#i just find it insulting to gay ppl or lgbt ppl in general

[e-the-village-cryptid]

Hey I’m also queer and I use it as an identity label. I don’t agree with people excessively trigger tagging it when it’s not necessary, but I’d really suggest you educate yourself on its history as a slur. I am a gay trans man, so this is absolutely not terf rhetoric from me. But I was called queer in a derogatory way my entire life because I lived in a rural area where it was absolutely used as a slur. Maybe consider that ppl asking for trigger tags are also LGBT and not your enemy lol

Like go ahead and isolate yourself from other queer ppl all you want but just bc some ppl are genuinely triggered by the term doesn’t mean they’re attacking you for using it, lmfao

I know you probably mean well by this ask, and I see where you're coming from. I disagree, but I will give a good faith answer in return.

To understand where I'm coming from, let's compare the words queer and gay. Both words originally referred to general sexual deviancy in a pejorative sense, only later being reclaimed as proudly worn identities. Both words have been used as slurs for a long time afterwards, queer being more popular in the mid 20th century and gay gaining popularity as a slur in the later 20th into the 21st century.

I know way more queer people in real life who have a complicated relationship with the word gay than the word queer because gay was the word that was slung at them as an insult and a weapon their entire childhood. Gay was The insult of the 80s, 90s, and 00s. Anything bad, or weak, or stupid was "gay". There were whole campaigns to try to stop the use of gay as an insult, that's how bad it got. It's given a lot of people a lot of pain connected with the word.

But I have never, ever, seen someone tag a post "g slur". Why? Two words, both initially pejorative, both reclaimed, both continuously used liberally by those who hate us as a slur and an insult. Isn't it interesting how the more inclusive of those two words was targeted in a concentrated effort that started just a few years ago in terf communities? Isn't it interesting how the more narrow, less inclusive word, despite being the one more recently used as a slur and insult, despite the people in the community who still flinch when they hear it, was simply left alone?

To be clear, I don't think that we should be trigger tagging gay, or starting some "gay is a slur!" movement. I'm just pointing out parallels and questioning why the attitude towards two words with similar histories are so vastly different.

Educate myself on its history? I know it was used as a slur. So was gay, so was lesbian, so was every goddam word we have ever used to describe ourselves because it is not the words they find disgusting, it is us. Queer has been reclaimed and used in a neutral or positive way for decades and decades.

Context matters. "you dirty queer" = slur "I went to the queer student group meeting last week" = not a slur "ew that's so gay" = slur "I came out as gay when I was 16" = not a slur

No one is denying that queer has been and can still be used as a slur. But this specific "queer is a slur in any context!" movement legitimately did come out of terf communities in the last few years. I'm not accusing you of being associated with terfs. But "queer is a slur and triggering no matter how it's used" is terf rhetoric, and they've managed to spread it beyond their community. To claim that a word that has been reclaimed for decades and used in a neutral-to-positive context is a slur is disingenuous, and they know it, but they've successfully gotten other people to parrot it by hiding it under a layer of false concern.

One final thought: I have literally never seen anyone ask for queer to be tagged because they personally are triggered by the word. It's always people speaking on behalf of some hypothetical person who can't stand to even see my identity written out in a neutral-to-positive context. And if anyone really is so genuinely triggered by the term that they can't even stand to read it, they can just filter the post content, tumblr lets you do that.

[eddiethehunted]

hmm

[theunconcernedembalmer]

what’s the issue with elisop? is it just bc you hc aesop as ace? im so concerned by seeing ppl adamantly opposed to mlm/wlw ships but im also genuinely curious about why you dislike it and other lgbt ships so much lol

hmm. that is a strong accusation, n i find it just a bit odd. are you new here? or perhaps you are taking personal offense at my dislike towards a favourite ship of yours and using the lgbt argument as moral high ground?

whatever the case may be, i thank you for asking. if u r truly looking for an answer, its below the cut n it is very very long. mind u these are all my personal opinions n i am in no way policing how others enjoy ships. just in case this wasnt clear; i dont wish to start discourse on this blog, especially since my takes are probably... unpopular.

firstly i would like to address the “disliking lgbt ships” bit, because this has very strong implications in itself. i have nothing against lgbt ships. i enjoy them, even. if the two characters have chemistry between each other, i ship it. however, the moment characterization is broken for the sake of romance, i lose interest. this is generally my stance on ships in general, n this applies for both straight n lgbt ships. 

the ships themselves are fine. however, i do have issues with the ship dynamics, so ill let u in on that.

i want to touch on mlm ships in particular; i believe u are familiar with the top/bottom dynamic that is rampant in these kinds of ships? (i wont deny that this dynamic can be found in other types of ships, but for arguments sake i will be focusing on gay ships because i feel that this occurs more commonly here) its such a popular dynamic that is prone to stripping the personality from one if not both characters, only for them to be reduced to being dominant/submissive. for a character to be pigeonholed into a stereotypical category based on... preferred sexual positions? its just downright insulting, never mind the larger more problematic implications of it. top/bottom is not indicative of someones personality, by the way. flattening multi dimensional characters into these stereotypes is so so so insulting.

