#no way jon is a bastard

[sherlokiness]

Isn't RLJ a false marriage? Won't jon still be a bastard then?

Elia and Rhaegar had healthy children, legit kids so won't Ned respect that marriage like any northern one? Also elia's marriage was not under any coercion or dubious consent like Lyanna's supposed one was. And valyrian polygamy was outlawed for years, so ned should never see it as a real marriage.

(thanks for ur earlier answer by the way)

Hi, anon. Thanks for the ask! It was no biggie.

I would like you to read the comment from Ygrain in this thread. The biggest proof of RLJ marriage is the presence of the Kingsguard at the ToJ. I'll post a shorter version of it down below.

"I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

The KG consider Robert a usurper.

When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

So the KG knew that Aerys is dead and denounces Jaime as a KG. We could also infer that they weren't with Aerys when Jaime killed his king.

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

Ned tells them the remaining Targ forces have bent the knees and was surprised they weren't there.

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

To which Arthur replied that their knees do not bend easily yet when Ned approached earlier, Oswell Whent was on his knee. Taken together, it's a clue that they have already bent the knee to someone.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

Why aren't the KG with Viserys the supposed king if they're really so honorable? Their duties would demand them to get him to safety.

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

They've ignored the insult of Viserys being called a prince and admits he doesn't have a KG.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

So Willem is a good man and it's okay to be with the prince but not them because they're the KG. And what is the primary duty of the KG? To protect and defend the King.

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

So the KG does not flee and they would have defended the king then(Aerys) and that's what they're doing now(Jon).

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Below are the exact points from the thread:

The Lord Commander is citing the Kingsguard’s vow as the reason that they must stay. He has decided that all three would remain, and we must presume that the reason is to protect the king. Several things contribute to this conclusion:

The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties.

Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.

Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys.

Ser Gerold’s decision to keep Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king (the primary purpose of the Kingsguard) if the king is present at the tower.

Ned knows that these men were honoring their Kingsguard vow. There is no other vow that Ned is ever aware of. He thinks of these three as the epitome of honor and skill. A shining example for the world.

Also, all the jokes about bastards and princes GRRM does with Joffrey and Jon won't work if they're both bastards.

[gammija]

tiefling jon's first day at the Archives

[smultronviol]

Ppl going "waaahh unpopular opinion but Alice is kind of annoying and obnoxious and I don't think I'd like be her friend irl" is so funny to me bc like.

God forbid a cast of characters be multifaceted and have actual flaws and unpleasant aspects other than "grr angsty hero" and "whoops i'm so clumsy". Sometimes character dynamics and arcs need to be prioritized above "who would i personally be niceys with irl"

2. bro just WAIT until you hear about season 1 jon lol

[nightswatchdisbandmentera]

In the whole “what would the Starks do if Jon’s parentage ever came to light” debate, the most interesting figure to me is Robb Stark. Ned is already caught between a rock and a hard place: duty and love to both his king and his sister’s son, though he already committed treason once to save Lyanna’s boy. Catelyn the embodiment of the Tully words, “family, duty, honor”, is fiercely loyal to her husband and children - but not to Jon. So if she was ever put in a position to choose, it’s obvious what she would do. Then there’s Robb. He’s his father’s heir, his mother’s pride. He’s named after Robert Baratheon, the ruling king of the seven kingdoms, as a testament to his father’s upbringing and love for his friend. But Jon is his brother; his best friend; his greatest companion. Where Ned’s choice would leave him conflicted, Robb doesn’t share the same loyalty to the king. So when forced to fight for the crown or his brother’s life, he’d obviously choose his brother. Which would be an interesting twist of fate. Ned and Robert rebelled for their lives many years prior. How interesting it would be for the boy who bears Robert’s name and the boy who bears Ned’s face to rise in rebellion again.

