#is what balduran ended up being and

[butrememberthesong]

actually on a similar note

[rickoconnells]

Spoilers for bg3 ending under the cut but I'm having a lot of thinkings and also feelings on how you spare your companions from being manipulated by godlike beings while falling victim to it yourself repeatedly by the emperor's hand

Aaaanyway. I'm on my second playthrough, deeply unhappy with the choices I made in the first. Like a lamb being led to slaughter, the Emperor manipulates Tav into being little more than a pawn. And I'm annoyed. And this is word vomit.

Yes, you can refuse to give him the stones, and you can either damn yourself or save Karlach in the worst possible way, but regardless, Orpheus dies. The githyanki, who would kill the Emperor, remain Vlaakith's slaves. The Netherbrain, who would kill the Emperor, dies. He is free and you have served your purpose. You will not hear from him again. In fact, you only heard from him when he needed you.

He lies. Continually. Actively and by omission. He appears as the dream visitor, kind, exactly what you want to see - your protector, he REPEATEDLY reminds you. He opens up, he's vulnerable, only YOU can save this sad, trapped dream lord. Save him from what? He won't tell you. You're not ready. Just keep serving him and maybe one day you'll be good enough to know more. Just like Mystra holding back the Weave from Gale. Just like Cazador building an army using Astarion and his siblings' bodies. Just like Shar ripping Shadowheart's memories away again and again. Just be good and some day they will give you what you want.

He never lied. He just didn't tell you. You couldn't handle it. Didn't tell you he was illithid. He couldn't trust you. Trust him. Didn't tell you he was Balduran. Didn't tell you he killed his best friend, clearly in love with him, to save his own neck while that best friend was in the right. He could be once again controlled by the elder brain. He was trapped and controlled by Gortash. He had his fingers in the spine of Stelmane and by extension the city. He was a danger to everyone. But the Wyrm had to die - can't you see? He never lied. He just didn't tell you because it wasn't important. You weren't important enough to know. Don't be so silly. Don't overreact.

Whatever you do, don't free Orpheus. Because then you're being unreasonable. Then you're leaving him no choice. He has to join the Netherbrain, betray you, join what he has been forcing you to fight so hard against, kill you dead for not doing what he wanted, sacrifice you in a ritual of power, make you kill your parents, send your mentor to tell you to detonate the bomb in your chest, snuff out your life for a contract you've broken, take out your heart, make you a slave.

The game is telling you, over and over again, with your companions quest lines, that this is happening. And we all think because we're the hero of the story, it couldn't happen to us, when in reality everyone is the hero of their own story, and everyone has risked the same downfall.

[littlemonday]

Ansur and The Emperor

I need to share my thoughts on the worst-of-all takes from this fandom regarding the Emperor

I remember texting my brother once I completed the Emperor’s quest, learning that he was once Balduran and the love of his life Ansur attempted to murder him. I felt heartbroken reading the final letter he gave to Ansur telling him to fly away and be free of the torment of trying to find a cure. My brother told me this was the quest that made him decide to side with the Emperor in the end. There was such tragedy and loneliness to the Emperor’s story. First, there was the tragedy of Belynne’s condition and death, a condition I believe he’s either partially or largely responsible for, and then the tragedy of being turned on by the one person he loved and who was the greatest thing that ever happened to him.

You can then imagine my absolute shock to find so many players repeating over and over the outrage that the Emperor murdered his best friend, that he “chose” to become an illithid by choosing to live, that they (the player) would have sided with Ansur if they could, that this was the moment they decided to betray the Emperor, and (my favorite) he should have let Ansur kill him.

I’m hardly the first and only person to remind everyone that Ansur takes over your body against your will, he admits to trying to bring the Emperor a “merciful death” but the Emperor “chose to fight,” that Ansur doesn’t care why you sought him out, that he wrongfully calls you a thrall, and that moments after meeting him we are forced to kill him out of self-defense in much the same way the Emperor had to.

HOW do so many players misinterpret this scene so badly? How do so many players get basic facts wrong and frame this like it was a straight up murder and not self-defense? And, how do so many players take from this scene the belief that “the Emperor should have let Ansur kill him?”

This post is not me saying that you have to like the Emperor. Liking a character is purely personal, but I genuinely take issue with so, so many players seemingly unable or unwilling to engage with a text in a meaningful way and perpetuating this worst-of-all takes that the Emperor should have accepted death at the hands of his lover because of who he was without any further thought as to the implications of what they’re saying. This comes from the same fandom who absolutely loves Omeluum who also needs to kill people in order to feed and survive.

Something to consider with monsters in fiction, particularly modern fiction, is that monsters represent something about the anxieties and fears of the audience, but monsters are often, in the same text, meant to challenge our prejudices and fears, and invite us to see their humanity. That is: to see ourselves in them. This can be difficult with a character like the Emperor because he’s an unreliable narrator and his morality is messy, but his motivations are understandable, sympathetic, and his needs are quite human. The Emperor does represent our fears of losing our humanity, of losing ourselves, and the body horror of being transformed against our will is an extension of that. But we are also invited to see ourselves in him. That is: to see his humanity.

Others have already pointed out that the Emperor mirrors the player. If you dehumanize him, he dehumanizes you. If you empathize with him, he is kind back to you. But even if you’re kind to him, so often through the game you’re unsure what to think of the Emperor; you’re unsure of his sincerity, and you don’t necessarily know the extent of his manipulations, or how truthful he’s being. I think that’s what makes this scene with him and Ansur so interesting and so humanizing: there’s no mirroring going on, and there are no little bread crumbs of his life you’re trying to piece together. You’re just a witness to his tragic story of his greatest betrayal and loss. I found it heartbreaking, and I was surprised to find that for so many others all this scene did was solidify their belief that the Emperor is nothing more than a monster.

Edit: Rewrote a sentence since it didn’t say what I meant it to say.

[kitthenameless]

I made this other post about the Emperor and Ansur once, but I had more things I wanted to say and couldn't quite fit in without muddying my point.

This is perhaps a bit of a reach, but this is not the first time I've found a portrayal of turning into a monster that I relate to as a chronically ill / disabled person who became ill later in life. It has nothing to do with feeling monstrous (I don't feel monstrous) or even body horror, and everything to do with how disabled people are treated by society and even those closest to us.

Obviously disabled people don't go around eating brains. We are not dangerous any more than abled people are. But becoming a mindflayer (or whatever monster) is comparable in the sense that, it can happen suddenly, and then your whole life is different, your body is not what it used to be (maybe visually, maybe the way it works or doesn't work now), and you need certain accommodations in order to thrive or even just survive. But people treat you differently now, you're not really given any help, and truthfully a lot of people would rather you just be dead. You're abandoned by society to figure out your new life and all its difficulties on your own. If you're lucky, you have some people who care enough to help you. If you're not lucky, you do the best you can in your desperation.

And that's why it feels so messed up to me that Ansur just gave up on Balduran/Emperor once he couldn't cure him. He clearly believes this is still Balduran, as shown by how he speaks to him when you meet him. So in his mind, he wasn't even trying to kill some creature that just had Balduran's memories. He was trying to kill Balduran. Who forcibly underwent a change to his body and accepted it and decided he still wanted a chance at living.

Edit to add: I'm pretty sure the Emperor even says it wasn't easy at first, so he didn't immediately embrace being a mindflayer. He came to accept it with some time, and that feels even more significant to me.

Like I said, I know becoming a mindflayer is not exactly the same as becoming disabled because mindflayers are dangerous. But also like I said, in my other post, the game shows us there are options to living ethically as a mindflayer. It's just that no one even helped the Emperor try to find them. And even so, he did his best on his own by eating criminals (which there is proof of, in a transcript).

I don't even blame him for disguising himself to the player at first. Look at how society treats freed mindflayers. Look at how the Emperor's own best friend and lover treated him. It makes perfect sense to assume we would hurt him or refuse to help him too.

Some people are so quick to forgive the companions for all the messed up things they've done because they have trauma. The Emperor has been through shit too though. He wouldn't admit to having trauma, but he was kidnapped, had his body forcibly changed, had his mind enslaved, had his lover try to kill him, had to kill his lover in self-defense, and was enslaved a second time. Sounds pretty traumatic to me.

Anyway. It's probably random to end this by talking about books, but that's what I do (literally, I also have a book blog), so. The other stories I also related to in this way were Dead Collections by Isaac Fellman (vampires) and Bored Gay Werewolf by Tony Santorella (werewolves). Maybe look 'em up, if you like that sorta thing.

[the16thtower]

Wyll Ravengard fucking undoes me because while a lot of fans and the BG3 writers do him dirty, there's so much going on with his character that just isn't explored or elaborated on that is so fascinating.

I have a parent who functions as a pillar of the community in my hometown, who is incredibly competent and admirable, and who judges me harshly for supposedly making choices that ruined my life. It's really difficult trying to wrap your head around all the different layers of that kind of relationship and Wyll never gets to really address it properly.