unfortunately this is The Most Popular portrayal of just about any gay ship around. ive seen it being used everywhere in so many fandoms n it just about becomes apparent to me that ppl come to stories looking for a Ship. not the stories, nor the characters, just a ship. while id like to say theres nothing wrong with that, keep in mind not everyone is just looking for 2 characters that look pretty next to each other. if i ship something, i see interesting n meaningful interactions between 2 characters, which is so often not the case once u bring in the top/bottom dynamic. why is it so popular? because somehow this is what ppl like from a gay ship n hence it sells. ppl want the drama, characterizations be damned. ppl want to see the big kiss that happens in the end, n maybe the sexy parts that come after. characterizations be damned.

so u can say im a little wary of gay ships when they cross my feed. hell, as a joseph aesop shipper i see this trope everywhere n im pretty disappointed as well. small tangent but i feel like this is the reason why zh0ngli n ch1lde is so popular in g3nshin. i try to see the appeal, i really do, but after a long while of analyzing their respective characters i dont think they have as much chemistry as ppl think they do. dont even get me started on how incredibly ooc they make either of these very interesting n unique characters in ship portrayals. all because of the top/bottom dynamic that ppl want to see. i say this for that particular ship, but this is pretty much the case for a lot of ships out there, n the latter part is painfully true even when the 2 characters do have potential between each other. ill say it again im disgusted by the blatant disrespect to the characterizations if all ppl ever want is 2 pretty puppets to mush lips together. cos thats what theyre essentially reduced to this way.

n its so obvious to see when an artist subscribes to this rhetoric, because u can so clearly see it in the way they draw their characters. the “top” generally has sharper features to go with their “dominating personality”, while the “bottom” has disturbingly softer, feminine, dare i say sometimes child like features “to submit”. n thats where the uwu soft gay trope comes from, i believe. which, in case u still dont know, i hate with a burning passion.

so again for ppl with impaired reading comprehension, im fine with ships, including lgbt ones, but the moment u break characterization for the sake of the ship, im not that okay with it. u want to do it for a short crack comic? fine. but if thats the only way ur portraying the 2 characters then im immediately wary of ur content. ill still look at it cos usually the art is really good, but im very very wary. so im not “adamantly opposed”, just very critical of how the ships are being portrayed. if other ppl want to enjoy their ships like that, sure. just dont expect me to join in on something i dont agree on.

.

now id like to address not shipping “because i hc aesop as ace”. for ppl who are new to the blog (hello there), im an ace in a romantic relationship, so thats definitely not the reason i dont ship elisop. its more of being in a relationship has largely shaped my views towards romance as a whole. even before i met my boyfriend, i hated the romance genre in stories n media. most of it comes off as incredibly forced, especially those love triangles they seem to love putting into teen novels. thats one reason why i stopped reading when i was younger, but i digress.

did i partake in shipping when i was younger? i did. for a gay ship too (if anyone really wants to know, its kurotsukki from haikyuu. at least this was one that i can remember, i was mostly working on my 20 odd ocs for the longest time). i also used to write little short romance ficlets that i never posted anywhere cos i hated (n still do hate) my writing. but writing romance when u dont have experience was really just a way of projecting n probably a way of coping for myself, not that i knew at that time. but after i actually started a relationship with my boyfriend (whom i love n cherish a lot thank u very much), i began to see how much all these have skewed my views towards romance n have actually done some harm to our relationship. the bullshit that the general media feeds u constantly doesnt help in the slightest either.

quick topic shift to elisop in particular (about time, right?). i already stated that i only ship characters if i sense chemistry between the two personalities, n if u have seen the part where i dont ship elisop then u must have seen how agonized i am over not being able to have a concrete personality for eli. that is the main problem i have with elisop: eli does not feel like a solid character to me. n that is a huge problem, because if he doesnt have any defining characteristics besides being mild n nice, then he can be whoever i want him to be. (i have done this in my exorcist comics, i will admit this. n the fact that i can just do that... it really does not sit well with me personally.)

n that is dangerous.

back to young me doing lil ship things. i think its also pretty safe to say when u really do ship 2 characters, chances are u kinda really relate very very hard to at least one of them. that very quickly can turn into projecting, n shipping therefore is not “exploring the relationship between 2 characters” n it becomes “my preferred dating simulator 101″. of course this isnt always the case, but at least it was for me, n subconsciously it might be for lots of ppl too. n since this is ur mental playground, u call the shots, n there is no consequences if u slightly (or even entirely) alter one or both personalities to fit ur desired narrative. n u wouldnt even notice or know, cos ur blind to ur own biasness.

