#then the same people want to claim that Sansa is exactly like Ned as a positive and proof she'll be Queen they can't even be consistent

[melrosing]

the thing that annoys me the most about the bullying claim among the stark sisters is that they talk about how much it affects Arya that she thinks she’s ugly and such and like she does, but she’s so much more worried about being “bad” she killed a boy. She’s also going through poverty and war and starving and being introduced to cults/bands of “justice” by murder

but nooooo she totally is more affected by being called horse face despite being compared to SOOOOOO MANY PRETTY PEOPLE AND THAT MEANS SHES GOOD (never mind that good looking=good person should NOT BE YOUR BASIS)

I think most people, and especially girls, know exactly how it feels to worry about your appearance and feel ugly and unattractive, and I get that this is a particular pain for Arya, who apparently has never been called pretty except by her dad one time in AGOT, in an offhanded comparison to her aunt Lyanna. I don't think attractiveness is the most important thing to validate in any child, but I do think that it is good and nice to affirm to your child that they have their own beauty, so that they can then negotiate their relationship with that word from a safer place in adulthood.

It's not about telling your child they don't look a certain way (e.g. no good telling Brienne she's a normal height and her nose is hardly crooked at all), but that the way they look is something unique to them and something they should take pride in, regardless of what others say. Like I think it's an OOC moment in the show, but I think it's sweet when Olenna tells Brienne she looks 'marvellous' or something. She's not saying 'you look like bella hadid', she's saying 'I love the way you look!' to a woman who has received nothing but insults (despite looking like fuckin. Gwendoline Christie lmao). that is nice. it's not the most important compliment anyone can receive, but it embraces divergence as positive.

as it goes though, Arya is a pretty girl and it's just weird that the adults found countless compliments for Sansa and none for Arya. and that's why I find it so bizarre that everyone wants to pin Arya's self-esteem issues on Sansa, a prepubescent child!! like, would Arya have taken these insults so hard if Cat had stepped in and said 'don't listen, you're a lovely girl and your father says you look just like your aunt Lyanna! sansa i am telling you off for calling people names'. children are always going to call each other mean names! it is one thing that is practically guaranteed to happen in any sibling relationship, and anyone who says otherwise is an only child or lying.

but it is much harder for a child to manage that hurt if they're getting called those names, and society seems to be reifying to truth of them at every turn! Septa Mordane is calling her ugly! Cat is calling her a mess! Ned has never complimented her till AGOT! etc! she has never received a compliment before! so how on earth can you say 'and Arya's self-esteem issues can all be traced back to the playground bickering between she and Sansa and Jeyne' when Arya is obviously getting the same message from what seem like far more authoritative sources! is it not worse that those sources are all complimenting Sansa all the time and never Arya? does that not make it worse when Sansa acts like a child about it? like!!

and yeah I agree that there are other more painful insecurities Arya is struggling with. I do think at least part of the reason that this argument keeps coming up in fandom is that people keep trying to claim that Arya's story is similar to Brienne's, in that she IS ugly according to society's standards and that's ok! which isn't true, Arya is canonically a pretty kid with a dirty face and unbrushed hair. that's all it is. so if we could just accept that, there'd be no excuse for the insistence that this is an important aspect of Arya's story.

because it isn't. like im sorry but the ugly duckling means nothing when there are plenty of people who don't grow up to be swans. they get called ugly as children, and they get called ugly as adults. look at Brienne: she has suffered far, far worse prejudice as a result of her appearance in childhood, and she doesn't get the catharsis of growing up pretty to show them all how wrong they were. Brienne has been treated like a fucking monster for how she looks, all of her life. this is a character for whom her appearance IS actually an important theme, and it will be meaningful to see her realise it's a strength, and find love etc. I'm sorry but Arya growing up to be beautiful doesn't mean shit to me lol. I fully accept it's canon, but it is not a meaningful story beat, in a story with people like Tyrion, Brienne and Sam. Arya's story has so many more fascinating themes about identity, trauma, justice, war, friendship and family. if Arya was pretty all along, why should I care?

[fromtheseventhhell]

They way people always want to claim that Ned treated Arya better to make it seem like Sansa was mistreated but don't ever want to discuss the difference in how Catelyn treated Sansa and Arya is so transparent.

We get it you think that Ned "indulging" Arya (which even that was to a certain extent because he still had expectations of her) was a bad thing because you view her behavior as inappropriate and think that Catelyn reprimanding her and unfairly comparing her to Sansa to the point that she has lasting self-esteem issues was deserved.

[atopvisenyashill]

there’s a few potential sansa romantic endgames that i think have some textual basis and i think all of them come with a lot of issues wrt sansa being able to publically claim these relationships which is why i think sansa will say her children are “fathered by a wolf” because regardless of Who she’s with or even the legality of it, she’s going to be actively concealing their identity AND YET she needs to have children.

i think especially that even though arya’s love life is guaranteed to be less complicated, sansa will feel obligated to take this “burden” of ensuring their line onto herself; she wants arya to have the freedom to go where she pleases, be with who she pleases, and follow her passions and that is not easy to do if everyone is expecting you to come home and start popping out kids. I consider them a sort of reflection of ned and lyanna in this way in that sansa, second born and not meant to rule, uses her newfound power to let the wild, youngest girl (but not youngest child) in the family follow her passions wherever they may take her.

this is all kind of weird with the nixed time jump but considering that george has talked about writing stories from arya’s pov about her adventures, I think it’s going to be fairly important in story regardless of their ages that arya will attempt to offer to stay home and marry and have children as a way of helping to protect sansa’s very shaky claim on winterfell but that sansa encourages arya to do whatever she wants. to travel, to help shepherd the boatloads of refugees from the various wars to wherever they want to call home, to settle displaced northerners in other parts of westeros as well, to get involved in the lives of the people arya is helping and agree to help them liberate their own homes by using her skills (crucial here that arya is A leader but not the SOLE leader), or to go out into the woods and be a secret not-quite-an-outlaw (bc sansa isn’t outlawing anything that could hurt arya’s lil crusades, probably is helping bankroll arya) to bring justice to the smallfolk, like whatever it is arya wants to do with her life, the point is that she offers to give it up and sansa refuses to take the offer.

and then we have the idea that her kids are fathered by a wolf. not elizabeth-ing herself here exactly because she’s having children but never publicly acknowledging a father or a husband or even a lover.

i think the candidates most likely are jon snow and theon, with both brienne and podrick as like “i’m not saying he’s gonna do it but i am saying they make a lot of sense narratively” and aegon vi as a huge long shot but still undeniable contender. if briensa does go canon everyone owes me five bucks each tho. i think the options other people float are not just wildly unserious they also clearly don’t think sansa will be The Ruling Lady Of Winterfell, but some much more minor or less emotionally resonant title and i just do not vibe with that shit at all. harry the heir, sandor, sweetrobin, tyrion, littlefucker, like never mind sansa never once showing any real interest in these guys and NONE of these dudes being satisfied by the idea of being her secret husband, if sansa says to arya “yeah i’m marrying tyrion” arya is going “blink twice if you’re being held hostage and you need me to kill him” but it’s too late because jon snow is already unsheathing longclaw and bran is attacking with every raven in winterfell. it’s not fucking happening and imo it’s unserious to pretend like it could happen in canon. (and if it DOES happen in canon you will find me rocking up to george’s house in jersey and demanding to know why he’s so weird about teenage girls). i think margaery is a huge long shot here (and not just bc it would make them both canonically on screen gay) because i don’t think she’s gonna live to the ending, and jeyne poole is too traumatized at this point in time for me to feel confident in putting her in the same category as brienne and pod.

(theon’s trauma is WHY i think he’s still a contender - post reek theon is going to struggle a lot with figuring out where he’s supposed to be, who he’s supposed to be, and who he can trust as he puts himself back together, and that lends itself nicely to the idea of a secret husband/lover imo. once again, we are talking extreme trauma bonding here - that’s just the only way i see sansa’s romances going).

if you’re asking “who do you think arya is winding up with” it’s gendry. i don’t doubt that there were some plans for edric dayne, arya, and gendry but i think gendry was always going to be her great love here, that she’s always going to turn down the idea of marriage to him but gendry doesn’t care so long as they are still together. there’s a neon blinking sign over gendry’s head that says “endgame material” and i think it’s unserious to pretend it’s not there too!!