If we think about what happens after he gets kicked out of home:

What does he get to take with him? Does he even get a chance to pack any belongings? He looks like a normal human for the most part when we first met him, so what did Ulder tell people? We don't know about his mother's side but is there any family or family friends he could stay with? Did Ulder poison the well with everyone Wyll knew by being upfront about the pact or did he lie and make up another equally damning excuse for exile? God, just the idea that Ulder looked his son in the face (freshly injured) and immediately threw him out is devastating. Wyll is so certain about the prudence of his father's decision when we met him but either:

This is a perspective he's eventually made peace with

His conviction in his father never waned

which both suck! Either his idol, his father, screwed up massively or he has so little concern for himself that it never occurred to him that Ulder's justification was shit. Ulder is the Duke of Baldur's Gate, with all the resources that grants him, and he didn't even try to contact an expert on demons to try and get more info on his son's situation? What the fuck! There's the whole bit with the Trials of Balduran about appropriate punishment that Wyll agrees with that he doesn't even think to apply to his own situation. It can really fuck you up having your hero, who you admire for the good they do for others, decide you're not worthy of that same good.

Wyll tries so hard to be a good person and to lead by example but never seems to see himself as an acceptable recipient of the grace and kindness he shows others.

Does Mizora just immediately whisk him off to different parts of the Sword Coast to start acting the part of the Blade of Frontiers? He's seventeen, homeless, no support network, and fighting monsters - I'm going to lose my fucking mind. That's ridiculous. That kid was already dealing with his father's intense expectations (from what Wyll describes, Ulder was raising Wyll to follow in his footsteps, which is a steep ask). He then suddenly loses everything, on top of the stigma of demon association - Wyll's mental health must have tanked at some point. Depression, anxiety, and PTSD are definitely on the table (plus phantom pains from the prosthetic eye).

Just thinking of this teenager learning how to drink properly with no one looking out for him, trying to numb things a bit, and just becoming a sad wreck every time. Just... there's so much there with Wyll having to grow up very quickly in very lonely circumstances. We know he has some acquaintances, like the tieflings, but who actually knows what's going on with him? Is he still shouldering his burdens alone? Is MIzora around bothering him or does she flit in and out of his life? He's in exile for seven years.

And he's still a romantic and an idealist! Unflinchingly, genuinely, with his chest! He endures! He becomes a hero. It's beautiful. He survives and cultivates his best qualities in the face of awful circumstances. Wyll has this intense sense of morality and will (pardon the joke) that never permits him to sway from the right thing, even with everything stacked against him. And it routinely costs him! It's so, so hard to do the right thing and he still does it because he simply can't see another outcome worth living through.

It upsets me a little that Wyll ends up doubling down on what a good person his dad is when they reunite - as if Wyll hasn't demonstrated infinitely more empathy and compassion for other people, even when it actively impedes him. He's good because he chooses to be good and seeks to understand, not because he's able to follow the standards set by other men.

This is not a particularly organised discussion but fuck, I love Wyll Ravengard.

(UPDATE: I've just made some edits for clarification since I didn't express myself well. Also, this is a game that requires hundreds of hours of gameplay so be kind if I don't know everything.)

[mumms-the-word]

Illithid Souls - Part 2

The Case Studies: Tav/Durge and Orpheus

In Part 1, I went over some of the basics of what a soul normally is, where souls go after death, and whether mind flayers have souls. I ultimately ended up saying that most humanoids have apostolic souls (souls that deities recognize as being capable of divine worship), while mind flayers have some other kind of soul, one that isn't recognizable by deities or devils. This is why Jergal and Mystra and so on think that illithid don’t have souls. When a humanoid with an apostolic soul turns into a mind flayer, their soul is either ejected and moves on to the Fugue Plane, or their soul is transformed into a non-apostolic soul (depending on what you want to believe).

But the problem is, that's normal lore, and BG3 has made things a little strange by imbuing all the tadpoles that infect our characters with Netherese magic. And that, friends, makes the BG3 mind flayers different.

This post is going to look at some interesting context from the game for the Emperor, Tav/Durge and Orpheus. (It got pretty long so I'm moving Karlach and Gale to a third post.) We're going to figure out whether the rules about mind flayers and souls change now that there's Netherese magic involved. The ultimate answer is yes, but how? And is it consistent?

(Spoiler: it isn't, but you can use this lore to come up with your own theories and ideas)

Let's take another deep dive! Buckle up, and don't worry, I have a short summary at the bottom.

The Case of the Emperor

I'm actually not going to linger too long on the Emperor because for many reasons he breaks the lore. If he's Balduran and a mind flayer, he shouldn't have lived as long as he says he's lived. Not only that, his memory is allegedly flawless when the lore states he shouldn't remember any of his previous life (there are other inconsistencies too, but that's a different post). However, I do want to touch on a couple of things.

The Emperor both is and isn't our baseline for how a mind flayer normally exists. He should be a normal lore-accurate mind flayer (though a rogue one), because he wasn't infected with a Netherese-touched tadpole. But he's a Special Mind Flayer instead, for reasons we don't entirely understand (again, he generally breaks the lore). Perhaps this is because of his brush with Gortash and the other Chosen of the Dead Three, or perhaps he just somehow has a strong enough personality that when he broke free of an elder brain's compulsion a lot of his memories came back to him. Who knows?

But regardless, a few conversations with him reinforce the idea that mind flayers typically aren't completely soulless. At the very least, they still contain memories (he has his memories of his time as Balduran), intelligence (he's a schemer, that's for sure), and personality/emotions:

Emperor: You think that mind flayers are soulless husks who feel nothing. Belynne thought the same at first. You are wrong. Feeling is vital to the pursuit of anyone's goals. Even a mind flayer's. Like you, mind flayers know fear. Like you, we crave recognition. But unlike you, unlike the others of my kind, I am no slave to either. My end is and has always been freedom.

We can quibble about whether or not he's manipulating the player here, but his words are generally true. As discussed in part 1, mind flayers are not soulless husks. When they're enthralled, they might be more devoid of independent thinking, but they have emotions/feelings and can create memories. They just might have a smaller range of emotion than humanoids do (thus his reference to "not being a slave" to fear or desire) and their memories might not be entirely their own (more on that with Karlach in part 3).

Regardless, the Emperor is our leading authority for what it's like to be a mind flayer, so we're sort of forced to trust him when we ask him to explain what full ceremorphosis is about to do to us, especially because its his Supreme Tadpole that is about to change us.

Player: What would happen to me? Emperor: You would be altered in mind, body, and soul beyond all recognition.

So this is interesting. Altered in mind and body, that's a given. Altered in soul, though...what does that mean?

Remember in Part 1 where I offered two theories about what happens to the original soul of someone undergoing ceremorphosis? Theory 1: they just die and the soul moves on to the Fugue Plane, and the mind flayer gets a new illithid soul from...somewhere. Theory 2: The soul transforms and remains tethered to the mind flayer body, different than it was before (potentially unrecognizable as the original soul, but some elements of the original may remain).

The Emperor's words suggest more of theory 2 here. But is that, in fact, what happens when we become illithid? Well...let's find out.

The Case of Tav and Durge (or most Origin runs)

When you do turn into a mind flayer, the narrative typically focuses on how powerful you feel. Your mind and body feel as though they are one and you are also desperately hungry. There isn't much in the Narrator's dialogue or your dialogue with your friends to suggest that your soul has been completely obliterated, though.

In fact, there's an interesting moment that happens if you turn into a mind flayer without the Emperor there and go up to Orpheus still in his cage. The way I accomplished this was to ask to change into a mind flayer so the Emperor would give me the Supreme Tadpole, then I said I would change later, then stopped the Emperor from consuming Orpheus so he would leave. Then I used the Supreme Tadpole to turn into a mind flayer and went to examine Orpheus.

Narrator: *His eyes are unseeing, his voice silenced. But even with his mind caged, you can feel his power. You can almost taste the fluid beneath his scalp, cushioning that sweet, dense brain, and the power within it. You are hungry.* Lae'zel: I see that look, I know that look. Don't you dare. Player: [Wisdom Check] Cling to your former nature. Quash your hunger. This is not who you are. Narrator: *Your mind and body whine with disappointment. But your soul lets out a gentle thrum of relief.*

I find this fascinating for a couple of reasons. One, the check I chose (there are two, the second is a strength check) meant reaching out to a "former" nature and reminding myself (or my Tav's self) that this is not who she is. When I succeeded, my Tav's mind and body protested, but her soul was filled with relief.

So she has a soul! And it seems to be her own soul, but perhaps transformed. So this sort of supports theory 2, that perhaps when humanoids turn into mind flayers, their soul is altered. This could also just be a quirk specific to those infected with a Netherese tadpole, or even further, someone who transformed using the Emperor's Supreme Tadpole.

Because here's the thing. When Tav/Durge, Orpheus, Companion!Karlach, or any Origin character transforms into a mind flayer using the Supreme Tadpole, they become a special mind flayer. This is mostly due to the Netherese magic, which adds some weird and undefined changes to the whole mind flayer thing. I'm going to use "I guess it's the Netherese magic/Supreme Tadpole" as a scapegoat this entire post because I don't know what else to point to to explain how these guys are just Different Than Your Average Mind Flayer, so be prepared for that. But at the very least, we know something's different.

In fact the Narrator literally says you're probably different than the average mind flayer after you defeat the Netherbrain!

