#like yeah that's ovid's version

[nysus-temple]

Apollo & Dionysus [Part 1]

MAN. not sure if i know what i'm doing, they're very complicated and this won't be my only essay about them. But I've been delaying this essay for way too long, to a point in which I was close to crying about it.

Hope you enjoy, in any case, how i give you all the connections, both good and bad, of my favourite god figures from the Greek Folklore.

1. Karneia [Καρνεῖα].

One of Dionysus' main characteristics is how he's depicted with horns. It's part of his identity as a god, it's horns what (according to the Orphic hymns) made him look like Persephone's son. you can't take away his horns and pretend he's still Dionysus. Euripides knew that well.

Apollo, on the other hand, not many are aware that he sometimes was represented with horns, as well ! This festival, held mainly in Sparta, was to honor Apollo (and a couple of other gods but, he was the star of the show).

The reasons for why this festival was held vary; like Pausanias saying it was to calm him down so he wouldn't send a plague.

But, you see, the main reason this festival is mentioned here: the Spartans would stop any military activity to honor a horned Apollo, he resembled Dionysus during that time. And not only that, but he also was related with vines during it, and that's Dionysus sacred plant. Just like the laurel (or bay, i think it's called in English) is the sacred tree of Apollo.

Seeing Apollo with that plant, and harvesting grapes while having horns, has a strong conection to what Dionysus is.

2. Delphi's Oracle.

It's still Apollo's Oracle, wether Dionysus kept it while he was gone at Hyperborea or not. He killed Python, Gaia's big-ass snake, in order to get it.

But.

While Apollo had to leave during the winter time to go to Hyperborea, it was Dionysus OF ALL GODS the one who kept Delphi, and thus, his festivals were celebrated there.

On one side of the main temple, you could see Apollo with his twin sister, Artemis, and his mother, Leto.

And on the other side, it was Dionysus.

Dionysus wasn't related to prophecies, at all. Maenads did shenanigans during the time Apollo wasn't there.

But it's, you know... Interesting, that Apollo's most important oracle was kept by Dionysus during the time that he wasn't there.

With this, you should think "then, they're in good terms, right?" Yeah, well, they're supposed to be, there's nothing stating that they have a bad relationship, it's the other way around, actually !

But the next point... Is gonna leave us all confused.

3. Orpheus.

Or, as i like to call it:

And my favourite part of this essay, gotta say !

Orpheus brought many cults to the Greeks, according to Pausanias. Like the Eleusinian Demeter one, for example. And not to forget, Orphism gets his name from him, as well as the Orphic Hymns, obviously.

But, apparently, besides doing all that, at the end of his life, he claimed to not care about any gods, not even Dionysus, the main figure of Orphism, that weren't Apollo.

And his death was explained in a lost play of Aeschylus, one that two different writers describe; Eratosthenes and Pausanias, so pick your favourite:

P: 1. the maeneads saw Orpheus refusing to worship Dionysus, and killed him.

E: 2. Or, the interesting one: Dionysus saw that Orpheus devoted himself to Apollo and Apollo only, and got... Jealous. Jealous of his devotion to Apollo.

He was the one who started Orphism, the one who wrote many hymns for him. Seeing him being devoted to someone else than him apparently wasn't a good move. In this version he sent the maeneads to kill him, they didn't go for their own will, which makes it more peculiar.

I'm not writting down Ovid's version because it doesn't fucking count.

Plato also says some odd thingy, that "the gods imposed on Orpheus the punishment of dying at the hands of women for not having had the courage to die for love like Alcestis, daughter of Pelias, who had died in the place of her husband Admetus." ... Which, yeah, sure, I guess, whatever you say, buddy. We have to keep in mind Plato's texts are more related to philosophy than anything.

People always say it's Apollo the one who was envious of Dionysus' talents and parties, (for... some reason i guess) specially knowing how he had two of his muses related to him (tragedy and comedy) due to Dionysus being, after all, the god of theatre.

But, surprise ! It was the other way around. Dionysus was jealous of Orpheus' devotion to Apollo. "If you won't devote yourself to me, you won't devote yourself to anyone".

