#like am i being delusional??!??? he’s literally not written as attracted to women?!?!?!?? why do they make such a point of it

[sammygender]

if zuko isn’t meant to be gay then why do they write him. like that

[deadass-pool]

october 31, 2022 - halloween pms

oh boy oh boy DO I HAVE A STORY TO TELL

so in the past 3 months, i got a job, met new people, life kinda sucks, i met a boy, i also met another boy, i met more boys, went to a kpop music festival, met another boy, jesus fucking christ, please check in on my temper because my patience was tested.

aside from the clients that i have to deal with during my work hours in the morning hours to afternoon, i was also dealing with MEN and i dont know!!!! i havent been screwing around the dating scene in so long because i was so invested in other things such as being delusional with my celebrity crushes and college was sucking the life out of me but jesus christ, i kinda wished it stayed that way because now i got money problems (its a me problem) and boy problems (that i have to get rid ASAP)

anyways, i’m not gonna write about the 10 guys i talked to simultatnoeusly at once, the another 5 men whom all i met through stupid online dating apps, WHAT im gonna tell you is that i ended up forming a whatever situationship with a guy that i used to go to the same elementary school with. WHICH WAS WEIRD BECAUSE I KNEW HIM SINCE FOREVER LIKE IN 1ST GRADE IMAGINE HAVING HIM SEE YOUR TIDDIES NOW AT AGE 22 LIKE, THATS SO WEIRD WHO FUCKING KNEW RIGHT 

anyways, yeah based on the last paragraph that i have written, if it isn’t obvious enough for you, yes it was very sexual (and very confusing at times) and ITS SOMETIMES WEIRD because i cant stop picturing him as some random 6th grader that i walk past by numerous times when i was in 5th grade and idk idk its so fucking crazy like, THATS CRAZY RIGHT?? WHO KNEW LMFAO

anyways yea we would call each other at night, it was nothing serious, obviously. out of everyone he was my favorite since there was a common ground and experience we share so i felt more comfortable with him than the rest of the guys that i talked to. so i trusted him enough with photos that i took and hes literally the only guy i ever sent those photos to (and hes gonna get beat up by me if anything happens GOD FORBID ANYTHING HAPPENS) 

he would send good morning texts bla bla bla, it was a one month short lived experience until i decided to just be distant or whatever because hes literally any other guys. god, we were evn supposed to go on a date but it didnt happen. the point is, just because you knew him since forever does not mean he’s going to be different. i have met way too many of the same people like him, AND LIKE ME, to keep my guard up anyway.

anyways, the point is i can feel the void in me getting alot more worse. the more i entertain these men, even women (i cant for the life of god play with women even when im attracted to them i just CANT) the more i feel like this is all i ever am worth of.

i always dreamed about being cherished, being taken care of, being seen, being listened to, and just being loved and that’s because of the numerous love songs that i heard, movies that i watched and books i read, but why does it feel like i will never be worth of any of those things?

i think the dating scene of today made it worse. i think that’s why i can’t keep on settling for stuff like this anymore. i am not embarrassed to admit that i believe that i deserve being treated with respect and live the fluffy romantic corny shit you see in dramas. i truly want that lol

i just feel like i wasted so much time on spending to get to know these people, even when im not looking for anything serious, time is still a cost to even acknowledge their existence. i just feel like absolute shit over it.

idk maybe im just pmsing and its a halloween and i literally have nothing much better to do (i am literally supposed to go on errands but i ended up crying over the remaining balance in my bank account) but idk idk

and also i cut off my ties with this guy, not fully, just distanced myself. if he tries to reach out, then i’ll let him in. there’s nothing going on anyway and he’s a manwhore lol. idk im just upset over everything rn idk why im typing this maybe its because its eating me alive. did u guys know that i used to have such a huuuuuge crush on him until he went for the sexual part in our relationship or whatever we have and now i could not respect him at all lmfao

anyways, thats it ill tell more on the careeer part soon, im working on something. see if this one works out. we’ll see.