[alaynerhinestone]

SIGHING the age difference between margaery and sansa is p big for teenagers! margaery is closer to jon and robb's age than sansa's. margaery and her family actively pursued an interest in elevating her to queen from at least the first book if not longer, tywin was actively trying to arrange a marriage between cersei and rhaegar before the maggy scene, which takes place when cersei was younger than sansa is at the beginning of the series. ned and catelyn had barely discussed sansa's options before joffrey shows up; they might have thought of it later or they might have chosen someone else. the wealthy southern houses are ambitious, but starks rarely send their daughters south to marry. sansa has talent and big dreams, and cat would at least think to take that into account. likely cat was expecting to marry her into another great house, but we know cat wanted her kids to be happy?? and be children?? for as long as they can. she was surprised and a little upset that robb was wearing live steel, even tho he's nearly an adult by westerosi standards and competent enough to manage winterfell when she understandably neglects her duties while bran is in his coma.

this is not a bad thing!! this is reasonable!! and cat did teach sansa how to be a lady the same way ned taught robb and jon to be a lord, through example and demonstration. all highborn girls have lessons with a septa, not least to occupy them while the boys are practicing hitting each other with swords. sansa and arya were also given lessons with maester luwin, which is a significant advantage that not all highborn girls get. and honestly this solid foundation gave sansa and arya the tools they needed to survive thus far!!

catelyn was expecting sansa (and arya!) to continue her education at court, under the supervision of ned and with the help of septa mordane. and cersei did try to educate her in her own terrible way––catelyn could not have known how incompetent cersei was (honestly cersei had robert killed in an incredibly sophisticated way that would still be hard to prove in real court, she is a lot more together in the first book). ned resolved to end the betrothal as soon as he saw what joffrey was like, he definitely believed revealing joffrey's parentage would make this easy.

margaery came to king's landing with an army at her back, knowing there was a possibility, however slim, of the lannisters rejecting an alliance. she knew she was entering a city her family had been starving out for months!! she brought food!!! she was prepared. she knew exactly what she was getting into!! loras had almost definitely been feeding the tyrells information about the court for years, if only so they'd know what was going on lol.

the tyrells are absolutely the lannisters' foils, I think that's pretty clear? margaery is the political powerhouse cersei wants to be, and she has the support and respect cersei craves. loras is the new Best Tourney Knight who mostly lives up to the ideals jaime strives for without really trying, and his relationship actually is unfairly discriminated against instead of just creepy (affectionate). willas is the scholarly heir trusted absolutely, like his claim is so rock solid he is just left with the castle, and he has a more 'socially acceptable' disability (in tyrion's mind especially!). like they are both engaged to sansa even. and olenna is who tywin thinks he is, except she also has the power of being a reasonable adult who would prefer that people (not joffrey) didn't get hurt. then garlan is just a good guy, all the lannisters wish they had a garlan

for the record, also, sansa tried to 'talk up' joffrey because she was terrified. she does not like anything about joffrey at this point and is desperately trying to think of things to say that won't get her killed?? what olenna and margaery do so well, and what is indicative of their strength as politicians and the power of being nice to people, is put sansa at ease enough that she's willing to tell them the truth. like yes sansa was fully deluding herself at one point, accepting joffrey's apology for lady's death, but she starts to hate him as soon as he has ned arrested (and their household killed??). how many of us can say we have not gone a little delusional over a crush in middle school regardless of what our parents taught us. lmao.

cat and ned may not have prepared sansa to be queen but they are the reason alayne is still kind, and that is why she inspires the kind of loyalty littlefinger can't, which will prove to be her greatest weapon.

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

Not to demonize Cat but the woman literally said Arya was a trial and she wanted her to be like Sansa; she admired Edmure’s efforts to look after his people but at the same time she saw them as useless mouths to feed; she wanted 14 year old Jon out of his own home in Winterfell. How is that supposed to be similar to him? Same with Sansa being Ned 2.0 just because she’s in the Vale. She doesn’t recall any of his lessons like his other kids do. He is a man who lived and died for his family and was overall well liked by his people. He carried Lyanna’s secret to his grave. Sansa snitched on her family (bitterly regretting it) because she was in love with the little psycho who tried to murder her sister and she barely had any contact with the smallfolk. The math doesn’t add up. Just reads like a Jon/sa fetich of NedCat 2.0, same people who insist Jon longs for Cat’s love and approval since he has oedipus complex or whatever. But one can not erase canon and none of the women Jon felt attracted to had anything to do with Cat. They need milk of the copey.

Yes, I agree with you.

Comparing Catelyn saying that Arya was "a trial" while the latter was missing to Jon gifting Arya the Needle, it's clear that those two characters view Arya's behavior differently.

Arya herself was doubting that her mother would want her ( which mind you wasn't true, Catelyn wanted both her daughters back. But it says a lot about the impression she had given to her child through her behavior). Meanwhile, she was certain that Jon would want her even if no one else would. Jon's acceptance is wholeheartedly, he doesn't criticize Arya's parts their society considers unwomanly ( and in fact, all the girls he finds attractive share those traits of hers).

Here is the thoughts of Catelyn when her brother gives shelter to innocent people in Riverlands war zone:

Only my sweet brother would crowd all these useless mouths into a castle that might soon be under siege.

ACOK - Catelyn I

Jon Snow in ADWD is doing exactly what Catelyn is criticizing her brother for, he gives shelter to "useless mouths" ( aka all the Wildings that can't contribute to the fight against the Others).

Jon's worldview, beliefs and behavior is so different from Catelyn's that it's laughable to claim that "he's Catelyn with Ned/Lyanna's characteristics". Do they have a couple of things/ traits in common? Surely, but so does almost any pair of pov characters. That doesn't mean all of them are copies of each other.

Moving to Sansa, I disagree with the fandom's notion that she's Ned 2.0. As you said, she doesn't recall his lessons like his other children do. That's not to condemn her because Ned taught mainly the boys and Catelyn was responsible for the girls ' education ( Arya is the exception here because we know that she liked to follow her father and see him performing his duties as the Castle's Lord).

And then there is the scene where Sansa tells Cersei her father's plan. Again, I'm not gonna codemn a 11 years old for making a silly decision but considering that a major theme in Ned's story is that he never revealed his sister's secret, preferring to soil his honor in order to protect it I fail to see the similarities between father and daughter in terms of personal values and priorities.

As I often say, Sansa was way closer to her mother than she ever was to her father and she shares some core beliefs with her ( plus her narrative comparison to Cat is important due to the Littlefinger obsession with both of them). So if the fans want to link Sansa to any of her parents, Catelyn the correct choice imo.

On a side note, I'm sure that you probably meant no harm but I don't like the word "psycho" to describe awful characters. Joffrey was a little shit but that was because he was spoiled by his mother and neglected by his father. He didn't have any psychosis. Mental illnesses affect real people and that's why I don't like seeing them being used as slurs.

[jackoshadows]

The amount of big names in the fandom immediately discarding the strong possibility of Jon becoming king is baffling to me. They claim that Jon won’t have time for disputing over a title because he’ll be busy fighting against the Others and when duty calls he’ll choose to fight the Great War instead of ruling and that’s his fate. I ask: who the hell is more prepared to fight a war than a king? Who’s better at managing everything than the ultimate authority? That’s why it sounds so silly to me. Specially when tempered with “he loves his siblings, that conflict was solved, that’s why he’ll give up on Robb’s will”. Yeah, sure, George set that all up just for Jon to say “nope, I’m good”. That’s not how a complex story like ASOIAF works. Controversial but I have the feeling that they only say that as an excuse to shove Jon aside so S4ns4 can be queen even though she lacks half of the experience Jon has as a ruler. When they know they’re stretching it too far, they’ll say “why can’t all the Starks rule together like a sweet loving family???” so S4ns4 won’t be excluded and they can look reasonable and less awful in the eyes of the fandom for shoving Jon aside for S4ns4’s sake, like they used to do to Bran the Eternal Tree and Arya the Eternal Sailor. I personally can’t wait for Arya to crown him.

Exactly!! This is pretty much it.

And also, I would like to point out that these bnfs are also big Stannis fans! That's what so hypocritical and ridiculous about this. Jon's support for Stannis is entirely predicated on the acknowledgement that Stannis has the power of a king and therefore the ability to unite people, gather an army and make important decisions for the good of the realm. And Stannis knows about the threat from beyond the Wall and is still engaged in battle and politicking south of the Wall.

If that is okay for Stannis to be king, why does the same not apply to Jon with the only thing standing in his way being his bastardy?  Unless they think that being a bastard disqualifies him in some way that it does not for Stannis.

Also, the implication that the only reason Sansa would oppose a King Jon is because of sexism is 🤣🤣🤣. That’s right, book Sansa who has never, not once, pondered on the inherent sexism of Westerosi patriarchal ideals will be opposed to king Jon on the basis of it being sexist and not because Jon is a bastard. Classism and discrimination against bastards is totally okay - Jon should be precluded from power because of his bastardy. But sexism preventing a younger and less experienced Sansa from getting it over Jon? Oh no, how unfair 😱.

Jon is the oldest, most experienced of Ned’s children (the only one who can rule without a regent) but if he gets rulership in the North over Sansa, who does not know the first thing about what is happening all over the North - it must be the sexism that Sansa is outraged about, nothing else right? 🤣 The same Sansa who in the most recent book thought that because Lothor Brune’s birth was very low he would be a good fit for a bastard girl like Mya Stone....

And then there's the fact that they think these characters don't evolve and change at all over 5 books! The mind truly boggles. So 9 year old Arya at the beginning of AGoT going all 'eww boys!' and telling her father that she will never marry and have children apparently means that's permanent! And this is in a book series that liberally uses a rule of three, meaning, characters end up making different choices the third time.

Jon Snow himself is a perfect example of this:

Forgive me, Father. Robb, Arya, Bran. Forgive me, I cannot help you. He has the truth of it. This is my place. ” Jon Snow, AGoT

You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he’d left Jon’s mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night’s Watch - Jon Snow, ASoS

I want my bride back … I want my bride back … “I think we had best change the plan,” Jon Snow said. If this is oathbreaking, the crime is mine and mine alone - Jon Snow, ADwD

And there is also a deliberate ignorance of the chapter where Jon does make his decision to refuse Stannis. I have already written plenty on this - the reason Jon refuses Stannis’ offer to be legitimized as Lord of Winterfell is because the King wanted him to convert to the Lord of Light and burn down the Winterfell Godswood. Ghost’s timely appearance with his white fur and red eyes reminds Jon of the Weirwoods, that Ghost himself is a gift from the Old Gods and of his sworn oaths in front of the Godswood.

When Jon later brokers the marriage between Sigorn and Alys, their wedding is a mix of two cultures and religions - that of the Lord of Light and the Old Gods. Because unlike Jon Snow, Sigorn the magnar of the Thenns has no issue converting to the Lord of Light, as far as we know.

