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demigod-of-the-agni · 3 months

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Spider-Man India, but... where from India?

A SUPER long post featuring talks of: cultural identity, characterisation, the caste system, and what makes Spider-Man Spider-Man.

I’m prefacing this by saying that I am a second-generation immigrant. I was born in Australia, but my cultural background is from South India. My experiences with what it means to be “Indian” is going to be very different from the experiences of those who are born and brought up in India.

If you, reader, want to add anything, please reblog and add your thoughts. This is meant to be a post open for discussion — the more interaction we get, the better we become aware of these nuances.

So I made this poll asking folks to pick a region of India where I would draw Pavitr Prabhakar in their cultural wear. This idea had been on my mind for a long while now, as I had been inspired by Annie Hazarika’s Northeastern Spidey artwork in the wake of ATSV’s release, but never got the time to actually do it until now. I wanted to get a little interactive and made the poll so I could have people choose which of the different regions — North, Northeast, Central, East, West, South — to do first.

The outcome was not what I expected. As you can see, out of 83 votes:

THE RESULTS

South India takes up almost half of all votes (44.6%), followed by Northeast and Central (both 14.5%) and then East (13.3%). In all my life growing up, support towards or even just the awareness of South India was pretty low. Despite this being a very contained poll, why would nearly half of all voters pick South India in favour of other popular choices like Central or North India?

Then I thought about the layout of the poll: Title, Options, Context.

Title: "Tell us who you want to see…"

Options: North, Northeast, Central, East, West, South

Context: I want to make art of the boy again

At first I thought: ah geez. this is my fault. I didn't make the poll clear enough. do they think I want them to figure out where Pavitr came from? That's not what I wanted, maybe I should have added the context before the options.

Then I thought: ah geez. is it my fault for people not reading the entire damn thing before clicking a button? That's pretty stupid.

But regardless, the thought did prompt a line of thinking I know many of us desi folk have been considering since Spider-Man India was first conceived — or, at least, since the announcement that he was going to appear in ATSV. Hell, even I thought of it:

Where did Spider-Man India come from?

FROM A CULTURALLY DIVERSE INDIA

As we know, India is so culturally diverse, and no doubt ATSV creators had to take that into account. Because the ORIGINAL Spider-Man India came from Mumbai — most likely because Mumbai and Manhattan both started with the same letter.

But going beyond that, it’s also because Mumbai is one of the most recognisable cities in India - it’s also known as Bombay. It’s where Bollywood films are shot. It’s where superstar Hindi actors and actresses show up. Mumbai is synonymous with India in that regard, because the easiest way Western countries can interact with Indian culture is through BOLLYWOOD, through HINDI FILMS, through MUMBAI. Suddenly, India is Mumbai, India is a Hindi-only country, India is just this isolated thing we see through an infinitely narrow lens.

We’ve gotten a little better in recent years, but boy I will tell you how uncomfortable I’ve gotten when people (yes, even desi people) come up to me and tell me, Oh, you’re Indian right? Can you speak Hindi? Why don’t you speak Hindi? You’re not Indian if you don’t speak Hindi, that’s India’s national language!

I have been — still am — so afraid of telling people that I don’t speak Hindi, that I’m Tamil, that I don’t care that Hindi is India’s “national” language (it’s an administrative language, Kavin, get your fucking facts right). It’s weird, it’s isolating, and it has made me feel like I wasn’t “Indian” enough to be accepted into the group of “Indian” people.

So I am thankful that ATSV went out of their way to integrate as much variety of Indian culture into the Mumbattan sequence. Maybe that way, the younger generation of desi folk won’t feel so isolated, and that younger Western people will be more open to learning about all these cultural differences within such a vast country.

BUT WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH SPIDER-MAN INDIA?

Everything, actually. There’s a thing called supremacy. You might have heard of it. We all engaged with it at some point, and if you are Indian, no matter where you live, it is inescapable.

It happens the moment you are born — who your family is, where you are born, the language you speak, the colour of your skin; these will be bound to you for life, and it is nigh impossible to break down the stereotypes associated with them.

