#my tropes gifsets have returned from the war!!!

[thepancakelady]

𝓳𝓲𝓾𝓽𝓲𝓪𝓷 + 𝓽𝓻𝓸𝓹𝓮𝓼 >> jam rachata as jiu & film thanapat as tian

[princeescaluswords]

Why Call It Racism?

I’ll start with what should be an unnecessary disclaimer:  This is my opinion. 

I had a friend complain that he couldn’t criticize a character of color without being called a racist.   Well, I’m sure that it feels that way sometimes, but you can criticize/dislike characters of color, it’s just that – like everything else you might do in this world – how and why you do it is also important.

It’s important to remember that racism takes many forms, especially in entertainment.  It’s not always some white bro with a Confederate battle flag decal on his pick-up truck screaming hatred at black people while wearing a white sheet.  It can be double standards, prioritization, and editing.  It can be an audience seeing Colin Kaepernick kneeling during the national anthem as unpatriotic and dangerous, but that same audience celebrating automatic-weapon-armed protestors on the steps of state capitals defying anti-pandemic civil instructions as the Spirit of America ™.   If you ask the people angry at Kaepernick, many of them will insist that his race has nothing to do with it.

I don’t think I’m exaggerating when I say that Heroes of Color have a difficult time in fandoms.  When I say Hero of Color, I mean a character of color that the narrative, that the dialogue, that the actors, that the producers, that the advertisements indicate should be admired and that their actions are presented as positive.  I mean characters, for example, like Finn from Star Wars, Iris West-Allen from The Flash, and – the one I am most familiar with – Scott McCall from Teen Wolf.   They have all been the target – not just of fandom disinterest, though they are ignored quite a bit – but also of fandom hatred.  

I’m going to go over what I see as the main manifestations of subtle racism in fandom and I’ll be using examples from the Teen Wolf  fandom, because not only is it the one I’m the most familiar with, but it’s also super easy with multiple characters of color being targeted.

If you can state that you hate a character of color, but you cannot or aggressively will not explain why you hate them, then people might suspect you are influenced by racism.   For example, if, in 2020, you still think Alan Deaton is shady and a secret evil mastermind, even though 100 episodes revealed no agenda from him other than his desire to help others on his own terms, you could be reacting to the racist archetype of the Magic Negro, where the black character exists to help white characters.

If you criticize a hero of color for behavior and use it to condemn them but turn around and excuse a similar or even worse behavior from a white character, then people might suspect that your employment of a double-standard is influenced by racism.  If you argue that Scott McCall’s thoughtless comment in Magic Bullet (1x04) about Derek’s accusation that the Argents burned down his house (“Well, then they had a reason”) is justification for Peter and Derek cornering a half-naked Scott in a darkened locker room and mentally violating him, but you also argue that Derek breaking into Scott’s home, lurking behind him, assaulting him, and threatening to kill him, does not justify Scott and Stiles having him arrested for Laura’s murder, you are holding them to a double standard.   If you criticize Kira, in danger of being consumed by her fox spirit due its manipulation by Theo and the Dread Doctors, for honoring her deal with the Skin-Walkers in return for their help and sending Theo underground, but you think that Liam constantly threatening Theo with being sent back underground is a sign of their blossoming romance, you are holding a pretty big double standard.  

If you edit the actions of a hero of color to make them look bad and you edit the actions of an antagonist against a hero of color to make them look good, then people might suspect your editing is influenced by racism.  If you claim that you don’t like Scott McCall because he ditched Stiles for Allison and then Isaac by editing the story, you might be looked at suspiciously.  The only person that Scott ditched was Allison, once for Stiles, and agreeing with Isaac over Stiles for 20 seconds is not ditching.   If you claim that you don’t like Scott because he treated Derek as a villain in Season 2 for no reason, pretending that he didn’t abandon Jackson to death, endanger Isaac’s freedom, seduce an underage Erica, have Scott beaten for defying up to stepping on his throat, kidnap Stiles, kidnap Jackson, attempt to murder Lydia in Scott’s own home, and then lie to Scott once more, you also might be looked at suspiciously.

If you prioritize the white characters in your fandom pursuit even in defiance of canon or common sense, then people might suspect that you are influenced by racism.  If you create a gifset of the Hale Pack, with Derek as Alpha, Stiles as Emissary, Peter, Isaac, Erica, Liam, Jackson, and Lydia (Lydia is a mighty stretch, yet sometimes they even include Allison), some people might suspect you only care about white people.  If you don’t see a problem that Talia Hale features in 4128 Teen Wolf fanfiction stories on AO3, when she was dead 6-10 years before the start of the show and only appeared in flashbacks in two episode – one of which she had no words because she was a wolf, but Noshiko Yukimura only features in 328 Teen Wolf fanfiction stories on AO3, when she was in 16 episodes.  If Talia Hale is cool-as-hell because she’s a full-wolf shifter and a powerful matriarch who deserves to be explored, why doesn’t a 900-year-old cool-as-hell celestial kitsune deserve it as well?

Disliking Scott McCall doesn’t make you a racist.   But you can’t really blame certain members of the fandom for suspecting that racist thought does influence your dislike when we’ve seen a vast majority of people heavily invested in defying the show’s premise that he’s a good person and a hero.   You can’t really blame members of the fandom for suspecting racist thought for influencing fandom when they see well-established racist tropes applied to characters of color.  No Scott fan pushed the ‘Scott is sexually obsessed with Allison which is why he doesn’t work with Derek’ trope, they only pointed out that the ‘sexually obsessed’ stereotype has been historically assigned to Latinos.   And it’s not just Scott.  How many people force Boyd into the silent giant stereotype when Sinqua Walls is only an inch taller than Isaac’s actor?

And as I stated at the top of this essay: it’s not just Teen Wolf.   Finn from Star Wars was portrayed as lusting after another man’s woman and/or infantilized.  The actress who plays Iris West-Allen from The Flash has had to defend her character publically.   It’s not unreasonable when someone criticizes a Hero of Color to wonder if it’s just another example of a wide-spread phenomenon.

[queenmercurys]

Ah, I'm so sorry to hear that you've been getting hate for shipping Jo and Laurie. People can be so terrible. :( I'd love to hear more of your thoughts about them, but I understand if you prefer not to share more out of concern for the hate. Regardless, thank you for your answer.

Thank you! It’s really not a big deal, but I’m kinda at that point in my life where I really don’t need to be reading hateful comments about fictional ships on a website like Tumblr. And worst of all, most of these comments are added by people to gifsets I make. So, like, not only do I now feel like it’s risky to even post gifsets about Jo and Laurie, but also the very small amount of interaction I do get for my work is negative feedback. Not a good time. And it confuses me, because I kinda thought Jo and Laurie were a popular ship. And even if they weren’t, who cares? Amy and Laurie shippers already got everything they wanted in the film, why do they have to come after people who ship Jo and Laurie? Doesn’t make much sense to me. But yeah, overall I don’t think I should engage in the ship wars, I’m in my early twenties, I really am too old for this shit. But I will say this: to anyone who thinks it’s ok to comment (or write in the tags) negative things about a ship on an edit someone has spent time making and posting, you need to think about your life choices. And yes, this includes people who reblog the stuff and go “I hate the ship but I love their friendship” because bruh, that was not the point of the edit so like, just don’t interact. It’s that easy. If you don’t like something, don’t interact with it.

Sorry about that mild rant, Tumblr is very frustrating. But yeah, no, I think I’m good with talking more about them, and if someone is offended, they can (and should... I dare you, please) just block me. 

For some AU things, I really love the idea of Laurie actually receiving Jo’s letter and the consequences of that. I’ve seen a few fics kind of delve into that, but not really in the way I see it. So, maybe one day I’ll write like a fic based on it. Though that would make me kind of have to address the Amy situation, which I’m not really interested in writing about. But even as just a concept, Laurie finding Jo’s letter and reading it when it’s “too late” is just so bittersweet and I both love and hate the idea. Their entire scene in the attic is just full-on bittersweet. 

I fully subscribe to the idea (I mean, it’s not an idea, it’s what it says in the official script) that Jo didn’t actually run after Friedrich, and allegedly did end up marrying no one. Mostly because it’s what she wanted, ultimately, and also because I really don’t think she and Friedrich were compatible at all. I’m not really seeing it as “if Laurie can’t have her, no one can”, I just don’t see that relationship working. Even if Laurie and Jo had ended up together, I’m not confident that they would have needed to get married, or get married right away. They could have traveled around Europe together, as Jo had always wanted, and gotten to know each other as romantic partners and seen where it’d go from there. I don’t think Jo and Laurie are one of those traditional couples (or friends) in any aspect, so I can’t imagine the basic “marriage, then kids” formula for them. 

