#the answer is bad laudna. it feels bad

[revvethasmythh]

How it started:

How it's going:

[antlereed]

really want a fearne and laudna convo so bad. +13 insight lie detector ask this bitch some direct questions

[utilitycaster]

Robbie's been playing Dorian as fairly quiet since coming back (as Marisha-as-Laudna pointed out), and I think this episode put a lot of it into perspective.

Dorian is profoundly unsure of his place - in general. The Crownkeepers are scattered and while Dorian is welcome in Bells Hells - is a member of Bells Hells, without question - he's been absent for many of their adventures.

He is also, suddenly, the heir and not the spare to the leadership of the Silken Squall, a responsibility he did not expect to have and which he fled shortly before the events of EXU. He mentions his feelings seem unimportant, a reflection perhaps on both how powerless he's felt as of late regarding the events of the solstice, and much more long-standing acknowledgement of a childhood that pushed him into a role that did not fit him. Bells Hells make him feel important - which is more of the same issue. When Dorian is important, his feelings can't be because perhaps more so than anyone else in the party, he knows of the sacrifices of leadership. And now, both because of Bells Hells' involvement in world events, and Dorian's new and unwanted role as the crown prince, those sacrifices feel more necessary to him than ever.

He introduces himself as a bad liar, and now he's simply honestly stating that he's not sharing information. He also says he knows it will come from him; he's not just no longer a liar, but no longer a runaway. Even on the run with the Crown Keepers, something found him; what's the point.

It is unsurprising (and entirely understandable) that Dorian has no desire to make deals with the gods, given how that turned out for Opal, but his view towards the gods is a much more nuanced one than Braius or Ashton's. He remarks that the simple harvest-based cultural reverence Whitestone holds for the Dawnfather is perhaps the heart of worship - an opinion that lines up with, at least, Nick's interpretation of the Dawnfather. He seems affected by the revelation - new to him - that when Predathos first came to Exandria, it killed two of the gods, whom he knows from the Occultus Thalamus see each other as family.

There are two questions Dorian not only doesn't answer, but doesn't acknowledge. He doesn't answer Laudna's question about whether he feels responsible, but I think we know his answer. And he doesn't answer whether he would bring back Cyrus, if he can (and he might be able to). I don't know if he knows; something, certainly, is keeping him up at night.

The most piercing questions Bells Hells ask of each other this episode center around what they might do in a desperate situation: whether Braius will choose to harm the Platinum Dragon instead of stop Ludinus (as Asmodeus chose in Downfall); what terrible things Fearne might do to protect those she loves (as the Primes did in Aeor). Fearne declines that answer. Orym and Imogen express their doubts that they can ever know what's right. Only Ashton displays any confidence, at least outwardly; but only Dorian, I think, has previously been forced to consider a future where he might hold the fate of a group of people in his hands, and it has abruptly become a reality not just for the current crisis, but for the rest of his life.

[shorthaltsjester]

the thing is that the “laudna or delilah” debate i think actually misses the complexity of laudna as a character — which i think actually gets magnificently illustrated when marisha talks about and chooses her actions as laudna. like in the game, she tends to act comfortably as laudna even in those delilah filled moments once the initial indication has been made by matt that laudna feels that presence particularly in a given way. but the vehicle of a ttrpg as the medium in which laudna exists and interacts means that there is intractable ambiguity in the “did laudna do this or did delilah?” because the answer is always at the same time that both of them chose it as it is that laudna did, because matt always brings in delilah as a reaction to the choices made, either by laudna in the narrative or by marisha as the creator orienting laudna’s choices. like tonight, marisha certainly didn’t say I’m Looking At This Sword Appealing to Delilah, but she did have laudna who was traumatized by that sword engage with it while also engaged with an action she has pointedly and continuously accounted as a coping mechanism from years of solitude with nothing but the voice in her head. laudna didn’t choose to have delilah in her mind, but she did choose to ask for more power, she did choose to act without orym’s input, she did choose to use her form of dread, whether or not she chose the form which it took. especially with the the indicators that this is a storyline alluding to addiction (something i’ve long suspected but has now been affirmed by marisha in the cooldown), it is extremely compelling that laudna is both insistent of her own responsibility when it comes to intentions but is absolutely avoidant to the point of absolute denial when it comes to consequences. this was especially apparent when imogen asked if laudna’s choices and actions were all her own and laudna insisted they were, but then ended the episode with a form of dread the image of delilah briarwood fading from around her as she repeated “i didn’t mean it.”

it is particularly interesting when she is alongside imogen because i think the thing that is the most compelling to me about them right now si something that laura (iirc) alluded to in the cooldown about how imogen has chosen a significant turn away from predathos at the same time laudna has leaned in hard to delilah. in a lot of ways imogen has been very like laudna when it comes to the importance of intentions vs. consequences, at least insofar as her experience with her powers led to a different kind of isolation than laudna’s but still led imogen to experience situations in which she was confronted by the cruelty of thoughts much more expediently than she was with the cruelty of actions. and while laudna has experienced the cruelty of actions, she ties those intensely to bad intentions as well — cruel actions come from cruel thoughts. i mean, that’s what fun scary refers to — in that first interaction with those kids, we get a clear though undoubtedly unintentional insight into the perspectives that laudna and imogen both have on the cruelty that the world contains. laudna sees no harm in the fear she instills in those children because she loves kids, her intention was fun, her actions can’t be truly harmful if she never intended it. and interestingly, imogen disagrees that laudna is fun scary at all, she actually points out that laudna is scary scary, but in a good way.