Certain ethnic groups will be more favourable than others (Centrals, and thus their cultures, will always be favoured over than Souths, as an example) and the same can be said for social groups (Brahmins are more likely to secure influential roles in politics or other areas like priesthood, while the lowers castes, especially Dalits, aren’t even given the decency of respect). Don’t even get me started on colourism, where obviously those of fairer skin will win the lottery while those of darker skin aren’t given the time of day. It’s even worse when morality ties into it — “lighter skinned Indians, like Brahmins, embody good qualities like justice and wisdom”, “dark skinned Indians are cunning and poor, they are untrustworthy”. It’s fucking nuts.

This means, of course, you have a billion people trying to make themselves heard in a system that tries to crush everyone who is not privileged. It only makes sense that people want to elevate themselves and break free from a society that refuses to acknowledge them. These frustrations manifest outwardly, like in protests, but other times — most times — it goes unheard, quietly shaping your way of life, your way of thinking. It becomes a fundamental part of you, and it can go unacknowledged for generations.

So when you have a character like Pavitr Prabhakar enter the scene, people immediately latch onto him and start asking questions many Western audiences don’t even consider. Who is he? What food does he eat? What does he do on Fridays? What’s his family like, his community? All these questions pop up, because, amidst all this turmoil going on in the background, you want a mainstream popular character to be like you, who knows your way of life so intimately, that he may as well be a part of your community.

BUT THAT'S THE THING — HE'S FICTIONAL

I am guilty of this. In fact, I’ve flaunted in numerous posts how I think he’s the perfect Tamil boy, how he dances bharatanatyam, how he does all these Tamil things that no one will understand except myself. All these niche things that only I, and maybe a few others, will understand.

I’ve seen other people do it, too. I’ve seen people geek out over his dark brown skin, his kalari dhoti, how he fights so effortlessly in the kalaripayattu martial arts style. I’ve seen people write him as Malayali, as Hindi, as every kind of Indian person imaginable.

I’ve also seen him be written where he’s subjected to typical Indian and broader Asian stereotypes. You know the ones I’m so fond of calling out. The thing is, I’ve seen so much of Pavitr being presented in so many different ways, and I worry how the rest of the desi folk will take it.

You finally have a character who could be you, but now he’s someone else’s plaything. Your entire life is shaped by what you can and can’t do simply because you were born to an Indian family, and here’s the one person who could represent you now at the mercy of someone else’s whims. He’s off living a life that is so distant from yours, you can hardly recognise him.

It shouldn’t hurt as much as it does, yeah? But, again, you’re looking at it from that infinitely narrow lens Westerners use to look at India from Bollywood.

AND PAVITR PRABHAKAR DOESN'T LIVE IN INDIA

He lives in Mumbattan. He lives in a made-up, fictional world that doesn’t follow the way of life of our world. He lives in a city where Mumbai and Manhattan got fucking squashed together. There are so many memes about colonialism right there. Mumbattan isn’t real! Spider-Man India isn’t real!! He’s just a dude!! The logic of our world doesn’t apply to him!!!

“But his surname originates from ______” okay but does that matter?

“But he’s wearing a kalari dhoti so surely he’s ______” okay but does that matter?

“But his skin colour is darker so he must be ______” okay but does that matter?

“But he lives in Mumbai so he must be ______” okay but does that matter?

I sound insensitive and brash and annoying and it looks like I’m yapping just for the sake of riling you up, so direct that little burst of anger you got there at me, and keep reading.

Listen. I’m going to ask you a question that I’ve asked myself a million times over. I want you to answer honestly. I want you to ask this question to yourself and answer honestly:

Are you trying to convince me on who Pavitr Prabhakar should be?

... but why shouldn't i?

I’ll tell you this again — I did the same thing. You’re not at fault for this, but I want you to just...have a little think over. Just a little moment of self-reflection, to think about why you are so intent on boxing this guy.

It took me a while to reorganise my thinking and how to best approach a character like Pavitr, so I will give you all the time you need as well as a little springboard to focus your thoughts on.

SPIDER-MAN (INDIA) IS JUST A MASK

“What I like about the costume is that anybody reading Spider-Man in any part of the world can imagine that they themselves are under the costume. And that’s a good thing.”

