#sweating sickness

[gwydpolls]

Time Travel Question 47: Early Modernish and Earlier 2 (Reposted. First Version Had Issues

These Questions are the result of suggestions a the previous iteration.

This category may include suggestions made too late to fall into the correct earlier time grouping. Basically, I'd already moved on to human history, but I'd periodically get a pre-homin suggestion, hence the occasional random item waaay out of it's time period, rather than reopen the category.

In some cases a culture lasted a really long time and I grouped them by whether it was likely the later or earlier grouping made the most sense with the information I had. (Invention ofs tend to fall in an earlier grouping if it's still open. Ones that imply height of or just before something tend to get grouped later, but not always. Sometimes I'll split two different things from the same culture into different polls because they involve separate research goals or the like).

Please add new suggestions below if you have them for future consideration. All cultures and time periods welcome.

[tenderbittersweet]

[dailyunsolvedmysteries]

Sweating Sickness was a mysterious illness that was documented in England between 1485 and 1551. It predominantly afflicted wealthy men in their 30s and 40s, leading to death within hours after the symptoms appeared. Its cause remains unknown, although it has been suggested that an unknown species of hantavirus may have been responsible.

[realcatalina]

Catherine of Aragon’s health-Part 2: Sweating Sickness

What exactly happened in late March 1502/April 1502 and was it Sweating Sickness which killed prince Arthur? And what exactly was Sweating Sickness? Let’s find out.

 In late March 1502, Catherine and Arthur both became sick.

Arthur never recovered, and died few days later on 2nd of April. But neither was seriously sick before. I know, I know, Dona Elvira and some others in Catherine’s household later claimed Arthur was very sick right at beginning of the marriage. But that was not the case-as far as i am concerned there are big reasons to doubt credibility of those claims. (I voiced my opinions about other reasons for not consumating in previous posts.)

Also Dona Elvira was in middle of fight with Henry VII over her wage when she said Arthur was impotent and she was overall deceitful person.

As possible cause of Arthur’s death many different diseases were discussed and even other possible reasons. Some more ridiculous than the others.

Poison- Pope Alexander and his son were poisoned in 1503. While son recovered, pope died. There’d certainly be reasons why somebody would wish to assasinate prince of Wales, and his wife could have been just colateral damage, due to sharing eviroment and food with him. This theory is not utterly outrageous, as de la Pole already fled England in 1501 and other logical step for him to get throne would be to get rid of Tudors.(One at the time.) We cannot rule this out as possibility, however royals had tasters, and nobody at time of Arthur’s death thought it was poisoning. Hence they found no signs which would make them suspicious of poison or they knew exactly what else killed him. However the notion that Henry VII killed his heir to get his widow(when he was married himself at the time) or that future Henry VIII(ten at the time) had his brother poisoned to become heir are utter bullshit.

Food poisoning-again they had tasters and food poisoning was known at the time. It also is way more likely to happen in summer than March.

Tuberculosis-doesn’t fit, because it is very lenghtly disease, takes weeks or months to kill person and their health slowly detoriates. Since Arthur died suddenly, everybody was surprised by it  and wasn’t seriously sick before, it is impossible. It’s solely due to false testimonies by Catherine’s household that this is being brought up(again and again), despite strong evidence against it.

Testicular cancer-is not contagious disease, such theory ignores that Catherine too became seriously sick. Utter nonsense.

Plague-while possible, it is unlikely because Arthur’s funeral was large, and with plague they tended to do very small funerals. Even for royalty.

Catherine after Arthur’s death was swiftly removed from Ludlow, despite being still very weak(and would continue to be for weeks that fallowed.)

Catherine’s parents were also relieved that she was removed from the unhealthy place-yet Ludlow at the time was fairly comfortable residence.

So could they mean that place was unhealthy because there was outbreak of disease? 

Most evidence points to it being a disease, including contemporary report:

[Arthur suffered from] the most pitiful disease and sickness that with so sore and great violence had battled and driven in the singular parts of him inward; that cruel and fervent enemy of nature, the deadly corruption, did utterly vanquish and overcome the pure and friendful blood, without all manner of physical help and remedy.