and so we have this dynamic between two characters who have been the balms to one another’s solitude — which, as has been expressed in other posts, in both cases emerged from their commitments to their outlooks: laudna continued to appear as a witch on the outskirts of town, likely engaging in haunting behaviour if her actions throughout the campaign have been any indicator, and continued to run until, interestingly, someone who could read her mind was the first person to truly realize she meant no harm. imogen isolated because she was inundated with thoughts and turned misanthropic because of how often those thoughts were negative and cruel, until someone (who partakes in actions that can very easily be considered at least appearing to be negative or scary) had thoughts that were good. and they fell in love — with a confession scene where laudna raised concern that she might be a bad person, because she herself had ill intentions in reaction to bor’dor (absolutely mediated by deliliah, but her own emotional reaction that prompted that mediation). and imogen’s rebuttal isn’t a reference to laudna’s choices or her actions but to the thoughts she’s had that imogen has been witness to.

except. except it’s been months and imogen has a mother who had the best of intentions to start with . intentions that look a lot like imogen’s own, but now she stands at the side of a man willing to risk the entire world so that he can (ostensibly) no longer have to deal with divinity. imogen’s mother who allows the murder of countless people, of every member of the hells themselves except imogen, of oryms family, to get the answers and the solution that imogen herself is looking for. and as imogen has gotten further in the journey, the role of thoughts and intention has become apparent in its limits. because it’s true that they are important, it marks a difference between ludinus and liliana absolutely when it comes to likelihood that they might have a path for redemption, but it doesn’t mark much of a difference for the lives lost. and imogen has become much more concerned with this, i think maybe most clearly in her decisions around her last few predathos diving dreams because her hesitation hasn’t been that they need to consider the sides more, it’s been that, regardless of her intent to come back to the hells, to get information for their mission, her will might still lose the fight against the pull of predathos and if she’s forced to be this vessel which might allow it free, it might not matter as much what her intentions are when she dreams.

and at the same time. laudna has been confronted with the same evidence that her worldview might not paint a complete picture, but she’s still looking at that incomplete image as the whole. as is clear in her reaction to liliana, where she sets up her position to imogen by referring to her own love for her — for laudna, liliana must not actually love imogen, couldn’t possibly if the outcome of her actions is imogen growing up without her mother and liliana aiding and abetting (even if occasionally Maybe limiting) exandrias mage criminal of the decade. except, as imogen who has started to be checked on her flawed thoughts > actions perspective points out, that inconsistency isn’t one that laudna is immune to — laudna loves imogen and the hells and undoubtedly wants to see them live in a world they can thrive in, but she’ll also give up pieces of herself and make decisions without their input that have implications for those she chooses to exclude as evident in her choice with the sword,

and so tonight’s everything was delicious . when marisha’s interparty conflict beam hits it hits and it did tonight but the conversation between laudna and imogen was truly truly fantastic and so compelling because you get both laudna so locked into the familiar comforting behaviour that thinking that her intentions are all that matters is and being confronted by the fact that right now the consequences seem so enormous that the comfort is cold and imogen realizing that the thing that she’s been struggling through with her mother — and don’t get me started about imogen’s response to her mother saying she’s made her choices for imogen and the fact that laudna’s first explanation of why she chose this was a similar appeal to protecting imogen — is the same thing that has a hold of the woman she loves, though in different forms. and god, not to add another unnecessary sidebar, but laura is truly so good at coming up with heartwrenching prompts? dialogue? i dunno what to call it but the way that taliesin is insane with one liners, laura is like that with setting up conversations and then eventually spiking them into my heart because jesus the “i just watch. [as she plunges a dagger into her heart]” “i’ll always love you, i just don’t know what to do with it” “i didn’t mean it” “i know” because that’s the thing, that’s the struggle . ethel cain voice directed at laudna and liliana. imogen temult loves you but not enough to save you. because it doesn’t matter how much anyone loves laudna if she still believes in the necessity of delilah, it doesn’t matter how much anyone loves liliana if she still believes her presence at ludinus’ side is a requirement. and that’s not to reduce the degree to which they both have undoubtedly been trained to believe those things, but it is to say that both in the text and in the real world situations to which people love to refer when reducing agency to make characters more girlboss or whatever — it’s actually explicitly the role that laudna ascribes to her own emotions and choices and value that will lead her to a life where delilah does not have full reign.

the ambiguity and complexity is that as long as laudna wants (which translates to a need for her) her power, she wants delilah and whatever words that delilah will feed her to validate the need for and/or increase that power, which means that her actions are always her own, and the consequences are always hers to bear. the messiness is her continued insistence on separating intention from consequence — because laudna never means harm, for her it’s about protection, even power doesn’t seem to be power for its own sake. even with orym tonight it was about protecting orym from the sword, but also of course about finding power for delilah so that deliliah might also grant her more power so that she can help save imogen and the hells and the world. but that means when she explains to others she can make claims like i didn’t mean to, or that the choice was all her own because as incorrect to anyone else, laudna has completely committed to her founded belief that intentions matter more than anything else when it comes to the judgement of someone and their actions.

[dumpinggroundfornonsense]

Want to hear something sad about Orym? Too bad! We’re in this together buddy.

So there’s many ways we can look at the whole Orym missing Dorian and thinking “sometimes I think that’s not okay” with the obvious and probably right answer being, Orym feels guilty that he loves someone else that’s not his husband.

But here’s the sad thought my brain had: What if Orym thinks he isn’t deserving of love. Through EXU and C3 we’ve had Orym classic little man who doesn’t want to be the main character. What brings me to this point is when he finds out about Laudna and her whole hung from a tree deal. He’s shocked that she’s a positive person. He doesn’t understand it. Why? Because he lost his husband and father in law. Not only lost but he failed them and if he fails again he’s worthless. Hence the whole “Overwhelming sense of failure” Liam mentioned when Orym died when Imogen exploded that one time.