And, well, either because the sources didn't survive or because he wasn't considered his son in these versions, Apollo didn't do anything. In fact, we never see him doing anything towards Dionysus.

So, what now, Nysus? What was their relationship exactly, after all of this?

It's... Complicated !! Okay !!! This needs more research from my part, plus we all should keep in mind that, while all the authors mentioned here were Greek, they were different guys. You always need to keep in mind the place, person, era... All of that, before starting to judge how a dynamic between two gods work.

( If you enjoy my badly-written posts, please consider buying me a kofi ! You're not forced to, though, but please, reblog this post at least if you are gonna leave a like ! 💕 That's what will motivate me to keep working on my essays )

[my-name-is-apollo]

Honestly I'm getting so annoyed by the way Ares is perceived recently. He is such an interesting and tragic god but half of the community see him as a hot headed misogynist (wrong) and the other half paint him as a raging feminist (also wrong). It's like Hades all over again. While he's definitely far from being a misogynist, where is "Ares the protector of women" coming from? Does he protect any women other than his daughters? "Feasted upon by women" doesn't mean much when he also had a festival where women were prohibited. Whenever you bring up Rhea Silvia suddenly "it's Roman not Greek!" but they don't make that distinction for other gods (not to mention, Rhea Silvia is mentioned by Greek authors too + that kind of distinction is not ideal. Even the Greeks syncretised their gods with Roman gods) like why can't we just reach a middle ground with neither demonising him nor putting him on a pedestal.

This is like the 5th ask I'm getting about Ares so i'mma just answer this lol

I don't get enough Ares posts on my feed to begin with. The ones I do are mostly fine, just appreciating him. But yeah there have occassionally been ones that made me go 🤨 and I feel you with the way they try to like, completely alienate the Roman myths like that wouldn't make things even more chaotic. I see this happen with Medusa - Poseidon too. Like sure, it sucks that people are so fixated on Ovid's version, but the argument must be "Ovid's poem is not the only version of Medusa's tale" and not "It's Roman and it's by Ovid so it's not valid". Trust me, I have a big preference for Greek versions over the Roman ones, but there are also times I prefer the Roman versions (and some tales, like Eros and Psyche, survive only in the works of Roman authors). Every person will have preferences but it doesn't change the fact that the Greek and Roman gods were syncretised, and even some of the later Greek authors like Plutarch do not distinguish between Greek deities and their Roman counterparts.

And yeah, I honestly don't get where the feminist Ares who is the protector of women is coming from. I'm a firm believer that applying that label (feminist) to any god is an unfitting thing to do. But spreading misinformation for the sake of putting their favorite god on a pedestal is sadly not exclusive to Ares and Hades fans (but Hades fans have been the loudest, most annoying at it). I've seen it being done by the fans of all the other Olympian gods too. (Remember when there was a wave of "Dionysus is the least problematic god?" Yeah...) I can definitely understand the frustration. But Ares appreciation has so far not been too unbearable for me. In the corner of my mind I'm glad he gets to shine after all the unnecessary hate he got :3 but yes I too wish people realise he doesn't have to be the beacon of morality to be liked and appreciated.

[sarafangirlart]

While I’m iffy on retellings putting a positive spin on Ovid’s version of Medusa and Athena, I do admit to liking versions where Arachne’s transformation is portrayed as a blessing or gift, partly because it does have some basis in the original text with Athena feeling pity for her after she tries to hang herself, and also because I think spiders are cool and wouldn’t necessarily see becoming one, especially as a weaver like Arachne, as a curse.

Yeah sanitizing Arachne’s myth makes way more sense than with Medusa, especially since Athena has also been a victim of patriarchal society, so having her be angry at Arachne for exposing her relative’s behavior only to then feel bad about it and realize that Arachne might have a point would be interesting.

[littlesparklight]

I really hate it when people call ancient pieces of work fanfiction usually because they don’t like it the biggest victim being Ovid’s work but I also seen it thrown at The Telegony, just because you don’t like what it that doesn’t mean it’s fanfiction

On the one hand, I didn't (and am not sure I still would necessarily always dislike it) really mind this, because sometimes it was made in order to push back on the conception of fanfic as just "bad" and not being able to be art.

