#surface level flanderization

[headlightsontonight]

also this isnt at all controversial or anything but sam dean characterizations are firmly in my head as two characters putting on an act to desperately be smth that they just are intrinsically not but want to be

sam desperately wants to be normal. he is not normal, because of his demon blood, because of the way he grew up, because of his reactions and priorities. because of who he is

his desire for normalcy is reiterated over and over throughout the first part of the series, but it always involves burying some part of himself (lying to himself and others)

hes playing a part for what he thinks normalcy entails, despite having never experienced it himself

dean desperately wants to separate himself from normalcy. dean is not apathetic to normalcy, in fact, he craves it, the white picket fence life he makes fun of.

he doesnt think that a normal life is in his cards, that it's appropriate to want considering johns quest for revenge and then having the knowledge and skills that he does

where saving people becomes a mission statement, a way he can be useful

hes playing the part of a hero, like in the movies, despite wanting desperately to be out of the life and have stability and family and a home (and he has experienced shreds of it as a child, enough to idealize the experience and want it)

sam and dean are mirrors of what the other isn't, in personality, approach to life, aspirations, etc.

and in a way, this is reflected in the s5 finale. sam accepts his role in the supernatural world and elevates it to become a hero, dean retires and has a pseudo family to grow old with.

(of course, this works on paper and in terms of themes, but quickly becomes undeniably horrifying when you realize that the s5 finale is

sam -> in hell and tortured for eternity

dean -> knowing his brother is in hell and being tortured for eternity and that he just kinda has to accept it) but thats beside the point

[bluebeerg]

she's vietnamese btw

[gokubrain]

i’d noticed for a long time that fans have a tendency to infantilize goku and i never quite understood how so many people came to that conclusion,, because Z goku is silly but he’s also like rly masculine and brave to me 😭 but anyway now that i’m watching super i think i get where that trend came from lol.. goku is definitely so so silly in a different way than he was in Z, and i’m not saying that that’s a bad thing necessarily (i dont love it but also i have heavy bias lol) but i am saying that after seeing how he’s handled in super, it’s less surprising to me that people have a tendency to treat goku like he’s this weird totally innocent surface level guy .. do u guys get what im saying or am i crazy

[sitr-the-lunchlord]

I'm so fucking angry I need to see some hardcore genshin critique

[sunshine-zenith]

The idea of Peri having a good relationship with Juandissimo is so fun to me actually. Remember when he and Cupid said they'd be happy to come by and play with baby Peri

Audbfkansifheh yesss

Lmao instead of being That One Creepy Ex and the annoyed guy who occasionally helps or hinders the (love based) situations he’s dragged into, they become the magic equivalent of the Dinkleburgs for Cosmo and Wanda — that one annoyingly cool Dual Income, No Kids couple that you’re kinda friends with kinda enemies with, but Cosmo and Wanda put up with because they’re nice to Peri

Plus like, once Timmy’s out of the picture, I can’t see Cosmo and Wanda having their families be the go-to babysitters — Cosmo’s mother and brother are walking Reddit AITA Level Comically Toxic In Laws, Wanda’s father is literally a mob boss, and while I can see Peri getting along with Blonda to a degree, she ain’t the best with kids (with him specifically noting his new cool fashion sense in his intro and her overall vanity, I can see her as the aunt who takes him out for an afternoon of shopping, but drops him off at home the minute he tries to have a non-surface level conversation with her). And after he was un-flanderized, Cosmo and Wanda would probably be too scared to ask Jorgen

Juandissimo and Cupid, once they get over any antagonistic attitudes and activities, are Peri’s best shot at having uncle figures

[evil-sm-confessions]

with kindness in my heart, some folks are so incredibly amazingly dogshit at not flanderizing characters down to a basic trait. it cannot be this hard to regard a character as multi-faceted. "kevin is a girlfail soggy meowmeow cannot order burger without killing himself" "nooooo kevin is actually so awesome and capable and hes my dom daddy and hed kill skid and pump if given the chance" Have we considered. Have we considered that a character can have more than one trait. and said trait doesnt have to be an all-encompasing blanket. and that characters can in fact have.... personality deeper than a surface-level assertion?

