#i think adrien would still feel guilty that she doesn't know who he is

[carpisuns]

cant stop thinking about how elation might have played out if:

a) marinette did not repeatedly refer to herself as a "fan" but rather a friend, since they have been through a lot together and have hung out and gone to the movies. and she has also yelled at him angrily multiple times, unlike any other starstruck fan he's ever met

b) andré ran a normal business and just like. served the customers who approach his cart lol

[fortuna-et-cataclysmos]

I have just watched Determination in the light of Derision and I have some retrospective analysis to make. See, this whole season, I have been trying to understand Marinette's behaviour in s5, and after Derision, everything is starting to fit together.

In Determination, Adrien asks Marinette to meet him at the Grévin Museum, because his feelings have changed and he wants to further explore what that means. Marinette is now aware that there is some romance developing between her and Adrien. She should be thrilled, right? That's everyone's reaction, but she is worried, scared.

When she opens up about her worries to Luka, she basically says two things:

That when she is in love, she does foolish things and she is afraid of being in love because of that

That she isn't sure about her feelings for Adrien anymore, explicitely questioning whether she truly knows Adrien

Before Derision, I always thought that Marinette's reservation from being in couple with Adrien was because of what happened in Risk and how her love for him was making her do foolish things. That's what she kept repeating, to Luka, to Alya, to herself, after all.

But there was one thing that really disturbed me about this explanation: then why was she finally embracing her romantic affection for Chat in that very same episode? Wasn't love turning her into a fool? Hadn't she convinced herself many times before that love was harmful to Ladybug's mission and that she cannot be in love with anyone, ever? Didn't she break up with Luka because of that?

And the fact that her feelings blossoming for Chat Noir in this episode nearly caused their defeat not once, but twice, was the icing on the cake (once when the wax Chat Noir manipulates her, and the second time when Chat gets captured and she thoughtlessly jumps to save him, hence getting captured herself). It is obvious that harbouring feelings for Chat Noir is distracting her as much as having them for Adrien, then why still embrace them? Why decide that she is in love with Chat the same episode that she has cold feet of being with Adrien?

Things didn't add up, and I was getting frustrating with the writing for being so inconsistant in Marinette's feelings and behaviour.

Then, Derision came out. Suddenly, we have a very strong backstory of Marinette, the kind we never had before. And everything fell into place.

In Derision, we learned of Marinette's trauma with confessing to Kim, and how she later on swore to never let herself fall in love with someone before she knows them fully, and to never trust someone who is Chloé's friend again.

Cue to the second worry she shared with Luka in Determination: that she may not know Adrien as well as she think she does. He is Chloé's friend after all, isn't he? What if he ends up treating her the way Kim did? (I have another post dedicated to this if you're interested)

The parallel between Kim and Adrien is too much for Marinette. We tend to underplay the impact of traumas, because they make us feel weak, stupid. Why would she be so impacted by a stupid prank, right? Facing the truth that Chloé and Kim's prank did a real number on her, to the point of making her scared of being in a relationship with Adrien is too much for Marinette to handle. Especially after pursuing him for nearly a year.

So what does she do? She finds another reason to not be in love with Adrien. A rational one. Like, how being in love makes her do stupid things, so she must not be in love with Adrien for the sake of Ladybug's mission.

This justification does have truth in it: she does feel guilty about prioritising Adrien over her mission while under the effect of Risk. But that's not the main reason she is trying to distance herself from Adrien. If it were, it would have also been valid in the case of Chat Noir. The same reason would have also pushed her to deny her feelings to Chat Noir. It doesn't. To the contrary, in the same episode she denies her feelings for Adrien, she embraces those for Chat Noir.

Why? Why Chat Noir? To quote Alya in Passion:

You find yourself a new lover the moment Adrien starts to have feelings for you. Coincidence? I think not. I think you may be running away from your feelings.

Chat Noir is the perfect go-to crush for Marinette, someone to funnel all that affection she holds for Adrien because: 1) she trusts him a lot, even though she doesn't know who is behind the mask. Chat has proven again and again that he'll be there for her, even at her worst. So he is a safe choice - minus Luka. But she never loved Luka the way she loves Adrien, did she? I assume not. Which brings me to a hypothetical 2); in an unconscious level, maybe she recognises that Adrien and Chat Noir are similar, interchangeable even. I wonder why 🙄

So she ends up replacing her dreams and love for Adrien with Chat Noir. But as I mentioned before, this doesn't solve any of her worries. For one thing, loving Chat Noir distracts Ladybug just as critically as Adrien does. Ladybug's failures in Determination is proof of that. But also, replacing Adrien with Chat Noir doesn't address her worries concerning her trauma and trust issues either: she is worried that she may not know Adrien fully because he is friends with Chloé, but she is uncomfortable with loving Chat Noir because after all, she can never know who truly is behind the mask.

As such, when we see Marinette break down at the end of Determination under the rain, we hear her say:

It's a catastrophe. I think I am falling in love.

She is looking at a poster of Chat Noir as she is saying that, but she never completes her sentence to say "I think I am falling in love with Chat Noir." Because the issue here is not Chat Noir, per se, it is the fact that she is falling in love despite herself, again. And with someone who conflicts her just as much as Adrien, again. She does realise that things aren't getting better for her, that loving Chat Noir won't be the resolution to her romantic anxiety she so desperately seeks.

Still, in the later episodes (like Elation), we see her managing to ignore the bad feelings her experience with Kim has left her, and letting herself love freely Chat Noir, even if for one night. That's a real success, if you ask me. She is willing to accept that the past is in the past for both her anxieties and focus instead on what she wants in the present. But the poor girl just can't get a breather.

In Elation, the Monarch nearly akumatises her, reminding her that when she is in love she is weak and prone to mistakes - see worry number one she shares with Luka.

And everyone, including the freaking supervillain, is telling her that she is ought to be Adrien, hence remind her all the worries she has concerning not knowing him well enough, and exacerbate her fear of repeating her trauma.

Consequently, at the end of Elation, she gets depressed. She can't love Adrien, she can't love Chat Noir. She is entangled in two worries, one stemming from being Ladybug and the other from her past as Marinette, and she can't see the light at the end of the tunnel. She now also knows that trying to stop loving someone just doesn't work, because she tried it before, and failed. What else can she do? She is stuck. Up until, to the Kwamiis Choice, which I must also rewatch before analysing further lol. But that's the gist of it.

[goldensmilingbird]

Please tell us about your new blorbo Neel! What captured your attention, what kind of character is he and how is the overall show he is starring in?

Thank you for asking :)

Sorry it took a while to answer, I have lots of thoughts but they were all kinda scrambled.

Okay, so, the show.

I think I need to explain the basics of the plot first. So there's two storylines. First one is about how the Duke of Normandy died and his heir (our main character) escaped, and now he pretends to be a normal peasant boy named Hugo, while various lords and ladies are trying to get their hands on him and the throne. And Neel's mother, Dame Neel (I guess it's a family name), promised to her husband that she'll put their son on the throne by the time he's back. Keep in mind that Neel and "Hugo" are both twelve. These boys are not even in their teens yet.

The second storyline is about how there is a giant dragon Loki trapped underground, and that if Hugo doesn't learn runes and renew his ancestor's spell, he'll free himself and the world will literally end. So basically he has to fake being a normal boy with a normal life so he doesn't get kidnapped or killed, but also save the world. That's the gist of it.

I watched about half of the show so far (14 out of 26 episodes), and I really enjoy it. The beginning might feel kinda slow, but it gets better. The animation is 3D with this 2D look. The first time I saw an image from the show, I thought it looked cool, and it kinda reminded me of the Cartoon Saloon style, especially the backgrounds. And turns out the studio (Les Armateurs) did work with them on Secret of Kells, and also they were involved in some other cool stuff I watched or heard of, like Long Long Holiday, Ernest and Celestine (the movies and the show), Triplets of Belleville, etc. But I'm kinda getting off-topic. Point is, they got experience.

But back to Neel. His mom is very protective of him, but she's also strict, and he really wants to impress her, only to end up disappointing her again. He's physically weak, not good at handling weapons and overall not great viking material. His father is out of the picture, but his mother brings him up once in a "what would he think of you now?" way, and he also has abandonment issues after his father leaving him.

So far we got absent parent, strict parent, abandonment issues, low self-esteem, he's isolated from other kids his age and runs away from the castle multiple times, his mom even gets sick because of a magical artifact sapping her energy at some point... This boy is so Adrien-coded, I swear.

There is one other close person in his life though, the only one who shows him affection - and that's the head guard Ulrich, the guy who is hunting down the main character. And he is that one person Neel is afraid would leave him. Neel absolutely adores this guy. He's so happy every time he sees him, I find it adorable.