Stan Lee said that. Remember how he was so intent on making sure that everybody got the idea that Spider-Man as an entity is fundamentally broken without Peter Parker there to put on the suit and save the day? That ultimately it was the person beneath the mask, no matter who they were, that mattered most?

Spider-Man India is no less different. You can argue with me that Peter Parker!Spidey is supposed to represent working class struggles in the face of leering corporate entities who endanger the regular folk like us, and so Pavitr Prabhakar should also function the same way. Pavitr should also be a working class guy of this specific social standing fighting people of this other social standing.

But that takes away the authenticity of Spider-Man India. Looking at him through the Peter Parker lens forces you to look at him through the Western lens, and it significantly lessens what you can do with the character — suddenly, it’s a fight to be heard, to be seen, to be recognised. It’s yelling over each other that Pavitr Prabhakar is this ethnicity, is that caste, this or that, this or that, this or that.

There’s a reason why he’s called Spider-Man India, infuriatingly vague as it is. And that’s the point — the vagueness of his identity fulfils Lee’s purpose for a character that could theoretically be embodied by anyone. If he had been called “Spider-Man Mumbai”, you cut out a majority of the population (and in capitalist terms, you cut out a good chunk of the market).

And in the case of Spider-Man India? Whew — you’ve got about a billion people imagining a billion different versions of him.

Whoever you are, whatever you see in Pavitr, that is what is personal to you, and there is nothing wrong with that, and I will not fault you for it. I will not fault you for saying Pavitr is from Central due to the origins of his last name. I also will not fault you for saying Pavitr is from South due to him practising kalaripayattu. I also will not fault you for saying he is not Hindu. I also will not fault you for saying he is a particular ethnicity without any proof.

What I will fault you for is trying to convince me and the others around you that Pavitr Prabhakar should be this particular ethnicity/have this cultural background because of some specific reason. I literally don’t care and it is fundamentally going against his character, going against the “anyone can wear the mask” sentiment of Spider-Man. By doing this, you are strengthening the walls that first divided us. You’re feeding the stratification and segmentation of our cultures — something that is actually not present in the fictional world of Mumbattan.

Like I said before: Mumbattan isn’t real, so the divides between ethnicities and cultural backgrounds are practically nonexistent. The best thing is that it is visually there for all to see. My favourite piece of evidence is this:

It’s a marquee for a cinema in the Mumbattan sequence, in the “Quick tour: this is where the traffic is” section. It has four titles; the first two are written in Hindi. The third title is written in Bengali*, and the fourth title is written in Tamil. You go to Mumbai and you won’t see a single shred of Bengali nor Tamil there, much less any other language that's not common in Maharashtra (Western India). Seeing this for the first time, you know what went through my head?

Wow, the numerous cultures of India are so intermingled here in Mumbattan! Everyone and everything is welcome!

I was happy, not just because of Tamil representation, but because of the fact that the plethora of Indian cultures are showcased coexisting in such a short sequence. This is India embracing all the little parts that make up its grander identity. This scene literally opened my eyes seeing such beauty in all the diverse cultures thriving together. In a place where language and cultural backgrounds blend so easily, each one complementing one another.

It is so easy to believe that, from this colourful palette of a setting, Pavitr Prabhakar truly is Spider-Man India, no matter where he comes from.

It’s easy to believe that Pavitr can come from any part of India, and I won’t call you out if the origin you have for him is different from the origin I have. You don’t need to stake out territory and stand your ground — you’re entitled to that opinion, and I respect it. In fact, I encourage it!!!

Because there’s only so much you can show in a ten minute segment of a film about a country that has such a vast history and even greater number of cultures. I want to see all of it — I want him to be a Malayali boy, a Hindi boy, a Bengali boy, a Telugu boy, an Urdu boy, whatever!! I want you to write him or draw him immersed in your culture, so that I can see the beauty of your background, the wonderful little things that make your culture unique and different from mine!

