#ivf

[yellowtribe]

Hard to enjoy a long weekend when your mood and body temperature changes every hour it seems.

[dxmedstudent]

Agree with the above.

From my forays into the topic (as a VERY pro choice doctor about to do IVF myself) this sounds about right. A lot of the arguments seem to be:

It separates reproduction from "the marital act" and they feel that this personally deprives the baby of some kind of religious meaning. Because they think all sex should have the possibility of conception and that getting married is essentially consent to having sex...which is,by their definitions, consent to having children - if you're in one of the branches that does not believe in contraception. Now, you can actually get perforated condoms to take samples - so the religious couple have vaginal sex, in theory some of the sperm can get through (as they feel God intended) and then use the semen still in the condom for the actual IVF.

This leads some people to say things like "but the baby isn't conceived out of LOVE" as if people with fertility problems (and LGBTQ people who use assistive reproductive technology) don't love their partner. And as if half of pregnancies aren't conceived by accident - many of whom are literally from one night stands, some of which are also conceived out of rape. I'd argue that a couple waiting years to conceive, and often spending a hefty chunk of money, are doing so out of love and a very deep desire to have and love a child.

(More after the cut)

But also, once a child is born, they are worthy of love and respect regardless of the circumstances of their birth. IVF babies (and rape babies, one night stand babies, babies who were not wanted etc) are not lesser humans because their conception doesn't fit some narrow narrative).

Also, they often hate masturbation and are really weirded out by fertility clinic sperm collection rooms because they MAY have porn in them. But like... there's nothing saying the sperm donor can't be looking at pictures of his wife. You don't have to use the porn. And these days they expect you to use your phone to your taste, anyway. But also, if you are masturbating with the express intent to impregnate your wife, it's not Onanism? Because he got in trouble for trying to deny his brother's widow an heir as was expected at the time. That said for some people any form of spilling seed not inside your partner is some sort of grave Sin.

They want to stop LGBTQ+ people having kids - I saw one post alleging that one gay man who had kids via a surrogate was a child abuser - and their argument was "this is why surrogacy and IVF are always EVIL" . They want the "right" people to have kids. They want to get to decide who these "right" people are. LGBTQ people are not Bad People and have every right to want a family if they choose - their right to do so shouldn't be curtailed by someone else's religion.

As stated, many people fear women taking reproductive control. They fear and hate contraception. They fear and hate abortion. They fear and hate IVF for those same reasons. They fear and hate surrogates because why would a woman choose to give up her child? IVF and IUI lets single women and lesbians have kids. Sometimes they even cite how these treatments are Just A Tool Of The Patriarchy, as if women aren't able to make their own choices about wanting kids, without a man to do it for them.

There's a propensity for people to forget that bad people can, and sadly always to some degree, will, have kids unassisted, and the majority of people who are shitty parents or even abuse their kids, don't need medical help to get kids. We cannot usually predict who will end up being a bad parent or abusive ahead of time (so we need to be vigilant and act early if there are legitimate concerns), but and it's not our job to police who gets to have kids - outside of authorised services taking steps to ensure safeguarding of kids once they are born.

Part of many people's deeply held beliefs, even if they are atheist, is the christian idea that if you work hard and are good, bad things will not befall you, and that bad things are a punishment from above. Therefore if you do have any kind of health problem, some people consciously or subconsciously believe that on some level, you must have done something to deserve it. This often leads to people smugly saying things like "infertility is just your body/fate/Gd/nature saying you shouldn't have kids!" If you help people who are suffering, then in their eyes you are upending the normal order of things - they see infertility as a punishment we shouldn't be saved from.

Leading on from the above, some people (admittedly, usually pro life atheists, who do seem to exist) are pretty mad that fertility treatment is, in their view affecting human evolution by not letting those of us with - in their view undesirable genes- die out. I don't know why this is a big thing for them, but it is.

