throne as its suzerain. Instead, I think Daemon agreed to make the Yronwoods Lords - specifically Lords - Paramount of Dorne, in exchange for bending the knee to him as king.

The political trick, of course, would have been how Daemon could square his alliance with and promotion of House Yronwood within Dorne with his power base among those Reach and Stormlands families who advocated for war and conquest in Dorne. Daemon could not in good faith ally with the Yronwoods, then say "alright lads, now time to plunder Dorne wholesale", but nor could he ignore the desire for conquest among his supporters. Perhaps Daemon would have sold future war in Dorne as something of a First Dornish War 2.0, now with the assistance of a pro-Blackfyre family within Dorne to help the Iron Throne and its vassals carve up the holdings of the traitorous Martells and their allies. Perhaps he would have also played up the racial/xenophobic angle, specifically against the Martells and other "salty" Dornishmen, by arguing that the Yronwoods - "that house of blue-eyed blondes", in the words of Quentyn Martell, among those Dornish families who "have the most in common with those north of the mountains and are the least touched by Rhoynish custom" - were in fact true-blue First Men Westerosi unfortunately separated by geopolitical borders, and that the real enemies were those Martells with their foreign, Rhoynish blood.

[warsofasoiaf]

Were the Blackfyre Rebellions at all justified, in your opinion?

@racefortheironthrone has an excellent answer for this question, so I won't repeat words, just add to them.

The First Blackfyre's justification depends a great deal on the actual sequence of events leading to Daemon's arrest. If Daemon was planning a coup, then the reds become a lot more justified in their attempt to arrest and forestall attempted treason - it's a very cut-and-dried matter. If Daemon wasn't plotting a coup, then the First Blackfyre becomes a very justified rebellion - Daeron II violating the rights and body of Daemon Blackfyre out of suspicion and paranoia, and that's dangerous to all the people of Westeros. If Daeron II can seize Daemon out of an invented threat, he can do the same to any of them. This is where the optics of the court come into play and this hurts Daeron. As I've argued before, Daeron exhibited pretty naked favoritism in his court, so this doesn't bode well. Someone who trusted his anti-Aegon IV corruption might be persuaded that he was correct, but his own court policies would suggest that he is himself not an impartial man, either due to being well-meaning but easily manipulated or a self-interested grasper eliminating rival factions. Given the sketchiness of Daemon arrest (he is both said to have declared himself and intending to declare himself in a month, which are mutually contradictory scenarios), it's entirely possible that the charges against Daemon were fabricated, either by Daeron himself or more likely, Bloodraven. Given GRRM's penchant for unreliable narrators, it's likely that this is deliberately vague and will never be confirmed one way or the other, to better underscore the tragedy of the First Blackfyre Rebellion that Dunk has to grapple with in The Sworn Sword and to give Aegon V the chance to find a solution in later Dunk and Egg tales.

The Fourth Blackfyre has a big problem because while Aegon is undoing Bloodraven's misrule, the Blackfyre cause has received dishonorable treachery not once but twice at the hands of the Iron Throne. Haegon was slain treacherously after surrendering his blade, and Aenys Blackfyre was lured to Westeros and murdered there at the behest of Bloodraven, a senior Iron Throne councilor. To the Blackfyres, this means that success in war is the only defense against a murderous Iron Throne. This is why I constantly harp on things like political credibility re: Haegon and Aenys, possible peace treaties in the Dance, the murder of Daeron I under a peace banner, etc. because these are things that make treaties more difficult to propose and enact. If it was just Aenys Blackfyre, Aegon V's actions might have been enough to convince the Blackfyres that Bloodraven's actions were simply a fluke, the lone actions of a disturbed individual which Aegon V punishes (though Aegon probably should have had Bloodraven executed and offered weregeld to Aenys's closest blood relative, with a public statement that this was restitution for a wrong and not acknowledgement of Blackfyre claims to the Iron Throne). It may not have worked, of course, but with Haegon looming over the event, this is impossible - the Blackfyres would be wise to treat any Westerosi offer with skepticism and continued warfare is guaranteed.

Thanks for the question, Anon.