He wants to go out there and help him and fight by his side, but Ulrich's main job is to keep him safe, so he's not letting that happen. Did I mention Neel almost died one time? That was because he sneaked away to try and help Ulrich again.

And Ulrich is interesting to me because he's so loyal to this family that serving them is pretty much his only goal. And even if he might feel guilty about some of the horrible things he's done, he can still justify them to himself. At some point, looking after Neel became more than just a duty though. In his own words, he has the weakness to consider him his own son.

There are lot of familial ties in this show. Hugo loses his parents and has to live with a new family. His mentor/father figure, who Ulrich killed, parallels Ulrich himself. Even the other antagonists are a family. I just really enjoy that.

I'm hoping Neel would be more involved in the second part of the season, I feel like him and Hugo are starting to become friends, and who knows, maybe even his father will come back. And there was a plot twist in the last episode that I kinda didn't expect, so I'm interested to see where it goes.

Anyway, it's a fun show, and it has some good characters and story. And if any of you like medieval settings or Norse mythology, you might enjoy that as well. One thing that upsets me though is that this show is only available in English on a right-wing streaming service, and the money from it go to like, the worst kind of people. So here are the links where you can watch the show for free!

First ten episodes in English dub (new ones come out on Saturdays)

English subtitle files

French episodes with French subs

Thanks for coming to my Neel talk 🙏

And please, check out the show

[theerurishipper]

Do you think Adricat hates himself?

Hi!

I wouldn’t say hate, but he does have very low self-worth. He believes very sincerely that no one could like him as he is, so he has to put on masks and act a certain way around them to please them. So he can never be himself, and he doesn’t think that anyone would like him if he behaved like he wanted to. This is, as all things are, Gabriel’s fault. We see him say many times that Adrien is overly emotional, and Gabriel wants nothing but perfection from him. If Adrien acts out, he gets punished, and if he conforms perfectly to Gabriel’s wishes, he just gets neglected, and maybe gets a scrap of attention from him if he’s really lucky.

Because of Gabriel’s controlling nature and his tendency to deny Adrien any affection unless he acts like he wants, Adrien has internalized the idea that love is conditional and that he has to earn it by pleasing the people around him. Which is why Chat Noir is so healing for him (until Season 4). It’s not the “true” him or anything, because Chat Noir is still a mask. He swings to the opposite end of the metaphorical pendulum there and acts out a lot, so even though it’s part of who he is, it’s still an exaggeration and not all of who he is. But he doesn’t have to please anyone in that role. Ladybug accepts him, cat puns and all, and he gets to be free. It’s an escape from his abusive home.

He occasionally tries to act out and go after what he wants as Adrien, but most of the time, he does listen to his father. Because this is how abusers like Gabriel behave. It’s a cycle. Gabriel is controlling, Adrien listens to him, Adrien gets tired of it at some point and tries to rebel, Gabriel gaslights and manipulates him, Adrien listens to him again. If it gets to be too much for Adrien and he seems very ready to fight for it, Gabriel offers him the smallest of concessions and the slightest bit of attention so that he won’t try to break free of him, and it starts all over again. I don’t have enough faith in the writers anymore to know if this was intentional, but it’s a very accurate portrayal of an abuser. Adrien expresses disappointment with Gabe sometimes in the early seasons, but he still makes excuses for his behavior because he loves Gabriel and believes the best of him, and wants Gabriel to love him.

Gabe is a master at gaslighting. In The Collector, Gabriel had a copy of his book the whole time, and he still pretended that Adrien had hurt him, and threw all that stuff in his office around to make it look like he was deeply distraught, all so that he could hammer it into Adrien that it was his fault. And again in Illusion, when he goes on bemoaning about what he did wrong in raising Adrien when he knew Adrien was listening so that he could make him feel guilty. All this just reinforces in Adrien that it is his fault if Gabriel doesn’t love him, that he’s not good enough as himself because he makes Gabriel sad and hurt by being that way, and that he has to pretend to be perfect for him and everyone else. If someone doesn’t love him, it’s his own fault. If someone is upset with him, it can’t be anything other than his fault.

Gabe says things like “You’re too emotional to be allowed to make decisions, it’s your fault,” and Adrien believes him. He’s not good as himself, he has to be perfect. He has to be exactly who the other person wants him to be. This is what he did in Kuro Neko with Ladybug. He thought she didn’t like him as he was, so he tried to be the partner she wanted him to be. It’s why he always downplays his own emotional needs and feelings, because he’s been told that his emotions don’t matter and that they are a burden, and so he can’t bother other people by having them. That they won’t like him if he shows them his true feelings, and in fact they'll be hurt.

So to actually answer your question, I don’t think he hates himself. Hate is a pretty strong word. But he doesn't have much self-esteem and self-worth. He doesn’t dislike himself so much as he doesn’t really know who “himself” is, because he’s been forced to conform to Gabe’s expectations of who he should be his whole life. I hope this answers your question.

Thank you for your ask!

[taketwoinink]

SEQUEL PART ABOUT ADRIEN! (and lowkey Marinette)

contains spoilers for Miraculous seasons 1-4 but especially 4

Adrien. Risk. Strikeback.

These two episodes give us such a dive into Adrien and how Gabriel has affected him.

So- there's so much to be said on this topic and I don't have the spoons to lay it all out. I'll get to that eventually on my very long Miraculous infodump I'm still working on *lighthearted cri*

But the biggest thing we learn

Is that Adrien is afraid to talk to people

Yeah we already knew that

But he only confided in Marinette BECAUSE of Risk's influence. Otherwise he would have stayed quiet.

Which the conversation they have spark all of Marinette's actions throughout the rest of Risk. If she had thought Adrien was legitimately excited to go on this trip, she would have acted differently! She may have let him go without a fuss (though she still would have tried to confess)

She tried to stop him because she knew he didn't want to go

And why didn't he want to go?

because he was leaving everything he loved behind

Now theories as to why he doesn't confide in anyone

Because he's probably tried before. With Gabriel.

Gabriel. Who is cold to him. Gabriel. Who doesn't listen. Gabriel. Who shoots his concerns down before they even get off the ground.

So Adrien takes all of those interactions from his father into the rest of his life. He learns that nobody will listen to him. He learns to stay quiet, keep his head down, don't rock the boat, don't say what's really on your mind.

He does this with Ladybug. He respects Ladybug, he wants her to love him (not even just romantically).

HE ALWAYS WANTS GABRIEL TO LOVE HIM

How does he think he can get Gabriel's love? By being obedient, by being the perfect son, by not arguing, by just going along with what will make his father happy.

So much of Ladybug's actions in season 4 especially bother Adrien. But he doesn't bring it up. He's scared. He doesn't want to make a fuss. He probably thinks he shouldn't be feeling this way at all.

He's obedient, he does what Ladybug wants, he stays quiet on what he's really feeling. When he does try to communicate his problems to her, he doesn't really go into it as much as he should because... she just has reassurances right there and he doesn't know how to talk about it anyway, it's easier just to let it go and not make her feel guilty at all.

Anyway. Random late night thoughts and character analysis.

[keeperofthebox]

sunny made a post about songs so i shall do it too since it gave me the courage 😌 here's 1 out of 2 lyric annotations of the most replayed songs on my bon voyage playlist... i'll type out the second one in a bit ^_^

our song - radiator hospital

this song is about getting cheated on which isn't quite adrien's situation but the imagery brought up in the lyrics really really just makes me think of him 😭

btw this might be LONG

chapter 2 specifically but really any moment in the fic where chat noir is begging marinette to look at him or touch him or pay attention to him and she isn't and he knows it's because of "adrien". but he still HATES it. but he knows that she is exhausted because everything going on is insane but he still can't help but make it a self-put-down because he is SPIRALLING

when she left to go stand on the roof of felix's apartment building to talk to "adrien" 😭😭😭 any time she would have briefly interacted with "adrien" while they were in paris dealing with one of their friends or her family getting akumatized 😭😭😭 chat noir has stood there and watched his girlfriend turn into that shy awkward marinette he's used to and leave to get privacy with "her boyfriend" so. many. times. over the course of their journey. but mostly i think of when she went to take that phone call

he's BITTER he's RESENTFUL because he wants marinette to look at him, he doesn't feel loved or cared for, he's starved for attention so he does often feel like she's not loving him right even though considering their situation that's not fair 😭😭😭 because she doesnt know his identity under the mask 😭😭😭

and like i said its NOT fair so he feels SO guilty for having these kinds of thought spirals. everything hes doing makes him feel guilty. hes being so hot and cold with her and sending such mixed signals.