[ladystoneboobs]

no of fence to jon snow fans who for some reason care about his exact age, but these discussions just annoy me no end. not only bc there's no way any weirwood flashbacks bran has to rhaegar/lyanna will come with time/datestamps, but also bc there's always comments like this:

SEVERAL turns of the moon (ie, months)?! have these people never seen a human baby before or just have no concept of their ages? even if we take into account travel time from the toj to wf, meaning jon was not a newborn too fresh out the oven when catelyn and robb arrived, there's still a difference between a newborn and a 3mo and an even bigger difference between those infants and an older baby 5-7mo. there's very good reasons these lines were cut. whatever birthdates can be worked out internally for jon and robb from when they're first mentioned as 15 and 16 don't matter in the end, bc grrm doesn't care about a consistent timeline and the actual text of catelyn's pov and ned's convo with robert about cheating on her should outweigh any guesstimates about jon's official nameday wrt robb's. catelyn may not have cared for jon, but she would sure as hell have noticed his nameday if it came before robb's and made him ned's firstborn. if jon's birthday canonically came before robb's then either ned's cover story would not involve adultery (not impossible for him to sire a bastard before his wedding), or he'd just give jon a new nameday along with his new name to fit the adultery lie. it makes no sense for him to lie about one and not the other, undermining the big lie with a little public clue of his story not adding up. whatever else she was as a stepmother, cat wasn't stupid and a bastard who was actually the eldest son being raised alongside her trueborn heir could be an even bigger insult than whether he was born of adultery or not.

BUT, the unknowability of jon's true birthday is not the only reason this annoys me, it's bc this is all based on the assumption that jon must be older since rhaegar/lyanna ran off together before ned married cat, as if both boys must have been conceived asap as robb canonically was when his parents consummated their marriage. and that's not how human reproduction works! even if you don't understand how fast babies grow in the first year, you should know that people who get pregnant do so through ovulation cycles and a lucky sperm finding an egg and all that, not just immediately getting knocked up as soon as one has p-in-v sex for the first time. not unless you only know mean girls sex ed where if you have sex you will get pregnant and die. (even tho lyanna did die, there's plenty of canon examples where pregnancy did not lead straight to death. also examples of people who did not get pregnant right away and even some who are/were sexually active and childless without always having moon tea on hand.) we can't know how long lyanna was having sex before that sperm+egg match happened or even how long she was with rhaegar before losing her technical virginity. if they were married, doesn't it make sense to think they didn't consummate their relationship until the wedding night either? that's the only leverage there is to ensure a status as wife rather than just mistress.

and while i just said grrm doesn't care about exact timelines and a lot is still foggy surrounding the rebellion and esp rhaegar, there is one timemarker wrt robert's rebellion he voluntarily threw in, time and time again: that stannis was besieged at storm's end for almost a whole year. that siege, which mind you, did not match the duration of the entire war. it only started after robert won his battles at gulltown and summerhall, returned to storm's end, and then went out and lost the battle of ashford, leaving his homeland open to the reachermen. the same siege which only ended when ned made a detour there after the sack of king's landing, before going to the toj. even if lyanna may not have given birth that exact day ned found her, she could only be waiting in that bloody bed for weeks at the most, not months. so if rhaegar knocked her up the very same night he carried her off and jon was still a newborn when ned found her after the siege of storm's end had ended, wouldn't that mean lyanna was pregnant for well over a year? that's not how human pregnancy works either! so, maybe that's proof that jon and robb, whichever order they were actually born in, were actually very close in age as babies, much closer than if they were both conceived asap.

and really, jon's actual birthdate does not matter imho, when he was raised not just as the bastard to robb's trueborn heir, but with robb also known by catelyn and the world as ned's firstborn (which he was, in any case, as jon was ned's nephew by birth). what difference could a birthdate before robb's make (even were there some means of discovery) after ned, cat, and robb are all dead? if one is looking only at his birth parents then he's only a firstborn child on lyanna's side, but definitely a second son on rhaegar's side. maybe he was always meant to be a second son with a not much older half-brother! even if the aegon fka young griff is not in fact rhaegar's son, he'll still be known as aegon vi targaryen, meaning jon will never be known as any father's elder son. if i may reference mean girls again, it's not going to happen.

