#tell me you don't actually understand daenerys without telling me

[gold-rhine]

For the ask game :tell me why you love nuevi or kaeya! Feel free to talk A Lot I like your long posts

i also love reading my long posts, i wish i wrote them more asdfghjk its hard for me to just talk unspecifically about character without like pointed theme bc to me it feels like everything is obvious and everyone understands same things, why am i spelling it out.

anyway, KAEYA. my prettiest cursed princess. noble daughter of the fallen aristocratic family with generational curse coded. jon snow AND daenerys targaryen vibes at the same time. why noble daughter? bc instead of how heirs of nobles are kept close and taught to rule, his family treats him like pawn, like currency, his fate determined at his birth with no agency, sent away to another family he has to fit in. he's not a bastard, but he is half blood, and he cannot return. he's brother to diluc, but not equal, no matter how much they get along, like jon to robb stark. dawn winery is not his home, he's only welcomed conditionally, when diluc allows it. told to be "last hope", but what he's last hope of is a rotting cursed shambles of hubris. but even with how badly he was treated, he's still torn with loyalty to them, with duty, he still tried to ran away to khaenriah as a kid, just like dany wants to go to westeros. terrible prophecy hangs over him and he knows it. we don't even know if alberichs were really regents or if clothar is just delusional and sees himself forming abyss order as "regency"! he wants to walk off the stage, but he can't. and even if he could, he won't, not in the end, because against his will he still cares about people left on that stage who do not know what they are in

and he's coping with all of that by not letting people close even though he's lonely bc that curse and prophecies hang over him, bc he learnt from diluc he will not be accepted unconditionally no matter how loyal he is, no matter how good of a friend and brother he is, no matter how much punishments he takes for diluc and how he follows him like a shadow. he tried so hard to be a perfect child in dawn winery, polite and sweet and it didn't matter in the end. and now he's hating himself for secrecy and underhanded ways he was forced into as a child and deeming himself bad, finding ways to blame himself even for doing good deeds bc he's such a manipulator, treating relationships as transactions of favors to keep score, to keep in control.

mask worn for long, it grew into him and is impossible to take off now. "and they say my charm is fake" he IS naturally charming, he just had to learn to use it as a weapon. he IS sweet and interested in people, he just had to learn to get profit out of it. the worst thing he could be is himself. sad adult with a fake smile. and at the same time he's proud, he's talented, he's funny and sarcastic, he likes goofy jokes and slipping clever metaphors into silly stories, he likes writing books for people he cares about with advises on how to solve problems and deal with people, and also likes telling stories and can improvise a monologue on a stage. he should have been an actor and a writer, but duty to one father threw him into mond and duty to the other locked him into knights, so now he's just miserable, he's a hedonist, a cynic, he can't have real connections, so he will take pleasure and attention and use it for his greater means, he's coping with substance abuse, but he is so paranoid he will not be caught actually drunk bc that's weakness. he wants to belong so much, but think he's not allowed to. traveler finding him in the shadows after he tries to leave community event HE organized and dragging his reluctant ass by hand is THE theme for them tbh.

[dontbotherwiththepronunciation]

I fantasise about Ramsay's death a lot

I think Ramsay will be killed at some point during ASOIAF but I've been wondering how and what exactly we could get for the narrative of certain characters depending on the different outcomes and I am insomniac so I want to write something more or less useful so I can sleep or at least avoid intrusive thoughts.

So, here is a poll with possible outcomes for Ramsay's death, some of them I've read in meta posts, others are simply stuff I thought could be thematically coherent. Under the read more I added my own preferences because I'm feeling bold. You don't have to read those, but I would love it if you tell me some of yours. And you can tell me all you want about that? Is your answer motivated simply for shipping reasons? Simply for revenge? Do you think it will actually happen? I just like reading other people's thoughts.

My Preferences:

1. Killed off-screen by an unnamed lowborn

My personal favourite. I don't think Ramsay will get an off-screen death scene with an "irrelevant" character and I understand why but until it happens I get to fantasise and while I think for many this would be considered unsatisfying or anti-climactic, to me it would feel thematically coherent and beautiful.

Ramsay Bolton, the living nightmare, a monster from hell, killed by some rando. Someone who wouldn't make it down in history, someone who would be forgotten, someone who would be seen as disposable and irrelevant.

Through this we could have what is, in my opinion, the biggest offence ever directed at Ramsay AND a really sad and harrowing exploration of Theon and Jeyne's feelings on the matter.

Surprisingly, I was never feeling frightened by Euron as I read AFFC, the fear only settled when I read Aeron's preview chapter for TWOW. I was terrified (/pos) how could I not be? The eyes through which I witness all are tainted by terror during that chapter.

With Ramsay the more you think about how our perception of him is one conditioned by Theon's powerlessness, the less mighty he actually becomes. He is not a monster, he is a human like everyone else, he can be killed like everyone else and the concept of knocking him down from this idea he has built around himself, as a creature one should be frightened of, to have him become so irrelevant to the text that we don't even get to witness his death nor know anything about the killer because there is nothing that could be interesting or worthy of mention about that killer is wonderful to me. It makes Ramsay irrelevant and unworthy of mention.

And yet, I also think it would be very tragic for Theon without inflicting any sort of pain on him. Through ADWD he keeps fantasising about killing Ramsay and every single time he keeps himself from actually doing it because at this point Ramsay isn't a person for Theon, he is an omnipotent entity that builds and destroys. So, if he were to find out that Ramsay was easily subdued by someone with no name, no house, no military power, a no one, that could destroy his self esteem. It could lead into even more feelings of guilt and shame while ultimately proving that Ramsay isn't really all that.

I think people (me) often believe in what they like to believe and I would like to believe this is an actual possibility even if the more conscious side of my brain is thinking "Wtf are you on? GRRM is not gonna do that. Do you think he is stupid enough to be this anti-climactic about something everyone is eagerly waiting for since a decade? You think he wants to have people saying show!Ramsay's death was better than book!Ramsay's?" So, yeah I don't believe this will actually happen, I would love it if it did, it would be very meaningful to me, but I have no expectations and I understand how this is probably not something most people would enjoy.

2. Fed to his dogs by Barbrey

All the reasons I want him to be eaten by his gos (listed down in 4.) + my anti-vaxxer, conspiracy theorist, Karen Queen Barbrey Dustin.

I have a horribly unpopular opinion about Ramsay's dogs that would get me cancelled for animal cruelty (/hj) and I have a lot of very personal feelings about this woman.

If she is supposed to be a woman who knows how to nurse a grievance (hot) then why would she be alright with letting the boy she thinks killed her surrogate son become Lord of Winterfell or even King in the North? She openly spits on Ramsay (hot) and even defies him through her conversations with Theon. The idea of her being a conspirator among the Manderlys and the Glovers isn't something I've been bought into yet because I still believe in her distaste for the Starks™ being real (hot), but I can't imagine she would feel any more tranquility at the idea of Ramsay turning into her liege lord, if anything I think she would be terrified because HAVE YOU NOT HEARD OF WHAT HAPPENED TO THE LAST NORTHERN AGEING WIDOW WHO RULED ON HER OWN WITH LANDS TO HER CLAIM AND NO APPARENT HEIRS????

"Me," said Ramsay. "Ramsay of House Bolton, Lord of the Hornwood, heir to the Dreadfort.

To me, that sounds like the vague reminder of a threat.

We have also seen a few moments in which she not only makes her disdain for him public, but also defies him! Prohibiting him from entering into Barrow Hall, treating Theon with something similar to dignity (I know it's only mildly implied but if we ever get confirmation on her being the one who gave him the cloak he wears during A Ghost in Winterfell I will scream and cry ) and she also constantly refers to him as "Bastard" although he has been legitimised)

Also, while I believe she probably knows "Arya Bolton née Stark" is a fake, I doubt she knows it's Jeyne Poole and I also doubt she didn't feel at least some guilt over handing her to Ramsay.

When Jeyne is asking Theon to escape with her she mentions "They said he hurt you." Who said that? Who is they? Could Barb be one of them? Was she warning her? I think it's possible, but I know this is only me assuming things. I have no evidence for anything.

There would also be a lot of irony built around that considering Ramsay's comment on Reek |||:

"If I cut off her teats and feed them to my girls, will she abide me then?"

In a sense I also really love the idea of Ramsay's bones finding themselves in kennels (something Barb is already planning on doing to Ned's (hot)). If both of them find their resting place among the dogs, oh I would feel so much.

Before anyone starts believing I think Ned is as horrible as Ramsay, no I don't. Ned is honourable and just at his best and hypocritical and self-righteous at his worst. Ramsay is himself at his worst and Reek at his best.

The reason I would enjoy this wouldn't be out of thinking that Ned "deserves" that, it would be because Ned and Ramsay are the two people who have hurt this woman the most and also the two people who have deprived Theon of his designated life the most.

3. Public execution by a non-Northerner leader

This is the one I find the most probable to be honest.

Westeros' feudalism seems to be better for the common folk after the Targaryen conquest than they were prior to it. I really doubt GRRM will be willing to dissolve them and send them even further back into an even more inequalitarian feudalism. By having an outsider bring the Northerners their "justice" it would be easier to get them to wilfully decide to reintegrate themselves into the Seven Kingdoms, which is where the Davos-Rickon-Stannis plot will apparently go.

Stannis is already waiting for the battle of Winterfell and I have no idea whether he will win or not, but I think as of now killing the bastard is on his priority list. There is a possibility that he might not kill him immediately but just keeps him captive, and that could be very very fun. While I wouldn't want Theon & Ramsay to have to interact again, I understand how appealing this could be for so many of us. I don't really have anything against this, I just like the other two options mentioned above more.

Asha would be the only case I can think of in this option that could be motivated by more than political plotting or a sense of justice, but also because of personal feelings regarding Theon's trauma. If it were to happen, I doubt it would be a proper execution though, I can see this happening more on the battlefield. I think there could be some beauty in Ramsay "I-rape-girls-for-fun" Snow to find his demise at Asha and her suckling babe, a warrior woman who is also the sister of the man he has been humiliating (to say the least) for the past year. There could be some poetic justice in that. Politically it could also be fun to see the Northerners being confronted by having the Ironborn retaking Winterfell for them and the way their perception of the Iron Islanders could change because of it could be fun and maybe serve as a mirror to the way Asha & Aly have been developing mutual respect for each other. Anyway, here you can find art depicting her & Ramsay as David & Goliath and I love it.

Thematically I would love it if Daenerys would somehow manage to teleport to Winterfell and kill him and be confronted by two uncommon characters that share some similitudes to her past as a child of war & child bride and her actual cause (you can read about those similitudes in this post and this post), but I'm not delusional and I doubt Daenerys will reach the North before Ramsay has been killed so I don't believe it's very probable for them to meet. This is just me being self-indulgent because of the childish wish of wanting my favourite POV characters to interact.

