#post Thor 2011

[cherriiramen]

I feel like Thor and Loki would communicate more genuinely with body language than words, and that they did it so often that no other than themselves understand what each gesture means.

I imagine that Loki’s pride held him back from ever venting or admitting something was wrong. He HATED opening up. And you know what he loathed even more? That he WANTED to open up to Thor.

That Thor was really the only being who’d sit and listen. He hated that Thor still stood by his side after everything, because at one point, he felt he no longer deserved that sacred sanctuary he felt himself enveloped in whenever Thor was around.

But even so, he wished he had the words to speak to him. So he was blessed with the very rare gift of having someone like Thor, who, despite his sheer bluntness, learned to understand him through the simplest of gestures; eye contact. Loki’s eyes always spoke more than his words. They weren’t always twinkling with that little mischievous gleam, not even if he tried to cover it up. Almost like his mouth was saying one thing, and his eyes tried to say another.

Loki needn’t say a word; one simple look? Boom.

They’d sit alone, in a comfortable silence. Loki would try and fumble for words, but his tongue fails him and he falls silent again. Thor would just smile knowingly and wrap an arm around his back. He’d give Loki the freedom of speaking, and knowing him well, it was rare for Loki to go ahead and spit it out. But Thor never pushed it. He knew Loki only spoke when he was comfortable enough, so he didn’t want to embarrass him away from it.

Instead, he acted casual. Just a little softer. Have a little conversation far from the subject.

Thor would sometimes secretly act exaggeratedly blunt or stupid, just to get a laugh or a sarcastic remark out of Loki. And as much as Loki did his best to seem irritated, in times like these, he was always resisting the urge to smile.

And you know what? In those few minutes, the bitter memories of their complex relationship would wither away with the wind.

[abby118]

I know I don't talk a lot about how much I despise the series, Ragnarok, or IW, but know that's just because I don't want to give it the time of day. There are a myriad of things I disagree with and/or find downright offensive for the story as well as its characters. 

It's such a shame, but it's evident that the people responsible for the "sequels" knew fuck all about the narrative they were supposed to be presenting. They ended up making shoddy remakes and I can't wrap my head around how so many people are utterly blind to it. The sheer mischaracterisation of all the characters is astounding.

They threw away years worth of highly valuable backstory and, with that, any chances of elaborating on any of the of subjects they could've addressed, just to make everybody into their miserably written comic relief. It's disgusting and shows just how little respect the new creators hold for the fanbase (and essentially, their own creations).

I applaud every single one of you who have the mental energy to write these elaborate metas pointing out what went wrong. I've got a lot to say too, but I can't bring myself to do so and acknowledge it.

I'm so grateful there are still people who understand the characters and their story, you are deeply appreciated and I love seeing you 🖤💚

(PS- in case you haven't noticed I don't hesitate to block you so called fans of the post 2013 era, so if any of you end up seeing this, stay away from my blog. You will get blocked.)

[loonylupinblack3]

Loki: what's up guys? i'm back

Thor: what the- you can't be here. you're dead. i saw you die brother

Loki: death is a social construct

[musclesandhammering]

Just saw a post saying Odin is a reliable narrator in all the movies and the only time he’s ever told a lie is about Loki being adopted. Really.

Fighting with the urge to write a gigantic meta detailing all Odin’s shady shit.

[iamnmbr3]

in Thor 2011 Thor offers his hand to Loki when he thinks Loki is clinging to the edge of the Bifrost and needs help (though it turns out to be an illusion) - even though they are actively fighting at the time and Thor doesn't even know why Loki attacked him or what has caused Loki’s breakdown. That action is portrayed as heroic. 

In Thor Ragnarok Thor gloatingly stands over Loki and tortures him while he is completely helpless to defend himself in any way and then leaves him utterly incapacitated and writhing in agony. That action is ALSO framed as heroic and justified. 

Because both actions are framed positively by the narrative I feel like a lot of ppl don't notice or think about the vast difference between those actions and the resultant differences in both characterization and real world messaging.  