I really would have liked to have known what Jo wrote to Laurie in those letters while he was gone, the ones he never answered. I’m not expecting them to have included anything romantic (because if they had, Laurie probably would have felt more positive about answering them), but still, I would have liked to have read them. I truly think the two of them were best friends and as close as two people could possibly be, so their separation is even sadder because of that. I also hate that Laurie was not there for Jo when Beth died. Obviously that’s because he wasn’t in the country, but that’s when she needed Laurie the most, and he wasn’t there, which sucks. 

I’m not sure if anyone else noticed this, but Laurie is still wearing the ring Jo gave him even in the scene where Amy draws him. I just find it really heartbreaking that even after everything, he still couldn’t let her go. And Jo, too, still wears the red scarf shared by her and Laurie (which I assume originally belonged to Laurie) after all those years. I don’t think it’s that easy to let go of your first love (or any love), and Laurie’s facial expressions and reactions around Jo and Friedrich say everything I need to know about how he felt. 

My main headcanon for how I would have wanted Jo and Laurie to end up together would’ve been essentially what would have happened in the film if Amy had not gotten involved. I think I still would’ve wanted Laurie to go to Europe and Jo to have that time to figure out her thoughts, and when he’d return, she’d express her feelings and then, maybe they would go back to Europe together, because I really do want Jo to have that trip. Or alternatively, she figures out her feelings earlier and joins Laurie in Europe. A bit of a romantic sentiment not really befitting Jo’s personality, but the impulsivity is there. And that way, she could, again, see Europe. 

I think overall, I respect everyone’s opinions about the ships in this film, but I have found that I can’t personally understand where the reasoning for Amy and Laurie or Jo and Friedrich comes from. That is, no doubt, reflective of my own personal preferences and biases, and doesn’t reflect any kind of “truth”. This is just my opinion. In the script, they refer to Laurie as Jo’s childhood love, and I really do believe she loved him, and that they could have been an amazing couple. And as a lover of the good, old-fashioned friends-to-lovers trope, I would have liked to see it. A couple with mutual respect, admiration and 100% comfort around each other is a rare thing to find. All too often, Hollywood ships consist of two people who seem to hate each other, but that “hate” is supposed to be translated into some kind of sexual tension (also present in LW). I never understood this, so for me, Jo and Laurie were pretty much perfect. And, as kind of a sidenote, I adore how out-of-the-norm their aesthetic is. How many ships can you name where the man and the woman swap clothes consistently without it being a big deal? The two are so comfortable around each other, I���ve never seen anything like it. I think their chemistry is outstanding, their story is beautiful and even though they weren’t endgame, they’re still definitely my OTP and the only ship I’ve given a damn about in years. So, I think they did some things right. 

[fialleril]

I absolutely adore Flash and Substance pretty much for the exact reasons you list and that gifset you posted of Flash and Trickster might be my favorite scene from the entire DC Animated Universe

Literally my only gripe about Flash and Substance is that they made Linda a Flash fangirl when really Wally should have been a Linda fangirl. But I can overlook this because she’s there and they’re still super cute together. (Though I also have…a lot of headcanons by which I finagle things so that she more resembles her comics counterpart while still fitting in with her character in the show. I won’t derail with those headcanons here though.) And because pretty much everything else about that episode is just perfect.

Anyway, for anybody just joining in, my tags on that gifset were:

this is the purest interaction in all of superhero media i will never understand people who think kind and decent characters are boring catch me out here watching flash and substance on infinite loop chin in hands and stars in my eyes an entire episode about the power of kindness and good people being good to each other yes please this is the content i signed up for

I kid you not, I have never once managed to watch Flash and Substance without having to pause at the end of that scene and just…bask in the goodness for a couple minutes. I mean, the chin hands and starry eyes is completely literal. There’s hand flapping involved usually. And sometimes noises audible only to dogs.

I just really love stories about good people who care in such a genuine way that they make everyone around them a little better, too. Idk if there’s an official name for that character type, but it’s definitely in my top five fictional tropes. And I particularly love the execution of it in JLU generally and Flash and Substance specifically because it’s just so… low key.

I mean, the three other scenes that instantly come to mind when I think of this trope, three scenes that also make me pause and just soak them up every time, are the “help me take this mask off” scene in Return of the Jedi, and two scenes from Mad Max: Fury Road - Capable meeting Nux in the back of the war rig, and Max telling Furiosa his name at the end.

And those are all stunningly beautiful scenes that destroy me every time, no matter how many times I watch them. But they’re also Big Deal Moments. (And they should be!)

What’s so amazing about Flash and Substance is that…there really isn’t a Big Deal Moment at any point in the episode. It’s not a Big Deal Episode, either. Hell, it’s really a filler episode. Just a slice of life in Central City. There’s nothing particularly special about it and that’s kinda the point. Wally’s just…like that. All the time. He’s just a really decent guy, who knows everyone in his city by name, who hangs out with kids at the orphanage and paints old ladies’ fences in his free time, who visits his villains in the hospital, not even to check up on their rehabilitation, but just to hang out.

And this episode takes place less than half a season after the end of the Cadmus arc. The entire Justice League is still on thin ice with the public in general and with the US and world council governments in particular. They’re constantly on their best behavior trying to prove that they deserve to be called heroes at all.

And meanwhile Central City has built a Flash Museum because they love their hometown hero. Because, much as I love Bats and Supes and all the rest, Flash isn’t some half-mythical figure fading in and out of the shadows, or some symbol of hope spotted up in the sky, or somebody who comes in to save the day and then is off to the next town and the next day that needs to be saved. He wears a mask and (unlike his comics counterpart, at least during the period I’m fondest of) he has a secret identity, but he doesn’t actually act much differently as Flash than he does as Wally.

Well, okay. He’s actually got a pretty damn impressive Obfuscating Stupidity act going on, but one of the low key but delightful reveals that comes out of Flash and Substance is that he primarily employs his Obfuscating Stupidity act on the other members of the Justice League. And supervillains, of course. (The non-Rogue ones, anyway. The Rogues damn well know better.) And even then, he doesn’t keep up the act out of any desire to disguise his identity. He does it because somebody’s got to be the fun one in this band of Super Serious Heroes, and it just so happens that Wally likes being the fun one. So that works out nicely for everyone. Well, everyone but Grodd and Lex Luthor, who are perpetually annoyed by his heckling. But honestly they deserve it.

And it gives him an advantage sometimes, being the fun one. Like with Trickster. Wally’s actually friends with James, and the really wonderful thing about that scene with Trickster is that James knows they’re friends, too. It’s not the far more common superhero scenario, where the hero cares a lot about the villain’s hopeful rehabilitation because they feel somehow responsible, but the villain despises the hero and the audience knows that rehabilitation will never happen. Wally genuinely cares about James and James knows it, and knows that he can trust that, which is kind of amazing, on both of their parts. And I suspect that’s partly because Wally is the fun one, so he and James understand each other in a way heroes and villains often don’t.

Because being a superhero is Serious Business. Except when it’s really not. Because your supervillain is a guy just trying to live out the trickster archetype, and there’s a script for that, so hey, you might as well play along. It means people don’t get hurt, and it’s also just more fun that way. And when things do get serious, when your supposed nemesis is off his meds and needs a friend to remind him why he does need them, then you can actually be that friend without a lot of drama getting in the way.

Or, in other words: Nobody gets hurt, and that’s a really good day.

[politicalpadme]

PadMay is an annual event in celebration of our beloved former queen and senator of Naboo, Padmé Naberrie Amidala. There will be thirty one prompts, one for each day in the month of May.

Days 1-9: Symbolism

Days 10-16: Roles and Relationships

Days 17-27: The Phantom Menace (20th Anniversary!)

Days 28-31: Favorites and Formats

The full list of prompts is beneath the cut and crossposted to dreamwidth. You may answer as many, or as few, as you like and there is no specific format. Questions and prompts may be considered in universe or meta and answers may take the form of discussion, fiction, artwork, gifsets, vids, vlogs, whatever! It is also fine to post on a different day than that which corresponds with the number (if you miss one, or it is simply easier for you).