4. Eaten by his dogs our of their own will

As said, I have that one opinion about his dogs and this could go well with it. A taste of his own medicine. Revenge from the deceased. Dog eats dog. Poetic in a sense; The spirits of the women he has raped and hunted and made to be reborn in the bodies of the weapons used against them to take part in the process of making other innocent women join them, finally break free and take revenge against their murderer.

Pretty much the same reasons as to why I like Barbrey feeding him to his dogs, but now there is something more mystique about it. Theon often refers to them as good dogs and it seems like their kennel master Ben Bones also feels fondness for them. Both of them consider the master to be the true monster there, and yet these are still no gentle creatures.

5. Killed by Theon

I feel very ambivalent on this one and most of my reluctance comes from not trusting GRRM's writing abilities to depict it in a way that I find compelling. I love revenge stories, but I rarely like their endings. I love revenge stories, I just rarely like the way they end. "When you go on a journey for revenge you dig two graves instead of one" Sometimes. Sometimes you also dig just one grave but have to spend the rest of your day laying next to the corpse of your never-ending anger and rage. I don't enjoy it a lot when achieving justice or revenge is portrayed in a purely happy light. It doesn't erase everything that has ever happened, it makes you feel unhappy because you know that no suffering inflicted on your abuser could possibly be enough to fulfil the void inside you. It isn't something, it is devastating. Good, now Theon killed him, he is gone, he will never hurt him again, now what? Now what? Is that supposed to be liberating? He is still perpetually changed and now he doesn't even have a target for all that pent-up rage and frustration to be directed at and (Can you tell I'm part of the minority that liked TLOU2 even more than TLOU? ), to me, the concept of adding Ramsay to the long lists of ghosts haunting Theon feels so harsh. I could enjoy it a lot!!! It's just that I doubt it would be written that way and the options mentioned above are more to my taste. I think that if Theon is the one that gets to kill Ramsay it will probably be portrayed in a more triumphant manner, maybe trying to convey Theon's complete rebirth and the deaths of Reek the Second (Ramsay) and Reek the Third (Theon at the Dreadfort) and, even though "Dead is dead. Better dead than Reek" is one of my favourite Theon moments ever, I don't really believe he should completely cast it aside.

"Reek, reek it rhymes with freak/weak/meek/etc." Sure! But also, were it not for Reek he'd probably not be alive. I don't know. I don't like the idea of him reappropriating that name like a minority would reappropriate a slur, but I don't think he should fully reject it either. In a sense, I believe the Reek persona allowed him to find some strange type of mental freedom in regards to "Theon" as a political pawn. Many of the conflicts he had to deal with during ACOK involving his cultural duality and his political standing disappear once he is conditioned into Reek (granted not in a healthy way) and I think that allowed him to develop into his own self more. I don't know If what I'm saying makes any sense. Not a favourite, but still something I could like. Personally, I would like it more if their last conversation was something completely mundane since I think that is very insulting to Ramsay, but it could be cool to have a final scene of them interacting in which Theon openly defies him and Ramsay is perplexed by realising he has been beaten by a creature "lower than a worm in human skin." Ramsay probably hasn't read his Shakespeare, GRRM has. Even a worm will turn.

Here, is the idea someone wrote for a scene emulating the confrontation between a slasher and the final girl and it was fun to read it.

6. Killed by Theon & Jeyne

I dislike it for similar reasons as to why I dislike Theon killing him, and I really don't like the idea of Jeyne being part of it, but I think there would be a lot of value in abuse victims coming together against their abuser and perhaps it would make their bond even stronger which would always be a perk to me because they are the relationship I care about the most in here and I just want them to be a supportive presence in each other's life. As said, I just like the idea of Theon/Jeyne never having to see Ramsay again. I think that is a slight to Ramsay.

7. Public execution by a Stark or a Stark loyalist

Depending on the Starkling doing the execution we could get a glimpse of affection for Theon and Jeyne, which I wouldn't like. Mostly because of personal issues with how the "friendships" between Theon-Jeyne and their respective Stark BFFs are something I interpret very differently to the fandom's common perception.

I also really want Theon to liberate himself from the "The Starks™ were your true family" motto, and the narrative portraying them through a purely heroic and victorious light would annoy me (I like all of the Stark kids as individuals, I just don't like the Starks™). Especially in Ramsay's case, I think it could easily be interpreted as the Starks™ being Theon & Jeyne's saviours.

I do understand how Ramsay, as part of House Bolton and the current Lord of Winterfell, isn't a villain designated to be solely attached to Theon & Jeyne. Politically he and Roose are the Starks' biggest opponents and threats, so I would understand it if GRRM still chooses to take this route (preferably through Jon or Arya) and could hopefully still find some enjoyment in it.

Something I think could be interesting but, similarly to the Daenerys example, is very far-fetched from actually happening, is if one of Lady Stoneheart's companions would be the one. Maybe Harwin. It could mix well with my favourite possibility.

8. Killed by supernatural force

My personal exception would maybe be one involving Bran. Out of the Starks and semi-Starks (Catelyn, Jon), his and Theon's relationship is the one I find the most interesting and it could be very emotional to see this little boy who was a victim of Theon's actions during ACOK be the one to smite Theon's tormentor. Years ago I saw this art depicting Bran and the Children of the forest warging into Ramsay's dogs and killing him while defending Theon & Jeyne and I still like the idea. The only real thing that would bother me in Ramsay dying at the hands of a supernatural force is that it acts as an opposite to my favourite option. If he is killed by someone inhumanely powerful, what does that say about him and his strength? Does that mean Theon's view of him as an all-seeing, all-hearing, all-knowing entity is not based on his own fear? Is Ramsay really such a monster he can only be brought down by another monster?

9. Killed by Jeyne

This one seems to be a fairly popular option, especially loved by Sansa fans and I understand why. There is a surprisingly big amour of art and memes and I can see the appeal but to me, it would feel very tragic which is why I like it the least. Jeyne is a character who has suffered so much while having very little involvement in the events that lead to that suffering. We only have limited information on Jeyne as a person and her role in the narrative is that of a vessel for other people's feelings (which is alright, we need secondary characters) and considering how she has been canonically appalled and repulsed by violence even before she was subjected to horrible acts of violence (being frantic about the Hound killing Mycah, having a meltdown at the tourney, being extremely distressed by the massacre at King's Landing), it would be very sad to witness her becoming a perpetrator of violence even if it would be justified. To me, it would feel like she has lost another part of herself to the trauma inflicted upon her by Ramsay. She has bled too much, I don't want her to have to stain herself in other's blood either.

I have come across other theories, but those are the ones (that I can group) that feel the most plausible to me. Roose or Mance killing Ramsay still deserve mentions of honour, but I don't have too many feelings about those. With Mance it could help bring Wildling and Northerners together and if it were Roose that would probably mean that Walda is withchild and that the Northern plot line might take longer than we all thought it would.

I don't fully oppose any of these options though! And I think there could be narrative value to all of them. As said, these are just personal opinions.

Anyway, I'm gonna go listen to Bob Dylan's Masters of War and mentally envision an amv feat. Theon and Catelyn.

[emblazons]

hi!

i read the tags you wrote about millie in a post yesterday (i think you deleted the post because i cant find it now) and i just wanted to say im glad theres someone who shares similar thoughts as me. i love millie but i cant even say anything on twitter without her toxic stans accusing me of misogyny and insulting her intelligence, even though thats not my intention.

if byler is canon, how do you think she’ll feel about it? im asking because your perspective is interesting! i think shes going to take it a bit personally because she strongly relates to her character and wants el to be on the same path as her (like getting married young). its understandable though, considering her upbringing.

!! I actually took it off my blog because the other day I resolved the issue of my tags not archiving—but when it got resolved, my blog ended up square in the middle as “top blogs” with the full mlvn name tag because I hadn’t been abbreviating their ship in the tag I used before ☠️ that said, I changed the tag to “anti mlvn” so I could keep myself out of mlvn corners, but a lot of the recent posts that I kept under the old tag are gone or private until tumblr tracks the change—hence the missing post!

Still...me and that tag rant was giving “why would you say something so controversial, yet so brave” for sure (lmao), though I certainly meant it less as a comment on her life decisions themselves and more a "I can tell by the decisions you make as a creator, producer of other films, and in general that you are not The Duffer Brother's target audience, but a lot of your fans can't" kind of way...which is still controversial in several corners of this fandom for sure. 😭

the rest of this answer under the cut because it got long lol

Like, yes, she does play a principal character in the show, but playing a character does not mean the character is modeled to you as a person—just look at Emilia Clarke playing Daenerys Targaryen, Anthony Hopkins playing Hannibal Lecter, or even Rachel McAdams playing Regina George lmao.

Despite playing El since she was a child, as Millie has come into adulthood it's become clearer that she is very different from El—and that The Duffers aren't creating Eleven's arc with Millie's own "coming of age" in mind. Her choices to create things like Enola Holmes, Damsel, and even Nineteen Steps (her new book) showing up as sharp contrasts to not only the women in Stranger Things, but in all of The Duffer's upcoming work on Death Note, The Talisman and The Boroughs prove that well enough, which would be zero problem at all...if a lot of her fans didn't conflate Millie with El is as a character.

To your point though...I honestly don't think Millie is going to be all that personally upset if El ends up single and Byler happens—she's already made clear that she loves El, but is ready to move on and tell other stories and that she would have written the story as a high school drama if she was in control of the direction of the plot (while pointing out that she's not the one in control of it) lol.

Even what she said recently in an widely published and official Seventeen interview shows that she's really just here to finish the story and move on with her career—that she's ready for her role as El (and the drama I'm 10000% sure comes with that) to be done:

At least to me, all of that makes it seem like she is a level-headed young woman who can handle her character not being aligned with how she would live her own life—and will, when the time comes.

That said: imo the real problem is that fans of MBB are confusing Millie's own "I can be young, strong and still have a man" creative and life choices with El's "I am overcoming the bounds men have put on me to become strong by myself" storyline, which only becomes an issue when Millie jokes about things like mlvn getting married—

—and (by nature of being an influential celebrity) ends up with fans who mistake Millie's headcanons (because...honestly that's what they are) based on what she enjoys in fiction as what The Duffers are writing & planning for the ending of Stranger Things.

Basically: as an actress, it's literally MBB's job to bring life to stories that don't necessarily reflect her own values or desires, and she knows it—but because she's been playing the character on people's screens so long (and from a young age) a lot of fans have issues separating the woman from the fiction and recognizing that (as Adam Driver once said) it's not Millie's job to have a feeling about or even agree with who El is as a person—it's her job to bring El & The Duffer's vision to life, even if her life informs how she plays the role.