Translation: A violent course of disease has killed him, killed this pure, friendly prince, and there was nothing that people could do to help him.

So could it be the famous Sweating Sickness? Yes. It fits very much. Including that Catherine was removed fast. Of course her household didn’t wish to wait around to catch it, and it wasn’t as if they could just leave her there.

Yet at same time it wasn’t as extremely contagious as Plague(even back then they realised it), so that explains larger funeral.

But how could it be so feared, if it was less contagious? 

The answer lie in how Sweating Sickness acted. 

Up to this day we don’t know what the disease was, what was the cause, exactly how it spread and actually not even how it affected inner organs(nobody did autopsies). It doesn’t show up on bones either.

There is even not agreed date when it first appeared in England. Some say it came to England in 1485 with Henry VII’s troops. But lord Stanley initially excused himself from battle of Bosworth due to Sweating Sickness being in the era. Meaning at least he has seen it before and feared it. 

Now, it might be proof that Stanley had been in touch with Henry VII and might have even personally met him and seen what the disease can do.

Or disease already occured in England before.  If it was case and disease really originated in England, Henry VII’s troops having it would indicate Henry VII met some Englishmen before he embarked for England. We know he did, several English nobles joined his ranks. Besides how could Stanley excuse himself upon disease Richard never seen before? Seems to not fallow common sense.

But back to what the disease did.

I am no expert upon Sweating sickess, I found disertation work of Mr Edwin Del Wollert about Sweating Sickness, and I am taking a lot of details about this disease from his work. (if anybody is interested look it up) 

I had to google some words he used(as i didn’t understand half of those medical terms), so I updated his list for you

-the full list of symptoms include:

·         Sudden onset and violent course of disease

·         Sweating, great thirst and great weakness, including fainting

·         Fever, pains in limbs, head and belly

·         Rapid pulse, rapid breathing, quick heartbeat, flushing

·         Vomiting, bleeding and diarhea

·         Neurological symptoms-confusion, irritation, paranoia

·         Signs of organ failure-resulting in death.

Chills or cold shivers also happened ( likely as last stage of dehydration, signalling body is about to give up.)

Truly unpleasant way to go, and truly violent course of disease+ the sudden onset was why it was so feared(alongside death-rate). It struck often out of nowhere, but struck hard.

Many of those symptoms are signs of severe dehydration, and they occured even before strong sweating began(which was usually 2nd stage). As if person was cooking up from inside right from beginning. (Those are my observations not Mr Wollert’s.) 

If so, the recommended methods of treathing the sick of the time, had actually contributed to patients’ deaths.

Because they recomended to wrap them in warm clothing and not give them anything to drink. (Nor eat, but the drink part is more important here.). 

Which is exact oposite of how we recommend to treat severe dehydration, by giving person plenty of fluids and by keeping them cool.

That might have been why the disease was so deadly in England. 

Wrong treatment!

Idk if cooking of the organs could explain why Arthur’s stomach was collapsing inwards. If you cook meat, it shrinks a bit...so maybe his organs shrunk? But true to be told it could be something else disease did to his organs, creating same effect on outside. While yes, that can also happen during cancer, it would still be impossible for cancer to become contagious and for Arthur’s spouse to catch it. So I am standing behind my statement that it is utter nonsense. 

Mr Wollert also mentions that sweating crisis when person is very weak could last 3-14 days(not hours). I believe he is not saying that is how long one would be severely sick, but how long it took for symtoms to go away. 

(Though I can be mistaken.)

(With flu also you have several days where you feel really sick and then few days, when you’re still bit sick but don’t feel like dying-i believe he means this stage, and then if your disease was bad case, you can still feel weak even after this.)

However the disease could kill you as quickly as in couple of hours, or in just few days(which was case in Arthur.)

Another very important trait of Sweating Sickness was that you could get it more than once! Living through it, didn’t give you imunity to it!

Also, some people even after they survived could suffer long-term consequences. 

That thankfully wasn’t the case with Catherine. But after Arthur died Catherine spent weeks recovering. She probably wasn’t still well when Henry VII started to inquire if she was with child or not. Hence her not being to able to tell him outright, that there was no hope of a child. 