[sokkagatekeeper]

mx sokkagatekeeper i need your help

my best friends doesn’t really see zuko gay and i don’t know how to analyse this to her (we often analyse text and share opinions) because i’m not good with words. i know his homosexuality is in the text and i’ve always seen him as gay so to me it’s actually canon

i don’t want to impose my opinion but i don’t seem to explain it like the topic deserves.

pls help me

i apologize for the delay on answering this ask!! i wanted to gather the most analysis i could in one post (and also had to eventually come to terms with the fact that i can’t gather literally all the evidence in one post; there is simply too much) since ppl are always like “where’s the essay?” well here. here is the essay, and you (your friend?) gave me the perfect excuse to do so without seeming more obnoxious than usual. so! i wrote a little thing that didn’t go as in-depth as it could go but is clear enough here, and i also dance a little around the subject of zuko and his problem with gender expectations here. i will probably copy-paste the entire paragraph that’s relevant to this analysis later so you don’t have to read it but. it’s a good post imo. anyway!!

before i begin i just want to say that (despite my url) this is not to #gatekeep or whatever. but tumblr does love to talk about how no atla character's sexuality is confirmed, and how claiming that zuko is bisexual or any other variation is not homophobic, and how zuko was written as being attracted to women on-screen. and they are right, in a way; reading zuko as bisexual is not homophobic... but merely, in my opinion, incorrect. and, on the flip side, making an analysis on why zuko is gay is also not inherently biphobic. and one can assume that i'm unlikely to make a biphobic analysis since i am. a bisexual person.

another note: i don’t think anybody who reads zuko as gay is delusional enough to genuinely believe the creators intended to code him as queer, when the author’s interpretation contradicts and/or takes away from the quality of the text, authorial intent is not that relevant to the best possible reading of it. in my opinion of course!

now. to make a queer reading of a character (and i mean reading of the text, which is not the same as a headcanon) one may take into account: what the themes the character portrays are; what their character arc is about; allegories; character development; struggles; stakes and expectations from the society they live in; as well as other pieces of dialogue or details and allegories that are reminiscent of the queer experience. in this post, i will try to gather a bunch of all these aspects of the narratives, themes, etc etc in an attempt to open the anon's friend's eyes to the revelation that is the gay zuko agenda.

also, like with all interpretations, this is not exactly me trying to “prove” that zuko is gay. he isn't gay; he's fictional. rather, i am explaining why i find this interpretation of his sexuality to be far more compelling than any other.

zuko’s coming out arc.

zuko’s arc has several layers. the two main that i can pinpoint are him unlearning the fire nation's imperialist values, and learning that the abuse he suffered was just that, abuse. that it was wrong. but as is often seen in the themes atla presents, what often presents to be two different things have an aspect of unity, that they depend on each other in order to exist. these two aspects of zuko’s redemption accompany each other throughout. the reason why zuko (and azula) was abused in the first place is because of the fire nation’s imperialism; the degree of the abuse zuko suffered and the things he was punished for are a direct effect of the fire nation’s patriarchal society and its constrictions regarding gender. ozai wasn't just any evil father, he was the embodiment of the entire fire nation and its fucked-up values.

zuko is kicked out of his home, mostly for being compassionate, and for letting his compassion take charge of him rather than respecting the piece of etiquette that he was not allowed to speak in the war room. the fire nation is known to be against what it deems as weak, which happens to be anything that has to do with empathy and compassion, sensitivity and gentleness—anything that fits their idea of femininity. zuko is known to present these qualities the fire nation perceives as feminine and weak (especially in comparison to azula), and his father has little trouble sending him away in order to favor his stronger, smarter, ruthless, masculine, “flawless” daughter. zuko is taken by his uncle whom his father is ashamed of, spending years chasing the unattainable idea of finding the avatar and regaining his honor, while he develops a tendency to overperform aggressiveness (zuko’s trauma in itself makes him defensive, not inherently aggressive), and trying to suppress every possible weakness he may have to the rest of the world and himself.

so, in that sense, zuko's redemption arc is not just about him going from bad to good, but it is also about overcoming, unlearning, and un-internalizing homophobia (& misogyny) and all the expectations and constraints that surround masculinity. it's about achieving liberation from his homophobic abusive homelife and finding acceptance in a group of people who accept him for what he is (with his compassion and kindness and emotional expressiveness... and also for being gay). it's about achieving also self-realization and forgiveness. all of this reads as a coming-out narrative thru unintentional allegories all around. zuko's character arc is not explicitly about being gay, but its themes make it so that it can be read as a queer story, and in my opinion, it achieves a greater emotional impact if it is read as such.