also same shit goes for characters becoming solely the bearer of a like or skill. yeah streber likes vampires. hes also an inventor and likes rats and likes being a witty little shithead. his entire personality does not revolve around being a scare actor vampire 24 / 7. its giving 2016 jjba fandom sighs bonks my head against the wall. im autistic as fuck about warrior cats. i live and breathe that shit. i think about it daily. does that mean my entire personality and attire and behavior revolves around warrior cats day in day out? no i am also a person. and the funniest is when people assertively and confidently flandarize a trait of a character that *they dont even have* or something blatantly out of character. like, swings my gay ass back around to kevin. where the fucking scallop did we get all the like. charisma-lord daddy dom kevin shit from. its way less prevalent but. puts my hands on your shoulders where the FUCK did you get that out of his character.

I think at least part of it comes from how little screentime basically everyone gets but yeah. Get a GRIP PEOPLE. IM SMARTER THAN ALL.OF YOU AND TOU SHOULD FEEL BAD

[red-balloon12]

everytime i see someone saying What Marinette was right in keeping the truth for Adrien because she has Good intentions, This Quote for the Simpsons appears in my mind

Flanders:[to Marge] Well, my family and I can't live in good intentions, Marge! Oh, your family's out of control, but we can't blame you, because you have good intentions!

Do you see what I'm trying to say?

It’s a classic “the pathway to hell is paved with good intentions” situation. We know, on surface level, Marinette isn’t withholding the info from Adrien about Gabriel or about his true identity as a Senti out of malicious intent. Just like how Marinette, on surface level, doesn’t often tell AdriChat stuff out of malicious intent. But those “good intentions” doesn’t erase the fact that Marinette is lying to Adrien about a very important thing that he has EVERY right to know.

That plus the other things that Marinette has withheld from Adrien not only makes her look bad as a crime fighting partner, but as a lover as well. If she’s willing to withhold THIS from Adrien to “protect him”, god knows what other big things she’s going to be convinced to withhold from him to “spare his feelings”. (There can be a whole conversation on how Marinette actually does these things to save her own self from being inconvenienced by Adrien’s angst but that’s another separate can of worms that other people have talked about better than I probably could.)

[bornazombiefrommercury]

gorillaz writing since phase 4 or so has been in this feedback loop stage of depicting the characters as fans like to depict them and then fans depicting them that way which leads to flanderization over time. my prediction is in phase 8 an edgier 2d is definitely gonna make a comeback by popular demand. people are also very dissatisfied with noodle's current characterization but it seems like no one actually addresses how they want her to be which unfortunately makes me think she's going to stay the same until this pandering stage stops, if it ever does. so what are people even missing? where's the watsonian interpretation of her that murdoc always gets?

in phase 2 she was highly intelligent, had a dry sense of humor, and was concerned with issues arising in the world surrounding her. these surface level traits have stayed, albeit in a relatively milquetoast way. but there are also unaddressed darker sides of her character. she was very very obsessive, the type of person to go into doom spirals. she would often talk in a vague, conspiritorial way, like what she was seeing was beyond words. russel has been depicted as more paranoid in the later phases which isn't that random or surprising as he's been schizophrenia-coded since phase 2, but in my opinion it makes more sense consistency-wise for noodle to fill this role. perhaps her brooding that started in phase 2 mightve started to weigh on her over time, making her go progressively more and more insane.

her dark sense of intuition is the whole reason she made demon days. it was like she made it in a hurry or what she had bubbling up inside of her was going to make her implode if she didnt find a way to get it out. out of the four of them she seems to be the only one that is the type of artist where she isnt as much in charge of her creation as much as her creation is in charge of her, which adds a balance to the creative flow in the group when 2d and murdoc are mostly ego-driven and russel's approach to music is very technical.

and then of course there is the fact that she was raised as a child super-soldier. in phase 2 her noticing of the darkness in the world was likely in part a projection of the darkness she noticed in herself after her amnesia was cleared. there was the iraq war happening which through demon days she mourned over but war is what she was built for. she would mention a lot how gorillaz had childlike sentiments to it. perhaps it's because she saught out through creativity what she missed as a child: the ability to express yourself freely without any restraints. i can't imagine she's not an unhealthily repressed and militaristically tempered individual well into adulthood.