Which is ironic because people often misunderstand IVF and say IVF is practicing eugenics... whilst people simultaneously use arguments dangerously close to eugenics to try to deny people IVF. It's also not really medically accurate since there are a lot of completely non genetic causes of infertility. People seem to think IVF parents are put there choosing to have tall blue eyed kids, when in reality conventional IVF with PGTA may allow parents to select against certain known high risk genetic conditions, it's not really legal to use it to pick random characteristics. Many genetic conditions are sex-linked, so parents sometimes find out the gender, but most of the time the advice is to transfer the embryo that looks most likely to succeed, and not select for gender - and in many places this is heavily regulated or not allowed at all. Could there be a handful of super rich people bribing IVF doctors to pick 'designer' babies? Maybe? But the vast majority of people undergoing IVF are just normal people trying to bring a pregnancy to term with a live baby. That's it.

IVF, like human reproduction in general, uses a lot of embryos that won't become pregnancies. This is because our reproductive system is kind of Janky. We can lose 10+ eggs each menstrual cycle because our body prepares multiple follicles but only one will mature and be released (if you release 2, that's how you get fraternal twins!) - the rest just die. IVF allows us to mature ALL these eggs and collect them, and give them all a chance at being used.

The pro life crowd are often disturbed by the number of embryos frozen. But realistically, whilst it's not impossbile to do IVF by just taking out 1 egg at a time, but that would be much, much more inefficient, time consuming, expensive, and frankly much more dangerous for the gestating partner/egg donor as they would have to go through the risks of a lot more egg retrieval cycles. Embryos are preferred as they actually freeze a lot better than eggs, and are much less likely to die in the process.

The pro life crowd kind of forget about miscarriages and why they happen. A good chunk of unassisted pregnancies conceived the old fashioned ways will simply become early miscarriages - this is baked into our reproductive biology as a way to stop foetuses with severe genetic abnormalities developing, among other reasons. Now, people will often hear that not all embryos will be picked/used by couples, or that the "best one" will be picked, and assume that the other embryos are being bullied. But actually... not all eggs will fertilise. Many embryos may fertilise but will stall and die before becoming mature enough to implant back into the body - which would just have been a non-perceptible miscarriage if it happened in the body and is very normal/common with unassisted conception. Of the embryos that were frozen, some will die after being thawed. Of the embryos that are inserted back into the body as part of IVF, some will not implant, or will implant and lead to an early miscarriage. Just as they would have done if conceived in-utero. It's just that with IVF we KNOW the number of eggs and track it at every stage, and we see it happen. Whereas with unassisted conception, it just looks like the couple had sex for a few months and no babies happened, and maybe she had a late period or a chemical pregnancy.

You're right to point out that many take issue with the fact that some embryos may not be used at the end. Weirdly, people always seem to have the most bad faith takes on couples doing IVF - because they've probably been listening to lots of anti-choice propaganda that portrays them as spoiled and choosy, rather than y'know, people with a reproductive disability using medical help to overcome their conditions. They paint these couples as entitled, wanting "perfect" children, willing to discard all their poor babies in ruthless pursuit of designer eugenic kids. But most IVF parents aren't Elon Musk wannabes. IVF often takes 3 or 4 cycles on average before you get a viable pregnancy, and most couples use every single embryo - and then need to retrieve eggs more than once. IVF can be enormously taxing on the gestating parent's body. It can take a long time - we're talking multiple months sometimes to complete one attempt at implanting an embryo. It can be ruinously expensive and hard to navigate around your job. People aren't just doing it for the fun of it but because they've examined their options with a highly trained clinician and have decided that this is the path for them.

Most 'unused' embryos are usually dying or have serious genetic abnormalities that will almost certainly result in them failing (ie lead to a miscarriage or stillbirth) - so not implanting these saves the heartbreak down the line. There are also ways around wasting embryos - couples can choose to implant every one individually regardless of how poorly that embryo is doing. Some religious couples choose to transfer "spare" ones at the end, at a part of the cycle where they are unlikely to implant, but that way it's left in the Lord's hands. Others choose to donate their embryos to others.