we bring our perceived notions into real life, im sure u know that. so when ur partner does not become that perfect knight in shining armour, or when they get upset at things that u do (which is a very normal thing by the way), n u think (very subconsciously), That isnt what my otp would do, something is wrong here (nothing is wrong, actually its just ur skewed perception of a stable romantic relationship). why wouldnt ur otp do this? because u are both halves of ur otps, there is no hidden secrets between them (apart from the pining part but thats irrelevant), n again they have been altered to fit ur preferred narrative. 

a real relationship requires a lot of communication between parties, because newsflash, liking someone doesnt mean that u have to like every single thing they do, they will make mistakes n it will hurt u, n guess what, the reverse is also true. if u do go with absoutely anything that they would do with 0 objections whatsoever, ur not crushing on someone, ur idolizing them, n that power imbalance is detrimental to a relationship. these things are not obvious to ppl, especially when the whole climate is hell bent on getting into romantic relationships by a certain age or some bullshit. communication is key n is pretty much the only way to solve relationship issues, because the other person has a lot that u r not seeing n vice versa. as similar as 2 ppl can be, i doubt u can have 100% the same thoughts on all things. i dont make the rules.

so in ur mental playground u focus on the fluffy parts, maybe there is communication, but rarely is there any meaningful conflict. thats unrealistic, n if u bring that mindset to an actual relationship, thats not going to end well. i say meaningful conflict, because yes, generally u shouldnt have conflicts with ur significant other. but inevitably when ur with each other for long enough, u will realize that there are habits that u must change in order to be with the other person. habits that are harmful to the other person directly, or harmful habits towards yourself that indirectly harm the other person. these are meaningful in a sense that if left alone, it will manifest into larger problems that will harm u, the other person n the relationship as a whole. its meaningful to the relationship.

all these is made even worse if ur neurodivergent. maladaptive coping practices, self sabotaging behaviours, inherent disabilities. all these must be adjusted n addressed. im so incredibly thankful for my boyfriend for being incredibly patient with me when working all these out, n it has not been easy for me to work on myself n all my problems, n im still not done working on them. this aspect is often not explored in romance in general (or properly), n there is a very good chance i would have still been stuck in the unhealthy mindset of “this isnt like my otp, maybe we’re not meant to be”. because loving someone is a choice. no one is made for each other, it is a conscious choice made between 2 ppl to make things work. this is how arranged marriages work, i am told, n i do see the appeal, not that it actually does appeal to me culturally.

special mention to the kurotsukki ship, cos from there i found a very, very good fic that explored their relationship before n after getting together, n it actually showed aspects of this problem in the incredibly slow burn of (at that time) 20+ chapters. it was just one fic (n a very good one at that, i believe it was called Leviticus), but it had a lesson i never thought i needed to learn, n learn it i did, with a lot of help from my dear. 

this is also probably the reason why i dont really want to delve too much into romance now. i know its a lot of work, n everything (mostly) that the media feeds u is really false advertising, but ppl eat that shit up n so it remains one of the most popular genres to date. im just very wary that if i do start on a romantic story, i want to be able to show it in a way like that fic did, the truths of relationships, because i dont want to make something that sells, i want to make something that meaningful to me, if a little indulgent. n that also includes being very careful in how the respective characterizations will change in a relationship. almost too careful now that i think about it, but its not something that i mind. i was never one for romance from the start, n now im very careful about shipping because of what happened to me persoanlly.

okay enough about me, lets talk about aesop. in any au u put the character in, the essence of the character must remain despite the change in environment. so lets say we have ur typical modern au. dead mom, check. shitty mentor doing illegal stuff? also check. autistic boy with social anxiety? we’re good to go. all these have implications on aesop as a character, n while ppl are aware of this, again the way they go about portraying it can go, in my personal opinion, very wrong. ppl who immediately woobify aesop completely because he has autism annoy me. ppl who reduce him to uwu soft boi cos he has social anxiety do not know how the disorder really works n as someone who has that i hate it to the core. ppl who do all these for the sake of ship have lost my respect. its insulting.

remember the top/bottom dynamic? not that elisop is completely free from that (even if i dont know much about eli, to put him in either one of those stereotypes feels very insulting to his character. i wont even say anything about doing it to aesop its so upsetting), but its not entirely made up of either. but now i want to introduce another trope i am very wary of, which is “i can fix him”. im sure u guys have seen the meme going around poking fun at this trope (for those who havent, its along the lines of “u can fix him? well i can be his worst nightmare”) n no doubt yall would have seen it n gotten sick of it in some forced hetero romantic bullshit. we have one damsel in distress with a saviour that solves all their problems just by existing n being romo with each other.

remember “my preferred dating simulator 101″? this is not mutually exclusive n from my point of view this is dangerously close to this trope. lets be real, if it was actually a thing that all ur deep rooted trauma magically disappears if someone were to waltz into ur life, we would want it. definitely. no painfully dissecting ur own problems n constantly facing them head on. real life states that this is not the case, but it will not stop us from dreaming. n so this trope is born n lives n will go on.