And, as many friends have said, it’s so common for Indian folks to be migrating around within our own country. A person with a Maharashtrian surname might end up living in Punjab, and no one really minds that. I’m actually from Karnataka, my family speaks Kannada, but somewhere down the line my ancestors moved to Tamil Nadu and settled down and lived very fulfilling lives. So I don’t actually have the “pure Tamil” upbringing, contrary to popular belief; I’ve gotten a mix of both Kannada and Tamil lifestyles, and it’s made my life that much richer.

So it’s common for people to “not” look like their surname, if that’s what you’re really afraid about. In fact, it just adds to that layer of nuance, that even despite these rigid identities between ethnicities we as Indian people still intermingle with one another, bringing slivers of our cultures to share with others. Pavitr could just as well have been born in one state and moved around the country, and he happens to live in Mumbattan now. It’s entirely possible and there’s nothing to disprove that.

We don’t need to clamber over one another declaring that only one ethnicity is the “right” ethnicity, because, again, you will be looking at Pavitr and the rest of India in that narrow Western lens — a country with such rich cultural variety reduced to a homogenous restrictive way of life.

THE POLL: REINTERPRETED

This whole thing started because I was wondering why my little poll was so skewed — I thought people assumed I was asking them where he came from, then paired his physical appearance with the most logical options available. I thought it was my fault, that I had somehow influenced this outcome without knowing.

Truth is, I will never really know. But I will be thankful for it, because it gave me the opportunity to finally broach this topic, something that many of us desi folk are hesitant to talk about. I hope you have learned something from this, whether you are desi or a casual Spider-Man fan or someone who just so happened to stumble upon this.

So just…be a little more open. Recognise that India, like many many countries and nations, is made up of a plethora of smaller cultures. And remember, if you’re trying to convince Pavitr that he’s a particular ethnicity, he’s going to wave his hand at you and say, “Ha, me? No, I’m one of the people that live here in the best Indian city! I’m Spider-Man India, dost!”

(Regardless, he still considers you a friend, because to him, the people matter more to him than you trying to box him into something he’s not.)

*Note: thank you dear anon for letting me know that the third title was Bengali, twas my mistake for literally completely forgetting

#long post + more tags that kinda spiral away BUT expand on the points above AND kinda puts everything together concisely #BROS THIS IS AN HONEST TO GOD ESSAY #THAT HAS BEEN COOKING IN MY HEART FOR A WHILE NOW. SIMMERING FOR MONTHS BEFORE FINALLY BOILING OVER IN THE LAST WEEK #genuinely hope you read MOST of it because yes it has Quite A Lot Of Exposition but it all matters nonetheless #put in a lot of thought into this so i expect you to do your part and challenge your thoughts as well #you see how i'm not asking for you to listen to me. but to actually Think. i want you to cook your thoughts and add some spice and flavour #and give it a good mix so you can come out of this a little more wiser than before #because!!! yeah!!!! spider man india is just that!! he's indian!!!!! we don't need to collectively agree on where he comes from #bc it gets rid of that relatability factor of spider man. at the most basic level #think of it as a schrodinger's. he is every single culture and none of them at the same time. therefore none of us are wrong!! sick!!!!#pavitr's first priority is making sure HIS PEOPLE are safe. that's probably as far as we can go that relates him back to peter parker spide #he loves his people and working in the name of justice to FIGHT for HIS PEOPLE is just the duty/responsibility he takes up #it makes sense that he loves everyone and every culture he engages with bc that's the nature of spider man i suppose #if peter parker spidey acts as the guardian for the regular folk.. then in my mind pavitr spidey stands as the bridge uniting the people #because society as its core is very fragmented. and having pavitr act as a connection to other folks.... mmmmm beautiful #that's what i'm talking abouttttt !!!#anyways guys this is literally 3001 words on my document EXCLUDING THE TITLE. THAT'S 7 PAGES AT 11pt FONT. i'm literally cryingggg wtf #pavitr prabhakar #spider man #spider man india #desi #desiblr #atsv #across the spiderverse #atsv pavitr #indian culture #india #desi tumblr #what the fuck do i tag this as #agnirambles

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mooncheese3 · 11 months

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the man called otto au, old man!sj and the luo family. he was not able to escape wyz in the iac bc wyz decided not to sneak into it, instead spending that week in a brothel to waste away a truly big bag of coin he was lucky enough to snatch.