+ "you know i won't"... he's subconsciously thinking of all the grand and dramatic things he's done for her as chat noir and ladybug as proof of his devotion to her & their cause. and he hasn't processed how all of the times ladybug REJECTED him after those gestures is affecting him right now. he feels like that same guy throwing a temper tantrum over her not being open enough with him, and coming back to her every time with his tail between his legs. she should know he'd never hold it against her he's loved her so much this whole time and there's like this hurting resentful self hatey tone to it and AGH

TIBET BABY. his feelings about that DAMN SLEEP MASK!!!! any time they have to get up immediately to go deal with an akuma. any time he woke up and ladybug was ignoring him or out doing something. every other morning like how they trade off on who's transformed 😭

when she finally cuddled him after days and days of him suggesting it and he felt like he was on top of the entire world and having the best time of his life but he was the only one feeling that elated... and then that moment being destroyed when marinette confronted him about what happened in chapter 3 at felix's apartment 😭😭😭

he is trying to lift marinette's burdens on top of his own and it's crushing him

THIS TIME the "if you're thinking that we're through" is about felix's major fuckup in chapter 4 😭 chat noir wont blame her if she needs to dump "adrien" over that

literally this is just. literally. marinette is struggling she has the weight of the world on her shoulders and although adrien is trying to help her carry it i don't think he understands it fully because he's so lost and confused with his own issues (which is FAIR he is FOURTEEN 😭😭😭)

but when he does see those moments of how sad she is like... he cant comfort her the way he wants to because he's chat noir to her. not adrien. he can't make a sound he has to just lay there paralyzed because if he moves to console her the way he wants everything will be ruined

in chapter 5 when he's briefly convinced marinette is going to leave him for luka 😭😭😭 the perceived betrayal of her hugging him. its objectively fine that she was hugging him adrien was just freaking Out. because he'd been thinking over and over in different ways "marinette is going to leave me for luka" working himself up into a panic and then she hugs luka and it was like seeing a worst nightmare prophecy get fulfilled

two things... first, him running immediately after the luka hug. sort of like "marinette is definitely going to leave me and marry luka and i'm not gonna stick around and watch". but more importantly, him creating distance between himself and marinette after that situation gets resolved. he still wants marinette more than anything and it is her inability to truly "see" him at the heart of the issue but hes the one saying hes gotta go

but he loves her so he can't accept that he blames her for any of it

if you actually read this far thank you sfghjshf hope you enjoyed me being unhinged about my Own Blorbo

[flightfoot]

Adrien only being annoyed and irritated for being accused of poisoning, getting the end of unprovoked violence and everything horrible Marinette do to him is very in character considering he's very patient but boy... I really hate it when male getting violence then it's violence but when female getting violence it means as a joke, provoked or not. When Marinette just judo flip him I was really hope he'd flip her back because you know, it's fine because it's self-defence.

Also what with people not liking what Marinette do in that AU and be called stupid or salter? Marinette Stan that I've seen do be like that always, their queen could do no wrong and I hate that mentality because what Marinette do is horrible, it wasn't even fair accusations. Just because her action is understandable doesn't make it justified and some people really need to accept that.

To be fair, Marinette at least does believe that Adrien poses a major threat. But yeah, I ain't especially fond of that double standard, and it just felt unnecessary to me for her to judo flip him like that, seemingly just to intimidate him and not because she believed he was an imminent physical threat, after he'd already poked holes in her theory by proving that the cake wasn't poisoned. I think that's probably why it's rankled people so much, given that ultimately the emotional pain is likely to be more harmful to Adrien than any physical pain he got from this.

As for calling people who aren't happy with what Marinette did during this part of BEAU stupid or just accusing them of hating Marinette in general... yeah I don't agree with that. Based on what she's perceived and the mental state she's in, it makes sense that she thinks Adrien is a threat, and that he poisoned the pastries. But with how far she went and how much it either visibly looked like it was hurting or upsetting Adrien, or like it logically would, and how much the theory was based on a very particular interpretation of the facts... I can see why Marinette's doing the things she is based off of what she thinks, but she's still wrong and causing a lot of harm in pursuit of a half-baked theory.

I don't want to go down any line of reasoning that's like, accusing Marinette of being a horrible person overall, or calling on horrible things to happen to her. She doesn't deserve that. She's making a terrible mistake, but I'm expecting she'll feel guilty as hell once she finally accepts that and try to make up for it. Also I just don't like punitive justice much overall.

But yeah I'm not fond of the whole "anything Marinette does, even if it really hurts other characters, is fine, they'll just laugh it off later" sentiment, or the idea that "Marinette is incapable of causing harm to others no matter what she actually does". Marinette can overall be caring and try to protect and help people, and still sometimes do things that really hurt others with dubious justification for it. Being upset about that isn't unreasonable, especially if the other character is greatly harmed.

[toujoursmiraculous]

THOUGHTS AND REACTION TO KURO NEKO

Because the subs got released so late, I get to watch so late. Which means I'm tired as heck. BUT STILL IT'S TOTALLY WORTH IT! The first like 5 minutes hurt me so badly I had to keep pausing to get through it. But okay. Obviously Chat's been feeling really bad after Ephemeral when he couldn't join in the fight. To us, we see that episode as them revealing themselves, ending up together, and then having that just be erased because it brought on the end of the world. Again. Like no big deal, right? But to Adrien, it was, "I missed a fight they were able to win on their own, so I wasn't needed. She was going to talk to me about something, but no! After the time apparitions were taken care of, suddenly it wasn't important anymore. Am I not important anymore?" and here we have the current situation.

And I totally get why Ladybug said to the reporter that Chat Noir's a partner like any other. She wants Parisians to know that regardless of who's there, or not, Paris will be safe. And if there's speculation that Ladybug and Chat Noir have problems, that could be used against them. It's a real thin line to walk. But the sad thing is, Adrien at this point seems to have decided not to show up. Ladybug can't be calling him all the time asking him to come, and he usually never needed to unless she was super desperate and tried to reach him. And since Ladybug doesn't know he's Adrien.... This is where Ladybug knowing about him but him not about her would be a really good idea... Also it's sounding like Ladybug needs to start letting him help with the guardian stuff. But I do think that'd be a rather tricky thing when they don't know about each other.... "You can take my Miraculous when you are done!" "That would be perfect! So see you later!" That right there tells you how all over the place her mind is when he says something like that, and it takes her awhile to actually process what he just said. Her time's running out as much as everyone else's. Also... how did Adrien get down? 😂 Curious minds want to know. She didn't do anything, she thinks. But she did, and it sucks because her duties and having so much responsibility is the thing she did wrong. She has all these things she has to do and then she has Chat Noir being the way he is with his flirting or his silly behavior and it's tough when while you're partners, everything really rests on you. Their relationship really isn't balanced that way, he needs to start helping her with it somehow. Also Adrien really should've discussed how he feels too. Like really get into it. Ladybug asked Chat before if everything was okay. Would've been a good opening for him to ask if they could talk. But he chose not to, so in that way a lot of this is on him, too. I also think that even if Chat Noir can't be there for a fight, if she could find time to just spend time with him, without a fight going on, that would make things so much better. But I can also see why she'd worry about that, thinking he's taking it the wrong way or something. The animation in this episode... I need to know who animates it. All the expressions, Adrien's irritation, disgust, depression, confusion, etc, Tikki's guilty face, and Marinette having stayed up all night with messy hair and dark circles. I'm in love. WHO DID THIS BECAUSE IT'S FANTASTIC! Okay, Adrien throwing away all the pictures of her, Plagg's cheese, Plagg's sock, deleting them from his phone... Dang when he'd break up with someone he deeply cares about, he really goes for a clean slate right away, huh?

MUAHAHAHAHA! 😂 I love how they were like, hey this episode is kind of heart-crushing. How do we liven it up? *insert Shadow Moth's MUAHAHAHA's and funny-sounding violin music* ADRIEN IN PAJAMAS! I WAITED SO LONG TO SEE HIM NOT SLEEP IN HIS STREET CLOTHES! But stoooop with depressed Adrien! My heart hurts to much for this! 😭 And then suddenly incoming Marinette with her hair totally a mess and dark circles under her eyes. We have seen Marinette stay up late/all night more than once. NEVER did she look this bad. This is what her Kitty leaving looks like.