On the other - no, various ancient texts, or not so ancient ones, aren't fanfic. They can't be, that isn't how it works. Fanfic is a rather specific thing, and it's not bad (or good) just in itself, but Dante's Inferno or the Aeneid or etc and so on, isn't fanfic. And so I can certainly understand those who are really aggravated when that statement is trotted out, for whatever reason.

And so we get to the third version of "such and so is just fanfic!!" statement, the one you bring up.

When "it's just fanfic" is meant as an insult, because whoever it is doesn't like the piece of work in question. It reveals what they think not just about whatever work it's about relative to whatever piece they do like, but about fanfic. (Yes, even if they write it themself.) Because they don't like it, it's bad, and it's, thus, fanfic of something they like better.

And it's honestly kind of fucking hilarious (in an embarrassing way) to go around claiming the Telegony is "fanfic" just because someone doesn't like it. (I don't like it either!) It might be the youngest (that seems to be the academic consensus, that it is the youngest/newest to be formed and composed) of the Epic Cycle's epics, but... that still makes it (very) old. And it is using older myths or similar, just as the other epics did, even if some of said material might be younger than what the other epics use - but we can't really know that for sure.

Odysseus has children by Kirke in the Theogony already. Local (Thesprotian, Kyrenaian) genealogies for ruling dynasties would not have sprung up at the second of poetic invention of the Telegony.

And I'd just like to say that one can't really use the fact that the Ancient Greek noble families considered themselves related to various mythical heroes as some sort of... indictment of these (invented, yes, but deeply important) relationships. They're part of the foundation and reason we have any Greek myth when it comes to heroes. You have to take it all.

But yeah, the point is, whether we like a particular account, lyric, poetic, prose, drama, what have you or not, going around insisting some particular text is "fanfic" is just deeply silly at best, and stupid at worst.

It's not, after all, about "ooc" or not (even if we certainly can think something resonates with us or the character and fits them better or not), that's not how this works.

[specialagentartemis]

ask meme since Pin-Lee was taken: the literal goddess Athena. throwing the apple of discord at you

Kat are you trying to get me smited :P

First impression

Age 10 or so: wow! Cool smart warrior lady! Also I love that she decides to stay unmarried forever for reasons I don’t know how to express!

Impression now

Age now: wow! Cool smart warrior lady! Also I love that she decides to stay unmarried forever for reasons I know Exactly how to express!

… although tempered a lot with more knowledge about Ancient Greece and different variants on the gods’ stories, the social context of when the different ones were written, and why. I’m actually more fascinated now with Athena’s portrayal as the goddess of merciful justice, as she is in the Oresteia; neither Apollo’s smug righteousness, nor the Furies’ screaming for vengeance and blood. However, a lot of these portrayals of wise, just, balanced, merciful Athena come from Athenian playwrights who were obviously biased towards their city’s patron, and against Apollo (who was associated with Sparta, the city Athens was at war with at the time). She could certainly be selfish in the way of the Bronze Age gods in the Bronze Age stories.

I’m also interested in her association with crafts, specifically women’s crafts. Crafts being recognized as taking the same kind of logic, planning, intelligence, and importance as war tactics. Athena spanning this masculine space of war and feminine space of craftworking.

And the ambivalence of her eternal virginity—Athena only able to have that position of power and respect she does because no man is allowed to dominate, master, and functionally own her, the way classical Greek views on gender hierarchy and sexism assumed was the natural way of men and women. Athena has to take on masculine characteristics to be powerful in this manner. As much as I wanna go hell yeah genderqueer aroace icon there’s also the fact that it’s heavily rooted in sexism. She’s a fascinating, complex, ambivalent figure.

Favorite moment

I’m very fond of the story where Athena was raised alongside Triton’s daughter Pallas, as sisters and friends. They both practiced the arts of war and would practice and spar together. Then, once, either they had a falling-out and the fighting became real; or they were sparring and ply-fighting, but either way, Zeus, afraid for his daughter and Meddling, distracted Pallas, and Athena accidentally killed her. Athena, heartbroken at the death of her friend, which she genuinely wasn’t trying to do!, built a statue in her honor and adopted her name “Pallas” in honor and memory.

