#i find that i enjoy the dream smp as a flawed story

[dyketubbo]

the thing is in my mind i have such a clear way of how to properly incorporate ctubbo killing c!aimsey into the story in my head and i have like a whole dynamic in there but it makes me feel so incredibly insane because all there is in canon is just. ctubbo felt a little quirky that day killed a woman and laughed it off like.

[crimeboyisms]

One of my favorite aspects of c!Tommy's character is how his traits would ordinarily be assigned to a female deuteragonist, and are instead given to him, arguably the main male "protagonist" of his story. When I say this, I am referring to his personality, as well as the way his character is treated by both the other members of the server and the audience themselves. A character who seems to be similar in nature to c!Tommy, at least at a surface level, is Asuka Langley, one of the two female deuteragonists in Neon Genesis Evangelion. She is introduced to the audience as a young spitfire of a pilot, one who is both proud and confident as well as abrasive in her personality. She is shown to be passionate, easily irritable, and stubborn with a tendency to default to aggressive outbursts as her emotional outlet. Alongside this, she is deeply insecure about her worth as an individual, and is depicted within the show as believing herself to be "worthless" outside of her assigned role as a pilot. Though not a perfect mirror of c!Tommy by any means, as far as female deuteragonists go Asuka is a prime example of how several core aspects of c!Tommy's character could typically be seen in that role despite his status as one of the protagonists of the Dream SMP. Another trait he displays which is not as relevant in Asuka's character, but is often found in character's of that type, is his "kind but not nice" personality. His compassion and vulnerability hide beneath the bold and brash persona he presents to others, and those parts of himself shine through in important moments of clarity, adding depth to his character and giving the audience a reason to love him. In fiction, this type of character is perceived by the majority of the audience, and even other characters within the story, to be obnoxious and irritating, and is seen as "over-reactive and over-emotional" when analyzed with a shallow lens. Characters with these flaws are often looked upon with derision, and are in general less favored than their counterparts. To see c!Tommy's embody these character tropes as the main character of his story is something I find quite interesting, and it's one of the reasons I enjoy his character.

[tobi-smp]

Ive seen a lot of your posts and i find many of the things you say to be facinating and eye opening when it comes to the dsmp.

But when it comes to your character or story critical posts it feels very... hateful? Hateful isnt exactly the right word because its clear you enjoy the dsmp. But perhaps frustrating and annoyed. Its like you expect these random minecrafters to be professional story boarders and directors?

I feel like a part of this fandom has forgotten that the story originally started on improv. Sure, the story could be more balanced since its scripted now.

And dont get me wrong its important to talk about flaws! But I feel like you and other people are putting these mcyts on a high pedestal. These people aren't in an animation studio trying to develope this detailed plot where something mentioned in season 1 will make sense in season 6. They're just friends who one day decided to make a story. Sure some of them take the story more seriously than others, but should everyone be held up to the same standard?

I think we should just let the silly little minecrafters do their silly little roleply.

1: I treat the dream smp like I treat all of the other media that I consume, because I find meta analysis And Critique fun.

critique is actually what I have the most fun writing, because I’m a very adhd and autistic person and it can be difficult for me to get my thoughts to flow into a coherent idea without a point of Focus. I’ll have a dozen ideas that I’m chewing on for hours, days, weeks, months, or even years that suddenly click in to place with the right Idea, the right wording, the right trigger thanks to thoughts I’ve had digesting a new lore stream or to someone else’s post. and that’s a really rewarding process for me.

I don’t critique because I hate the dream smp, I critique because being involved in this media and this fandom made me Feel Something and I want to unwind what that is. and getting at the bottom of those feelings means being honest. and that’s fun ! I enjoy being able to do that and I enjoy watching Other People do it too.

I Can get worked up and emotional, especially in the direct aftermath of a stream, but that’s a part of what makes it fun. getting worked up over something that’s ultimately harmless and picking apart what it makes you Feel is a really low stakes way of sharpening your analysis and capacity for self reflection, as well as just being, you know, Entertaining For Some People.

and what I Feel doesn’t have to be negative either, I’m just more likely to post a critique because, like I said, I am fantastically adhd. people know me as being very well worded, but trying to do analysis when I’m really invested in something is like trying to do crossword on a trampoline. my dms get my stream of consciousness in that regard fjkldaslkjadfs

2: the idea that we shouldn’t critique the dream smp because it’s done by amateurs has always been a take that reads as diminishing the quality of not only the dream smp, but of non-published media.

yes it Is a good idea to temper your expectations for what is realistically possible for these people in this context in this medium, because there Needs to be margin of error for live media. the dream smp has challenges that tv shows simply do not, and that’s part of what makes it as special as it is.

but to say that we’re not allowed to Think about it, that we shouldn’t take it seriously as a creative work and should just instead sit back and let it wash over us because it’s a Silly Little Minecraft Story just overtly devalues the story that’s being told and the work that’s gone into telling it.

some of the best stories I’ve ever experienced have been independent work from either a single creator or a small team of creators posted on the internet, often times from people just starting or who are new to the medium they’re telling it in. The Dream Smp Is One Of Those Stories.

I’m not comparing the dream smp to a blockbuster or something that’s been carefully crafted with millions of dollars and hundreds of hands like Arcane. I’m comparing the dream smp to Itself. to what it’s Already accomplished through it’s story telling and through it’s medium with the Exact Same limitations that it has now (minus the horrendous scheduling issues, which is out of the creators’ control but still something that could’ve and still Can Be better worked around).

the dream smp has some of the most compelling storytelling I have ever been a part of and it’s Because of its medium, not despite it. and that’s Exactly why I’m as invested as I am, Exactly why I’m not just going to turn my brain off and say that it’s just a silly little minecraft story.

every time I see someone say that it’s Just A Minecraft Roleplay and we shouldn’t think about it that much I remember quackity saying that this was the most fulfilling work he’s done in his entire 8 year career, and it can’t help but read as disrespectful to me. or at least as Misguided.

it’s Okay if you don’t like critical analysis. I do it because it’s fun and makes my engagement with a piece of media I like Better, and nobody else has to do if it that isn’t true for them. but this idea that people get that critical analysis Must stem from hatred, Must stem from impossibly high expectations, Must stem from a place of disrespect is a strange one that I think we as a fandom need to drop.

[mt-words]

Can we get some dream smp fandom positivity posts? As someone who posts mostly analysis and has never once had someone say anything rude in response, I think we perceive the fanbase as more toxic than it is because of a few outspoken individuals. Y'all are pretty chill and I like you.