(finally) pulling aesop n eli into this, at least in my mind, u have one severely traumatized boy with lots of issues n u have this. nice mild guy who can be anything u want him to be. i hope u can see where im going with this, n thats the direction i see some elisop heading towards (i dont read a lot of elisop to be fair). if u came from my eli character talk, i mentioned that it is incredibly one sided. this is exactly what im talking about.

putting it all together in case u havent already, aesop is the damsel in distress, whose problems magically disappear because of elis godly kindness n little to no work on improving himself, n they lived happily n gayly ever after.

can u tell how much that does not appeal to me. 

never mind the butchering of character that inevitably happens somewhere somehow, the unrealistically perfect themes n implications of this trope makes me so viscerally uncomfortable. this is, of course, due to personal reasons, n i definitely see the appeal of this dynamic because i would probably have been interested in this once upon a time as well. but as i am now, with everything i have explained up there n everything i have been through, i would politely rather not.

n its difficult to think of another dynamic, because of how little i know about eli apart from him being this saint, which easily makes him a candidate for being aesops trauma panacea. never mind aesop rarely, if ever, does anything for eli as a character in return, n its so damaging to buy into this rhetoric, where a person like this who would solve all ur issues no strings attached exists somewhere in the world. they really dont. a relationship has to be mutually benefitting, or it will be draining n disastrous. maybe u say, Oh its nice to imagine it once in a while. n yeah, i agree, except once in a while is a little difficult to keep track of n that is sort of what happened to me. id rather stay as far away as possible from this kind of unrealistic fantasy, i just got this shit sorted out with myself n my boyfriend.

i have some other reasons, but theyre more personally problematic, so i wont go into them here. but this is mostly n generally why i do not ship elisop romantically. if u do, u do u, and have fun, but again dont expect me to join u. thank u for coming to my ted talk, this took a lot longer than expected.

[incarnateirony]

You call ppl who don't think DeanCas is canon stupid, mocking them on your timeline. You insulted the ppl who said that Berens liked in*est tweets, how we could ever claim a gay man would like such a horrible thing. Yet you don't say sth about your friends like Casgirlsam who called ppl who aren't ok with c*ld in*est p*rn homophobic, purity police. Cause SPN is just fiction, and all ships are valid. If you don't think in*est is so bad, why do you have an issue with Berens shipping it?

Literally every fucking thing you put into this troll ask is incorrect, which is fucking impressive. Like this is qanon or trump level drivel. 100%

So anyway will be checking my tracker in the morning because someone clearly didn't get the memo on how i handle this middleschool drama tweenage crap being dumped in my inbox.

And before you play victim on your made up trashheap being called out like. Seriously. Spew made up bullshit for attention, get attention as a bullshit spreader.

Edit: wait wait. You had two vaguely accurate points. Berens being an lgbt man (everything else libelous of said lgbt man is horse shit), and... actually no. I only drag idiots who can't keep their shit off my blog so no.

It seems to really. REALLY. Piss yall off that i wont give this highschool ship war attention begging nonsense what yall are after though. Go find another inbox to bully with completely fabricated horse shit, you may do better there.

If it makes you feel better you can pretend I'm not slaughtering your attention mongering because i can't, rather than having done so on those points dozens of times before and this chomping for attention trying to rehash fossilized horse shit being beneath me.

I'm going to bed. Stay mad. Seems about all you have. That and an apparent loathing enough for a gay man you make up vile bullshit for attention. Oh and queer history. You talk a good game about barring incest, but make shit up about a gay man's association, generally to enable your queer cinema deletion in other areas and otherwise to self gratify. Because it's not about rep to you, not about author diversity to you, not about lgbt history to you, it's about how long you can gain attention in irrelevant fandom wars in an ending show to you.

Gross.

[planetbass]

I FORGOT WHAT EMOJIS I WAS GONNA SEND BC OF WHAT U NAMED UR ASKBOX SO I HAD TO LOOK AT EM AGAIN DHJSSHDJ BUT HQ 🎥 💕 🏳️‍🌈

i accidentally xed out of this tab im going to commit kermit falling off roof vine. anyways im going to recreate the fuckign 500 words id already written best i can i guess. on the bright side, this draft will probably be much better than whatever nonsensical stuff i’d written before i accidentally thanosed it.

i Just changed my inbox name the other day but i dont remember what it is...... im sure it was something i thought was funny at like 3 am......

🎥 do you have any favorite scenes from your [special interest]?