[fromtheseventhhell]

I really hate how people act like Jon becoming King is him "usurping" his siblings when that's an unfair stigma that's followed him his entire life for being a bastard. It just blows my mind that people ignore Jon's own thoughts and wishes on the topic. Well, guess what? Robb named him as his heir, he will have a legitimate claim to Winterfell, and he will be part of discussions on who will rule. Even without that, it's very likely that some of his siblings would support him as King. I just hate how the conversation around him becoming King is framed as some big betrayal.

[addamvelaryon]

Jon Snow essentially has 3 different reputations throughout Terros:

The first one is as a hardass. This reputation is well earned because Jon himself cultivates his own behaviour in such a way that he will be taken seriously. Due to his young age and his social status as a bastard, it became necessary for Jon to adjust his behaviour accordingly. Whether it’s the Mountain Clans or the Wildlings or the King’s Men, everyone at the Wall knows that Jon means business. Even across the sea, in the Free City of Braavos, they have such a view of him. He’s referred to as “the Black Bastard of the Wall”. His own friends are wary of him because of the way he starts acting once he’s elected Lord Commander.

The second reputation is quite unfair but he’s still viewed that way by some people: a traitor. Part of it does have to do with his time with the Wildlings/relationship with Ygritte. Though interestingly enough, the Wildlings also express sentiments that suggests they believe Jon betrayed them. But that’s not the only reason why characters consider Jon to be a treacherous individual. Even before he went beyond the Wall, he was viewed in a negative light, because of his father being declared a traitor. So the sins of the father are reflected in the son. There is of course the anti-bastardy stigma in Westeros as well and that too affects opinions on Jon. The Blackfish even accuses him of conspiring with the Lannisters, the enemies of his family!

The third reputation that Jon has came about completely unintentionally. People around Jon seem to view him as someone who sleeps around. This too is a clear result of their society’s derogatory opinion of bastards as being sexually promiscuous. When his Night Watch brothers insinuate that Sam or Satin are his lovers, they do it as an insult. Jon’s show of kindness towards his fellows who are also viewed negatively is turned against him by people believing there is some salacious intent behind Jon’s actions. Jon had only one lover and that was Ygritte. But his friendly interactions with other women, like Val or Alys, makes people (primarily other men who feel entitled to those women) suggest he must surely have fucked them. From Jon’s POV we can understand that in his interactions with Melisandre, he is very standoffish. But that’s not how it’s perceived by his Night Watch brothers. Jon himself acknowledges that they will whisper rumours about him.

[dirtytransmasc]

I need more selkie theon (and asha. I just think that would be a vibe. fuck the greyjoy sigil being a kraken for a moment and let them be seals) content.

like the opportunity to have theon's coat taken by ned when he's made his ward is right there and it is perfect and beautiful and tragic.

and you could build on that depending on the version of the selkie myth/story you're going off of (I personally love the song of the sea version of selkies for story writing). maybe he can't talk without it, maybe he gets sick, maybe his voice has magical properties of sorts.

I have this one concept in my head that I don't have the time to write, but it goes something along the lines of theon getting sick after years away from his coat and the stark kids have to find his coat and drag his slowly dying ass to the bay of seals (cause y'know bay of seals and theon's a selkie so he'll turn into a seal... I thought it was creative).

also, in a lot of versions of selkies, when they get sick, their hair turns white, which is on brand for theon. they're also pretty, their stories are typically soaked to the bone in tragedy, they're normally held captive/tortured, amongst other things, which are also very on brand for theon.

and maybe you get some selkie to selkie telepathy of sorts, so when theon finally enter the water a seal again, asha books it to come find him, cause its been years since she's been able to feel him (I'm soft for them, I will create the most improbable and ridiculous scenario's to bring them together and for them to have soft sibling moments).

all and all, theon being a selkie is something I need more content of, please and thank you.