In no particular order-

I love that Eret’s fans come up with such cool theories, I swear she could give you two sentences of lore and I could see three five page essays on what it could mean about their character within an hour and each of them is unique, intricate, and makes logical sense.

I love the compilations Foolish fans make of him doing ridiculous things on stream, he’s a fun guy that never fails to make me laugh and everything I see from them embodies that energy to me.

I love how creative Hannah’s fans are, you take the awesome ideas she has and turn them into the most amazing designs and concepts.

I love that Techno’s fans might write a ten page essay about his character or just say they enjoy watching him do crime, and you never know which it will be because both come from the same people.

I love how Philza’s fans embrace everything he does with so much enthusiasm. His chat is a flock of crows? Excellent, they can work with that, you will see fifty incredible pieces of art and a hundred theories in the first hour and they’re just getting started.

I love that Niki’s fans are so careful to pay attention and not miss any details. It has been ages and I still see occasional mentions and theories about the “Dear Friend” letter.

I love that Fundy’s fans are very empathetic, they love to find and elaborate on the connections between characters and that’s pretty cool!

I love Tommy’s fans for their energy. They seem passionate about making things right and hopeful that no matter what your situation is things can get better. I’ve seen so many breathtakingly emotional art pieces from this side of the fandom.

I love that George’s fans unapologetically simp for him but then catch me off guard by making deep insights about his character.

I love how Bad’s fans are as genuinely sweet as he is, they’re willing to really look at everything that makes up a character and see the tragedy of it and have compassion about things. And some just want to see an egg rule the server, c'mon, it would be funny.

I love the running gag with Skeppy fans of making Skeppy critical posts, y’all are hilarious.

I love how Purpled fans play up his lack of lore as him being an incredibly powerful cryptid, and they’re right. He totally carried the wither fight on Nov 16th.

I love the balance Quackity fans have between a love of humor, justice, and darker topics. I think like Quackity they are often underestimated and thought of as the jokester side of the fandom to an extent, and then I start reading things they write and it’s well thought out and insightful.

I love that Tubbo’s fans love chaos, cute things, or both to an unhealthy extent. Seeing anything from them reminds me of princess unikitty in all the best ways, and then they turn around and throw a super in depth meaningful analysis at me in the next breath.

I love everything about Sapnap’s fans. Y'all are perfect. The writing and art from the born in fire line? Gold.

I love how Jschlatt fans are generally chill and just enjoy whatever they want to. Their favorite Manburg president was the one who publicly executed his right hand man and gave Dream a resurrection book for firepower, and he looked good doing it.

I love that Callahan has fans. You people are dedicated and I respect it. The fact that Callahan was one of the first names to pop up when everyone was trying to figure out who Harpocrates was even though he rarely involves himself with plot? Your influence knows no bounds.

I love that Alyssa’s fans are simply too powerful. She hasn’t played on the smp since way before I started watching and there are still people defending her barn and drawing pictures of her.

I love that Antfrost’s fans have taken so many ideas and just ran with them and made them awesome. Like him practicing magic? Perfect, he now carries potions and gets a wizard hat.

I love that Dream fans look at a character who has been portrayed as pure evil from many points of view and understand that Everyone has motives based on their situation, even if it isn’t handed to us in an easily understood way.

I love how Jack’s fans are so ready to support any action he takes. Crawling out of hell? Incredible. Killing a child? Good for him! Go team Rocket. Grieving the same child? Learning healthy coping, he’s the coolest.

I love that Connor eats Pants fans are the most reasonable people in this fandom. This is terrifying. Thank you for your service, you always make me smile.

I love that Punz fans unapologetically just love their capitalist mercenary. As they should, his presence always tips the scales and everything he does brings more depth to the characters and plots he interacts with.

I love how much Ranboo fans love complexity. Most of them aren’t afraid to admit that their favorite characters are flawed, because aren’t those flaws what make them interesting and relatable?

I love the variety of Hbomb fans. Half of them may be embracing the cat maid bit while the other half goes on about how impactful and cool L’cast is, but they’re all super chill.

I appreciate that Puffy fans take the time to understand so many perspectives. So many posts I see involving her tie in lore from other characters and find interesting ways to connect them and build them together, kind of like Puffy herself.

I love that Wilbur fans seem to approach the story like they’re solving a puzzle, carefully piecing together details from months apart to figure out how and why everything goes down.

I love how hard Ponk fans work to spread awareness of how awesome he is. Ponk says and does wonderful things and is very fun to watch. I never would have tried his content without them.

I love that Karl fans saw him wanting to be involved and started coming up with such cool ideas around his character that they actually made them canon. Correct me if I’m wrong, wasn’t the time traveler thing a fan theory at first?

I love the creativity Sam fans have with his design and their willingness to discuss complex moral issues. Sam is involved in some heavy lore stuff but he and his fans keep things entertaining and calm.

I’m sure I missed some things, please feel free to add on!

[numbernero]

some confusing but maybe not Ranting about dream smp;

I am gonna Get all mad again how Do people have such bad lore takes Bro i actually hate those ppl who dont get dsmp is a story,,, like it was fun hanging out in like early 2020 summwr but thats it

And no ppl cant just "stop talking about exile" bc bro what???? If a story includes a abuse and suicide plotlines, i am GONNA TAKE IT SERIOUSLY like GRRRRRRRRRR i am so mad at rhe people who Just dont take lore seriously but then they still talk aboyt it and post such isnane bad opinions?? like shut up!!! shush!!!

And i hate when dream stans r so desperately trying to find reasons to believe c!dream is a good guy. HE IS NOT. he is a VILLAIN. HE IS A BAD PERSON!!! ur fav cc plays a villain and a shit guy,,, ACCEPT IT. I dont see this type of behavior from wilbur fans who enjoy c!wilburs character. We all agree he is not rhe besst person and he is heavily flawed and be hurts the people around him and it cannot be excused.

Its just so SO insane to me That people can see a abuser character and tell me that him abusing someone didnt matter or that the victim deserved it ???? Like this shit wouldnt fly in any other fandom , at all. Grrrr.

Like if some DC fan said that Joker abusing Harley was ok and it doesnt matter and THAT HARLEY DESERVED IT, people Would straight Up kill that fan. ???? Like just because a story is told in Minecraft it doesnt mean that its not serious??? A story can be told in many different forms and mediums, miencraft is not an exception.