Adrien doesn't want to go to school?! That's when you know it's serious! Our boy LOVES school! Also the fact Nathalie needs help walking with tech... Gabriel: Adrien has 3 days before I need him? Nah he'll be fine before then, I'm not worried. I mean... it looks like he's right, but still. Dude. Check on your son! Plagg is an genius. Absolute genius! Trying to trick Marinette into believing that he knows someone that would be a good fit for the Miraculous, to then set it up so that this new Cat hero will be everything she'd ever want so she'd fall for him to know exactly what it's like to fall for your partner and how difficult it is. You evil little genius. I love him xD Also Tikki's guilty smile is everything. The expressions in this episode are beautiful! This is also a good idea of what it'd be like if Marinette had Plagg for a Kwami instead LOL Marinette's not buying what Plagg's selling, but because of Tikki and the desperate situation, she does it anyway. xD "Can she trust me or not?" Tikki: *nervous smile and nod* Plagg did wonderfully in the end so she was right to go along with it but hahaha she was so nervous about it lol Alright. So better look at his pajamas. Honestly love them better than his regular clothes! They just look so nice and simple, but stylish. Matching. And he's...he's running his character into the wall over and over in a game.... Aw honey no. Don't be like that! That blank stare too 😭 His Kwami, his friend, is there with an opportunity to come back and fix things that are wrong. And he just continues to run his character into the wall. First time I saw it, I was too sad for him to laugh about the ring being thrown at his head by Plagg but 😂 perfect! Adrien's first attempt to transform into a look other than Chat Noir's, and the complete fail looool Adrien: Imma channel Felix for this new look. Plagg: PERFECT! Also his Ladybug mask is so cute!!! I know a lot of people are probably going to be upset by this whole situation, and take it the wrong way. Adrien changing his personality and that the way he acts as Cat Walker being "perfect". But the fact of the matter is, he really couldn't be Chat Noir. And he couldn't exactly be Adrien either, since Adrien *is* Chat Noir. He had to be a bit different than both in order for this to work. And it worked brilliantly! In Ladybug's words, Cat Walker is too perfect. Ladybug and Cat Walker meet, she quizzes him and first thing he says when the supervillain shows up is to go to a safe spot and observe. After doing so, she sees what she believes is an akumatized Chat Noir and panics, screaming loud enough to get the sentimonster's attention. It's a good contrast to see her completely distracted, in her thoughts and letting her feelings get in the way of a fight, while he acts more responsible and serious. But she's used to being the responsible one and her partner being the goofball. I'm only just now noticing that when she apologized to the sentimonster thinking it's Chat, Shadow Moth picked up on it. He knows that something happened with them enough she believes he got akumatized for it, and knew that his ring ended up with someone else oh NO Cat Walker is really stepping up and it's actually really impressive. If Chat took things more seriously in a situation and helped her come up with things so she wouldn't have to all the time, I think their partnership would be even better than it was. Ladybug is so BENT on it being Chat Noir!! "Chat Noir loves to be a clown but I don't think he'd go that far (eating grass)" and Cat Walker's face of pure disgust, you can tell he almost wanted to say "I would never eat grass, what are you saying?!" ((Continuing on today, as I stayed up really late writing the above)) "But what he feels for you shouldn't force you to give him more attention. You take care of everyone equally." I'm glad you see it! Now please remember this, Adrien. 😭 OOPS, looks like she's falling for yet another side of Adrien! But good grief it's really bad! She can't think or function!

Does that look like the face of someone who's okay? NO! You're really messing with this girl lololol

She starts stuttering and he gives her the soft look. I see you back there! She leaped out of his arms SO FAST dang she's getting it really bad, isn't she?

Adrien and Chat Noir who? Girl. GIRL. You know, we all knew Chat Noir would be back in the end, and I wondered how that would come about. I did NOT expect that reason to be because Ladybug was falling for Cat Walker. Also I ship this so much. I didn't know we'd be getting another ship with the already crazy Love Square...Hexagon...Octagon...idk what it is anymore! But I love it.

Well dang. She's known him for like 20 minutes and she's totally smitten. But even though she thinks she just met him, of course he knows her very well, and she knows him well too. So it makes a lot of sense but at the same time it's just hilarious and I love it. Cat Walker is the kind of guy she'd like in a perfect world. A much too perfect world, really. But in the end she realizes what she needs is for things not to be so perfect. Because she couldn't function if this is the Cat hero she worked with every day. Chat Noir handles his feelings for her far better than she does for Cat Walker lol Adrien's worried because they're not working as well as they used to, it's not the same. Plagg being all, of course it's not the same, because you're not the same! Yes, and we have a distracted Ladybug that can't seem to function with you around, that'll sure be a problem. Just goes to show you that there was a reason you were chosen specifically with your personality and all! c: "I know...I lost my kitten too. I miss him." AWWWW 😭 Ahhh he went and found the little girl's kitten, that's so adorable x3 Cat Walker tells her that Plagg's getting the ring back to give to his previous holder, and Ladybug looks sad. Not sure if she's sad he's leaving, sad because if Chat gets it back then there might be problems still that she's worried they can't work out, or both. "But does that mean that Chat Noir is my true self, deep down?" "You are not Chat Noir, and you are not Adrien. You're both of them! You are the perfect successful son, but you are Chat Noir. You want to live your life and have fun! One does not exist without the other!" Wow Plagg. Wow. You really are brilliant! If it wasn't for Adrien, Chat Noir wouldn't be Chat Noir. He'd have no reason to be the goofball we know and love. And if it wasn't for Chat Noir, Adrien would probably not be the Adrien we know today either. Being both helps keep him balanced.

Adrien and Plagg's relationship is just so sweet and adorable I'm so happy we got to see so much of them this episode!!! THE WAY LADYBUG SLIDES OVER TO CHAT AHHHHH! "Just because I need don't need you all the time, doesn't mean I never do!" exactly. And even if she doesn't need him, doesn't mean she doesn't want him there! Just because he's not essential to the plan doesn't mean he can't still be helpful. "You are irreplaceable!" PLEASE REMEMBER IT THIS TIME, ADRIEN. AND KNOW SHE MEANS IT! She kept talking about Chat Noir all night, worrying and upset you know! (when she wasn't lost in her crush on you lololol) Wow this episode was sooo good, I wasn't expecting a lot of what happened at all! I laughed a lot and hurt a lot too, it was great! Now I have a new ship, too. Thank you Miraculous team. :P A lot of good messages, a lot of learning things about themselves too that they didn't know. It was so nice! Obviously things aren't all perfect and wonderful now, but it's a start. And that's what we need. It wouldn't make sense if things were resolved completely yet. She understands him more now, and he understands her more now. Lovely! And again, who animated this? Seriously, I really want to know. If you know who it was, please tell me? Psychomedian's in a few days, that's episode 5 so we're going waaaay back. But I'm hoping for a cute episode before we start getting back into the heavier parts of the end of season 4. For that, I'm really anxiously waiting to find out how this season will come to a close!

[dragonbugsuperior]

Adrien's Manipulation and How He Manipulates

As you can see, I have spoken about the things the ml writers have done and attempted to get away with however I never dug deep into how manipulative Adrien is and how he has manipulated people. I have provided real transcripts from the episodes. You can look it up yourself they're there for everyone to see.

In Malediktator (season 2, episode 24) Chloe threatens to leave Paris, Mr. Bourgeois gets akumatized into Maledikator; invested with absolute power, he wants to make his daughter's dreams come true so that she stays with him. In the episode, Chloe announces that she's leaving Paris to the entire school and the students are thrilled. They were celebrating the fact that their school bully was leaving Paris. Including Marinette, who was also relieved to know her bully/tormentor was leaving Paris. The same girl who's been bullying Marinette for years.

Here's some real transcripts from the actual episodes

Chloé: (from the helicopter, through megaphone) Hey there, losers! I'm headed to New York with my mom. (throws flyers) I'm leaving you all behind in your pathetic little school and your pathetic little city. Adieu!

(Marinette picks up a flyer showing Chloé in front of the Statue of Liberty.)

Nino: Chloé's leaving?

Nathaniel: Forever?

Marinette: Looks like it.

Alya: Yeah.

(Everyone jumps in the air out of happiness; confetti appears out of thin air and there are fireworks for no reason at all. Everyone, including Mr. Damocles, dances and parties.)

Marinette: Without Chloé around, Paris will be filled with a lot less negative emotion!

Tikki: And less akumatizations.

(Adrien walks up to Marinette from behind.)

Adrien: Hey, what’s going on here? What are we celebrating?

Marinette: Chloé’s gone! She’s moving to New York!

Adrien: Chloé left…? For good?

Marinette: (still excited, not realizing that Adrien is not sharing everyone else’s enthusiasm) Yeah! Isn’t it great?

Adrien: Uh… no. I think it’s terrible! How can you celebrate a thing like that?

There

There's the manipulation. Adrien guilts Marinette for being happy that her tormentor is gone. He guilts her for being relieved to know that her school bully is leaving Paris. Not only did he make Marinette feel guilty for feeling the way that she did. But the episode also deems Marinette as if she's selfish for feeling glad that Chloe is gone. While Adrien completely invalidates Marinette's feelings, and does not take into consideration that Chloe has bullied and made Marinette's life a living hell for years. Adrien knows Chloe has been bullying Marinette for years and instead of letting her feel happy that her bully is gone he guilts her and shames her saying that she shouldn't be celebrating something like that. Not contemplating the fact that Marinette has been bullied, shamed, taunted, and tormented for years. All because Chloe's his childhood friend and she was his only friend. He continues to support Chloe, and guit-trips Marinette for being happy that her life-long bully is finally leaving, because he doesn’t care about how Chloe torments everyone in the class or how she’s literally abusing Sabrina, all he cares about is how her leaving affects him.