There is a clear difference between Stannis offering Jon Snow Winterfell and Robb Stark doing it. The emotional weight behind Robb doing it is simply immense for GRRM to not tackle that in Jon Snow’s POV

That morning he called it first. “I’m Lord of Winterfell!” he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, “You can’t be Lord of Winterfell, you’re bastard-born. My lady mother says you can’t ever be the Lord of Winterfell.” - Jon, ASoS

“Mother.” There was a sharpness in Robb’s tone. “You forget. My father had four sons.”

“Jon’s more a Stark than some lordlings from the Vale who have never so much as set eyes on Winterfell.”

Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North.” - Catelyn, ASoS

There’s every chance that we get a rule of three scenario here as well. I can foresee for instance :

1. Jon refusing Stannis offer

2. Jon’s emotional upheaval with Robb’s decree and wanting to accept it for protecting the realm with the power of a king,  but conflicted because there are some Northern houses supporting Rickon Stark and his baby brother is the rightful heir

3. Arya Stark turns up with Robb’s crown, names him king and we get Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell and KITN.

And yes, for all asoiaf fans proclaim that the books are complex tomes unlike traditional high fantasy and subvert tropes and all that, it’s ridiculous that they box these characters into specific roles like the show did.

The TV show did it simply because it’s an adaptation which combined plots and characters for budget reasons and because D&D are simply bad writers. So, if Jon Snow was doing everything his book version was on the show, what would they do with Sophie Turner considering they binned the Vale plot for not having more book material? They can’t ask Turner to sit out seasons. So they take away from book Jon’s plot and skillsets, and hand it over to show Sansa. Same with Arya and Bran. They put these characters into boxes: Arya: Assassin, Bran:3ER, Jon: Military man: Sansa: politician.

However, that’s not how it is in the books at all. If one has read these 5 books, imagine how ridiculous it would be for book Jon Snow to take any kind of advice from the 13 year old book Sansa we last see in the Vale!!

It was already ridiculous on the show because of how badly they shoved Sansa into Jon’s plot. It was not enough that show Sansa was the ‘politician’, she also is suddenly a military expert and demands that Jon ask her advise on offensive battle techniques, instructs northern armorers on the best way to make armor and lectures Yohn Royce on the strategic value of castles as a first line of defense!!

It’s doubly nonsensical in the books. Just like most medieval and feudal European monarchs (from whom GRRM has borrowed) had an education that was as well rounded as possible, so too are the noble rulers and leaders of Westeros and Essos. Jon, Arya, Bran, Dany and Tyrion all have political arcs with military aspects. Dany, Tyrion and Jon have participated in military defensive and offensive battles. They have ruled and administered over city states and institutions. They have made trade deals and negotiated political alliances. They have used both hard power and soft power in their dealings with allies and enemies. Arya’s arc has intersected with politics - both southern and northern - since she left for KL. Bran had an entire arc as defacto Lord/Prince of Winterfell in Robb’s absence.

Jon, Dany and Tyrion are competent leaders in their own right in all aspects and if Bran, Rickon or Arya do need an adviser or a regent because of their age then that regent will be an older, experienced person - ex. Davos. Not the least qualified 13 year old!!

[hello-nichya-here]

Do you think the Jonrya endgame was replaced with a Jonsa political marriage? I know Jon will eventually be with Dany, but I can't really see the books ending with them together

No, and that has nothing to do with the possibility of Jon ending up married to Dany.

During some of her moments of sorrow, Sansa was shown to truly believe that no one would ever marry her for love, only for her claim - which just screams that Martin is planning to have her end up marrying for love against all odds - and as I've said before, there's zero chance of a genuine Jonsa romance because these two are simply not each other's type at all.

When Jon was offered a wife by Stannis (in a marriage that would have brought political advantages to both of them), he only considered accepting it because he genuinely liked Val. Politics usually only interest Jon when it comes to protecting innocent people, and even his hidden desire of being Lord of Winterfell has more to do with wanting to feel like he really is a Stark, that he belongs there, that he is not less than his siblings just because he is a bastard.

And as for the supposed political gain they'd have by marrying each other... would that really exist? Jon might be a bastard (as far as we know) but he is a Stark in all but name, and the constant theme in the story is "The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives." Winterfell belongs to the Starks and they are still very much loved in the North.

All the surviving Starks will go back to their home and work together to protect each other. They don't need to marry one another to "share" Winterfell. They all belonf there.

As for the Iron Throne and the Game Of Thrones itself? They don't care about that, they don't want to be the most powerful family, they just want enough power to be safe - which Winterfell could grant them once the war was over. They trust the people of the North (who clearly like the Starks and want them back), and they have shown no inclination to see non-relatives as inferior and thus unworthy of marrying them, so there'd be no Starks obsessing over "keeping the bloodline pure" or how "everyone who isn't us is an enemy", Targaryen/Lannister style.

But what if to end the war they needed to win the Iron Throne? In that case they'd need to either fight for it or one of them would need to marry someone who is not a Stark. They wouldn't need an incestuous marriage to keep all the power to themselves, just powerfull allies and a decent army - ONE of them becoming royalty is more than enough to assure that.

Say Jon and Sansa were the only Starks left and he becomes king of Westeros. Sansa doesn't need to marry him to be sure she is safe, he can just say that Winterfell is hers (which would be true) and have enough trusted men around to protect her. He'd be king, so his word would be the law, and as his sister and the daughter of Ned Stark Sansa would already be more than important enough to be fully safe as Lady of Winterfell. She doesn't need to be queen. And obviously the same would apply to Jon if she were to become queen.

A "political" Jonsa marriage is impossible because they'd gain exactly zero power by marrying each other, and the idea of a romance between them is laughable. It doesn't matter how you look at it, Jonsa won't be a thing.

If you want know why I think they’d never fall in love with each other, read this post:

https://www.tumblr.com/blog/view/hello-nichya-here/680702347282989057?source=share

[reginarubie]

Hey have a couple for the ship thoughts questions:

Sansa and margs

Sansa and Dan

Jon and Dan

Dan and missandie

Jon's dad and mom ( for some reason I'm blanking on their names, all I can remember is R+l=j)

Ned and cat

Ned and asha dayne ( the rumoured lady that Ned loves ad beded but settled for cat)

Jamie and cers

Jemie and Brienne

Tyrion and tysha?? The one that truly loved him but he believed his family and treated her like... left her

-

Merlin and Arthur

Arthur and Morgan

Arthur and Gwen

Gwen and Merlin

gwen and that knight

steve Harrington and Nancy wheeler

Nancy wheeler and Jonathan

El and Mike

El and will

Will and Mike

nancy and Robin

Crissy and Eddie

Robin and Steve

Joyce and jim

Hi anon!,

For the series send me ships and I'll give my brutally honest opinion:

part I

part II

Let's go ahead and since in your ask you've divided it by fandoms let's do the same in my reply! A little premise, this doesn't meant to offend in any way the shippers of any of the ships I will be brutally honest about.

Ship what you wanna ship and enjoy what you wanna enjoy. This is just my opinion on why I like or not these ships.

ASOIAF

SANSA AND MARGAERY

To be brutally honest I don't hate it outside of canon.

In canon even though it can be considered one of the purest relationships Sansa lives (and it's because it's depicted by her POV) I really hope it never happens in any circumstances.

Albeit growing fond of Sansa we can't forget that Margaery is a manipulator who is doing the dirty job by gaining Sansa's friendship and loyalty to further forward her family's ambition and tho it's an ugly game the one they are playing, and as she is herself says in show!verse, because I can't recall that happening in book!verse at all, “women in our position should make the best of their circumstances” it makes the way Sansa honestly feels about her and their friendship sound even more like a fraud.

Sansa considers Margaery her truest friend in Kings Landing after Jeyne is taken away from her, and thinks that her presence and unfailing kindness changed everything for her. Because Margaery made her feel appreciated and loved and wanted, completely opposite as how Sansa has been treated as a pariah.

And all the while Margaery has been instead manipulating her to get through her, the claim to Winterfell and the North for her family at which point with a queen on the throne and a Warden of the North in the family, their riches and being the granary of the 7K, the Tyrells would have become virtually unstoppable.

I don't doubt Margaery grew fond of Sansa (what's not to grow fond of, of a girl who puts in jeopardy her life to tell you the truth, a truth you already know, about the king you're supposed to marry only so that you are spared the abuse she suffered?) as did Garlan who took the time to comfort her at her marriage feast.

Still, I feel like Margaery was succeeding in what Littlefinger has been trying to do all along. Using the right key she was managing to gain Sansa's loyalty and a Stark loyalty is a powerful thing (especially with the might of the North at their back).

It makes every moment shown between them in the show or in the book sound even worse and sour in my mouth.

Tbh Sansa is going to realize exactly how easily the Tyrells framed her for Joff's murder, uncaring if that threw her even further in the mouth of the lions (for however knowing of it Marg was). She'll probably always think fondly of Margaery for the kindness she has shown her, because that is who Sansa is, but I doubt she's ever going to trust her implicitly like she did in KL ever again in canon.

Sansa is afraid she's never going to be loved in any capacity beyond what her claim means to the people around her, it's why, I believe she's going to appreciate Jon all the more in canon because boy is out there defending her claim only because it's hers , no matter which last name she sports, going against his own ambition (which he himself describes as hunger) to instead defend her.

So... on a scale 5/10 in canon because of all manipulation going on. Outside of canon I am all for supporting relationships and as far as I am aware that is the nature of their ship outside of canon so: good for them!

By Dan I'm going to assume you mean Daenerys. So let's go ahead.

SANSA AND DAENERYS

Okay, time to be brutally honest here.