[balillee]

my unpopular dsmp opinions, some of which genuinely should be popular

c!dream has crossed the moral event horizon and is irredeemable. once you cross that threshold, you're no longer a 'morally grey' character.

pre-recorded, heavily produced lore killed the lore. it was cool, sure, but you completely misunderstand the magic that the smp had when people watched it initially. the story is improv and that's how we like it. we can tell the cc's have lost interest in it, you can admit that to us, we'll understand, just stop lying to me.

c!dream's pov isn't necessary to understand his character or his motivations. if you've watched literally any c!primeboys stream he's basically spelled it out for you.

i don't understand how fans can dislike l'manberg or have claimed to be against it since the beginning. i honestly don't get it. what's so bad about wanting your own spot where you make your own rules and skirt accountability that has been used to technically oppress you before - and, before someone who never saw the earlier streams tries to disagree with this, the og l'manberg crew were imprisoned for shit that everyone else on the server was practically encouraged to do. also, what do you have against fun and happiness?

i think some of you forget that 'hybrids' aren't a thing, discounting c!ranboo. there's no piglin hybrids, c!techno is just a pig. there's no avian hybrids, c!phil is just a man with wings. there's no creeper hybrids, c!sam is just a creeper who's indecently exposed from the hips down. canonically there's no hybrids, and therefore no hybrid discrimination. people ran with that concept too much.

the loss and the fanon rewriting of the early lore up until pogtopia has ruined fandom perception of c!dream and the og l'manberg boys. c!tommy is more morally white than you think he is, and c!dream has always been a villain - he massacres and he kills and he destroys and he schemes and he always has broken his own rules. no wonder the boys wanted their own space after how they were treated.

i think ranboo oftentimes forgets his own lore. he brings stuff up that c!ranboo may have done, such as exploding the community house to frame c!tommy, holding onto Cat, and it goes absolutely nowhere. we've gotten all of these developments in his story but they have never been expanded on, and we're nowhere closer to figuring out his relationship to c!dream and what his other side is and honestly i see no hope that we'll be any closer to knowing even by the end of the year.

your characters don't all have to be morally grey for the story itself to be morally grey. this is fiction - some people can be nothing but evil and others can be nothing but good. being purely good or evil doesn't mean that you're one dimensional, either.

c!dream apologists have ruined c!dream for me. he's not a good person. how about you let me enjoy a villain for who he actually is, rather for than your percieved woobified ragdoll you pass off as c!dream.

the story was better when there was a central writer. it was brilliant back when wilbur wrote it to be that the environment drives the characters and the story, and it was really good in early s2 up until techno's execution day when it was more character driven. since then, the amount of autonomy people have over their characters without any central 'director', as it were, has been a detriment to the story overall. there needs to still be one overarching figure or director or writer.

not everyone is a main character. just because they have a pov, doesn't mean they're a main character. some characters have such little impact on the overall plot and describing everyone as a main character oversaturates the story and makes some characters seem more important than they are.

the egg lore had so much potential up until it didn't. all that built up threat that we were expecting and we still don't even know what the egg wants really other than just controlling people. does it hatch?

genuinely, if there's no major plot developments by the end of the year (and let's be honest, it's a very big possibility at this point), a few of the more prominent members of the server should do a podcast style stream talking about where the story would have gone, because at least then we would have gotten somewhat closer to a conclusion.

c!techno is a villain and an asshole and a bad person. he stops caring for people once their interests don't align with his or if they look at him funny. he makes meta-jokes about his own tyrannical and oppressive nature. stop taking that away from him. he's a bad person. cc!techno does a fabulous job portraying that in a comedic manner and the balancing of him being a deeply flawed person with deeply flawed morals and ideas with his comedically-portrayed stubbornness and lack of willingness to hear out opposing viewpoints is incredible. i want to like characters who are arseholes for the sake of being arseholes, and who refuse to take into account the hurt they've caused either out of self-righteousness or because they don't care, so let me. he's the anti-peacemaker, LET ME HIM ENJOY HIM FOR THAT!!!!

i think tommy and wilbur's way of doing lore is my favourite. relies heavily on improv, voice acting, sprite acting and facial expressions. really shows off the acting props and they pull off the emotional moments well for the insanity of the creative medium.

i'm not a fan of fan-music. i find songs about media i'm into difficult to listen to. coincidentally i'm also not a fan of shit like slam poetry or live music/musicals/pantomimes.

the death of l'manberg killed people's motivation to go on the server casually. i've talked about it more in depth before, but destroying what was a central, driving environment for the story killed momentum and motivation. imagine in an episode of she-ra, the princess alliance just nuke the freight zone and all of the members of the horde just have to deal with it. that would be shit.

until season 3 has some momentum, i'm counting the end of the smp as january 20th. that had a conclusion. season 3 has... whores, technoblade and tommyinnit. that's about it.

i wasn't a fan of the development of c!tubbo joining las nevadas. i preferred snowchester and the walled city conflict. give c!tubbo some backbone and some badassery. also tubbo where's the fucking nuke bro if you're shelving that plotline just tell us on like an alt stream what the plan was i beg

add like 2 or 3 new people to the server so that michael mcchill has someone to talk to and so that there's something always happening on the server. it gives the og's more motivation to return if things are happening in and out of canon and it'll help with momentum, and who knows? maybe they can write their own story/stories.

i really think that c!sam is an underrated character. he's multilayered, extremely interesting, and the dichotomy of his loyalty to his job and how far down the rabbithole that's taken him versus the genuine love he has for his friends that drives him to do what he does out of wanting to do right by them is brilliant. i don't talk about c!sam enough.