In Glaciator Chat Noir imposes a date with Ladybug.

Transcript

Cat Noir: So, uh, Ladybug? What would you say if you and I met up tonight for a little dinner? Rooftop style?

Ladybug: For dinner? As superheroes?

Cat Noir: Well, uh, yeah. That's right. We're only together when we're saving Paris. I mean, wouldn't you actually like to get to know one another?

Ladybug: I... That's so thoughtful of you, but I can't. I have to, uh, I already have plans with some friends.

Bus driver: (steps out of the bus and shakes hands with Cat Noir) Thank you. (shakes Ladybug's hand) Thank you, Ladybug.

Cat Noir: Well, if your plans end early, come and join me.

Ladybug: We'll see.

Cat Noir: I'll be waiting, my lady.

(Ladybug uses her yo-yo and leaves. Cat Noir smiles at her for a moment before he leaves too)

Ladybug tells Chat Noir that she has plans with friends, Chat Noir still insists that she comes if her plans end early. Ladybug never says yes to him nor does she confirm she will show up while he says he'll be waiting.

Alya, Nino, Marinette, and Adrien were planning on having a date together, Adrien lies to his friends and tells them that his father said he couldn't go. Actively upsetting them and ruining their date, because 'Oh! Poor Adrien couldn't make it!. The thing is-

Adrien could have made it.

He himself, chose not to.

He didn't even inform his father about going out with friends.

Adrien never mentions going out with friends to Gabriel. He never tells Nathalie nor the Gorilla anything just so he could prepare a date with Ladybug, who also never confirmed she was going on the date.

[Next transcript is very important to read]

(Adrien sighs before he takes out his phone to text Nino. He then checks the time)

Nathalie: There's no point in waiting for your father, Adrien. He'll be eating in his office.

Adrien: (stands up from his chair, quietly angry) Then what's the point of keeping me here if he's never gonna show up, Nathalie? (walks away to go to his room)

Nathalie: Don't forget to practice your piano before you go to bed.

He doesn't tell Nathalie or Gabriel. He tells Nino that he won't be able to make it because his father wouldn't allow him to, yet Adrien didn't even see Gabriel because he was in his office the entire time.

Scene: Adrien's room.

Plagg: You could've at least grabbed the piece of Camembert on that platter!

Adrien: (tosses a piece of Camembert to Plagg and he catches it) Fuel up, Plagg. (He turns on some piano music from his phone. He then places the phone on top of the real piano) Adrien may not be allowed out of the house, but Cat Noir is!

Adrien's off to his date with Ladybug, which she never agreed that she would come, lying to his friends and telling them that his father wouldn't let him go out with them.

Plagg: You seem in a hurry to get stood up.

Adrien: She didn't say she wasn't coming.

Plagg: But she didn't say she was either!

This is also important to take in mind, it doesn't matter if she didn't say wasn't coming, she also didn't say she was coming like Plagg said. She told him she had plans with her friends.

Scene: Trocadéro. Marinette meets up with her friends

Marinette: Hey, Alya!

Alya: Hey, Marinette! (Both she and Marinette kisses each other's cheeks)

Marinette: Where's Adrien?

Alya: Don't get upset, okay? But Nino just got a text. Adrien's dad isn't letting him go out.

Again, Adrien tells Nino his dad won't let him go out. Lying and upsetting his friends, which automatically makes them feel bad because they're poor friend can't come out with them.

Marinette: Once again...

Nino: Yo, Marinette!

Ivan: What's up, M?

Mylène: How are you, Marinette?

Marinette: I'm fine. Thanks. Hehe. So, do you know where André is today?

Later in the episode, they have patrol

And this is what Chat Noir says to Ladybug

Ladybug: Hello, Kitty. Did the bad guys leave you cold?

Cat Noir: (harsh and enraged) How was your amazing evening with your "friends"?

(Ladybug looks confused at Cat Noir, shocked by her partner's harsh words. But she gasps when she hears Glaciator's voice.)

He gets passive aggressive and sarcastic with her. He's angry because she didn't show up to a date she never agreed to going on.

[Transcript]

Ladybug: Are you mad at me because I didn't show up?

Cat Noir: (furious) What do you think?

Ladybug: I didn't mean to hurt you.

(Glaciator jumps over them and continues walking. Ladybug and Cat Noir take shelter behind a car)

Cat Noir: And I also had a surprise for you, too!

Ladybug: I really am sorry.

Cat Noir: No... I'm the one who's sorry. Maybe another time.

Ladybug feels bad for not showing up. Ladybug shouldn't have to apologize for not showing up. She never agreed to going on the date and Chat Noir knows that. He knows she had plans with her friends and guilts her because apparently she didn't show up to a date she never intended on going on. While he was the one who gave her the cold shoulder the entire time they were fighting off Glaciator and acted like a 5 year old child.

The blatant manipulation

Chat Noir guilts Ladybug because she didn't show up to a date she never agreed that she would go on. Resulting in her feeling bad and apologizing to him as if she said she'll go. She never confirms she'll make it. She tells him she has plans with friends and they'll see. That doesn't equate to yes. Adrien lies to his friends and tells them he won't be able to make it because his father wouldn't let him go out, meanwhile Adrien never tells Gabriel anything about going out with friends.

In Syren

Adrien gets tired of all the secrets Ladybug had to keep from him and threatens to quit. Blackmailing Plagg threatening to quit as a superhero if Plagg doesn't tell him what secret Ladybug's been hiding from him.

[Transcript]

Adrien: (imitating Ladybug) Hey, Cat Noir, do you trust me? (as himself) Sure, Ladybug; do you trust me, too? (as Ladybug) Are you kidding? I will never trust you! Ha ha ha ha! (normally, to Plagg) You must know what Ladybug's hiding from me, Plagg.

Plagg: I'm just a kwami, Adrien, and we kwamis have a right to remain silent.

Adrien: Pity. (gets out his phone) Just when I was about to order you some very tasty cheese. Have you ever sampled La Trappe d'Échourgnac? It says here it tastes like walnuts.

Plagg: (swallows some Camembert) I can't be swayed, sorry.

He bribes Plagg with cheese to get information out of him about Ladybug

Cat Noir: Wait! Where're you going?

Ladybug: (hesitantly) I can't.

Cat Noir: (disappointedly) Say anything. Yeah, I know. But we are a team, aren't we? (turns away from Ladybug) I'm tired of all these secrets.

Ladybug: I'm sorry. It's not exactly easy for me either, trust me. (she leaps away while Cat Noir turns to see her leaving him)

(Cat Noir sits down on the roof to wait for Ladybug to return.)

He himself admits that he knows she can't tell him anything. He knows she's under restrictions and he pulls this.

Cat Noir: This is so dumb! (stands up) Claws in. (detransforms)

Plagg: (groans) What's taking her so long? (Adrien holds up his hands to Plagg, and starts to pull off his ring a little bit) Whoa, easy! W-What are you doing?!

Adrien: (grimly) If you don't tell me what Ladybug is hiding from me, I'm done!

Plagg: You can't do that!

Adrien: (bitterly) Why not? No one'll know if I quit. No one'll care!

Plagg: I will!

He blackmails Plagg, and threatens to let millions of people drown just because he wants to know a secret he isn't worthy of knowing.

[Transcript for Frozer]

In Frozer he gets rejected for the hundredth time

Ladyice: Cat Noir. We need to set up a trap for whoever turned the city into a giant ice rink. (throws yo-yo)

Icecat: (bitterly) My feline instincts prefer to track and observe before I attack. You go your way, I'll go mine.

Ladyice: Please don't tell me you're mad at me about the rose.

Icecat: There may be a certain chill now between us.

Ladyice: I get it, but we should really focus on saving Paris

Icecat: We don't always have to do everything together, after all. It's not like we're a couple. (skates away)

Ladyice: Cat Noir, don't get all pouty on me! (groans and takes off on her yo-yo)

(Ladyice and Icecat separately search for Frozer)

Icecat: (notices Frozer's skate marks on the ice) This way.

Ladyice: I need to set a trap, but what could I use as bait? (while Ladyice thinks, Frozer prepares to sneak up behind her, but Icecat spots him attempting to do so and pulls Ladyice out of harm's way)

Ladyice: Thanks, Kitty.

(Icecat winks)

Once again, he makes her feel guilty for turning him down for the millionth time in a row as if he doesn't know she's in love with someone else. Acting like an asshole the entire time they fight off Frozer.

In Copyat, Chat Noir arrives at a ceremony.

Scene: The Place des Vosges. The ceremony has just ended.