Please tag your posts #PadMay2019 and feel free to message me links. I cannot wait to see all your discussion, fiction, art, and creativity! If you have any questions, my ask box is open. 

PART ONE: SYMBOLISM 1. The Amidala Symbol or Naboo Royal Crest 2. The Scar of Remembrance 3. The traditional colored twin cheek-spots of “Balance” and “Symmetry” 4. The Living Force 5. Flower imagery and symbolism in relation to Padmé Amidala 6. Water imagery and symbolism in relation to Padmé Amidala 7. Moon imagery and symbolism in relation to Padmé Amidala 8. Numbers significant to the Naboo, for example 13 handmaidens for a monarch of Naboo required to be on duty at all times; 5 handmaidens to accompany the Queen whenever she travels 9. Padmé’s Wardrobe

PART TWO: ROLES AND RELATIONSHIPS

Bulleted lists are merely suggestions, you may answer the prompt however it suits you!

10. Family

Padmé as the baby of the family

Her parents move to Theed to give her more options, why didn’t they move when Sola was born?

Her mother wished for her to pursue music, why does Padmé choose politics?

What protections do Padmé’s parents, sister, and nieces have given that so many factions wish to harm her?

How is Padmé remembered by her family?

11. Monarchs

King Ars Vernua, monarch voted out in favor of Amidala

Queen Réillata, her immediate successor (and former opera singer), who asks Amidala to be Senator

Queen Jamillia, monarch when the war begins, thought to sympathize with Separatist ideologues

Queen Neyutnee, monarch during the Blue Shadow Virus crisis

Queen Apailana, monarch when the Republic and Amidala die

12. Handmaidens

handmaidens killed in the line of duty (Cordé, Versé, Duja, Teckla)

Saché, former handmaiden and later a mentee as a member of the Naboo planetary legislative assembly

Sabé, her decoy

13. Mentors

Sheev Palpatine

Onaconda Farr aka “Uncle Ono”

Silya Shessaun

Mina Bonteri

14. Mentees

Riyo Chuchi

Ahsoka Tano

15. Love Interests

Palo Jemabie

Ian Lago

Baron Rush Clovis, Senator of Scipio

Anakin Skywalker

16. Allies

Bail Organa

Satine Kryze

Obi-Wan Kenobi

PART THREE: THE PHANTOM MENACE

Bulleted lists are merely suggestions, you may answer the prompt however it suits you!

17. “I will not condone a course of action that will lead us to war.”

How does Padmé’s commitment to peace evolve?

Amidala is introduced with this line but the title and story as previously told require her conviction to waver and fail - how does this influence how we see her character?

In this moment Amidala considers war the worst possible outcome. Is it?

The actions taken in this film and those that follow do lead to war. What actions could she take that might alter that fate? Or was it always inevitable?

18. “We are brave, your highness.”

How is Padmé brave? What are examples of her bravery?

Why does Padmé choose to go with the Jedi to Coruscant?

Describe Padmé and Sabé and the other handmaidens learning to communicate without words.

How would remaining on Naboo change the story?

19. “Her Highness commands you to take her handmaiden with you.”

What are Padmé’s interests in/on Tatooine?

Describe Padmé requesting or commanding Panaka to present her to Qui-Gon.

Describe Padmé dressing as a peasant. Where does she get the outfit? Why arethese particular clothes chosen? Her hairstyle?

Discuss the power differentials between Padmé, Amidala, the Jedi, and her retinue of guards, pilots, and handmaidens.

20. “I can’t believe there is still slavery in the galaxy.”

Discuss the privilege inherent in this comment. How does it color Padmé’s interactions with the Skywalkers?

How/why does Padmé accept Qui-Gon’s decision to leave Shmi behind?

Discuss Padmé’s desires to do good and help individuals like Anakin, Shmi, and Jar Jar with her commitments to Naboo.

How would the story change if Padmé freed Shmi sometime between TPM and AotC as she wanted and planned to?

21. “Well, I don’t approve.”

Discuss Padmé’s impression of Qui Gon, whom she argues with on Tatooine and describes as arrogant and frustrating in various (EU) novels.

Padmé is initially against the pod-racing scheme. What is her thinking and how does it change?

What are her thoughts on Qui Gon using gambling to free Anakin? But not Shmi?

Presenting as a handmaiden, Padmé has far less power during the trip to Tatooine. How does this make her feel?

22. “If this body is not capable of action, I suggest new leadership is needed.”

Padmé is initially against the vote of No Confidence. What is her thinking and how does it change?

Discuss Palpatine’s manipulation of Amidala.

Would she make the same decision if she knew Palpatine would be nominated?

What are Padmé’s thoughts as she speaks before the senate? Immediately before and after?

23. “My fate will be no different from that of our people.”

When, how, and why does Padmé make the decision to return to Naboo?

Queen Amidala leaves fed up with politics, but as Senator she sticks up for democracy. How does her thinking evolve?

Padmé has a tendency to fling herself into danger. Where does it come from? Discuss this as a strength and a weakness.

The prequels are all about ‘fate’. How does it affect Padmé?

24. “I need your help.”

What does Padmé know of the Gungans before she meets one?

What motivates Amidala’s choice to ask Jar Jar and the gungans for help?

The Jedi, Anakin, and Jar Jar all help Padmé achieve her goals, for various reasons, how do these interactions influence her as Queen and later Senator versus as an individual person?

25. “I am Queen Amidala.”

Why does Padmé choose to reveal herself to Boss Nass?

How does Padmé realize she must swallow her pride to convince the gungans to help her?

26. “Well, that is why we must not fail to get to the Viceroy. Everything depends on it.”

Discuss Padmé learning strategy as preparation for being Queen.

Why is it important to Padmé the Viceroy is captured, not killed?

Amidala risks and loses many lives in this battle. How do they weigh on her?

27. “Now, Viceroy, we will discuss a new treaty.”

What would be Padmé’s ideal outcome from this point?

Discuss the antagonistic relationship between Padmé Amidala and Nute Gunray.

Padmé practices aggressive negotiations in this scene; how integral are they to her style?

PART FOUR: FAVORITES AND FORMATS

You are of course free to fill (or combine!) both prompts.

28. Your Favorite Quote said by or about Padmé Amidala or Create a game for the community to solve (puzzle, crossword, a ‘Where’s Waldo’ map, rebus, a game of logic, scavenger hunt, bingo card etc.)

29. Your Favorite costume worn by Padmé Amidala or Create a chart relating to Padmé Amidala (flowchart of her progress in politics, org chart of Naboo, family tree, Naboo censor data, Senate seating chart etc.)

30. Your Favorite Trope or AU involving Padmé Amidala or Create a collage inspired by Padmé Amidala

31. Your Favorite Song on the Official Star Wars Padmé Amidala Playlist or Create a playlist inspired by Padmé Amidala

Thank you and Enjoy!

[solanospetra]

The thing is the fandom was not that bad maybe because I didn’t really care for jtv fandom it was a different kind of show I didn’t care who Jane ended up with as long as they were all happy but somehow I ended on jafael tumblr acct and through that I got into the fandom and your tumblr cause it looked lit but now it’s like everyone is fighting over the stupidest things or there done with the show like you and jafael and petramos or johnmulaney its like there’s you guys and then the rest of the

fandom.. everyone seems so tense the fandom wasn’t that bad then again I really started seeing the how the fans reacted around s4 before that this show was more like odaat it was a way to escape all the crap going on in my life it was this light whimsical show even if Villadero or jafael didn’t end up together the show was so much more than that now the recent epi is about raf and Petra fighting they finally reached a good place let them be happy at least and let Jane Petra and raf be good co parents. S3 was good cause of this dynamic. Who would’ve thought that I would be looking forward to their scenes after what happened to michael. Now it’s like raf doesn’t care about his kids especially the twins Petra is the only parent they have you could’ve just made them someone else kid if we weren’t going to see any scenes between raf and his daughters I don’t know if you can’t tell from this rant how frustrated I am.

There’s a lot to unpack here so it’s all going to be under the cut.