When she was well enough to join the court, negotiations for match with new prince of Wales have already started. 

I hope you have enjoyed it. Please be polite in comments or rebloging.

Update: As I said before people later testified stating Arthur was sick. Either that at beginning of marriage or upon coming to Ludlow he supposedly became sick.

Majority of these were former or current members of Catherine’s household or people who met them-claiming they heard them say something.

+ some English people also voiced something of the sort around same time.

Two problems I have with these reports:

A)They appeared during Great Matter. During that time, truth didn’t matter that much to either side. It’s time of half-truths, half-lies. 50% of truth and you don’t know which 50%. 

B)Some of these are not even from  primary source(person who was there), but secondary. They heard it from somebody. Or claim to heard it. 

Hearsay is not very credible! 

I am not sure because it has been long since I read up upon this stuff, but I vaguely recall that Catherine’s former physican was dead during Great Matter and instead of him testifying, somebody who met him testified instead. Hence that 2nd person could completely be making stuff up.

(But perhaps my recall is wrong. I am human I do mistakes.)

The primary person was dead already. And it gets misquoted, as if that person himself testified.

I’d  also very much caution against using Suffolk as credible source for Arthur being sick since February. Because credibility of Suffolk is imo 0. He was overall very immoral person and very ambitious. Look up his first marriages, and how he tried to make Margaret of Austria to marry him! How he swore to not marry Mary Rose, and then he did it anyway!

He was exact oposite of honourable and trust-worthy!

That he wouldn’t have reason to lie because he was king’s friend? 

He was married to King’s sister, younger sister true, but if King didn’t have a son and wasn’t allowed to remarry, then perhaps English lords could be persuaded to reject Margaret and her Scottish son, in favour of Suffolk and his wife!

He was certainly ambitious enough for me to believe he’d lie for the throne!

It could also be the case that Arthur caught something very minor during late winter 1502, and while still not 100% recovered, he was unfortunate enough to catch Sweating Sickness, which then killed him. And later people overexagerated his minor sickness to give their version of story more credibility.

Still I believe Queen Catherine was telling the truth. People around her just had tendency to embelish the story beyond recognition.

[lazylittledragon]

hey idk which anxious pre-t babe needs to hear this but i didn't get to when i was younger so. testosterone will not make you ugly. it won't make you a horrible person. it won't 'mutilate' or ruin your body. if you want to go on testosterone then literally all that happens is it makes you really fucking hot and REALLY fucking happy.

[wasabi-gumdrop]

Kabru has a secret admirer in the castle!

[opikiquu]

these 2 gonna drive me insane

[ohposhers]

what if i went clinically insane for like 5 seconds

[just-another-mess-in-a-dress]

I can't stop thinking about that one time that I was studying abroad and I had the WORST cold of my life and I took my temperature and burst into tears because it was 102 and I didn't know how to translate that into Celsius (I was so delirious I didn't remember that automatic thermometers can like... just switch to Celsius for you) and also I couldn't remember how to say "I'm sick" in my host language and just... all the potential of this scenario guys I am rattling the bars of my enclosure

[kobb4ni2]

(ORGANIZING WHAT I SAID BEFORE)

Please PLEASEEEEEEEEE

KATAKURI ON MY KNEES BEGGING RN 🙏😔✨

FOR AN IDEA MAYBE READER IS A PATISSERIE AND THEY'RE FROM MODERN TIMES SO THEY KNOW SOME DESSERTS THAT DOESNT EXIST? (MOCHI DONUTS BRO😔 I LOVE THEM SM)

LETSS GOO, dude I’ve never heard of mochi donuts bro, Kuwait is so small that we rarely have good stuff here 😭😭😭

AAA BUT THIS ASK SOOO FREAKING GOOD BROO,

Imagine if you’re just a normal baker in the 21st century’s then one day you’re just in the one piece verse. You’re just trying to live your life in a normal island in the New World beside seeing giants literally ordering a huge ass box of your pastries💀

And I can’t imagine futuristic desert IM VERY SORRY but I can imagine Patisserie! Reader making different kind of sweet around the world from their universe, it will certainly get a lot of attention from all over the New World, ESPECIALLY THE BIG MOM PIRATESS