Had Daenerys be a male, Sansa would've been meant for her. It's why the whole Jon/Sansa and Young Griff/Sansa make historic sense.

Sansa is based off several historical figures, but mostly she's based off Elizabeth of York and Elizabeth Tudor.

The heir to the dynasty which has been overthrown returning with the might of three dragons, and the girl (the eldest surviving child) who is the heir apparent to another great family/dynasty with two brothers presumed dead, the daughter by a lord beloved by the kingdom and beloved she herself. Soft and feminine, but with a will of steel. With a dubious relationship with her uncle (LF is her uncle by marriage).

It makes historic sense.

But in canon GRRM has gone with a different twist of this story and has created two Elizabeth's. Sansa and Arianne. I am a firm believer that Young Griff might really be Elia's son, and I think a marriage alliance with the Martells through Arianne would make sense, tho I think in the end Arianne is going to end up with Daemon Sand (a bastard with a valyrian name, would you look at that?). Kind of like Jon, who I refuse to believe might be considered trueborn, because in the show they might have given him several part of Young Griff's plot in the books and Sansa.

Also I believe that both the North and Dorne are going to go free (the swords of the northerners and the dornish are the only ones that are not in the Iron throne, which is symbolic and might mean they will break off the 7K and be the queen/princess guiding their people and beloved by them), beyond their romances.

To top of that, in canon, Martin has taken every care in the world to make Sansa and Daenerys as similar as he can, whilst making them completely different and setting them up to become moral and political rivals. He made Daenerys to be Cleopatra and Sansa to be her Octavian.

I actually wrote an entire post based mostly on show canon, but it also applies to book canon (even more actually) in which I give clues as to why they've been set up from the beginning to become political and moral rivals (might actually upgrade that one with visual clues and textual clues in the book at one point). You can find it here.

I think that the greatest part of Daenerys tragedy is that hers is the story of how an abused and how the trauma she endured has turned her to what she is slowly becoming. Had she had a better example to learn of, someone to look up to that might teach her the right ways she might have turned completely different. Had she known the real love of her family, she might have turned out differently. Had she had been able to get the help she needed to overcome her trauma and the coping mechanisms she had to use to survive, she might have turned out completely differently. But as it is, it didn't happen and that's the root of her tragedy.

And I think that that is also what differentiates her from Sansa. She's not a bad girl to start off, just like Sansa isn't...both suffer terrible abuse and survive but they have had different examples in their life and when Sansa knows plenty well the difference between love and fear, in Daenerys' journey they often overlap, which makes them fundamentally different in their core and ends up pitting them against one another.

So in canon -10/10; outside of canon, it can be very fun to write and read.

[I myself have a couple of fics about them, tho I've not dedicated near enough time to them as I should've. One is a twisted version of Robin Hood with Daenerys as Robin Hood and Sansa as lady Marian, and another is a modern AU.]

JON AND DAENERYS

In canon (both show!verse and book!verse) I believe that if it happens it's going to be about Jon pulling a 007 on us all, like he already did with Ygritte and the wildlings. It makes textual sense because again, Martin has taken all the care in the world to ensure that Jon and Daenerys are at the opposite side of the spectrum when it comes to rule.

Also, the answer to Jon's prayers and dreams is Sansa, not Daenerys. So a bit like the Jon/Arya ship it would take away everything he wants from him to ship him with Daenerys and at the same time Jon is not Daenerys type at all.

As I've already said and actually spoke about in another meta, in Daenerys' life love/power/fear overlap and her type is the rogue, dangerous men capable of doing anything, even killing without any remorse (Drogo and Daario).

BookJon is several time more interesting than showJon, he's petty and clever and politically astute (I mean, boy managed to get the Iron bank to give the Watch a loan whilst drunk and seventeen; and he swapped two children, possibly putting them both in peril in a desperate attempt to save them from an horrific death) also I think, after all he did to save Mance's son was to make sure neither baby could be sacrificed at Melisandre's call; when he gets whiff of Stannis sacrificing Shireen at Melisandre's counsel (or doing so because spurned by all of Melisandre talks about kingsblood) he is going to trust Daenerys even less, especially if what has been shown in the show (her meeting Kinvara and having the red priestess starting to claim she is the princess who was promised and Melisandre being in Dragonstone when Jon gets there or wherever they will have that encounter) happens in the books as well. Which I believe it might, since dragons are fire made flesh and the red priests and priestess think that fires washes all sins and terrors away.

So, beyond Jon loosing everything he ever wished for, it would go against Jon's own character ever falling in love with her, but it would be completely in character for him to go ninja undercover on her and do whatever it takes to get the dragons to defend Winterfell, the North and his family. What more, Jon is by now, bleeding out dead in the snows of Castle Black and as per my theory about resurrected characters in asoiaf (on which I am working on to post, I promise, to anyone still waiting for it) Jon died a Stark defender, that is the core of his identity and that is what he'll be in his most pure form when he returns to life, especially after being in Ghost for so long.

Also, the way they depicted in the showverse might actually be pretty telling of what may happen in book canon and that's terrible.

Also, not only would Jon loose everything he ever wanted, but the way I've seen this ship depicted (not that I've given it way too much attention beyond what I've written for them in historical AU) it always kind of makes Jon blend in the background and Daenerys get everything she wants sometimes even stepping on what Jon cares for, which is what they gave us in show canon. To Jon the most important part of his identity are the Starks. He is the youngest child biologically speaking, but he is one of the big brothers of House Stark, and that is his core. He died because he wanted to break millennia of neutrality of the Watch to save his sister. And often this ship ends up suppressing this side of Jon.

So -5/10 both in show canon and book canon.

DAENERYS AND MISSANDEI

I'll go ahead and assume you meant only show verse, because we've got more than enough of Daenerys with Irri in the books to be sick with it, and with the way Daenerys stops it not because Irri doesn't enjoy it but because her not enjoying it was blatant enough that her kisses tasted of duty; she didn't stop because she felt like it was wrong to use another human being that way, but merely because she herself did not enjoy being kissed as if it was a duty.

Show verse Daenerys and Missandei had that gal-to-gal friendship depicted with Daenerys even braiding Missandei's hair, which I don't think ever happened in the books, tho I may be wrong. And Missandei is the only one Daenerys goes back for to KL, even tho she lost a number of other allies (The Sand Snakes and Yara Greyjoy), so I can see why some people may find it appealing to their tastes for the way the show depicted it, plus they're both hot and determined young women.

Why I think it shouldn't be applied in the books? It'd make it essentially grooming on D part.

In the books to begin with Missandei is a child, younger than Daenerys whom Daenerys says she wants to protect, whom she takes into her service after buying her from the masters in Astapor and whilst (besides the slaves at the end of Dany X in AGOT) Missandei is the only other former slave Daenerys frees but she does so with the intention of gaining her loyalty long enough to gather information from her about the Unsullied and how to move once she had bought them. Which subsenquentially spurns her to make them ever loyal only to her, slaves in all, save in name, because she never truly frees them, what she does it overlap the concept of freedom with that of dracarys and being the dragon's, all with the scourge still in hand.

So, I can see some of the appeal in show verse and it's pretty wholesome as far as Daenerys' relationships go in being depicted in the show 6/10

RHAEGAR AND LYANNA

Talk about another man grooming a child into a relationship. Okay, I'll hold off the gun because we aren't given too much context here, but what we've got is that Rhaegar was a twenty-four years old man with wife and children, obsessed with a prophecy who essentially eloped with a girl of barely fourteen years of age.

Now whilst such an age difference wouldn't have been the greatest possible in that historical context what makes it worse is that Lyanna was a highly dedicated to her family and romantic young lady and that Rhaegar was already married and with two kids.

What happened was that either he abducted her (like Robert claimed) or persuaded her to elope with him (like the show would suggest). Possibly he married her in some kind of secret marriage (which would defeat the point of not causing a fucking war and would bastardize his children, which it's hinted that it's not what he wanted, since he believed Aegon, his son by Elia, to be the Prince who was promised) or not, but then he sired a child from her, didn't account for his crime and let his father execute his wife/lover's father and brother thus provoking a war and alienating his wife/lover from her family. He then took her and secluded her in a fucking tower in Dorne (the homeland of his left behind wife just to be even more of a jerk) not even once trying to amend the problems he had caused.

What we know of Lyanna as per reverse, is that she was fiercely loyal to her House and loved her father and brothers (the only line we know by her was “That is my father's bannerman you are kicking!” when she defended Howland Reed at Harrenhal and she then entered the tourney secretly to avenge him) and we have to believe that that same girl would just accept her husband/lover secluded her in Dorne and fought against her family and accept her father and brother had been brutally killed?

Not bloody likely.

What I think more likely is that Rhaegar might have taken a fancy to Lyanna because of her youth and her determination, for she might have reminded him of Visenya's temperament and since he wanted to recreate the whole Aegon and his sisters, with Elia unable possibly to carry more children he decided Lyanna would do for a mother, endangering a girl of fourteen whom may have been on her first cycles.

He might have then seduced her, which most handsome man of the 7K, a prince and basically fancying her for what other suitors may find disgraceful? Tho, we'd have to assume Lyanna didn't care that he had other children, tho she cared that Robert had sired a bastard girl before marriage, which again doesn't make any sense. But let's say Lyanna was young and easily seduced by such a man.

He very clearly then actually abduct her and seclude her in a tower whilst pregnant, alone and away from her family, warring in her and her father's name.

It appears to me that the only good thing coming from that particular ship was Jon. And believe me, Jon is not going to take well his parentage, even if he ended up being trueborn, because he prides himself of being Eddard Stark's son tho lowborn, I don't think the same might be said for Rhaegar.