[thorarms]

Props to thor 2011 for using an old norse emphasis on oath as morality to subtly show thor as unfit to rule, like they fr had him swear an oath to protect the people of asgard and then showed him immediately breaking that oath like 5 minutes later

[blindtaleteller]

Question about medical care in Asgard… I'm talking about a case of Odinsleep/coma. How different do you think caring for a person in a coma would be on Asgard than on Midgard?

Gonna assume you're asking about the MCU as I answer this! 💚

With a Coma/Odinsleep .. Probably not too terribly different in act for the most part IF it's being treated like a regular coma; but incredibly different in aesthetic, and well.. it does get a little more iffy when you're talking about 'Odinsleep' in particular, even with what little we do know from what's shown and said about it on screen which I say by means of examples given, both canon and deleted from it.

Some things definitely do change if you take deleted scenes from Thor 2011 into account in particular though: as one of the things they removed entirely from existence in the cutting room in that movie, was something called 'healing stones.' They actually had two portions of scenes that they shot (one in the hospital after Jane ran him over, and one just prior to the final portion of the fight with the 'Destroyer' in New Mexico.) I'll slap them in here if I can find them out of my giant clips playlist of doom.

Sticking with just the canon though; and specifically with the regular coma treatment first? The first thing you have to take into account is that there are lots of different kinds of comas, and that even Earth-tech wise, some of them are going to be treated a little differently (short, long term, caused by external injury, caused by internal injury, trauma induced are a thing too.)

That said, the first thing we have on display as far as Asgard's medical goes, is something that unsurprisingly is a repeated major portion of their basic lore in the MCU: that they aren't gods; they're an elder race who have been themselves reaching into the cosmos for eons of generations even stretching back to at least near enough to the beginning of their universe well established enough then, to take note of the fact that the Infinity Stones made at the birth of that universe, were not made by either them, or by the other elder races like the Dark Elves, or the even older Tivan brothers: with single generations lasting as long as five thousand years.

Related to that is also the fact that they by the time in their universal timeline we do catch up with them: they are very clearly a warmongering/imperial colonialist society. Even before and likely during them, Odin made a generation of wars horrible enough to be called 'The Great Wars' among the lot that he and apparently Hela (who was clearly full grown --meaning she was anywhere between 20ish and 1000 years herself-- even in her mural depictions,) to spread his version of 'peace' through the removal of what other species he percieved as threats and competition (see Muspelheim, Jotunheim) going so far as to make certain they couldn't rebuild even their capitals.

Why is that important in this conversation? Because that also means including Bor and Asgard's previous generation five thousand years prior to 2013's invasion of the elves; they had been dealing with injury, illness and more among their own resulting from those battles: and yes during those thousands of years of conflict between Bor's crusade, and Odin's: they had lots and lots of extra time to improve both their tech, and any magic along those lines.

Which yes are actually two very different things, though from the looks of it are often interconnected in Asgardian society in particular, unlike on Earth; where medical technology is foremost, and sorcery/magic has been forced basically into hiding by centuries of the many different flavors (both in religion base and name) of Inquisitions on Earth over the course of over a millennia by the time the twenty tens roll around. We also know that they do posses some limited means through technology, of suppressing some magic; but whether or not Asgard in particular has evolved their understanding of sorcery in particular to do so on a magical level is questionable at best given what we've seen between the first two films alone.

Given the blatantly similar societal distaste for most non-combative magic, and even a good portion of combative magic for that matter that's pretty likely not the case: even Thor refers to his mother's skills and knowledge as "tricks." However, that doesn't seem to apply where the "Healer's Hall" inhabitants and actual healers are involved.

Most obvious example of technological vs magic, and those limitations I mentioned above that we have is a pair of scenes in TDW: the Soul Forge in the Healer's Hall vs. Loki's full-room illusions.