zuko’s gender problems. (may or may not copied this from one of the posts i’ve made before lol i just wanted to have it all in one place <3 ok keep reading now)

despite all the suffering and abuse he endured, zuko grew up shaped by the privileges surrounding royalty and the upper class in general. his arc is about humbling him and understand the value in the lives of the poor and marginalized as much as it is about his very own self-realization and asserting he was wronged and treated unfairly by his family over and over. zuko comes from a place of privilege, but he is still highly empathetic and has a certain ease at unlearning his privilege (more ease than azula at least) once he is exposed to the world in its entirety rather than the blatant lies that were presented to him by the fire nation that he had no way of disproving. zuko is compassionate and empathetic despite being stubborn as hell because while growing up in privilege he still experienced certain marginalizations because of his blatant learning disabilities, and his gender presentation.

the fire nation’s society is ruled by militarism, imperialism, and patriarchy. it values what are considered masculine traits and qualities (leadership, cold-thinking, self-control yet ruthlessness, strategy, emotional suppressing) above humanity, identity, personhood and femininity. the fact that the actual societies in real life that inspired the fire nation may not hold the same values is very likely, since this is a very western perspective, but this is what appears in the text, and the way it’s meant to be read.

so shown as a child and heavily hinted at throughout the show, zuko is deeply, loudly feminine in a way that other people can blatantly see and judge him based on it. his self-realization involves breaking free of this pressure he has on his back to be “more of a man” than his personality allows him to. he overperforms a lot of his aggressiveness – the part of it that isn’t born out of his rage, that is – and he lets his anger flow. he is certainly masculine in a fair amount of aspects, but many of his core traits are (in western society, yes, and within the show) associated with femininity, such as emotional expressiveness, empathy and compassion, gentleness, and kindness. femininity is perceived as weak, and zuko is therefore perceived as weak for displaying these traits from an early age and especially in contrast to azula, who by contrast displays many of the “masculine” traits mentioned above (albeit the feminine qualities she chooses to display is what makes her perfectionism — she can be feminine, but in a masculine way, it’s messy and it leads her to a mental breakdown we all know this part).

zuko doesn’t fit at all into the ideal of cold, detached version of masculinity that the fire nation preaches, which is what deteriorated his self-esteem and drove him to overperform his traditionally masculine traits out of desperation such as his commanding stance or getting really good at fighting people, or even as small as being stiff as hell when he wants to show vulnerability or show affection even towards his uncle. he did all of this in order to try and fit better into the mold of the man people told him he should be. but no matter how hard zuko worked to repress that core, fundamental part of himself over the course of the series, he was never able to stick to a cold, ruthless, detached mindset, or stick to the constrictions of masculinity like he is expected to as a prince and as a man. he’s always intentionally and unintentionally working towards being better, and struggles to suppress the softer parts of him constantly.

zuko’s relationship with mai (also known as ‘mai is a lesbian’).

it is no secret that zuko and mai’s relationship is a dysfunctional one. on the surface this is because of zuko’s inability (or lack of will, who’s to say) to understand mai as a person with feelings and thoughts and a life rather than a girlfriend. and while this is true, it is also true that mai was not able to be the person zuko needed at that particular moment in his life, as a girlfriend, friend or otherwise. they both feel trapped, restricted, and misunderstood by the respective expectations placed on them, by their families and the structure of the systematic power they later choose to go against, and the threats that will follow through if they don’t fulfill these expectations. they also project the worst parts of their respective struggles with the power structure of society on each other. their relationship throughout book three rings very true and up until they get back together for some reason.

regarding zuko’s character specifically, his inability to see mai as anything other than “girlfriend” rather than a person comes from the prospect of the term “girlfriend” is part of the oppression he faces back at the fire nation, rather than mai being a constricting and oppressive person herself (which she is not). their relationship to me reads very much like a lavender marriage, as this post very well puts it.

other miscellaneous gay shit <3

there are a lot of little gay moments that zuko has throughout the show. for example, he never cares when pretty girls are attracted to him or flirting with him, including jin and ty lee. his reaction to learning that sokka has a girlfriend is also. interesting. and of course, his reaction to being set up with mai when they were children is to scream “girls are crazy!”. hmm

the blue spirit is a gay thing like, thematically.

so uh. qed. zuko gay!

my (nour) personal favorite Zuko Moment is in the firebending masters when he stands and watches the rainbow fire surround him and he says, very softly and with feeling, ‘i understand’ which is where our beloved i understand tag comes from. as this post very well explains its significance, “(...) zuko has lived his whole life associating firebending with rage and power and violence, so when he lets go of rage and power and violence, he loses his ability to firebend. and this cannot be separated from the fire nation's (and therefore zuko's) views on masculinity; in the fire nation, fire bending is masculinity is aggression, and part of why zuko cared so much about being a powerful firebender is to prove that he was enough of a man. so, learning the sun warriors' form of firebending, which is based in warmth and love, also allows zuko (who is NOT STRAIGHT) to redefine his masculinity. (plus...... yknow.... the fire is rainbow..........)”