-1000/10 we respect no jerk in this household and Rhaegar left his wife and children behind unprotected (his daughter died screaming for her dad, under whose bed she had hid... the same dad who left her behind to groom a girl barely older than her), and secluded a fourteen year old girl whom he had gotten pregnant, alone in a tower in Dorne to fight a war he lost, all for the sake of a damn prophecy. The jerkometer hits the stars with him. He can choke for the way he treated both Elia and Lyanna and his children.

Good thing he sons have taken after their mothers and the men who raised them more than him.

NED AND CAT

10000/10 would recommend. And this is my shipper heart speaking.

Tbh though they are one of the most wholesome and truest, healthiest relationship in all of asoiaf, even with the matter of Jon's parentage to settle between them, they loved each other. They learned to love each other and build their family, a family they died to protect. Trusted and respected each other.

I mean Neddie boy turned from lethal, dangerous direwolf to tail-wagging puppy the moment he saw his wife in KL, and noticed she had been attacked by the way she held her hands, that's the degree of attentiveness we want in a man, okay?

Cat last thought was the fact that Ned loved her hair and that she didn't want it ruined even in death. Ned was her rock, to the point that even dead he was her support system.

Ned defended her by justifying her actions in taking Tyrion in custody as if commanded by him and Ned-I-know-better-than-that-oaf-of-my-best-friend-the-king, idealistic Ned Stark listened to his wife when she told him to trust LF. Dumb move, but still it gives you the degree at which they trusted and relied on each other.

With their fragilities and flaws they are one of my most beloved ships in asoiaf.

NED AND ASHARA DAYNE

We know next to nothing to this, saved that people gossiped about it, and about the fact that Ashara might have been Jon's mother. May it be that it happened, may it be that it didn't.

I think that even if it did it was heartbreaking, sad and bittersweet.

I am sure that if Martin were to give us more info, or write about it it'd be pretty real and cutting in its depiction/mirroring of the time and context of asoiaf.

So, on trust I give it 7.5/10.

JAIME AND CERSEI

For how it's written like this fated, hateful, passionate and destroying relationship I have to tap my hat to GRRM and give it a 8/10 on the manner of how much I like the way it was written...meh. I think it's pretty interesting and that it is the root of much of the problems Jaime and Cersei actually face.

In a scale of how much I enjoy it, tho, I'd give it a 4/10, BUT with the theme of rape not withstanding which would crush it down at -1000/10.

Sorry I am more for healthy, supporting relationships, as much as possible in every fiction and context. But if it's someone else's cup of tea, good for them.

JAIME AND BRIENNE

Reverse Beauty and the Beast story, in which the one who looks like a beauty is a beast and the one who looks beastly is a beauty. Pretty interesting to read, also because I think its root is that Jaime sees bits of the himself he sacrificed for his father and the people of KL in Brienne's vision of the world.

Still...read again the whole bath scene and consider it closely (I did a step-by-step with Tyrion and Sansa wedding night here) is it really worth being shipped?

In some contexts it doesn't bother me much...in canon I think it's going to be heartbreaking for Brienne.

3/10 I'm giving it a 3 merely because despite sexualizing her internally during the bath scene, Jaime doesn't actually act on that, and returns to save her because he has dreamt of her and because the sodding idiot is so foolish he has followed her in the Riverlands like she was his guide-light. And in other context could be pleasing to read about.

TYRION AND TYSHA

I have actually written a series of several metas about it, you can find the first installment here, the others will be linked at the end. Anyway, I honestly hope Tyrion never finds her.

Since departing KL his whole mantra has been searching for Tysha and at every stop they make, even in a brothel where he rapes a young girl who looks like Sansa, he asks after her and asks himself “where do whores go?” which is what Tywin told him.

I hope he never finds her, because Tysha was no whore, no matter what they did to her. They were the whores in the equation, so I dearly hope he never finds her, because Tysha was not a whore to begin with. Tho, I'd really enjoy her freezing him out once he returns to her with that arrogant brazenness he has, which will lead him to realize he is exactly like the father he hated so much.

100/10 Tysha living off her life peacefully and freezing Tyrion out if he ever finds her.

-1000/10 their ship. I hope Tyrion ends up realizing he never found Tysha because he searched the wrong places all along.

And that was it for asoiaf. Let's step in the next one, Merlin!

MERLIN

So, I am assuming we are speaking of Merlin the tv series and not the legend, because then it'd get very messy, albeit interesting.

MERLIN AND ARTHUR

Just kiss already.

1000/10 whatever way we wanna see it, romantically as a friendship or simply two people caring for each other, the chemistry was off charts for starters (like c'mon “do you walk on your knees?” “No” “Let me help you” and all the “I could take you apart with one blow” “I could take you apart with less than that”...I mean and all in the first minutes of the pilot?) and it was just that pure.

Arthur thinking Merlin was the bravest man he knew. Braver than his father (who he idolized for a long time) braver than himself and braver than all the knights he was surrounded by. Arthur thanking Merlin, noticing Merlin's moods and believing in him. Accepting him also for his magic in the end and Merlin being satisfied with only being his servant for his whole life, Merlin never telling him the truth not because he thought Arthur may kill him, but because he didn't want to put Arthur in the position he had to chose between their friendship and the kingdom he was governing and the beliefs he had...

... it's just so wholesome and heartbreaking. There's a video on youtube with the parallels of the entire series and there is one with Merlin getting his hair messed by Arthur and then him passing by his resting site in the modern day bowing his head like he did that one time... I'm not okay, alright?

[Forgive me as I go cry in a corner for the next thousand years]

ARTHUR AND MORGANA

That one was really well delivered.

If they ended up with a last desperate, passionate kiss I would've found it believable that was how good they have depicted that love/hate relationship and whilst there was some chemistry and hints at it in the earlier seasons, I think one thing the show runners got right was their siblings energy.

10/10 if they went that way it would've be believable and c'mon everyone loves star crossed lovers who became each other enemy because of differing views and ideals and ended up killing each other. Twisted love story, here I come.

ARTHUR AND GWEN

My two favs in the same ship, am I gonna ship it? Honestly? Hell yeah!

1000/10 would recommend. Funny, dorky and passionate and romantic all the same time. Also pure enough that to their knowledge Gwen did cheat on Arthur (tho she never could explain why and no one explained to them her head had been tampered with, despite her snapping out of it almost as soon as it happened) and he forgave her, took her back and she forgave herself and they were true to each other. Honestly, heartbroken on their end.

Albeit how believable it was the way they depicted and delivered I am forever simping over Arthur fucking Pendragon naming her his heir (thus making the dynasty a dynasty by which standards both male and females could inherit) because he had faith in the world she had to build. And sad over my fav Guinevere finally have the power to make the changes she always advocated for, but loosing everything she held dear (her friendship with Morgana, her first love and the love of her life as well as Merlin, because we all know how griefstricken he must've been) to gain it, and still persevering with the grace and strength she had all through it all. No wonder Arthur fell in love with her.

Also, I don't know if you mean Lancelot or Leon for Gwen and the knight. So I'll give my opinion on both:

Gwen and Lancelot, 8/10 sweet and supporting but marred by Lancelot deciding to move away instead than staying with her and Gwen not asking as the supporting woman she is.

Gwen and Leon, 9/10 I feel like they would be the kind of people that might end up together when the love of their life has passed away and find comfort in each other, and love, albeit different, still strong and supporting. I can see them grow old together with Arthur not in the picture anymore.

Then, onto Stranger Things we go, I must say something tho. I am not this great fan of ST so my opinion is only based of what little I've seen on tumblr and on the few episodes I've seen. So it's not going to be as elaborated as the one we've seen until now, because I know the show less and thus I'm going mostly by feel and not by analysis.

STRANGER THINGS

NANCY AND STEVE

Soft, sweet, dorky and funny. 10/10 would ship them by what little I've seen. Tho I don't see them having a very long term, as in endgame, relationship. Friendship and support, crush? Seriously, of course. But somehow I get the impression at some point they would grow a bit apart romantically, but I might be wrong. Still I'd watch it gladly. So gimme it.

NANCY AND JONATHAN

Feels like it makes sense, good chemistry might be the actors who are together, I think?, anyway it seeps into the characters so it makes it believable. Also Jonathan seems like the kind of gloomy kid who has a heart of gold and would break generational abuse patterns. So 8/10 but only because I feel like the funny, dorky side of it might be a bit missing.

ELEVEN AND MIKE

They seem cute, still don't convince me for some reason. Feels a bit wrong to me. Don't ask me why, I've not seen enough to tell you clearly, just...they feel off, like they don't belong together romantically. Though it may be one of those slow-burn ships that gets more and more believable as time passes.

6/10

ELEVEN AND WILL

Sorry, I don't know why but it bothers me a bit, I find it...wrong? I don't know, by what I've seen they're better off as friends and I don't see that much chemistry between characters, the actors are adorable when they're out of character, but inside the story from what little I've seen... friends I can see, lovers...not so much. Again might be my impression is wrong because I've not seen the whole thing so I don't know.

It doesn't feel right to me.

5/10

NANCY AND ROBIN

From what I've seen cute and funny and easygoing as well as soft. Totally would love to see it if they ever went in that direction. Even if it's not endgame it feels plausible for that to happen, wether it be a one-sided crush, only a crush never acted upon or a love story.

8/10

CRISSY AND EDDIE

Again, by what I've seen between the serie and tumblr... YES! Give me more, now!

10/10 would love to see more of it.

ROBIN AND STEVE

Always gave me the vibe of partners in crime. Funny to watch, don't think it has any romantic hues, but even only for their dynamic as friends I'd watch several episodes in a row. So I'd give it a 7/10.