cw // suicide attempts, suicidal thoughts

bc of this sj wasnt able to find out what happened to yq and cultivate,and so stayed a mortal. one day wyz comes across another kid, and tries to off sj since he'd outlived his usefulness. sj outsmarts him, so wyz just leaves with his new assistant, not finding sj enough of a risk to keep alive.

sj wanders, able to get by with money he'd acquired via the things wyz taught him--all very much illegal. one day he stays a bit longer in a town, and ends up staying the night in a brothel. apparently when you assist them in kicking out a horrible customer, they wouldnt mind it so much if you were to sleep in their storage room for free. (his pretty face also helped lmao. the only privelege sj has is pretty privelege, but even that doesnt come often). one night turns into a few days, and a few days turns into a week, and suddenly sj works there.

there he becomes friends with some of the prostitutes, and finds himself with a pseudo little sister with the name sisi

a few years pass; by this point hes a young adult. sj decides to travel around. he still hasnt accepted that yq could be dead (even if his head tells him its very likely yq is), so traveling would mean possibly getting closer to wherever yq may be. he moves in the general direction of cqms, as that was yq's destination. he goes through towns, cities, forests and roads, takes on odd jobs and errands but never begs--never again--yet despite all of that no hide nor hair of his older brother can be found. sj considers going to cqms directly, but if he were being honest...

yq tended to see the good in people. while not a bad thing in itself, it usually led to shitty things happening to people like them. added with the fact that yq was a runaway child slave with no money, wore clothes that kept the cold in rather than out, was illiterate and never learned how to mapread, had never traveled so far on his own with only a vague sense of where he was going, with unkown humans, demons, creatures and plants everywhere on his trek,,, the chances of sj finding his older brother decaying rather than breathing was too high

going to cang qiong and not finding yq there... to him, it would be as close to a confirmation that yq was dead. so he avoids it. (he doesnt stop himself from listening in on conversations about cang qiong, though)

thats how he spends most of his life, traveling and seeing the world, learning about all sorts of things on the way. he spends the freedom hed fought for in what he feels to be the fullest without being around people he doesnt already know. if yq really was dead, then hed be seeing the world for both of them while he could.

when days are too hard and the thought that he'd sent his qige to his death is too strong, sj feels the temptation to follow yq into the afterlife. the sword hed stolen and the dagger up his sleeve find themselves in his hands all too often on those nights, yet no injury ever appears on himself and he breathes just fine the following morning

one day he goes back to the brothel he used to work in, and discovers that sisi isnt there anymore. after catching up with his old friends he travels again, southward where the brothel theyd transferred some of their staff stood

eventually he and sisi reunite. she introduces him to her friend, meng shi, and her son, meng yao. hes appalled when he finds meng yao reading a fake cultivation manual, so he teaches meng yao how to tell a fake from a legitimate one. he also teaches him how to /get/ a legitimate one under a fair and affordable price. sisi wheedles sj into teaching meng yao more, so he does

sj goes back on the road, and somewhere along the way settles in a hut along the luo river. but even when he lives on the outskirts of the village, which was already a decent distance away from any cultivational sect, he still hears news of the head disciple of qiong ding peak's achievements in the defeat of tianlangjun. one thing leads to another and sj finds out that yqy is in fact his yq

a confrontation happens; yqy is beyond happy that sj is alive, if a little shocked and scared that all hes seeing is a ghost his mind conjured up. like canon sj asks why yqy didnt come back, and since yqy is a do or don't there is no try person (this mentality really fucks him up), yqy doesnt give any "excuse" as to why he was gone. he was a coward, incompetent and careless in his rush to go back to the qiu manor. the fact that he went back too late and /tried/ to save sj but found the estate in ashes didnt matter. to yqy, it is the end result that matters, not the effort and process it takes for him to get there. he didnt save sj, and that was that.

in the face of what sj went through, what he experienced was miniscule. look at them! while yqy was dressed in expensive fabrics with a face that looked no older than 20 bc of his high cultivation, sj was dressed in simple and cheap robes with signs of age, hardship, and days under the sun. what right did he have to stand here and make himself seem pitiful and sympathetic when he couldnt even save sj? in the end, all he says is a wretched "im sorry for not saving you."