None of that is particularly Millie's fault (though she, like Noah sometimes, adds fuel to fandom fire with the jokes she makes lmao), though it does get irritating to navigate when you're constantly subjected to arguments rooted in nothing but headcanons when trying to make sense of The Duffer's work itself lmao.

TL;DR - Mills joking about El and Mike getting married feels the same as someone here putting their headcanon out into the world about married & domestic Byler—only, because she's the face of Eleven + has now gotten engaged young herself, people misinterpret her own "cute headcanons" as canonical fact, leaving people who love the actual canon + who enjoy the 'style of womanhood' the Duffers write to arguing with people who misunderstand the actual characters.

Millie is a woman whose had a complicated relationship with celebrity and fame since she was a very young girl, and she has certainly made different decisions than I have (and likes different fiction than I do)—but that has nothing to do with her intelligence or ability to respond gracefully to the character she's played since 12 turning out differently than she would have imagined it if she had written El herself. If and when Byler happens, I'm sure she will meet the reality of it with respect and consideration, even if her fans (and hardcore fans of mlvn) don't lmao.

Hopefully that explains it (and doesn't get me shot for saying lmao). But thanks for the ask!

[navree]

Can you explain what you mean by a mix of dany and a self-insert oc? Because I don't really see any resemblance between daenerys and rhaenyra since their backstories are totally different. I'm a show watcher only, but I don't mind spoilers. So, can you tell me if this is a thing or not?

Sure no pb!

Thing is, you're actually bang on the money. Dany and Rhaenyra are very different characters, their connections are entirely superficial; they're both Targaryen female throne claimants, and Daenerys is a descendant of Rhaenyra through her second child by Daemon, Viserys (eventually Viserys II), but that's the only thing that they have in common. Dany as a character is entirely different from Rhaenyra, she has a much firmer and more developed sense of justice, she cares deeply for the common people and the plight of the marginalized than Rhaenyra ever does, and she intimately understands what it means to be disadvantaged on the subject of gender and class and sexuality that Rhaenyra, from her position of privilege that she has held her entire life, keenly lacks. Dany grew up impoverished and abused and was literally sold into slavery at thirteen years old; Rhaenyra grew up royal and coddled and in a much greater position of power throughout her childhood than Dany ever got. They're nothing alike, and their stories are entirley different, even in terms of how they approach leadership and rule (in F&B Rhaenyra's reign is shockingly bad because she's exceedingly brutal and turns the population of King's Landing against her, whereas Dany is a lot more cognizant of needing the people on her side, due to having taken her throne in Meereen by right of persuasion and conquest as opposed to Rhaenyra assuming the throne should be handed to her because her dad said so, and Dany is a much gentler ruler who actually denounces the torture Rhaenyra relies on throughout her half-year queenship).

The thing is, the crucial key thing to remember in all of this, is that fandom is a breeding ground for stupidity. Fandoms, especially these days, rarely allow for any sort of nuance or understanding of intricacies, and it therefore breeds people who have a tendency to run their mouths without knowing literally anything of what they're talking about. So a lot of people saw that Dany was a Targaryen woman who called herself queen, and Rhaenyra was a Targaryen woman who called herself queen, and just went "oh wow they're so similar1!111!!!!!!11" without actually examining these characters as, you know, characters. And they don't really want to, because they don't actually care about these characters, they care about being right. That's why so many Team Black stans have a tendency to start creating moral equivalencies between characters people enjoy and who they are in real life, which is why you get things like "if you like Aegon you support rapists" or "if you aren't on Rhaenyra's side while watching the show you're sexist" or the people who leave insane comments on the socials of Fabien or Olivia or Tom or Ewan based on the actions of their characters. Liking Rhaenyra as a character, for these people, is about proving that they're morally superior and in the objective "correct" position, so they aren't interested in Rhaenyra's flaws, or the intricacies of her personality, or the reality of her show situation, which is that she's not popular and has no reason to be popular. She needs to be chosen by God and the people, she needs to be Dany-lite because Dany was popular and everyone liked her and was the most iconic face of GOT/ASOIAF, so if Rhaenyra is Dany, Rhaenyra gets all that too through transference.

Even the show's aware that Dany and Rhaenyra are totally different, there's literally an entire episode dedicated to Rhaenyra being selfish and spoiled without thinking of the consequences both to other people and to herself. Rhaenyra even knows that she has flaws, there's a reason why in episode 8 she's the first one to toast to Alicent (beyond her love for her) and why that toast explicitly includes her saying that she is offering Alicent an apology. But again, this isn't about Rhaenyra as a character, or those who enjoy Rhaenyra as a character, it's people who act like fandom is real life and who are more interested in broadcasting purity and being obnoxious than engaging in a piece of fiction either with enjoyment or a critical eye. And it makes them draw incorrect observations that have no basis and then go from there, like acting as if Dany and Rhaenyra are similar and getting upset when people point out that they're not.

[khaleesiofthegreatdairystate]

you seem pretty cool, and I got hate for saying these things, but you don't seem hateful. You seem nice, so I just wanted to share my non hateful opinions/stuff I'm confused on and get your feedback

1. I am all for Daenerys taking back the iron throne, but I'm also a little confused cause Daenerys can't get have kids cause of the blood curse so Daenerys cant birth her heir/heirs so if she decides to have a heir/heirs who is she going to choose to be her heir/heirs but I kinda like the idea that if Daenerys gets the iron throne and after she dies, Drogon burns the throne (it took a dragons fire to make it and it'll take a dragons fire to melt it) and then westreos goes back to how it was before Aegon the Conqueror or the kingdoms vote who they want as a king/queen since they've been under one ruler for so long

2. I get why people don't talk bad about rhaeger but I also don't understand why no one talks bad about Rhaegar to Daenerys and tells her what Rhaegar did, cause him kidnapping lyanna is the reason why Robert decided to rebel in the first place with the help of some of the other kingdoms (who were tired of the targaryens which I honestly understand)

Well, I'm a highly pragmatic person who isn't quick to anger, especially from strangers online. You can ask me anything and I'll answer the best of my ability without being an ass about it.

Many fans have guessed that Daenerys is not actually barren or will not be barren for the whole series. You can do some googling to find people's opinions on all of that. Here's a reddit thread of people talking about it: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/15dy6b5/is_daenerys_barren_spoilers_extended/?rdt=38014. There's also a lot of essays here on tumblr.

The fact that a monarchy is a really flawed system of government isn't a new idea. Just because someone was born into the job doesn't mean that they'll be any good at it. English history is full of horrible kings. Richard II was deposed for a reason, for example. No one studies Henry VIII because he was a good person who did wonderful things for his people. Especially because he had his armies slaughter a bunch of them. King John is the archetypal "bad" king. So yeah, monarchies suck.

I'm not sure each kingdom governing itself would be all that much better. I can understand why people would think it would but you still have a monarchy, leaving the smallfolk and lesser lords, for that matter, to be at the whims of a person who is stupid, cruel, or both. I think it would be great if Daenerys developed some version of parliament where people can be represented and also voice their concerns to the ruler and the Small Council in an official way.

Will that happen? Stay tuned.

A lot of people hate Rhaegar, actually. I mean, I do. How he treated Elia and their children is pretty unforgivable. I mean he just didn't fucking care or at least he acted that way. People who are fans of Daenerys are not Ride or Die to all the Targaryens. While Rhaegar's actions might be explainable, as in he did it for prophecy, that doesn't make them forgivable. Also Lyanna was not even 16 when he knocked her up and left her to be looked after no one but guards in Dorne. Stabler and Benson would have been all over that situation :).

You can ask any questions you want.

[cosmics-beings]

Thank you for bringing that up because I am not a black person but the choice of making Megatron a slave and the way the fandom reacted to it in succession always made me really uncomfortable. Frankly, I found it ridiculous that to make an "interesting" narrative for Megatron, it relied heavily on using the trauma of BIPOC people in an unsatisfactory manner because it wasn't FOR them. Their narratives and their history were simply just transferred onto Megatron without much thought of the connotations

The fandom's tendency to favour/popularize something and make "continuity soup" (mix the lore, facts and characterizations), proceeding to enforce them onto other continuities also contributes heavily to this because it affects the view of other iterations. I enjoy Megatron as a character because I think he has a lot of untapped potential, but I cannot engage in almost any fan content of him because I heavily disagree with some of his portrayals and how his fans view him; and it ties back to his portrayal as a slave

Though iterations do not ultimately have a direct impact on each other (unless multiversal travel is involved), there's still a narrative that extends to all versions of a character. It's why people can react so negatively to one portrayal of a character, I don't like IDW1 Optimus Prime nor am I interested in analysing his "complexity." Optimus started off as a lower class character and he is slowly getting more privileged which I don't like, that's me enforcing my preference for G1 onto other continuities; I personally find it odd that Optimus "must" be given a position of power as a spokesperson but they choose to take away the fact that his original characterization had him as a marginalized person...

I like Earthspark Megatron and I think his characterization is handled better than TFP Megatron, whose character flaws I cannot differentiate on whether they're intentional or subpar writing... But there are still elements of Earthspark Megatron that makes me slightly wary due to the context of his slavery history in other continuities; despite the fact that his backstory in Earthspark is unconfirmed

TW discussions about slavery and abuse (for both megatron and starscream), some IDW and ES critical opinions as well.

This has been sitting in my ask for some time now, but I really REALLY agree. I’ve wanted to answer this for weeks and I’ve just been finding a way to do so. I’m gonna break this down and answer /agree with this the best I can.

Coming from someone with recent, traceable ancestry, and whose whole existence is because of slavery, I agree. And I think there needs to be HONEST discussion about why a lot of writers, who aren’t black or who aren’t familiar with slavery or don’t have ancestry tied to it, think that making someone a slave is an interesting narrative device, if they're just going to make them an abuser, a genocidal tyrant, etc., at the end. Because at that point, the narrative is just, shaming an abuse victim. Especially, in the case of Megatron, where it is not handled right and not everyone actually has the nuance to understand that or how problematic it is. The thing is that I actually like IDW Megatron, he is my favorite one. And next to him, is actually Earthspark Megatron.

My opinion however, is that we don’t really need anymore narratives where slaves rise against their oppressors and abusers, and become oppressors and abusers themselves. This isn’t just an issue with Megatron, but we also see it with characters in other popular media like…Hama and Jet, from Avatar or even Daenerys from Game of Thrones (and I use her loosely because while she was a slave turned into a dictator, her narrative also relied heavily on white saviorism. But that isn’t for here or there). Why is it needed? What does that tell victims and survivors of these things?

Another issue is that Megatron, despite how evil he IS, isn’t really ever painted as a victim before all of this. We've got his origin in IDW and a few more chapters in the LL, but we don't really get to see just how gritty it is. His narrative of slavery and abuse, because Megatron is an abuse victim is not actually highlighted in a way it should be imo, and the readers are mostly left to either have a vague idea of what he went through, or not understand how brutal it is. And slavery.is.brutal. it is one of the most violent and dehumanizing forms of abuse. And for the writers to not portray that shows it was something they didn’t really research or explain. And I will also come back to this later.