Narrator: *You are a mind flayer, the very thing you sought to eradicate. Whatever self you still possess is quickly ebbing away. Your friends and enemies alike are ripe for manipulation, and if not manipulation, then consumption. Soon you will be able to trust yourself at all. You will be a monstrosity beyond redemption. Or not. Perhaps you are unique among illithid-kind. Perhaps you will retain enough of who you are to resist your nature. A rogue mind flayer. Like the Emperor. The risk is certainly yours to take - will you?*

Unlike normal mind flayers who lose most of their memories (and allegedly most of their personality/former selves) almost immediately after transforming, it takes Tav/Durge/most Origins longer to lose that sense of self, if indeed they lose it at all. The Narrator suggests we might be losing parts of ourselves, but there's a chance we're unique and might retain our sense of selves.

We do see glimpses of us retaining our personalities in the epilogue of course, but what is more interesting is if you decide to imprison yourself post-ceremorphosis. Withers will visit you in prison for a final conversation. (This conversation shifts a little if you're a Durge, but here is the Tav conversation.)

Withers: Thou remainest in thy chains. A hero, sacrificed. I told thee once that an illithid hath no soul, and yet...something glimmerest about thee. Something is not lost. Dost thou feel it? The spark of the divine within thee? Or does thy hunger consume thee? Player: [Option 1] I'm still myself. I don't know if I belong here. Player: [Option 2] I feel the hunger. But I feel myself, too. I'm not sure which to trust. Player: [Option 3] Have you come to torment me with hypotheticals, old friend? Player: [Option 4] Does it matter? This is my life now.

If you go with option 4, you hear Withers ponderingly say, "Thy life...yes..." before moving on to say that fate isn't done with you yet, which is his response to all the other options as well.

But the more important thing is that even Jergal recognizes a "spark of the divine" within you. Your soul should either be cast off and already wandering the Fugue Plane (if going with theory 1) or so completely transformed that it's no longer an apostolic soul that Jergal would be able to recognize as a god. Yet Jergal recognizes the soul within your mind flayer body as being...well, partly apostolic.

Interesting!

We get a similar dialogue if you sacrifice yourself as a mind flayer, too, though this is fascinating because now it's Withers literally finding your soul (still shaped like a mind flayer, which is interesting) somewhere that is...very gray. There's a suggestion that this might be in the Fugue Plane, or in some limbo state where souls sometimes end up, but regardless, Withers, the soul-finder himself, was able to track down your lingering soul.

Withers: Thou flickerest in the dark - but with mine keen eye, I hath scryed thee. I told thee once that an illithid hath no soul, and yet thou seemest to have something of the spirit about thee. I cannot account for it. How delightful. Tell me, how doth it feel to roam about as thou art now, transformed? Player: [Option 1] Where am I? [mumm's note: he basically doesn't answer this question lol] Player: [Option 2] I still feel like myself. My memories, my feelings - all intact. Withers: No matter how many aeons I have roamed this world and beyond, I am ever-surprised by mysteries new and old.

Even Withers is surprised that the soul you have is something he not only recognizes as a soul, but as your soul. I love how amused and intrigued he sounds when he says "I cannot account for it. How delightful." He even smiles when he says it. He thinks you're super neat! And also a new phenomenon.

(As an aside, I wonder if you being mind-flayer-shaped but still recognizable as you is a hint that your soul did indeed transform to be illithid, but didn't fully transform into a non-apostolic soul like normal illithids would. Like, I wonder if your soul is now half-apostolic and just permanently mind-flayer-shaped. RIP. But this would explain why bringing you back via True Resurrection is kind of a nonviable option since you'd just come back as a mind flayer, and this is the ending where you took your own life to avoid being a mind flayer for forever, so I doubt you'd even want to come back if you couldn't come back to your original body. Things to ponder!)

Anyway, you having something that has glimpses, sparks, or hints of the divine/the spirit about you does tell us that as a mind flayer, your soul wasn't destroyed. It may have been transformed, but you're not as soulless as you thought you were going to be, and you're actually still pretty close to being who you were before the transformation.

Close, but not perfectly or exactly like you were before. You did transform, after all. But these changes become more obvious in other examples, such as with Karlach.

You having a partly-apostolic soul that retains all its memories and most of its original personality is obviously VERY unique and different to what most mind flayers experience. For example, if you turn yourself illithid and then free Orpheus (again, see the same steps above, but go a step farther and actually free him this time), then Orpheus will be utterly shocked that you're capable of independent thought.

Orpheus: What is this... A mind flayer in possession of its mental faculties? This is the stuff of fables. It is as if I am reliving the legend of Oryndoll. You are the illithid Urengol, rebelling against your own hivemind. And I am the noble githyanki Valraag who must now reconsider his position. An illithid capable of rebelling against the Netherbrain's instruction... Not only capable but willing... If your intentions are as righteous as they seem, this is an advantage I cannot overlook. An advantage that must be grasped, for our enemy is formidable indeed. Very well. I propose an alliance.

A couple of notes here: Oryndoll is/was a real mind flayer colony far, far below the surface in the southern regions of Faerûn (beneath the Shining Plains). Not only is it ancient, but the wealth of knowledge stored inside via illithid technology rivals and probably even surpasses that of Candlekeep's library. There's at least one book in the game that talks about a foolish drow adventurer searching for Oryndoll, only to end up a mind flayer, while another hints at Oryndoll's role in the history of the Duergar race. But these are the only mentions of Oryndoll in the game.

Oryndoll has a history in D&D lore, but there's no mention of Urengol and Valraag (that I could find). If this is a fable Orpheus knows, it's apparently so ancient that only he remembers it. But that itself is interesting, because it makes Urengol his closest reference to you having become a rogue, independently-thinking, and emotionally driven mind flayer. He can't think of any other examples, that's how unique you are.

The most important thing here is that Orpheus literally considers your independently thinking self as so baffling, so impossible, it should only exist in fables. That, I think, says a lot.

The next question is, does he think he would become just as unique?

The Case of Orpheus

We all know Orpheus can be convinced to turn into a mind flayer and sacrifice his soul for his people. I'm sure he genuinely does think he is sacrificing his soul, as there is no real precedent that he or anyone else seems to know of for a person who turns into a mind flayer and keeps their soul (or at least keeps their same memories, personality, and intelligence). But if he's surprised that he's kept all his memories after turning illithid, he doesn't really show it.

You can ask him about it, of course, after he's turned into a mind flayer and after you've defeated the Netherbrain. His response is kind of interesting.

Player: You're a mind flayer, but you're still you, aren't you? Orpheus: Yes. But for how long? My mind screams. It will never stop until it has slipped away from me entirely.

No one else seems to define their illithid experience this way. I'm curious if his mind screaming is referring to the hunger he feels, the same hunger he is actively trying to resist, but he doesn't elaborate on this. Regardless, he's certain that while he has retained his personality (and probably his soul) for now, it's not going to last.

This is why he asks for an honorable death after the defeat of the Netherbrain.

Player: You don't deserve to die. Orpheus: I will not be ghaik! I did what I did to save my people. [...] The rest is up to them. Someone else must rise within the ranks to lead the revolution against Vlaakith. Give me my freedom from this form, release my soul to the Astral Seas while I still have one to call my own.

Orpheus believes that he only has a temporary grasp on his soul or consciousness, which may or may not have transformed into a different kind of soul. Then again, if he thinks his soul is going to the Astral Seas, maybe it doesn't matter whether his soul was transformed from apostolic to non-apostolic. I'm not even sure if githyanki have apostolic souls at all, since they wouldn't really be interested in the deities that govern matters on the Material Plane. I mean, for a long time Lae'zel wants her soul to be eaten by Vlaakith (a literal lich queen who eats souls) via "ascension" so...

I also have no idea if his soul, once released to the Astral Seas, would be mind-flayer-shaped. I guess that's the great mystery. I would assume yes, but I also don’t know how souls manifest in the Astral Seas and finding sources on this has been difficult (it all boils down to “ask your DM”).

Orpheus can be convinced to stay alive and just hang out in a far-off "corner of these realms" to watch his people fight against Vlaakith from afar, and there's kind of a hint that him agreeing to do this means he isn't actually afraid he'll lose his entire soul. But at this point, we're getting too far into "maybes" and "what ifs" to suggest anything concrete.

Quick picture break of Orpheus contemplating the Supreme Tadpole to break up the text (I just thought it was a good shot)

Now I do have to acknowledge two things about Orpheus: one, he could be a special mind flayer precisely because of his unique abilities to shield his mind from elder brain compulsion, which means his unique abilities could also be the reason why he retains so much of his personality and therefore his soul. Since most of the time you end up eating his brain and absorbing his abilities, this could also explain why you retain so much of your own soul if you become a mind flayer instead.

In this scenario, you’re a special mind flayer because (1) you have a Netherese tadpole, (2) you transformed using the Supreme Tadpole, and (3) then you ate Orpheus’s brain. All three elements could be at play.

But not everyone eats Orpheus’s brain, so that theory has holes. I genuinely think you just end up being a special mind flayer because of the Netherese magic that messes with your tadpole. The Supreme Tadpole plus Orpheus’s abilities would only be the icing on the cake, so to speak.