Aaaa once Big mom tasted one if your sweet she knew that she have to keep you one way or another😈😈

Katakuri would be so hooked on your mochi donuts too dawg, he might just propose to you 😩😩😩

[chocolatecakecas]

the way that even at the mere mention of the 5th we break out in a cold sweat and start shouting complete nonsense that only we can understand and suddenly every second of those 2 weeks instantaneously comes rushing back. like someone will literally post a screencap with no text and suddenly we need the fainting couch. it's been 3 years you literally can't get this anywhere else

[lotus-pear]

i wish all people who use others' art as a means for financial profit a very fucking kill yourself. i mean it.

[skyward-floored]

Imagine if at some point after finding out about his true heritage HDW Wars gets sick but with every sneeze he accidentally sneezes fire and no one can figure out how to stop it.

So I don't know if I want this to be how Zelda actually finds out but I couldn't resist writing this—

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"No no, seriously, don't go in there!" Mask says with an increasing amount of panic, moving to block Zelda's path to Link's tent. "He's like, uh, he's really sick! Like, like throwing up and coughing and sneezing on everything, it's super gross! You don't want to go in there!"

Zelda raises an eyebrow.

“Mask, I'm more then well-aquainted with 'super gross sickness', as you put it. It’ll take more then that to stop me from visiting Link.”

“But... you might get sick!” Mask quickly argues, and Zelda considers for a moment. Then she continues forward.

“That’s true. But I doubt five minutes to wish Link well and check up on him will hurt anything."

"W-well, he," Mask splutters as Zelda strides past, "he, he doesn't want to see you!"

"Oh, is that so?" Zelda asks a tad mischeviously. "Funny, a minute ago you said Proxi was busy and that Link was so sick he could barely speak. How is it that you know what he wants?"

"Uh... that was before he couldn't speak," Mask quickly adds, but Zelda merely strides around him, nearly to the entrance of Link's tent. "Wait wait wait!"

Zelda pauses with her hand on the flap, looking down at Mask, who's still trying to block her while sporting a very odd expression on his face.

"...Is anything I say going to keep you out?" he asks, sounding like he already knows the answer.

"I'm afraid not."

Mask grimaces.

"Well... alright. If he asks, tell him I tried, and don't say I didn't warn you," he mutters, and steps aside. "You might wanna watch your hair."

Zelda raises an eyebrow, but Mask doesn't elaborate, and she enters the tent.

The first thing she notices is the smell of smoke in the air, just thick enough to be noticeable upon entering. The small lantern lit on the table doesn’t seem big enough to make the tent smell as smoky as it does, but nothing else seems to be on fire, and her attention is quickly drawn to the cot in the corner.

Link looks miserable, curled up under a thin blanket, dressed in only his undertunic and pants, and shivering hard enough that Zelda can see it from where she stands. Tune is sitting next to him with a bucket at his feet, and the sailor looks just as worried as she feels.

Tune looks up as she walks in, startles, then turns a glare on Mask.

"Mask, you—"

"I know, I know. Look she has to find out eventually, why not now?" Mask huffs, crossing his arms.

"He didn't want her to find out like this, he wanted to actually tell her," Tune hisses, and Mask has the decency to look a bit guilty.

"Have me find out what, exactly?" Zelda interrupts, and Tune and Mask both look at her, strange expressions on their faces. Neither of them gets a chance to speak though, as Link suddenly groans, and screws his face up.

“...Uh oh.”

"Hit the deck!" Mask yelps, and Zelda has just enough time to wonder what in the name of the goddesses is going on before Link lets out a loud sneezing cough.

Which sends a small burst of flame straight across the tent.

Zelda jumps back in surprise, and Tune quickly grabs the bucket at his feet and splashes water on the part of her skirts that ended up catching the edge of Link’s flames.

Smoke drifts from Zelda's now-doused skirt, and Link groans, Tune gently patting him on the head.

Zelda stares.

“How on earth..?” she breathes, and Tune and Mask look up at her, then at each other. “Is he all right? Is this a curse? How is it that he’s breathing fire?”