STOP HAVING FUCKING VILLAIN ARCS!!! I'M FUCKIN SICK OF IT!!!! i want to see more characters who see everyone else being absolute selfish, abhorrent cunts and go 'if nobody else is going to be a good person, i fucking will'. GIVE ME SOME MORAL WHITENESS!!! IT'S INTERESTING AND MORALLY GOOD CHARACTERS ARE FUN!!!

let tommyinnit build cobblestone towers. everyone bullied him too much for how ugly they were and the one he built outside of the prison looked genuinely really nice. it gives the boy something to do.

i'm a fan of the revive book and the canon lives system. don't ask me why, but i think it might just be the morbidity of it. it adds to c!dream's god complex persona, and i think the fragility of death itself is a really fun concept. not enough fan cc's have made connections with that and c!mumza, and it could make for cool fanfic.

ranboo your house is fucking ugly. it's an eyesore

c!niki, and to some extent now c!jack and c!fundy, are boring me and ruining my mood. i think c!jack is the closest to being an actually interesting sympathetic villain, mainly because nobody else seems to realise that c!niki is a villain. not a good one imo, but she's a villain. c!jack just has the problem of starting a new project over and over and over and over again and because of the slow in momentum for the primary cast, there hasn't been a lot of recent development for him.

not really a dream smp opinion, but if philza went full geordie accent, i would love it. i want him to, in canon, say shit like 'me n ye' instead of 'me and you' and use geordie dialect. i want him to be physically unintelligible because it's funny.

i don't really know what's up with c!foolish but i think he's a dumbass. he had a while to think about c!q's proposal and then changed his mind about joining the guy to admitted to letting him die just because. moron

i wish there was more c!eret lore. i wish he was an actual king with an actual kingdom and actual subjects and royal advisors. c!eret is far too fucking cool to be the king of nothing and nobody. fatten up the kingdom and the castle with people who work with c!eret, and don't just make it tyrannical and dictator-y to prove the point of the server's 'anarchists'. make it a healthy working environment, please - if you want moral greyness, have 'anarchists' who claim to care about the welfare of the server oppose a kingdom of happy people under a fair and just ruler because their ideologies clash.

the server needs more characters who oppose anarchy in more peaceful ways, or passively wish for systems to be a part of. i think a chaos vs order conflict ending only in mutual understanding where everyone understands that they should just leave each other alone would slot nicely into the story that's been created so far.

you need to have watched all of the previous arcs to understand the story. i've seen people argue that they don't need to know about earlier lore to understand the prison, but that's the equivalent of only watching the final season of pretty little liars and expecting to understand the context of what's going on.

some characters aren't that morally grey. some characters, take c!tommy for example, are definitely on the whiter side for the morality scale, he's just an asshole. he's abrasive and rude and a dickhead but he also doesn't agree with terrorism, he's patriotic, he strives for a better world, he's apologetic, but he's also a fucking BITCH.

you can add onto this if you want, but not if you're a c!dream apologist. nobody likes your opinions

[rebelpeas]

captain puffy lore q&a!

notes taken while listening to her stream tonight (july 14 stream, “[DreamSMP] Lore School and Lore Q&A!”) feel free to add on if i missed anything - i probably zoned out a bit and missed some questions!

- she stressed multiple times throughout the q&a segment that her character was never intended to play a parental role. while she’s happy with a sort of guardian/protector role, she isn’t as much a fan of her character being a parent. the reason she’s not a huge fan of c!dream (or other characters besides c!foolish) being c!puffy’s child is because people then get angry about c!puffy making chaotic decisions because they view her in a purely responsible/parental role. she likes for her character to be there as a mentor for the younger characters, but still wants the freedom to make chaotic decisions for her character without being criticized for it!

- she doesn’t like when anything her character does is immediately related to other people’s characters. an example she offered is that if she were to blow something up, people would say “that’s not something a good parent figure would do.”

- if she were to have take a different direction with her character, she would’ve done a “chaotic girlboss” character type.

- when asked whether she prefers unplanned lore or big lore streams, she says she enjoys both. she finds semi-lore very fun because she loves interacting with chat and likes how community-focused unplanned and improv lore can be. big lore is fun for her too, but because of the high expectations and having to be zoned in to the story, she doesn’t get to interact with the chat.

- thinks of her chat as if they’re “looking down on” the dream smp universe rather than a physical being within it. referred to it as celestial beings and the dream smp being “the universe that we control” - chat is the stars that the captain navigates by.

- puffychu - “i don’t know. we’ll have to find out about that.” she says puffy and niki’s characters have ended up on completely different sides, so now they are trying to figure that out.

- her character’s skin has something more to its design than just being half sheep, half human. she says there’s an element that has more to do with her character’s “personal struggle” than with her species.

- she gave a hint about the next c!puffy lore stream: “it relates in a way to a billie eilish song. i can’t say which one because it would give too much away!”

- something in lore is going to greatly affect c!puffy eventually. “she’s going to have a switch sometime soon”

- quite a bit of c!puffy’s personality is influenced by cc!puffy’s personality. the character is evidently based quite a bit on how cc!puffy grew up as a child, which we will see more in later lore!

- c!puffy’s character flaws are that they’re a perfectionist and doesn’t want to disappoint people, and in turn ends up not being able to do things for themselves. they also have lots of patience until she’s pushed too far and then will snap.

- she would like to be more involved with the las nevadas lore!

- she was asked about tommy’s therapy and whether it has been happening “off-screen” as tommy has implied, but she said she was going to save the question for another day.

- c!puffy doesn’t necessarily agree with being an anarchist. they aren’t big on titles or labels, but they do respect order. they’ve taken on titles not because they want to but because it’s necessary to keep the peace of things.

- c!puffy uses any pronouns, but usually she/her mostly because so far no one has referred to her otherwise in lore.

- c!puffy’s alignment is chaotic good!

- c!puffy, c!ant, and c!bad have made up since the red banquet and there are few hard feelings between them. c!puffy felt less hurt by c!hannah since she was a new member to the smp and they hadn’t had any chance to form a relationship.

- when asked which character’s development surprised her the most, she answered that she really likes tommy and tubbo’s arcs, but bad’s caught her the most off-guard because of how different c!bad’s arc has turned out from how cc!bad is.

- she says tubbo’s character has gone through just as much as tommy even though people tend to focus more on tommy, and c!tubbo is one of her favorite lore characters.

- her favorite character dynamics are puffy and bad (she finds it fun how they go from a fun friendship duo as ccs into polar opposites in lore), tubbo and ranboo (she likes the very different dynamic they have from tubbo and tommy, saying tubbo didn’t replace tommy with ranboo but rather has a different kind of relationship to explore his character in), and tommy and techno (she likes how techno is a big and powerful anarchist and still was protective of tommy).

- her favorite canon character is c!dream. she says while his character arc always involves manipulation and dark aspects, they’re very clever and there’s always an interesting reason to be found behind what they do.

- as for her character’s thoughts on c!dream, c!puffy feels more disappointed in dream than guilty about his actions. puffy says she’s “always seen the underlying good” in dream and so is disappointed in him for what he’s done.

- she says sam’s character is very difficult. he tries to do what in his mind is the lawfully correct thing to do, even if it’s a bad thing to do or might hurt someone else.

- her favorite build is foolish’s summer home area!