[kyliafanfiction]

So like, I don't know if it's touched on in Ward in any great detail, though likely not, but given what we know about how close Vicky and Amy were even before triggering, I wouldn't be surprised if -

Vicky probably was fully and accepting of encouraging of how much Amy just sort of followed her everywhere and always 'stuck around in her shadow' as much as she did, for a long time. I mean, she could have tried to push Amy away sooner if she felt like her sister was being too much of a tagalong, after all.

So I have to imagine that for a long time, Vicky probably liked and needed Amy being around all the time as much as Amy liked and needed to cling to Vicky.

I do imagine that by the time Vicky's serious in her relationship with Dean, and she's doing the High School thing and they both triggered and Vicky sees just how much Amy is burning the candle at both ends, she tries to encourage Amy to get out there more, and so on.

But I also wonder if Vicky would have actually been actually chill about Amy getting out there more, hanging out with other people. Like, at first she'd be thrilled about it but then she'd probably start worrying and getting protective. If Amy found someone or some group she could really connect with and started spending like, the majority of her free time, I think on some, probably unconscious level, she might start to get jealous.

She'd probably manifest that consciously as suspicion of whoever Amy is hanging with, at first. And I do think that Vicky wouldn't hold onto this suspicion and jealousy and stuff forever, Vicky is capable of improving, but I do think at first, Vicky wouldn't necessarily handle Amy finding new friends or even a girlfriend quite as easily in practice, depending on the circumstances.

(If she set Vicky up with said Girlfriend, she might handle it a bit better, I think)

Because at the end of the day, we know Victoria Dallon is as much a victim of Carol's A+ Parenting as Amy. Amy has extra issues that make Carol's shittiness hit worse, and I do think Carol was directly worse to Amy more, but Victoria came out the other end messed up and damaged too, it's just a bit more below the surface because A) Vicky has herself better together just a bit and B) Vicky's also better at pretending she has herself better together. Also she doesn't have all the shard-related issues that Amy does.

The point being, I suspect that, until that critical moment, Victoria's co-dependence on Amy, while manifesting differently and probably less severely for her ability to function day to day, was probably as or nearly as intense as Amy's co-dependence on Vicky.

But I think too many fics these days want to shy away from it, because there's been an overcompensation in recent years trying to overcorrect for the early, Pre-Ward 'Collateral Damage Barbie' flanderizaton of Vicky (though it is a flanderization she earned honestly, to be fair) that tends to I think, even in Amy-centric/pro-Amy fics, tends to gloss over Vicky's own baggage and issues.

Not all of them, and of course, fics that really center on Victoria may explore them, but then of course some Vicky-centric writers and fans hate Amy so much they like to ignore how important Amy was to Vicky, before the critical moment in 11h.

[margaretkart]

Now I hope Nolan's movie is going to be bad so we have something to talk about. Like, imagine if this is the worst version of Odysseus, and he just spends the entire movie procrastinating and cheating. it would suck but it would also spark debate about how flanderized these figures have become. One that is definitely needed Of course, in reality, I'm sure people are actually going to be mostly talking about the soundtrack.

I believe his movie will be pretty but just that. It's how you clean your house only to just hide the trash under the bed.

Surface level in general, with a good cinematography, a nice music score and effects. But that's it..first level things with nothing extraordinary.

[some-pers0n]

The worst thing is when canon itself flanderizes the characters. Not in a way where it's like "oh you don't understand these characters having multiple facets to them" but rather "the writers themselves do not understand these characters" Like somehow the nuances of them in the main source material gets lost the longer it goes on

Like I could forgive a random fanfic writer or something for flanderizing them and boiling them down to their most surface level traits. Fine. That's what you expect from fandom. When it's done by the actual writers itself is where true darkness lies

[progwords]

So. The Class of 09 pilot is out.

I know, and it's just. Boring and nothing. Everything except Emily felt like a poorly flanderized presentation of itself and it wasn't even funny aside from her.

It's not getting a deeper analysis from me, because it's not crappy for any interesting reasons. Super surface level.

I wish I could say I care that it bombed but I honestly don't. I got everything out of that series one could ever imagine, so I'm good LMAO

[themattress]

A lookback at “Enter the Florpus”

It still kind of amazes me that this movie pulled off the dual accomplishments of providing pay-off to a set-up from 18 years earlier (see also: Hey Arnold!: The Jungle Movie, which did the same for a 15 year old set-up) and providing genuine depth and meaning to both itself and the series it’s a finale to in spite of the absurdist “Lol, random!” seeming surface level.

