#racism in asoiaf

[blackcat419]

HotD and Race

While George R.R. Martin is a very skilled writer, he fails at writing characters of color, with disabilities, or female characters a lot. There are countless examples of marginalized character’s experiencing 10x the violence of their white and male counterparts while receiving little to no characterization.

For example, Lollys Stokeworth is a disabled woman who is brutally raped and forced to have a child from that. There is little humanization within the narrative for her as everyone either finds her annoying or a burden. Her trauma is ignored and pushed to the side lines.

Another example is Alayaya who is black sex worker brutalized by Tywin to get to Tyrion and is used by Tyrion as a cover for his visits to Shae. After she is whipped and thrown out of the red keep, we only hear about her having sex with other characters.

And the most famous example is Miri Mas dur. A victim of extreme physical, sexual, and emotional violence, saw her whole community either killed or enslaved, and was burned alive for fighting back against her oppressors.

All this to say that making house Velaryon black is a further insult to minority viewers as this house is repeatedly victimized, side lined, and killed to push the claims of white characters. And to add on to this, the family is never allowed to be upset about this without the text punishing them and fandom calling them entitled. Corlys is such a butchered character.

[witheredoffherwitch]

Y'ALL CAN EXCUSE RACISM?

Let's get one thing straight: I have no part in this chaotic mess (infact, I have blocked all the accounts mentioned below), but it's grinding my gears how it's devolving into another petty fanfic drama: case 607. I know this drama is getting the attention for certain individuals who are demonstrating mean girl behaviour and gossiping about other writers behind their backs. However, I am solely focused on addressing the racist and discriminatory remarks made by these individuals in the leaked text messages.

For those not in the loop, there's been a huge drama in the fanfic community involving leaked text messages from a group chat of four prominent members. In these messages, two users - Fae and Bel - have admitted to sending hate anons and talking smack about other writers behind their backs. Two other members left the group after it was revealed that B tried to make amends with someone who these two, Em and Ange, don't particularly care for. As a move to clear their names, Em exposed all the texts, trying to prove that Fae and Bel are the real villains here.

But wait, there's more! In these same chats, Bel not only mocked fellow non-English speakers but also bragged about sending rat emojis to an 18-year-old Pakistani writer who was already receiving racist anons. While everyone is focused on getting back at these two women for being shady af, it's mind-boggling how Em and Ange are suddenly jumping on the anti-racism train.

These two ladies stayed in the same chat as a fellow Pakistani writer was driven away because of racism, knowing full well that one of their own was contributing to it, and said NOTHING! Zero discouragement, no condemnation - they only hopped off when things got personal.

So here it is… I've had it with all of you hypocrites. You praise and encourage these women at every turn, feeding their egos like they're the second coming of Beyonce. But let's not forget who's always stirring up drama in this fandom - hint: it's these same people with a sense of entitlement the size of a planet. The issue is groupthink and y'all have all jumped on the bandwagon. You're worse than HBO's marketing department because just like their shitty teams, everyone involved here SUCKS ASS. You don't have to pick a side because they are all petty, mean losers. Bel and Fae are facing the consequences of their actions, which they rightfully deserve.

However, Em's exposé on Bel's racism seems more like an opportunistic move and it's disappointing that so many of you are supporting it. It's a predictable cycle now; there will be a half-hearted apology, an announcement of a hiatus, and then tons of people will flock to their inboxes to shower them with praise and excuses. It's ridiculous! I know there are many who feel the same way as me but are afraid to speak up because they don't want to upset the "village elders" and risk losing their connections and engagements. It's a joke atp!

Instead of taking responsibility for their own wrongdoings, they will come up with a list of 10 different cyber crimes by others to divert attention from their own nonsense. These very same women have confessed to creating multiple fake accounts, secretly stalking servers without mods noticing, and constantly harassing individuals through anon messages.

Yet, we are supposed to consider them as examples of moral integrity and ethical behavior? 😒

[fandom-blahs]

What happened to CrazyTom is crazy and going through the twitter comments is insane, people justifying it so weird.

You can look up very old threads on the ASOIAF forum or reddit where people talk about how bad the Jaehaera’s ending is and how it’s one of the weaker, if not the weakest parts, of the dance (or post dance? Idk how to classify it) and F&B in general (not the weakest in that case)

Daenaera just pops up as the realm’s hottest 6 year old and you’re just like yup hahaha there goes GRRM again with his quirky writing.