The second thing I want to acknowledge is that there’s a glaring plothole for Orpheus even turning into a mind flayer at all, if you play the game a certain way. If you send the Emperor away to free Orpheus before the Emperor gives you the Supreme Tadpole (for example if you send Lae’zel over to smash the chains holding Orpheus captive without talking to the Emperor, which is what I did one time, and the Emperor was literally like “don’t talk to me again bye” and left), then how does he turn into a mind flayer? He doesn’t have a tadpole and you don’t have the Supreme Tadpole to give to him.

He gets around this with you or Karlach by saying he’ll lower his mental shields so that your tadpole hears the Netherbrain’s orders to transform and then replace the shields again.

Orpheus: My defences keep the voice of the Absolute out, but just as I can raise them, so I can lower them. I will allow the voice of the Absolute in. Once it reaches you, it will order you to transform. It will only take a moment. And once you are a mind flayer, I will fold you under my protection once more. You will be the saviour of empires, not least my own. Narrator: *With the withdrawal of Orpheus' power, your mind is rushed with the full force of the Netherbrain. You feel a compulsion unlike anything you've ever known - excruciating and exhilarating in equal measure. You wish nothing in the world but to evolve. Then - complete silence, as you are once again closed off from the Netherbrain's mind.*

So that makes sense, and it means you being a special mind flayer could boil down to your personality being hella strong + you being infected with a special Netherese tadpole. In this scenario, the Supreme Tadpole can’t be used to explain your unique soul-keeping abilities, and neither can you attribute your soul-keeping abilities to consuming Orpheus's brain (since he's still alive). So maybe the Supreme Tadpole and/or Orpheus's brain doesn’t have any effect on why you keep your mostly-unaltered soul.

In the end I guess it’s just the weird Netherese tadpole that does the trick? Honestly, I wonder if it all boils down to the fact that the Netherese tadpole doesn't eat your brain, it just lies dormant and incubating in your head, so you're not losing brain matter. (But this ignores or forgets that when you eat other tadpoles you literally watch them burrow into your brain matter so I'm sure the magic has something to do with it too.)

But anyway this still doesn’t explain why Orpheus, who shouldn’t have a tadpole, somehow turns into a mind flayer by, I don’t know, manifesting it??? Or why he is also a unique mind flayer once he does this without the Supreme Tadpole. I mean in his case I’m sure it is because he has special mind shield abilities but still. How did he turn into a mind flayer without a tadpole? Make it make sense, Larian.

He literally just touches his head with a psionic magic effect, which is the same gesture he uses to lower his mental shield to allow the Netherbrain to force you to transform. It's also interesting that if you have him transform using the Supreme Tadpole, then he doesn't say anything as he accepts the tadpole from you and absorbs it. But if you have him change without the tadpole, then he says, "The Netherbrain will be only too pleased to claim me."

Which...kind of implies that he's somehow able to communicate with the Netherbrain or hear its voice, so...maybe he secretly does have a tadpole? I mean, a popular theory is the Emperor probably did tadpole Orpheus off-screen since he seems to have a level of compulsion over Orpheus, but this is never explained or mentioned in the game so do whatever you want with that theory.

But I digress.

Let's do a quick summary, shall we?

TLDR: You're probably a super special mind flayer who gets to keep their soul mostly intact (or mostly unaltered) because your tadpole was imbued with Netherese magic and generally doesn't eat your brain. You might also be super special because you transformed using the Supreme Tadpole (optional) and/or consumed Orpheus's brain (also optional). Orpheus might be a super special mind flayer simply because he's Orpheus, and that is why he can still retain most of his soul/personality, even though he keeps thinking he's going to lose it. His status as special mind flayer seems unchanged whether he transformed using the Supreme Tadpole or not, so it really must be an Orpheus Thing.

Phew. That was a lot. And honestly, Karlach and Gale only complicate things, so they're going in a separate post. Keep an eye out for Part 3!

~*~*~

You made it to the end!!! Amazing, you deserve an achievement or something, but all I have are more gold stars.

✨⭐️🌟⭐️✨⭐️🌟⭐️✨

Tags for those who wanted the update! @galesdevoteewife @stuffforthestash

[mademoisellegush]

Enver Gortash, né Flymm: a tentative timeline

OR: I try to make sense of whatever the fuck is up with the Dark Urge's oiliest ex-fwb

enver flymm lives with his parents, sally and dravo flymm in the lower city, cobblers for generations, etc. he tinkers a lot, "traps and mechanisms", described as "needy, foolish, wicked, demanding attention, very crafty, smart boy - too smart" "He was always a little monster. Nasty to the core. He would've torn me and Dravo apart with his whining, his demands, the never-ending racket of him!" (note: they note that they made enver feel powerless, and this would have been the inciting incident that made him feel justice= revenge and fear)

the parents owe money to The Guild, the criminal organization that basically ran Baldur's Gate behind the scenes (everyone either owing them money or getting kickback / blackmail from it)

a warlock shows up and offers money for Enver. they sell their son to said warlock.

Enver seems to have changed his name then, either the warlock doing it or him denying the flymm name?

warlock then brings Enver to the House of Hope - I assume Raphael might have been his patron? which would mean raphael wanted enver from the start. Nubaldin, who used to work in the prison of the House of Hope, calls him "a mischievous little blot of a boy, who slipped through his fingers"

at some point during his stay in the prison of the House of Hope, Enver figures out about the Crown of Karsus held in Mephistopheles' vault. he escapes the house of hope

back in faerun's plane, he starts moving against the Guild. There's a report to Nine-Fingers, Guildmaster, of "upstart smuggler Enver Gortash making inroads on the illicit arms trade in the chionthar valley", though states it's more like "annexation", replacing the Knights of the Shield and the Zhentarim. definitely had a grudge to bear against them lol

Notes that seem to be from somwhere in this period of time:

"lavender scented diary of lady wisteria jannath" where hes like. seducing this old pariar for the diamond ring worth more than her mansion.

a letter to franc, a now deceased arms dealer, where hes like being a freak about how "weapons distributions continues like a parent saving their drowning child: swimmingly" and also how he loves "any man willing to birth a little more slithering wet malice into the world"

1482 DR (for sure, from dialogue with Karlach saying it's been ten years), he's selling Karlach (who looked up to and liked him !) to Zariel in order to get the prototype for his Steel Watchers. because i think he can't be satisfied with what he actually has, he wants *everyone* to like him, through being terrified of him and his weapons.

at some point, meets with the Dark Urge and ally together. they steal the crown of karsus with halsik's help. the Absolute hoax is put into motion

they get ketheric and myrkul in on it, after the crown heist, by digging isobel up so she can get necromanced.

Gondians fit here (as the note by Vance Farnol places it)

not too long before the game (at most a year? two?), orin poisons and tadpoles the Dark Urge and goes to Ketheric and Gortash to act as Bhaal's Chosen. Dark Urge becomes a test subject chew toy for Kressa Bonedaughter at Moonrise.

gortash tadpoles his parents "months" before the game, as sally flymm states if you talk to her.

My question: when did Enver Gortash find the Emperor/Balduran and bring him back under the domination of the Elder Brain, as part of taking down the Knights of the Shield? Or when he and the Dark Urge had acquired the Crown? does anyone have a screenshot of the interrogation sequence between those two?

(note: the emperor has a devnote for the emotions the Voice Actor was supposed to express when gortash proposes an alliance thats like. Yeah he's lying but i hate his guts, and you could always betray him first)

[galebrainrot2024]

GalexTav Enemies to Lovers Part 23

Part 22 | Read on Ao3 | Master List

Summary: Gale and Tav continue on their journey from childhood rivals, to meet again to destroy the absolute. Gale's POV. Mutual pining, sexual tension, we love to see it. Content is a bit mature, not explicit. Enjoy and thank you for reading :)

Tav had excused herself from the tent, slipping out with Wyll to leave Gale ruminating on their kiss. The blood still pooled between his legs and his skin was on fire. Gale’s cheeks burned and his mind reeled from their kiss, his body ignited and hungry in ways he had forgotten existed. 

It was such a severe whiplash he had trouble grounding himself, his body tingling and alight and starved for unholy entanglements. 

He pinched his bottom lip between his fingers and then brushed his thumb across, as if to mimic the sensation of her lips. He could still taste her, fresh on his tongue - it was like cranberries, tart yet sweet. The taste of the salt on her skin, how supple and delicate she felt beneath him. Gale shifted, trying to cool his illicit thoughts and groaned. Carnal hunger threatened to consume him. 

Gale stood dumbfounded and without a singular thought apart from her. Her smell lingered on his skin, a citrus and earthen blend - it filled the tent in her absence. She could not have fled quicker and he was convinced he had mucked up his chance. Perhaps he wasn’t as sensually skilled as he believed himself to be. But he had been told countless times, even pre-Mystra of his tongue’s exceptional talents. Besides, was she not the one who boldly expressed their desires, encouraged him to taste her? 

He moved in a trance, trying to put together a coherent meal while his thoughts still lingered on Tav. Gale groaned when he realized he added sugar instead of salt to the dry rub and pinched the bridge of his nose, irritated with himself and this foolishness. He was a grown man, yet the bodily appetites and emotions drowned Gale in a turbulent mess. He had forgotten how consuming such a yearning was. 