Idea for a story

She’s Odysseus’s patron, and Telemachus’s mentor (ha), but as the goddess of weaving and tactics and cleverness… I would LOVE to see her interacting with Penelope more. The woman known for her cleverness, and her weaving skill, and for using weaving as a tactic in her cold war against her suitors. I would DESPERATELY love to see Athena and Penelope during the time period when Telemachus was growing up, or while he was off in Sparta and Pylos, and Penelope was holding down her palace and kingdom alone.

Unpopular opinion

Ovid’s renditions of the myths are fine. Yes even the one where Athena turned Arachne into a spider out of spite, and the one where Athena made Medusa a monster. They’re not the only versions or the version that your own mythic/literary tradition needs to draw on, but they’re compelling and interesting. They were written from a very specific cultural and political perspective, but that perspective is fascinating in its own right. It’s not Ovid’s fault that most of our knowledge of Greek literature comes from Athenians who are biased towards Athena and portray her as great.

Favorite relationship

I’m a simple normie, I like Athena lavishing attention on Odysseus as her champion during the war, a warrior after her own heart, and the way even when he pisses her off after the war and she withholds her help anymore she starts to feel kiiiiinda bad about it. And she strikes up a friendship/mentorship with Telemachus and starts advocating for him to the other gods again. Odysseus and his son as Athena’s… projects, supplicants, maybe even in the strange way of gods and men, friends.

Favorite headcanon

I think she is SO pleased that even though she lost the judgement of Paris, she won the war (not even the Trojan War, the war for the hearts and minds of the people. She is Everyone’s Favorite Greek Goddess now)

[mayadoesfandomstuff]

I do see that the series takes some of the themes from Ovid's work and as much as I do have a mixed opinion on it since his work wasn't necessarily supposed to be an official roman version of things but political criticism of the government as well as a way to trash the greeks, it does work well with the overall theme and narrative that Percy Jackson has built up with how gods are fallible and in fact had done a lot of wrong and them ignoring their kids is an awful thing and they should be better parents.

Like, yeah, I do have my own gripes with the usage of Ovid's Medusa rather than the original Greek one in the story, but it does work with the larger narrative of the series so it's not that big of a deal for me.

[renthony]

i want to chime in as another person- my mind was changed on NPD years ago but it was only because of like, real human people talking about their actual experiences that helped me realize it was not The Evil Disorder (TM) in the same way that I realized ASPD wasn't THe Evil Disorder (TM). I guess I was maybe more likely to realize something was up because i also hit a bunch of the diagnostic criteria for it but like, when literally all you hear is "narcissist just means someone is a self centered asshole" it's hard to realize that that's not actually what it is at all.

and they for real taught us that shit in school. we had a whole discussion about the myth of narcissus and how obviously that hurt ~everyone else~ more than narcissus, even though he literally starved to death and turned into a flower. it took me until i was like 17 and someone else went "hey thats kind of fucked up" before i was like oh yeah. that was probably not something he did for fun huh

idk where i'm going with this but i respect the hell out of you being willing to brave the internet goblins and be like "stop being an asshole about ppl with npd" because its gotta hurt way more when people are being an asshole about something you actually got. i made like one or two posts ages ago about the "narc abuse" ableist bullshit and i remember it being enough of a headache even when it completely and totally was not personal for me bc i do not have it

oh uh idk im sure you know this but for the people in the back sitting around, aspd is antisocial personality disorder and people with aspd are also not evil malicious serial killers in waiting or whatever the ~common interpretation~ is and people with aspd are just as capable of being good friends and normal ass people who don't run around cackling evilly or whatever and kicking puppies, just like anyone else. but buying into ableist mythology about people's diagnoses is absolutely going to cut you off from other regular people who are just living their lives and is also associated with higher rates of violence against other people :,) bigots kill

To be honest, a large chunk of the reason I get so vocal about NPD is because of how bad the ableism has wormed its way into my head. It's pretty much a daily occurrence that my housemates have to remind me that asking for help isn't manipulative and that I'm not being an evil little monster just for needing reassurance. Anti-cluster-B ableism curls up in your head and feeds on all your insecurities and struggles and it's so, so goddamn hard to deal with.