I promise you just look up pre-HOTD threads about Jaehaera it has nothing to do with Daenaera being black in the HOTD!verse.

The way people defend it has me going crazy because with the arguments they’re putting forth it’s clear none of them …ever tried giving GRRM’s writing a go, it’s just so sensitive “why would your ant Aegon III to be sad and be….” huh??

It’s so obvious that the twitter fight is just a dumb extension for the TB/TG shit fight when in the past it was more of “why did GRRM forsake a perfect ending for the dance to encapsulate how useless this civil war is”

[alicentflorent]

I don't know if this will make sense but the women on game of thrones (when they were adapting the full source material ASOIAF) actually felt like women living in a feudalistic society and most of them were layered, three dimensional female characters and there was enough world building that we understood the world they lived in and how this impacted who they were. In HOTD however, it doesn't feel like they even live in a feudalistic society and they are clearly being written and viewed through a modern lens and this is obvious when you see the people involved in the show constantly comparing their women and the storylines involving them to the modern, real world ("women for trump", Hilary Clinton losing the election etc) when there are plenty of historical women and historical examples they can compare it to, I mean Rhaenyra was literally based on empress Matilda!! but they aren't capable of world building this medieval style society despite the fact that the books have already done it, another show has already done it but these showrunners and writers aren't capable of writing a story without allowing their modern world views to affect it and not in a critical but authentic way but in a "I'm going to treat these women as if they haven't been socialised in a feudalistic society where misogyny is the norm and another fatal flaw in the system and write these characters like they should know better than to act like Noble women living under feudalism.

[antinativefaves]

Your Fave is Anti Native - George RR Martin, David Benioff and DB Weiss

Martin's portrayal of the Dothraki were inspired by a collection of Indigenous cultures as depicted below but their depiction is VERY racist and degrading.

The portrayal of the Dothraki in the Game of Thrones live action series is also with it's massive problems that perpetuate racist stereotypes.

The tweet in question went viral and fans of the show have put their own ignorance and racism on full display. When your writing and your portrayal of marginalized groups inspires more racism and hatred, it is anti-indigenous. Full stop.

[ludcake]

George R R Martin: in my lorebook, I'm going to make the western accounts of the eastern peoples outlandish and incredibly racist, and note how they think the same of the people in the West, to illustrate how Orientalism propagates through ignorance and stereotype and Othering of other cultures and peoples, ascribing mysticism and exoticity to the mundane and different

Redditors: wow, isn't it cool how outlandish and unbelievable these eastern civilizations are, they're so weird and wacky with their beliefs and magic

[rhaenin-time]

Being a native who's studied colonialism means that I know wayyyyy too much about blood quantum. I know how stupid it is, how it's tied to eugenics, but I also know how it "works."

Which means I can use my stupid-power to do this:

Well this took a turn.

[shunnedmorlock]

it's especially crazy that they're merging nettles with rhaena of all characters, who has basically the exact opposite personality to her! i'm sorry, you merged nettles the foul-mouthed street urchin with rhaena the perfect princess who spends the dance living her best life in the vale? and this is basically the only composite character they've done. you're telling me joffrey velaryon was more important than nettles, really? it's like if D&D had said that really arya and sansa are redundant characters so gave arya's whole storyline to sansa. maddening.

it's not only terrible because of, well, everything else, but because from the images we've seen, it seems rhaena will be wandering through the vale in dirty men's clothes? i'm sorry, what happened to rhaena targaryen, the savvy diplomat and princess? or would a girl in a dress be too weak for the blacks?

[martellspear]

"To the point of accusing people who dislike her [Elia] of racism" as if some people here don't have to deal with this:

Not to mention other violent and disgusting words:

[venusintheblindspots-blog]

And to add more on my previous post, all of the main female characters (with the exception of Arianne Martell) in the main series of ASOIAF are representations of white femininity.

Every single one.

And that is because they are literally white. It doesn’t make them bad characters or anything.

I’ve talked about it before hand, but anytime George is writing a character of color, especially a black woman, he uses racist stereotypes and imagery. Every time.