In “The Nightmare Begins”, we see the Almighty Tallest have their eyes set on expanding the Irken Empire, but don’t want Zim to take part of it because they hate him, which leads them to send him on what they believe to be a fool’s errand to the farthest edges of the universe. But of course, Zim ended up persevering and continuing to annoy the Tallest with his belief that he’s a legitimate Invader in Operation Impending Doom II. “Enter the Florpus” gives us the ultimate breaking point, where the Tallest actually end up destroying their entire operation and empire because they are consumed by their hatred of Zim and desire to flat-out kill him.

In “The Nightmare Begins”, the fool’s errand Zim is sent on is to conquer a planet the Almighty Tallest don’t even believe to exist...which, of course, it does: it’s Earth. The following series is all about Zim’s trying and failing to conquer Earth for the Irken Empire’s sake, and in “Enter the Florpus” Zim finally realizes the futility of his efforts when he learns the Tallest have no interest in coming to Earth (although he believes it to be the direct result of all his failures rather than it being the way the Tallest have always felt) and sinks into a depression. 

In “The Nightmare Begins”, Zim is firmly established as an incompetent buffoon who will inevitably screw up his plans for conquering Earth. But after shaking off his depression in “Enter the Florpus”, Zim actually becomes so laser-focused on the goal he now sees finally within his reach that he becomes a successful threat. Of course, even at his most competent Zim is still a screw-up, as carrying out his plan ends up creating a Florpus that threatens to destroy Earth, which would leave the Tallest with no planet to conquer even if they wanted to.

In “The Nightmare Begins”, there is a climactic chase, with Dib in pursuit of Zim. Here, your sympathies are with Zim, who has just gotten to Earth and is at a disadvantage, not to mention Dib is motivated purely by his ego. The climax of “Enter the Florpus” also features Dib chasing Zim, but now the sympathies are reversed: Dib, fresh off seemingly losing his father, is motivated by the genuine desire to save Earth, while Zim holds the advantage.

In “The Nightmare Begins”, Gaz is established through swearing her older brother Dib will pay for drinking the last soda, showing that she has a fairly contentious relationship with him. In “Enter the Florpus”, Gaz ends up being the one to encourage Dib when he’s at his lowest point, expressing that no matter how much he annoys her and how often they clash, he’s still her brother whom she cares for (much needed after Season 2 flanderized her so badly).

In “The Nightmare Begins”, Professor Membrane is established by not listening to what Dib has to say since he’s busy with something, flat-out dismissing him when he tries. He keeps this up throughout the series, naturally giving Dib the impression that his father isn’t proud of his weirdo son and that exposing Zim will rectify that. In “Enter the Florpus”, in a dramatic moment Professor Membrane reveals that Dib doesn’t have to prove anything because he’s always proud of him - he genuinely never considered that his dismissiveness when busy would give Dib the impression it did because he took it as a given that his children knew he loved them and was proud of them. Now that he realizes his mistake, he showcases his development by spending the rest of the movie more attentive and openly caring toward Dib.

Speaking of Professor Membrane’s development, I feel this moment in the climax deserves more attention. Professor Membrane spends the movie thinking the whole fantastical scenario he’s in is just a dream, since everything going on is so unscientific and he can’t grasp that it could possibly be real. However, when it comes time to save Earth through a literal Yes or No selection, we see him hesitate and almost press No before then pressing Yes. So much said here without any dialogue: Professor Membrane realizes that if he presses Yes, then he’s lending this whole crisis legitimacy...he’s practically admitting that it’s not a dream and is really happening. Pressing No to not save Earth since, hey, it’s all a dream anyway...that’s more in line with what he wishes to believe. However, he still presses Yes. Why? Because even if it is a dream, he couldn’t bring himself to let his children perish. If it’s a dream and he has total control, then there’s no excuse for him to condemn even dream versions of his children to their doom along with the rest of the planet. When it mattered most, the man’s love for his kids overcame his rational scientific mind. And that’s just beautiful.