Orym fully believes he isn’t worth love anymore. He feels bad he loves Dorian not because he thinks he’s going against his dead husband but because he isn’t worth being loved back.

[sassy-cass-16]

Oh god I promised myself no bell’s hells meta until c3 ends but my brain is turning the “can she be trusted?” line over and over like chicken at the shawarma shop. because there are layers to that.

more under the cut because i let this run away from me:

so first off, there's the obvious: dorian initially seems to start to address the whole group, everyone who's left in the inn room, but turns and just locks eyes with orym when he asks. orym, who of everyone has the most reason to be biased against laudna right now. orym, who just got into a fight with laudna over the sword that killed both of them and orym's husband and father-in-law. that's who dorian thinks to ask, because he trusts orym not to let his judgment be clouded.

dorian first saw orym again after months of being separated, like, three days ago, and despite how much orym has visibly changed in those months, dorian doesn't hesitate to believe that orym will still be objective. he trusts that orym will be the one to look at this situation and tell him the truth.

because dorian has experience with orym telling him the truth. dorian knows firsthand how willing orym is to shuck his personal feelings in favour of what's true. dorian just saw what he could have become, had orym not stepped in to stop him taking the circlet of barbed vision. he owes the fact that he's alive and beholden to no gods to orym's willingness to be rational and objective in a situation involving a powerful magical item. by his own admission, "i wouldn't be here without you."

so of course dorian trusts him right now.

and there's something to the exclusion of the others, with that. dorian doesn't look to fearne and orym, although that would make sense because he's known the two of them the longest. he doesn't look to chetney, who's proven to be able to get a handle on this with the scream needle compromise. he doesn't look to ashton, who's been extremely levelheaded through this whole mess. he looks at orym, exclusively. he is asking orym, exclusively. not the group, although everyone decides to jump in to answer and then imogen comes through the window to complicate the matter. just orym.

dorian is the kind of person with a lot of potential for darkness in him. he hides it well because he's also deeply kind and friendly, but it's always been there. he's just been through something massively traumatic, and that was after the original circlet conflict back in exu prime. he had his alignment forcibly changed from good to neutral. but even after all he's gone though, orym's alignment is still good.

as much as orym doesn't want to be a leader and prefers to be a protector and follower, he does very well in situations where he takes on an amount of responsibility. when he's in some level of control over a situation, he takes to it naturally. he's a very good babysitter to his gaggle of weirdos. the "can she be trusted?" might have been an attempt on dorian's part to give orym a bit more control here. to reassure him that regardless of anyone else's feelings—regardless of how laudna's reaction might have affected him—orym deserves to be trusted, and he can make a decision that dorian will trust.

back in exu and all the way into early c3, dorian and orym slotted into a sort of parental position in their groups. watching over the crownkeepers' clothes when they went skinny dipping in exu. orym repeatedly steering everybody away from bad ideas. matt even described dorian leaving dariax in zephrah in 4sd as "dad just going out to get cigarettes." there's always been that underlying sense of "we are two of a pair" with dorian and orym. not to say that either of them don't see the others as adults, but they do have that rapport of being the babysitters in the gaggle of weirdos.

that kind of bond is just part of their dynamic. but especially in light of what's been happening while they were separated, and then what happened between them earlier that evening, "can she be trusted?" is a reminder of that bond. orym's been lonely, by his own admission, and one of the secrets he divulged at nana morri's was "i really miss dorian." he broke down crying during his last message through the sending stone, and then again on the bench not a few hours before this whole incident went down.

dorian came to comfort him. he flat-out said to orym's face "i'm here now." he reminded orym that he needs to rely on other people, that he can't always be the one saving everybody else. he gave orym the room to not be the strong one, and told him he has that room because dorian's there to support him. they can be two of a pair again.

he knows orym's been feeling like he can't do anything, like he had to resort to what he stopped dorian from doing with the circlet. and so dorian both gives him a choice to make, something to do, and shows him that he still trusts him unconditionally. "can she be trusted?" also means "i trust you" and "i'm here with you" and "this is how we've always been."

we know from liam in 4sd that orym has feelings for dorian that he's not sure are reciprocated. but even regardless of the romantic element here, dorian and orym have always had a partnership. they have always been two of a pair. the sequence of events leading to "can she be trusted?" is a perfect microcosm of he relationship between the two of them. it's just incredible.

[pocketgalaxies]

also it's rly fun to finally see how delilah talks to laudna when she's present and laudna's alone because like. she's not mean and she's honestly not all that suspiciously evil-sounding, she's just blunt and a bit patronizing. and i think even if she tortured and murdered laudna it makes a lot of sense why laudna would kind of let that stuff fall to the wayside after 30 years of feeling like this person is the only one who has never left you and she's the only one who is looking out for you (both of which were unequivocally true for a long time). and the way laudna asks her about what she thinks of the situation and of ashton, like a young girl trying to learn from an adult on how to feel about a confusing and new situation, and the way delilah just answers her questions, seemingly pretty honestly. which also reminds me of when laudna took imogen's rock and asked delilah what it was, because in marisha's own words, she thought delilah would help! and i think if it were anything else other than a delicious magical rock that delilah wanted to eat so bad, i truly think she would have! and she gave them that lil q&a during girls night and was very generous with her answers!