Soul Forge (aka Quantum Field Generator:)

This is also, one of the scenes that continues to show rather than tell, the MCU established facts of their advancement.. and their arrogance around it when dealing with what Asgardians otherwise clearly still consider 'lesser' races under their protection. Quite a contrast to Loki's interactions with Selvig and Barton delivering those two a great deal more dignity and trust in A1 too, while they're building the portal device ...but that's a whole other set of attached social observations and comparisons I'm not gonna get into here. The point of this one is: if there's magic there; they're making it very clear there isn't much of it, and doubling down on that whole 'not gods, only mistaken for them' far more interesting take, on which MCU Asgard was built since the very first movie. (again though, it also displays their arrogance in that direction, as Eir not only treats Jane's inquiry very dismissively; but gets flustered and gap-mouthed [literally] when she positively identifies the diagnostic technology being used. It also is one of the many displays of how differing etymology between cultures in the MCU [yes there are a few, including the Dr. Strange film as another major example of that in particular] is a purposely crafted thing.)

ANYWAY!

Compare that technological, with the feats of sorcery Loki manages in that same film. Not only does he not use tech to manage his magic/sorcery (or 'tricks' as Thor calls it lol).. but he does so behind the locked door of, that same level of technology, in his own prison cell.. and beyond it. While some of the deleted scenes show this too? The final cut certainly wasn't lacking either.

So, all that said..? And without dipping into the whole discarded-from-canon 'Healing Stone' facet: it's very likely with a normal (or normal-ish lol) coma, that it wouldn't really be that different: just easier to some extent and probably a lot faster to correct any issues with those caused by injury in particular.

However! And most important:

Odinsleep, is something else entirely.

From the first film, we know through dialogue that not only is 'Odinsleep' not a normal coma by any means: it's one that can, has, and with the way they talk about it: SHOULD be induced every so often in order to maintain his health.

Where do we get that and why do I say 'his' in particular?

Because..

1. It is called Odinsleep, which says outright that in the MCU either Odin is a common enough name among Asgardian elder generations to be named as such OR, that it's a practice that belongs solely to Odin in particular.

2. The conversation between Loki and Frigga tell us as much, in their conversation over Odin's bed. (PS I couldn't find the full clip immediately, so I am posting the full uncut scene [with deleted parts] instead. The part that I've marked it to (timestamp 1:06 in the video below if that doesn't work for you) is what you need to listen to most, and was part of the final cut in Thor 2011.

Though the way they cut and rearranged this scene has some of that conversation out of sequence, the information given about Odinsleep remains the same in the much shorter canon conversation.

Their conversation tells the viewer outright, that not only is that a thing he does regularly, but that it can be planned out and planned for: as they make a point of stating that it's only this time, the Odinsleep was unprepared for.. and, they have seen it enough for Loki's first words to be stating the fact he 'never gets used to seeing him like this' .. meaning? He has seen it enough times that he thinks he probably should be: but also that it's upsetting enough an experience to him, that he isn't.

You'll note that they also briefly discuss the fact that Odin had been putting the Odinsleep off. It was coming anyway and regardless .. and should have happened far sooner.

While it's not technically counted as canon on screen, there's a little more information given directly about Odinsleep in the parts cut out too, if you choose to observe and use them: as well as a more direct showing of what we already know even without that scene of how Frigga chooses to pass the throne to the only heir not currently being guilty of and banished for several counts of treason including restarting the war and disobeying the king in that bed, with Thor's invasion of Jotunheim landing him firmly on Earth with the very obviously earned traitor title.

I'll leave it up to you if you want to watch and or use any of that, and you definitely could; since it's -again- just dialogue telling the viewer what's already known simply by watching the other scenes around it in the canon cut, including and especially the throne room scene where Sif & the Warriors Three request Thor's return, regardless of not only knowing he was banished for treason.. but also having been the others to try to remind and convince him alongside Loki; to NOT commit that treason, prior to him doing it and dragging them along anyway.

All in all, through those scenes; we are given a very clear set of rules and information about Odinsleep either way. Which includes the fact that it can be a form of coma that probably should not be randomly interrupted or the subject brought out of it, where it's apparently necessary for the individual's overall health: but can also be a state in which they might spend the last of their lives.