I also want to mention how wonderfully the movie solidified Dib and Zim as foils of one another. Both of them are the same but different. They are the same in that their egomania and desire to protect or conquer Earth conceals a fragile core: deep down they are insecure losers who just want to receive validation from someone they look up to - for Dib, his father, and for Zim, the Almighty Tallest. It’s what leads to Dib empathizing with Zim, and trying to help him even though it backfires horribly. But they are different in that not only does Dib start to evolve past his delusions while Zim only sinks further into them, but also their efforts are proven futile for entirely opposite reasons. Dib can never make his father proud of him because his father loves him and is already proud of him...he doesn’t need to accomplish any grand feat to prove himself to him. Zim, on the other hand, can never make the Tallest proud of him because the Tallest hate him and anything he does, even successfully, will only piss them off more as they just want to be rid of him. It really is two sides of a single coin.

Finally, the ending of the movie - and series - is just perfect, with the “lol, random!” veneer concluding the main characters in a random religious allegory. The Membrane family are left off in a state of Heaven: they love each other and are happily seated at the table for dinner. They even have a new member in Clembrane, whose existence confirms the prior ordeal to have not been a dream but Professor Membrane hilariously sticks to that story anyway because he’ll be damned if he ever admits something so unscientific out loud. The Almighty Tallest are left off in a state of Hell, literally trapped in a fiery inferno within the Florpus (and for added karma, they’re puppets now). And Zim, with GIR and Minimoose still at his side, is left off in a state of Purgatory. Never the model of sanity to begin with, Zim’s biggest and most competently executed plan failing and dooming the Irken Empire in the process has caused him to fully retreat from reality - he now claims stealing a clown doll from Dib’s house was the plan all along, makes outrageous false statements like “Zim always wins!”, and takes the Tallest’s screaming as they dance in the Florpus’ flames as a “yes” when asking if they are pleased with him as an Invader. He’s never going to stop making screwball plans to conquer Earth for the Irken Empire even when there is no more Irken Empire. The good news is that Dib will doubtlessly be all too willing to humor him, so it is kind of a happy ending for him too.

Invader ZIM: Enter the Florpus - it truly is one of the smartest dumbest movies ever.

[sparklecarehospital]

Sorry if I’m Bothering your work but why did you flanderize your characters. Why is uni becoming more depressed? Why is Barry keep getting more arguments? Why??

If you think you know anything about my character's personalities based on 3 volumes alone I think you're mistaken. I get really frustrated when people look at my characters from a surface level perspective when we're only in volume 3 of 16 of series 1 of 3. Saying I'm flanderizing my characters when you know barely anything about them yet is really bizarre. I know volume 3 gave insight into Uni's darker feelings but that isn't dominating her entire personality. Volume 4 shows her depressed a lot but It Also Shows Her Feeling Some Other Stuff so please don't generalize my characters based on how little of the story you have seen. This is such a weird accusation but I'm /nm I'm just kinda. ????????

[demeterdefence]

is there anything about lore you do like?

oh ... honey

i genuinely believe this was sent in earnest and i get that being this caught up on the series and still reading is kind of counter to "i hate this series" so genuinely: no, right now there is nothing of the series proper that i like. there is a lot i like in the potential.

the problems with lo are evident right from the start and i won't pretend otherwise; the lolita aspects, the imbalance, the casual disregard for the cultural influences and narratives of the myths and where they came from. i will also say there were some genuinely compelling plotlines and connections! i thoroughly enjoyed eros and his protectiveness of his friends, hera and her grief at being so often maligned and insulted, demeter and her everything. there were a lot of narrative choices i didn't like, but rachel was able to put some basic structures and characters in place that i, and many readers, could enjoy and often build off of ourselves.

but that's the problem. rachel sketched out some bare bone characteristics and narratives - she laid out some shoddy foundations, and the fanbase and the readers are the ones who built anything of substance on them. if you take a look at any character within the narrative proper, their entire personality and choices fall apart: they exist to prop up persephone and her romance with hades, and their own choices and decisions ultimately mean nothing otherwise. most of the story relies on fandom interpretation, and as it's been pointed out numerous times, rachel relies heavily on her fanbase to give her ideas and plotlines for future chapters. it is absurd how little characterization the story actually has, and how often it contradicts itself to bolster whatever plotline is going.