Fandom wise, it’s been worse, and one of the reasons I hated the decision to bring Michael back was because the fandom had just started settling down again. Literally, anything prior to season three was constant fights. but I will say I saw a lot more Jane gifsets back then than I do now and that makes me sad. I’m gonna be honest and tell you up until a week ago I had everything extremely curated because as soon as the finale aired the ship wars erupted again, and like you I wanted to enjoy my fandom experience. I follow a handful of people from the JTV fandom because I want to enjoy (whatever that means now) tumblr not roll my eyes every thirty seconds. That being said, if it feels like we’re done with the show it’s because we got let down so fucking hard. I gave it a chance, I said I wasn’t going to make a definitive statement until the end of the triangle arc because I had some kind of hope. I’ve probably been done with the show since the whole gaslighting thing, but I waited, hoped they would do Petramos justice only to be let down again. Yet, here I am, eight episodes to go and still hoping Jane The Virgin will pick up and make me laugh, and cry, and gasp, and scream and just make me excited for the next episode. I can’t lie though, I am tired. I had high hopes for this season, and it’s been one big let down after another.

Yeah, as someone who is also deeply entrenched in the ODAAT fandom, the season 5 fandom of JTV is no where near what the ODAAT fandom was, probably because Mike & Gloria were more conscious about the story they were telling for the entire family and not as focused on who Lupe was going to end up with. Where ODAAT made Lupe’s love life one aspect of her, JTV has made her love life the thing that defines her. That wouldn’t have been bad, I could have lived with that if they hadn’t chosen to bring Michael back for no fucking reason. The ODAAT fandom is headcanons, cute fics, art, and no gifsets bc ppl hate me. The JTV fandom is either angry, tired, trying to make the best of it, or all three.

“S3 was good cause of this dynamic. Who would’ve thought that I would be looking forward to their scenes after what happened to michael.” But what if they hadn’t killed Michael? What if instead, we could have seen their new friendship develop? JTV could have owned the found family trope, two romantic rivals who came to respect each other, and are now friends? Jane and Michael and problems married couples face? That’s what made 3A good, it was about different dynamics, where they all stood with each other. They could have dug deeper into Petra’s trauma, how Emilo’s will affected Rafael emotionally instead of financially. Xiomara and Bruce, I’m still annoyed at how quickly they forgot Bruce and married Xo and Ro off only to give me BS storylines like last weeks. 

Although I don’t like parts of 3B, mostly the return of Petra/Rafael, it was the parenting aspect that was so fun to watch. Jane and Rafael as bros sign me the fuck up! I love the bro dynamic of Jane/Rafael, and I hate that now I watch them and knowing that they’re gonna turn it into something romantic, mostly because it isn’t done well. 

Look, I can talk all day about Rafael, he’s been done such a disservice since S2. All of Jane’s SO’s have tbh, I mean, what did we really know about Michael aside from his “bad” past, his anger issues (sorry to break it to you but our boy clearly has issues in S1), the fact that he’s a cop, and that at some point he became goofy. I think we learned more about him as Jason than we did when he was Michael. Again, maybe if they hadn’t killed him off for no reason other than they could, he would have been more fleshed out.

I see, you, I hear you, and it sucks that you don’t have that escape anymore.

[ifeelbetterer]

Hey, I know you like old movies bc you reblog all the gifsets that make me happy in my heart, but I was wondering if you have any recs for movies to make a person cry? I'm trying to clear out my emotional clutterbox and just have a Day Of Tears, but all the old movies I know are like romcoms and screwballs. Do you love any tearjerkers from the Katherine Hepburn era?

YES MY FRIEND, I CAN HELP. 

However, the only K. Hepburn film that has made me cry is Stage Door. It’s an all around brilliant film despite some flaws (that comes from a dated attitude about policing female sexuality). You get Katherine being Wonderful (as, you know, always), but you also get a dramatic turn from Ginger Rogers and a veeeery young Lucille Ball in a bit part. It’s a film about a female community of artists and it’s their relationships with each other that drives the plot. I really love this film but be warned that there’s a sudden death from suicide (in case that’s a trigger for you). 

But if you are looking to that era for crying, you must go to Bette Davis. She’s your girl for crying. 

I admit to crying for Ms Davis in: 

Dark Victory (VERY patronizing towards women but also suuuuuper pathos; also has them good tropes like “mutual pining” and “fake marriage that’s not fake” etc)

Now, Voyager (SUCH SAD, sad reliance on a chaste version of magical healing penis, but also a really great attention paid to a bond between Bette and a pseudo-adopted-daughter, also features INCREDIBLE quote: “Don’t ask for the moon. We have the stars.” Which. Come talk to me later. You’ll see.)

I also have to admit to loooooving Grand Hotel, a film that does not at all feature Bette Davis OR Katherine Hepburn. It DOES have a crazy amazing cast: Greta Garbo. John Barrymore. Joan Crawford. Everybody absolutely killing it. It’s one of those “slice of life” types of films where there’s as much romance as tragedy as comedy. 

But for films I cry at every single goddamn time I watch them? Casablanca. You knew I was going to say that, right? Everybody cries at Casablanca. 

And one I haven’t ever seen but I hear is a big ol’tearjerker is Ever in My Heart. Barbara Stanwyck stars and she is perfect in everything she does. Set in WWI and is about Barbara marrying a German guy who then returns to Germany to fight for his people when the war starts. She is on the American side in Europe and they re-encounter each other. It goes badly. Very sad, was once warned not to watch this film by my sister because she cried too hard. 

[randomaliha]

A, C, N, X

Thanks! :) 

A - ships that I currently like a lot.

I always have a bunch of ships I’m invested in to some degree (most sort of casual or in the background) but my main one right now is stucky so prepare yourself for a ramble, my friend. I’m a sucker for ships that span a long time frame because you get so much richness and development. So, Steve and Bucky meet as kids in 1930s Depression-era New York. They grow up together but get separated for the first time when Bucky gets drafted for the war. It’s a whole time period that’s really evocative, with heaps of scope for stories about discovering each other and ~feelings and trying to work jobs and live together and Bucky trying to find Steve a date but no one wants to date Steve but p.s. Bucky’s pretty much taking him on dates all the time soooo yeah. Then we get this second act where Steve has been transformed and Bucky has been captured and experimented on, so they’ve both changed – except for the way they feel about each other. They spend the rest of the war fighting together until Bucky is presumed killed (Steve couldn’t save him! Steve will never fail him like that again! Is what Steve says to himself every night I’m guessing!) and right after that Steve sacrifices himself and puts his plane into the ice. Ultimately, of course, the war was bigger than both of them. And that should have been the end of it, an amazing but tragic journey for those two kids from Brooklyn. But we get another act, another page, in which they find each other again and Steve breaks through Bucky’s 65 years of brainwashing pretty much by existing. Two bits I absolutely love in this third act: the first time they cross paths again since 1945 is in TWS, when Bucky/the soldier comes to kill Fury at Steve’s apartment. At that moment, ‘Its been a long, long time’ by Kitty Kallen plays on Steve’s record player, a romantic af song from 1945 about lovers reuniting after the end of the war. Never thought that you would be/Standing here so close to me… You’ll never know how many dreams I've dreamed about you/Or just how empty they all seemed without you/So kiss me once then kiss me twice, then kiss me once again/It’s been a long, long time. Wow what a totally platonic bros reunion song. And second, when they’re fighting aboard the carrier and Bucky’s struggling with his programming, Steve says “finish it. Cos I’m with you, to the end of the line” which…. you know, he’s telling Bucky/the soldier to kill him because Steve won’t kill Bucky. Will not. Full stop. He’s with Bucky even if Bucky’s not really there anymore, even if being there for Bucky means dying. And the thing about it is, that’s a promise they made to each other. To be there til the end of the line. We see Bucky say it to Steve in a flashback, it’s how Bucky has always felt about Steve, a promise he’s made to Steve as much as to himself, to be there for Steve always, and on that carrier Steve is returning that love and that unwavering loyalty. And that promise is what finally gets through to Bucky and breaks decades of brainwashing. I MEAN. This devotion to each other is absolutely core to their characters. Those birds are in love. (If Infinity War kills one of them or separates them again I will be mad as hell, dishonour on all marvel’s (cash) cows.)