I can't ask for help getting out of bed on high pain days without getting paranoid that I've somehow manipulated my husband into being my reluctant servant. Doesn't matter how many times he reminds me that he's here because he loves me, and how helping me out of bed is an expression of that love. The internalized ableism still makes me so deeply fucking afraid that I'm the shitty one.

I have a daffodil tattooed on my head as part of my big floral scalp piece, and it's for Narcissus. Ovid's version of the story is the one that's always stuck with me the most, where Narcissus is tricked into his downfall by Nemesis. His worst crimes were "rejecting proposals from people who felt entitled to his body" and "being kind of an asshole, which is something that literally everyone is guilty of at times."

In the end, Narcissus didn't waste away because he was too self-absorbed for anything else, it happened because he was treated with trickery instead of compassion.

[sunlitmcgee]

I really really enjoy this 3rd episode! As I said in my lil' liveblog, I normally don't care much for Ovid's take on the myth where Medusa is a victim who was raped by Poseidon and turned monstrous by Athena as punishment. It's just not my cup of tea and I feel doesn't really add as much nuance as some people say when in the original myth, she's just a monster borne of whatever primal entity created her and many other monsters, depending on the version. Adds some really wonky shit when you consider Perseus (the myth guy, not our little guy here) is a hero...for killing a victim of rape and humiliation through severe isolation and bodily transformation. But well Greek myth isn't exactly the prime example of Pure Unproblematic Media so ofc, this is just me, a modern day person, being nitpicky about ye olden ancient lore, most of which was authored and written down by Really Stupid Old Men with Weird Weird Ideas about women and their bodies.

But here, in the context of the story...yeah. It works very well! There's a certain level of nuance to Medusa and Percy that is really fun to watch and mull over. It's kind of sad to think that in another world, maybe she and Sally could've met and bonded. Maybe in another life she could've been Percy's aunt, since she sees Sally as her sister. But IDK!

It's just fun! I enjoy it. I really like Medusa's logic of seeing Alecto as a bully, and her transformation being something that keeps her safe, as isolating as it is. Her explaining it in language that's accessible to a gaggle of 12 (and also 24 years old) kids is really sweet in a weird way.

I liked this episode :) It was very fun to watch!

[godsofhumanity]

Reading your headcanons about Athena makes me wonder what made you come up with ‘justice is number one to her’ when there are already several other Gods of justice in the Greek pantheon? Also, I don't think it was ever mentioned that justice falls under Athena? Wisdom, sure, but wisdom and justice are two different things. Wisdom doesn't always mean justice comes with it, imo. Or maybe I missed a couple of info?? Ephiphets that imply justice is her domain, perhaps?? Sorry for the long ask. I'm genuinely curious.

yahh sure let me explain this one. note:- it's largely my hc based on the "vibes" my version of Athena gives me.

Themis is usually considered the goddess of justice. she's a titanide, but is also an ex-lover (wife, in fact) of Zeus.

Zeus himself, while not named god of justice explicitly, is associated with law and order, which i believe, although the law does not always uphold "justice" (as in, being fair or reasonable), i think it is a tool by which justice can be delivered in many cases (again, many but not all).

in my version of events, after the Punishment of Prometheus, most of the Titans take a back seat from affairs in Olympus, and these roles are instead carried out by the younger Olympians, i.e., Athena, Apollo, Ares, etc.

now, Athena's mother is Metis who, as we all know, represents wisdom and wise counsel. so because Metis "dies", i like the idea that Athena "inherits" Metis' position on Zeus' council and becomes the one to provide Zeus with sage advice, etc.

the justice part comes from Zeus' side. being the Judge of kind of everything in Olympus, Zeus is 100% concerned with having his laws enforced and punishes people who defy him (i won't even bother listing examples here because he does it literally all the time).

one definition of justice is simply: the administration of the law or authority in maintaining this.

so, being Zeus' right-hand, i think Athena enforces justice by making sure people uphold Zeus' law. you might not agree with Zeus' justice... but justice has always been an arbitrary thing that depends on the eye of the beholder.