if we use hera, for example (and i'm guilty of genuinely liking hera, despite her shitty choices and actions): hera is a rape victim. she has been abused and used by men her entire life and genuinely resents herself for simply bolstering up those men, rather than exist on her own. when hera finds out persephone has been assaulted, she shows nothing but kindness and compassion - she is someone who, as the narrative tries to point out, understands the nature of assault and wants to see the perpetrators brought to justice.

but - and here's the frustration - although hera promises persephone not to tell anyone what happened, she has a moral and royal duty to bring apollo to justice. when apollo becomes a prince of olympus, she has every reason to come forward. persephone is banished, and apollo is reaping benefits he does not deserve - by becoming royal, hera knows it's going to be harder to bring him down. she has nothing to lose coming forward. moreover, she knows other people know what apollo did! the narrative has made it clear hera wants to defend persephone, but all her decisions are just left lying on the floor to keep the suspense of apollo's assault and whether he'll ever be brought to task for it.

most of the characters within lore olympus are given shallow, surface-level characteristics that they pick up and abandon to suit the storyline. we don't necessarily see them grow - they really just change to fit whatever is expected of them. persephone and hades get the highest focus, but the only actual change we see from them is for the worse; they double down on their negative traits and the narrative tries to sell them as positives, as them being "girlboss" and "king goals." a lot of the characters are flanderized to contrast them to persephone - ares goes from being genuinely cunning and incredibly insightful, if brutal and temperamental, to just some random horndog who wants to bang persephone. hermes is energetic and loving and silly and secretly cunning, to just. present? occasionally? maybe sometimes a comedic figure? hecate might be the most consistent in that she really roots for hades throughout, but she also becomes his yes-man, his frequent approver in whatever idiot plot he wants to engage in. she was able to actively stop hades from interrogating kronos after the great divide, but now she can't even convince him to think of a better plan than a risky sleep dive they already know won't work. and the only reason they're doing the sleep dive is rachel cannot figure out any other way to get the story moving!

so in incredibly long answer to your question, no, there's really nothing i enjoy per say about lore olympus, except for the select fandom circles i involve myself in - the critique of it, basically. i enjoy seeing people take these lukewarm sketches and breathe actual life into them. i enjoy random interactions in the comic that don't add up to the narrative whole but are objectively cute or funny in their singular scene (ares and hermes u will always be my babes.) and yeah, arguably i could spend my time on something productive, and i certainly have hobbies and enjoyments i genuinely like and spend time on! i'm still reading this comic because i would like to see the trainwreck, so to speak, and i love to see how the fans fix whatever mess rachel puts out. and yes i will stan for demeter until my dying breath.

[star-trek-fandom-confessions]

Commenting/responding to 1006

While I totally agree that it’d be nice to have the show delve into alien lore more, I don’t really agree on the point of singling this out as a new trek problem or saying the older series did this particularly well, to me this is a very consistent franchise-wide issue. Trek as a whole franchise- like much of mainstream sci fi, to be fair- mostly has aliens who fall into the “planet of hats” trope, which is basically just where alien/non-human species in a work tend to be defined by one particular trait or quirk. I would say the majority of Trek species fall somewhere into this category. There’s only a few that they’ve spent a lot of time exploring the cultures of- mainly Vulcans & Klingons- and another set that will get highlighted to a lesser degree, like Cardassians, Bajorans, Ferengi, now the Orions on LD like someone pointed out in reblogs, one or two others. But that second group, and even the first, still tend to get a lot of relatively surface level exploration that’s still mostly about emphasizing whatever that main defining trait is instead of exploration that changes it or adds to it, and Trek as a whole franchise does also have a bit of a habit of on-and-off flanderizing even the aliens it has given depth to. Like, pretty often, the Vulcans still tend to get reduced to Logic, Klingons to Warriors, Romulans to Bad Guy Vulcans, Cardassians to Villainous Bureaucrats, Bajorans to Religious Survivors, Ferengi to Capitalists, Orions to Criminals, etc. And this is both in the older shows and the newer ones. And there’s tons and tons of species beyond those that have had one off appearances or are mostly treated as stock background characters who haven’t ever had any real depth beyond whatever their designated defining trait is. Basically, I would also love Trek to move away from this model for more of their aliens and I would love new trek to do it more but don’t think it’s entirely fair to single it out as being the era of trek to first fall into this problem. 

.