anyway my point is this whole time we've been seeing delilah from an outsider's pov just like imogen and therefore are pretty aligned with imogen's near-uncompromising Fuck Delilah And Also Fuck Delilah mindset. but this was the first time we've really gotten to see that relationship from within, from how laudna's seen it her whole life, and now i certainly understand laudna's longstanding But Maybe Delilah's Not So Bad mindset much more

[annemarieyeretzian]

laudna telling dorian “you haven’t said much at all since your return. in fact, you were almost quite glib, flippant about it on your return, in regards to the death of your brother.” and orym adding “it was my question, too.” and laudna asking “are you running from it? do you feel responsible? are you trying not to process it? do you feel like, if there is a chance at reversing it, that you would take it, even if it came at a cost? speaking of making deals with gods.” and saying gently “answer how you see fit. this is not meant to bully anyone into talking about things they don’t want to talk about.” and dorian saying “I don’t know my place in all this sometimes, and sometimes the way I feel feels unimportant. but that’s okay. I’ve felt like that most of my life. but when I’m with you, I feel important. I can’t even believe you’ve been thinking about that at all with all that’s going on. I’ve gotten really good at putting my feelings where they should go for the greater good. and for now, allow me to continue.” – not me reading too much into him looking over at orym before he continues 👀 – “but it doesn’t mean I don’t feel them. it doesn’t mean I don’t think about them. I’m not shallow or callous or unthinking.” and then looking directly at orym and saying “when we first met, I was a liar. and a bad one. but I lied to hide what I feel, and now I don’t have to lie. I can just put it away. I know it will come for me one day, and I’m okay with that. there will only be one brother that I’ve ever had and none of you can replace him. nor would I try. he might have been a fool, but he was kind, and honorable, and honest. …but for my part, allow me to honor his memory by doing what is right because I know that’s what he would do. the only thing that scares me about being here anymore is that I don’t know what’s right or wrong anymore, and there’s no one here to guide us. we are leaderless, drifting, going on instinct and love. and sometimes that is not enough.”

[inconmess]

I've been building up this post for quite a while so I think everything in this post is kinda out of order and looks like a bit of a big word vomit... So sorry in advance. Also since it is kinda longer than I realise, I am putting it under the cut. And I am open to any discussion.

(Personally think I may have gotten a few things wrong and if so, please correct me?)

I think the thing about Orym and grief is... A part of him has never let himself grieve his loss properly. He has accepted that they are dead and will never come back, yes. He makes it a point to live up to them everyday, yes. But acceptance is not the same as grief, it is a part of it but not the same.

And this was an interesting discussion I was having with my friends and I feel that it strikes so true here, is the fact that you remember the worst moments of your life more vividly than the happiest moments because in your happy moments, you don't question what happened to you as much as you question your worst moments in life.

And Orym has lived with that question for six years. Now, the same could be said to Ashton and Imogen and Fearne and the rest of the Bells Hells really but as pointed out in this post by @caeslxys. (a really good pot btw) Even though the others have had their questions as to why a particular bad incident happened, Orym has had the shortest time to actually cope with it while for the others, it has been years at this point and maybe they have sort of come to peace with most of their shit before it came back to hit them in their face. And for some, it just hit them recently.

And for Orym the question of "Why?" resurfaces again and again the more he seeks out answers and when he does get the answer... I don't think anyone would really love to learn that the two most important people in their lives were dead because "it was just collateral damage. They didn't really have to die but they did." Not when you were having a happy, peaceful life. They signed up for this, yes. But it is also not fair to have your whole life cut short just because a big shot wants to test a theory.

And I am not trying to say that Orym bringing up his losses every time they have a discussion about the Vanguard is right or wrong because he has every right to and may be wrong at the same time because he is biased. Because at this point, he is very biased.

Apart from what I mentioned above, Orym watched Otohan kill his husband and father. He fought Otohan again and this time lost his life, Fearne and Laudna. He fights Otohan again and nearly loses Keyleth. Fights Otohan again a fourth time and knows that there would've been more losses if FCG hadn't sacrificed themselves. Not to forget Otohan killing Eshteross, something I think Orym internally blames himself for because she read his mind for the information. And even if Otohan is now dead, the loss stays.

I also think that seeing Will when he died had more of a personal impact than he realised because I know while seeing the dead person can sometimes bring some comfort, at the same time, when you are trying to live up to them, trying to answer questions that are just beyond you when you really haven't had the chance to completely grieve and accept, the grief possibly just hits you more.

SO while the Hells have had their personal losses with the Vanguard and Otohan, I think Orym has had the longest beef with the group among them all. He didn't know about the Vanguard 6 years ago, yes. He discovered their name along with the rest of the Hells. But loss wise, Orym was the first of the lot to suffer due to the Vanguard.

This is not me trying to put an exact scale or measurement of the loss cuz it is intangible and stuff. But he's been dealing with it for 6 years. Maybe not for harbouring revenge, but the resentment hasn't completely gone but rather festered the more he seeked answers. So he is going to be extra jaded.

But not to forget the fact that up until Bordor, he did try to see the Vanguard's point too, still kinda does (the locket he took from a Vanguard member as a reminder) but I think by the time of Bordor's betrayal, he's had too many losses with the Vanguard to actually care of their point of view because all he's seen of their group is innocent people getting killed or almost killed for no reason at all.

Bordor's beef as a person from the Vanguard had been against Laudna, Orym and Ashton but he still nearly killed Prism and would've probably marked it off as collateral if she'd died. Dropping off the locket with Bordor doesn't mean that he left all his empathy but at the same time, like he mentions, they are at war. And war doesn't really discriminate amongst people. It just takes.

Like he said to Imogen, I think he still tries to believe the Vanguard can have some people who are good and not all of them are evil but all he's know from the Vanguard at this point is loss and Liliana's blind faith towards Ludinus or Predathos doesn't help.