That narrative of an oppressed person, turning into an oppressor imo just perpetrates harmful ideas. And it takes real life issues, like slavery, colonization, violence, abuse, and ends up shaming the victims for their uprising. We don’t really need the whole “even someone who is hurt and tries to do better, can also hurt people. And they can be as bad as their oppressors” if it’s not written well, and if it’s not really adding anything positive to the struggle it’s trying to portray.

IDW Megatron ended up right where he started, but IMO worse. Yes, he got a family on the Lost Light, but the Lost Light was a prison sentence, with the understanding that he’d eventually be executed, or worse. He was still, by definition at the mercy of a prime when working with Rodimus, and even by extension Optimus. He still, at the end of his life had no power, agency or true autonomy. There was no way he, as a surrendered Decepticon, could have such privilege when he was aboard the Lost Light.

So while the Lost Light offers us a light hearted and even gut wrenching conclusion to Megatron’s story, it still rubs me the wrong way. He is still a slave, who the narrative decided to turn into a monster and abuser, and at the end of the day, he gets executed. That is just not comforting to me in the slightest.

I personally thought that ES would remedy that a bit, and it seemed to do so. The trope of slave turned into genocidal warlord, still existed but not only did we get to see him changing and redeeming himself, but we also got to see him making up to people he’d hurt. And his narrative, at least, from what we know, didn’t end in death.

But there are still aspects of ES that I don’t like, and with the recent Starscream episode, it’s confirmed that Megatron was still an abusive person (and lemme make it clear that i am HAPPY that starscream's abuse was finally taken seriously and not made a joke, but I still have critiques about how Megatrons' writing was handled, and those two opinions can co-exist T-T).

And this is where fandom in itself has kinda caused me to nope out because we have fans, wrt to both Megatron and Starscream not understanding the concept of a flawed victim and not really letting victims of abuse take accountability for what they’ve done wrong.

I’m seeing a lot of people saying they don’t like Megatron because of what he did…and saying that he is an abuser and that he deserves to be killed or that, he shouldn’t be redeemed in the show. Likewise, I see tons of people saying that it’s unfair to blame Starscream for how he hurt people, because it was a side affect of Megatron’s abuse, and therefore, he is blameless.

Remember earlier in this ask, I mentioned how Megatron’s own slavery and abuse wasn’t highlighted enough because the writers didn’t care? Well that’s what that is. And this is what I mean by fandoms cannot handle a flawed victim of abuse. Megatron is ALSO a victim of abuse, and his abuse is a reason he treated Starscream the way he did. This isn’t to take away from how Megatron treated Starscream at all, because I’ve talked enough on this blog about how he needs to be held accountable, to the point of being blocked and harassed. Megatron treated Starscream like absolute garbage and essentially made him a punching back in IDW and it SEEMS ES. That is something that shouldn't be igored and Megatron needs to be held accountable.

But my point is that if you are saying that Starscream shouldn’t be held accountable for his treatment of others (which is abusive!!) because of how Megatron treated him, then you’re also agreeing that Megatron cannot be held accountable for how he treated Starscream! Because Megatron's abusers caused him to abuse Starscream.

And that is bullshit.  And that is what I mean that fan spaces a.) don’t know that victism can be flawed and b.) the writers again, don’t have the emotional capacity or empathy to portray a victim of slavery as a survivor/traumatized person in an impactful and meaningful way.

Point a.) affects Starscream and Megatron. Because Megatron is seen as doing bad things, because the narrative again, doesn’t know how to write slave narratives. And because Megatron is bad and does bad things, this idea that he also a victim of abuse and that impacts how he treats other is not focused on at all. Likewise, Starscream is also abusive himself despite being a victim, because of shit that happened to him both because of Megatron and other things. But because fandoms don’t think abuse victims can be flawed and cause harm, a lot of fans do not actually allow Starscream to be flawed. A lot of fans attempt to act like he shouldn't be held accountable for the abuse he perpetrated and that's not true. Because that also doesn't allow him to grow and heal. Healing isn't always pretty and sometimes, it takes accountability but it's still healing.

Point b.) is the most important point because this ties back to the current conflict with both Earthspark and IDW Megatron. And that is the writers not having nuance or understanding to write a slave narrative where a revolutionary becomes corrupted. Because…at the end of the day, those narratives don’t need to exist. As an abuse victim, as a starscream fan, as a megatron fan, and as a Black person living in the South, I just do not think Megatron’s narrative in IDW AND Earthspark is given any sort of justice of nuance. And by the way a vast chunk of the ES Fandom acted, understandably, it just makes me angrier at the writers. And I would think, that for a show like Earthspark, that prioritizes Black people, and Black narratives, then a story such as slavery would be given proper care and nuance.

But that’s also an issue…the Black characters in ES aren’t written well, at all. They aren’t even characters, they are concepts and used as plot devices and are at large forgotten by the fandom. Which is disrespectful but we have writers that don’t actually understand the characters and narratives they are writing, again.

And we see it with Megatron for sure. I thought that ES would do better by him, but it didn’t, and the fandom discourse and lack of nuance and understanding SHOWS me that. Am I happy he’s getting redeemed – yes I am. Show wise. But what im not happy about is that, they have once again, chosen to go a slavery route (at least that is HEAVILY implied), but haven’t done enough to show or offer any type of empathy or actual, deep discussion about how that form of abuse deserves actual nuance. Even if we do see a redemption, it’s still not enough, especially if the writers—who write him wishy washy anyway—aren’t going to go all out and explain exactly why he became a Decepticon and the horrors of slavery.

This also isn’t to excuse him! Because I know that’s where this was going. Because as much as I love him, I can’t act like what he did is excusable despite his oppression. He was a genocidal tyrant, he became what he hated, he –as a victim of abuse, decided to take that abuse and trauma out on someone else. This isn’t excusing his actions.

It is more so, me wishing that ES handled things better, by earlier writing rather than dropping bits and pieces of a harmful IDW narrative, and not expanding in it in such a way that offered the fandom discussion points or allowed us to have nuance. It seems that, if you don’t have a personal relationship with slavery and the abusive dynamic, then you just don’t understand how bad it is.

And that was finally, my issue with IDW. For all Megatron changed at the end, and got better, he was still ultimately shamed, by the writing, for not wanting to be a victim of abuse anymore. The Lost Light was a bandaid on a very large, and unhealing wound.

The writers took a victim of violent abuse and instead of giving him agency and a good resolution, they made him worse than his oppressors. They made the people that oppress him, at the end of the day, treat him like a dog.

And I AM talking about Optimus here, since you brought him up. And that should also be a dynamic spoken about more. Optimus coming from a place of privilege, and being the ‘good’ one, the one who puts Megatron in his place, the one appointed by the gods to quite literally force the slave, who has turned corrupted, back into a bondage is just…I love Optimus, but that was not good writing. That wasn’t good writing at all. And it again, showed the lack of concern, empathy or understanding for handling a narrative like slavery.

If at the end of the day, your mission was to make a cop, turned prime (another oppressive group), throw and control the life of a slave who had, in the process of his revolution, lost his way…then idk you didn’t need to be writing his narrative in the first place. Because you don’t understand how harmful it is and how it’s not needed.

I don’t think the slave, turned into tyrant/abuser is needed. Especially since Megatron is an abuse victim, and by making him an evil warlord, the writers ended up shaming/punishing him for his abuse. But if it IS to be done, it needs to be done right. And for the longest time, I thought ES was doing it right but chile…

These recent fandom discussions have told me otherwise.

Do nawt get me started on TFP Megatron because that is another 5 pages of negativity.

Anyway, thank you so much for understanding.

At the end of the DAY, I DO love IDW megs the most, and I also love ES megatron. Because I wanted to see him turn good and find redemption if that was the route they chose to go. But idw fumbled, badly..like really badly. And ES, kinda did so with the writing as well. I know it’s an unpopular opinion to critique ES writing so I’ll keep it to a minimum. But similar to how the black and Asian characters in ES are more concepts, not characters, the writing for Megatron (and some other legacy characters) is off…it just doesn’t make enough sense to me.

But thank you so much and I am sorry it took so long to ask. If you have any more questions then please, throw them my way <3.

alll i can say at this point is thanks for reading, and if u liked this consider following my twitter &lt;3

[samieree]

Born in Flames || Game of Thrones

OC x ?😏

-> Chapter IX "Astapor"

Chapter X ''Be careful''

She had already spent several days in Astapor, during which she came across Roran - the "dancing snake" man - several times. Each time he was very nice to her, exchanged a few words with her, asked about various things, including her family, whether she was staying in Astapor for a long time, where he could find her.

Despite being raised "under the wings" of Tywin Lannister, she seemed to find nothing suspicious in these questions. It was as if the only thing that mattered was the freedom to talk to whoever she wanted.

"Don't you think this man is a little suspicious?" ser Arthur asked her as they returned from the market. He would say even very suspicious, although Visenya didn't seem to share his opinion.

"Why?" she turned her gaze to him. "He's an ordinary man trying to earn a living."

"Anyone who is too curious is suspicious." he replied, shrugging his shoulders.

Visenya didn't seem to care much about these words, she pushed them to the back of her head and left them for later thought.

Later that day, she met with Daenerys for a serious talk. Her aunt wanted to share with her her plan to obtain the Unsullied without giving the dragon.

Besides, it was just the time for that, because when Visenya first heard about this idea, she was ready to think that her aunt had either gone crazy or was ready to sacrifice everything to acquire an army.

"You didn't really think I was going to give them the dragon in exchange for the Unsullied, did you?" Dany asked as Vis gently stroked Maelia and Rhaegal, who laid down on her lap. There was a note of amusement in Dany's voice, which intensified when she saw Visenya's expression. "You thought so?"

"There were a lot of crazy ideas in this family, so this one would not surprise me." she replied, smiling gently back. "So... Kraznys will finally realize that we actually understand everything he says to us and what he calls us?"

Both women giggled just imagining Kraznys' expression.

In this situation, Vis found it hard to believe Roran's words about Daenerys - she was too proud to talk to ordinary people? Impossible, she absolutely had no such impression.

"And then?" Vis asked when they finally stopped laughing.

"If they decide to follow me as free men, we all will leave the city. We will go somewhere further, the closest is Yunkai." she explained, standing next to her niece and petting Rhaegal and Maelia, with an extremely gentle expression on her face. "And later I will take the Iron Throne." as she said this, she looked at her with a spark in her eyes, but there was no anger or threat in them, more... Determination.

She removed her hand and went somewhere to pour herself some wine, leaving Visenya alone.