In that, this also tells us that; there isn't a whole lot that even Asgard's greater technology, or even magic can or should do, to bring someone out of it at all.

And, from the way they do deal with their King going through it even by surprise: we know that there isn't much they can do at all beyond keeping him comfortable and as healthy as possible until the Odinsleep finishes it's course naturally... whether that results in the subject waking up, or possibly, dying.

There's no mention of anyone else going through Odinsleep.. but there's also no mention of whether or not anyone else HASN'T, either.

Either way, that scene alone does show and tell a lot more about Asgard's medical capabilities and some of their limitations too, even as a society that's been at war since before Moses (lol but true, especially counting Odin's dad before him fought the elves for what Odin himself identified as 'Eternities of bloodshed' that didn't end until almost 5k years prior,) even, when cut down to the re-arranged version put down in the film's final cut.

Ultimately, and that said?

I don't think caring for a person in Odinsleep would be different from what we see on screen.

A whole lot of trying to keep them comfortable, undisturbed, and healthy; while wondering and worrying when and especially -if- they'll even wake up.

--Post Script, and a more direct personal example: Incidentally, and if you're curious: I have written Loki as having gone through his own "Odinsleep" in twenty thirteen, in Book Two (Vestibule 1, Universe 8) of my Lokiverse project: GROUNDED. Yes, that underlined bit is both the title and a link directly to where that long fic is posted on AO3, if you're curious how I handled it there. I suggest reading the chapters leading into that segment to understand how that portion of their multiverse got there, but if you want to skip a bit, the Odinsleep sequence itself starts in Chapter Four and ends in chapter Five, and is ultimately among the last of events before a time skip all the way into Civil War's era. It's not the only time the muses use it, but it is currently the only instance I have published.

[sporadic-og-loki]

Loki Helmet Figurine by Planeta DeAgostini, from their Marvel Museum Collection (to be released)

[unityrain24]

natalie portman saw an hot alien man that ended up being an unstable murder and it ended horribly and then she turned around and saw ANOTHER unstable murderer hot alien man and was like it's ok i can fix him this time guys don't worry

[ellena-asg]

[cherriiramen]

I headcanoned these two as besties and now the thought won’t leave my head…

[abby118]

[tyrannuspitch]

today's experiment i accidentally stayed up all night for: trying to pass off thor (2011) as a black and white classic

[mayathescientist]

and if i only could

make a deal with God

[iamnmbr3]

put this in the discord originally but i think i will post it here too. i feel like one of the “issues” with thor 2011 is that the planned/intended arcs for thor and loki are incompatible. well. not exactly incompatible. but when combined. they make a different story. 

it’s like originally they planned loki’s arc to be about the dangers of jealousy and how he was ultimately consumed by his jealousy of thor. but then when they were doing thor’s arc they were like “oh let’s do the ‘guy who has everything is kind of a jerk and isn’t ready for responsibility but then learns to be better thru hardship’ arc that we did in iron man 1 with tony stark; ppl loved that soim sure they’ll like it here.” the problem is if thor has all these flaws that make him not ready to be king, then suddenly Loki’s jealousy isn’t so unreasonable. 

and yeah sure they intended loki to be a sympathetic character but i think he ended up being even more sympathetic than intended bc everything he says about thor is…kinda right. like yes. loki is partly motivated by jealousy and bitterness. but it’s bitterness that is really understandable bc Loki’s maturity compared to Thor is overlooked and it IS unfair. it’s not just loki coveting what Thor has. it’s quite reasonable. and no one else acknowledges it. 

this isn’t exactly a problem. it makes the story a lot more interesting and complicated and nuanced. the only issue comes with the dissonance between what we see and the framing. a dissonance that only gets more pronounced as the franchise continues and refuses to deal with loki’s very real and legitimate issues.

[daydreamerdrew]

excerpt from “Of Gods and Monsters: The Allegorical Narratives of Thor and The Incredible Hulk” in Avengers Assemble!: Critical Perspectives on the Marvel Cinematic Universe by Terence McSweeney