SO fucking many. umm here r a few ig off the top of my head

the first thing that comes to mind is. the fucking scene where. theyre at training camp and hinata thinks there’s a . lost child among them or something and it’s fucking dark and scary and dramatic but it turns out it was just noya with his hair down (which added like 2 inches to his height)

any and all of the scenes in s2 with the 3rd gym squad (bokuto, kuroo, akaashi, hinata, tsukishima). 

in the manga, kuroo’s backstory abt how his shyness was “worse than [kenma’s]”

literally ANY and ALL times kuroo and daishou interact because theyre so fucking funny

kuroo: h

daishou: i hope youf ucking die i hate you i h

💕 tell us about one of your favorite characters and why you like them!

tit i cant believe you DO this to me when you KNOW how much i already talk about him and love him....

i think it really comes down to the fact that i see a lot of myself in him. it seems weird at first maybe, but when it comes down to his core character... similar. i identify with him a lot. he’s also a huge comfort character. poor kuroo suffers under all of my vent writing. it’s surprising i dont kin him but you never know i guess. 

idk if it still happens (it probably does tbh :unamused:) but he used to be characterized as like. extroverted sexy mccool guy by the fanbase and it was weird cuz kuroo is . A HUGE NERD. WHAT SORT OF KID, WHEN FIFTEEN YEARS OLD, DROPS THE TERM DOCOSAHEXAEONIC ACID INTO AN INSULT. his hair has no product in it to look Hot or anything it is not on purpose it is his natural, shitty bedhead from sleeping weird. he acts like a dumbass sometimes bc he’s a goofy guy, but he’s also SUPER smart. n people brush him off/think he’s joking when he says “i’m always this nice” but he IS he’s one of the most selfless characters. he’s really considerate and he helps people no matter what, even when he doesn’t have to - like when he helped tsukki during the training camp (not just on his technique, but he also helped him find his passion for volleyball) despite wanting to go up AGAINST tsukki’s team in nationals. not to mention that he wants karasuno to get better because he wants his team and karasuno to have an official match together to please his coach. AND despite winning against nohebi in the semifinals, when a group of strangers bash nobehi for their slimy tactics to scrape up points and gain the favor of the refs, kuroo DEFENDS nohebi even though he didn’t have to and when he has personal rivalry against their team’s captain. i will also stand by the fact that he’s anxiety disordered™. he just feels like a very real character to me n . i just love him a lot.

🏳‍🌈 do you have any headcanons (lgbt, race, neuro, etc) that are important to you?

yeah! a lot!

my biggest is that kuroo had/has selective mutism (n ppl can also interpret it as autism ! i just prefer sm bc thats what i got). that’s like. the One i will live and die by and it’s another reason why i really love him so much and that i see myself in him more than anyone else. as a teen and almost-adult i see him as still having some residual social anxiety due to the childhood disorder, and he’s hella depressed as well cuz it be like that. also for self-projection reasons i like arokuroo (i have that url stolen lol). ive never had a distinct sexuality headcanon for him, either pan or gay in my thoughts, but also since i see myself in him its hard for me to. do that ig?? idk lol

bokuto has adhd. i really support that one as well. he’s also ace!! he’s the ace ace!! i also like to see him as somewhat arospec, but in the sense that he’s just not really interested in that sort of thing? but he is still just... head over heels for akaashi.

akaashi has general anxiety n some social anxiety and also the pression. he’s GAY babey . ALSO he’s a he/him non-binary

kenma social anxiety babie. i mean, that’s literally canon. he has social anxiety. he’s also demi n trans. 

daishou is bi. i also write him as having paranoia. 

ask me abt any character n i can probably spit something out for u regarding lgbt headcanons. there’s too many to cover. 

[arnold-layne]

Whats it like in Russia? Are alot of things censored?

Well...

I know no other life so it’s fine for me. I think it’s not as unbearable as it probably seems from the perspective of a foreigner. Comparing to soviet times which were not so long ago there’s much more freedom actually, and some people still haven’t got used to it. 

I think you mean that infamous law about prohibition of propaganda of homosexuality. It exists, but as long as it’s not public media you can talk about it as much as you want to. In public media it will probably be banned, yeah. However, the recent Beauty and the Beast movie with an openly gay servant was, as far as i remember, allowed to cinemas. Incredible backlash followed, of course, but still - it was shown! Same with Bohemian Rhapsody, although it was labeled 18+. Cashiers in cinemas don’t care, I’m not 18 and I got a ticket just fine. Borhap is actually very popular here, so much more fans joined the queen fandom :D a lot of progress on this matter was made in the past few years, and i’m really looking forward to the continuaton of this trend.

We also have our own fanfiction website, ficbook, and it’s just as full of slash and femslash as any other fanfiction website is. And nobody blocks it because nobody knows or cares. There were some prohibitions that touched ficbook, for example, smut including minors, or suicide propaganda, and some works got deleted, but it’s easily avoided if you don’t specify the age. I have a fic with 14 yo Vince and adult content and it’s still there. slash\femslash fiction, esp. fanfiction, is flourishing here.