SomethingLikeALawyer, Hand of the King

[aegor-bamfsteel]

I really wish Jaehaera was wife and Queen of Aegon III instead of Daenora and was alive during Blackfyre Rebellions. What would her reaction would be when Daena was passed in favour of Viserys II, as its the same thing to happen her aunt Rhaenyra(and his mother!) - would she the one who help built the friendship between Daemon and Aegor, the one who suggested the marriage of Daemon and Rohanne? Would she be disappointed in Elaena? So many things to explore imo

Killing Jaehaera off at age 10 and for Aegon to not even care was one of the most annoying parts of F&B for me. It helps undermine one of the underlying messages of the Dance; that the older generation was self-destructive and unworthy of rule, so the only ones left to build a future together were the traumatized kids…except now that Jaehaera’s dead it feels like a complete Black victory, not a Black/Green compromise stalemate like before. It also keeps the Black/Green conflict in concrete present memory, as there are still Greens around by necessity instead of the major Greens leaving court by being stupid (Unwin Peake). Apparently I’m not alone with this, because people on Reddit floated the idea of Jaehaera living to be an adult queen in the show and being an influence on the Blackfyres. Of course you’d have to give her a personality transplant—as what little we get of her calls her “a sweet, simple girl”, probably not that interested in politics or ruling, though again she was only 10—to have her make some of the decisions you’ve described.

more discussion of the AU under the cut:

Jaehaera was technically usurped herself. By the law of Andal succession, as she was Aegon II’s last remaining child, the should’ve been heiress with Aegon as her consort rather than the other way around. I could definitely see someone in that position feeling angry about Baelor annulling his marriage to Daena, essentially taking the throne away from her family that was basically obliterated in the war (because if she was disinherited despite Andal custom, why not Daena if Baelor clearly wasn’t going to sire any heirs?) due to Baelor’s hypocritical religious fervor (septons are supposed to give up all their lands and titles, so if Baelor was a Septon he should’ve gone to a sept to study, not imprison his sisters). But of course, everyone with a brain hated the Maidenvault idea.

I think any noble mother would’ve felt disappointed at her daughters for having children out of wedlock, although the circumstances were understandable (imprisoned for 10 years from tweenage/teenager to adulthood is going to take a mental toll on someone). I think with Daenaera it might’ve even been worse because Baela was her foster mother and presented her to Aegon at the Maiden’s Day Ball…only for Baela’s husband to have an affair with her youngest daughter (35 years older than she was. I’ll reiterate that in the Targ tree, several adults are grandparents before they reached 35) while Baela was alive (don’t listen to the anti Daenas. Rennifer Longwaters says point blank Alyn “lost his heart to Elaena though he was married to another”). With Jaehaera, at least the relationship wasn’t so personal (although it’s implied that Aegon II was interested in Baela), though the age gap would give any mother the creeps.

I don’t think Jaehaera would push a Daemon/Rohanne match, because Rohanne is a foreigner without militarily powerful allies to call on quickly. In OTL, the match was Aegon’s idea for a future war with Dorne. Probably a Hightower cousin would be the match she’d recommend. If she lived, I think she would’ve blocked Aegon’s claim to fathering Daemon as Daena did, thus he’d have no right to dispose of Daemon’s hand. As for Aegor, I don’t think Jaehaera being alive would change what happened to the Bracken sisters, meaning he was banished from court until Aegon’s death, and couldn’t be a childhood friend of Daemon’s. Aegor is predisposed to hate the Targaryens (for good reason), so I don’t know if he’d be willing to support yet another Targaryen branch in taking the throne, unless they were demonstrably better than the current rulers (not that it be hard)

I find it a little puzzling that some people who imagine Queen Jaehaera AUs understand that the Hightowers would feel usurped by Viserys II and want their descendant Daemon “Greenfyre” on the throne, but at the same time other people adamantly refuse to believe that the Velaryons might’ve supported Daemon for a similar reason in OTL (especially since they went from #2 house under Aegon III to …? under Aegon IV and Daeron II, who notably stacked the court with their own yes men).

It’s all a lot to imagine, for sure.