so i guess what i'm saying is, i associate justice with Athena because it combines the wisdom of her mother Metis with the law and order brought by her father Zeus. to me, the enforcement of justice is just the natural by-product.

secondly, even if hand of justice or whatever else isn't one of Athena's canonical epithets, i think it makes sense given the role she often plays in myth.

heroes are supposed to be people who display noble, idyllic traits; people to be inspired by. as the patron of heroes, i think Athena must have heroic traits herself... i think this includes being just.

in the Iliad, she fights on the side of the Achaeans.. sure this is largely because Paris slighted her by choosing Aphrodite as the prettiest, but i also think, symbolically, it was the Achaeans who had been disrespected by having their guests defy the laws of xenia and kidnapping their Queen... so from this perspective, i'd argue that Athena acts as a hand of justice in punishing the Trojans for their crime.

now i know many people don't like Ovid's writings because they were written a bit later, BUT, in the myth of Arachne, i believe Ovid's version is the only full (?) source of the myth, and in this one, again, Athena serves as a force of justice when she punishes Arachne for her hubris in both challenging Athena and daring to depict the faults of the gods (hubris may not seem like that big of a deal to us, but would be a big big no no to a god).

anyways so yeah. i hope this clarifies for you how i came to develop Athena as "justice is number one" kind of character! feel free to disagree, but this is how i think of her in my head :)

also, i must restate: being "just" is subjective.

[basicallymyentirepersonality]

Athena. Goddess of wisdom, strategies blah blah blah.

My new hyperfixation (or rather, a re-ignited one because she’s always intrigued me).

I’m going to admit she’s my favourite goddess not because of how nice or incredible she is- she isn’t. She’s a horrible person/goddess (no offense). And I think part of the reason why shes so intriguing is she actually has many layers to her and how different people interpret her is always so interesting.

People who know the myths will start to think she’s horrible and incredibly petty, always out for vengeance and stuff, yeah they’re not wrong.

“Canon” Greek Myths:

One of the most iconic myths about Athena is obviously the myth of Medusa. But if you’ve been hyperfixating long enough you’ll know that there’s so many versions of the myths. The original one was the Medusa was born a gorgon, Ovid’s version was that Athena got jealous (some even more recent interpretations) / mad at Medusa for breaking her vow of celibacy then turning her into a gorgon. Or Athena turned Medusa into a gorgon to protect her. They sound like very different goddesses. Other gods always seem to have straight forward personalities, Hermes a prankster always mischievous he delivers mail sometimes, Apollo he does music, drives a cool car. Of course each god has minor differences when it comes to version but never as jarring as Athena’s.

My interpretations/headcanons:

(Hot take)In my head, Athena is a bad person. She believes she’s being wise, she’s doing things for the greater good. Sometimes she fails to notice whether things are for the greater good or her good. She’s selfish. She’s delusional. Maybe even a bit of a narcissist who refuses to believes she can be wrong. Which makes her even more fun to imagine!!!

Modern retellings/greek mythology ‘fan fiction’:

Aka Percy Jackson. Her show and book version is already a bit different. In the book, she can be seen as a bit of a deadbeat parent, absent, a perfectionist. But ultimately someone Annabeth looked up to (at the beginning, at least). In Mark of Athena, we (I) see her to be a bit of a bully, kind of guilt tripping Annabeth to do stuff. In the show, however, she’s hasn’t even made an official appearance and she’s already so cruel. Not helping Annabeth because she ‘embarrassed’ her. This slight change did make her more similar to the more popular myths, but slightly altered reader’s impression of her.

Which is what makes her interesting.

I can go on and on about stereotypes (what’s the definition of wise?), societal standards, the change in people’s attitudes towards different things as time passes, how time passes. Heck, if I keep going on I’m certain I’m going to end up talking about the scale of time and our insignificance in the grand universe. But I’m not going to because that draws away from the main point of the blog. Greek mythology.

To me, Greek mythology is something that is timeless and up for interpretation all the time. I love debating about Greek mythology so come debate with me 🥊 (ignore my headcanon part tho leave that niche part of my brain alone).

If you noticed anything I got wrong (or maybe this post is utterly wrong in your eyes, do tell but maybe word it nicely sorry 😅) , tell me cuz I’m always up to learn more about other people’s opinions and different Greek myths!