C - a ship I have never liked and probably never will

I feel like all my NOPE ships are in Star Wars. Rey/Kylo is the biggest nope in the galaxy and I hated their scenes in tlj. Actually, Kylo really reminds me of Anakin in the prequels, but worse. Kylo is that kid who got a chip on his shoulder when he was a teenager and has never moved past it, and now he’s a selfish tool who causes suffering and kills people because he got his feelings hurt and it makes him so angry but he’s just misunderstood and deep down he’s a nice guy if people would just do what he wants. In a high school AU this would be the character that would need to be on some kind of fbi watch list, and I hate that Star Wars writers can’t come up with a better characterisation when they’re trying to write a complex character who turns to the dark side. Things don’t go right for angry young white man; he kills everyone? That’s basically it? Some fans might point to the influence of Palpatine and Snoke as playing a role but there are plenty of characters in the SW universe who got dealt a shitty hand in life and got tempted by the dark side and didn’t go over. Basically Anakin wasn’t good enough for Padme or Obi-Wan (nooope nope nope) and Kylo isn’t anywhere near good enough for Rey or indeed anyone in the galaxy. 

N - 3 things you wish you saw more of in your fandom(s)

1. I just found a bunch of meta posts for Bucky/stucky that included timelines and costume research and meta and it was amazing and super exciting. So I guess more of that in all my fandoms but yeah, I love world-building, I love being able to fit a character into a setting and a world, and get more context on who they are, so discussion of that stuff is great and I find it really helps and inspires me as a fic writer.

2. drabbles on my dash. Can we bring back 100 word drabbles as a thing we post on tumblr? I tend to only read longer fics on ao3 but 100 word drabbles are perfect little mouthfuls for your dash, like a gifset. Also they are a damn art form and I love them.

3. Rare pairs maybe? (says every rare pair fan ever) 

X - a trope you are certain to love in any fandom

Misunderstandings that lead to mutual pining and loads of shivery tension and a big beautiful reveal. I WILL ALWAYS READ SUCH PERFECT GOODNESS.

Tagging anyone on my dash who wants to do this or send me an ask?

[tinkdw]

The future - and it is showing us this loud and clear

This episode was amazing. After flailing and basically shouting all day I am so happy and so excited that I joined tumblr - the quality of posts today has been excellent, both humorous and inciteful and I LOVE YOU ALL :)

I hope its ok I’m going to tag a few great posts in this to reference as I don't want to go over stuff other people have already meta-d about so excellently!

This episode, titled the future, seems to me to be Dabb basically telling us what he wants for the next part of the show, the “better way” that he wants to take it.

So here are my main bullet points that I will expand on a little below and link those excellent posts to where relevant:

A. Sam 

Sam is clearly portrayed again, recurrently as the researcher, the “brains” of the operation (before you say ‘Dean is so clever though!’ I’m just pointing out Sam’s love of the scholarly side of things and how this is where he fits). Sam’s endgame must now be to head up the MoL/hunter network in this respect.

B. Sam and Dean 

They work so well as a team here, Sam putting a tracker in Cas’s phone while he’s distracted by Dean, researching v whatever Dean was doing (maybe making a pining mixtape along the lines of “all by myself” and “I miss you” “please come home”, BUT they are shown as different people, with different interests, skills and relationships - with Cas for example, & not codependent. Again hammering this home in this episode. THANK YOU DABB, GLYNN & BERENS.

C. THE RECURRING AND CONSISTENT NARRATIVE OF DESTIEL.

This whole episode is one big love fest. We went from one ‘wow I can't believe they just did that!’ to the next to the next with hardly enough time for us to catch out breath! WHAT WAS THIS EPISODE?!

OK, so we have :

1. My Romeo & Juliet / Gaze up Trope Balcony Meta.

2. The Mixtape Meta, another EXPLICIT romantic trope by @drsilverfish.

3. The Dean “keep it” parallels, the first one that came to my mind was Arwen (another human+ / eternal being who decided to relinquish immortality couple):

Aragon: this belongs to you. Arwen: keep it, it was a gift… it is mine to give to whom I will, like my heart.

But also all the other ‘gift’ tropes, the standard romantic trope that when a couple breaks up you return the gifts.... I think Cas wasn’t sure he was going to be forgiven, after Dean’s outburst in the war room, so he goes to return the cassette, but Dean does forgive him nearly instantaneously, which actually makes it even worse that he has to steal the colt straight after...

5. The difference between Sastiel and Destiel again emphasised, more and more this season. I don't think I even have to detail this, just, basically the whole episode shows this.

6. This magnificent gifset by @magnificent-winged-beast which shows the difference between Dean’s angst at actually watching the colt get destroyed and the potential killing of Cas...

Slight aside - Performing!Dean. 

This magnificent gifset that shows Dean’s facade coming down, he doesn't even attempt to make it sound less ‘gay’ when he tells Sam that Cas came to his room, played him and took the colt from his secret hiding place under his pillow, he even looks down before he says it like he KNOWS how it is going to sound but says it anyway. 

source: @yourfavoritedirector.

And Sam doesn't even flinch. YES THANK YOU DABB, GLYNN & BERENS!

4. SO...WHY is Dean still doing everything he did for Cas during this episode and still defending him to Sam even though he appeared pissed and Cas repeatedly betrayed him?

Well, in 12x12 Cas said “I love you”, clearly understood by Dean (and Sam to be directed at Dean). There was no real reciprocation though from Dean, other than Dean family-zoning him and Sam’s fantastic “we are doing this for you, Cas”. 

So regarding Dean, Cas is hurt and believes it isn't reciprocated. Now Dean is pissed and still using the WE card at every turn, so what is a celestial being to do? Cas assumes this is the end, that there is no hope, he returns the mixed tape. BUT Dean says no keep it, this is NOT the end. 

Cas understands that this is therefore not the end, but it is complicated. He explains that he wanted to “come back with a win for you.... for myself”. He wants this for Dean and for himself, this is very important, everything he is doing now and in the future is NOT all about Dean, there is his own agency and morality involved here too.

For Cas, when it comes to it, he wants this reciprocation of his love of course, but right now he has bigger fish to fry and really he wants to protect Sam and Dean and save the world. 

Now, going back to the “what the hell is wrong with you man?” followed by an awkward silence.... and where Cas then goes to return the gift. Yes, Cas feels that he has said his piece in 12x12 and is rebuffed, but meanwhile Dean is struggling with what Cas has said and everything else that is going on. He has a lot on his plate, not only Cas but his own personal history, his deep seated issues that he is clearly working on this season (see all the performing!Dean facade crumbling meta going around), his issues around his mother, the BMoL, Lucifer, the nephilim.... I mean that is a lot for an emotionally healthy person let a lone DEAN WINCHESTER.

Dean is trying to say / show how he feels he’s just rubbish at it, but he's getting better!

“We?” “Yes dumbass, WE.” This is his forgiveness. And it is betrayed just moments later. But does this stop him trusting Cas again? NO.

THIS IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. For their dynamic, to show that they still do ultimately trust each other.

EVEN AFTER EVERYTHING DEAN STILL DEFENDS CAS TO SAM!

Oh, and I just need to add how desperate I am for Sam to turn to Dean soon and just say “No, Dean, this is between you and Cas, stop bringing me into this”. PLEASE I SWEAR I WILL BE GOOD! I mean, how repeated, consistent and out of place it was (I mean, not only to shippers, I think anyone would think it was out of place the way it was portrayed in their personal conversation in Dean’s room) - this has got to be addressed, no?!

 5. A better way

So. What does this mean moving forwards?

Well, firstly, I have moved from being 85% sure Destiel would be endgame to about 95% sure. Lets be real. This episode cements this. Whether you like it or not, it’s happening.

So, what is the better way?

Overall, it seems that Dabb wants to move things forwards. And his key points all season are Free Will, breaking from past repressions and negative influences, moving forwards with what the characters choose and want for their endgame and for sure now endgame Destiel.

I have in the past speculated about quite a lot of stuff, some right and some... still to be seen and some not right, but the overall arc speculation that I saw foreshadowed since early season 12 is RIGHT ON TRACK.

Now, the question is will Dabb go backwards and go to the old, standard SPN ways where probably Dean and Cas will be separated, Cas will be wrong again in his trust in the nephilim - it WILL be evil (rehash of s6 and s8) and he will need to be ‘broken’ from the mind control by Dean in a stronger crypt scene etc etc etc.

Or will he move forwards, onto a “better way”? Will we get another s11 ‘happy ending’? Where it appears all good but there is still stuff going on behind the scenes for s13... Or maybe a not so happy ending but that ultimately will be resolved happily? 

Maybe the baby has it’s grace removed (so glad this is an option it was driving me insane that they hadn't mentioned it by now!) OR it’s not evil at all! it’s the ANTI-anti-Christ, it chose Cas because he is Lucifer’s mirror in that he LOVES Humanity. I mean, the whole point of the show is agency, free will and not being forced to follow the result of your parentage / past ....especially this season with Sam and Dean’s arcs....