You will take the Iron Throne? But on the other hand... Would Visenya like to be at war, make decisions? Watch its cruelty, give orders to people and sentence them to death?

But... If she doesn't do this, if she doesn't pull herself together and believe in herself, then Selaria's death will, in a sense, be in vain... Everything she taught her, when she taught her the history of her family in the evenings by candlelight, not only the downfalls but also the times of glory, how she kept telling her that she was the Princess of the Seven Kingdoms, its heir...

Was she going to throw it all away now because her aunt said so? She hasn't even said a word to let her know that she intends to argue with her about who should sit on the throne, so maybe it's time to speak up? Before it's too late...

But what is he going to do? She will say she doesn't agree and what next? I'll command to kill her? No...

She couldn't afford to lose of her last family. Moreover, looking at her face, she almost found a reflection of her own in it.

She spent the whole day thinking about it until she went out to freshen up again. These walks were never helped by the sight of the Walk of Punishments. She didn't want to look at those tortured, bloody faces and bodies, but her eyes involuntarily clung to these horrors.

"What have they doone to end up here...?" she asked quietly, closing her eyes slightly as the setting sun began to dazzle her. "Or no, don't tell me." she added quickly, seeing that Ser Arthur was ready to answer her question. "I don't want to know..."

"Is something troubling you, Your Grace?" she didn't answer this question.

He sighed heavily, but quietly so that she wouldn't notice. She had a soft heart, he could see it, even when she looked at those punished slaves. He wasn't afraid that this soft heart would one day destroy her, he was more afraid of... That the world would destroy it, destroy her. The world, which is full of cruelties, can destroy this good-natured girl and no one will ever see her kind eyes and delicate smile again.

It was a bit surprising that she could be extremely sad and concerned, and at the same time have a generous attitude towards the people around her. She didn't seem to have any suspicions until she saw something with her own eyes that would erase the image of someone in her eyes for good.

At the same time, he admired her ability to perceive the world this way and considered it a flaw. Well, maybe he was the one doomed to think about the dangers in this relation?

Rhaegar was similar, except he had a tendency to be reckless...

It was easy to get lost in the crowd at the Slave Market, even at the hour when the city was slowly going to sleep. Find somebody? Ha, almost impossible. That's why she almost jumped when she heard the sound of the blade being slowly removed.

"I won't hurt her, I'm just playing the flute! What can I do, throw it at her?" her heart didn't calm down at all at the sound of the familiar voice, not when she saw that her knight recognized the man approaching from behind as a possible threat and kept his hand clenched on the hilt of his sword.

"Nothing happened." she assured, looking significantly at ser Arthur, who moved slightly aside, although he was still very distrustful of the Queen's "friend". "You better not sneak up on me like that. What are you doing here anyway, Roran?"

"I was looking for you, my Lady." he seemed frantic as he approached her. "If you want to stop the carnage, you must... We must act quickly." he said to her in a whisper, looking into her eyes. He looked very worried or stressed about some situation, but he wasn't afraid to get so close to her at all.

"What are you talking about? What carnage?" if it weren't for his attitude, she would probably have laughed at that moment. She didn't know yet what could have happened to cause him to be in such a state, but she was starting to get nervous.

"If you don't stop Daenerys, a lot of blood will flow down the sidewalks of Astapor." he leaned closer to her ear. "I will do it for you. The crown will be yours." he whispered.

~

-> Chapter XI "Why?" -> general masterlist -> Game of Thrones/House of the Dragon masterlist

[finitefall]

I’ve never understood why people believe that Griff will be more accepted in Westeros than Dany, because they also say that Targaryen’s are hated in Westeros and won’t be welcomed (untrue), but they conveniently forget that when it comes to Griff, who is only doing what he’s doing because of his supposed Targaryen heritage, he’s trying to reclaim Westeros as Rhaegar Targaryen’s son and no one else, not to mention that I highly doubt people who still support Targaryen’s in Westeros (which is a lot more than this fandom is willing to accept) are going to believe Rhaegar’s dead son, survived the sack of KL during the Rebellion, in comparison to Daenerys, who is known as Rhaegar’s sister in Westeros and an undisputable Targaryen (unlike Griff) would receive a far better welcoming than Griff. Not saying it isn’t possible for him to still have supporters in Westeros and Dany won’t have those against her, both are likely. But, just the hypocritical mindset that Griff will be more welcomed as a Targaryen and not Daenerys, when Griff even needs her desperately for his plan to work and so much more about this mindset with Griff that doesn’t make a lick of sense to me when it comes to certain ASOIAF people (although they are probs GOT watchers who believe the show at the same time)... This fandom is so dumb it’s actual hell

I think it's more that those antis Dany want him to be accepted, nonnie. It’s not about logic, and what they’re saying not making any sense to you is a very good sign. Literally, who cares about Young Griff and finds his character amazing? Yet, there are actually people writing posts about how he would be a good King. Let's be honest: they don't like Young Griff, this isn't about him at all. It's about Dany and the fact they hate her. It's about them not wanting her to be Queen, least of all a good Queen. And it's also about misogyny, let's face it.

Those are the same people saying Dany is arrogant (she's not, but Young Griff is) and listing all her flaws when you just have to read both her chapters and his chapters to know who would be a good Queen and who would be a bad King. They also say that he has experience she doesn't since he was trained to be King all his life, which isn't true. He's been raised to be King, he has allies to support his (false) claim, but he never had to rule people. He literally has no idea what being King implies and doesn't understand the people, unlike Dany who wasn't raised to be Queen at all.

It's actually an important message: none of the five key players had been raised to be a leader (far from it), they're outcasts, and they're the ones who have shown the best leadership traits. GRRM isn't without flaws and his books aren't either, but when it comes to this? He knows absolutely what he's doing. The qualities a good ruler should have that are attributed to Young Griff are the ones Dany have been showing through the books.

There’s also another reason why they support Young Griff and want him to be the son of Rhaegar and Elia: their hate towards almost all Targaryens, who are white supremacists (all Dany stans and Targaryens stans are also racists, by the way) because they’re white and blonde and BIPOC characters suffered and died because of them. Elia Martell? Rhaegar’s fault. Quentyn Martell? Dany’s fault. Dorne has suffered so much because of House Targaryen, and Young Griff will show the people of Westeros how kind he is and will honor his mother’s memory, while his supporters will tell everyone the horrors Daenerys commited and how much she doesn’t care about the people. So, when Dany will come and see how the people love him and hate her, she’ll burn KL like in the show because she’s mad and a tyrant.

So again, it’s not about Young Griff. In fact, they don’t care if he’s a Targaryen or if he’s a Blackfyre. It’s about Dany. Her haters have to rewrite canon and go as far as defend slavery to be able to say she’s an awful ruler, a colonizer, a tyrant, a mad woman (emphasis on woman, please)... Her Satanic Majesty, like in the script of the show’s finale, basically. I wasn’t in the ASOIAF fandom before the show aired (I started to read the books after watching the first season, in 2013 I think), but it’s not new. The show did make things worse though: for them, it confirmed their smart theories and how delusional Dany stans are.

Yes, this fandom can be extremely stupid and toxic.

[agentrouka-blog]

I know you are not the creator of the post, but i wanted to add that if D@ny cared about the unsullied she would'nt have use them for the conquest campaign, it is simply logical. If you cared about those traumatized-people-from childhood you would teach about freedom, integrate them into society, help them recover the sense of self and agency. I think is un-ethical letting someone die for you and your beliefs when they don't understand their freedom completely! You should insist about that they should form a life different form what they had, not welcome them with open arms (i know it sound bad but i dont find a better of put it in).

It was never about freeing them. It was about removing them from the ownership of the slavers at Astapor. Without paying for them. If it was about setting them free, yes, she would have wanted them to be free on their own terms. But as it turns out, for Dany freedom means serving Dany.

I mean, GRRM didn't write this for funsies (even if it's hilariously on the nose):

There were no slaves in the Iron Islands, only thralls. A thrall was bound to service, but he was not chattel. His children were born free, so long as they were given to the Drowned God. And thralls were never bought nor sold for gold. A man paid the iron price for thralls, or else had none. "They should be thralls, or salt wives," Victarion complained. (AFFC, The Reaver)

A slave by any other name... and she certainly paid a big iron price for them - conveniently by letting them pay it for her.

Afterward he put their crews to death as well, saving only the slaves chained to the oars. He broke their chains himself and told them they were now free men and would have the privilege of rowing for the Iron Fleet, an honor that every boy in the Iron Islands dreamed of growing up. "The dragon queen frees slaves and so do I," he proclaimed. (ADWD, Victarion I)

Free men rowing on. So free.

It's incredibly telling that the first look back at what she did after her massacre went underway is to command.

When she had commanded the Unsullied to choose officers from amongst themselves, Grey Worm had been their overwhelming choice for the highest rank. (ASOS, Daenerys IV)

Also:

One of the first things Dany had done after the fall of Astapor was abolish the custom of giving the Unsullied new slave names every day. Most of those born free had returned to their birth names; those who still remembered them, at least.

How do you abolish a custom unless you are somehow unquestionably in charge?

How many Unsullied remember what freedom even is? There is absolutely no mention of them choosing to follow Dany over something else. Not for the Unsullied, who are the ones she had wanted to buy .

Also, even more tellingly, she makes a clear and constant distinction between the Unsullied and "her freedmen", who are not useful in battle.

I told them they were free. I cannot tell them now they are not free to join me. She gazed at the smoke rising from their cookfires and swallowed a sigh. She might have the best footsoldiers in the world, but she also had the worst.

ALL of them as considered her soldiers. Even the civilians. What choice were the Unsullied actually offered?

She bought them. She commanded them to kill. She dropped the whip. And she kept commanding.

She calls them free. They call themselves free. But they were never given a choice to do anything else, and they are not "freedmen" to her.

They are not, fact, free.

These provisions remain the law in Pentos to this day though certain observers have noted that many Pentoshi ships evade the prohibition against the slave trade by running Lysene or Myrish banners up their masts when challenged, whilst in the city itself there are tens of thousands of "free bond servants" who seem to be slaves in all but name, for they are collared and branded much like their counterparts in Lys, Myr, and Tyrosh, and subject to similar savage disciplines. In law, these bond servants are free men and women, with the right to refuse service as they will...provided they are not in debt to their masters. (The World of Ice and Fire - The Free Cities: Pentos)

Which Dany herself should really be aware of unless she doesn't want to be:

They were slaves, a gift from one of the magister's many Dothraki friends. There was no slavery in the free city of Pentos. Nonetheless, they were slaves. (AGOT, Daenerys I)

How free are the Unsullied to refuse? Or does Dany consider them indebted to her?

Will we find out?

[dragongutsixofficial]

I noticed that some of the people that are Edelgard critical are also the types that usually stan evil pretty boys.