Cat Noir: These statues are amazing. One thing's slightly off though— I'm actually taller than Ladybug.

Théo: Ladybug didn't show up. I just wanted to express my adoration for her. Let her know that everything I had went into her statue. I'm sure if she took a little time to get to know me, she would see how much we have in common. Our devotion to the things we love.

Cat Noir: Hey, don't mean to burst your bubble, but you know, Ladybug and me, we're a thing, you know?

Théo: Really?

Cat Noir: Yeah, we're like this. (crosses his fingers)

Théo: (growls; walks away angrily) What does Ladybug see in him?

He lies to Theo about the relationship he has with Ladybug leaving Theo angry causing him to become akumatized.

Cat Noir: Better help the fellow out. His crush just got crushed. (under his breath, as he leaves) That makes two of us.

Théo: Ugh... What am I doing here? Ladybug?

Ladybug: I'm sorry I couldn't make it this morning, Théo.

Théo: Can you autograph it for me?

Ladybug: Of course I can! You've got some real artistry here. You've really captured my essence.

Théo: Thank you, Ladybug. And don't worry. I know about you and Cat Noir. It's okay.

Ladybug: Huh?

Ladybug is left to apologize to Theo and deal with the rest. Theo tells her not to worry, he knows about her and Chat Noir to which she reacts with utter confusion. Chat Noir lied to Theo, causing his akumatization not even facing consequences at the end nor apologizing to Theo, instead Marinette does all the work while being left confused.

Adrien is a lying, manipulative, and conniving person. He has manipulated his friends, Plagg, and Marinette. This is not okay

And the writers portray it to be while making Marinette look bad

[kawaiichibiart]

Okay, so. Kuro Neko.

All in all, I think it was a good episode.

We see what would happen Chat Noir quit. How it affects both Adrien and Marinette respectively.

And we see how Ladybug works with a "new" cat, much like how we saw how Chat Noir worked with a new ladybug in Hack San.

I actually like that we see how they dealt with it.

Adrien was obviously depressed and I think it goes beyond his feelings for Ladybug. At this point, Chat Noir became a part of his life and it got to a point where being Chat Noir no longer brought him the same feelings it did before. He isn't sure as to who he is. If he's the "real" Chat Noir. And while things were resolved in the end, while Plagg made it clear he is both Adrien and Chat Noir, neither side being his real true self, I don't think everything has been fixed. I'm in the high belief that this is a temporary thing but it's also a big step in the right direction for Adrien.

Marinette, on the other hand, looked like she didn't get any sleep at all. As I said, I took more notice to the dark circles under her eyes than her hair. She could have gotten plenty of sleep and still gotten her hair like that. But the circles under eyes very much say that she got little to no sleep at all.

And honestly? I think the main reason she didn't get to sleep was because she was blaming herself for a long time. Chat Noir told her to come collect his miraculous and left it on a roof for her to find. And since she didn't know who he was and didn't want to know, he left. But it left her upset, frustrated and honestly, feeling guilty. You can tell with her facial expressions and how she's behaving. This wasn't like back in New York. There wasn't someone who could track down the real Chat Noir, share a message about how she needs him, and bring him back. She's on her own. And that likely added onto her stress. So Plagg being the one to choose a "new" holder for the cat miraculous makes sense. She doesn't have to pick. She doesn't have to be the one to make this big decision. And she isn't risking finding out the new cat's secret id.

The biggest problem with these two is communication and not being able to compromise. Both of them will take the blame for things out of their control. So, I'd say I hate to say this, but I don't, I do not believe things have gotten even remotely better. Much like with the end of Hack San, I don't think Ladybug's words to Chat Noir will hold up. There's just too much to be fixed before they can actually mean anything other than just being nice words.

And while I doubt it, I genuinely hope Adrien didn't decide to get back the discarded pics of Ladybug on his phone. I seriously doubt they would make it so he permanently deleted them, but I hope he did as a way to counter what happened at the end Glaciator 2.0.

[bluesummers57]

Miraculous Ladybug Spoilers: Ephemeral and Gabriel Agreste!

Okay I really want to talk about the Sentimonster Adrien Theory after this episode. I've seen people try to comfort themselves in the idea that the ring motion Gabriel keeps making is just him being reminded of Emily, especially when he's guilty, because we saw Felix stealing the ring who could possibly hold the amok from Gabriel last season. But the thing is, he could've stole it back from Felix, the ring he has could actually be the right one, both could hold the amok.... But I think he definitely got the ring back on 'Gabriel Agreste', since Felix is in the trailer.

Anyway, there is absolutely nothing to dismiss this theory. I know some people don't mind Adrien being a sentimonster since technically a sentimonster can still be a person, a human being with emotions and thoughts and feelings and everything, and to be fair I get why it wouldn't matter either way, he's still Adrien. Nothing would change when it comes to that, really, he's still the same person. Other than the fact that he is being forced to do things, obviously, which is extremely sad and my goodness I wish it wasn't true. But also the idea that Gabriel could just snap his fingers and Adrien would cease from existence is heavy as heck. I don't think he would ever do that tho, Emily would never forgive him, but just the possibility makes me want to scream into a pillow out of frustration.

I feel like that was always my main issue with the Adrien Sentimonster theory, and of course before knowing everything we know about sentimonsters, I also thought it was a long shot and that being a sentimonster meant not existing really, but now we know it's not true. We know it's not how it works, and there is nothing to deny this theory. Absolutely nothing. And if it weren't for the angst of it all, I probably wouldn't mind. But it is extremely sad and Adrien doesn't deserve it one bit. I have this really strong headcanon too that Emily was an extremely kind and good person and just one of those people who couldn't stand letting someone feel hurt, and was very protective of Adrien. I imagine she would never, ever, take advantage of him and would always let him have the freedom of his own choices. Kind of like Ella's mom in Ella Enchanted? So I think she would be extremely disappointed in Gabriel and would never forgive him.

Of course, there is always the possibility that this was all arranged, that this was the plan all along between the two of them, maybe she agreed to everything before dying. But even still, I don't think she would agree with the way Gabriel has been treating his son. When Adrien said that his mother was the only one who could make him really laugh, it made sense to me that she loved him dearly and would do anything in her power to keep him happy. It made sense to me that she was an amazing person, just like Adrien, and Gabriel just lost himself when he lost her, went mad or something.

The Evil Emily theory would definitely break my heart, but nothing comes close to Sentimonster Adrien, and now we know it's probably true. If anyone had any doubts, this episode cleared things up. It was way too obvious. That terrifies me. Adrien's whole thing about wanting to please everyone, being the perfect son, is something completely out of his control. Feeling traped, having his nightmare be a literal cage, that's something he can't get away from. This episode proved that. We all know he would do anything for Ladybug and would never betray her, and we could tell he was going to fight the akuma, but as soon as Gabriel touched the ring, he gave up. He had zero control. And isn't that one of the reasons of Adrien's suffering? Not being able to do what he wants. And now we know it's not just about being a famous model and a famous fashion designer's son, honouring his mother - although his mind probably makes him think that, since that's what Gabriel says -, he has absolutely no choice on the matter. And that gives his relationship with Ladybug, being Chat Noir, his relationship with Plagg, his friendships (even his strong friendship with Chloe), a whole new intensity. It's all that he has. It's still kind of like his own freedom, just like it was before, but on a whole different perspective. This is Sad

does anyone feel like crying

[mcheang]

An ML Fic idea I had based on this quote I read: "In society, part of the point of the justice system is to dole out some level of generally agreed upon punishment so that individuals will not feel the need to do it themselves. If a supervillain is too powerful for the state to handle, then the vigilantism prohibition doesn't apply to them either. Someone who breaks the law and is unable to be handled by the law is by definition an outlaw. Anyone may do whatever they want to an outlaw." (1/2)

In danger

I can’t really think of a proper story for this. This post is just my rambling after reading your prompt.

The mayor told them himself.

It was a shock, being told they need not hold back. That what mattered was ending Hawkmoth’s reign of terror, not his surrender.

Especially considering how little contact the heroes have had.

The heroes discussed this in private. Master Fu himself admits he does not like the idea of killing Hawkmoth, but he knows too much. He could expose Nooroo’s true name and the poor butterfly kwami would know no true peace.

Ladybug doesn’t feel right about this, but she sees the effects Hawkmoth’s reign has left on Paris. Little children are told not to have a tantrum. Repeat akumas are mocked for their uncontrolled villainy. Conceal, don’t feel. Does no one remember Elsa?

But murder...

Tikki: it’s not like humans have never killed others for the cause of good.

Marinette: i don’t think I can do it.

Tikki: um, Marinette, you’re not the one wielding destruction. You’re not the one who has to choose whether to kill Hawkmoth or not. I mean, I guess my lucky charms could be used for a murder plot, but that’s not really my forte

Marinette:...

