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starsonablackboard · 3 months ago

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it's fascinating to me that every member of the party pre- and during loops treats siffrin with some flavour of alienation. like, bear with me. this post is going to sound like im here to give a hot take that the party are Bad Friends, Actually, but i promise you that's not what i mean. you're with me? okay. let's go.

isa idolises him (in the having a crush on someone type of way).

mira views them almost as a book character (the whole "the aura! the mystique!" conversation).

odile calls them a child to their face multiple times.

bonnie is... well, bonnie. kid is coping how they manage.

in the very beginning of the journey we have isa and mira, who, out of all five, are the most familiar to eachother. they're from the same country, they both actively follow the change religion, they both occupy (or occupied, in isa's case) well-respected positions in society, they're very close in age and i would assume socioeconomic statuses. they share a lot personality wise, too. they're both anxious about not being enough, about not changing enough, they're both open and emotional and affectionate, they even both like romance novels! they are very in eachother's comfort zones. they are very understandable to eachother.

then there's odile. she is as different as it gets – she's ka buan (and well half vaugardian but nobody knows that), she's old, she has different religios beliefs and different history with body craft, she's confident, self-secure, reserved, sarcastic and at times cold and makes it very apparent that she's not into openly displayed affection. but also, she is actively choosing to be seen this way. she is comfortable with being perceived like this.

and then, there's siffrin. a mysterious traveler with mysterious past that doesn't like to be touched and never talks about his feelings. where are they from? what he believes? what did he do prior? why did they join them? noone knows. situation kinda similar to odile's, but kicker is, we know siffrin does not want to be seen this way.

mira, being a somewhat sheltered not very experienced young adult (she's from dormont with population less than a regular highschool class, and has been living in the house for some past years) with more familiarity with books than with real world obviously views them more as a cool character than a person. and i can't blame her! siffrin doesn't help her view them any differently either.

isa i assume catches feeling almost immideately (the whole journey takes less than a year, sif is second to last to join and we know that isa's crush has been going for months) and it's universally hard to not idolise and idealise the person you're having a crush on, so even tho isa is more experienced than mira, i imagine he fails to see siffrin as a whole person too.

odile out of all of them grinds my own personal gears the most. i love you, old wise lady, but oh god. the amount of times she refers to the party and in particular siffrin as kids or children is sure something. and the thing with kids is that you generally don't view them as equals, so, no "seeing siffrin as a person that he is" there either.

that's general dynamics. now to what interactions we actually see in game:

odile mocks siffrin for being forgetful. every time siffrin forgets a word, everyone reacts as if they don't remember that vaugardian isn't siffrin's native language. both isa and mira behave patronisingly towards them (jokingly, but still). the whole party spends some time comparing siffrin to a wild animal in the dictionary conversation, mira saying "what a perfect analogy" with stars in her eyes. one time siffrin desides to open up and tell them about stars, they mock him. when he kills that sadness more violently than usual, they all look at him as if he murdered a baby (i still don't really get why btw. they've been fighting side to side for months). the whole ghost event. ohhh ghost event my beloved.

all of these, for me, point to a very deep yet unacknowledged disconnect between siffrin and the rest of the party. the not-understanding. the unfamiliarity. the alienation. siffrin is other even in their own little ragtag bunch of misfits.

now AM I SAYING that means that the party is bad actually?? no!!! for every interaction i named there's multiple others with them being supportive and warm to sif. also, siffrin, famously, is very bad at telling when something bothers them, so noone whould even know if they were doing anything that upset him. and, on top of everything else, i think it's very natural for a party of very different people traveling in a lot of hurry and discomfort and plain mortal danger for months to develop a bond where "i would die for you, my siblings in arms, but i also will poke fun at your religion when it starts to sound too impossible for my worldview. what do you mean stars are there in the daytime too? don't be silly". i actually really appreciate their friendships being imperfect, because it's so much more interesting and thought provoking this way. like, I've been thinking about this for weeks.

and also, this specific type of imperfection plays into the core themes of siffrin's character. to be welcomed, adored, loved, even, but not understood. not recognised. not known. and to not even try to explain untill the world is literally ending.

#why am i not talking about bonnie?#because bonnie's an actual child #they can't and shouldn't fulfill this need for peer to peer recognition you feel me? does it make sense?#but also yeah they do play a role in the whole alienating siffrin bit post eye accident #because it's hard to process something like this and bonnie's little so they push sif away #i think before sif lost his eye bonnie probably was the only party member who saw him for who he was or closest to it #which is it's own layer of sad #also i think it's obviously going to change posg loops now that everyone unlocked the option of talking about feelings #and they have time and safety to know eachother on a more personal level not just mundane domestic one #by mundane domestic i mean like i know how my roommate likes her sandwiches and what's her nighttime routine is #but i don't know much about her deep worried wants and dreams and such #main point is this is not a perfect friendgroup and IT'S GOOD because no friendgroup is. it's more interesting this way too. it's fun!#in stars and time #in stars and time spoilers #isat #isat spoilers

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silverwhittlingknife · 1 year ago

Note

So you're a go to source for all things Dick&Tim bros and you tend to write primarily from Dick's POV. So, odd question, but if you were to summarize their relationship from his POV in FIVE panels which panels would you pick? Keeping in mind that one specific aspect of their relationship that you love needs to be clearly represented by each panel (loyalty, trust etc). I hope this is a fun challenge and not an annoying question so if you don't want to answer that's cool! Have a wonderful day!