Hey anon ! Thanks for your insight ! ^^

 I think I should begin by telling you what happened just after I read your ask. I was wondering how I could make an articulate answer (because I’m a mess), and so I decided to seek the perspective of my dearest mutual @ninadove, who I knew would have something interesting to say on the matter. You see, apart from being a massive Edelgard fan, she also has a 10+ year brainrot on a evil pretty guy from the Professor Layton saga: Clive Dove.

(Don't worry, I know the legend is pretty confusing.)

What are this bad but sad boy's crimes, might you ask ? Here's a list :

identity theft

heavy manipulation

Building an entire replica of London ten years in the future right under the city without a permit

Kidnapping people to populate his fake town as well as scientists

Using said scientists to build a death machine to eventually destroy the entirety of London

Pretty heavy stuff, right ? So, I screenshot your ask and sent it to her because I knew she in particular would have interesting stuff to say on the matter. And she did !

But the thing is, she read it sideways at first and misunderstood. She thought that your observation was that a lot of people who liked Edelgard also enjoyed evil pretty boys. And she told me, “it makes total sense”, and started explaining why. I’m summing up the gist of her reasoning here. Don't worry, this is relevant to answering your ask:

There is a phenomenon of constant demonization of antagonists, especially pretty male antagonists -evil pretty guys if you will. This is interesting when you realize that that kind of character is often tailored to speak to a younger audience, and especially to appeal to young girls. Those fangirls are, in turn, often shamed for taking an interest in characters which are deemed unredeemable. However, liking said characters isn’t bad in itself.

Indeed, the real problem arises if said fans of a character are willing to excuse their objectively bad actions because the evil pretty boy is, well, pretty. But that isn’t the case in the vast majority of cases. Most of them actually appreciate the complexity of the character they root for. Would @ninadove condone someone trying to commit a mass murder irl? No. Does she understand that Clive had damn good reasons for turning evil in the first place (his parents and most people in his apartment building were killed in an immoral scientific experiment which only took place due to a considerable amount of corruption, so he feels the need to “purge” the city of it), and that the situation is not black and white? Yeah, absolutely ! Clive isn’t the Devil Incarnate; but just as with Edelgard’s, some aspects of an evil pretty boy’s narrative might talk to people more, depending on where they’re at in life.

According to her, the fact that so many people who were already attracted to evil pretty boys were also attracted to Edelgard's character is a testament to the fact that it isn't just because they're hot guys that they're so popular, but because of the themes in their story, the moral dilemmas their actions lead the audience to, and the potential said audience sees in them. The very fact that she misunderstood your ask in the first place is proof of that- it's just the logic continuation of liking a given type of character.

Now, this isn't to say that some people don't act towards Edelgard the way they did towards Daenerys- but that as a general rule, one can't extrapolate what a person's values are irl  based on their personal fictional likes. A ton of people who stan a pretty evil boy will stan a pretty evil girl for the exact same reasons.

In the same way, the bullet points just above list a few of the criticisms fans of evil pretty boys are subjected to:

 that rooting for a fictional antagonist means that the fans would be willing to justify the same kind of crimes if they took place in the real world.

that the only reason they like the character is because they're only attracted to their physical appearance

that there is only one way to read and enjoy a fictional work and going against it is wrong, thus you should feel ashamed/are a bad person if you see it any different. If your blorbo is an antagonist then you should only view them as a villain.

Do you recognize any of these lines ? Yup. They're usually the ones hardcore Edelgard criticals use when talking about her fans.

So, what can we conclude from this ?

In truth, the problem isn’t with liking or disliking a character in itself. People will always enjoy different things -and that’s what’s so fun about fandom culture! In the same way, people are allowed to criticize any given character and call them out on their actions. I’ve seen some very eye-opening posts from some Edelcrits who helped me understand why so many people feel uneasy about Edelgard, and actually made me think even more about what her motivations are and who she is at her core, making her all the more interesting to me. I might disagree with some takes, yes, but I don’t have anything against them as long as they are said respectfully.

To me, at the very least, the real issue is when people cross the line to reality, and start making assumptions about other fans based on fiction. Most of the time, one’s blorbos aren’t a viable way of determining what kind of person they are. For instance: I have seen a lot of people criticize Edelgard’s imperialism and explain that it makes their skin crawls. I love Edelgard and I admire her character arc in CF, as well as her iron resolve to do whatever it takes to achieve her goals. Does that mean I condone imperialism in the real world, especially the modern forms of imperialism? Heck no. No way in hell would I ever support that kind of thing.

You never have a right to bully other people into thinking like you, however misguided you think they are, be you an Edelgard or a Dimitri stan. I once made a post about this exact issue, calling out people who claimed liking Rhea (who I personally kinda dislike) made you an abuse apologist.

Reciprocally, that means no one should have to feel bad about liking a fictional character if that brings them joy. I know liking Edelgard made me a better, more accepting person, and she keeps inspiring me to speak up for myself and others. We should fight against that trend that consists in shaming fans of certain characters. They really do make you better, as @ninadove pointed out herself just how much liking Clive Dove did for her.

All in all, what I mean is that we should all just try to be respectful and mindful of other fans. There is rarely such a thing as manicheism when it comes to antagonists like Edelgard and Clive, and we must always be careful about who we apply that kind of black-and-white logic to.

So, yeah ! I hope that clears up my perspective of things at least.^^ Thanks for sharing!!!

Edit: fixed Clive's picture cause it was incredibly blurry and honestly sad

Second edit: fixed some typos and also added Catra because damn girl

[sweetestpopcorn]

What is your opinion on Daenerys and drogo? Many people romanticise it a little too much.

Hi there Anon!

I am inclined to say one of those people might be George 😂 either that or he fooled me well - he might have though to be honest, I am not a very insightful person. And I am not trying to be funny here, I might really be missing stuff because I am sort of dumb/slow sometimes.

I don't think he would have two people call each other "Moon of my Life" and "My Sun and Stars" if he wasn't trying to be romantic. Did he achieve this though? In my opinion no, and actually one of the things I would say *&* did better than George was how they wrote Dany and Drogo's wedding night, because in the books it felt like something not even a 12 year old on Wattpad would write.

Let's break it down. So Dany starts as being scared sh:t, finds Drogo terrifying, has 0 sexual experience, yet he gives her a massage and all of a sudden she's h0rny as f:ck and wants to bang on the spot? Going as far as putting his 👆 on her 🐈?

That scene in a nutshell: Tell me you don't understand anything about women or female sexuality without telling me you... you know where I am going with this. All that was missing for the perfect fanfiction s£x scene would be him entering her in a super painful way *blood and gore everywhere*, she cries in pain, and her still having a gazillion orgasms from 🍆 in 🐈 alone.

Not my first rodeo, George. Been reading fanfiction since I was *not saying*. And for someone who hates fanfiction that scene was like *sigh* fit for any DarkCharater fic I ever read. Not good. Not good.

On a side note during my years loving Twilight I read a lot of DarkEdward fics 😂😂 y'all can mock me for this, I mock myself.

Having seen the show (first two seasons) before reading the first book, I must say I quite preferred their relationship in there, or at least it made more sense because they went from bad to... I don't want to say good but better? In the books it makes no sense.

So Dany is terrified and doesn't want to marry him. Then he gives her the massage of a lifetime - I would pay to know what kind of f_cking massage that was - and she wants some hanky panky and they do IT. And then after seeking some sort of consent (?) from her, Drogo starts to not need it anymore and it's just r@pe fest :D 24/7 with Dany crying out in pain and wanting to kill herself. Then, after in a way being betrayed (?) by Drogo, who goes from seeking some sort of consent (?) to not caring and just f_ck her raw, she decided she wants to please him? Why?

This all to say I didn't find their relationship the least bit convincing. Not from Dany's part. Not from Drogo's part. In the show I found it more convincing because there's at least a logical sequence of events - that very likely lead to some sort of Stockhold Syndrome from Dany - and I think it's undeniable how much chemistry Emilia and Jason had together.

In either case, is their relationship deeply problematic? It is. Do I think George sees the full extent of how problematic it is? No, I don't. Do I think in the books Daenerys will ever have some sort of epiphany about how it was not true love between her and Drogo? Absolutely not. Just look at ALL the other couples George has made, even outside the main asoiaf books, and the types of deeply problematic relationships that are presented as true love. Yeah... not gonna happen - in my opinion at least, which is worth what it is, and if opinions were that good they would be sold not given so #there XD

I will show myself out X'D

Also in the asoiaf universe, I don't think we really are in much of a position to point the finger at problematic relationships given that IDK 99% of them are problematic in some way or the other. It's almost just a pick and choose game of what bothers people less and what they can work with.

I totally get not understanding why people like X couple, and yes I have my list of couples I don't understand why anyone likes and ships, but at the end of the day it's fiction. Ship and let ship. Focus on what you like and leave others be.

We don't have to like or understand others but we don't have a right to bother them. And this isn't targeted at you, Anon, don't think that it is please. I am just speaking in general and I do hope every one of you does this. It's one thing to rant with your friends in a private setting, quite another to call out people publicly or try to shame them when this is a fandom for one of the most problematic book series ever. If you can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen, people. This ain't Disney.

All the best to you, Anon 🤗

[diazevans]

these hands had to let it go free (this love came back to me)

In the end, the first council doesn’t last.

Tyrion Lannister is the third to go and no one is really surprised.

or

Tyrion and Sansa have a conversation about the past, that leads to beautiful things. 

part 2 of 3. { part 1 }

It's just his luck that he is in the North for the anniversary of the Long Night.

There is no feast, but something like that and Tyrion finds himself sit beside the Queen, seeing his men and her people mingle and drink for those who left then too soon, sharing stories that will preserve them forever. His eyes keep moving back to her, but Sansa seems far away, somewhere he can't reach no matter how many witty comments he makes to ease the tension on her shoulders.

Her cup of wine is untouched on her hand and he wants nothing more than put it aside so he can reach for her palm, to give her some comfort for whatever sorrow she is remembering. She has many too choose from, sadly.

Everyone starts to get potentially drunker and he tries his best to not drown himself in the wine; he wouldn't be able to ignore her pain even with all the alcohol in the world.

After a while and some speeches, Sansa excuses herself and tells everyone to keep enjoying the celebrations. Tyrion is about to leave too when, for the first time in the whole night, her piercing blue eyes land on him. Whatever he is about to say gets stuck in his throat as she looks him over, considering him.

"Come, Lord Tyrion. There is a matter we shall discuss" Her voice is all business and steadiness, something he is quite used to when they are in the presence of others, but that something that underlines all of their private interactions is also there, and he is left to do nothing but follow her without comment.