There’s a reason why Dorne and the Summer Isles are sexually liberated, and why the Dothraki are portrayed as vicious ‘savages’ with hardly any redeeming values to their culture.

There’s a reason why Arianne’s exposure to sex and intimacy at ten years old is not framed the same way as say, Sansa’s.

There’s a reason why Chataya and her daughter are brutalized and reminiscent of the Jezebel trope.

[ride-thedragon]

You know, one of the funniest things about the Nettles' erasure discourse was that a big point everyone is pointing towards of making Rhaenyra less racist is weird when they could quite easily do that without Nettles being taken out. Quite literally, all they would need to do is have her actions be made out of necessity rather than anger. Have her call for Nettles' head and Daemon's return, but as a consequence of his stalling and her growing need for him. Have her stage the council with Mysaria or simply have Mysarìa lie to the council. We'd see how desperate this time is for her, but it wouldn't be tied to jealousy. It's the price she thinks is necessary to pay. Even have Daemon ignoring her letters in Maidenpool only for her to send the letter to the Mooton’s.

But I'm not being paid to adapt it.

[horizon-verizon]

Not people jumping to blame DAEMON'S influence for Jace calling bastards "mongrels." When has Daemon EVER been bastardphobic? His attitudes towards Jace's parentage include some possible jealousy while he and Laena were both being good natured about it, seeming kind of proud of Rhaenyra when she admitted it, seeming pretty enthusiastic about wedding his daughters to "bastards", and literally killing a man for insulting Rhaenyra and her boys. I just simply don't get where this "Daemon is a blood supremacist" (more than any other noble is) comes from when he gives no fuck aside from jealousy about Rhaenyra "sullying" their Valyrian blood with Strong blood and putting her bastards on their precious dragons. Alicent is the most likely source of Jace's internalized insecurities (because that's what that was) so why do people keep pretending otherwise? Am I missing something?

I think that it's an opportunity to slam Targs, use the less-than-great reputation Daemon has amongst some fans--which includes his supposed "special" pride, and finally to incorporate Jacaerys into that to "prove" Targ-evil and unique amorality. That is pretty much all, aside from how Condal & co have written their version of a Jace to be less secure in himself and have less...I guess "family" as its truest phenomenon. Again, Daemon lived w/Rhaenyra her her co on Dragonstone for abt 1o or a little more with both Baela & Rhaena. Before that, it had been Harwin with occasional & then more frequent visits from Laenor. He more or less grew up away from the court Alicent presided even as he experienced some of the stigma of being even suspected as a bastard, esp from Alicent's supporters, here & there. But more so from his uncles: Aegon, Aemond, perhaps Daeron, too who'd follow his older brothers.

I also think it's bc Daemon has a lot of pride in his house that they are bound to think are white supremacists/colonizers and has disliked Rhea Royce from the beginning while being more amenable to Laena and Rhaenyra, who are both much more Valyrian-by-lineage than Rhea, who has none. Nobles are engrossed in making sure their marriages afford them the best possible access to resources and the prestige associated to whatever house so that they may have issue who can brings usch things into the "home" house or out to the house(s) chosen and favored. It's a way to organize wealth and power. Targs on Valyria and the rest of Valyria saw strength in their dragons, the pinnacle of such power matter of fact. So--as they too, maybe, didn't have that much knowledge about genetics work outside of the magic that in Planetos is more unpredictable than other magical systems--they decided that to preserve their power/dragon bonds, they must do as many other aristocracies did--marry closely and keep that line towards power amongst themselves. I said all of this before, but it bears repeating. Daemon & the Westerosi ruling Targs , however, has never gone out of their way to create a racist system except maybe Daeron I with Dorne if he had ever succeeded in conquering it (in which case, the Dornish are not nonwhite in GRRM's lore, so that racial system would not really mirror out own very well and be its own thing entirely).

Daemon has never even displayed true blood purity the way Alicent was closer to in 1x06 when she commented on how she called them "plain-featured" and groused abt how she couldn't understand how they could have hatched their dragons...while 3 of her kids had to wait till they were much older to bond with one. Daemon never called anyone anything that espoused he thought them as lesser in the exact degree or way that Lord Celtigar does in I think 2x06? 7? (I recently ___ epi 7 and watched w/ a few friends) when he protested against Alyn getting a dragon and even called it "theft". And we see in how he interacts with Alys how he was never actually blood purist with her...an actual unrelated bastard. Daemon just cares about whether you can be trusted to not supplant family, and the Targtowers are too mired in Seven/Faith influence to be "trustworthy".