Maybe human!Cas, potential hunter Daddies, Cas staying at home calling Dean while he's out on MOTW hunts with Sam being all “Dean there’s poop everywhere, I’m sorry it got on your favourite shirt, but please please come home this is so hard!” “OK babe, don't worry, we’ll be back tomorrow, the case was a milk run!” when actually Dean nearly died and Sammy saved the day and.... etc because really? what are we supposed to think from that motel scene? With Cas smiling all cute and using the world “righteous” when talking about the kids future guardian?! (and Kelly survives if we are going to be extra nice).

Maybe Lucifer will die / be dealt with and it is the MoL that are the big bad next year.....aiding the overall future arc of TFW as leaders of the MoL/Hunter collaboration (Chuck I hope so).

Or will it be a mix of the two?

Well my money is on that it will be a mix....  

DABB IS SHOWING US THE FUTURE Y’ALL. AND THE FUTURE IS BRIGHT.

[potentiality-26]

What I’m Writing

Do Dis: List all the things you’re currently working on in as much or little detail as you’d like, then tag some friends to see what they’re working on. This can be writing, art, vids, gifsets, whatever. 

I was tagged by @zombiisheep!  I’ve had to tweak the formula somewhat to fit my particular process. 

Tagging: I feel like most people have either already done this or been just tagged, but if you’re reading this and you want to do it, do it and tag me so I can see!  I will tag @futuredescending, though, mainly for expressing an interest in some of the fics that I list here.

(I put it under a read more because wow, it got long.  All the fics are for Kingsman, most are Hartwin but some not)

Fics I’m Actually Writing Editing/Reworking Now

- The Hartwin fic I previewed in my latest Sunday Six.  As you could probably tell from that, it involves Eggsy waking up in the hospital wing with Harry at his side and thinking he must be hallucinating, but I think I’ve done a fun twist on it.  Both amnesia and possible time travel are involved.  It’s already jossed by the trailer, but such is life.  Posted!

- A short(ish) fic also jossed by the trailer.  I wondered what (if anything) Merlin and/or Roxy might have done to keep the other Kingsman agents from doing what Harry did when Valentine turned the SIM cards on.  I came up with the idea of Amelia being assigned to get as many of them as possible somewhere safe, and discovering that Harry isn’t dead in the process.  It’s mainly focused on the interactions between her and Harry (and the other Kingsman), but there’s Amelia/Roxy (Roxelia?) and Hartwin in the background.  Posted!

- A companion to the above that picks up in Eggsy’s POV where the previous fic left off.  Mainly Hartwin with a side-order of Eggsy + Roxy friendship.  It’s shorter than I want it to be right now, so further shippy stuff might happen.  Maybe a little Merlin/Tilde?  Who knows.  Posted!  (Also two more originally unplanned sequels here and here, one from Harry’s POV and the other from Roxy’s.)

Fics That I’m Returning To Soon Making Slow But Sure Progress On

Note: if anyone reading this sees a fic (or two or five) that they would desperately like to see ASAP, please feel free to say so and I’ll try to put on a little more steam!

- A superpowers AU.  Pretty much every character has powers and appears in this fic, but the core group all live in a mansion together and work as private investigators.  It’s Merlin’s POV, but he’s a telepath with boundary issues so there’s quite a bit of Hartwin, Roxelle, and Percilot going on in the background.  Some Jamal/Ryan/Tilde also seems to be happening?  

- A Merhartwin(ish) fic.  In it Merlin is aro and he and Harry have a friends with benefits thing going on that really works for them.  The fic is mainly about the three of them figuring how Eggsy now fits into it.  It’s been tricky to make sure it isn’t too Hartwin + 1, but I really relate to Merlin in this fic so I think I can do him justice. 

- A Hartwin Angel Eggsy/Demon Harry AU that I actually started work on before Hope and Good Intentions, but it got stalled.  Hopefully I’ll figure out where I’m going with it soon.

- A Hartwin fic where Harry is the writer of a successful series of spy novels and he’s receiving threats.  Eggsy gets hired as his bodyguard and would you believe it they fall in love.  There’s a twist here but I don’t want to spoil it (how I will tag the story without spoiling it I do not currently know). 

- A Hartwin (+ Roxlin) regency AU.  Harry is a gentleman and war hero who takes Eggsy and his mother and sister under his wing.  It’s not based on any specific story from that period but the vibe is there, lots of slow burn and misunderstandings.  Also gay marriage is totes a thing in this universe because what is the genre without overwrought marriage proposals?

- A Hartwin fic based on the Star Trek: Voyager episode Shattered.  Different parts of Kingsman HQ are locked in different time periods.  Eggsy has to find a way to fix it, and he teams up with a version of Harry who is roughly his age and also another Galahad from the future. 

- A young Merlahad fic where Merlin is a scientist working for a potentially evil organization.  Harry is hired as his new muscle, but there’s more to him than meets the eye. 

- A Harry/Roxy (Harroxy?) marriage of convenience fic.  Harry needs a wife for Reasons.  He and Roxy get hitched and find it works for them.  Posted!

- An A/B/O AU with Harry/Eggsy/Merlin/Roxy (I know right?).  It’s alpha!Roxy’s POV because I always see people talking about the cool potential of lady alphas in this trope but I’ve never actually read a fic about one.  There’s lots of everyone figuring out their individual relationships and also how they work together as a group.  

- A Merwin-to-Merhartwin fic.  This is really just me trying to work through my hangups about Merwin in fic form, and though they’re both really crazy about Harry the story is largely about them figuring things out together while Harry’s busy being... like... Catholic (it makes sense in the fic).   

Fics That I Keep Putting Off 

Note: some of these are actually closer to finished than the ones above, but I’m just not feeling the mojo for whatever reason so they’re stalled.  Do feel free to poke me about any one of them too though.

- A 5 + 1 style Hartwin fic about the many times Harry and Eggsy get mistaken for a couple before they actually are.  I ended up putting a ton of my dog test angst and like all the PTSD in it, so it’s way less fluffy than that summary makes it sound.  There’s also some D/s.  IDEK. 

- A Hartwin magical realism AU where everyone has a fairy godparent who gives them a “gift” at some point in their lives.  That background is really just window dressing in a fic that’s mainly about Harry being a virgin.  Don’t ask me why that happened. 

- An established Merlahad fic about Merlin coming to terms with losing Harry and then finding him again.  It’s also jossed by the trailer but maybe it doesn’t have to be?  I don’t know.  I’ve mainly been putting off finishing it because I have some scenes written for a Merhartwin sequel to it, and in a perfect world I’d like to know where I was going with that before I took this one any further. 

- A Harroxy fic about Harry and Roxy being regular mission partners and eventually more than that.  It’s planned as part of a larger Harry/Eggsy/Roxy OT3 series, and therefore slow going. 

- A Hartwin Cinderella AU set in the Jupiter Ascending universe.  That makes sense in my head.  I also have a Gazelde The Little Mermaid sequel in mind, a Sleeping Beauty one with Eggsy and Gazelle being BFFs and saving their respective spouses, and a Beauty and the Beast one maybe with Roxlin. 

- A Hartwin soulmate AU?  Actually I’ve got three different Hartwin soulmate AUs.  One of them is like my soulmate magnum opus that starts before the first movie and then goes through it and changes the events quite a bit.  I’m thinking I’ll save it until after TGC because a) it’ll probably take that long to finish it anyway and b) since the plot of TSS is tweaked by it anyway, I could carry that through to the second movie and use it as a fix-it if necessary.  The other two are shorter, one set in the same universe as my James Bond fic Heartlines, and the other featuring amnesiac Harry posted here.

- Even more amnesiac Harry and/or time travel Hartwin fics.  I’m going to try to focus on just one or two of each, but I really can’t decide which.  I won’t go into detail about every single one since this is already so long, but feel free to ask for more info if you’re curious.  I’m always happy to cry about all my WIPs. 

- Two D/s AU fics, one Hartwin and one Merhartwin.  The first is classic dom Harry/sub Eggsy and largely mission related.  The other has switch Merlin, sub Harry, and dom Eggsy; it has quite a bit of pining Merlin, but in the end it’s very smutty.  I’m going to try to focus my energy on just one, but I haven’t decided which. 

I’ve also got a ton of shorter stories in the works, some sequels, and even more long WIPs, but these are the big ones I’m mainly hoping to get done with before we’re all old.