(hc that yqy always had this mentality, it was just worsened by his shizun. yes hes totally downplaying everything he went through on his quest to try to save sj. yqy has serious self-worth issues)

sj refuses to go to cqms with yqy. hes far too old to cultivate so all he'll end up doing there is be a servant. in sj's view that was akin to returning to his old life, just under a different master in a far bigger "estate"

yqy visits often, leaving behind trinkets sj could pawn or sell and bags of money to keep himself fed and warm. he tries to reconnect with sj, but (like canon, just even worse) sj is not having it. to sj, these "gifts" are bribes for him to stay quiet to keep yqy's pristine reputation. sj drives yqy away, but always finds himself watching as yqy leaves. it seems that therell always be a small part of him that wants his older brother back.

as sj gets older he gets sicker, experiencing aches and pains and dreaded headaches.

yqy notices, and so starts to leave medicine as well.

the longer this goes on, the more yqy looks sad and regretful. the dark cloud that hangs above his head grows darker each time he arrives and is chased away

sj abruptly thinks that he should disappear. when he was gone, yqy was doing well. its only after he showed back up in his life that yqy seemed to start being more miserable.

it of course didnt help that sometimes one of yqy's martial siblings accompanied him on his visits. always staying on the outskirts of his property, but always with an odd and/or dissaproving look on their face. sometimes, sj would faintly hear them tell yqy that coming here wasnt worth it, or at least something similar to it (sj doesnt see the harsh and downright terrifying look yqy would then send that person)

the first time he seriously tries to end his life, it is unexpectedly cut short by a rapid knocking on his door

THIS IS WHERE THE LUO FAMILY COME IN!!! mme luo comes knocking on his door one day, carrying a small feverish toddler. she has no money to go to the nearest doctor (this particular doctor likes charging too high), and the closest neighbor that hasnt already ignored her pleas for help is sj

sj aggrievedly lets her in, giving mme luo an appropriate dose of medicine so she could be the one to coax the kid into ingesting it. the child ends up recovering fairly quickly, and as thanks mme luo leaves a delicious plate of fish in a woven basket for sj

sj returns the basket. mme luo fills it again with another dish, this time with a bowl of sweet and sour pork with bokchoy soup

following the movie, everytime sj (otto) tries to khs, his attempts are unkowingly thwarted by the people hes shown kindness to

at some point mengyao (now very newly named jgy!!) encounters sj again. jgy doesnt stay long, since he does have to return to the jin sect, but he helps around the house. he cooks sj breakfast, teaches binghe etiquette, and becomes an indulgent culinary student to a very eager to show off binghe

each time someone barges into his life, sj always tells them to fuck off. most times he lets them in anyway, but others he shuts them out.

he goes too far one day, so mme luo does her mom thing and somehow gets him to open up. shes always tried to get him to do that, but sj always closed himself from others. this one time, sj tells her about his past and explains why he acts the way he does

while it is indeed the only time hes done so, he begins to allow himself to grow closer with others and let them get to know him, just as much as he gets to know about them

eventually, very slowly, qijiu begin to reconcile. yqy finds the courage to tell sj that he was hasty and was trapped within the ling xi caves, that he did go back, just too late. while theyll never be like they were before, they still had each other in the end

it would be nice if, unlike canon, him helping people inadvertently gets him to live, yk? kindness spreads kindness, that sort of thing

#original shen qingqiu #shen jiu #yue qingyuan #mama luo #baby binghe #sisi #meng yao #the man named otto au #watch the movie im being for real rn #its so good and its so sad #found family is so HMMSNN #yqy sheds tears everytime he comes back and theres more grey hairs on sj's head #sj is all “qige stop crying its natural🙄🙄🙄”#binghe steals hearts everywhere he goes #he also punches jgs in the family jewels the one time he visits his yao-gege #yqy of course helps binghe deal with the political aftermath #ive been having a lot of thoughts about the antagonists of mxtx becoming a family #i just think itd be neat

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