#historical accuracy

[prokopetz]

What do you mean "it's not historically accurate"? Of course it's historically accurate. It's an historically accurate 13th Century English knight using historically accurate 15th Century Italian weapons to kill historically accurate 10th Century Danish Vikings in historically accurate 17th Century France. What's not clicking?

[writingwithcolor]

It wouldn’t be historically accurate for my story to include BIPOC!

This is an argument often made about European-style fantasy media like Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings, and Disney’s Frozen. Audiences, often white, assume that due to the majority-white setting, adding any visible number of BIPOC to the story would be unrealistic.

What these critics fail to realize is that BIPOC do in fact live, and have lived, in these settings, and records of BIPOC presence in places assumed to be majority-white have been buried, written out, or not taught due to white supremacist and/or colonial bias in the field of history. There are historical European settings that were far more diverse than is often portrayed. Consider:

The Moorish Empire exerted an extensive influence over life and culture in Southern Europe from Spain from 711 to 1492

The Ottomans were heavily involved in European affairs up until the treaty of Karlowitz in 1699, but still considered a part of Europe even through the 19th century

The sheer size of the Roman Empire ensured the continued movement of people from various backgrounds within the Mediterranean well until the end of the Byzantine Empire.

“Historical accuracy” should not be used as an excuse for media to be exclusively white in its casting. While there are places which are or were predominantly white, there will always be factors like global trade and immigration that bring multiculturalism to their doors.

And even if the presence of a certain demographic is unrealistic for a certain setting? Consider that we’ve accepted far worse inaccuracies in historical fiction in the name of artistic license. Consider that our understanding of human history is, and will always be, incomplete.

Further Reading:

Historically Diverse London, “Historical Accuracy,” and Creator Accountability

Making a Black Pride and Prejudice Resonate

---

This Q&A is an excerpt from our General FAQ for Newcomers, which can be found in our new Masterpost of rules and FAQs. If you're new to Writing With Color and/or want more writing resources, check it out!

-Writing With Color

[queer-coded-camaro-driver]

Info About the 80's As Provided By My Dad, Who Graduated High School in 1987:

No boxers, no briefs, ONLY tighty-whiteys.

The Satanic Panic was something discussed primarily by adults to try and sway more voters toward Reagan.

EVERYONE had their ears pierced. Men, women, everyone. My Dad still wears his little diamond stud sometimes.

Crop tops and tube socks were a popular combo for high school and college guys.

Long hair was masculine and having decent hygiene was a big deal.

You took a girl to the roller rink on the first date to show off and then to the drive-in on the second date if she wanted to make out.

Here are some good metal bands to include in your fics: Judas Priest, Queensryche, Slayer, Ozzy, Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Metallica, Saxon, Scorpions, Ratt, Quiet Riot, Joan Jett, Pat Benetar, and Alice Cooper.

Vinyl cost between $1 and $4 on average.

Minimum wage was around $3.50.

Jorts for men. Good fuckin' lord the cutoff jorts for men...

The stoners knew everyone and everything.

If you're writing a fic or making art and have any questions for Mark about your Historical Accuracy, please feel free to send me an ask and I'll text him.

He thinks this is fun.

[emilydickinsonsghost]

It’s so funny to me when gay mentally ill nerds on the internet put more historical research into their fucked up homoerotic fanfiction than major networks do for their period dramas

[latinalivinghistory]

I have a lot of opinions on this but I would love to know what other people think.

[iliyad]

As a Hellenist, I've recently noticed a trend among various PJO fanfictions which in the big scheme of things isn't a huge deal but something I wanted to set right. And it's to do with Poseidon.

(EDIT: By Hellenist, I am referring to my degree in Classical Studies and Ancient History. I am not referring to Hellenic Polytheism.)

@percabeth4life - ATLOP: Trial By Fire, c. May 2020

@izzymrdb - And I Will Swallow My Pride (In the hopes of a final goodbye), c. August 2020

visiblyuncomfortabl - My Soul Opposes Fate, c. December 2021

@mrthology - Long Ago, That Current Caught Us, c. April 2022

@ditesfavorite - Child Surprise, c. 2022

I couldn’t find any earlier examples, but starting with IzzyMRDB’s fic, several fics make reference to Poseidon possessing a gift of prophecy or, in the case of percabeth4life’s fic, suggest that there was some sort of abundant connection between oracles and the sea. And it’s simply not true.