[blackgirlsuperherorants]

With more articulation, I'm ready to talk about why the push for Lokius simply bothers me, and this can be said for other m/m or w/w ships that fans push to be canon so hard just because they ship it.

It's the framing. The framing that if Marvel doesn't do it (or whatever the brand is), it's because homophobia, and if other fans don't like it/ship it, it's because homophobia (even if they ship other queer ships and are queer themselves.) And the biggest problem with that is that it overshadows the REAL issue of lack of queer representation on screen in mainstream nerd media, especially from big things under the Disney umbrella (Marvel and Lucasfilm/Star Wars, especially.)

It makes it bad that your ship isn't canon instead of bad that there haven't been any queer romances on screen in the MCU.

And like, as a writer myself, I find myself dissecting the stories of other media all the time. I can watch an MCU movie or series and pretty much assess what direction the story is going in by the narrative points they're hitting. I knew Sylki was basically gonna happen (even if just a kiss) because narratively, that's what the show was doing as soon as they had that "what is love" conversation on Lamentis-1. It didn't mean I liked it. But I knew it was happening.

Similarly, there's no romantic undertones to Loki and Mobius. None. For Marvel to make them a couple, it would mean they'd be doing it simply because the two present as men and it would make stans happy. And while there's something to be said for fan service, it would be annoying to watch them cram two guys together who aren't romantic in the slightest. I'd much rather see Loki meet some guy and have the same type of undertones they were giving to Sylvie and form a real bond to where the kiss feels earned and warranted. Not just put him with the nearest man because "he gay lol."

And how you guys are claiming it's being queer that makes you want this is beyond me. It's not being queer that makes you want this. I don't want queer characters that fuck everyone of whatever gender(s) they're attracted to even when it doesn't make sense for them to. I want real love stories. I mean, yeah, sometimes we can have a slut character, because that's fun, too, but that's not even what y'all think Lokius is. You seem to want them to be in love. But why? Because he's the first friend Loki made that isn't through Thor?

I hate that, too, because I hate this idea that queer people cannot have friends of their same gender without wanting to fuck them. IDK how y'all are, maybe y'all are like that, but I almost never have wanted to fuck any of my friends. The only few exceptions have been when I tried to befriend someone I had a crush on (in which case, usually the friendship can't work, really, because I have a crush on them.) I also think it's okay if you can have casual sex with friends, or if you have a friendship that develops into romance, but Jesus, do you people not have friends that you don't want to fuck? I am bi, maybe more pan (gender kind of doesn't matter to me, I guess) and I'm friends with people of all kinds of gender identities and like... I love them as people, which is why they're my friends, but I DO NOT want to fuck them. Especially my closest friend. I talked about her, before, here, but she's like my sister. The thought of fucking her is gross, to me. Not because she's gross, but because it feels incestuous.

Loki shouldn't want to fuck Mobius just because they developed a friendship. And that's very much how it's written on the series. They almost dislike each other (or Mobius is at least indifferent to Loki) and then they become friends.

That's not to mention the power dynamic that exists, there. And I know some of y'all are subs, but yeah, it's a bit gross to imply a sexual relationship with Loki's captor.

But on to Sylki. It sucks that I feel like most of y'all hate Sylki because Sylvie is a girl, and not just because it's bad in other ways. Like, the reasons Sylki is bad have less to do with "it should have been Mobius" and more to do with it being a lazy 1980s action movie plot that should have never happened. I'm not as creeped out by the selfcest (as many of you wouldn't have been if she was a he, I'm almost positive), but what's bad about it is that they couldn't have a strong female lead character without her being the love interest of the main guy. She didn't need to be, especially because she was a Loki variant, anyway. There was no need for it to have romantic undertones, and there was no need for them to kiss. It was sexist more than it was homophobic (and I can't help feeling like y'all are kind of being biphobic in this case. Maybe I'll talk about that, later, but yeah.) It was sexist bullshit. And there's valid criticism that Sylvie is underdeveloped. She's just angry and something for Loki to project affection onto.

I was also hoping they'd do a "found family" type of thing with Sylvie and Loki and let her be like the sister he never knew he needed, but no, they had to go trope and make her the love interest. It was lazy and bad and basically went "If Loki girl, main Loki want bone!"