No more talk. The same thoughts run through two minds... (SotB 29) / You're my equal. My closest ally. (RR 1) / I can't stop thinking how much I rely on him. (GoG 3)

25 Feelings Dick Has About Tim

This was such a kind ask & a cool challenge which I totally failed; here are TWENTY-five panels of Dick's POV on Tim sdfdsfds Look, I got carried away! Marcia and Cindy! The boys!!

OKAY SO BEFORE I GET TO THE PANELS A FEW NOTES:

WARNING THAT THERE ARE SOME NEGATIVE EMOTIONS IN HERE because I love conflict but but but you gotta remember those are not the final word!! They are complicated people and sometimes they get mad at each other BUT ultimately their relationship is so hugely important in both their lives & they love each other and rely on each other so much -!!! <3

Also I have CONCLUDING THOUGHTS at the end about what Dick's POV leaves out (mostly: a lot of Dick defending & protecting & supporting Tim, which Dick does instinctively but isn't very self-aware about most of the time)

I have loosely organized my list into 5^5 format (5 categories with 5 examples each!), so if you want to skip to a relevant one, here are the categories!!

Below the cut:

I hate him and find him infuriating (#1-5)

On second thought, he's endearing & fun (#6-10)

Grief is complicated & he's all tangled up in mine (#11-15)

I love him & think highly of him (#16-20)

I rely on him & though it's hard for me, I trust him (#21-25)

I hate him and find him infuriating (#1 - 5)

1) He thinks he’s so smart and can psychoanalyze me and Bruce, but he doesn’t know me at all, he should get lost (New Titans 61)

2) He thinks he’s so smart and can psychoanalyze Bruce but he doesn’t know Bruce at all, he should get lost (Gotham Knights 26)

3) He is so nosy about stuff that is MY business (Robin 0)

4) He sounds like an insincere suck-up half the time... but okay, fine, if you push him he's got a sense of humor about it (New Titans 65)

5) I'm sure he's a better vigilante than me. It's my fault for being a failure, but I resent him anyway. (Nightwing 9 - Dick's having a nightmare)

On second thought, he's kinda endearing (#6-10)

6) He worries too much and gets anxious so easily, but it makes him fun to tease (Robin 67)

7) I'm not that competitive - okay, so maybe I'm a little competitive, I gotta make sure he doesn't get a swelled head (Prodigal)

8) I'm supposed to be his favorite! It is not cool for him to be fanboying over my not-girlfriend's not-boyfriend!! (Birds of Prey 19)

9) We have fun together. I can kick back and relax when it's just the two of us. Plus I get to boss him around a bit. (Prodigal)

10) He’s always trying to reassure me, and I guess it's a little comforting, but also he doesn’t really get it. Or me. He makes excuses that he shouldn't, because he doesn't understand that I suck. (Nightwing 64)

Grief is complicated and he's all tangled up in mine (#11 - 15)

11) He reminds me of everything I try not to think about. Sometimes the memories are so strong it hurts to look at him. (Batman 441)

12) WHY IS HE BEING IMPOSSIBLE ALL OF A SUDDEN??? THIS IS SO FRUSTRATING (Nightwing 139)

13) We're the same. He says all the things I don't let myself think about. It's like arguing with myself. (Nightwing 139)

14) He thinks he gets to tell me what to do but he doesn’t, fuck him (Battle for the Cowl)

15) Life sucks, so what. I sucked it up so he should too (RR 1)

I love him and think highly of him (#16 - 20)

16) He’s the closest thing to a brother I’ll ever have. If someone hurts him I will hurt them harder. (Nightwing 6)

17) I can't handle the idea of losing him. (Nightwing 97)

17) He’s so good and I’m not. I'm afraid I’m bad for him. (Nightwing 110)

18) He’s better than me, and it’s kind of a relief because I know no matter what he’ll be okay. (Gates of Gotham 3)

19) In my head he’s the responsible one. (Gotham Knights 10)

I rely on him, and though it's hard for me, I trust him (#20-25)

20) I know I have to trust him but I'm afraid he'll make the wrong choices and get hurt (Nightwing 139)

21) I'm sure I know what he should do because I see myself in him - not that I can take my own advice, but he should (Blackest Night 3)