So back to the recent episode.

Do I think that it is wrong for Orym to bring up to Liliana about his dead family as an answer to her response. No. Do I think it was a wrong time to bring it up? Maybe. Because Liliana was not being confrontational but Orym was turning confrontational the more the discussion happened.

But the thing about Orym saying it to her face is that... It is one thing to know that there have been deaths and even if Liliana didn't directly cause it, she was a part of the group that did and brush it off as collateral damage. And no one does a census or survey post the "collateral damage" on how it affects the other person because now, they have what they want to there is no use to go back there.

And Orym is kinda like that mirror which is like... "SO you had a loss because of the gods and now are going around leaving collateral damage you want to fix stuff? Guess what? Your collateral damage was my life that you just uprooted just like the gods/god people did yours, so are you really any different from the people you hate and the change you want to bring about?" (which is kinda the parallel between Orym and Bordor I find really interesting because this is a cycle that is never ending at the end of the day)

And did Orym need that outlet? Hells yeah. GIVE THAT MAN A HUG!

[butterflydm]

cr 106 & 107

Glad I rewatched 106, because I really did miss a lot while I feeling a bit under the weather last week, so I missed most of the actual infiltration. The main thing I remembered from last week was going "wow this is really the monsterfucker campaign" after all the flirting at Nana Morri's, lol. It really does amuse me that the entire group is so into Morri and Ira while sending shade in the direction of the gods, who apparently just needed to be more capricious and weirder and less-trustworthy in order to trigger Bells Hells' monsterfucking desires. (did the ending of 107 confirm or refute this feeling? lol)

(side note: I do feel sad for Birdie and Ollie. Given Fearne's upbringing and relative isolation, I understand why she flat-out refuses to feel that Nana Morri is capable of ever doing anything wrong or bad, but man did Birdie and Ollie get screwed over by Nana Morri)

The initial battle was quite exciting but the secondary battle was even more so. I am so glad that Imogen pulled the trigger on that second fight ("I don't want Predathos to be free!") because giving the go-ahead for the Unseelie army to help Ludinus until the Sorrowlord decides it's time to betray Ludinus genuinely would be an actual betrayal of all of the people that they just spoke to in Vasselheim (including Keyleth). I think it was Marisha/Laudna who would pointed out that they would then be responsible for killing all of those people on both sides if they did something like that.

Also: Laudna has disintegrate! Wow!

Bells Hells finally got a sign from a god that was obvious enough that they noticed it, you guys! Big moment! It only took a temple being magically being rebuilt before their eyes. Also, so excited that we're getting more from the Arch Heart here. (and so so excited about our special guest, Abubakar!). They wanted to talk to a god.

Arch Heart is like, okay, no more time for being subtle. We're playing hardball. Also, they're a total prankster, which fits, given that they're the patron of all things fey.

Also Ashton getting this direct refutation of their belief that the gods would immediately smite them if they knew that the gods had found out that they knew the truth.

So two of the gods want to "let go" (leave Exandria, presumably) while the others want to stay. "Try convincing my family to leave their children." They believe that the only way they can get the others to leave is to scare the ever-loving fuck out of them.

Abubakar's Arch Heart remains very very charming. Also I do not trust them, lol. They basically want the same thing as Fearne's daddy, don't they? Just for a different reason.

Their argument is that BH should sacrifice one of their own (Imogen or Fearne) in order to scare the rest of the god family off Exandria so that they can have their family back. Or at least that's how it sounds. "Make sacrifices for the greater good" -- but what is the greater good. That's the question that Bells Hells has to answer here.

Orym being like "idk if I think you actually have that much influence over your siblings" lol.

Also, there are way too many ??? in the Arch Heart's plans for my personal taste, but we'll see what Bells Hells thinks, I guess.

Literally everyone's plan who wants to use Predathos to do anything:

Step 1: Free Predathos

Step 2: ????

Step 3: Profit!

I haven't found any of their arguments convincing, lol.

[notori]

On a more genuine note from my previous post though: I do not think Imodna will go the same way as Vaxleth for a few reasons.

Vax's story was very personal to Liam. It always frustrates me when people act like the Raven Queen 'took Vax away' (and thus she is a bad goddess) when in fact she answered his prayer and granted his wish. Vax's story is about "Take me instead!" - not some kind of "Don't let Vex die!", and certainly not someone who was raised from the dead without their consent and bound like a puppet. Unless such an ending is expressly what Marisha wants for her character, I don't see it being narratively satisfying. Even if Laudna dies in sacrifice to save the others, because of the breadth of Delilah's power, it would be more of a general "I'm dying to save everyone" and less personal (and impactful) than Vax's trading his life for Vex's.

I joked about how this is Delilah Briarwood vs Laura Bailey again, so don't sweat it, but it's true! The players play their characters differently. Liam loves tragedy and plays it well; Laura loves romance and plays it well. Percy also had a dark streak with a hunger for power, and Vex would not let him go. I see more parallels with themes like: "I feel cruel, but in control." and "Take the mask off." Meanwhile, Imogen and Keyleth are different characters and their love interests have different relationships with death. In the end, the reason Keyleth could not do anything against the Raven Queen isn't because she's a god and Keyleth is not, but because Vax - as a paladin - chose to honour his faith and uphold his end of the deal. Imogen is not in that position because Laudna is not in that position. Laudna may see herself as just a puppet, or a risk, or a dead end - but we the audience, and Imogen, know that she is not (maybe a bit of a calculated risk). If anything, I see us on the precipice of an arc of Imogen inspiring Laudna to fight for her independence again and figuring out a way to do that (this is a world of magic after all).