[jonquilspool]

criston cole got saint sebastian-ed this, criston cole got saint sebastian-ed that. fine okay sure. but if you don't think osgrey or butterwell had a hidden mural of daemon blackfyre on the redgrass field looking like this:

idk what to tell you bc they so did

[rynnthefangirl]

I love the Blackfyre Rebellions because half of me is like "oh of course Daeron II is the rightful King, he was a good and just ruler, the Sword is not the Kingdom, he made peace with Dorne, Bloodraven and Baelor Breakspear are awesome" and the other half of me is like "ALL HAIL THE BLACK DRAGON, DAEMON BLACKFYRE FIRST OF HIS NAME, THE KING WHO BORE THE SWORD, SON OF THE RIGHTFUL QUEEN DAENA THE DEFIANT, HE WAS THE BETTER MAN!!!!!"

[navree]

starting to think some people straight up haven't read anything grrm has ever written cuz the people involved in the first blackfyre rebellion also despised each other from day one. like, bloodraven wasn't speaking fucking metaphorically when he talked about having a brother he loved and a brother he hated, did y'all forget that?

[bbygirl-aemond]

I hope not all of Rhaenyra's kids are going to just marry who they assign them to, like Viserys, for example, the day of his wedding runs off with a kitchen maid who his in love with

anon how are you feeling now that jace and baela have just gone off the deep end

[pigeon-princess]

The lineup of our beloved ASOIAF ttrpg campaign characters!⚔️

Our amazing GM @oneirotect has set us in 207 AC between the first and second Blackfyre Rebellions (around 90 years before Game of Thrones and 50 years after the death of the last known dragon). So far we've travelled across the Narrow Sea, partied in Braavos, escaped an assassination attempt by the Golden Company, made some difficult political decisions and started romantic entanglements with likely very dire consequences.

[hed184]

Never let team Black stans and Targ fanboys gaslight you to believe that house Hightower is an enemy of house Targaryen:

1) Before the conquest, Aegon and Visenya visited the Oldtown and spent time at the Citadel.

2) The Hightowers did not march to the Field of Fire, and surrendered without a fight.

3) Aegon's reign officially began in Oldtown after he was anointed and crowned by the High Septon (who was a Hightower) in the Starry Sept, and was celebrated by the people of the city as he rode over the city on Balerion.

4) House Hightower was one of the few houses that helped the Targaryens in the First Dornish War.

5) Aegon agreed to betroth his son Maegor to Ceryse Hightower when Ceryse's uncle suggested that Maegor should be wed to his niece, and look what F&B has to say about Maegor and Ceryse: "Maegor boasted to having consummated the marriage a dozen times the night of the wedding, and those who had seen the bedding agreed that Maegor was a lusty husband."

6) Maegor recognized Ceryse as the official Queen of Westeros, even though he had two more wives, and gave all of her lands and titles back to her.

7) When Rhaena Targaryen fled from Maegor, he sent a rider to Oldtown commanding Lord Hightower to behead Rhaella (who was training to become a Septa) as punishment for her mother's betrayal. Lord Hightower refused, and imprisoned the messenger instead.

8) Alicent fetched old Jaehaerys' meals, helped him wash and dress, and read to him. On her deathbed, she said: "I want to see my sons again, and Helaena, my sweet girl. Oh... and King Jaehaerys. I will read to him, as i did when i was little. He used to say i had a lovely voice." She didn't mention her father or her brother, but she mentioned Jaehaerys. That shows how much she loved him.

9) Rhaena Targaryen (Daemon's daughter) married Garmund Hightower, and had six daughters by him. As one of the few remaining heirs to the iron throne and the sister of the King, she had no reason to marry a third son and have not one, not two, but six daughters by him if she didn't love him.

10) They remained loyal to the Targaryens during the Robert's Rebellion.

11) Unlike Jaime Lannister and Barristan Selmy, Gerold Hightower remained loyal to Rhaegar till his last breath. He refused several opportunities to leave unharmed, and eventually died while he was defending Rhaegar's son.

12) Daenaerys thinks house Hightower is among the houses that will help her take back the iron throne. She assumes correctly because the Hightowers believe in a prophecy that says Oldtown would burn and its monuments would be cast down if they opposed the "Blood of the Dragon." That's why they gave full support to neither side during the First Blackfyre Rebellion, keeping a foot in both Targaryen and Blackfyre camps.

[visenyaism]

i do believe having a cringe great bastard oc is essential to having the most fun you possibly can in the asoiaf fandom. mine is Myra Flowers (she is named specifically as an insult to her great-aunt turnip queen Myrielle) her mother is a Peake. ​her mom was not an official mistress she’s an ill-advised hookup baby who was lucky enough to come into the world with undeniable incredibly hateful grape-soda-fuck-off-purple eyes.