JOYCE AND JIM

Tbh I don't really have a disposition either in a sense or another with this one. A couple of badass shots, but I don't really have enough to form a brutally honest opinion, so I guess... 6/10?

MIKE AND WILL

Now this one has potential. I feel like whether they'll play it one-sided, both sided but doomed, or endgame it feels plausible and credible.

It feels cuttingly real. So 100/10 on ground of it feeling plausible, credible and the kind of love that even when unrequited might be enough to send you off the rails.

I think I've gotten them all. Feel free to point out if I missed one, sorry again if the brutally honest opinions on Stranger things are neither that brutal, neither opinions truly, but I'm not really into it, I've watched it sparsely and thus know almost next to nothing about them.

Hope you enjoyed and thank you for the ask!

[agentrouka-blog]

what do you think about obara?

Hi there!

Obara would be my third favorite Sand Snake after Sarella and Elia.

Obara Sand always walked too fast. She is chasing after something she can never catch, the prince had told his daughter once, in the captain's hearing. (AFFC, The Captain of Guards)

My goodness, what could it be?

Oh, right. Her mother. Her identity. Her sense of self.

She is the reason I can never ever truly like Oberyn.

“I am the whore's whelp, or had you forgotten?" (AFFC, The Captain of Guards)

No matter how heartbreaking Oberyn’s determination to get justice for Elia’s murder, I can never forgive him for this.

"The day my father came to claim me, my mother did not wish for me to go. 'She is a girl,' she said, 'and I do not think that she is yours. I had a thousand other men.' He tossed his spear at my feet and gave my mother the back of his hand across the face, so she began to weep. 'Girl or boy, we fight our battles,' he said, 'but the gods let us choose our weapons.' He pointed to the spear, then to my mother's tears, and I picked up the spear. 'I told you she was mine,' my father said, and took me. My mother drank herself to death within the year. They say that she was weeping as she died." Obara edged closer to the prince in his chair. "Let me use the spear; I ask no more."

(AFFC, The Captain of Guards)

Oberyn not only suddenly came to take her away from her mother. He did not come to offer her a “better life”, or do his duty to her as her father.

He made her choose.

He demonstrated an absolutely despicable abuse of power. He shows up out of the blue after presumably no contact and no support, assaults and humiliates her mother, a woman already on the very edge of society, and then makes Obara choose between this distorted image of victimized weakness, and his own power. Female tears vs. his phallic symbol. It’s a false dichotomy, the birth place of “not like other girls”, of internalized misogyny, of self-hatred.

She cannot have both. She cannot love both. She must disdain one to reap any benefit from the other. It is a horrifying violation. He erases half of her identity by dragging it through the dirt and creating a clear distinction between himself and his offer, and the woman who has been Obara’s caretaker all her life up to then. Her own mother. Her own sex.

We know that the young red-haired prostitute died trying to save her daughter, little Barra, while Robert had not lifted a finger to support them, and only had scorn for the girl’s choice of name. Was she weak?

Even her mother’s grief and desperate end is turned into a weapon against Obara, instead of proof of her mother’s love, it is proof of her mother’s supposed worthlessness. She must hate her mother because to stop would be to recognize that her father, her sole source of security in the world, was a monster to do this. She must cling to this phallic symbol of a weapon because Oberyn tainted all alternatives. The whore’s whelp she calls herself, spitting on her mother every time.

When she arrives at Sunspear to confront Doran about Oberyn’s death, she asks for troops and permission to sack Oldtown. Her hometown. For the wealth of the Hightowers, supposedly, but somehow her first instinct upon the news of her father’s demise is to attack the place she herself came from, her mother’s city. Begging to use the spear.

Perhaps it is the only way she knows how to express her pain, as Oberyn stole her tears. Self-destruction.

Even Nymeria understands there is a personal motive outside of Oberyn’s death.

“Obara would have me go to war.”

Nym laughed. “Yes, she wants to set the torch to Oldtown. She hates that city as much as our little sister loves it.” (AFFC, The Captain of Guards)

Obara is the only one of the elder Sand Snakes for whom GRRM constructs this kind of look back at her "acquisition" into the royal family, and I sincerely doubt that it is accidental. It is the one that matters, the one that is the most illustrative.

Nymeria has her noble Volantene mother’s beauty and bearing.

Tyene is said to carry her mother’s innocent appearance, and received a religious education at least thorough enough to enable her to “ingratiate herself” with the new high septon. It is, of course, a cynical facade.

Sarella proudly practices the marksmanship of the Summer Islanders of her mother’s heritage.

But Elia and Obara both show the real cracks that counter this hazy facade of the fierce Eight Sand Snakes, liberal Oberyn‘s loyal and independent daughters. They are all an extravagant self-indulgence on Oberyn’s part, created wherever he went and then picked up like a shiny tourist trinket. They all must revolve around him, the reflections of Oberyn in the looking glass of their mothers.

No," Elia broke in. "You're the one they'll want to ransom. You're the heir to Dorne, I'm just a bastard girl. Your father would give a chest of gold for you. My father's dead." (TWOW, Arianne II)

Elia, bless her, has her mother to lean on and still she keenly feels the legal reality of her position. Obara does not even have that. 

Sarella out of all the elder Sand Snakes, seems to be the most emotionally independent. She is the only one NOT around all the others in Dorne, and while she follows her father’s footsteps in Oldtown, she practices her mother‘s traditional archery and emphasizes her.

Alleras smiled back at him. "I only buy for friends. And I am no lord's son, I've told you that. My mother was a trader." (AFFC, Prologue)

This healthier balance, this valuing regard for her mother’s heritage (unlike Tyene's pretense) is what makes Sarella truly remarkable to me. She is not hot-headed nor does she seem to be boiling with a thinly veiled fury. She does not seem to advocate for murder, but we see her muse about feeding the people. She is serene, like the black swans on the Godseye, like the swanships, with a steady hand and a sure intention. Whatever exactly that intention may be. Ironically, sexism forces Sarella into a masculine role, as well. But it is a deliberate mask, elegantly worn. Freely worn. Unlike Obara's struggle.

The character in whom I see most parallels with Obara Sand is Jon Snow in his current iteration.

Ned, well-meaning though he may have been, robbed Jon of half of his identity and left him with an image that is considered tainted by the world around him. His mother is as inaccassible as Obara’s mother, emotionally, though for different reasons. Their father’s choices left both of them emotionally crippled to a degree. One mother was erased by silence, rendered invisible. The other, worse, was erased by violent and verbal degradation.

Consequently, it is Obara we see the most seemingly “unhinged”, when she is introduced, the most overtly violent, the most “unfeminine”. This is not an expression of personal taste, nor a handy mask. It is a grim adherence to the choice she was offered.

She is almost thirty, and came to Dorne almost two decades earlier, well before Elia’s murder.

"It has been twenty years, or near enough to make no matter.” (AFFC, The Captain of Guards)

She was somewhere between Sansa’s and Arya’s current age when Elia was killed. Does she perceive the contradiction in Oberyn living for vengeance for Elia, when he treated her own mother not so very very differently? He did not kill her truly, but he erased her just the same, with a violent contempt. A "weak woman", with only tears for weapons, her child ripped from her.

If Obara sees it, she is not letting on. She craves violence. She craves an expression of power to put something where tears might have their place. The way she was taught.

Of course, it would be boring if that is where it was truly headed. Much like Aegon and Jon, much also like Asha Greyjoy who adapted to an extremely male-dominated society, Obara would probably benefit from turning away from her father's looming shadow to a certain degree. I have some hope that GRRM will make room to explore it.

Obara is given a quest of justice and distraction: Darkstar. "Beard him in his den", as Arianne travels to "beard the dragon".

Your Speculation here (by @sayruq) is extremely interesting, placing Obara in the line of defense of peaceful children at the watergardens. The same children she had dismissed earlier, like the child she was not allowed to be. Wielding that spear not for vengeance or self-glorification but in the way it should be wielded: to defend those soft weak things that are precious.

I really hope this is where it's headed, and I really hope she will find her peace in that role.

[kellyvela]

Sansa, Catelyn, and Cersei are described as beautiful women in the books by several POVs. Their cheekbones, eyes, and hair are described in detail.

I was wondering, what about Daenerys? Is there any actual physical description of her in the books?

The first character that comes to my mind talking about Daenerys's look is Viserys :

“You still slouch. Straighten yourself.” He pushed back her shoulders with his hands. “Let them see that you have a woman’s shape now.”

(...) “She’s too skinny,” Viserys said.”

(...) “Smile,” Viserys whispered nervously, his hand falling to the hilt of his sword. “And stand up straight. Let him see that you have breasts. Gods know, you have little enough as is.”

—AGOT - Daenerys I

The second character is Illyrio:

“Look at her. That silver-gold hair, those purple eyes…she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt…and highborn, daughter of the old king, sister to the new, she cannot fail to entrance our Drogo.”

—AGOT - Daenerys I

So far: silver gold hair, purple eyes, slouch, too skinny, small breasts.

Now, according to the ASOIAF WIKI, "Daenerys has been described as fair and beautiful." Let's see:

Xaro described Dany as 'the fairest woman in the world':

"Let us speak instead of love, of dreams and desire and Daenerys, the fairest woman in this world. I am drunk with the sight of you."

She was no stranger to the overblown courtesies of Qarth. "If you are drunk, blame the wine."

"No wine is half so intoxicating as your beauty. My manse has seemed as empty as a tomb since Daenerys departed, and all the pleasures of the Queen of Cities have been as ashes in my mouth. Why did you abandon me?"