- she thinks c!wilbur has been the best villain so far.

(( there might be more q&a later as she’s still streaming, but this is all i’ve got tonight! i’m off to bed, i’ll skim the rest of the vod tomorrow for any other tidbits i missed! ))

[scoutpologist]

me at 1 am - okay i should sleep

also me at 1 am in my notes app - c!dream sort of ruins the moral ambiguity of the dream smp and feels like a villain character from a children’s story inserted into something much more complicated than that. most characters except for c!dream are morally grey and interesting because of that - the combination of good and bad makes them interesting. c!dream is a decent villain functionally, but his character is very off-putting and strange in what’s supposed to be a more complex narrative - not in a good way, in a jarring way. it’s at the point where he feels so cartoonish that it’s as if he’s been transported from another universe. he doesn’t feel grounded in the dream smp at all.

that all being said, however, the dream smp as of now is not a story made to be critically analyzed. it is not professional writing in any sense. it’s made to be entertaining and nothing else, so while everyone is well within their right to analyze it, a search for the quality you would find in a published novel in the realm of minecraft streaming is futile. put simply, it’s not as professional as nor is it the same as a book. sometimes the dream smp doesn’t even follow the typical mandatory narrative beats that every story usually needs. this doesn’t mean there’s no value in the work or that it’s bad—actually, it’s the opposite, with value coming from the fact that it’s interactive play. value comes from the enjoyment.

and like every other human being, my thoughts now are subject to change and are not infallible. in fact, i probably will change my opinion on this at some point. i could think this is entirely wrong in the morning or even a couple minutes from now.

but the point is, this story is very flawed, and while anyone is allowed to analyze public media, we also can’t expect it to be of the same quality as published authors who have been honing their craft for decades. this also doesn’t mean we can’t enjoy or love the dream smp, because it’s genuinely fun and worth enjoying, and there IS hard work put into it that should be acknowledged and celebrated. anyway sootpologist out these are my 1 am thoughts <3

[michibikionmain]

so earlier on Phil’s stream, Wilbur was talking about starting his own SMP again at some point down the line, and they were discussing plot stuff, and how they write scripts/what they like to see in scripts and he said something that really kinda stuck with me..

Will mentioned that his favorite types of plot lines are stories driven by nations and groups and that sort of thing, and so that’s what he wrote for while he worked on the script for the first “season” of the Dream SMP. From there, he mentioned that the current plot/script, though he hasn’t seen too much of it, is a lot more “character-driven and based”. (He also said he doesn’t like that as much, but that’s not what I wanna talk about)

And honestly? I can really, really see that. Every conflict in the current arcs is being driven by the characters themselves, rather than some overarching story. The exile was caused by Tommy making a poor decision and everyone having to deal with that, the Bloodvines started as an exterior conflict but has evolved into a mind control plot with the characters evaluating what’s important to them, and the creation of El Rapids was solely due to conflict between the Dream Team and their personal relationship struggles caused by their character flaws. I think that’s part of why I feel so much more invested and involved in the current plot pieces than I ever was for the L’manburg saga, because while the characters were all definitely fleshed out there, the story was what had a strong hold on what happened. But now? Now everything changes at the drop of a hat because it feels like each person on the server is doing their own unique thing, no member is easily replacable because they’re all telling their own unique story.

This happened to some extent in the L’manburg and Pogtopia conflicts, but there was always a driving force outside of the characters which kept things moving, and made characters with limited influence on these forces to be kinda pushed to the side and almost ignored. But now? Now each streamer is doing their own thing by developing their own characters and stories and collaborating with friends to build them together. As someone who actually has many years of roleplaying experience, those types of games are always more fun to participate in, and it looks like more of the streamers are enjoying the SMP and finding an actual place on it.

This is kinda all over the place, but I just thought this was interesting!

[razberry-jam]

Also!!! Idk if this would help people here??? But I’ve noticed a lot of people having discourse on whether Techno is meant to be interpreted, on a narrative level, if he is in the right or in the wrong! 

I just wanted to share, as someone with a big nerd feelings about storytelling, plot structure, etc- that not every narrative is about showing characters who are in the right, react appropriately, have correct beliefs etc. Most aren’t, actually! 

This is a strange trend I’ve noticed recently!!! I think it’s because a lot of us grew up idolizing fictional characters that we shouldn't have, and so who actually turned out to be assholes?? So I think people have somehow got it stuck in their heads that the main purpose of a character, or a story, is to be a role model, to be an example, send a message etc etc!

A side effect of storytelling is that we draw meaning- a “message” or a “theme” from it. Which is hella cool!! But it’s not what storytelling IS. Storytelling is the process by which you explain the change of state of one thing to another. Saying “The ballon was floating. Then I popped it.” Is a story! Saying “The ballon was a good person. Good things will happen to it.” Is not necessarily, because the ballon is not changing on any fundamental level. Even saying “bad things will happen to it” is not a story, because the ballon is still remaining exactly the same. (more underneath)

A story MIGHT say both. “A boy say a drowning cat. The boy saved the cat. The town threw him a party to thank him!” Is a story. It can be interpreted to send the message, “this boy is good, and because of that good things happen to him. Maybe we should be good too!” But even without the interpretation, the story still stands. 

Because the story does not require a message to be itself, storytelling doesn’t require messages. So the main point of stories can’t be sending messages if they don't require them. A story DOES require that a thing change from one state to another. So, if that’s true, describing change is the point of storytelling. 

It’s sort of like painting. A painting IS paint on canvas. Gogh’s Starry Night is paint on canvas, arranged to look like a night sky. People can pull different interpretations of it- but a good artist rarely goes in with their message fully formed in their mind. An artist represents something else, and by doing so, a message will often come out subconsciously through the artists’s subject combined with their own (often conflicting) beliefs, feelings, and desires.

How do most authors decide to induce change? They use conflict! Conflict: to be incompatible or at variance. Conflict, by its nature, creates change because incompatible things can’t share the same space. These two things will continue to push and fight against each other until they find a place where both of them can come to a rest. Think water and oil! Or a cat and a mouse. 

This is something that is fairly often brought up in English classes! If you’ve listen to some of Technoblade’s early streams, he even brings it up during his first two Pogtopia streams!! He mentions that he’s a little worried because everyone on the server is “too nice” so there's “not enough conflict.” He’s not saying that cause he doesn’t want people to be nice- he’s saying that because when someone is not pushing against you, its harder to know what to do. You ever done improv? It’s much easier to improv a funny argument than to improv two people who are completely on the same page in every way. 