And that theme of fighting for independence is something that has been there since the beginning. We have seen it both in analysis and confirmed on 4SD that Laudna's relationship with Delilah is in many ways similar to struggling with addiction. And now, into year three of C3, we are really seeing that take form when things get rough. When things get out of control, when you get desperate, that's when you grasp at anything to make it easier. It would be a real kick in the teeth to have her not overcome that struggle. Of course, there's the possibility that she does overcome that struggle by getting rid of Delilah and dying as a result. But out of game it has been referred to more in line with addiction that is constantly managed rather than addiction that is ended cold turkey - which for some people is the only way. I'll admit this one is more a personal preference but I do see it overall leaving a bad taste if Laudna were to die from Delilah in some way (again). Presuming they resolve issues with the solstice and resurrection spells, True Resurrection does exist and I'm certain the Hells would work off a 25k GP debt to bring Laudna back for good (which I see as more of a final episode/epilogue/post-game situation).

Regardless, it's a beautiful story and I'm sure that whatever happens will be what the players want. However, in this case I genuinely don't see them repeating something they have done before. Although we saw many parallels last night, there is still much which sets Imodna and Vaxleth apart narratively.

[flurry-of-beaus-pop-pop]

In reference to this post, I think that @beauregardlionett had the best answer that quite honestly hits the nail on the head...

Across the board, in every sense of the word, there is zero investment from the Bells Hells...

None of them are particularly invested in the Gods and are only participating in the attempt to stop them because "it's the right thing to do".

None of them have been particularly interested in exploring their backstories/the more personal storylines, and tend to rush through them in favor of getting back to the big quest that they aren't any more invested in.

None of them even really have an investment in the personal relationships... the party feels more like acquaintances than an actual party, like if it wasn't for this "big bad plot" then they honestly probably wouldn't hesitate to go their separate ways. Even in more developed relationships like Orym and Fearne's or Imogen and Laudna's or Ashton and FCG's, they hit a certain point and then it was like "what relationship?" Imogen and Laudna for example, they got together and then it's like that relationship became non-existent outside of the occasional "don't die" or "move on".

There is no investment from the Bells Hells in any part of this and so it's SO difficult for the audience to be invested in it.

Like, the best episodes, in my opinion, were the ones with Chetney, Deanna, Imogen, Fearne, and FCG because that entire arc was investment. Investment in their relationships, investment in helping others because they genuinely wanted to, investment in the mission and finding the information they need.

[meid4]

Why are Bells Hells

i was thinking about people saying that Bells Hells didn't have any reason to stay together or go on the moon mission so here is me getting some answers to it even if there is more i'm sure !

Imogen :

She started the campaign by wanting to know more about her mother, find her and so even if she has found her mom once, i think she would want to stop her now bc she knows she is with the bad guys. She feels involved.

She gets her powers from the moon, from predathos and she wants to know more about her powers and going on the moon would help her understand who she is more.

She wants to kill Otohan because she killed Laudna who she loves very much and otohan is part of "the release predathos team" so it gives her the want to stop it.

She grew also as a recluse at some point because her own dad didn't talk to her anymore and the town hated her so now that she has met people that understands her, she also tries to make things to work with them.

Laudna :

She has been following Imogen for years now, they have been going from town to town and she just wants to stay with her friend (now lover), someone that accepts her and just be with her wherever Imogen goes.

She always wanted to belong, she enjoys being with a group that accepts her, that she can be herself with and if these people want to save the world, she wants to protect them and stay beside them.

Her life was taken at such a young age and was a recluse for many years and now she is finally enjoying seeing the world and meeting new people, she is always happy when they go somewhere new.

Orym :

Otohan killed his family, he will do everything to stop them and kill them or at least stop their plans.

He serves people, he is a fighter, Trent is a threat to the people he wants to protect and so he will do everything to stop him.

He absolutly grew fond of the people he is travelling with, especially Fearne and he thinks they can help him get revenge or stop the bad guys.

Fearne :

She grew up in the feywild and was only surrounded with fey creatures and Nana Morri, she just loves to be on Exandria (even if i know that she misses the feywild) and explore. She is absolutly fascinated by everything and just wants to have fun.

About the moon stuff, i think her parents involvement peaked her interested about it and it has to spark something in her.

Orym of course is her best friend and she just wants to stay with him. She is also close with the witches and really bond with them. Than her relationship with Ashton, wathever it will be, she likes them.

Ashton :

Ashton always wanted to find a purpose kinda, we've seen it in the latest episode, they wanted to be stronger, find why they are on exandria, to be part of something big.

They always wanted to have a group of friends that would stick up with them, that would'nt leave them behind like the nobody's did, like previous people did and them "fucking up" last time but the group not leaving them has made them like them even more. And they wanna heal, they are trying.

FCG :

They started being there mostly bc they were with Ashton and just have a friend, they had just lost their group, they were grieving. And now finding this new group that again doesn't judge them for what they did and try's to make things work, they love it.

They are absolutly going against what they were made for (harming people) and they want to help people, heal them emotionally and physically. They are trying to make up for the wrong they did.

Their connection with the Changebringer absolutly make them want to help the gods even if there is questionning but they think it's the right thing to do. Their god also gives them purpose.

Chetney :

He doesn't want to be forgotten, he wants to be powerfull, especially. He is scared he will die and that nobody will remember him so Chetney saving the world and go to the moon, would absolutly make him known.

I think he also just goes with the flow, he has done so many things with his life and he has this group now, it's just new adventures, they helped him get to the Gorgynei and to know his powers better. He just has fun with them and wants to see more and have fun.