22) I trust him. When I’m losing my grip on things, he pulls me back. (Gotham Knights 10)

23) I want him to trust me (Red Robin 12)

24) He can tell when I'm lying. Sometimes he sees my weaknesses better than I wish he did. (Detective Comics 874)

25) He’s always there when I need him. (Teen Titans / Outsiders Secret Files)

Final rambling thoughts:

TIM: Uhh, okay, so I'm just skimming this list - do you really trust me? you're not just saying that? - but anyway, I'm confused because you left some stuff out? Like some stuff that's kinda important? DICK: No? I think I got everything? TIM (starts counting on his fingers): The time I was having a bad day but then I called you. The time I got captured by Two-Face but then you saved me. The time I fell off a train but then you saved me. The time I fell off a building but then you saved me. The time I fell off a different building - DICK: I feel like you're trying to make some kind of point but I'm not sure what it could be.

SO THE THING IS, I put 25 panels in here and not a single one has Dick catching Tim when he’s falling!!! But I think that's a central motif of their relationship from Tim’s POV, not Dick’s. I love Dick, but in some ways I think he is spectacularly un-self-aware.

And I think he especially has a lot of blind spots about Tim. He kinda intermittently gets that Tim admires him, and he enjoys it in a playful I-get-to-boss-you-around way. But Dick tends to consistently underestimate all of his own good qualities & skills, and he meets Tim at a point in his life when he's especially down on himself & his abilities. And so he's unable to see his own influence on Tim, & therefore unable to fully understand a lot of Tim's priorities and loyalties and motivations, because you can't actually understand Tim without understanding Dick's impact on him. There's a fascinating moment in Bruce Wayne: Murderer when Dick's completely blindsided & upset to discover that Tim doesn't entirely trust Bruce, even though this has been a definitive fact of Tim's whole thing ever since he showed up with his Batman needs Robin theory, and Barbara has to actively remind Dick of the obvious-to-everyone-except-Dick fact that a lot of Tim's loyalty is to Dick, and Tim loves Bruce but feels free to be more wary of him. (And to give Bruce credit: this is not something he ever begrudges.) But anyway Babs points this out, and Dick manages to sorta process it for about five seconds, but he cannot actually accept it into his worldview so instead he discards it at the speed of light and goes off and has an argument with Tim instead sdfsfdsf

All of Dick's virtues - Dick's kindness at the circus and Dick's determination to fight through grief and Dick's rigid sense of morals and Dick's vigilante skills and every time Dick has ever backed Tim up or listened to him or protected him or saved him from something or just been casually kind to a stranger in Tim's presence etc etc etc - all these things loom really large in Tim's mental story of Who Dick Is, and What Dick And Tim's Relationship Is. Tim meets Dick before he meets Bruce, trusts Dick more than Bruce, aspires to be Robin instead of Batman. And so in Tim's default version of the story, Dick is the super-special and admirable hero and Tim is... nobody in particular, a tagalong outsider who's barely managing to be a hero, not part of Dick and Bruce's family and not part of their story, who, if he's VERY LUCKY and tries REALLY HARD, might be able to fight his way to proving himself and offering something to Dick that Dick will value, if Dick doesn't get fed up with him first.

But that's not Dick's version of the story!!!

Dick's version of the story is almost the exact opposite, a story where Dick's an outcast failure black sheep who's screwing up everything he tries, and meanwhile Tim is The Sudden New Perfect Robin Who's Better Than Me And Probably Bruce Loves Him More And Probably They Gossip About What A Loser I Am, mixed with a complicated edge of Tim Thinks He's So Smart But He Doesn't Know Me/Us At All. Dick gets much more attached to Tim over time, and Tim gets unnervingly better at the know-it-all psychoanalysis so then Dick gets to have complicated feelings about him being right instead of just annoyance at him for being wrong, plus Dick's relationship with Bruce improves a lot, so Tim stops feeling so threatening. But Dick never fundamentally changes his basic theory of their relationship in which Tim is highly impressive and capable, and Dick is not so much.

And so asking Dick about Tim is kinda like if you asked George Bailey to tell you about Harry Bailey in It's A Wonderful Life; like, you'll be there for five hours while he tells you how great Harry is, and how accomplished Harry is, and how he doesn't really get how or why Harry does the things he does, and maybe George does feel a little resentful or jealous sometimes, but that pales in comparison to all his admiration and trust for Harry who he loves so much, who's better than him in so many ways, and he's not gonna openly gripe but secretly he can't help but feel sometimes like he's such a failure in comparison to Harry, a perfect person who emerged fully formed from Zeus's head with all the virtues and also all the accomplishments, etc. etc. etc. --

-- and he will not actually remember the part where he changed and saved Harry's whole entire life unless you literally send him to an alternate timeline in order to force him to remember it. <3