Adrien: what do I do?

Plagg: kill the dude; duh

Adrien: how can you talk about this so casually? This is another man’s life!

Plagg burped. “Need i remind you that I am ancient? I have lived in eras where death was the norm for criminal punishment. Do you honestly think I haven’t committed mass murder before? I caused Atlantis’ fall and the extinction of dinosaurs.”

Adrien: don’t you feel guilty?

Plagg: not really. Species come and go. Tikki makes them. I end them. That’s my role as her other half. Sometimes I end then earlier than scheduled.

Adrien: i don’t think I can do this.

Plagg: shall I do the deed? If you ever see Hawkmoth, detransform. I’ll cataclysm him and Ladybug can clean up the accompanying chaos.

(For the record if this ever happened, I see Plagg cataclysming Hawkmoth from below his feet. There will be a resulting shockwave; but Hawkmoth would have spontaneously combusted. It is a gruesome scene. However once the cure is cast, everything is fixed but Gabriel Agreste’s restored body is still lifeless. Chat is destroyed by the truth. Plagg would know he can’t stay with Adrien anymore, not after this. Besides, once the miraculous are recovered, there is no point anyway.)

[princess-of-the-corner]

I don't know why, but I can't get the idea of "Felix is a Sentimonster, but Adrien Isn't, or isn't fully" out of my head.

Honestly even though I still have mixed feelings on it because the level of how real Sentimonsters are is still a problem for me, I do like this better!

Not just because Felix being a Sentimonster would have less plotholes than Adrien! Though it still might have some since this would likely mean Amelie knows about the Peacock Miraculous and should realize Gabriel is Hawkmoth.

I mean. I guess there's a chance Amelie doesn't know, but I can only think of two scenarios:

1.) Amelie and her husband are having trouble getting pregnant, and Emilie feels guilty because she is currently pregnant. When Adrien's born, she makes a sentimonster clone of Adrien and goes 'Hey sis I had twins, want one?"

2.) Gabriel and Emilie are awful babysitters and Felix had to be..... replaced.

That got dark as fuck but I know that. I was going for more dark comedy.

Anyway!

Regardless, Felix is a character who, while we don't know as well as Adrien, we still have some investment in. It'd be interesting if he turns out to be a Sentimonster.

But the biggest interesting thing would be highlighting it against Adrien's situation. Senti!Felix, figuring every way possible to go against obeying, vs. Adrien, who is entirely Human but still restricted by his father. A show, to Adrien, that you can break free of whatever is holding you back. Be it Magic or abuse.

[dishwater-blondie]

Why do you suppose Gabriel is so cold to Adrien? It seems like he doesn't care much about Adrien outside of his relation to Emilie. Given how bad things are between them it's hard to imagine how their relationship can be healed in a satisfying way

I do have a lot of thoughts on this and they are grounded mostly in pure speculation. I admit the show itself seems to suggest that the majority of the affection Gabriel holds for Adrien is related through Emilie, or at least the majority of affection that isn’t implicit paternal fondness (if that even matters with someone as emotionally flaccid as Gabriel). And honestly, this kinda sucks. For people to do try to enjoy Gabriel’s character like myself, his relationship with Adrien as presented does serve as one especially shitty detail in what is already quite the shitshow. But what really bothers me is that there is immense potential for some compellingly intricate family dynamics in the Agreste household that is oversimplified by the idea that Adrien is a reminder of Emilie to his father and nothing more. Here’s an explanation of what I believe should be the situation:

I’ve already offered plenty of analysis on why I think Emilie should be a villain and the evidence we have suggesting this might be the case, so I’ll spare you all of that right now. What I’ve talked much less about is how Emilie herself could have thrown a wrench in the relationship between father and son. From what we’ve heard about her so far, we are to understand that Emilie was always the warm and affectionate parent, while Gabriel, given his rigidity and general coldness, was likely the disciplinarian. However, since it’s been theorized at length that Emilie must have been majorly responsible for Adrien’s isolation growing up (at least equally to her husband), one conclusion that I have drawn is that Emilie could have been the one making these rules, tasking Gabriel with enforcing them. That’s not to say Gabriel didn’t also believe in these rules. I’m sure he did. But it’s beyond obvious that Gabriel has an unhealthy devotion to his wife, so who is to say Emilie didn’t manage to convince Gabriel of a structured lifestyle he wouldn’t have otherwise favored? It’s possible (especially when you consider based on Audrey’s dialogue that Gabriel was probably the lower class of the two who had to work and marry his way into wealth).

But expanding on this, we also have ample evidence that Emilie liked being idolized in her own house. Why else would there be giant golden portraits, statues, and a beautiful multi-story repository/garden - at least two of which had to have been prepared before she had fallen asleep? Might we speculate, then, that Emilie liked to be the center of attention? That she reveled in this overzealous dedication Gabriel exhibits towards her? And if she likes it from Gabriel, why wouldn’t she like it from her son, who doesn’t seem to register that she had to have played a considerable role in keeping him sheltered from the world? Adrien’s isolation is blamed on Gabriel even though he has more friends and freedom now than he’s had throughout the rest of his life. Yet, Emilie is still thought of as the better parent.

To a great extent, of course, she was. At least in terms of giving her son the time of day and being emotionally available to him. But what if she closed Gabriel off from this role? What if she made him play bad cop, enforce the rules she liked while she got to swoop in with her love and comfort and ignore that she was just as responsible for the way things were? What if she facilitated these parenting roles, ensuring she was always painted in a good light and never blamed for her son’s hardship?

[I mean, look at Amelie, who blamed Felix’s bad behavior on the fact that his father was no longer around to keep him out of trouble. She’s not responsible. His dad was the disciplinarian. Not her. She can’t control her son (even though she very much is)].

Now Emilie is gone and Gabriel doesn’t know how to step into the role she’d played all their son’s life. He seems so uncomfortable with Adrien showing him any kind of affection. Like it’s new to him. Like he doesn’t know how to be what Emilie had once been. Like he even feels guilty for filling that space.

Remember when Gabriel expressed that all he has left of Emilie is the grimoire and Adrien? Well, he is obsessed with that grimoire (or what it represents, the miraculous endeavor as a whole). But he keeps Adrien at a distance. If memory is all Adrien provided for him, wouldn’t he taking advantage of that more? If he truly values Adrien only as something Emilie left behind, I feel like they’d have a different relationship. Still a very, very unhealthy one. But different. “Closer” feels like the wrong word even though I do mean “less distant”. 

But no. Adrien seems almost emotionally off limits to Gabriel. He’s not brushing Adrien off because he’s too painful of a reminder - Gabriel literally never stops reminding himself of Emilie. Gabriel brushes Adrien off because he doesn’t know how to be something other than what he’s always been - the iron fist. The bad cop. The disciplinarian. Being as loving and warm as Emilie used to be would not only force him to confront the fact that they don’t need Emilie anymore, but it would also betray the hard and fast structure of their family functions, the structure Emilie implemented to secure her place in the emotional center of her husband and son’s worlds. 

As for how to heal their relationship, I talked a little bit about this in my post about Gabriel’s redemption, but I want to add that I do think it’s imperative these dynamics are exposed and both Agrestes realize how their relationship has been manipulated and that they properly communicate about it. 

Thank you for this ask! This was some fun analysis. 

[lady-charinette]

Adrien Agreste =/= Sociopath - About Adrien Salt

I've seen a lot of posts going around about Adrien being a sociopath or the other (harasser, abuser...etc.)

What I find most of those posts lacking is looking at the big picture, or just zeroing in on certain moments of the show and even disregarding the context of those selected moments to unfairly rule judgement on a child (in canon) no less.

Definition of sociopath: A sociopath is a term used to describe someone who has antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). People with ASPD can’t understand others’ feelings. They’ll often break rules or make impulsive decisions without feeling guilty for the harm they cause.

People with ASPD may also use “mind games” to control friends, family members, co-workers, and even strangers. They may also be perceived as charismatic or charming.

We have to analyze the context and the surroundings Adrien is in.

Family, social life, relationships (platonic and romantic), personality, age, environment...etc.

Family:

We know Adrien has a father who is controlling, preferring to micro-manage every aspect of his son's life to continue to have a semblance of control at all times. We assume (heavily implied in the show), that his mother was kind, warm and emotional (whether that emotional is the "out-there" kind her twin sister has, it remains to be seen.)

According to a snippet from "Simon Says", Adrien also has "Quite a temper, you remind me of someone" according to Gabriel's own words, we can assume the "someone" is Emilie, Gabriel says this when Chat Noir refused to follow his orders and told him to basically "get off his high horse". In this context, anyone who defies Gabriel in such a way would either be branded as "disobedient" or to "have quite a temper".