In a way, he was grateful she left. It meant he had time to think. 

Gale was confident they’d speak at dinner. When he began the cook over the fire, her noticeable absence felt akin to the throbbing of the orb. A lingering ache, a hunger for something long gone. His eyes flicked across camp and yeilded nothing. He asked his companions, and all offered the same half-hearted “haven’t seen her, sorry.” 

*** 

“Wyll said there was some canoodling,” Karlach nudged Gale, almost provoking him to drop his plate. 

“Karlach,” Wyll glowered at her and Gale felt warmth spread up his neck, grateful that Shadowheart and Astarion were eating on the opposite end of camp with Halsin, both interested in the Druid’s… skill set. 

“What?!” Karlach said, her mouth half full of food. “You can’t seriously think I was going to keep that to myself, did you? Especially because it’s Gale?” She smiled playfully in his direction and Gale snorted. 

“It seems I scared her off -“ before he could finish, Karlach cut him off. 

“Come off it,” she rolled her eyes and leaned forward, setting her plate down. “Listen, I may not know the details yet - I expect to soon enough - if Wyll is being half as truthful as he insists he is, it sounds like that kiss was hot.” 

“KARLACH,” Wyll’s complexion reddened and he darted his gaze to Gale, shrugging as if seeking forgiveness. 

“Wyll,” Gale began, “I wonder… did you happen to spread this information throughout all of camp?” Despite the evenness in his tone, there was an edge - what if Tav found out everyone knew, and assumed it was him that told? Would she think he were boasting, would she find it shameful? The thoughts balled and grew until he was convinced that’s why she was nowhere to be found. She wanted nothing to do with him. 

“On Balduran’s grave, I swear I only told Karlach!” Wyll shot her a scowl and she smirked. “I should have known she’d throw me to the wolves, though.” 

Karlach snickered and leaned back on the ground, “You should know better than to tell me something steamy about one of my best mates and expect me not to say anything. I’ve been telling Gale for weeks -“ she sat upright, looking sternly at him. “That there was something there. Finally. Glad you did something about it. How was it? Hot as you expected?” 

Gale shut his eyes, gritting his teeth. His entire face was hot, and he wanted to crawl out of his skin. 

“From the looks of it, it seemed Tav did something about it.” As Wyll said this smirking, Gale felt his stomach lurch and ran a hand over his face. Wyll laughed and patted him on the back, “Don’t worry Gale, we won’t tell anyone else. Might as well let us have a little fun with it, things are gloomy enough. We have to find the bright moments where we can. Even if it’s a little fun at the expense of our friends.”  

Gale sighed. “Ha-ha. Consider me thoroughly amused.” He returned to pushing the food on his plate, his appetite elsewhere. His gut twisted, panic creeping into his thoughts - what if he was so out of practice she couldn’t bear to face him? As Gale tormented himself, when he felt Karlach nudge his side and tilt her chin, indicating Tav slipping into her tent. 

Standing quickly, the bowl of food that rested precariously on his lap spilled onto the ground and Scratch bounded over, sniffing the contents for scraps. 

You bedded a goddess, how difficult could this be? 

**** 

He felt the eyes of his companions burning into him as he stood outside the tent, the flap shaking in the wind, a tiny dancer. He froze, unsure of whether to enter. Turning to steal a look at Karlach for encouragement, her insistent gaze ushered him forward. Gale shut his eyes and took a deep breath, “Tav?” His voice was hoarse so he cleared his throat, trying again. “May I come in?” 

Rustling. A crash. A quiet ‘shit,’ and then a breathless: “Just a second,” he felt his lips curl, amused by the frantic noises coming from within. When she poked her head out, her hair was mussed and her cheeks red. Gale felt his heart stop and his lips parted. Inhaling, he waited for her to speak. The silence was thick with words unsaid, and he felt his body inch closer to the opening where she was. “Sorry,” she finally managed. “I… just…” the way she stumbled over her words gave Gale the confidence he needed.

His shoulders rolled back and he took another step forward, leaning over her slightly as she rested in the threshold. “You just?” He murmured, pressing his lips together for a moment as he gazed down at her. Her pillow lips called to him and he felt the electric current move effortlessly between them. 

When he felt her deft fingers clutch his purple shirt, goosebumps spread across his body and obliged as she pulled him into her tent. 

The space was small, hardly large enough to hold one, let alone two bodies. Gale had to duck, the tent not near tall enough for him to stand in. Tav sat on her bed roll, and she patted the ground beside her. As he looked down at her, he was gripped with the need to have her. 

Perhaps this was a bad idea. Without breaking her gaze, he sat beside her, grunting as he lowered himself and rested back on his elbows. “The knees aren’t quite what they used to be, I’m afraid.” 

Tav tucked a stray hair behind her ear and tilted her head. “So...” 

Gale stared at her, wide eyed for a moment before breaking out into a low chuckle. “So.. you needed a moment to recover, I imagine, because the passion was too much for you?” He ran a hand through his hair and felt his skin pulse with desire when she blushed and laughed, the tone giving away her own desire. Every fiber in his being wanted her. “Imagine how stunned I was to find you don’t hate me, after all,” Gale murmured. The dim light in the tent cascaded across her features and made her dark eyes seem endless. He could barely make out the coloring of her eyes. 

A cocky grin crossed her lips, “Hate, desire… the frustration rears its head, one way or another.” She fiddled with her fingers and looked down. “I’ve never hated you, for the record.” 

Gale rose his brows and grinned, “Now I know you’re lying.” 

She flicked her gaze to his, her cheeks blooming crimson and she frowned. “I’m serious. Frustrated by you, absolutely - envious of your status at times, certainly… you just… oh you get under my skin in ways no one else does. It drives me insane.” 

He chewed on the side of his cheek and sat upright, shifting closer to her. He knelt in front of her, feeling the intensity of the air between them shift. His fingers reached out to cup her face and he felt her shudder in response to his touch. He caressed her cheek with his thumb and he searched her eyes - there was so much yet to be said, and such precious little time to tell her. 

Before he was able, though, she leaned forward and grabbed his face with her hands, pulling him over top her. Their lips met in a lecherous kiss, the kind that makes every cell stir with sinful arousal. Their tongues rolled together, dancing with one another and he hovered over her, not quite putting his full weight on top. Her fingers clutched at his waist impatiently and he felt his erogenous zone stir to life. He grunted, trying to pull back and she wrapped a leg around his waist, pulling him closer to her until his stiff arousal pressed against her thigh. He groaned, pulling away from the kiss to press his face to her neck, breathing heavily. It took all of his self-control to pause and her frustrated whine nearly made him erupt with bliss. 

“Please, don’t be mistaken… I want this,” his voice was husky and low as he pulled back to gaze down at her, “I want you, more than I believe I can eloquently articulate at present,” he cleared his throat, acutely aware of her hips pressing up into his, wanting. Aroused and undone by the way she was looking at him. 

“So then have me,” she breathed as her leg hooked him tighter, and he felt his stomach knot. 

“Patience,” Gale said, brushing the hair from her face and planted a hot kiss against her neck. “Patience.” With the will he wish he did not have, he unhooked himself from her grasp, but allowed his fingers to teasingly stroll between her thighs, earring him a mewl. Oh, why did he have to have any sense of morality. 

When he went to stand, her gentle fingers wrapped in his. “Stay with me?” She whispered the question. He hesitated, enough for her to pull him back to her bed roll so the two were lying side by side and he felt her greedy lips brush across his jaw, her voice echoing in his ear. “Stay with me…” he sighed, tilting his head so her lips to continue to explore his neck. He knew he should leave. Needed to leave. 

“If you insist.. for a little while,” Gale’s voice was thick and raspy and he struggled to compose himself. He was grateful and still disappointed when she pulled back to rest against his chest. The warmth and weight of her body was alien yet so comforting. He had forgotten how nice such a mortal, simple thing could be. His arms wrapped around her naturally, holding her to his chest. 

They stayed there in one another’s arms, the silence stretching onward and Gale’s eyes grew heavy with sleep when her voice cooed to him. “When did you first learn?” Gale’s head tilt made her expand, “You could access the Weave, I mean.” 

His stomach sunk. “Earlier than I had memory.” He grinned crookedly, his eyes holding on to hers as if she’d slip away. She looked at him, enraptured. “Luckily, not so soon before.” 

Her soft smirk and fingers tracing idle patterns on his chest made the encasing around his heart continue to melt and beg to let her in. “One such memory stands out among the rest, though. I could have been no more than eight summers old. Elminster had come, after receiving more than a few worried letters from my mother about my unruly connection with magic. How she discovered his contact details, I’ve never learned.” 

“Mm, sounds familiar,” Tav said, rolling her eyes in jest. 

He rose a brow and grinned, “Did you not ask? Very well, I’d be loath to bore you…” 

“I’m teasing you, I want to know -“ she said, the words tender and wrapped him in warmth. It felt like the first bite of melted butter on a fresh bun. Exquisite. Her fingers brushed hair from his eyes and he trembled at her touch, cupping his hand over hers. “The child prodigy was being visited and….?” 