Poseidon has variously been associated with or considered a god of: the sea (Hom. Il. xv. 184), earthquakes (Hom. Il. xv. 190), and horses (Hom. Il. xxiii. 307), along with being referred to by various epithets connecting him to springs (Κρηνούχος), seaweed (Φύκιος) and bulls (Tαύρειος). He has never, in any primary text, been referred to as having any connection to prophecy himself.

He has, however, been attributed as the father of beings with various connections to prophecy. In some traditions the Greek sea-god Proteus, described as tending Poseidon’s seal flock by Homer (Od. iv. 365), is instead described as a son of Poseidon and king of Egypt (Apollod. ii. 5). Further, the Delphic Sybil Herophile (a prophetess) ordinarily considered the daughter of Zeus and Lamia (Pausanias 10.12.2; which also describes Lamia as a daughter of Poseidon) has been conflated with a sea-nymph daughter of Poseidon and Aphrodite bearing the same name by Scholiast (on Pindar’s Pythian Ode 8.24) which was carried over by Riordan who subsequently conflated Herophile with the Erythraean Sibyl in the Trials of Apollo series.

So, yeah. Obviously, fanfic writers don’t have to stick to historical/mythological accuracy in their works, but something I found equally strange and hilarious while reading these fics was how this particular connection between Poseidon and prophecy kept popping up. I have no idea how it’s happened, but if any of the authors (or others in the fandom) do have an interest in accuracy, keep in mind in the future that there is no direct evidence of Poseidon himself having any connection to prophecy. Even taking Proteus (and arguably Herophile) into account, that’s only one or two children of well over 30 attributed offspring who have been described with any connection to prophecy at all, which statistically doesn’t point to their existence being evidence of their prophetic gift having anything to do with their father.

[talesofedo]

My re-design of Mizu, the protagonist of Blue Eye Samurai.

The original series design for Mizu gives her a couple of expensive accessories, specifically her traveling cloak and her eyeglasses. (And yes, I realize she is supposed to have made her own eyeglass frames, but Japanese manufacture of glass was still new at that time and the lenses themselves would likely have been expensive.)

I kept the travel cloak design, but as many surviving originals are made from striped fabric, I chose to go with that.

She's wearing tattsuke bakama, rather than having separate, removable kyahan (gaiters). This was a really common style for traveling, and since Blue Eye Samurai takes place in the 1650s, I went with a contrasting, rather than matching, waist tie. That style of contrasting colors would have been a bit more of an old fashioned look at the time already.

She's wearing straw waraji instead of the black sandals she has in the series, and warajigake tabi, tabi with reinforcements in the toe split and the front of the foot that made them more durable for walking long distances.

I switched the short, samue-like jacket she's wearing in the series for an actual kimono, but used the water pattern of the fabric she is using as an obi in the series as the pattern for her kimono.

Since she's trying to pass for a ronin on her travels, I switched her hat for a sandogasa, which was a common design for traveling, and gave her a short sword in addition to her meteoric iron sword. (The lack of samurai carrying two swords in the series drove me absolutely bonkers.) I kept the un-wrapped rayskin design of her tsuka, but I'm not sure how I feel about it. 😅

I also changed the design of her eyeglasses to one that was common during the Edo period, using string instead of folding temples. The eyeglass design I'm using here is from the oldest known pair in Japan, Tokugawa Ieyasu's reading glasses, but that same style was worn right up until the introduction of modern western eyeglasses at the end of the Edo period.

[wonderlands-ass]

I can't decide if I think Jedediah can or can't read.

Like the idea that he can't read explains the part of secret of the tomb (3rd movie) where he and Octavius are in Pompeii, only Octavius even bothered trying to read the sight and he'd didn't even question it nor try to read it himself.

But then again in his real life (in 1800s) he learned to write and learned latin, so he can most definitely read with that argument.

But that also leaves the idea , does he have the capability to understand Octavius when he speaks latin?

That does give the idea what if Octavius talks with some of his most trusted soldiers or something, about how he's starting to develop a crush or already is in love with Jedediah. And Jed just doesn't know how to deal with that.

Considering the fact we stick with the historical accuracy, Jed might also have some not great thoughts with homosexuality, in his life Jed was pretty religious with a pretty *high* moral compass.

(please correct me if ik wrong about something here).