[black-academia]

re-reading Aristophanes's Lysistrata for the book club... and don't get me wrong, I ✨appreciate✨ "the classics" and I'm enjoying doing further research & the annotation process, but...

most of my notes are me shit-talking lol...

...and i know the whole spiel of "we need to put writers/works in their historical and cultural context yadda yadda he's a product of his time etc.," ... and i'm still cussing out this doomi haraam and his portrayal of women :) xo

and don't even get me started on people who cite this particular play as some kind of feminist manifesto ahead of its time and/or A Thing We Might As Well Try In Exchange For Rights. Pls, no... I cringe, I cry, I die... (😫😭💀).

However!!! this translation is really accessible (and freely available online & there's also a greek/english version), and the play is funny at times, even if the jokes are a bit... let's say unsubtle. Still better than reading Ovid...

...and before y'all come for my throat in protection of your problematic fave... I just get tired of women jumping into the sea, or turning into trees, to escape the constant threat/aftermath of their violation by mortal men, Gods and demi-Gods, or The Big Horny Lightning Guy and his Madame of Misdirected Revenge (idek i'm agnostic, but i still refuse to invoke their names while I diss them).

Anyway! Back to Lysistrata; not to project modern conceptions of race onto this period or anything... but I truly envy Lysistrata in the ease at which she mediates an inter-national/inter-ethnic/inter-racial(?) solidarity with her fellow women... including women whose nations/states are literally at war with each other.

I mean, she convened a morning meeting in the village square or whatever, and half these women took the first boat over. Sis didn't even have to offer snacks?! (But tbh if my worst enemy told me that I looked ravishing and had thighs that could throttle a bull, I would probably help them secure world peace, too.)

Srsly, though, like... as a black woman in America, when I think of what it takes to foster genuine, respectful, and informed solidarity with WW (and too often even other women of color) across the boundaries and intersections of race, ethnicity, class, queerness, disability, etc.? oof. yeah... I am suddenly too tired to continue this bullet train of thought... at least tonight.

I may give an unabridged rant (yes, this was the short version) during the book club meeting this Saturday 🖤

[persephoneflowerpetals]

I was reading the abduction of Persephone on wikipedia and I see differences between the Greek and Roman versions. In the Greek myth, Zeus is first consulted before Hades abducts her. In the Roman version, Hades is influenced by Cupid's arrow to abduct her because Aphrodite didn't want another virgin goddess above her influence. So, he struck Hades to make him fall in love with Persephone. Also he doesn't ask for Zeus to abduct her but just kidnaps her. Also in the Roman version by Ovid Persephone still eats the seeds but she ate them because she came upon the tree and ate them. So in that version, Hades didn't trick her into eating it it was an accident of her own due to her hunger.

Oh neat! I actually haven’t read about the Roman version, mainly the Greek version lol!

But yeah, I do remember the thing about Hades and Zeus teaming up to kidnap Persephone! For ‘Til Death, I was originally gonna have Zeus AND Demeter show up in the Underworld when they finally find her and Zeus was gonna basically demand that Hades let her go and Hades would end up striking a deal with Zeus to let Persephone stay with him until next spring, but I realized that Hades honestly hates his brother and most likely wouldn’t strike up a deal with him (he’s probably tried to countless times over the years and it never works out for him lol). Also I don’t think Zeus would accept a deal from his little brother after the whole “Olympus takeover incident” and especially a deal like that where he’s literally asking permission to hold Persephone captive lol. Zeus is supposed to be the “good guy”, so I don’t think him letting Hades keep Persephone would fit his character lol. Also I really wanted to add some personality and characterization to Persephone by having her make the decision to stay with Hades and go against her mother’s wishes instead of someone else making the choice for her (since it’s also a problem that she deals with in the story of people constantly making decisions for her).