[elizabethrobertajones]

I recently came across this blog that was very anti Dean/destiel. This was apparently because Dean supposedly was "an abusive person". Particularly towards Cas. Personally, I ship it, like.. a lot, but I scrolled down and I have to say that I read some valid points on that blog. Dean really treats him like shit sometimes and like, I could in some way understand why they thought of dean/cas's relationship like that. What's your opinion on this, like, do you think of Dean as abusive towards Cas?

If it was a Cas blog, those are all valid points, and you just let that go no matter how much you might stan for Dean :P Treat it as a free exercise in being zen towards your fellow humans and not thinking shit at them. Cas stans have been through enough, I was in fandom in season 10, I remember watching that despair >.>

(On the other hand there are some people who hate every aspect of the show at this point and are just completely fatigued with caring about it and may have a “Cas deserves better” line - but also hate 99% of everything that happens on screen so much that every aspect of the show is problematic garbage, which, of course, includes Destiel being an abusive trainwreck of a ship before you get to the fans romanticising every punch they throw at each other while gobbling up the queerbaiting and so on and so on)

There are some anti blogs that talk up it being abusive and whether they actually don’t ship it for that reason or not is a lot more blurry and (you can guess by the company they seem to keep) they might have got there via just finding something to “disprove” the ship or to justify hating it. In that case, long angry posts about why it’s so terrible are pretty much loudly agreeing with each other, and maybe hoping someone who ships it will stumble on the post and be convinced their ship is bad and they should feel bad. These same people will argue the ship is homophobic and its fans are homophobic, as well as abuse apologists, racist, whatever, because making a ship out to be unethical is a great way to subtly conduct a ship war while giving yourself high ground. It’s why when stuff like the cucumber water debate blew up, they were accusing us of being homophobic and saying drinking vegetable water made you gay, as if we are the racist uncle who thinks wearing a pink shirt means you’re a “pansy” or something, and that this line of homophobic reasoning is why we think Dean is gay and that they don’t stereotype people.

And there are people who genuinely don’t like the ship whatever angle they approach it because they feel it’s abusive in the sort of way where again you just respect that it makes them feel that way because it upsets or triggers them.

I’m now sure I sound like the next thing out of my mouth is going to be “so I guess Destiel is abusive then” but it’s a big fandom and different groups of people have different versions of the story :P 

Lots of rambling about this under the cut:

When I was still fairly new to the fandom I stumbled on a Sam blog that was arguing with a great many examples of how Dean was abusive and of course sympathising with Sam in every fight and turning pretty much every interaction between them into a microaggression. I just wondered how you live like that and still watch the show? Like, if I found something so problematic I couldn’t even watch the 2 main characters who are onscreen all the time interact without getting upset every time one of the opens their mouth, I would just stop watching it. I *have* watched stuff where I then stopped watching because the characters pissed me off.

(I think this show has a secret magic formula to make you extremely over-invested in the characters to the point it’s like fictional character crack, and I may only stop writing meta for this show when I figure it out, take the secret with me, and go write a ton of novels with characters you’re similarly loyal too :P)

Anyway. There’s tons of people who don’t think Sam is abusive to Dean or Dean is abusive to Sam, and after I spent a day or so feeling really weird and uncomfortable about liking Dean so much when he was apparently awful I realised it had never affected the way I watched the show before, and that it had never troubled me about it either, because I never saw it that way. 

When *I* thought about it, I thought Sam was very resilient, loved his brother, and had his clear boundaries, such as stomping off in 7x06 when he found out about Dean killing Amy or in season 9 after discovering the Gadreel thing, setting down very clear rules with Dean about where he stood after Dean crossed the line, and that clearly to Sam, he knows his own self, and 99% of the time, he’s fine with what Dean does in the grander scheme. Maybe they have fights and Sam is upset or angry with him for a while but in general if Sam thought he was being mistreated, he’s shown he can identify that for himself and get out and look after his own interest, and return when he and Dean can reach an understanding and have grown as characters from it. (I think altogether too much debate about characters treats them as if they have never grown when we see them learn and change all the time and are quantifiably different from how they started) 

I think season 10 was the only time it crossed too far into really seeming a bit too domestic violence-y because of course Dean with the Mark of Cain had an ancient brother killing curse and Sam was still living under the same roof trying to help him, after being nearly murdered under said roof already once that year. But it was all extremely dark and fucked up for everyone, so unless I was stanning Sam, again it wouldn’t upset me any more than any other character’s messed up part in that arc, especially as Sam had his own part in being portrayed in a really negative light, and it seemed like Carver just wanted us to hate both of them at times.

Anyway by the time I ever read anyone complaining about how Destiel was abusive I’d already had to realise through thinking about that (and I read that before season 10 aired) that how we read characters and their behaviour to each other is as subjective as anything else on this show. 

If we really, deeply care about Dean, Cas can be seen as abusive - that alley scene in 5x18 put people off because Cas attacked Dean pretty much out of personal anger when he could have just knocked him out with a touch and dragged his sorry butt home, and it made Cas seem cold and cruel to Dean, that he could turn on him like that and not care. Season 6 gives no respite to make Cas seem nice again, and then he goes and breaks Sam’s wall. By 7x17 when he comes back and Dean is all teary eyed about it and has the trenchcoat still you’re like why do you even fucking care, Dean? All he’s ever done is hurt you and Sam and break the world! and Dean’s suddenly in this position where he seems strung along loving someone who has only ever hurt them and been cold to them and his investment seems greater than Cas’s. And then as the story goes on, Cas’s attempts to redeem himself and apologise come across cold and calculating or emotionally manipulative and self-serving and yikes we’ve made it halfway through Carver era and Cas hasn’t done one single thing to earn Dean’s love or to seem truly selfless about his own. (I can’t be bothered to keep strawmanning this but honestly I have seen people who hate Cas argue the latter part, and people who never started shipping Destiel argue the first half about season 5 & 6 and why it never made sense to them)

I think it’s a violent, awful show where people do violent, awful things to each other. Sam and Dean already mutually did enough shit to make it easy to argue either was abusive to the other before Cas was around (eugh, extreme Dean girls hating Sam always feels like such a betrayal but they say some shocking stuff about Sam and how much of a useless whiny leech on Dean he is >.>) and Cas showed up also angry and a creature of violence, built in their exact mould, and they all kicked off from there. 

At some point you’ve excused enough of this interpersonal violence and overblown emotional drama (which lends itself to manipulation and grand statements about betrayal or whatever) to watch the show and root for the characters and keep with them for up to 12 years and if you still LIKE the show and the characters, then you may have to consider when and how stuff would be abusive and be aware of not romanticising it, but you can still watch it and enjoy it and NOT find it abusive for your own take on it.

(I tag all discussion of Destiel crypt scene/mirrors of said scene, as “crypt scenes for ts” including gifsets that use their busted up faces in passing, for that reason, so people who find it abusive can selectively avoid it, and as a reminder to self that people see it that way and never to let myself think that these depictions of love breaking through violence are unproblematic. It’s an inherently problematic trope, and saying oh they were controlled by something else and it was romantic that they managed not to kill each other, is just too close to excusing someone who ACTUALLY hits someone and then saying, oh, but they managed to stop themselves from hurting them any more than they did and put down their fists after a while because they LOVE them. And the trope has been used 2 times with Cas and once with Dean so this isn’t saying either of them is more abusive than the other (especially as 10x22 was by far the most shocking, and, as I said about Sam, the Mark of Cain had been a domestic abuse metaphor the whole time))

But - and here’s the big but to literally everything above: if you still LIKE the characters and enjoy their relationship and it DOESN’T upset you too much to watch and you acknowledge where it can be seen as abusive but these things haven’t put you off, then there’s nothing harmful about either shipping them, OR saying you DON’T THINK THE SHIP IS ABUSIVE. And genuinely not thinking it is, overall.

I don’t, and for the same reason I explained about Dean not abusing Sam, especially that Cas still has agency and that his whole story has been about choosing the Winchesters over an INFINITELY more abusive family that HAS done all that shit to him and he’s been struggling to leave including the whole split loyalty still loving for them despite how much they hurt him thing and always being sucked back in despite how he must know by now angel stuff ALWAYS ends with him being hurt and angels dying. Picking Dean as his family over them seems a no-brainer.