[throwawayasoiafaccount]

‘the black bastard of the wall’ moniker is the exact opposite of the ‘white wolf’ moniker and this perfectly highlights the irreconcilable differences between book Jon and show Jon

[navree]

people doing this whole "look at how rhaenys acted with corlys's bastard son vs how catelyn acted with jon snow" to demonize one or the other is weird because, like, maybe it's just me, but i think that catelyn and rhaenys had different reactions because they're different people in different situations.

[milesworld96]

IM SO PROUD OF THIS LIKE YYAALLLLLLL🤯🤯😩😩

I wanted to try drawing some new faces so yeah😋😋

[starkcontrasts]

*banging pots and pans* it's about aegon's dragon dream about a song of ice and fire!! it's about aegon flying north and torren stark, last of the winter kings until robb, kneeling and swearing his allegiance!!

*slamming open the cupboards* it's about how, generations later, jacaerys velaryon-targaryen flies north once more to treat with cregan stark!! it's about the pair becoming so close they swore an oath in blood as brothers, likely before the weirwood in a mix of both valyrian and northern ceremonial rites!!

*jumping up and down on the bed* it's about the pact of ice and fire and jace agreeing to marry his firstborn daughter to cregan's heir!! it's about jace dying in the gullet but cregan honoring their oath and seating jace's baby brother on the throne!!

*whispering to the side* it's about jace's dragon vermax being rumoured to have laid a clutch of eggs in the crypts of winterfell and winterfell itself possibly being built upon the body of an ice dragon

*screaming out the windows* it's about jace's great-great-however many greats-great nephew marrying(?) the firstborn daughter of house stark in an inversion of his and cregan's original pact!! it's about jon snow's birth, whether he is or isn't the prince who was promised, still being the culmination of centuries of valyrian and old god magic!!

[piratekenway]

Westeros is a world in the midst of a Stellaron disaster and the events of ASOIAF are the disaster growing worse and the Astral Express is going to have 500x the trouble they had on Jarilo-VI when they get there—

[bwaldorf]

when the show explicitly used criston's social class and him being dornish as a way people looked down on him (which in turn informs at least part of why he is the way he is) 🙂‍↕️ LIKE I'VE BEEN YAPPING ABOUT THIS THE WHOLE DAMN TIME!!! but y'all were too busy spewing boring lame 'crispy incel' comments to understand the nuance of his character... i need a damn medal and a cigarette for dealing with half the nonsense in this fandom

[sleazyjanet]

but if i snap I'M in the wrong

[nightswatchdisbandmentera]

Of Kings and Pigs

I did a post before about how GRRM connects Jon Snow to Westeros’ ruling kings through laughter, but today I want to do one on how Jon is connected to these rulers through the imagery of pigs…

Let’s start with Jon. He takes an arrow to the leg after defecting from the wildlings and notes:

I am bleeding like a butchered pig, he thought, but there was nothing to be done for it until the arrow was out.

- Jon V, ASOS

So now, let’s look at which kings in the story are compared to pigs, especially bloody ones.

The first king is Aerys II, Jon’s grandfather.

Beneath the empty eyes of the skulls on the walls, Jaime hauled the last dragonking bodily off the steps, squealing like a pig and smelling like a privy.

- Jaime II, ASOS

In my previous post, I noted that Jon and Aerys were linked through laughter. There, it is said that Jon laughed like a drunk or a madman. We know that his grandfather, King Aerys, is the madman but who is the drunk?

Well, that brings us to our next king, Robert Baratheon.

“Look at us, Ned,” Robert said. “Gods, how did we come to this? You here, and me killed by a pig. We won a throne together …”

- Eddard XV, AGOT

So we have a connection between Jon and two butchered kings who have sat upon the Iron Throne. But we have a more general connection with all the kings in Westeros:

The cooks were serving the meat course: five suckling pigs, skin seared and crackling, a different fruit in every mouth.

- Tyrion VIII, AGOT

The quote above seems to be foreshadowing for the coming war of the five kings. Each pig has a different fruit in its mouth in the same way that each king held a different region in the war.

So we have rulers occupying all of Westeros being connected to butchered pigs, and then we have the bastard boy Jon Snow - who, while unaware of his royal blood, is marked as KING by the narrative.