I find that religious objectors talk about unused embryos as if there are millions of them out there (rather like they imagine there are millions of kids needing adoption, like unwanted puppies and kittens in shelters, when there rally are not) - but every single couple I've seen talking about IVF (and I've seen many) talk about how few embryos they have, and how desperate they are for one of them to stick, because they aren't sure if they can afford to have treatment to make more. The vast majority of couples simply aren't left with a ton of unused embryos - and many couples who don't manage to conceive choose to end their journey after using their last embryo.

I still do not understand why pro-life people are anti-IVF, like correct me if I am wrong but that shit is the opposite of an abortion. What the fuck could possibly be the problem with a medical treatment that makes people have more kids. Do you want people to have kids or not?? Genuinely like I can at least follow the thought process that someone who is anti-abortion justifies their bullshit with even if I wholeheartedly disagree on every point, but despite twisting my brain for hours I do not understand how you go from "killing babies and birth control is wrong -> but also having kids in a slightly different way is also wrong" like??? What are you even talking about????

[chemicalarospec]

why did That Physics Girl and a science-y friend of mine like an instagram reel claiming ACUPUNCTURE helps FERTILITY. Like ok ya'll know i do not believe in anything superstitious but I do accept how acupuncture improving pain may theoretically work due to nerves. But of all things FERTILITY?? that has to be one of the most nonsensical claims you could make about acupuncture.

[liberalsarecool]

Pro-choice is about so many things other than abortion that you should keep your nose out of.

[figmentforms]

Part 248 of  “A Tale of Two Rulers” (May 1, 2024)

A month late, but done! Thank you all so much for your patience. ^_^'

I got unexpectedly delayed by a wonderful surprise! After all the surgeries and ivf, my husband and i got extremely lucky. Our embryo lived and will be born around late fall/early winter! I'm just as surprised as I am thrilled!

 i'm also apparently one of those pregnant people who gets very, very, VERY sick in the first trimester. This was the hardest update i've done in ages just because it's very hard to think clearly and move one's hands precisely when you're constantly fighting off vomiting and unexpectedly falling asleep all the time. I was nervous to say anything at first because i wasn't sure if the baby would live, but it's been several weeks and so far he seems very strong so I think it's ok to give word of his existence (I'm so proud of my lil' one! Fight! Fight! Fight, Lil' Dude! <3).

----

★ Webtoon-  https://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/a-tale-of-two-rulers/list?title_no=292453 ★ - I’m still building up this archive.

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[mysharona1987]

[animentality]

[reasonsforhope]

"In short: Thailand's Senate has approved a bill legalising same sex marriage in the South-East Asian country.

It will afford same-sex couples practical benefits such as being able to have children through IVF and make emergency medical decisions for their spouse.

What's next? The first weddings may take place later this year, 120 days after the law is announced in the Royal Gazette.

Thailand has become the first nation in South-East Asia to legalise same sex marriage, with the country's Senate approving the landmark bill this afternoon.

The legislation was expected to pass after it cleared the country's House of Representatives in a near-unanimous vote in March.

Despite Thailand's bustling gay bars and prominent transgender community making it a mecca for LGBTQ+ tourists, until now local same-sex couples there have been unable to marry.

The law will take effect 120 days after its announcement in the Royal Gazette, so the first same sex weddings may take place later this year.

Couples who have been waiting years have hailed the move as a historic moment that will afford them rights only reserved for spouses.

A Lifechanging Law

Photos of Anticha and Worawan [including the article picture], dressed in floor-length white gowns and trailed by rainbow flags, getting married at Bangkok's first Pride Festival two years ago went viral, but they are still not legally married.

Now they will be able to change that, and Anticha Sangchai is elated.

"This will change my life and change many Thai people's lives, especially in the LGBT community," she said.

"It is a historical moment and I really want to join with my community to celebrate this moment.

"I want to send a message to the world that Thailand has changed. Even though there are still many issues, this is a big step for us." ...

There were an estimated 3.7 million LGBT people in Thailand in 2022, according to LGBT Capital, a private company which models economic data pertaining to the community around the world.