So! Taking the dream smp for example cause thats where we’re at!

I saw some people were a bit upset that Techno said he was glad Tommy died. Yeah, not a nice thing to say about c!Tommy!! BUT cc!Techno choosing to say that is a wonderful thing to do for cc!Tommy!! Why? It creates conflict. 

If Technoblade had a “good” opinion on Tommy’s death, there would not be sufficient conflict between them, which essentially means there is no story left to tell there. That’s not good for cc!Techno or cc!Tommy. 

IF Technoblade had a “neutral” opinion on Tommy’s death (as he initially tried to have) there's still technically not a conflict there. A neutral opinion is still neutral- it does not force Techno to actually confront his mixed feelings about Tommy, or Tommy to come to a bigger awareness of those feelings, either on his or Techno’s side. 

A “bad” opinion on Tommy’s death IS the most conflict inducing choice we have here. Though small, in this moment it immediately brings him into conflict with both Ranboo and Phil (Phil!!! Which is hella interesting!!). 

A “bad” opinion also continues to heighten the conflict between Tommy and Techno, which again, is a good thing. If Techno had openly admitted he was sad that Tommy was dead, then there isn’t really anything new for us to learn about Techno or Tommy when Tommy comes back. It is redundant- which is something you wanna HELLA avoid in storytelling. 

As well as brings Techno into conflict with himself! I’m of the opinion that, while Techno believes what he said, it is not necessarily true. We can see both from Phil’s reaction “I swear he has a heart guys.” We can see this in how he talks about other people we know he cares deeply about ie my “acquaintance” Ranboo who he was willing to murder someone over. And we see this even in his brief interactions with Tommy- when Tommy came over before seeing Dream to steal out of Techno’s chests, Techno was upset, but also incredibly lenient. Which you know, is coming from a guy who hoards things religiously, towards someone whose guts he’s supposed to hate. Techno’s inability to properly regulate his attachments- keeping a cold facade while bouncing between incredibly polarizing apathy or absolute ride-and-die devotion, is literally one of Techno’s most reoccurring struggles and character flaws. A character flaw, which if Techno did not have, he would cease to be a character with any sort of dynamic struggle within him.

And finally it brings the audience into conflict with Techno, which is actually a good thing. We loose interest in characters we completely understand, and we loose interest in characters when we know exactly the direction they are going in. People who are saying “How could Techno say that when early he’d said he’d have given the world for Tommy??” Is EXACTLY the question the writers want you to be asking. 

Anyway !! To sum up!!! For technoblade, as a writer (not a character!! as a writer!!) his main concern is not portraying a character who is in the right, has the correct beliefs, or is justified in his actions. I’d argue its also NOT portraying a character who is in the wrong, has wrong beliefs, or is completely unjust.His main goal is portraying an interesting character. Through which cc!Techno’s main tool is almost always conflict! 

The narrative’s goal is usually not to portray good people, or to punish people for what they deserve. It’s main purpose is not to teach us what’s right and wrong (though that is an incredibly interesting side of effect of some stories!) The main goal of most stories is to be interesting, create conflict, and explore hypothetical scenarios.

(Which, if you notice- is true of a lot of the CCs who come from a storytelling background! IE Wilbur, Tommy, etc).

I mean, the dude’s into Greek mythology. Greek mythology is like the absolute king of “maybe heroic but mostly asshole” main characters lol. 

Anyway!! That got a bit long! But that’s the idea : ) of course, anyone’s welcome to interpret or enjoy the story in anyway they like! And feelings are feelings. But the fandom idea that a character’s purpose is to be a role model misses the point (and often, a lot of the enjoyment) of writing. 

[tinydemondragon]

thinking about dreamsmp instead of my homework and what annoys me about the fandom specifically and how it compares to what annoys me in book fandoms, particularly when it comes to character and character treatment.

so, bare with me here as this may not necessarily be coherent as I'm just mainly organizing my thoughts here. for comparison I'm going to be relating this to all for the game, henceforth aftg, as it's the book series I've been most obsessed with recently.

first, let's talk about story, particularly point of view and how it impacts a viewers thoughts/feelings on certain characters. for a book, you tend to only get one characters pov (in this case neil). you get to know this character and their thought processes really well, because that's all you know. but generally these characters aren't always right (if the story is good, anyway) and they often work with either a) not enough information or b) information that they believe to be true but isn't.

this means that these characters thoughts and feelings on a different character may not be fully fleshed out. more than that, as these characters don't know what they dont know, they often don't do care to dive into why someone is the way they is. and that's awesome! because it gives your mc nuance! it gives conflict! and sometimes they do actually learn more about that character and their view changes, which is a great way to show growth!

for example, Neil, at the beginning of the series, fucjing hates Andrew, and the audience totally gets why. I mean, their first interaction is neil being thwacked in the chest with a racket. not a great first interaction. not to mention, the violent rumors that are really only being reinforced by this interaction.

so neil, and by extension most of the audience, fucking hate Andrew. this is further reinforced by seemingly monstrous and over the top actions (drugging, breaking and entering, pulling a knife) that really don't put Andrew in a good light.

but over the course of the series, Neil sees the horrors Andrew had to face to be the way he is. Neil begins to understand Andrew, begins to like him (and love him, but thats a whoooole other convo within the fandom itself given the way love and healing from trauma is in the series it self). by the end of the series they're dating(? again, kind of hard to explain given the source material.)

point is, how the person you're reading the pov of impacts how you see the other characters. you start to develop ideas on these characters on the information presented to you in the emotional light given to you. I adore Andrew for example! but I also know if I had met him irl I'd probably hate him. because I wouldn't know him.

but the thing is, the opposite is true, too. you see this in Aaron, Andrew's twin, who neil really does not like. I wouldn't say he hates him but they get into more than one verbal fight, and they get into a physical at one point. and most of the fandom doesn't like him either! and this gets to the point I'm trying to make here.

the fandom doesn't like Aaron because neil doesn't. if you actually care enough to dive into his backstory, past the emotional veil that neil gives the reader, he's actually a sympathetic character who's just as deserving of redemption than Andrew if not more so imo

apply this to the dream smp.

for dsmp the best part about it is the wealth of character information you get due to the wealth of streams/content you get. for the most part people tend to pick one or two ccs/characters and stick to them for the sake of time and simplicity, but that doesn't mean that other information doesn't exist. unlike with book series, you can actually go and see their pov or read recaps or watch clips and get an actual sense for their motivations, without the cloudiness of you preferred characters emotions and the false or missing information they're working on.