“Ah, yes,” he said, chuckling, “it was the summer before I was to attend Blackstaff. Elminster was sitting with my mother on the terrace when I came barreling into the room, eyebrows entirely singed off by the fireball I accidentally unleashed unto my neighbors rose bush.” 

Tav’s melodic laughter soaked his mind, “I’m sorry, I don’t mean to laugh, it’s just… thinking about you without eyebrows.” 

“Ha,ha,” Gale said, though he was unperturbed and enjoyed her playfulness. “I’ll have you know, I was devastated. I wept, clinging to my mother’s apron and spilling out desperate apologies. The flowers were so beautiful and I hadn’t meant to destroy them…” his voice caught in his throat and he surprised himself. Her fingers against the hair on his forehead brought him back to reality and he sighed. “I had been reckless, and excited, yet to learn that wielding power carelessly  begets destruction. I had wanted to enrich the flowers, to somehow make them more glorious than they already were - I was almost angry at how lovely they appeared and could not figure how to conjure my own.” When he flicked his gaze to her, he could not place her look. “What?” He furrowed his brow, worried that he may have said something wrong. 

“That’s.. very sweet.” The tremble in her voice alluded to the emotion coursing through her, yet Gale was clouded with sleep and his own, unable to untangle her feelings. “I didn’t realize…” she blushed furiously and he tilted her chin to look at her. “What else is hiding in that vibrant emotional world of yours, I wonder?” 

He felt the heat lick up his neck, both embarrassed and elated by how Tav accepted his vulnerability. The two stewed in the silence until she sat up, and he followed. Although he ached to stay, he stood despite her protests. “We should both get some rest.” 

“I wish you would stay.” Tav insisted, reaching for his hand which he took graciously. 

He brought her hand to his lips, “I know. I promise, your patience will be generously rewarded. Goodnight, Tav.” And despite his bodily wishes, he left. 

[limpfisted]

Wyll ravengard is a very funny character because he literally just. Has no idea the terrible things wrong with baldurs gate

Hes like BALDURS GATE IS A JEWEL. It WOULD HAVE WELCOMED REFUGEES 10 YEARS AGO!

Maybe thats true. Ten years ago. I doubt it. But maybe. TEN YEARS AGO. (Tbh I hope it isn't bc that means ulder made the city actively worse LOL)

But descent to avernus is a canon and it takes place the same year as bg3

There were HUNDREDS of refugees from elturel. Even more than are outside the gate now from the absolute

And they ALSO were not allowed in. In fact, some of them are beaten in the streets by the very flaming fist that wyll's dad is in charge of. For the crime of being refugees, I guess.

If u read the 5e stuff about baldurs gate its clear that baldurs gate is a truly terrible and unsafe place to live if ur poor. Even if ur rich its unsafe, but then at least u can stay in the upper city and gamble all day long away from The Poors.

Its a place defined by inequality and crime but also culture and magic and pride

Wyll sees the best in it, he sees the pride and the people and the magic. He was privileged enough to see only the best in it

As much as I love the idea of wyll as a fairy tale prince returning home and everyone loves him---ulder being from the lower city and going versus the nobles is HARD and he has had to fight to keep his power and fight to keep the lower city safe from the guild and make bad deals and lbr to work with the flaming fist, to work with the evil ass patriars, he had to let some things slide

Wyll has his work cut out for him! Just as his father did!

And I think being grand Duke would present an interesting challenge for him as a character, in that he would not be able to solve problems by fighting monsters or killing devils. He has to deal with evils of injustice, even within the people who work for him who protect him and who he may have at one point looked up to

And that's extremely difficult

There is political intrigue and frustrations and tragedy to be had

Wyll genuinely has the compassion and empathy and charm to help baldurs gate.

BUT.

The point of wylls narrative and the stuff with balduran and ansur is very much a wake up call that the fairy tale of his fathers hero balduran is built on lies and there is no one great man that can save baldurs gate. Just like there wasn't one great man that built it

Gortash himself is like, a foil to this because he believes he's the one great man who can fix every problem with literal mind control

It is MUCH easier for wyll to just step away from baldurs gate after all this. And if u let HIM choose, that's what he does

If he becomes grand Duke and his fathers heart of the gate, he becomes responsible and beholden to things we can't imagine

And tbh? Wyll doesn't have that many of his own allies like his Father had. He has to rely on people like florrick, people like the flaming fist. People who respected his father, people who will talk over and take advantage of the 26 year old who stopped his education at 17

His story doesn't really end here, u know? It's really just beginning

In fact with an evil arch Duke everyone genuinely seemed to believe in dead, so many patriars dead, Duke Stephane dead, who knows what happened to vanthampur, the flaming fist had sided with gortash, who knows what happened to the actual upper city watch.

Literally and truly. The story of the absolute, and BALDURAN is finally over. But the story of baldurs gate? Baby thats just beginning

[enakane]

Hi, I figured you'd have an interesting take on this, as the #1 The Emporer fucker (affectionate) on my dash. I've always seen Ansur's attempted murder of the Emp being less "you're a horrifying monster who I must kill before you turn on us, even if it kills me to do so" and more "the man I knew would never want to live as a mindflayer, the man I knew would be horrified at what he's become, the man I knew would rather die" but he didnt consider that the man he knew was dead the moment he turned into a mindflayer, as it's (I think) canon that mindflayers feel and think differently than other races, so the 'man he knew' had been fundamentally changed in such a way as to become unrecognizable in his thought process, and thus, would no longer agree with his past-self. So while I don't think what Ansur did was right, I don't think he's the out-and-out villian some people paint him as, just someone so blinded by grief and fear and sadness, that he doesnt realize how changed Emp was. And then when you show up, the Emp at your back and an elder brain on the rise, I think Ansur is blinded by rage, and grief, and betrayal. He thinks all his worst fears about Emp have come true, and that you're, at best, a pawn in Emp's game, and at worst, a thrall, so that's why he attacks. Havent played that section in a while, so I might be talking out of my ass, but that's my take based on what I remember. Thoughts? (Sorry this is so long, I am a Verbose Bitch.)

(brb gonna get "#1 Emperor fucker" tattooed somewhere on me, truly an honor)

I totally agree that Ansur's intentions were first and foremost to enact what he thought would be Balduran's wishes! As far as he knew, he was dealing with an illithid puppeteering Balduran's body, and after failing to bring him back to the way he was (if I remember well, Ansur tried for some time to restore Balduran to his former self but failed), killing him was equivalent to putting down a zombie.

Mind flayers indeed canonically think differently from other races, plus (depending on the source), the host's mind either mostly or completely disappears once ceremorphosis is complete. There was a high chance he was dealing with a master manipulator that only pretended to remember who it used to be to be set free. Ansur was hardly evil for wanting to end Balduran's cursed existence/kill the thing pretending to be him, and Emp was hardly evil for choosing to live.

(If I start talking about how the Emperor wanting to live despite everything ties in perfectly with the game's theme of choosing to live in spite of irreversible changes + the I Want to Live song, I may never shut up, HE'S JUST LIKE US FR-)

Ansur remains as a ghost due to his unfinished business, so when he feels Emp near and speaks to you and him... The situation hasn't really changed for Ansur. Either Balduran is still an illithid or there's still an illithid pretending to be Balduran, and like you said, the chances that you're either a thrall or being manipulated are very high, so why wouldn't he try to finish the job and consider you an unfortunate collateral damage? There's no more evidence that Balduran is actually in control than there was the first time. Plus, I'd never considered that Ansur might feel the Elder Brain nearby and assume Emp is responsible; that would indeed make him feel betrayed and more willing to attack.

I definitely understand why people aren't too keen on the idea of trusting the Emperor bc mind flayers have a Reputation(tm), but how people came to hate Ansur is kind of weird imo? He's not a villain at all, his decision to kill Emp was a desperate last resort, a way to free Balduran from his torment and save the many people who were gonna get their brains eaten if he got out. I know some people dislike that he possesses Tav, but I played that scene before reading about it and it never bothered me, I mean... he's a ghost. If I'd played through bg3 without getting possessed at least once I'd be lowkey disappointed.

Thanks for giving me an excuse to ramble about my bg3 fave, I hope I'm coherent lol

[alisha-is-sorry-for-the-emperor]

I know it's somewhat ambiguous if the mind flayer who tadpoles you in the cinematic at the start is the Emperor or not (the eye colour isn't the same, the design doesn't quite match, but it was an old cinematic and Lae'zel doesn't look exactly the same either. And it does appear that something has already attacked other mind flayers on the ship when it tadpoles you). Or, if it is our Emps, if it was enthralled at the time or not (as well as being a pawn of the Elder Brain). I suspect the game leaves this up to the player to interpret as they prefer. Not having protagonist-centred morality, I am not particularly disturbed by the possibility; it did what it had to do to oppose the Dead Three.

One argument for it being our Emperor is the Song of Balduran lyrics: "A knave, a wizard, devil, gith The odds are cast anew And Baldur's fate now turns upon The whims of fortune's few..." ...did it pick out a nice balanced squad for the job, from the victims available? That would explain a lot. Having played a side-with-Orpheus playthrough, I do find it somewhat heartrending the way the Emperor is floating around the battlefield still labelled "Renegade Illithid", saying "this was the only way it could end" until the player's team kills it. I kinda wish we could save both Orpheus and the Emperor, though I also love it when fiction forces genuinely difficult tragic choices.