For a clever man, he has no idea what is happening. He is actually considering his options so hard that he doesn't realize he is following her to a part of the castle he has never in, until she opens a door and leads him to what clearly are her rooms. It sets him mind in blank, but Sansa takes no notice of this and walks right to the small table, pouring them both something to drink. Tyrion is still speechless and unmoving, something that makes her smile.

"I have never seen a lion wear that expression" Her voice brings him back and if he wasn't a grown ass man, he would had blush. He still does, a little bit and he wants to think that is the reason her eyes soften in the edges.

"Is not proper that I'm in your rooms, your Majesty" Sansa looks at him amused for a moment, before turning her back and drinking a sip of her glass.

"You are not the first one to be here" And that is enough to send his poor heart to an ultimate deceased. Of course she would had someone else, she is the most beautiful woman in the entire world and not only that, but a queen who could have anyone she desires. If he was stupid enough to be faithful to an invalid marriage, that was clearly on him. "Theon was here the night before the battle" Again, her words stop his quick mind and Tyrion doesn't miss the sadness in her voice. It was him who she was thinking about in the feast, then.

Theon had never being his favorite person, far from it, but he was grateful for him after Sansa told him about how they got free from Ramsey. He had done what Tyrion couldn't, protecting her, and no matter how many cruel jokes passed between, that could never be erased.

Sansa doesn't look at him and continues talking, her eyes again looking at something that is not there. "We came here after we ate something, to wait for the signal. All of my siblings had somewhere else to be and we didn't want to be alone." Tyrion moves closer as she speaks, sitting in a chair beside the table and taking his wine, letting her say whatever she has to say. It doesn't matter it may break his heart in the process, it never has. "We talked until it was time and we said our goodbyes. I'm glad at least we got to have that"

"I'm glad you did too" The sentiment is sincere but it's mixed with his own feelings. He also got to say goodbye to Jamie, even when it didn't make anything easier. Tyrion is aware that is not the same, there were different kinds of love, but the loss is still great in both of their hearts. He can relate to that. And because he is stupid and jealous, he can't help but keep talking. "He would had being a good king, beside you"

There is no surprise in her eyes when she turns to look at him, but the understanding that someone who has thought about it before and agree with him. Still, she doesn't comment on it. "I already had two husbands. I don't plan to choose another one?"

"Never? And be alone for the rest of your days?" The only thought makes him sad, for her.

"I never said that"

There is a pause, and for the Hand of the King, that lasts for a million years. He looks right into her eyes, those blue ice that seem so warm when they are on him, like right there and understands something impossible. She is waiting for him to catch up with what she has already decided and it takes all the air out of his lungs that her, Sansa of House Stark, has chosen him against anyone else. Because that's what she means, he can't be wrong, but it still feels like he is walking in some kind of dream.

"Sansa…"

"You said we should had stayed married and I told you it could never work because of a queen that is already gone"

"That doesn't mean that…"

"In all those letters, in all of your time in the North, have you not seen it? Have you not notice that I want you?" Her body is completely angled at him now and there is frustration on her tone, close to the girl he met in King's Landing. In front of him there is a Queen, but still the same Sansa he admired since he met her.

And this Sansa, present Sansa, wants him. It makes him want to cry.

He thinks there may be real tears on his cheeks because the next thing he knows, she is leaning closer to him, cradling his face in her hands and cleaning something with her thumbs. How can someone think of her as emotionless, when she is able to communicate him so much with one look? He doesn't deserve this, her, after everything that he had done. After he had betrayed Daenerys, after he had killed his father and Shae; Tyrion doesn't deserve the mercy that is Sansa's affection, but gods, he is so grateful right now. He would do it all again, as selfish as it sounds, to be with her like this again. In a hundred life times, he would still choose her.

"Silly man" A quiet giggle comes out of her mouth, enough for him to smile chuckle back at her. She is beautiful when she smiles and laughs, so much that is a crime not to kiss her, and so he does. This time, he is allowed to and when he moves forward, she meets him in the middle.

It's like fireworks, but so much more.

It's home and safety, it's new and it's old, it's liberating but so terrifying at the same time.

When they part, Tyrion has to hold himself to follow her mouth or kiss her again, once he sees her expression after being kissed. By him, out of anyone.

It was going to take a while to get used to.

"I…" It's the first time he sees her doubt herself and he puts his hands over hers, to steady her. "It may be hard. I don't… Ramsey…"

"I'll be patient. We will go slowly, with everything"

Her mouth almost forms a pout, almost. "Not so slowly. I have wait weeks for you to realize that…"

"I have made my Queen wait for weeks?! I'm sure that is cause of treason" The joke makes the pout disappears on her face and another laugh to come out of her lips.

It's just his luck the best day of his life happens in the anniversary of the Long Night.

[thelawyerthatwaspromised]

Hi, I find your arguments always interesting so I turn to you today. I believe in political!Jon. But what bothers me is the script' long sentences about his love for her. We don't see that on the screen. So, either Kit has bad to recreate those feelings (I don't believe it) and the whole team not noticed that, or there's a problem. There was no need to write all that if it wasn't to show it on the screen. Or it was so weird than some of the audience didn't understand it. What do you think? Thank

The thing that makes me not care about this recent PR push is what they put on screen. 

They can say whatever the hell they want about Jon and Dany being in lurve but they didn’t put it on the screen. 

And even the scripts have intentional contradictions (like Cersei being surprised and outraged about Euron’s betrayal only to later reveal in the same episode that Jaime was stupid for falling for it).

They’ve over-explained and under-shown the Joneryii moments and under explained and made the Jonsa moments visually very obvious. It’s a completely inverted disconnect to the point where it’s basically the show and the script not agreeing. 

An on the matter of the script…the show only reaches it’s final product from the intentional editing choices while the script is a much lesser indicator of what’s happening or what’s intended just by virtue of the fact that it goes script-shoot-edit so the final product is the manifestation of the intentions of the creators. While they are shooting scenes, the script is used to help the filmmakers and actors understand how they are supposed to frame the content for the audience. So the audience is supposed to believe that Cersei is surprised about Euron’s betrayal. The audience is supposed to believe that dark!Sansa might actually have Arya executed. The audience is supposed to believe that Jon is in love. What’s infinitely most important is what makes it to the screen.

And so many of the story telling choices are illogical for a Jon and Dany romance. So it’s not even that they would have half-assed Jonerys. It’s that they would have contradicted it so many times with no actual reason for these contradictions (if we actually were to believe that Jon and Dany is a love story).

Examples: Jon withholding personal information, Jon asking Dany to expose herself to more danger on the boat, Jon ignoring his fear of fathering a bastard, Dany pressuring Jon to bend the knee, Jon actually bending the knee contra the idea of equal partnership, Jon leaving the North to Sansa then unilaterally deciding to give it away, Dany only momentarily questioning that the NL’s will accept Jon’s decision (with Jon glossing it over???). I could go on and on and on with relationship dynamics that are downright toxic if you’re trying to craft a positive relationship.

And that’s ignoring that RLJ hasn’t been revealed and that a huge part of the season was the theme of Jon as the northern fool redux AND Kit outright saying that Jon is a kind manipulator in S7.

So again, all of this supposed to mean nothing? Because a Jonerys love story negates all of that. It really wouldn’t just be showing a poorly written romance, it would be that the writers intentionally sabotaged their own love story by inserting all of these plot elements - almost all specific to Jon behaving as a kind manipulator rather than a romantic fool.

The most damning part is that Jon went there with a specific political mission that he achieved totally and he gets what he needs and she has absolutely no chance of gaining anything materially from it AND THEN we are to believe that Jon risked accomplishing his mission because he can’t lie to Cersei Lannister.

So Jon achieved the mission so far as he thinks.

Did he do so on purpose or not?

Because without political!Jon, his behavior at the Dragonpit put the entire world at risk for absolutely no good reason and he have the North away when he’s not even the heir to Winterfell.

That doesn’t square. At all. And he wasn’t the one asking for Dany to take WF first, he resisted that the entire season until a very dramatic and desperate moment. She demanded it first. He refused it more than once. He believes he has to do it to get her to fight with him. He does it. The sequencing of events makes this a gigantic flashing red sign “YOU SHOULD BE PAYING ATTENTION TO THIS” - but I actually think D&D have done a good job glossing it over. The fact that Jon hasn’t addressed his plans with ANYONE and didn’t even give a reason to ANYONE why he bent the knee after not wanting to bend the knee means it’s going to be addressed at some point very soon.

There’s ONLY political!Jon or “Ill put this truce I believe can save the realm at risk for love”!Jon.There really isn’t a middle ground with that single decision.

The knee bending decision and the scroll to Sansa are the keys to everything. Everything about political!Jon 

So, no. I’m not worried. We knew that the PR would be Jonerys-heavy and it makes sense because the fracturing of that “relationship” makes Dany every bit a threat to the North that the NK represents. That’s not even disputable. Jon and Dany having a falling out when Jon is the heir to the Throne is tied for the most dangerous fucking thing to the North with the zombie army. Because we know Righteous!Dany. She can be vicious. She has large, terrifying monsters are her main weapons. She has a horde of pillaging conquerors. An angry and jaded Daenerys Targaryen is a terrifying prospect. Showing her character become increasingly infatuated and invested in a particular character who just-so-happens to be her biggest political competition once the truth of his birth is revealed is just a huge keg of gunpowder waiting to ignite.

[sheikah]

Hello! I have recently been exposed to a lot of jonerys. I don't have anything against it but I'm not sure how I feel. Could you convince me?

Hi there! So honored to have you here! What a great and exciting ask. Sorry for my delayed response but I wanted to be sure to do it justice haha. 

Alright so there are a lot of reasons to love Jonerys. I’ve talked before about why I think they will be compatible, and I’ll probably recycle that answer a bit because I have a bunch of new followers since then. But before I get sappy I want to talk about the realm as a whole. 

I think that Jon and Dany as a pairing is the best and healthiest outcome for the realm.

Jon Snow’s arc has been focused on the themes of equality and personal freedom. Starting in Winterfell we see that Jon was marginalized and did not receive equal treatment due to the circumstances of his birth. This molded him into an insular and bitter young man. 

When he first arrived at The Wall he behaved petulantly because he resented the feeling that he was deceived by Benjen and others when he discovered that the NW is not made of chivalrous men from noble houses, but commoners and many criminals. But befriending these men, starting with Sam, began Jon’s personal journey to help and uplift people who are looked down in society.

Of course his time with Ygritte and the other Free Folk contributed to this worldview and eventually as Lord Commander he made history by allowing them South of the Wall. So we know that as a leader Jon is someone who would value equality and freedom for all people which would help everyone to thrive. 