—ADWD - Daenerys III

Despite not knowing her in person yet, Tyrion called her our fair Daenerys:

"Aye." Tyrion moved his elephants. "And when the pisswater prince was safely dead, the eunuch smuggled you across the narrow sea to his fat friend the cheesemonger, who hid you on a poleboat and found an exile lord willing to call himself your father. It does make for a splendid story, and the singers will make much of your escape once you take the Iron Throne … assuming that our fair Daenerys takes you for her consort."

—ADWD - Tyrion VI

Galazza Galare called her fair Daenerys:

"I know these were not the words you wished to hear," said Galazza Galare. "Yet for myself, I understand. These dragons are fell beasts. Yunkai fears them … and with good cause, you cannot deny. Our histories speak of the dragonlords of dread Valyria and the devastation that they wrought upon the peoples of Old Ghis. Even your own young queen, fair Daenerys who called herself the Mother of Dragons … we saw her burning, that day in the pit … even she was not safe from the dragon's wroth."

—ADWD - The Queen's Hand

Jorah the creep called Daenerys 'the most beautiful that I have ever seen' that time he forced a kiss on her:

His eyes were on her breasts.

Dany covered them with her hands, before her nipples could betray her. "I . . . that was not fitting. I am your queen."

"My queen," he said, "and the bravest, sweetest, and most beautiful woman I have ever seen. Daenerys—"

—ASOS - Daenerys I

Even before knowing her in person, Quentyn called Daenerys 'the most beautiful in the world':

Tell me, my Westerosi friend, what is there in Meereen that you should want to go there?"

The most beautiful woman in the world, thought Quentyn. My bride-to-be, if the gods are good. Sometimes at night he lay awake imagining her face and form, and wondering why such a woman would ever want to marry him, of all the princes in the world. I am Dorne, he told himself. She will want Dorne.

(...) And now the most beautiful woman in the world was waiting in Meereen, and he meant to do his duty and claim her for his bride. She will not refuse me. She will honor the agreement. Daenerys Targaryen would need Dorne to win the Seven Kingdoms, and that meant that she would need him. It does not mean that she will love me, though. She may not even like me.

—ADWD - The Merchant's Man

"All dead," Quentyn agreed. "For what? To bring me here, so I might wed the dragon queen. A grand adventure, Cletus called it. Demon roads and stormy seas, and at the end of it the most beautiful woman in the world. A tale to tell our grandchildren. But Cletus will never father a child, unless he left a bastard in the belly of that tavern wench he liked. Will will never have his wedding. Their deaths should have some meaning."

—ADWD - The Spurned Suitor

Despite not knowing her in person yet, Euron and Victarion called Daenerys 'the fairest woman in the world' and 'the most beautiful woman in the world':

"The last of her line. They say she is the fairest woman in the world. Her hair is silver-gold, and her eyes are amethysts . . . but you need not take my word for it, brother. Go to Slaver's Bay, behold her beauty, and bring her back to me."

(...) "I could sail the Iron Fleet to hell if need be." When Victarion opened his hand, his palm was red with blood. "I'll go to Slaver's Bay, aye. I'll find this dragon woman, and I'll bring her back." But not for you. You stole my wife and despoiled her, so I'll have yours. The fairest woman in the world, for me.

—AFFC - The Reaver

"Aye, Captain," said Wulfe One-Ear. He was not half the man that Nute the Barber was, but the Crow's Eye had stolen Nute. By raising him to Lord of Oakenshield, his brother made Victarion's best man his own. "Is it still to be Meereen?"

"Where else? The dragon queen awaits me in Meereen." The fairest woman in the world if my brother could be believed. Her hair is silver-gold, her eyes are amethysts.

Was it too much to hope that for once Euron had told it true? Perhaps. Like as not, the girl would prove to be some pock-faced slattern with teats slapping against her knees, her "dragons" no more than tattooed lizards from the swamps of Sothoryos. If she is all that Euron claims, though … They had heard talk of the beauty of Daenerys Targaryen from the lips of pirates in the Stepstones and fat merchants in Old Volantis. It might be true. And Euron had not made Victarion a gift of her; the Crow's Eye meant to take her for himself. He sends me like a serving man to fetch her. How he will howl when I claim her for myself. Let the men mutter. They had sailed too far and lost too much for Victarion to turn west without his prize.

—ADWD - The Iron Suitor

The iron captain had no time to wait for laggards. Not with his bride encircled by her enemies. The most beautiful woman in the world has urgent need of my axe.

—ADWD - Victarion I

Daario also called Daenerys beautiful:

Daario Naharis entered swaggering. He swaggers even when he is standing still. (...) "Bright queen," he said, "you have grown more beautiful in my absence. How is this thing possible?"

The queen was accustomed to such praise, yet somehow the compliment meant more coming from Daario than from the likes of Reznak, Xaro, or Hizdahr. "Captain. They tell us you did us good service in Lhazar." I have missed you so much.

—ADWD - Daenerys IV

As you can see from the last quote, in addition to those already mentioned, there are other characters around Daenerys that constantly praise her beauty. And I'm sure I failed to quote others characters talking about Daenerys's beauty as well.

There is also the fact that Daenerys's eyes are compared to Ashara Dayne, a known beauty:

And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes.

—AGOT - Catelyn II

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara's smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …

—ADWD - The Kingbreaker

As you can see, the praise to her beauty comes from mostly dubious people, more interested in her dragons than in herself, people that wanted to use her for their own agenda than truly and unconditionally help her.

I personally think that the Targs are exactly in the line/border of beauty and ugliness. But also take note that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For Westeros, Targaryen/Valyrian look is exotic, the gold-silver hair (that can look almost white/grey) and the purple/lilac/indigo eyes. And exotic can be attractive for some people. But most than exotic, when Targaryen conquered Westeros, they established the superiority of their blood, so of course their look, incest tradition and dragon riding was stated as superior and exceptional, they even wrote a doctrine about that and called it "exceptionalism." And it's too easy to associated superiority with beauty......

Anyway, about the Targaryen look, I think we must trust in Princess Arianne Martell:

Young John Mudd has been sending out birds as well, it seemed. Near dusk on the fourth day, not long after Chain and his wagons had taken their leave of them, Arianne’s company was met by a column of sellswords down from Griffin’s Roost, led by the most exotic creature that the princess had ever laid her eyes on, with painted fingernails and gemstones sparkling in his ears.

Lysono Maar spoke the Common Tongue very well. “I have the honor to be the eyes and ears of the Golden Company, princess.”

“You look… ” She hesitated.

“…like a woman?” He laughed. “That I am not.”

“ …like a Targaryen,” Arianne insisted. His eyes were a pale lilac, his hair a waterfall of white and gold. All the same, something about him made her skin crawl. Was this what Viserys looked like? she found herself wondering. If so perhaps it is a good thing he is dead.

“I am flattered. The women of House Targaryen are said to be without peer in all the world.”

“And the men of House Targaryen?”

“Oh, even prettier. Though if truth be told, I have only seen the one.” Maar took her hand in his own, and kissed her lightly on the wrist. “Mistwood sent word of your coming, sweet princess. We will be honored to escort you to the Roost, but I fear you have missed Lord Connington and our young prince.”

—TWOW - Arianne II

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[hellsbellschime]

Early on Jon & Arya had a conversation of "don't tell Sansa" because she can't keep a secret, so they knew telling Sansa something would not stay secret.

LOL well putting aside the fact that Sansa was a known tattle tale in childhood, keeping it a secret simply isn’t a reasonable request. FFS this is exactly why Ned never told Cat or anyone else in the first place, because telling someone a secret that could get them killed and then telling them what to do with said secret is not something you can ask. To tell Sansa the truth and let her know that her brother who is generally a very decent and fair person has a better claim to the throne than someone she has already clocked as a tyrannical dictator who hates her and wants to subjugate her people is goddamn ridiculous.

And JFC let’s not forget the context here. Sansa’s first and most educational experience of dictatorial leaders was Joffrey, and when Joffrey’s claim was questioned he didn’t hesitate to have every Baratheon bastard he could find murdered in order to prevent anyone coming for his throne. She’s seen Tyrion drag Joffrey within an inch of his life multiple times without hesitation, but she sees that Tyrion is afraid of Daenerys, so she has good reason to believe that whatever Joffrey was, there is something even worse beneath Dany’s surface veneer of the enlightened despot. She knows Dany already knows about Jon and that she will likely find out that the Starks know the truth about Jon too, which puts them all in immediate danger, and one of the only options that she has to diffuse that danger is by telling people the truth, thereby making Dany’s potential reward for killing the Starks much lower. FFS SANSA HAS LITERALLY LIVED THIS ENTIRE SCENARIO BEFORE AND HALF OF HER FAMILY DIED FOR IT and if anyone else in season 8 had half of a functioning brain left they not only would have done the same, they would have spread that information as far as possible in order to ensure that the secret couldn’t die with them.

Also not for nothing but when Dany killed Varys and had her meltdown about what a victory this was for Sansa it fully demonstrated that Sansa was straight up falling on the sword to save her family by being the one to let the secret out so if anyone’s slanderous asses want to claim that she was being a devious little shit they can fight me, because yeah she was pretty knowingly plotting to save Jon’s life at the very possible and real cost of her own.

[dwellordream]

Maybe this is too much of a risky question, so feel free to not answer if you don’t want to, but how do you think Sansa actually viewed or felt about Arya, and how do you think she will react when they meet again?