[fainlin]

I never really wanted a Gortash romance, like yeah it'd be fun but there's far more things the game needs done to it than adding more content that would just end up being incomplete. And, I think that is what is upsetting me more than the loss of the Franc letters. Act three is still a mess, Wyll still has less content than literally every other companion even his quest in act three isn't even really his it's a Balduran lore dump. Halsin is still pointless past act two and feels like he's just there to bang, and Minthara still is a mess. There's still content from EA just sitting around, voice lines that make no sense, pieces of content that go no where and are entirely pointless and instead of addressing any of that, Larian seems more focused on changing little things and sanding down their own characters. They feel like they don't even have confidence in their own writing anymore, it's not EA so I don't see why these things are really necessary other than to try to please everyone and end up pleasing no one. Removing the lanceboard scene when the guy in question literally only has eyes for himself, to the point I wouldn't be shocked he has a mirror on his ceiling to watch himself get railed by himself. He has no interest in Mol in any way other than to pluck her soul because he's a devil. He's just gross like that. Then to make Lae'zel nicer, like sure I like the changes for approval I guess but certain changes end up feeling more like they're fan servicey and less about actually improving the game. I understand the outcry when people thought Larian had changed Gale for a moment because Larian keeps doing things exactly like that, albeit in small ways. All I really want is for Act three to have impact and not be as flat and pointless as it is, for the main two villains to actually be villains instead of feeling like cheap tiny lil mini bosses when Raphael gets to feel like a real boss and he's not even main content he's entirely optional. Losing the slithering wet malice thing isn't even that big of a deal to me what is though is the fact they're willing to completely give up character personality and not even address that they're making these changes in the patch notes. It feels like I have to go in and take stock of every letter and every book and every dialogue option before it inevitably gets changed because Larian has no spine when it comes to their characters and their writing. It just sucks, it doesn't feel like this is making way for any new grand content it doesn't feel like anything but sanitizing at this point. I don't even really understand what could come from making Gortash bland boring tyrant no.56093 because yeah anyone could write that, it makes him entirely less memorable and I hate that because Orin and Gortash really deserve so much more than that, they deserve to be as fleshed out as Ketheric thorm, but instead they're just fucking jokes. If that was Larian's goal well I think they succeeded. TLDR; Act three is just incredibly unpolished, and I don't see why kissing animations and changing small little flavor letters, and making characters nicer and this and that really solves any of the actual problems the game still has. Sure it's nice, but I'm tired of seeing this be what the game has ultimately devolved to. Really hope I'm wrong, hope there's big content on the horizon, maybe the upper city making a come back, but I'm not gonna hold my breath.

Edit: And to be real here, I still like Gortash, I'd still love a romance if one ever happened. It's just I'd really like it to be thought out and not just well thrown together and spit out really fast. I just really want the game to be complete and it's best cause I really love it.

[animentality]

Things that could be further developed in act 3:

1-The press quest, what do you mean the guy you made an alliance with is sabotaging you for free and what you do has no impact on the merchants in the city?

2-Gortash, as a whole, my experience was he was in the morphic tank when I did the Gondian quest, and he doesn't say anything when we meet, I was like, brother, there's no robot in the city anymore.And tav dear,you discovered how the citywatch is fucked up, and you SAY NOTHING?

3-Karlach as a whole,my hope is now that she is top 3 romanced character she will get some development,I think the developers didn't expect her success, like she's not even on the official poster.I am even ok, if you can't cure her but at least idk discuss how she is trying actively being a good person, after she worked for gortash and spent years as a frontliner in hells,how just because you're good now does not mean it erases the past. (Redeemed durge parallels let's gooooo)

4-THE WHOLE PLOT TWIST THAT THE EMPEROR IS BALDURAN, AND HE KILLED HIS EX BOYFRIEND.And I as a balduran and a BARD (I was waiting for the dialogue check for me trying to flirt with the dragon to save myself, a classic cliché) for rp reasons I don't want to kill ansur.

5-Apparently there is no epilogue if you choose the ending in my name or in bhaals name, at least I didn't find it.So...cmon Larian let me see 😔😔.

Listen to me, anon, and listen well.

There needs to be a fucking Avernus/Devils/Hells DLC.

Hear me out. Who is missing the most content?

Karlach and Wyll.

What are they connected to? Devils. Raphael. The House of Hope. Zariel. Mizora. Hello???

PLUS, I get to see more Gortash shit, because he should've been sent to the House of Hope, and you should've had the option to save him. Maybe have HIM fix Karlach's goddamn heart, and start his road to...being useful, if not redeemed.

AVERNUS. HELLS. DEVILS.

They gave us the House of Hope but didn't involve Gortash with it at all??? Besides some crummy voice lines?

That's horse shit.

Oh the people I'd kill just to see Raphael and Gortash have a single scene...urgh.

[artistictea]

Balduran and Ansur make me so unwell. What a tragic story, what a horrific end they had. The despair, the desperation. Balduran's complete assurance that he wanted this while his mind twisted and changed right in front of Ansur's eyes. Ansur being incapable of stopping it no matter how hard he tried. Their final fight, Ansur trying to kill Balduran through tears, the instinct of self-preservation. Having to listen to Balduran say, through the most calculated tone he's had through the game, that he did what he had to do. That he's not blind to what he gave up, but he still did. And for what? Was it worth it? Balduran, what have you done.

[forcedhesitation]

the end of wyll's quest is....interesting. it was VERY cool. I thought having the archetypal fairy tale prince go "slay the dragon" was a fitting ending, I just feel like it was....a little underwhelming in some ways.

more under cut

first and foremost- I wish that it was not possible for your tav/durge to converse with ansur. I wish that it automatically selected wyll, because I simply do not think that this entire scene has as much impact if it is not wyll at the forefront of everything. which is why I also have to complain about the emperor here.

the reveal that he is balduran is.... well. I knew about this already, through accidental spoilers. Initially, I thought it was a stupid reveal. but reframing the reveal in the context of a fairy tale...well it makes perfect sense. it just FEELS a bit underwhelming and strange, because your player character is not wyll. this entire area feels like it was written with an avatar wyll in mind. and I wish that there were changes made to the companion wyll version of the game that made up for this. wyll is a character who is hugely tied to the main plot by virtue of being the duke's son. he spends the game searching for his father, while trying to deal with both mizora and the absolute. mizora is the one he sold his soul to to save the city before, the reason he was cast out. the absolute wants to destroy and steal his city. and ansur, a legendary dragon, might be his way of saving the city and getting his father's approval back. ansur had wanted to kill balduran because balduran had been infected with a mindflayer parasite, but had embraced his illithid nature rather than rejected it. I feel like there's some parallel that can be made to wyll there. in that he was othered, like balduran was, because he accepted mizora's help. ansur condemned balduran because ansur is a bronze dragon and therefore lawful good. wyll's father exiles wyll because wyll was "at best a fool, at worst a traitor," in his father's eyes and his father tolerated neither. wyll & balduran are both victims of the inflexible nature those of lawful good alignments have. they are both seen as monsters for what happened to their bodies. I wish that was emphasised a little more. like autoselecting wyll for the ansur dialogue & giving him dialogue with the emperor would have made this ending feel a little more complete, in my opinion. and it would have better demonstrated the point of having the emperor even be balduran. because that's such a fairy tale thing, the stuff of real legend! for the hero's mysterious guide to actually be some great old hero thought to be long dead. and I do think it works. it just doesn't feel as impactful if wyll is not your avatar.

I also wish this area was overall bigger & more developed. I know they redid wyll's character from EA. I know they had less time. I just. I wish that this area was as detailed as the sharran temple in act 2. it feels like SUCH a big deal, it feels like it should be bigger. especially since at lvl 12, you're just. unkillable.

but the dialogue afterwards, where he says he's in the mood for celebration and wants to make a celebratory dinner? SO CUTE!!! that man's joy is contagious!!! I could practically feel him holding back how much he just wanted to jump around with joy. and the sweet little "let's hope gale won't be too upset that I'm cooking for once and not him." I love you. you are too fucking sweet wyll. this fucking city does not deserve you. this playerbase does not deserve you. you are a true gem and I wish people saw you are just as beautiful and interesting as astarion and gale.

a cool possible scene they could add, to given wyll's questline more material IS that dinner he talks about. or preparation for it! something where he asks tav/durge to taste the food beforehand? or where your avatar can ask him about where he learned to cook, prompting him to talk about his time as the blade of frontiers? out in the sword coast on his own? this scene could easily be platonic or romantic, but be given extra options for a romantic relationship. but something like this could truly be added at an earlier point in the game too, it doesn't have to be tied to this particular moment.

but overall really cool area of the game. very cool bossfight. and a rather clever ending to wyll's quest, contrary to what his haters say. I love the commitment to the fairy tale theme. it just needs a bit more. maybe it feels more satisfying if you've romanced him. although I've heard his act 3 romance scene is currently bugged? his unromanced questline is slightly bugged (doesn't rob you of any material, though, it just replayed some dialogue for me). either way, I hope that gets fixed asap. I so badly need to experience this romanced version in my other campaign.