Also the thought of Aphrodite being jealous of Persephone (in the Hercules universe ) sounds so funny to me because Aphrodite was so chill and sweet (of course, she was sassy and had some attitude but for the right reasons lmao) in the series and I like to think that she and Persephone are actually good friends lol! I also like to think that she knows that Hades and Persephone have a special connection (y’know ‘cause she’s the goddess of beauty and love), but doesn’t really say anything and is just kinda like watching them in the background low key rooting for them lol (she probably gossips about it to Hephaestus and he’s just like “If you say so, honey. They don’t seem like a compatible couple, but you know best.”). Also I like to think that (before Hades and Persephone meet/start dating) she makes subtle hints to Persephone about her future true love like:

Aphrodite: Hey, you never know. One day some tall, dark, and handsome god could sweep you off your feet.

Persephone: Oh yeah, the day the Underworld starts sprouting daisies is the day I’ll meet Mr. Right.

Aphrodite: Actually, they’ll probably be daffodils, but close enough.

Persephone: What?

Aphrodite: Nothing.

[sarafangirlart]

How is Hesiod worst than Ovid? Not Angry or hating, just curious and willing to know your POV.

Btw do you think some people feels like Hesiod, Homer and the 3 tragic authors are more "ubtouchable" bc they are Greek, so (in theory) closer to those tradicional oral versions we will nevera know?

Just look at how he writes Pandora it’s crazy.

Ig ppl do consider ancient Greek writers rather untouchable yeah

[greatest-greek-games]

If you think about it, referring to Hermaphroditus as they/them makes sense in more than one way

No yeah! I like their Wikipedia page, which refers to Hermaphroditus as such throughout, but if you go by Ovid at least Hermaphroditus is two people in one body.

That being said, Ovid does have something of a history of rewriting Greek myths from his Roman perspective, and it's not the only version of the tale, but I like it at least. Hermaphroditus is a really neat god to me, and is the god of effeminate men, androgyny, I think gay sex is under their purview? Like, hell yeah. Go you funky little Erote.

It's gonna take a while for this poll to finish, especially since I'm planning on week-long polls, but once it's all done if the vibe wants it, I might do a round two with lesser-known Greek gods as well. Hermaphroditus would probably be the first one I put in.

[honey-doggo]

Ok! Ignore this post or not I can’t stop you. I just want to put this idea down somewhere.

So I was thinking about my criticism of Lore Olympus. Long story short, Racheal should of made her own original story with an inspiration of Greek Mythology instead of making a retelling. So I was thought of a myth and made half ass sketch picture. This is because I was dealing with and still am recovering from being very overwhelmed. But I like this idea for a story. I, however, have my own stories inspired(maybe based on as well) by Greek Mythology. So I’m putting this here because why not.

So I used the myth of Perseus and Medusa. I used the Greek version of Medusa(where she was born a monster) not the Roman version(written by Ovid, Medusa is a victim of rape in that myth). So this is what I was inspired by.

So the idea is, our protag enters a haunted house as a dare. He accidentally breaks something valuable and runs out of the house. Little did he know, that caused a monster spirit thing to attach to him. As far as he knows the spirit is just head and he’s the only one who can see her. The spirit thing ends up being a friend and helps our protag deal with his problems.

What are the problems? Idk, I didn’t get that far. I just had one of them be a man that doesn’t like our protagonist.

So yeah that’s where I’m leaving it off. I might draw a few scenarios but that’s it. I really need to focus on my other projects. Discipline in sticking with stories is something I need to do.

[logandria]

Medusa was originally always a Gorgon and was never punished my Athena and she had a consensual relationship with Poseidon. The Roman version by Ovid made her a victim.

So yeah rest assured that in the original myth Athena never did her dirty 😅

That’s true! I’m taking artistic liberties in my illustration and blending elements from both the Greek and Roman versions of the myth.

Ovid is more or less the jumping off point for the story behind the illustration — but I also wove in a few references to the earlier Greek myth (like the gorgon sisters on the three cups in the border), and took plenty of my own artistic liberties (like her vagina dentata). The illustration is a look at her story as an ever changing whole that has been re-told and re-understood by people across the centuries, rather than an accurate depiction of any one telling.

No image referencing a ~3000 year old ever-changing myth will ever be accurate to any single version of that myth. Also, there’s my own relationship with the concept of Medusa and my projections onto her at play here — we all relate to these very old stories differently and resonate with different versions.