“Sneezing fire, technically,” Mask corrects, and Tune elbows him.

“Look, it’s... it's a little hard to explain,” Tune says carefully, and Zelda crosses her arms, suspicions suddenly raised.

“Was this one of you two’s faults?”

“No! Of course not! Look, it’s just...” Tune says, obviously struggling, and Mask sighs and gestures to Link.

“Turns out his dad is Volga,” he says simply.

Zelda blinks.

“Link’s... father. Is Volga. The dragon knight.”

Mask and Tune nod.

“That’s the one,” Mask says.

A lot of odd things that’ve happened in the past month suddenly add up in Zelda's head, strange looks, awkward avoidances, the uncertain glint that sometimes appears in Link's eyes. Zelda had assumed most of that was because of her hiding Sheik's identity (and she does still feel guilty about that), but Volga being Link's father...

Zelda’s head spins, but she doesn’t have time to ask further questions, as Link drags his eyes open with a groan.

“Captain?” Tune asks, and Link looks at him, face haggard with exhaustion. His gaze drifts around the tent, pausing on Mask for a moment, then drifting past him and settling on Zelda. Link stares at her, startles, then pushes himself upward, raising a hand in a shaky salute before Mask shoves him back down.

“Your Highness,” he croaks, and Zelda winces at how painful his voice sounds.

“At ease Link, you don’t need to treat me like that,” she assures, almost wishing she was still in disguise as Sheik. Link was never so concerned with protocol around her then. “Especially not while you’re sick.”

“‘S just a cough,” he rasps, and Tune sighs.

“Yeah, a cough that’s making you sneeze fire. Not exactly ‘just’ a cough.”

Link hums in a croaky way, then he startles as he realizes just what Tune has said, and looks at Zelda. Blue eyes meet blue, and Zelda can practically see the thoughts running rampant through Link's head.

"Y-your Highness, I'm—"

"Link," Zelda interrupts, her voice gentle. "Tune and Mask already told me. You don't need to hide it."

She sees him swallow, and Tune pushes his head back down to his pillow, a little frown appearing on his face when Link barely resists.

"So you... know," Link whispers, closing his eyes with a small cough. The action sends some smoke puffing from his lips. "My father's... Volga."

"Yes," Zelda replies, the shock beginning to fade, but still present.

There's always been something a little different about Link, something that set him apart from the other soldiers. Zelda had always thought it was more due to being the Hero, or the piece of Triforce he held, not... being related to a dragon.

She brushes her thoughts aside. "I apologize. Mask did his best to keep me out."

"She's too stubborn," Mask huffs, crossing his arms.

Tune's face hitches up in a smile. "Zeldas always are."

Link looks slightly more at ease, but still uncertain, and his eyes drag open again, circles dark beneath them.

"Princess," he begins in a rasp, "I know... it isn't much, but I promise you I am loyal to the crown. Volga is still my enemy. I wasn't a... aware of his relation to me until very... recently."

"Link, I didn't come in here to question your loyalties," Zelda says, pulling a chair over and sitting by his bed. "And I'm not in the practice of judging others on the actions of their parents. I heard you were ill, and came to see how you were doing."

Link blinks at her, and Zelda reaches a cautious hand out to feel his forehead, wincing at the heat radiating off of it.

"You have quite the fever," she says as she looks over at Tune, and he nods, eyebrows pinching together in worry.

"I know. We're not really sure what to do for him. We were just treating it normally, but then he started the fire thing..." he trails off, and scratches the back of his neck.

"Impa's getting a book that has some information on dragons in it though, she's hoping it'll help," Mask adds, and Zelda hums, pulling her hand back from Link’s forehead. She’d wondered where Impa had gone off to.

"I take it she's aware of this information too then?"

Something flickers in Tune's gaze. "She is."

Link screws his face up again, and Zelda dodges the flames that come out when he sneezes this time, Mask splashing some water on the corner of the tent the flames try to lick at.

“Uh... I’ll get more water,” he says as he looks down at the empty bucket, and slips out of the tent. Zelda is left alone with Tune and Link, and Tune sighs, brushing some of Link’s hair out of his face.