However, if you wanted to write a book with an lgbt protagonist, you most likely wouldn’t get published. Same with movies, you wouldn’t find any gay main or positive characters in russian movies. porn sites also get blocked, or you have to specify your age. a lot of people got arrested and sued for posts in social networks commenting on current political situation. it’s called “jailed for a reblog”. you can’t hold hands with your same-sex partner on street because it’s highly likely you’ll be beaten up by homophobs. not even talking about trans ppl, they’re so stigmatized it hurts. recently a trans woman was put in mens’ prison because her passport said she is male. the general attitude to lgbt people is “they can do whatever they want as long as they do it in private”. the word “feminist” is almost a slur. i’m afraid to admit i’m one because i would certainly be mocked and laughed at at best. gay prides are prohibited, we’ve never had one here. although theoretically we’re a seculiar state, a lot of people got sued for “insulting feelings of religious people”. two gay men got married in Finland and “accidentally” had their marriage confirmed here; the marriage was annulled and they got sued.

well, i think you got me. it’s not as bad here as it seems. it’s also not as good as it could be. that’s why some problems discussed on tumblr seem so funny to me. like, people are worried about whether aces belong to queer community (have nothing against aces!! they’re amazing an deserve love and respect!! just taking this as an example) or whether queer is a slur, when in some countries people can’t decide whether gay people are actually people who deserve basic human rights. like, shouldn’t we figure it out first?

[meliorn]

Normally I would be open to that but considering your friends I don't exactly feel safe doing that but honestly just read the post a little more carefully the homophobia isn't really hidden

look, i’m sorry, i’m really trying to be open here and i get not feeling safe enough to come off anon so i’m not judging that but you can’t justify not being willing to talk to me in private with “considering your friends”. what is that even supposed to mean? it might have been a mistake reblogging that post, i’m willing to talk about that and i try my best to be open to changing if i’m called out on something problematic, but what the fuck am i supposed to do with that? which of my friends are you even talking about? why is it relevant what my friends think if it’s a private conversation between us? why do you think insulting my friends is a good way of going about this conversation? i’m so confused and i don’t know how i’m supposed to react to this

and i have read it through and as i said in my tags, i don’t agree with the positioning of gay/bi/binary people as privileged because it’s easier to find terminology for those identities. i definitely don’t think there’s any systematic power given to gay people just because gay is a more well-defined term. i don’t think gay people have it easier than people who self-identify as queer. i really, really don’t. i know that a lot of lgbt people have issues with the word and for cultural reasons (in sweden where i’m from it’s common practice within the lgbt movement to use queer as an umbrella term), that never occured to me until i came in contact with the international lgbt community. but now i know better so i’m working on removing it from my vocabulary when i’m talking lgbt issues in general.

however! i do think there’s a lack of general, inclusive language to describe people who don’t feel comfortable with single labels, or who for various reasons need multiple labels for themselves, or who just don’t feel comfortable with labels such as gay, bi, pan, etc. these people aren’t more or less oppressed than gay, bi, pan, etc people. just because i think there’s a value in finding vague, inclusive language to include the people who aren’t included in “lgbt”, doesn’t mean i think gay people aren’t oppressed anymore, or that ppl who self-identify as queer are more oppressed. i genuinely don’t think so. but as someone who’s struggled with labels and not really fitting in anywhere, queer has helped me a lot. and i know it’s not good to use it about lgbt people in general, and i’m working on not doing that anymore, but it’s an extremely useful word for me personally and as the post said, to my knowledge there’s no other word that has that function. so for me, i’m using queer because i don’t have any other word that works for me. 

[incarnateirony]

as an emerging lgbtq+ (i'm 'BT') guy i am so glad you're making the point you made in your last post. I've always gravitated towards Dean because he is so 'imperfect' in his queerness, like me. but he's not a uwu soft queer so apparently that bothers a lot of ppl on here? Especially younger queer women, I've noticed. But a lot of guys, cis and trans, struggle with being attracted to men so much in a way that is simply different (not better or worse) than (1/2)

being wlw, especially depending on one’s generation and region, etc. basically what i’m saying is a lot of the few queer men that there are in the fandom stay quieter as it is almost completely queer women dictating what is and what isnt, and not quite empathizing with the unique struggle many queer men have with internalized homophobia/being Unmanly for being attracted to men. hope this wasn’t too all over the place, ive had this on my mind for a Long time and i’m glad you brought it up. (2/2)

ps: I’m not trying to put down queer women for being a significant part of the fandom. I just really wish the environment of the fandom felt more like somewhere queer men’s voices can be heard better, considering the largest pairing is, needless to say, mlm

Well, first of all, welcome Nonnie. I take it you’re addressing this untitled post addressing intersectionality, representation vs tokenization, represented demographics and just general motivations of those in discussion, yes? (x)

You’ll find this is a longstanding topic of my blog, be it excavating creator commentary people have buried for their own motivations and talked down and around, or dual faceted issues. 