Myra is of course a nasty little hater and malicious gossip as a result and also kind of a mad scientist. She wants to be a pyromancer and is really into explosives especially after her siblings invent the heat seeking weirwood arrows in the first blackfyre rebellion. She ends up with the Blackfyres in that conflict because her Peake loserdom gene activated, because Daemon was going to let her blow more stuff up than Daeron who had “ethical standards,” and because she thought the Brynden/Shiera/Aegor love triangle was annoying and wanted them to be unhappy. keeps trying to make the blackfyre manhattan project happen. knows everyone’s secrets and will tell literally anyone about them. she is the worst🧡

[allyriadayne]

okay most employed people in westeros pre agot

tyland: went from westerlands bureaucrat to master of ships to lord treasurer to getting tortured to hand of a boy king #goals

elaena: first ever pensioner in the history of the iron throne. ran the master of coin office like the navy AND got a boytoy out of it.

aegor: single-handedly created the most successful mercenary company in essos and was probably the architect of the blackfyre rebellions after daemon died (flop).

larys: only person to ever enjoy being a little office guy. loves his job as head torturer so much he doesn't even care they are probably not paying him.

[goodqueenaly]

I wonder whether the deaths of Valarr and Kiera's twin sons was, at the time it happened, seen (specifically by anti-red/pro-black factions) as a sort of divine contrapasso judgment on the Targaryen dynasty generally and Baelor Targaryen specifically. While we don't know exactly when the stillbirth happened, I tend to think Kiera and Valarr were married sometime after the First Blackfyre Rebellion (when the Targaryen dynasty would have had an interest in tempering or undermining Tyroshi support for the Blackfyres in exile, perhaps by supporting a rival archonate faction). The First Blackfyre Rebellion, of course, had ended with the Redgrass Field and the deaths of not just Daemon Blackfyre but his own twin eldest sons, Aegon and Aemon. Obviously, Baelor Breakspear had not personally killed either Daemon or his sons, but he had played a major role in securing a Targaryen victory in that battle, and by extension the war.

Consequently, it might have been easy for factions already bristling over the outcome of the First Blackfyre Rebellion to believe that Valarr and Kiera's sons had died specifically because of what their grandfather, and by extension the Targaryens, had done at the Redgrass Field. Just as the stalwartly pro-Blackfyre Eustace Osgrey described the battle as a sort of Blackfyre morality play about Daemon’s goodness and Bloodraven’s evil, so perhaps other Blackfyre loyalists concluded that the gods had seen fit to let Baelor's twin grandsons, his eventual heirs, perish just as he (again, albeit indirectly) had overseen the deaths of Daemon's twin sons and heirs. The pro-Blackfyre septon Dunk and Egg recall at the start of “The Mystery Knight” had used these infants' deaths as evidence against the sinister, specifically impious influence of Bloodraven, but there might not have even been a need to lionize (dragon-ize?) Baelor Breakspear in order to use this family tragedy as a reflection of the divine will; those who resented Baelor specifically and the Targaryens generally might have also pointed to this moment to assert that  those no-good-very-bad Targaryens would be punished by the gods, exactly as they had sinned against the Blackfyres.

[warsofasoiaf]

I read a comment on another ASOIAF blog that said "Frankly, I’m much more interested in Redgrass Field, because the more I read, the less it makes any kind of sense tactically." Are they right?

I don't believe we have enough information to determine how close the Redgrass Field cleaves to tactical fidelity. Certainly, GRRM has had problems with battles that don't make sense on a tactical and/or a strategic level, but the Redgrass Field has elements that make sense: hammer-and-anvil tactics, morale failure and panic that could erupt when a leader was killed. These are things that did happen in the medieval military past, so it's a matter of seeing how the battle itself shapes out.

Thanks for the question, Impatient.

SomethingLikeALawyer, Hand of the King

[aegor-bamfsteel]

"Addison Hill? The White Owl, Michael Mertyns? Jeffory Norcross? They called him Neveryield. Red Robert Flowers? What can you tell me of them?"

"Flowers is a bastard name. So is Hill."