this is where my grievance comes in. because I hate the fact that people can absolve Andrew of his actions but refuse to understand that you can do the same for Aaron. but at least I can understand that. most people don't want to analyze a story and analyze why they feel the way they do about a book character and you know what? more power to them! you're not required to do that to enjoy a book and you're allowed to find joy however you please.

and sometimes that means people do analysis of these characters and they don't separate the truth from what neil percieves to be true and its frustrating but damn if it isn't understandable. they're only working with one pov after all.

but dsmp? where (most) of the other povs are right there? where recaps and clips are right there? and you're still not bothering to see past what your preferred characters pov is? when even the ccs themselves admit they've got flawed views on what's happening and that their characters aren't always right (again, as it should be in any good story). no. im sorry but no.

again, I want to reiterate that you do NOT have to like these characters. I'm not a huge fan of Tommy's character tbh, but you know what? you also won't see me doing in depth character analysis of his whole character arc. maybe an interaction (see my post on trauma and his reaction to dream being in the house at technos) but I won't go in depth on his character motivations because I don't watch his pov! i don't watch clips or read recaps or any of that! so I know that my information is flawed and often incorrect!

you can still do these character analysis I suppose, but at least say from x characters pov this is how this character seems. because to not at least mention that is to do that character and that story a disservice and frankly I don't want to see it.

[cryptvokeeper]

Oh hey been a hot minute since I had dsmp-adjacent thoughts but let’s talk abt that

These aren’t gonna be positive btw (I wouldn’t call them negative either, but they’re pretty up front about creators’ shortcomings so if that ain’t your deal ignore this)

but like, my dearly beloved was telling me abt the most recent shit show over on Twitter and I ended up with thoughts abt enjoying content separate from the creator, art separate from the artist and all that, and how that really works in this case. Because like ive expressed this idea before, that streamers and youtubers and whatever are primarily selling you their personalities, or at the very least the personality theyre putting on camera. Their ‘affect’, their ‘persona’, whatever you wanna call it, that’s the product, that’s what the audience comes to see.

And so like, how does that interact with the narrative? Like for me, in order to not get too deeply invested, i always reminded myself that I was only here for the story not the people making it. But also the people making it are the story. Like obviously they’re all playing characters, but those characters are dramatized versions of themselves. At the very least they all started out as the creator’s persona. And it made me think about how a lot of the traits that the creators were criticized for are things that made the characters so enjoyable. Like, good characters have flaws that the audience find appealing in some way, so when the fictionalized characters show the same or exaggerated behaviors of the creators, it becomes more palatable.

Like, some of the things people criticize Tommy for are the fact that’s he’s loud or annoying, that he’s irresponsible or impulsive, that he’s ignorant or stubborn. As a creator this lands him in situations where his mouth moves faster than his brain and he says things that may be insensitive or worse than he meant it. But as a character, these are things that make him endearing. like, loud obnoxious immature boy who refuses to change the way he thinks and believes in the power of friendship describes most shonen protagonists. it’s a fairly common and well liked character type.

or for another example, Dream is often criticized for being really irresponsible with the amount of influence he has and a tendency to lash out. This manifests irl with shit like him taking criticism poorly and doubling down, or getting into arguments with much less Influential people and his fans dogpiling them. as a creator that’s not a great look, but in fiction the concept of someone with an incredible amount of power who can’t handle being questioned, comes off as manipulative or disingenuous, and tends to react to opposition in ways that just make things worse is the basis for a great villain.

and I dunno, I just think it’s really interesting to think about. The way you can never fully seperate art from the artist, but that doesn’t always manifest in the ways we think. The way we interpret behaviors in characters versus the way they’re interpreted in people. The idealization of both creators and characters, and how the enjoyment/defense of a character may flow back into defense of the creator, or Vice versa of enjoying a creator influencing the reading of the character. and just how much is character and how much is creator.

And it comes back to the question I always have about dream smp stuff which is, how much of it is intentional? How self aware are these creators Of their flaws and how much of that goes into their storytelling/characterization? If it is intentional, is that better of worse? That they seem to be aware of their flaws as people yet continue to end up in situations that demonstrate those exact flaws? Then again, nobody’s perfect and considering the volume of content they create, the proportion of really and fuck ups isnt huge, just exacerbated by social media’s tendency towards outrage. but on the other hand, is that a fair excuse when their audiences are as big as they are and as young as they tend to be?

I don’t fuckin know, I just think it’s fun to think about.

[fl0ating-tree]

this is gonna be a little ranty and feel free to talk with me in asks or replies about it, but ultimately this is just my opinion and youre free to disagree!

lately ive just found myself unable to be interested in the lore. 

one of my favorite memories from this fandom was watching the l’manberg elections live. watching chat fly by and how the beginning of the stream was pretty chill but then it got more serious and then schlatt was screaming at wilbur and tommy and texting my friends like ‘OH MY GOD DID YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENED?”. the last stream that i really felt like that was the jan 20th stream, the disc finale. and before that was nov 16th. and i miss feeling that when watching these streams. 

the original dream smp story, what wilbur wrote and lead, was an amazing storyline that had a lot of flaws in both the writing and execution that was made by people who were incredibly passionate about it. thats what made it so good. they over acted at some points and you had 1 1/2 hours of stream before you had a chance of lore even happening and it felt like you were watching the first rendition of someones dream project and it felt like i was watching something very special happen, that i was part of something special. i voted in the elections and i posted my theories and i talked in the chat about what was happening. 

i just really miss how it was people who loved what they were doing playing minecraft and making a really cool story out of it. you had your diverging stories, like the pet wars and disc wars, but even those ultimately felt connected to the main story of 5 people trying to make a nation against tyranny and watching the devolution of that revolution. 

now its just...so much happens. ranboo and his enderwalk and fundy and his dreams and erets imposing taxes? and george is in love with god and karls a time traveler and quackity is torturing dream and tubbo has nukes and tommy has a hotel and sam cut off ponks arm and techno has a syndicate and puffy also has amnesia? and jack went to hell and back and bad is possesed. theres probably more that i dont know about because i just...cant find it in me to keep track of that much. 

and good on you if you do care. dont let this post drive you away from enjoying the current content. thats not the point of this post. this is more just me mourning the OG eras, i guess. im not trying to say people who werent there for the OG lmanberg days arent “true fans” or any bullshit like that, or that its “stupid” to still like the dsmp. 

its just...it feels really overproduced and overcomplicated to me now, and it feels a bit like watching something that had so much potential crumble under its own success. 