He thinks going to the moon is bonkers c'mon

Bells Hells are going on this crazy adventure for many reasons that are mainly to finally have this group that accepts them and have an actual happy ending so even they all don't want SPECIFICALLY save the gods, they have other motivation to do what they do. If one wants to do something, they will all help them do it.

They are not perfect and don't always work good together but they are trying and maybe that is enough for now, trying to be better, to stay with eachother and make things work. The most of them were lonely, never had a group of friends, are grieving and them wanting not to lose their bond is normal. And predathos maybe destroying the world is a bit of an obstacles to that.

Also they are having so much fun together c'mon.

It's dnd guys, it's a game, it would be annoying if they were just like "nah i don't care", they can but they love what Matt is building for them, the story. If mostly the players sometimes want to know more and get on the adventure, maybe that's enough. They can just play how they want.

And if they think their character doesn't want to be there anymore, they will just make them leave. Sam already had a character leave the campaign, it can happen again. The players know better what they want for their character.

[utilitycaster]

I think this is the last I have to say about it, certainly not until new episodes air, but the thing about What The Fuck Is Up With That is that it's emblematic of the issues Bells Hells have - and to be honest I suspect always might have - regarding trust. It's a party game. It's a fun way to get surface-level answers. It's an infodump. It's telling not showing. It's not a bad thing, but you don't build trust, actually, by providing every piece of information! In fact, sometimes, it's good to keep your inside thoughts inside! You build trust with other people through your actions: through keeping your word, through proving your ability to do what they expect of you. Perhaps this is a personal experience and not a universal tenet, but people who share everything about themselves right away and people who end up being genuinely reliable and close and trustworthy are often two nearly entirely separate camps.

This also does once again feel like something with an interesting echo within the fandom. Earlier on in the campaign, before the introduction of 4-Sided Dive, I received a lot of questions about whether it would be helpful if we had something like Talks and my response was usually "no, the issue is that I know everything about the backstory and not actually much anyone's motivations; I have a factual list of personal history and I'm looking for a sense of someone's personality." This still comes up occasionally when I talk about Laudna, whose motivations remain hazy much of the time; we have a quite detailed outline of her history but it is missing the only things that actually matter. We know what. We don't know why. Bells Hells knows so much what about each other and they still struggle, even now, with "why".

And when it comes to why, telling people is nice, but it's very easy to lie about motivations. Indeed, that's why Imogen ends up fooled by her mother; she knows what Liliana did but assumed there was a deeper why than there ended up being; that Liliana wasn't simply seduced by the idea that Predathos would free her and Imogen from the burden of their powers but was also working as a force for good within the Vanguard and wouldn't hurt so many people. The revelation that the "why" really was that simple was ultimately why Imogen felt betrayed. Knowing more details about Liliana doesn't help.

Chetney ends up being the illustrative exception here, if that helps. He arrived late to the party. He never played What The Fuck Is Up With That. He even told them what he was there for (looking for Gurge) and lied about the "why" (werewolf reasons) initially. He to this day keeps secrets. But he's open about keeping secrets. That caginess allows him to be one of the party members most people trust on a fundamental level. They don't trust him to be kind, or generous per se; they don't even trust him to not hurt them. But they trust him to not hurt them intentionally, since he's repeatedly shown he will take steps to avoid this. He is cagey and uncooperative during most of the honesty exercise, but when he finally says something, it isn't a judgement - it is an explanation of his own behavior. When he declines to share his deal with Morri, he still reassures them that he did not do anything that would fall to them - and that's honest, and that's what matters, that he made a deal for himself and himself alone. Compare with Orym, who hides even the fact he made the deal, or Ashton a couple days ago, who hid their true plans with the shard. On the surface, Chetney is the one hiding something - but he is honest that he hides things. If Chetney's secret comes out? It won't change the party's understanding of his trustworthiness; it will just change some of the facts. If Orym's comes out or when Ashton's was revealed? That's a huge change in the party's understanding of their motivations.

Honesty in this party has been a game from the start, and as the exercises show, it still mostly is. A panopticon is, unsurprisingly, not a great way to make people trust each other; a little open hiding and actions over words are in order. I don't think that's necessarily a problem, in that I think Bells Hells share, if not a vast overreaching goal, an agreement regarding their pretty significant task. But I think any deeper trust is yet to be actually tested, tried, and forged.

[quipxotic]

Answers and events I hope for in C3E96; spoilers for C3E95 below the cut, obviously, and also because it got really long:

For everyone left in the room to talk about what Orym experienced in the fight. I think it’s hard to judge where people will ultimately fall on the intra-party conflict based only on what we saw in that last hour of the previous episode when, A) they woke up in the middle of a situation and may have missed some of the context, and B) were so shocked in the moment that some of them seemed unsure of how to act or what to feel. Talking about it would be helpful to everyone, including the audience. I’m particularly interested in the Ashton-Orym-Fearne of it all. Ashton tried to de-escalate and get Laudna to apologize, but was not as demonstrably supportive of Orym having the sword as Dorian and Chet were. Previously Ashton and Orym have been among each others' biggest supporters, so how does Orym feel about that reaction? Personally, I don't think this will open a rift between the tanks, but it would be bad if it did. Also, Fearne was reluctant to take sides between her two friends. How does Orym feel about that?

For Imogen to return to BH’s room and immediately blurt out that Laudna is knowingly feeding Delilah. Do I think this will happen? No*. If she did do it, might Laudna see it as a betrayal? Probably. Might it ultimately help Laudna? I think it could help to have everyone know what she's dealing with and why she's acting out of character. Plus, while the reemergence of Delilah is a recent event in-story, I am personally ready for the narrative to move on from her being the unaddressed elephant in the room. And BH definitely needs to come up with a plan before Delilah either seizes control of Laudna or Percy sees her form of dread and takes the choice out of their hands.