Basically, having the main character fall for a character just because of their proximity and gender is bad and I hate it (and it would have been bad with Mobius, too, but yeah.)

Both the Mobius and the Sylvie thing also feel kind of racist, to me, because the show has prominent Black women who aren't even presented as desirable to Loki. And y'all, of course, ship him with anyone but the Women of Color. Y'all can pull true love with Mobius out of your ass, but he couldn't possibly fall for the Black women. lol.

Anyway. Not every show needs ships, and this show shouldn't have had any. I hate it. It's bad.

I guess on the biphobia front, I have heard some takes that it's not biphobic because Loki being queer in the MCU which hasn't shown any queer relationships, and Loki being the first openly queer character means they shouldn't have shown him with a woman presenting character. Which, I guess I get where you're coming from... but I have also been in fandoms for a long time and I see mostly girls saying this shit, which is what leads me to feel like it's simply jealousy. It happens all the time when a long-beloved single male character/celebrity suddenly starts dating a woman. Everyone hates it. And like, we haven't seen Loki be with ANYONE in the MCU, because mostly he's been doing villainy and his dating life hasn't been relevant. If the demigod says he's bi, he can kiss a woman. Especially a woman version of himself. Like I said, I hate it for other reasons, but pretending it's because he should have kissed Mobius is utterly delusional. He probably shouldn't have kissed anyone. Not in this series. There was no reason for any canon romance, especially because the show has a season 2 and we'll have time to see Loki develop earned, deserved romance with someone.

I'd much rather see them create a character just to be his boyfriend than have y'all push Marvel into making Lokius canon, which is a nonsense ship that only happened because Mobius is the only prominent male-presenting character before we meet the other Lokis.

My sincere wish is for people to remember that their ships are just ships and to enjoy them without getting all self-righteous about it. I TOLD y'all that Lokius wasn't gonna be canon like 4 episodes back, and here y'all are acting shocked and like Marvel took something from you. NOBODY expected y'all to ship Lokius. It's not even queerbait.

You can make clear arguments as to why Sambucky was queerbait. It's there in undertones in the actual series.

You cannot watch Loki and tell me you thought it was queerbait, unless you think men can't have conversations or hug goodbye without being romantically involved. Which means, in my opinion, that you need to learn about healthy masculinity.

Again, this is not a defense of Marvel. They DO need to let characters be queer, for real, and not just by saying " A bit of both". Like, let Loki be queer. Let Deadpool be queer. Let these queer characters be queer on screen. Yes.

But please stop making it about your ship. I'd rather see a flashback of Loki dating a guy and see him kiss someone he loved back on Asgard than watch y'all force Lokius. Because my queer rep is not about your crackship. It really isn't. And the fact that y'all keep calling us homophobic for not liking your ship REALLY needs to be addressed.

Like, when will y'all stop? I got on Stucky shippers about this shit in the past. All of us gay as hell, too, we just don't like YOUR ship. A lot of us like other queer ships. A lot of us like queer ships in other fandoms, too, and even have queer OCs. YOUR ship just ain't it. Stop forcing it. Literally, most of the ship wars between MCU fans have been queer ship vs queer ship, not really queer ship vs straight ship. Like, the number one Stucky rival ship was Stony. Not Steggy. People are not homophobic for not wanting your ship.

Sometimes it's because they ship something else.

And sometimes, like me, it's because they want something to make sense narratively and not happen for the sake of it happening. It's always better writing to have a character meetcute a new love interest than to magically turn a platonic friendship into a romantic relationship. Like, even when the characters are straight. Like, when Moesha dated Hakeem. It was just weird, even if he was kind of a great boyfriend. He was just supposed to be her friend, and people didn't really like it because it didn't fit narratively.

And that's why ships for the most part should be left to fanfiction, with the exception of a few where fans are right to call out the writers for not making it canon because it's clearly bait (like what happened to Destiel shippers. To see Lokius shippers compare themselves to THAT was so ridiculous. Destiel shippers had a decade of evidence only to be let down by a criminally unfair ending. Lokius shippers saw two men have a deep conversation once and lost their minds.)

Anyway, I'm not saying don't ship Lokius. I don't even hate it, really. I just think it obviously shouldn't be canon, and fans pretending like they were robbed of it is ridiculous. Literally, Ao3 exists for this reason. I will never see Steve fuck Sam Wilson, so I wrote it into my fanfic. I am not mad that they didn't actually date in the main MCU storyline.