But this is just with the thought of Jedediah, I've not researched Octavius enough to really make q rant about him.... Yet

So yeah... Thoughts

[simplyalexeiofficial]

Everytime someone complains about lack of historical accuracy in Bridgerton, a queen bee is struck down in her prime.

Save the bees, people!

[lilylady1412]

"Meine Süsse, weine nicht."

"In the middle of The Great War, Major Gilbert Beilschmidt fell in love with Annaliese Von Edelstein- an Austro-Hungarian Red Cross nurse who took care of him during his convalescence. A woman whose soft, beautiful lilac eyes were easily showing sympathy to the soldiers on both sides of the battlefield.

...And that was how their doomed fate started. For her, to be kind in the wrong time. For Major Beilschmidt, to let his emotions beaten his reason. But never shall the Major regret his fatal decision when he protected Miss Edelstein, because to still maintain humanity, love and be loved in the most horrid time would be and always a blessing."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Commission for one of my OTP made by Denos, a truly lovely person. (because OP cannot freaking draw even in stick figure)

You can check Artist's other works via:

Twiiter: @denossu

Ins: denos.baa

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

OP's note:

Meine Süsse, weine nicht: My sweet, don't cry.

I truly like the name Annaliese for FemAustria (NyoAustria). But I think I will call her Anna for short if I post about her again.

Feel kinda bad when I have to bully Fem Austria in my story because she is my muse (such a beauty, especially when she cries. Maybe that's why I love being mean to her. I'm sorry my princess!).

For me, Prussia x Fem Austria always have an element of poetic tragedy which I craved for. So in my universe, they only got their happiness in modern setting where they don't have to worry about complicated politics and wars (this apply for both nation ver or human au).

But Gilbert deserves all my meanness and I'm not feel remorse a bit. LoL.

[v0id-seajay]

family portrait of my hobw caspian (in red) and her family!!! (her wife ella, and two kids cosette and atticus). and this is based on “colonel john fortnum and family” by tilly kettle in 1775! this is one of my proudest works and it took me forever, especially because i started it in october and abandoned the sketch until january because i thought it was NOT gonna work out, but i kept working on it and i’m happy with how it turned out 💪 i was trying to capture the vibe of a family portrait they’d have on the wall in the castle. also apologies for posting non-canon fable ocs in the fable tag but i hope you guys like my blorbos

[prokopetz]

I love it when webcomic artists go hard on historical accuracy in totally incongruous contexts. Whether it's Tracy Butler agonising over whether the specific model of vacuum-tube radio that appears in the background of a single panel in a comic about cats shooting each other with guns is period appropriate, or Daisy McGuire giving a character 1970s punk fashion in the year 1904, but taking care to depict the safety pins in her ears as a type that actually existed in that year, that's what keeps bringing me back to a comic.

[suzannahnatters]

This is your periodic reminder that prior to the Protestant reformation in approximately the 1500s churches did NOT contain seating, and that consequently each time anyone writes a medieval historical or medieval-coded fantasy church that contains pews, another part of my soul shrivels and dies

see, people either stood or if they needed to, they brought a folding stool *edna mode voice* NO PEWS

the historical reason for the change is that in the 1500s the Protestants started preaching really long sermons and also people started throwing their stools at the pulpit when they didn't like what was going on up there

(ok that last part is a bit exaggerated but also please do look up Jenny Geddes sometime, a Presbyterian Icon)

[can0n-fodder]

One of the things I've noticed about the debate on historical accuracy in costume in period films is that the "artistic license" and "reimagining" lines are reserved almost entirely for dramas in which women make up the main characters. In which actresses are being made up to appeal to modern beauty ideals, which is-- contrary to claims -- the real reason behind costumers and makeup artists rejecting historical accuracy. No one wants to see Dakota Fanning with a plucked back hairline and lead white face paint. No one wants a size 2 actress in a REAL 18th c. corset, which actually increases your waistline.

When historical accuracy is no longer sexy to the modern taste, that's when it gets disregarded, or laughingly dismissed as "restrictive" and boring.

You know when historical accuracy in aesthetics is NOT dismissed? War movies. Period set films in which men are the main characters. Those costumers and makeup artists will take a GQ hotest man of the year and happily transform him into a groaty, muttonchops sideburns 19th century colonialist without blinking. They will even dye the mustache hair near his face yellowed so it looks like he had a life time of tobacco use. They will track down antique clothes and copy them to the thread, they will film with actual antiques in the actors' hands. No effort spared to make that trek through the 1910s Amazon look accurate. And why?