For one thing, I don’t feel like there’s any malice in their day-to-day interactions, and that while Dean can be rough and rude to Cas, he doesn’t do it to exert control over him, JUST out of cruelty, or anything else abusive, just a pattern of “when Dean is sad or angry he will say insensitive and horrible things to the people around him” - because he’s human and messed up and angry/miserable (pick your week) and doesn’t think he even deserves their love half the time when he’s really trying to drive people off (his side of 5x18 :P). Your reaction to this pattern might depend on how you’ve been treated in the past and if it rings unfortunately too close to actual abuse to you, but without that trigger I think it is not impossible to read it as not aimed to control or emotionally manipulate the people around him, but normal expressions of emotion, with no intent to harm, and if you read the reactions of the people around him, no lasting damage to them as if his actions were abusive (e.g. Sam doesn’t get flinchy when Dean drinks or gets angry, as if emulating someone raised by a violent drunk; Cas doesn’t react when Dean yells at him but unless he’s in a very bad place for other reasons, gives shit right back to Dean and stands up for himself)

For another, Dean against Sam with the Mark was 100x worse than he ever was to Cas. 9x22 at the end showed a huge difference in how he treated them, and I don’t think that was putting on a nice face for Cas - I think that was meant to convey the Mark twisting Dean up AGAINST Sam and showing that he’d been poisoned against him, but it hadn’t affected how Dean felt about Cas, because he is not his brother, and the curse therefore doesn’t affect them. In the end he did attack Cas, and it’s their absolute low point, but it took a season and a half to hollow Dean out that far, as part of an episode showing in every way that we’d lost all parts of Dean that were good, while Dean took like 15 episodes from Mark of Cain to chasing Sam with a hammer. (And, of course, demon!Dean still retained parts of what made Dean good, making him at least complex, though obviously not “good” any more - Dean in 10x22 was genuinely more evil, empty and broken than when he was a demon, to compare Dean choosing to kill the kid with Dean selectively choosing to kill Lester because he thought his wife didn’t deserve it, never mind all his angsty moping and still deciding what he was and so on, suggesting he was struggling to let go of those last human parts.) Anyway, I didn’t think Dean had any sustained aggression against Cas and the arc was way more about a threat to Sam from Dean - as late as 10x20 Dean was still retaining his humanity and struggling to help Cas and do nice things on his behalf and play cute with Claire, while the season in general kept Cas away from Dean and I think that was a good idea in hindsight, because it both facilitated Dean’s descent (Cas keeps him on the level) and meant Cas didn’t have to take the brunt of Dean’s Mark-related dickishness. Aka, avoiding including Cas properly in any sort of sustained domestic abuse arc with Dean. In 10x18 they play happy families with Charlie, and it’s a fleeting GOOD thing with nice family dynamics. 10x21 laid it on thick that Sam was alone with someone who could swing around to violence and made it clear it was a domestic abuse metaphor between them. (Which, again, in Dean’s defence for THIS relationship, was a metaphor for one season, and I don’t think reflective on how he treats Sam normally, at all.)

As for Dean’s general behaviour, you have to forgive incident by incident on the assumption that Dean isn’t holding up a sustained campaign of abuse against Cas, but considers him an equal but who he often has GENUINE grievances against (and also that Cas is not a woobie and can take it - we may see him hurt a lot but he remains resilient). In season 6, Cas is shifty and won’t come to help them - you could argue Dean’s feeling entitled to that, but he’s upset because Cas is supposed to be a friend and his responses are underwhelming, and, importantly, Dean doesn’t feel like Cas is sharing when he WANTS to help. Dean can tell something’s up but Cas won’t even get into a real conversation with it, and wouldn’t have let Dean help anyway. So he’s pissed off at the start and gets MORE pissed off along the season, so he snaps at Cas and wheedles him to come help not because he feels like Cas is only good to help, but he’s fed up with Cas not coming, being weird, and being unhelpful, when they’re SUPPOSED to be friends. 

I don’t even know how to explain how Dean acts towards Cas in season 7 if someone doesn’t get that the repercussions of Cas breaking Sam’s wall aren’t still clear in Dean’s mind, and he can’t talk to Cas about it because he’s never quite himself and ready to have the talk about these consequences. (I mean he sort of can at the end of the season but they’re aggressively not listening to each other even while trying to communicate) When Dean snaps at Cas, he’s frustrated, and angry and missing his friend, and upset on Sam’s behalf and it’s a mess, he’s not just yelling “no one cares that you’re broken” because he wants to hurt Cas. HE cares. He’s so fucked up about it that the entire end of the season rests on him reconciling with Cas, and so they need to show him unable to do that first… There’s more to it than just collecting a moment of Dean yelling at Cas or that bit where he throws the board game on the floor despite how it looks. They’re in the middle of the fight and Cas has as much of his part of it as Dean does, though he’s in a vulnerable state and Dean’s approaching him with anger, Cas knows Dean’s the injured party - this is the arc that starts with “I’ll find some way to redeem myself to you” - and it’s totally fucked up but this is how it plays out with Dean’s reactions to Cas’s avoidance and consuming guilt that won’t even let him face the problem head on until the very last moment. Dean approaches Cas gently, Cas finally makes a gesture to help and in this way their last conversation when they go collect Baby puts them back on EQUAL footing. And before that they were unequal but from both directions - Cas was broken/had no memory, but also Cas had the burden to make it right with Dean and he wasn’t making that move. He fixes Sam, which is the huge important step one, but after that he is “only playing sorry” and the argument goes BOTH ways with the need to reconcile, which means all the pissiness is fair game, NOT Dean being cruel to Cas and kicking him while he’s down…

I suppose I could keep on rationalising stuff they do forever but these are the examples I see the most when reading about it, and I just don’t feel in MY interpretation of it, that Dean has ANY cruelty to Cas, or even a sustained threat to him. That’s not to minimise that Cas took a LOT of beatings over recent times and ended up feeling depressed and alone and with PTSD and so on, but I read this as a carelessness that Dean desperately would not want to inflict on Cas if he knew and understood (and therefore could have reached out to him properly), and that at every opportunity when he even partially understands he reaches out and cares for Cas (like 8x08 and “talk to me” or many of the less dramatic heart to hearts where he tries to understand Cas or to reassure or comfort him about stuff, as well as generally attempting to apologise - I think he apologises 3 times for kicking Cas out the Bunker, though he can only truly repent after telling the whole truth, it ate him up and he WANTED it to not be this way and felt it was out of his control because from the last scene of 9x01 when Gadreel suddenly declares Sam can’t know, Dean immediately loses any control he thought he had over what happens next)…

Anyway, people are ALWAYS going to have opinions or still ship it but think some of my arguments don’t work and some of these examples were abusive but it won’t stop them shipping based on a more ideal version of the relationship, even divorcing from canon altogether and shipping the AU perfect version of the ship where it can always be happy and they never have the issues they do in canon. Some people will ship it because they LIKE that element of it, for one reason or another, and there will be people who write fic embracing really dark elements. 

When it comes to reading what others have to say about ANYTHING you like, you have to decide for yourself how much it affects how you see it, and you have to remember people are coming at everything with their personal biases and feelings. You CAN argue Destiel is abusive - you can probably argue most ships are, especially ones with canon interaction, and especially LOTS of canon interaction because tropes like lying and manipulation (even gentle lies and manipulation) are rife in fiction. Writers make characters fight for drama, and once they do, someone’s going to find supporting the characters together is inherently problematic and awful. 

If you make it this far in canon and HAVEN’T found the ship abusive in YOUR reading of it and based on YOUR emotional reactions to everything that happened on screen so far, then you are probably safe to keep shipping it at least on YOUR terms. 

However, I would listen to what people say and make up your own mind just because if they’re bringing up things that are genuinely unsettling, you should probably work out if you support that or not, and if you ship at a safe remove (e.g. “the crypt scene etc were abusive and I don’t like it but generally I find the ship okay and they’ve made attempts to mend that and aren’t continuing in that behaviour so I can still ship them in canon but don’t want to see anything romanticising the bad bits” or “I find the things they’ve done in canon unsettling enough I would rather ship them in fanon and try to enjoy what they do in canon just for the good bits like when they hold hands” or whatever). As long as you are respectful to other people and understand WHY they see things the way they do, and don’t try and tell people who are genuinely hurt that things AREN’T hurtful. 

(I’m not saying you would, but there are arguments in fandom I really don’t think we should be having as arguments, and this is one of them :P)