(If you haven’t read the crosslinks on the post you’re addressing, you may want to read The Problem With Dreamhunter (x) It discusses exactly this issue, even if it was written over a year ago at that point, showing just how cyclic this issue is. It talks about MLM/WLW intersectional issues, migrating goalposts, a bunch of show stuff and some of Bobo’s sociopolitical commentary from 2003 about advancing LGBT representation through moderate incremental methods being proven effective at expanding the media presence/platform exponentially above liberal, or more severe/extreme styles)

But when it comes down to it, basically: Yeah, you right.

I didn’t just arbitrarily develop this opinion. I didn’t… just magically tune in to what the LGBT men that literally dodge fandom, for exactly the reasons you say, and know it’s because of the reasons you say – like that didn’t manifest. It came from leaving fandom (un)”safe” spaces. It came from engaging a great variety of LGBT males in real life, many of which engage the content. From observing how they spoke of the content in multifandom servers, or even *why* they chose to avoid speaking up.

And no, I personally didn’t get a read of you, like, insulting LGBT women for their part in fandom. Women engage social media for primetime TV fandoms at an exponential rate above men, so it’s almost unavoidable and it’s nobody’s fault really, but that says nothing for the perpetual habit of drowning out their voices to the fact that– well, they literally abandon engaging.

I’ve seen it enough times it *hurts* me. I shouldn’t *have* to pull my gay writing buddy out of holes to face this, and him still hide silently. I shouldn’t *have* to be the vein of news and information on the show to the bi male friend I have that refuses to touch this fandom. I shouldn’t *have* to even speak up about this. I really do want *you all* to speak up about this, because I can only speak so far, because you’re right: OUR JOURNEYS ARE DIFFERENT.

Hell, even a cis lgbt male vs a trans lgb(t obvious) male have entirely different journeys even though they’re both validly men. These battles are not the same. One community can speak up to defend another, and help hold them up and amplify them if there’s just not enough of them to project the way they need to, and this is something *greatly under respected* in this fandom. Nobody’s holding up the LGBT male voices when actually talking about representation. And you’re right, it’s mostly women, and you’re right, our path is different and our struggles and needs and wants and lives are different. But unless you take a considerable amount of time talking and sharing and learning personally the perspective of the LGBT male community, you’re not… really… helping them speak.

And let it be said, “holding up LGBT male voices” does not and should never equate to “despite having multiple LGBT men saying one thing, I found the one LGBT male saying the thing that matches what I want, who may or may not even actually be in the targeted demographic set of the character we’re discussing representation about, because it’s more than just being bi, it’s entire lives, paths and challenges– but you know, I found the ONE, so fuck the others.” That’s using your friends as tokens and cards. If you want to genuinely add to the conversation, what you do is you introduce your male LGBT friend to the other male LGBT friends and let them have a long conversation to talk out the sources of their disagreements before engaging in conversation.

But drawing a pretty base line collective from all people in the represented demographic, respectfully learning the majority wants and needs and struggles, and helping voice those is pretty key.

Women can sit here all day, and pass around things they’ve been told by other women are woke points, or things that sound progressive and good, and often sort of decontextualized from their purpose (be that the dresswear mentioned shortly hereafter, or what LGBT want/expect/SHOULD want or expect – but in the end, if you’re not sitting down and having dialogues – not just with one, or two, or even three LGBT men – but large handfuls and subsets, able to actually critically examine the differences in LGBT males of gen X, Y, or Z and their lives and stories – if you’re not doing that… If *that* isn’t the core of your discussion values, rather than pass-along buzz vibes– then you’re really not talking representation. You think you are. But you’re not.

There’s the uh. Thing. You noticed. About how women expect the men to engage.

When it comes to young queer women, I’m going to risk pissing some people off, but the long and short of it is (I could probably dig up the link but it’s been an eternity) a while ago they ran a psychological study to figure out why young women were attracted to yaoi, and gay porn, especially what is essentially stereotypical force-role type gay porn. It has to do with blooming attraction, primal fear, and trying to make the men more appealing in a way that does not intimidate them. 

This later manifests into feminizing them, setting twink/bear roles that go beyond into top/bottom, and conflating it with penetration, position, power, dom/sub, fork/spoon, sometimes served with a dose of internalized misogyny being projected into the vessel of whatever twink/sub is positioned, and generally— like, kink culture. Often this is passed with narrowly progressive-masked arguments of “Men should be allowed to be feminine if they want!” rather than a genuine answer to, “Why do you perpetually heterosexually resize, or reframe, and enforce heterosexual structure onto characters that do not meet this mold, and why is that a personal gain to you?” because in the end– it’s a personal gain. And again, at that point it’s not about representation.