Because men looking sexy is not a requirement. It's not important enough to damage the integrity of the film. But women being unattractive? That's too much.

[i-is-surrounded-by-idjits]

I love the GoT series, especially for its historical accuracies (I could talk about them for daaaaaays), but I get really annoyed with the age gap debate with ships without taking into account the historical setting (especially Sansa Stark and Sandor Clegane). this has annoyed me to the point where I am writing a book to address the social construct just to tear it down.

In the past noble girls were married early. Not usually as soon as they had their first period (although legal), this was usually delayed until 16-18 years due to negotiations (it was a trade deal). However, most nobles would be married before they turned 20, unless they were undesirable for some reason (this could be appearance, family scandal, illness, physical health, disability, or personality), and they would quickly become known as spinsters - we think of spinsters being unmarried woman past middle age, but in the past, this could be used for an unmarried 25 y/o. Reminder that 'paedophile' refers to the attraction of prepubescent children (by UK law this is under 13).

Women married early for biological reasons; they have a short fertility period (while some men can keep fathering sons for decades; think Walder Frey). From first blood to menopause, a woman had to be married off as quickly as possible to ensure they had the best chance of providing as many children as possible. Menopause is currently between 45-50 yrs (with some biological variation), but in the past, this could be as early as 35 - unclear due to natural variation, but health and hygiene contribute to fertile health and the decline would be noted as the end for many noble women.

Men sometimes married later, usually for education, status, or military reasons. So one could expect a man not to marry until in their 20s (of higher social standing). Commoners skew the statistics, as they would marry at any age, and usually more love-matches (no need for social staus debates and political marriages), however, common men would be expected to have a job in order to provide for a wife and family, and so would sometimes be older, but the

If a man needed a wife, say windowed at 30. Guess what, they'd start at the beginning looking for a teenager. There was no point marrying an older woman (if there were any that were unmarried, that is). Widows were often off the cards if they had children as they would still belong to their dead spouse's family, and the social 'undesirables' would still be undesired by a man seeking their second or third wife. For example, Æthelred the Unready first married Ælfgifu - she was 4 years younger and perfectly normal. She died aged 32. His second wife Emma, was 18 years younger (aged 18 at the time) - a much larger age gap and unseemly by modern standards, but Æthelred would not have married a woman in her 30s whose fertility could decline shortly after marriage simply to marry someone closer to his own age.

Childhood and teenagers are relatively new terms. In the past, they were better defined as prepubescent and of marital age (postpubescent). Meaning you were considered almost adult once you could reproduce. To view historical fiction by modern standards, laws, and norms, is a mistake. One should understand the history to better understand the subject material and fictional writings it has inspired.

The best way to understand this is to understand why marriage was invented: to produce legitimate heirs. This is why infidelity was viewed differently for men and women - a man is unfaithful, it is a distraction and a sin, but bastards have no claim. A woman is unfaithful, this brings into question the legitimacy of her existing children, and she has wasted almost a year providing someone else a child. Not such a big deal now, but childbirth was also dangerous; they could literally die due to an affair... even before the husband found out about it. Therefore, ensuring the bride had enough time to produce children was essential. Bear in mind that during the Middle Ages, one could get an annulment for infertility in many countries (and still can) - as this is a breach of the marriage contract.

P.S. - This is historical thinking. I am pro same-sex marriage and believe this should have been legalised when marriage changed the definition to a declaration of love (circa 18th century)... but that's a religious debate for another time.

Back to the topic; Sansa Stark would not see age as an issue really. Although she hoped for a love match (and thus naturally inclined to someone near her own age), socially, she would see nothing wrong with Sandor Clegane based on age. Clegane would have had issues with any attraction until she reached 'adulthood' (before her first period) as this would have been considered immoral, however, once deemed an adult, this no longer poses an issue legally. Lysa was 21 years younger than Jon when they married - she protested this based on age, but realistically she only protested as she had hoped to marry Petyr.

[noodlenoises]

Letting Go Of "Historical Accuracy" In Your High Fantasy

When you think of high fantasy, what comes to mind first? For many readers and writers, it’s JRR Tolkien’s Middle Earth — and there’s a reason for that. Even with The Hobbit published almost 90 years ago, Tolkien’s world and stories still inspire much of the genre today. From video games to books to movies, the worlds are still being built on that blueprint: low technology, full of kingdoms and…