Meanwhile Daenerys was on a parallel journey. As an exiled young girl she had even less agency and autonomy than Jon did and was more or less sold into sexual slavery to Drogo. She saw how women were treated in that culture and how the poor, sick, and elderly were treated in a society that put so much value on physical strength. When her dragons were born she adopted the unwanted dothraki, the weakest among them, as her khalasar and protected them.  Her liberation of Slaver’s Bay parallels Jon’s liberation of the wildlings because like Jon, Dany knows what it’s like to be looked down on and sneered at. So instead of sailing for Westeros to fulfill her personal destiny when she had the chance, she stayed until Meereen was stable so that its people could live freely and equally and so that each and every person there could follow their personal destiny, too. 

So Dany and Jon come from similar backgrounds and have similar feelings about people and the world, and they both stand poised to rule. Jon has the loyalty of the North; Dany has the loyalty of the largest fighting force. 

If these two come together, not only can they save the realm from the WW (which is the most important thing of all) but they can also oppose rulers like Cersei and Euron who would only continue to let the realm wither under their oppression. 

But in addition to what they could do for the realm, think of what they could do for each other! Dany’s entire family was murdered and while she wasn’t around to feel the pain of most of their deaths, she still feels the pain of being alone without a family to take care of her. She also had to watch her brother, someone she loved in spite of his cruelty, die because he was such a threat to her and the life of her unborn child. Top this all off with the fact that in spite of Drogo raping her, she seems to have genuinely loved him over time and she had to end his life to put him out of his catatonic misery. Jon’s family was also murdered. He doesn’t know about Rhaegar and Lyanna, but like Dany, his father was murdered during Robert’s Rebellion and his mother died from childbirth. Ned was murdered, Robb was murdered, and like Dany having to witness the death of Viserys, Jon watched Rickon murdered right before his eyes. Finally, Just as Dany lost Drogo, Jon lost Ygritte and she died in his arms tragically. So they are both pretty much alone in the world. Together they are the last Targaryens, though neither of them knows about the other yet. Each of them doesn’t really have a home. I think it was telling in Sunday’s episode when Jon said that Sansa “is” the only Stark in Winterfell. He didn’t say, will be after he leaves. In other words, no matter how far he has come, no matter how welcoming and kind Sansa has been to him, Jon still believes that he is not a true Stark and still feels like a Snow–a bastard. 

Meanwhile, Dany’s homecoming in Dragonstone was not all she’d hoped it would be. She realizes that a piece of land and a castle do not equal a home. Because home is being with people you love. And Jon and Dany are going to be that for one another. I don’t think that either of them can find another person who will relate so well to everything they’ve been through. Because yes, there are other people who have suffered on the show. But Jon and Dany have both suffered and been left alone while also living as rulers. They both bear the burden and responsibility of the people who are loyal to them. For the first time they will find a person who actually understands what that is like.I think that’s going to be so beautiful. They can be truly happy together, even if that will be ruined by the war and violence and everything else.And while I know the incest freaks some people out, I’ve discussed why I don’t think it will be a problem here. But in addition to that, I was recently reminded that both Jonnel and Edric Stark married their neices, in addition to countless Targaryen intermarriages. I think the fact that Jon and Dany are both Targaryens matters. Because out of all the families, the Targaryens practiced this the most and it was by no means expected for incest to produce children who were physically or mentally affected by that. Aerys II does not represent all Targaryens or the supposed side effects of Targaryen incest. In fact, I believe that since Targaryens are the blood of Old Valyria, where intermarriage was also practiced, and since Valyrian blood is clearly magical (dragon taming, Dany’s invulnerability to fire, etc), we can’t really compare their unions to those of normal humans. And it’s possible that their magical blood actually makes them attracted to one another. It would help to explain how so many Targaryens practiced incest for so long. Even some of Aegon V’s children wed incestuously in secret despite his attempts to keep them apart. So I think that Targaryens possibly have a special bond with one another and that Jon and Dany might, too. I also talked about their overall compatibility this in response to a similar ask so there is some overlap but also some stuff I didn’t cover here if you’re still interested. I hope I helped to convince you some! Thanks for sending this and welcome to our fandom

[moonlitgleek]

Do you think Ned Stark was successful in anything? Your metas heavily emphasize his failures, faults, and shortcomings. Do you think there was anything he was good at other than being viewed as a good man and moral? I don't see many people acknowledging positive aspects of him-other than he loved his family and was relatively a 'good' person, but that seems to be done more to lighten the criticism of him. Why is he so beloved in the book if he was such a fuck up to his family and the North?

Um, should I not criticize him where criticism is due? Or when an issue he did not handle properly is being discussed? I criticize Ned but I do not denounce him. It’s not that I’m heavily emphasizing his faults but there are places where Ned erred, even if it was sympathetic or understandable in some occasions. I’m generally against considering only one aspect of Ned’s personality as an indication of who he is as a whole, be them his virtues or his faults. My analysis of his motivations or his actions in a certain event isn’t a blanket condemnation of the character or any attempt to argue that he is a fuck up or a bad person. Flawed, certainly, but not bad. Far from it actually. The text itself criticizes Ned  because he, like every other character GRRM writes, is not a saint. He is one of the good ones, but he is not an impeccable untouchable paragon of all that’s good and right. He stands out, certainly, since he is sometimes the only person to speak up against some truly vile things (like the fight with Robert over his condoning of Elia and her children’s murder, or the one over Robert’s command to assassinate a pregnant Daenerys, in which he was joined by Barristan Selmy) but, well, Mycah.

I can’t really speak for the entire fandom, neither do I know what tone the conversation around Ned usually takes, but for me, Ned’s merits and morals and successes are explicitly laid all over the text so I don’t usually feel the need to argue for them. This is the guy who is reputed for his honor across all of Westeros, who garnered the epithet of the honorable Ned Stark. Everyone, friend or foe, make a mention of his morals and honor. And it’s not that he is good at “being viewed” as moral, he genuinely is. Ned Stark is the last person who would perform morality or honor. We’re inside the man’s head, we see his thought process, this is his character and his moral code.

The narrative gives us two contrasting ideologies in Tywin Lannister’s and Ned Stark’s to serve as foils to each other, and then goes to bat for Ned’s. It’s a part of a larger body of stories that is meant to make a statement about the importance of upholding values and believing in ideals even when corrupt institutions and individuals ridicule and distort them, or even use them against you. A corrupt system can’t take your ideals away from you, no matter what. Ned’s story falls right in line with this message. His ideals win. His political theory wins. He wins. How can he, then, be considered a failure?

In-universe, it’s Ned’s legacy that has so many factions fighting for his children’s rights right now. Even Stannis, who does not like Ned and resents the hell out of him, expresses a lot of respect for him and admits to his value and morals. Throughout their stories, the Starklings encounter people who help, support and trust them right off the bat because they are Ned’s. Alys Karstark goes to Jon for protection because he is Ned Stark’s son. The mountain clans choose to die for “the Ned’s little girl”. Meera and Jojen Reed pledge heart and hearth and harvest and swords to Winterfell. The support Jon and Robb gain at the very start is in no small part due to them being Ned’s. This isn’t solely about the Stark name, this is specifically about the character of Eddard Stark and the way he ruled the North. You simply don’t inspire that level of loyalty and love if you’re a failure.

It’s true the Starks are revered in the North for protecting their people and being just plain generous (e.g: their long-lived tradition of taking in people in the winter town in wintertime to share with them the advantages of Winterfell’s higher technology of the glass gardens and hot springs, the benefit of which makes the difference between life and death in winter) but not only does Ned uphold that model, he capitalizes on it. You can easily see why he’d be so loved when you learn of the way he treated his lessers from minor nobles to the servants, and the apparent respect and engagement he showed to both his vassals and his household. Ned took care to foster loyalty in his people, employed a ruling theory based on having his vassals’ respect and admiration, and impressed the importance of doing that on his kids.

The Starklings’ behavior and ideals reflect Ned’s successes with them as much as it bears his mistakes. These kids’ value system is largely shaped by his teachings and it’s his moral code they try to follow. They aspire to (and do) follow his example. They are all, sometimes consciously, sometimes not, falling back on Ned’s teachings and model of behavior. They have a constant thread of “What Would Eddard Stark Do?” running through various storylines; a part of it is expected childish idolization of their father, for sure, but these kids also recognize that his morals and ideals are sound, and his example is a pretty good one to follow.Ned, by and large, shaped their personalities (some more than the others, obviously) and his influence is always there. The way Robb invites a different bannerman to ride with him everyday, which is echoed by Bran back in Winterfell, comes from Ned. Sansa’s absolute belief in the strategy of inspiring loyalty through love comes from Ned. Jon and Arya’s sense of justice comes from Ned. Their collective sense of responsibility and recognition of the value of every individual life comes from Ned.

Unfortunately, we get so little interaction between Ned and his children but what we do get, combined by how his kids think of him, tell of a loving, approachable and available father. He listened to his children and demonstrated a willingness to let their arguments and wishes change his mind in a way that isn’t exactly common in Westeros (e.g: listening to Jon’s argument and allowing the kids to keep the direwolves after he initially refused Bran, hiring Syrio to train Arya and planning to offer for him to accompany them back to Winterfell). Ned clearly did not see his children as investments or marriage pawns to be used to bolster his own power which is pretty rare in Westeros. He was attentive and protective of them and of their right to be children. He was very hands-on when it comes to his boys’ education, and his teaching method was pretty good; he taught by example, for starters, and he explained why he does something and what meaning lies behind his actions.

And we can’t talk about the kind of man Ned is without talking about what he did for Jon. To be clear, I’m highly critical of how Ned handled things with Jon but I’m not unaware that Ned’s choice to give Jon a relatively good life with excellent education and a family that (mostly) loved him came at no small expense to Ned and his marriage. He did not have to raise Jon in Winterfell to honor his promise to Lyanna (as far as we know anyway since we don’t know the exact promise Ned made.) He could have let Jon disappear into the Neck with Howland, but he chose to assume responsibility for the kid himself. He chose to give Jon an education on par with Robb’s and raise his biological children to love their ostensible bastard brother. Not many men would choose to do so. I’ll give credit where credit is due.

So no, anon, I definitely do not think Ned is a failure, far from it. But he was still a Westerosi man raised in a patriarchal society and wasn’t immune to its rigid rules and prejudices. He was still someone who made mistakes with his kids - he simply did not have any sensible choice in some places in the narrative, which has to be taken into account when we discuss him, but we also have to acknowledge that he was someone who dealt with trauma and situations out of his control by avoiding thinking about them entirely. His protectiveness and desire to keep his children close, and keep them children, did impair a realistic planning for their future while his tendency to compartmentalize to deal with his trauma or guilt directly affected at least Jon and Sansa. But Ned, like everybody in either the fictional or the real world, succeeded and failed; he made good decisions and very very bad ones; he loved and championed and protected his children but also failed them. Being a good father or a good lord or a good person does not exempt him from making grievous mistakes, and those mistakes do not make him a failure or a bad person. It’s the totality of his actions and the context of said actions that determine the kind of person Ned was.