Now again, I’m not… shaming anyone for having a kink. But kink/fetish needs/wants have blurred themselves in as if to hedge on equal territory to discussing canon content. Or sprinkling the quite literal fetishized art (power to you if that’s your thing, I guess, even if I do bear discomfort over fetishization of any LGBT demographic, even by another LGBT demographic) and reasoning with dialogue that implies it as being representative, and inserting that into the representation discussion, which *literally* just makes the entire bog muddier, makes the LGBT men trying to speak more easily dismissed in a vat of “just women/fetishists”, it just– it’s Not a Good. I’m… personally not a fan of it. Like at all. A lot of it makes me angry tbh. So I don’t engage. I don’t browse fanfiction. I look at very little art. 

Hell most of the people around here don’t even realize it’s actually a *minority* of LGBT men that choose to engage in penetrative sex, but it’s become a topic of outright obsession around here. There is so much simple… lack of awareness and discussion of the lives LGBT men lead, even by LGBT women because again – we don’t have your path. We can only listen to you. (And BOY have I gotten earfuls from my LGBT male friends absolutely going apeshit banana bonkers over fandom’s obsession with penetration culture, gender role enforcement while feigning it as liberation, and all kinds of other stuff. And that’s what I base most of my talking points on.)

Because if I’m going to talk representation, I’m going to talk about representing the demographic the character is supposed to represent, not molding him into a tokenized wash-over of every single person’s wants. If you’re an LGBT woman that can resonate with Dean Winchester, that’s great. Sometimes representation can be shared. But a character’s origin determines what demo he represents and not all of any given representative’s character’s attributes, methods, functions, anything – not all of it is going to meet any one person’s goals collectively, but the target demographic is inevitably closer to it.

Another point to raise is that it feels like people have lost track of *what* the representation battle is about. It isn’t just about any one person attaching to any one character. It’s about developing a TVscape that looks more representative of the real world, with a fair presence of PoC, of women, of LGBT people of all types, of the disabled community, of people that are even more than one of these, of people with different stories: people. About, well, normalizing it, because it should be normal. About saturating television enough that one day, and that day will not just be tomorrow per convenience, that people won’t be desperate for representation even vaguely in their wheelhouse, that they can turn on and see people of any intersectional type and go– wow, the world finally realizes we’re real. And that in that wide, realistic menu, yes, being able to turn a channel and eventually see someone *just like you*. A day when any show turned on has at least *someone* in your wheelhouse because every show eventually should have some sort of realistic spread, but if you find the *right* show, *there you are.*

That’s how it’s built. We don’t start by footstomping and tokenizing everyone to be vaguely representative of everyone or it doesn’t count because it didn’t work for *them*. We start by sharing truly diverse narratives, each unique to their own, just as diverse as straight stories are, maybe even more. That’s the only way you’re actually going to end up with a TVscape full of The Gays, and full enough to find *explicitly yourself* in there.

Deleting normalized, non-sensationalist text for lacking either visibility or flavor, even if you weren’t the intended demographic for it to speak to, is quite literally contrary to the entire fight.

and tbh?

This shit is why I hate shipping culture.

And I say that as someone who presumably “ships” Dean and Cas, if it’s shipping to address canon bullshit happening in front of you and just watch the show as it folds out without going into denial for *whatever* personal reason. 

There’s a lot of well intended people, most shipping fandom is full of good beans, but as a collective group – skewed by sociopathically manipulated dialogues we can literally track the origins of – have been driven into much of the above while genuinely believing they were doing the right thing, in a long chain of being told this was what and how to fight for, without really stopping and critically examining the nuance of the conversation. Because why would you? Seems to be the popular gay thing to do – while a lot of bisexual people currently hide their commentary via reblog hashtags or hedge awkwardly into an anon box sideways.

That all said, it continues to be my focus. It will never change on this blog. I will never surrender to being pressured, be it by antis or bitters or people just wanting to argue, into pretending things that were text are subtext. I will not move that goalpost. You are real, and you are valid, and you are welcome in my inbox any time, Nonnie, confidentiality guaranteed. Like, DM too.

but lmao like shit, dawg. There’s a reason the LGBT guys I’ve had as writing partners as Dean literally refuse to play with another Cas. That’s not just because I’m a *super aweSOME auTHOr*, it’s because they recognize I do not come from the wing lost to fanfiction, to troll wars, or even to shipping culture, love of a ship be damned. I don’t try to force gender roles on them. I listen when they speak, and often, surprise many with the angle I ever enter discussion or listening from to begin with, because of spending so many years listening to begin with. It’s an intrinsic understanding of why they resonate with the content, not what I can pull some transformative art stuff on or wanting to *make* it into anything else to fit *my* molds. It’s because of being someone engaged to the male perspective, without the need to twist or change a character to be content with it, and being WILLING to hold those challenging conversations.

Listen first. Talk later. But never in front of or over the people you claim to be talking for.