Zelda watches them in silence for a moment, Link’s raspy breathing the only sound in the tent.

“I hate to pry, especially while you’re sick, Link, but... when did you learn of your father?” Zelda finally asks, voice soft. “You said it was recently. Did Volga tell you?”

“No. It was before Cia split time,” he whispers. “That day she ended up... talking to me alone. She told me about Volga.”

Anger on Link’s behalf rises up in Zelda as he coughs again, from ending up alone with their enemy, from hearing such sensitive information from Cia of all people, from becoming such a major player in this war at all... but she tampers it down, and meets his eyes, dull with sickness.

“I’m sorry,” Zelda says quietly.

Link lets out a raspy sigh, and closes his eyes again. “I’ve had some time to... come to terms with it.”

He lets out another abrupt sneeze, flames shooting across the tent, and another several accompany it, the fire brighter each time. Zelda leaps to her feet, but before the flames can cause any damage, Tune whips out the wind waker and blows them all out.

The sneezes seems to have taken what’s left of Link’s strength, and he curls up again, looking exhausted as Tune lets out a sigh of relief. The younger hero pulls the blanket over Link’s shoulders as he tucks the wind waker back in his pocket, and then he smiles a little apologetically at Zelda.

“I think he could use some more rest,” he says, and Zelda nods, dusting some ashes off her skirts. She’s likely going to smell of smoke for a while.

“Of course. I need to be on my way anyway,” she sighs, not looking forward to going back to her maps and strategies.

Zelda looks down at Link, eyes closed in exhaustion, shoulders faintly shivering, the smell of smoke and sickness about him, and she swallows.

“I hope you feel better soon, Link.”

“Thank you your highness,” Link whispers in response, and sighs, seeming to fall asleep moments later.

“...he’s quite sick, isn’t he?” Zelda says once she’s sure he’s asleep.

“He could be worse, but... yeah,” Tune says quietly, then smiles at her. “But Impa will be back later, and I bet she’ll have some information for us. Link’ll be fine.”

“I’m sure he will. He’s terribly resilient,” Zelda says with a small smile of her own. “Thank you for looking after him.”

Tune shrugs. “Somebody’s gotta stop him from setting the whole camp on fire.”

Zelda can’t help her chuckle at that, and Tune lets out a laugh of his own as he walks her out, pausing at the tent flap.

“Princess... would you keep all of this to yourself?” Tune asks her, a strange expression flitting across his face. “Link’s still struggling with it, and if the rest of the army knew...”

“I won’t say a word,” Zelda promises, and Tune relaxes a hair. “Only to Impa, or you and Mask.”

“Thank you,” Tune says gratefully.

Zelda takes his hand and gives it a squeeze. “You’re welcome, Tune. I’ll try and come back once Impa returns, maybe we can all discuss this together.”

Tune’s eyes do something funny again at the mention of Impa. “Maybe. See you, Zelda.”

Zelda says goodbye in return, and Tune slips back inside the tent, a puff of ash accompanying him.

She stands there for a few moments longer, thinking about Link and Volga, and Impa a little as well. She’s curious about what this all means for Link, being part dragon (whole dragon?), and what he’s doubtlessly been going through since he found out.

She wonders how Impa found out about all of this as well. Did Link tell her? Or Tune perhaps? Was Link concerned about what him being related to their enemy would mean? And how long has Impa known of the identity of Link’s father?

Zelda shakes her head, scattering her thoughts, and begins the walk back to her tent.

“So many questions,” she sighs to herself, and rubs some more ashes from her skirts.

As if this war weren’t already complicated enough.

[shepscapades]

Hahahahahahaha (if someone doesn’t tell me what happened to Other Grian right this second I might explode)

[daeluin]

I still think "my mind is a safe and if I keep it, then we all get rich. my body is an orphanage we take everyone in" is one of the rawest most fucked up lyrics pete has ever written that then got put into a song.

like srsly 27 is such a fucked up song, specially if you put it in the context of when folie came out

[how-much-for-a-whump]

WHUMPTOBER day 29:

Prompt: "What happened to me?"

Kurak Günler (2022)