[mumms-the-word]

A random thought I had about the whole illithid soul thing. It's totally possible you touched on this somewhere in one of your posts and I've forgotten about it lol so sorry

So if we think the special tadpole that turns tav/karlach/whoever into a mindflayer at the very end is some kind of advanced tadpole that allows them to retain their souls, or at least a little bit of it, what do you make of Omeluum? He's the exception of course but he comes across as caring, empathetic, etc. He cares about Blurg and the society and the citizens of the Underdark. And he's grateful to tav for saving him in the iron throne and wants to help them defeat the Absolute. I just wonder how much of his original personality/soul is still in him. I guess it could be the same as Balduran. The emperor says his personality was just so strong that he retained at least part of it.

ANYWAY a follow up question: do you think when someone turns into a mindflayer they IMMEDIATELY lose their soul/any sense of their nonillithid self? I'm thinking specifically about the cut scene in the final battle where civilians start turning into mindflayers and immediately eating brains. Are they just following this new unfamiliar instinct while their former self is still somewhere in there thinking wtf is going on? Or like, soul gone, evil now, eat brain, previous self destroyed completely?

Excellent questions! I actually avoided talking about Omeluum because I felt like it was too much side lore but I love him and I’m delighted to talk about him

disclaimer that this isn't like...super well-thought-out or amazingly organized because the brain isn't functioning that well today but I didn't want to make you wait 2-3 business days while I dug up screenshots and crafted a whole ass deep dive. so the thoughts/theories below the cut are my Best Guesses lol but there are plenty of thoughts/theories!

First it’s worth thinking about how Omeluum was able to break away from being enthralled to an elder brain. Omeluum explains that he was able to break away because he was a spellcaster, probably a sorcerer who studied to become a wizard:

Player: How did you escape your colony? Omeluum: I was born with a propensity for arcane magic my people despise. It gave me the strength to resist the elder brain. Every waking hour, I pushed back against its dire hold. My wizardry empowered me. The moment its control shattered, I fled before the colony discovered I had defected.

So it sounds like he has some memory of who he was, or at least what he was capable of, before his transformation. But it's also a smidge unclear. For example, is "my people" the mind flayers, or his original race? Because mind flayers also hate arcane magic because they think psionic magic is better. But perhaps he comes from an anti-magic people group and is referencing them instead.

That said there’s no way of knowing whether the personality we see in Omeluum right now is the same one he had pre-transformation. There are hints in his dialogue that suggest he’s been around for a while (he's certainly not a brand new mind flayer) and I do think over time mind flayers change and adapt who they are, whether or not they’re enthralled to an elder brain. Whether this is merely a product of time (everyone changes over time), or because they consume and retain memories, or it’s an intentional choice they make, it’s not entirely certain, but I'm sure mind flayers do change as they mature and develop.

But I think his caring, empathetic qualities are genuine. It’s possible these qualities were part of his original soul/personality but it’s equally possible these qualities are ones he learned by interacting with Blurg and other Society members. Mind flayers aren’t emotionless, they just feel…differently. They might have a smaller emotional range, and typically every emotional thing they express appears muted or subtle (we see this especially with Karlach, who loses a lot of her usual exuberance, and even Blurg is like "Omeluum isn't given to strong emotions" when discussing him), but as long as they’re not enthralled, they’re capable of care and empathy. It just might look different.

I mean, even Omeluum phrases his relief and gratitude toward you in distanced terms when you save him from the Iron Throne. He says stuff like "It is...pleasurable to see you" when you talk to him at the Society of Brilliance and when you say that you like him, he responds with "I too feel some...warmth at your presence." He picks both words with hesitancy and there's a kind of distance there, but he does feel those things.

There are other hints in his other dialogues, but I don't want to clog up this response with tons of screenshots. But from the datamined dialogues we see that he is capable of joy, warmth, pleasure (words literally written in dialogues and narrator observations), as well as empathy, concern, and good-aligned morals (he actively tries to make the world a better place, wants to help stop the Absolute plot, and is even trying to research ways to eat fewer brains to sustain himself).

But whether all of that is due to his prior personality, I doubt even he knows. I'm sure there is a pre-transformation influence there, but he doesn't pretend he's anything other than a mind flayer. For example, if you tell him about the nautiloids, he says "What a brilliant experience. To feel one step closer to my ancestors is a fine gift indeed." Elsewhere he talks about the illithids being his people and while he doesn't group himself with their goals, he still talks about them being his collective people-group. He'll say stuff like "our warships" and "the gith rebelled and ended our dominion" when talking about mind flayer history, but then in act 3 he'll say "Given my kind's involvement in creating this evil, it is only right that I do my part in helping you defeat it" to explain his actions in helping you and say "I do not share my kind's opinions on the value of other living beings. I would have seen them all saved, if I could." when you point out he could have just looked after himself and not the Gondian hostages and Ravengard.

So basically, while I think there might be some prior influence or some of his original soul/identity still lingering in him, I think he's just a genuinely empathetic mind flayer. My theory is some of it existed prior to his transformation, but he nurtured that empathy while living as a mind flayer. I don't think he's empathetic because he's got more of his original soul still lingering around than most other mind flayers, I think that he's just...genuinely nice. An outlier for a mind flayer, for sure. Anyways I'm hoping that all makes sense.

As for your second question, I think normally yes you lose essentially most or all of your original identity the moment you transform (some memories typically linger, but not always) but you don't suddenly go feral. Normally you lose your soul/identity because a normal illithid tadpole literally ate your brain matter, so what’s left, essentially, is a blank slate (whereas for your soul my theory is that it morphs and transforms). You'd be hungry and instinctively you'd crave other brains, but I don't think you'd suddenly go about killing hundreds of people in your path. But you'd also not really be thinking independently, since you'd be connected with an elder brain who is issuing commands to you. So normally, just after you transform, you’re basically a mindless puppet at the start, though I’m sure as time goes on mind flayers grow a little more autonomous (as we see with Omeluum). But they don't suddenly go evil and attack everything on sight...at least, from what I understand of normal lore.

The cutscene you're referring to is not at all a normal situation. The people in that mid-battle cutscene are infected with Netherese tadpoles which only transform a person at the express command of the Netherbrain. Also, in that specific moment when they transform, the Netherbrain is actively shouting commands for everyone to destroy each other. So I think for those people, the sudden transformation would have been overwhelming because it came completely by surprise, and then their brains (which theoretically should also be capable of retaining more personhood like Tav and Karlach do because everyone's got the same kind of tadpole) is literally filled with the irresistible voice of the Netherbrain who is very loudly like “TRANSFORM. DESTROY.” over and over and over again.

Like, seriously, if my "the Netherese tadpole makes you special" theory holds any water, then anyone with a Netherese tadpole could potentially retain their soul/personality after turning into a mind flayer so long as they have access to the Astral Prism's shields to get them through the battle. Unfortunately for the city of Baldur's Gate, the Emperor is extremely picky about who he lets in.

The only reason we and our companions don't end up the same mindless, destructive mind flayers as the Baldurian citizens is because of the Astral Prism, and even then, we get close. If you trigger forced ceremorphosis (using Gale's orb in act 2, trying to go back to act 1 after killing Ketheric, attacking the Emperor in the Astral Prism without having a way to free Orpheus, etc), then you see how helpless we are to resist the Absolute's command to transform and then become her thrall. But also, if you get Orpheus to transform you into a mind flayer by him reducing his mental shields around you, there's a hint there too:

Narrator: With the withdrawal of Orpheus' power, your mind is rushed with the full force of the Netherbrain. You feel a compulsion unlike anything you've ever known - excruciating and exhilarating in equal measure. You wish nothing in the world but to evolve. Then - complete silence, as you are once again closed off from the Netherbrain's mind.

I'm sure that's more or less what is happening to the people in the streets too. But since they're under the Netherbrain's command, they're also getting commanded to kill and destroy. I doubt they have time to get their bearings or even understand what's happening because they're just reacting to commands at that point.

So it's kind of a unique case for them too. I think when they transform, they don't have the mental capacity to think beyond what the Netherbrain is forcing into their minds. If they survived the battle and were conscious when the Netherbrain went silent, maybe there was a chance they could have remembered something of themselves, but we'll never know, because they were all being killed in the streets.

Theoretically, those people could also have retained their identities (because again, Netherese tadpole) so there's a chance they might have "watched" their horrible actions from afar without having the power to stop themselves from acting. But there's also a chance that everything was just completely overwhelmed by the Netherbrain's voice and any chance at keeping personhood was taken away, first by the Netherbrain's incessant voice, and second by the very quick culling of mind flayers after the Netherbrain was defeated.

So...TLDR, normally the transformation would be like you waking up and being like "who am I? I'm hungry. That voice seems sensible. I'll listen to that voice." But the mid-battle Netherbrain transformation would be more like "OH GOD PAIN--The Voice says I must destroy, I must kill, I must eat, I must destroy, I must kill, I must eat" and maybe there's the original person deep down inside going "wtf is happening" but also maybe not.

So...maybe that helps?? Happy to chat more or clarify if I need to!