[lazyliars]

If you're still doing character breakdowns- Wilbur and/or Ghostbur? :)

How I feel about this character

c!Wilbur is my og favorite. The drug van stream was the first one I watched on the SMP, from Sapnap’s perspective, and was also my first introduction to Wilbur as a cc - needless to say, he won my heart IMMEDIATELY.

So. Wilbur is one of the most tragically misremembered characters in the entire cast. It’s honestly kind of a beautiful genius how skewed the narrative about him has become, considering how his story was entwined with a certain musical; he is literally now the “villain in their history.”

But early Wilbur wasn’t Burr - he was the Washington to Tommy’s Hamilton, the calming presence in a sea of uncertainty, and the voice of change in a status quo that didn’t favor him and his people.

Wilbur’s early values centered around Peace. While his first endeavors were an attempt at creating a drug empire, the speed at which things changed when Sapnap and Tubbo played cops and threatened him and Tommy was blinding - the character he played switched from a semi-corrupt drug dealer to a noble-minded leader in barely an hour, but progression was clear - the catalyst for change, for L’manberg, was a desire to make things fair for himself, and for Tommy.

He wasn’t a flawless leader even back then, not by any standards, but his men followed him because they believed in him, and they believed in what they were all creating together.

And the idea that they, a group of underdogs, could possibly challenge the ruling powers of the time? That they could challenge tyrants?

That was what Wilbur fostered. That was one of the founding principles of L’manberg.

All the people I ship romantically with this character

Sally the Salmon. Next question.

My non-romantic OTP for this character

I think that Wilbur and Eret’s relationship is criminally underrated. It’s hard to remember now, but pre-betrayal? Eret and Wilbur were friends. Eret was someone who Wilbur trusted to be responsible when he couldn’t trust the same the other, more immature members of L’manberg.

And listen, for the people who started watching later down the line, I’m sure that Eret is someone you probably know as being defined by his title as ‘traitor,’ but I cannot convey just how unbelievable it was at the time. Literally no one, NO ONE suspected Eret, it took everyone by surprise, cc and audience alike. Eret was L’manberg’s rock, one of it’s workhorses along with Tubbo, it’s cool, chilled out emotional support, one of it’s founders!

And Eret’s betrayal hit no one harder than it did Wilbur. The blame for allowing it to happen, the inability to fully trust another person with his burdens?

I truly believe that the betrayal dealt an early blow to the foundations of Wilbur’s mental health that he never truly recovered from, and which would ultimately be the flaw in the structure that caused everything to come falling down around him when the weight of the elections and exile was placed on him.

If Wilbur’s ability to trust had remained intact, I don’t think the Pogtopia arc would have played out in the dark way that it did. The clearest example of this is the button room, and Wilbur’s last(ish) words, echoing Eret’s: “It was never meant to be.”

(and none of this is fully on Eret’s shoulders, either. cc!Eret described their character as “one of the earliest victims of Dream’s manipulations” and beyond that, c!Wilbur is still ultimately the one responsible for his own actions, regardless of how he was hurt. But I do think that the way that Eret’s betrayal fractured Wilbur is an under appreciated moment for the both of them, as it is the core of Wilbur’s final arc and it fuels Eret’s desire for redemption, as they want to make up for the way that they damaged things.)

My unpopular opinion about this character

Ghostbur was a weak character up until his involvement in Doomsday.

There, I said it! I’m sorry!!!!

...This opinion comes mostly from my own wish at the time for Alivebur/Deadbur/whatever to, like, face up to his mistakes and failings, and how Ghostbur just was not there to do that. He was fundamentally not a continuation of the character I was invested in, and even as an individual character on his own I think that a lot of his additions to the story weren’t played out as strongly as they could’ve been.

I think a good portion of this is for meta reasons, as cc!Wilbur just wasn’t active on the SMP as much at that point, and had said as much was going to happen, I just personally wish he had done things differently/only gotten on the server to chill with people non-canonically.

And then that aaaaaaaall changed in the aftermath of Doomsday, my abhorred. Ghostbur is one of the highlights of that event, he pulls some of the most disparate narrative conflicts back together to create something coherent and utilizes his role as a very minor character to drastic advantage by displaying the cost of the “ends justify the means” mentality that was a “focal point” of the conflict, focal being used loosely here because the narrative was so all over the place that it’s difficult to pick out singular parts to focus on.

Since then Ghostbur has been a more platable character for me, as it gave him what I as a viewer personally consider necessary to fully enjoy and be drawn in by a character: a character motivation. Ghostbur wanted to be resurrected.

He’s fallen off again in terms of activety, and that goal has changed a little, but ultimately the character revelations that Doomsday gave us still make him a “good character” to me.

^^^The criticism here is all on a very subjective level, and I hope it goes without saying that it is truly just my opinion... my, unpopular opinion.

One thing I wish would happen / had happened with this character in canon.

I will be real, I am such a fan of the Eldritch Wilbur theory/interpretation/whatever. Essentially, the idea that Wilbur will be revived and become a worldwide, existential threat due to having stewed in the vast emptiness of the afterlife.

Now, my initial reaction was very skeptical, as I am very interested in a Wilbur who comes back and regrets what he’s done, rebukes his own “villain arc” so to speak.

However, I am also enamored with the idea that the Afterlife changes you. That the time you spend there can warp you into a facsimile of yourself - if you stare into the void long enough, it will stare back.

I also think that there is a thematic draw to the idea of facing Wilbur as an antagonist again, especially for the OG L’manbergians. He is, in a lot of ways, their greatest failure.

I think what that means is different to each of them; To Tommy, he failed to save Wilbur from himself, to prove to him that it really wasn’t too late to take it back; To Tubbo, he failed to be Wilbur, to be president, to fit those shoes and make him proud. To Fundy, he failed to get what he wanted from his relationship with Wilbur, to find a time where the affection and love was going both ways; To Eret, well, It’s obvious.

So if Wilbur is coming back as an antagonist, I want those four to be the ones to fight him. I want them to prove him wrong. I want them to be better than him. I want them to reach out. I want them to tell him what he always needed to hear, and I need it to be true: “It was always meant to be.”

I want them to prove to Wilbur wrong, that he is right for this server; I need them to succeed this time, and save him.