"Yet both men rose to command the Kingsguard...” —AFFC Jaime II

“Daemon was no more pious than a king need be, and all the great knights of the realm gathered to him. It would suit Lord Bloodraven if their names were all forgotten, so he has forbidden us to sing of them, but I remember. Robb Reyne, Gareth the Grey, Ser Aubrey Ambrose, Lord Gormon Peake, Black Byren Flowers, Redtusk, Fireball . . . Bittersteel! I ask you, has there ever been such a noble company, such a roll of heroes?” —The Sworn Sword

GRRM has used brothers supporting different sides of a war a few times (Donnel and Balon Swann during WOT5K, Arryk and Erryk Cargyll during the Dance of the Dragons), and at least one either was or later joined the Kingsguard. So I’m wondering if maybe Red Robert and Black Byren Flowers were brothers. A few houses of the Reach supported both sides of the First Blackfyre Rebellion, such as the Hightowers and Oakhearts, and maybe they were the sons of a (probably) father from that house. Then there’s the nicknames Red and Black, which would indicate which Flower brother fought for which side. Then later on Robert joined the Kingsguard (considering Da3ron II’s support of the anti-illegitimate children High Septon, as well as his actions toward his own half-siblings, I can’t imagine him naming a Flowers to the Kingsguard), and eventually becoming Lord Commander due to seniority. What became of Black Byren we don’t know, but I like to think he made it to Essos and eventually founded House Mudd. It shows the differences in how the Reds and Blacks felt toward illegitimate children as well; with one honored warrior riding out in support for another and following his family into exile, able to start a family in a place/occupation that doesn’t stigmatize illegitimate children; while his hypothetical brother supported the king and was later rewarded with a position serving his family, but his deeds aren’t well known (Loras doesn’t know who he is) and he left no familial legacy either. I also like the warring brothers motif because it brings some pathos to the conflict, which the Targaryens of all the Blackfyre Rebellions desperately need, as there’s no divided loyalties or lost family for them.

[daenerys-stormborn]

TARGARYEN WEEK Day 6: Favorite Family Dynamic - THE GREAT BASTARDS

While on his deathbed, Aegon legitimized his bastards and placed them in his line of succession after his firstborn, Daeron II.

Daemon Blackfyre  

Daemon I Blackfyre, born Daemon Waters, was the bastard son of Princess Daena Targaryen and King Aegon IV Targaryen. Daemon when denied Princess Daenerys he rose up and  swayed half the kingdom to support his claim to the Iron Throne against King Daeron II in a war called the Blackfyre Rebellion. He was the first and greatest of the Blackfyre Pretenders.   

Aegor 'Bittersteel' Rivers  

Ser Aegor Rivers, often called Bittersteel, was a renowned knight. In the First Blackfyre Rebellion, Aegor sided with Daemon against King Daeron II.  Bittersteel fled Westeros after Daemon’s death at the end of the rebellion to the Free City of Tyrosh.  Aegor founded the Golden Company, a famous mercenary organization, to stop the loss of support for the Blackfyres.  

Brynden 'Bloodraven' Rivers  

Lord Brynden Rivers, called “Lord Bloodraven”. Brynden was a Targaryen loyalist during the Blackfyre Rebellions, the Hand of Aerys I and Maekar I Targaryen, and Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch. Shiera Seastar, another bastard of Aegon IV, was his mistress. His half-brother Aegor “Bittersteel” Rivers desired Shiera also, which served in increasing the enmity between the two. Bloodraven was thought to be a sorcerer. He disappeared while ranging beyond the Wall in 252 AC. He is discovered to be The Three-Eyed Raven by Bran Stark.  

Shiera Seastar  

Shiera Seastar was the last of the Great Bastards of King Aegon IV Targaryen.  Shiera never married, but took many lovers, and numerous duels were fought for her favor. Her half-brother Brynden Rivers repeatedly proposed marriage to her. Although she refused to marry him, she did share her bed with him.Her other half-brother Bittersteel, was said to have also desired her, which only served to increase the hatred between Bloodraven and Bittersteel. There were rumors that she bathed in the blood of maidens to retain her beauty.  

[rynnthefangirl]

Is it really any wonder Daemon Blackfyre is as iconic as he is, when his parents are Daena the Defiant and Aegon the Unworthy?

Afraid it's just in his blood, like he can't just NOT try to usurp the throne let's be real now. He was born to haunt House Targaryen.