It also stems from people not truly understanding what blood purity is & its elements or what it looks like when practiced and in the open, active. You hear people make the mistake of assuming the Targs are all blood purists bc they dislike how "keeping the blood pure" thru sibling marriage for dragonriding sounds to them like the Valyrians were ready for phrenology and eugenics and all that...If this were true, however, every single society (or at least most)--and that includes many non-white societies like the Egyptians, some Polynesians, East Asians, etc. as that particular kind of "blood purists". I list of these out bc you will find such "keeping blood pure" practices in nonwhite ancient societies as well. Often. Class=/= race, though it definitely laid the frames for race as we know it; racial systems have inherited ideas of racial difference from class assumptions of difference b/t aristocratic classes and the have-nots. To put it oversimply.

Still, they are not the same. Or we wouldn't have "white" people of real life AND Westeros also hate or abuse the other in their systems. If the Westerosi ruling Targs were that sort of "blood purists", they would have never allowed themselves to marry outside of their own family for fear of "dirtying" their "blood", or lineage. And they, more than the Starks, have had quite a diverse set of outer marriages through their entire dynasty.

I think Daemon just has a lot more expressed pride and arrogance that puts people off and leads them to make wrong, well-meaning conclusions. Oh, & of course HotD hasn't helped, with how they reduced his character at every turn possible.

[bleakbluejay]

Please don't fucking do this shit, it's weird and feels kinda racist.

[chrkrose]

Nettles' dragon going to Rhaena, Nettles' non-valyrianness going to Ulf, Nettles lack of Valyrian features going to Addam, but sure her character was never that big of a deal and can absolutely be erased without fucking over the entire narrative.

[laenaism]

The constant saying of “Fire & Blood” being an unreliable narrative is such bullshit!

Ryan and Sara trying to drive this false relationship between Alicent and Rhaenyra where they were childhood best friends turned into ‘tragic doomed ex-lovers’ is so icky to me. They erase Laena&Rhaenyra’s relationship, whether you want to say it was romantic or not, it still existed, and replace the entirety of it with Rhaenyra&Alicent. Also adding the fact that they made the Velaryon’s black only to cut such an important relationship in Rhaenyra’s life. Not only with her and Laena but also with her and Laenor. You cannot tell me it doesn’t REEK with racism.

Ryan and Co. are desperately trying to mop up their mess with saying this sh!tshow is based on F&B when they have changed so much from it! “The histories will paint you as the villain” - they have Rhaenyra say that to Alicent in the last episode so they can be like ‘well F&B made Alicent into this evil step-mother, so this checks out’ DPMO! Book!Alicent wasn’t just this evil-stepmother trope so many of you like to sculpt it as, she was an ambitious woman who cared about her children. Forgive me if I find that more interesting than the inconsistent character they made show!Alicent into. Don’t try and tell me show!Alicent is better because you would be a stinky liar. House of the Dragon is so incredibly inconsistent that it’s actually frustrating. And they treat their black actors like sh!t, and they never defend them online if racism is being spewed at them.

I’m only watching for Baela and Rhaena and to write my fix it fanfic at this point but it’s a grueling task and I’m not even exaggerating lmao. I hope Ryan and Co never write anything ever again because the world would be better off. A few less racist, misogynistic, rape-apologists in the film industry. There are too many of those that exist out there.

[martelldragon]

Hotd twitter is awful, those people are trying to claim Jaehaera is the “last Targaryen” (lmao) and they’re calling Bethany and Phoebe the n word, and saying Baela and Rhaena aren’t Targaryens because they’re black.

Also: If you are racist towards Bethany, Phoebe, Steve, Sonoya, Clinton, or Abubakar just because they’re TB characters, you’re disgusting. If you claim that Baela, Rhaena, Corlys, Addam, and Alyn aren’t Targaryens/Velaryons because they’re black, you’re racist. If you claim that Mysaria isn’t Lysene because she’s asian, you’re racist.