How is Laudna going to act towards the rest of BH after her absorption of Otohan’s dagger? In her conversation with Imogen at the end of the last episode Laudna said she "didn't mean to...," but that seemed to me to have more to do with Laudna’s fear that she’d damaged their relationship, not any actual regrets about her actions. Will she be immediately apologetic with the rest of the Hells? Will she deflect and try to act like nothing has changed? As in her conversation with Imogen, her reaction may depend on how they act toward her and whether they insist on consequences.

Some push-back or boundary setting from BH toward Delilah and Laudna’s recent actions. Again, I’m not convinced this will happen based on prior experiences and I know they’re about to head into something difficult, but ignoring what’s happening with Laudna has the potential of making that difficult situation even more dangerous. When Ashton tried to absorb the shard, he had about two-and-half to three episodes-worth of consequences and mea culpas. You can debate whether that was warranted, and I know there are strong feelings on all sides there. You can argue that the situations are different, which is certainly true. But Ashton didn’t attack anyone in the party and, intentionally or unintentionally, Laudna did. There's got to be some kind of reckoning with her doing that. It’s not about whose actions were worse, again they are different situations. And it's not about making Laudna suffer because Ashton did, but the whole point of the trust-building exercises was to build a stronger group. This is a setback in that effort and I don’t think it’s just we fans who will draw connections between the two events.

Also, as an aside, I find it funny (in an "Oh look, narrative connections!" not "Ha-ha" kind of way) that both Ashton and Laudna's respective power grabs could have/may have destructive consequences for Whitestone. One up close and the other (currently) at a distance.

For Fearne to question Orym about his pact with Nana Morri. There’s been a lot of fandom speculation around what everyone’s reactions to that will be, so I can’t wait to see how it plays out in-game. I suspect there will be some surprises.

How will the Fearne/Ashton and Orym/Dorian relationships develop? Will the potential for romantic partnerships there change the EXU trio’s friendships with each other?

Let’s go to Aeor everyone! As a C3 fan, it’ll be my first time there but I’ve seen a lot of hints and discussion from C2 fans and I adored EXU: Calamity’s depiction of the Age of Arcanum, so I’m excited about BH exploring the ruins of another city from that time period.

Essek’s reaction to BH’s…everything. To the fight and the tension in the group, yes, but also to just them as individuals. I always enjoy outside characters' impressions of the Hells.

New outfits and character art! Maybe? Hopefully?

Where are the other members of the Cerberus Assembly and where do they stand on Ludinus and his plans?

*I will be very surprised if Imogen tells everyone, but I will not be surprised if she tells at least one person about it telepathically. In the past that person would have been Orym, so it'll be telling if she chooses to confide in him this time. Given the situation, she might go to Ashton, Chet, or Fearne instead and all of them would react to that information in very different ways.

[sparring-spirals]

Fearne looks at Imogen and asks "Are you sure it wasn't intentional?" and, oh boy, like-

Ashley says that Fearne is dealing with all kinds of new emotions since leaving the feywild- anxiety and fear and a gutwrenching feeling when someone you love is- not there anymore. However briefly. Fearne is still learning about the ins and outs of these emotions, the way they can take you over.

But it also means, I think, she lacks a certain kind of shame about it, about the way fear cracks her voice when Orym disappears from her sight, about the way she gets a little frantic at the thought of losing him- of losing any of them.

(And Fearne still feels bad about the coin toss- still grappling with it when she looks at Laudna. Because that was a snap decision with other people she loves on the other side, and maybe Fearne is still figuring out what to do with this kind of regret- what you can even do, in the throes of that kind of fear. but. i think that's its own meta.)

and Fearne has never been one to fear power, on its own- just marvelled in it, in the way that enemies fall and the air grows heavy and the world turns darker. It's a beautiful thing, isn't it? Just stunning. Gorgeous.

Fearne watches Imogen, who has been growing quieter and more frenzied and on edge, who is beautiful and powerful and who was, she knows, at some point hovering above them all, as their bodies lay strewn about a battlefield, so many of them ripped away from her and lost. And asks: "Are you sure it wasn't intentional?"

Referring to levelled city blocks but. Maybe thinking of- the bottomless pit that opens up if she thinks of a gap where Orym should be, of "Orym is dead" and a body in her arms, and maybe thinking of that threefold, crackling power in her veins, thinking of a panicked coin toss that tastes sour, weeks later, and all the other decisions a person might make, with that kind of fear in them.

And I don't think there's a world where Fearne would hold Imogen's answer against her.

But Imogen- Imogen who has been hearing, over and over, warnings about giving into the storm, about searches for answers going wrong, danger on their heels, who has power tinted red churning inside of her and keeping her friends safe, keeping everyone safe, who has been sneaking out to try to get answers from a mother who is- working with the enemy. Who can't even say the words, that Laudna was. dead. (Laudna is back now, Laudna is okay, Laudna is back.) Who has new entities she can summon that hurt her and the people around her but get the job done.

Who has all of this power, and all these reasons to use it, and all the ways it could hurt everyone if she does. Or maybe if she doesn't.

(Or maybe- maybe the choice isn't even in her hands at all, right?)

And there's a long silence, there's a long pause, where she doesn't look, she doesn't move,

and she says "I don't-." and she says "It just happened, Fearne, after Laudna-

It just happened."

And I don't know if she believes it, and I don't know if Fearne does, and I don't know if it matters (it probably does?) and- oh boy.