According to Adrien himself in "Adrien's Double Life" (from Miraculous Secrets) he describes being Chat Noir as "...I can finally do whatever I want to do, say whatever comes to mind." He doesnt feel as restricted and controlled since that's the one aspect of his life his father has no knowledge of.

Social life:

Adrien has had no or very little interaction with peers.

Evidence: Chloe being his childhood friend. Felix commenting on Chloe's appearance in the video she sent for Adrien's birthday, saying "Chloe. Just as annoying as usual." suggests he knows her from before, maybe even as early on as their childhood days.

This makes Felix and Chloe the only kids, of spoiled and rich background, with whom Adrien interacted.

Felix is shown to be good at manipulating people and keeping up appearances (potentially connected to insecurities within the family? Not confirmed), Chloe is openly mean and bullies others (with underlying insecurities also connected to her parents).

The only positive adult (if Gorilla isn't as involved and Nathalie had been solely Gabriel's secretary and not Adrien's caretaker since there was Emilie) in Adrien's life would be his mother, who also fell into a coma during Adrien's formative years (and still during a time where he's figuring himself and his emotions out: puberty), leaving him with his father.

Moving on, even if the writer's sometimes may not always successfully show Adrien being awkward in social interactions, it doesnt mean they dont exist.

This interaction between him and Marinette, asking for her autograph, very formal in his question, awkward in posture:

He's picked up on some speech patterns from his frequent interactions with Nino ("dude", "Hey man." "Totally dude.") showing he's, like many people, mimicking his friend's behavior and speech to grow more favorably in their eyes.

The same pattern can be observed with Gabriel and Adrien: Adrien adopts his father's formal speech whenever talking to him, since that appeases him.

Adrien has had very limited friendly interactions with his peers, romantic interactions are basically non-existent. The scenes where Adrien is being chased by his fans, who obsessively adore him, cant be linked to Adrien experiencing healthy romantic contact (Lila doesn't count since she only uses Adrien to further her goals). Marinette doesn't count since Adrien's isn't even aware of her romantic feelings for him. (Again, difficulties picking up social cues due to only ever being homeschooled > limited social contact with peers)

So no, in my humble opinion, Adrien sometimes doesn't understand other people's feelings not because he's a sociopath, but because he's an awkward kid with very little experience about making friends and having healthy relationships with them.

Relationships:

Let's be direct here: Gabriel is an abusive as*hole.

If the writer's wanted to show Gabriel struggling or having remorse for his actions being Hawkmoth and putting his son through danger, well... They blew it. "Gorizilla" was a 5 second reaction of Hawkmoth showing concern after letting Adrien fall from a skyscraper. Applause. After that? Not much.

Nathalie: Adrien likes, she takes care of him, his schedule, was the one to convince Gabriel to let him attend public school. There are moments in the show where she softens up towards Adrien, but always carries that air of professionalism on her to (possibly, assumption) not grow too close. Gorilla is...Gorilla, but at least the man tries with his nonverbal support and affectionate grunts. Lol.

Gabriel: He loves his father. It's his parent, after all. However, Adrien's reactions to him are vastly different than to how he reacts when thinking of his mother. He shows signs of fear (tensing up, growing obedient...etc.), he excuses his father's excessive controlling tendencies to just be "he's just worried about me", "that's the way he always was", "father cares and protects me". Adrien shows to be frequently disappointed with Gabriel, one of the first scenes being that Gabriel couldn't attend parent's day at school, Adrien was talking on the phone alone in the school hallway. He was genuinely surprised by the blue scarf his father gifted him (not knowing it was Marinette), since all he used to get were pens (again, not even from Gabriel, but Nathalie). This is my assumption but: Adrien has previously begged his father to go outside more or attend public school, but this time it worked only because Nathalie managed to convince him.

Friends from school: Nino is his best friend, Adrien seems to be good friends with Alya too, basically everyone in class, with varying degrees of closeness. Chloe is a childhood friend whom Adrien is fond of but also grows exasperated with and corrects her behavior if she's too harsh.

Marinette: likes and respects her, but can't read her well or at least when he thinks he's got her figured out, she claims the opposite. Marinette has been sending mixed signals, on one hand even making Adrien believe (and fear) they weren't friends. "Chat Blanc" contrary to popular belief, showed that Adrien is delighted at the prospect of Marinette being Ladybug (he'd severe doubts when Chloe or anyone else was brought up as a possible option).

Kagami: likes her, respects her, admires her fencing skills, learned to have fun hanging out with her and playing as kids usually do since she also has a controlling parent and they both know some ways/tricks around their boundaries to sneak off and meet their friends. Adrien and Kagami have similarities in that respect, Gabriel pushing Adrien to be a model, Mrs. Tsurugi pushing Kagami to be a master fencer.

Lila: At first defended her, was friendly towards her since she was a new student from overseas he sympathized because surely it would be lonely? The new girl would need a friend who supported her through all this things that were new for him too. However, as soon as he caught wind of Lila's schemes, he changes his tune. He feels uncomfortable around her overstepping his boundaries, expresses anger when Lila accused Marinette of crimes she didn't commit and even makes a deal with her to not bother Marinette again (but use him instead, doing photoshoots together...etc.) to keep her safe.

Age:

A 14-15 year old, having lost his mother, the only positive, healthy relationship in his life. Surrounded by a controlling father, not much free time, many extracurricular activities and being a superhero alongside Ladybug.

Some of the signs of being a sociopath include: Breaking rules and being impulsive.... Didn't Ladybug do those too?

Breaking the rules: (since LB and Marinette are the same) stealing phones, sneaking into places where she shouldn't, using the miraculous for personal gain (latest example: getting Kagami away from Adrien), giving Adrien the snake miraculous due to personal preference instead of drawing logical conclusions. Sneaked into the Agreste mansion.

Impulsiveness: Marinette's daily fantasies (sharing a future life with Adrien and their hamster-who-must-not-be-named), when Lila's "precious family heirloom necklace" was "stolen", Marinette was quick to include her classmates in the list of potential perpetrators for it (without ill intent, but still..)

You know who the real potential sociopath in the show is?

Gabriel

Some of you might include Lila too (since she fits all the criteria for being a sociopath), but the key difference is: Lila is still just a kid.

We don't know much about her family life. Just that her mother is busy with work, we don't know where her father is, who her friends were/if she even had them. She might be lying and manipulating people to follow her own agenda, but she thrives in attention, when people notice and praise her. In some aspects, that could've been Adrien. With one neglectful parent, a missing parent, no friends (prior to going to school)...etc. There is also a lot we don't know about her.

[flightfoot]

I remembered seeing an interview with Mr Winny and in that interview he described Luka as "wise". But is it really wise to lie to Ladybug about knowing her and Chat Noir's identity? And even agreed to her plan to manipulate Chat Noir to confess his identity instead of confessing the truth. 🤔

I wonder if this will be like a reverse situation with the ladynoir and what make her realised how wrong it is to keep a secret from her partner, even from the information he should know, now that Ladybug experienced it herself. 🤔🤔

To be fair as far as the Ephemeral plan went, Luka DID bring up that it would be simpler and safer for him to just ask Chat Noir about his secret identity himself, instead of Ladybug manipulating and lying to him to get it. I'm not exactly thrilled that he still went along with Ladybug's plan, but that's on Ladybug more than it's on him. If he'd refused, she'd probably have just given the snake to someone else so they could fill his role in the plan instead.

...Okay now I'm imagining what would've happened if Luka had refused to go along with it and she'd asked Adrien to help out as Aspik in this plan. That uh. That would be a trainwreck. Realistically speaking, I'm not even sure how Adrien would respond to that.

 I still don't understand WHY Luka lied to Marinette about not knowing hers or Chat’s secret identities, and not chiming in during Ephemeral when him knowing Chat’s identity was relevant. That's something I'm really concerned with, character-wise: being able to get into the character's head and understand with their thought process, at least for the people in the story I'm supposed to sympathize with. I care about that more than just the ethical or safety concerns of him knowing their identities: not like his memory can be erased anyway, and while it’s good to know who else knows your identity, I don’t think it would change what Ladybug or Chat Noir would do much.

And Luka's... I dunno. I can come up with stuff about him not wanting to freak Marinette out in Wishmaker, but then with Ephemeral and him needing to learn Chat's identity actually being relevant to the plot, not so much. I'd think maybe he'd just be hiding that he already knew it because he knew how pissed off Ladybug would be if she found out he knew and lied about it, the animation would show him looking guilty and anxious, but that doesn't happen. There's nothing in either the voice acting or the animation to hint that he feels guilty or anxious about hiding such a huge, relevant secret so... yeah. I dunno what's intended there.

It's possible that finding out Luka's been hiding that info from her might cause Ladybug to rethink how she's been keeping Chat out of the loop and hiding things from him, but I doubt it. I think it'd need to be a more analogous situation for her to get it.