For the young couple from Bangkok, being able to marry also has very real practical implications.

If they want to have children through IVF, Ms Sangchai says they will need a marriage certificate first.

"I am quite concerned about the time because we are getting older every day, and the older you get the more difficult it is to have a healthy pregnancy," she said.

"So we've been really wanting this law to pass as soon as possible."

Cabaret performer Jena is excited Thailand's laws are finally catching up with the nation's image...

She too had worried about the practical implications of being unable to marry.

"For example, if myself or my partner had to go to hospital or there was an accident that needs consent for an emergency operation, without a marriage certificate we couldn't sign it," she said.

She now wants the government to move forward with a law to allow transgender people to amend their gender on official documents." ...

An Economic Boost?

Thailand has long been famous for LGBTQ tourism and there are now hopes this new law could allow the country to cash in on the aging members of the community.

Chaiwat Songsiriphan, who runs a health clinic for people in the LGBTQ community, said laws preventing same sex marriage were the last barrier holding the country back from becoming a gay retirement hub.

[Note: They do not just mean for rich westerners; Thailand as a gay retirement hub would probably appeal most to and definitely benefit LGBTQ people from throughout Asia.]

"Thailand has an LGBTQ-friendly environment since Thai culture is quite flexible," he said.

"One of my foreigner friends, a gay friend, told me that when he's in his country he has to pretend to be straight … but when he comes to Bangkok he said you can be as gay as you want.

"When we talk about retirement or a long-term stay for the rest of their lives, what people need is … food, good healthcare services, transportation, homes.

"I think Thailand has it all at a very affordable price."

He said it could help give the country a desperately needed economic boost.

"This will have a lot of benefits for Thailand's economy because when we talk about retirement it's people literally bringing all the money they have earned for the rest of their working lives to spend and invest here," he said.

He said he, like the rest of the community, was thrilled by the news.

"It's not about a privilege, it's just equality," he said.

"We are we also humans, so we should be able to marry the one we love.""

-via ABC Australia, June 18, 2024

[mxjackparker]

Reproductive freedom needs to include enabling people who want to have children to have them just the same as enabling people who don't want them to not have them. We need abortion on demand and IVF and IUI on demand.

[cheerfullycatholic]

[yellowtribe]

Very rough day, ready to get this medication stage over.

[figmentforms-the-human]

Going in soon !

[liberalsarecool]

IVF will end in Alabama.

Who knows if same sex couples were the target, but this is a very hurtful law.

Conservatives want to control every aspect: sex, marriage, reproduction, birth control, and health care.

You have no private life. Republican government is in your bedroom and bathroom.

[figmentforms]

Part 247 of  “A Tale of Two Rulers” (Jan 24, 2024)

I managed to finish something!!! ᕙ(⊙ᴗ⊙')ᕗ

Thank yo all so much for your usual patience and kindness! Next update will be in about two months. Hopefully sooner.

I won't be able to go do conventions for a while since getting sick right now would be very very very bad timing with my medical situation, so I took on a big commission and a kickstarter to supplement my income a bit, so that will slow me down. If you happen to like Mothman or/or ita bags, you may like the upcoming KS. I will make a post when it's ready, but I promise I won't spam about it.

(Also, comic will be looking a little different like this from now on because my old set up broke and i had to switch to another one. ^_^')

★ Webtoon-  https://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/a-tale-of-two-rulers/list?title_no=292453 ★ - I’m still building up this archive.

★Patreon- https://www.patreon.com/LorIllustration ★

★Store - www.etsy.com/shop/FigmentForms

for those that wonder how the medical stuff is going, I'll put that below the cut so anyone who doesn't want to see it can skip it easier:

Yay for not having cancer! A nice relief there! I'm now taking the various medications required to start my first embryo transfer. I'm really excited but also nervous. It will happen in just a few weeks and i'm really praying that the lil' guy lives and gets to be born. lol, now to enjoy the impossible task of trying to NOT be STRESSED as HARD AS I CAN.

[mysharona1987]

But how many problems does this man have?