Well, our introduction to how Sansa views Arya is through her very first POV chapter: Sansa comes down for breakfast at the inn, Septa Mordane asks where Arya is, Sansa knows Arya has snuck off somewhere but claims Arya wasn’t hungry. At this point I would not say Sansa is covering for Arya out of the kindness of her heart, I would say that, in typical sibling fashion, she really just does not want to be in the middle of a Mordane versus Arya conflict. She is not so hostile towards Arya that she is willing to throw Arya under the bus at a moment’s notice, but she isn’t going to concern herself much with what Arya is off doing. This, of course, is immediately foiled with Mordane tells Sansa that Cersei has invited her and Arya into the wheelhouse for the day, and that Sansa needs to go find Arya and tell her to make sure she looks presentable for their time with the queen. From the way Mordane says, “Do remind her to dress nicely today. The grey velvet, perhaps.” I get the impression that Mordane giving instructions or warnings to Arya via Sansa is not at all uncommon, and that this probably does not at all help the relationship between sisters, if Sansa is often being asked to act as Mordane’s mouthpiece when she’s fed up and doesn’t want to deal with Arya. We then get this: The only thing that scared her about today was Arya. Arya had a way of ruining everything. You never knew what she would do. "I'll tell her," Sansa said uncertainly, "but she'll dress the way she always does." She hoped it wouldn't be too embarrassing. "May I be excused?" Sansa views Arya as unpredictable, her first POV suggests. She’s never sure what Arya is going to do, but she knows it’s probably not going to be met with approval from the people around them. “Arya had a way of ruining everything.” is point blank not a nice thing to think about your sister, obviously. Why does Sansa feel Arya ruins everything, that Arya is embarrassing to her? Well, we’re about to find out: "You better put on something pretty," Sansa told her. "Septa Mordane said so. We're traveling in the queen's wheelhouse with Princess Myrcella today." "I'm not," Arya said, trying to brush a tangle out of Nymeria's matted grey fur. "Mycah and I are going to ride upstream and look for rubies at the ford." "Rubies," Sansa said, lost. "What rubies?" Arya gave her a look like she was so stupid. "Rhaegar's rubies. This is where King Robert killed him and won the crown." Sansa regarded her scrawny little sister in disbelief. "You can't look for rubies, the princess is expecting us. The queen invited us both." "I don't care," Arya said. "The wheelhouse doesn't even have windows, you can't see a thing." "What could you want to see?" Sansa said, annoyed. She had been thrilled by the invitation, and her stupid sister was going to ruin everything, just as she'd feared. "It's all just fields and farms and holdfasts." "It is not," Arya said stubbornly. "If you came with us sometimes, you'd see." The scene is both fairly comedic, in that they are such different pages they might as not even be in the same book, and pretty much sets up what we know to expect from their dynamic. Sansa doesn’t hate Arya, but she feels that if there is one thing in her personal life (as narrow a personal life as any 11 year old has) that does not fit, that does not work the way it should, it is Arya. Arya doesn’t think like Sansa. Arya doesn’t share the same interests as Sansa. Arya doesn’t seem to care (in Sansa’s perspective) what Sansa thinks or what anyone thinks. We know Arya, does, in fact, care quite a lot about what Sansa and other people think of her, but this is not apparent to Sansa.  Sansa is thrilled at the thought of spending the day with Cersei and Myrcella, viewing this invitation as the very tip of the iceberg- she’s been betrothed to the crown prince, this is going to be her life now, idyllic rides through the countryside, court gossip, spending time in the presence of the queen herself, renowned for her beauty. Traveling in a wheelhouse is a big deal for someone raised at the isolated Winterfell. Sansa doesn’t care about the outside world, she can’t stand the thought of missing out on all the excitement going on inside. In her mind, she is verging on the precipice of grownup life. Grownup ladies sit in the wheelhouse and chat and do needlework and read to one another. They do not go tearing off into the countryside looking for rubies. But it’s not just that Arya acts ‘childish’ that annoys Sansa. It’s that Arya’s behavior does not fit the standard Sansa has been raised to uphold and to see as right and proper. Arya does not nod and go, “Sure, Sansa, let me put on my grey velvet and I’ll be right there!” Arya argues with her. The big sister! The gall. Arya refuses to put on her nice grey dress. Arya plays with the butcher’s boy, someone Sansa has been taught is not a suitable companion for a highborn girl. Arya wanders off, talking to all sorts of people, regardless of class. Sansa sees herself as well on her way to becoming a woman, but not only, in her view, does her sister act like a child in comparison, it’s that she does not even act ‘like a proper little girl’. Arya disregards the gender norms Sansa has been told must be upheld. Arya is defiant, Arya is stubborn, Arya says what’s on her mind. To Sansa, this means any social situation with Arya is a ticking timebomb. She is constantly annoyed and aggravated, afraid Arya will offend Cersei, Joffrey, Myrcella, etc. Little does Sansa know, Arya is also often on edge in these situations, feeling like she can’t do anything right, that Sansa doesn’t like her and is ashamed of her.  However, what I do not read into this initial scene, though it ends with both sisters annoyed and frustrated with one another, is genuine hatred. Arya refuses to come along, Sansa pulls the classic older sibling ‘fine, I’ll go by myself, and it’ll be lots of fun!’ hoping to use some reverse psychology, and Arya gets one last jab in as Sansa stalks off. Sansa is tearful, not because she’s going to miss Arya oh so much, but because now she’s going to have to explain where Arya ran off to, and she’s afraid it will make her look bad or that Cersei and company will think less of her for having an ‘unruly sister’. All of this is pretty realistic to the behavior of some bickering 11 and 9 year olds. Both girls are sensitive, but in different ways, which again, makes sense. Even in the midst of their fierce argument, Sansa is still giggling at Arya trying to brush Nymeria’s fur, and Arya still offers to let Sansa come along with her and Mycah. We know from Arya’s POV, moving forward, that she feels genuinely hurt by Sansa’s disapproval, that she feels the absence of a close sisterly bond, that Sansa and Jeyne’s comments of ‘horse face’ whether teasingly meant or deliberately provocative, make her feel insecure and small, unworthy and unwanted. But neither Arya nor Sansa have the skills to communicate their true feelings or exactly why they aggravate one another so much. More so, why Arya aggravates Sansa so much, as Arya is not nearly as upset by Sansa’s more ‘ladylike’ behavior as Sansa is by Arya’s ‘rebellious’ behavior. Again, I think this is fairly reasonable. They’re 11 and 9 and Septa Mordane is not at all one to be promoting conflict resolution. Ned doesn’t spend much time parenting either of them on a day to day basis as they travel south. They’ve been separated from their mother, which is a pretty big deal for two little girls who’ve never traveled before, nevermind traveled without the rest of the family. They don’t have their brothers as buffers; Sansa can’t confide in Robb, Arya can’t confide in Jon. They don’t have a ton of privacy; they’re sharing a tent or an inn bed together at night, they can’t just run off to opposite ends of the keep to get away from each other, because they’re on the road. The mundane stressors are exacerbating an already rocky relationship.  But none of this is all that out of the ordinary or odd. Neither of them has flung any major insults at the other in either’s POV so far, they haven’t had any big conflicts. What really goes on to totally change the dynamic is the Trident incident, and all the emotions tied up in that. That is not a ‘normal’ situation. That is a situation none of the kids present (including Joffrey and Mycah) should ever have been in. That is four kids wandering off into the woods, miles away from any adult supervision, two of them at least tipsy, one of them carrying a weapon. Neither Sansa nor Arya woke up that day expecting things to go that way. It is so beyond the pale that what follows is the equivalent of a nuclear bomb in the relationship dynamic. There is no way either comes out of that with anything close to positive feelings, in the direct aftermath, about the other sister. It is written that way by design. It’s not a nasty spat where some cruel things or said. It’s not a shoving match over who gets to watch TV or shower first. It taints the entire relationship for the rest of the book, and it guarantees that things ‘end’ on a bad note for the sisters, because neither has any forewarning to realize that there will be no chance for a reconciliation a few months down the line. Before that, what we see is, in my current reading, a more or less ‘normal’ sibling relationship. It doesn’t excuse the bullying Arya’s experienced growing up at Winterfell (which Sansa certainly does not recognize as bullying at the time of the first book) but it is not traumatizing and earth-shattering to the level that the Trident incident becomes. This really didn’t answer how I feel Sansa will react when she and Arya meet again, but to cut things short before I go on all night: Sansa currently believes Arya is dead. She’s not thinking of reconciling with Arya or thinking of her last months with Arya because it’s painful and what is the point? Arya is dead and she’s never coming back, in Sansa’s mind. She will never have a sister again. This seems doubly true to her, no doubt, after the Tyrell scheme falls through and she is married to Tyrion.  However, we do see her, as of Winds, befriending Mya Stone and Myranda Royce, neither of whom are people the Sansa we see in AGoT would have ever thought of spending time with. And before that, we see her doing the sort of things with Margaery (such as going hawking and racing horses) that Arya might have, had the opportunity arose, offered to do with Sansa. Sansa thinks of Arya as she’s warning Margaery about Joffrey. Sansa dreams about children with Willas, sometimes a daughter who looks Arya. That does not suggest contempt or disdain or lingering loathing, in my opinion. So I would say that Sansa’s initial reaction to meeting Arya again will be shock and disbelief, then overwhelming joy that not all her family is dead (assuming Arya is the first sibling she reunites with). I do not think it will be a cold stand-off between sisters. Arya has been thinking of Sansa too, frequently in A Storm of Swords, even. I truly hope that past the initial thrill of being reunited and the awkwardness of both of them being a few years older, they are able to speak openly and honestly about their childhood, that Sansa is able to apologize, that Arya is able to express herself, that both are able to agree to move forward together as sisters who love each other and who want to support one another.

[first-of-her-nxme]

It looks like one of my answers doesn’t show up in the tags so I’ll copy it here, just in case. It might be interesting for the asoiaf fans, Jaqen’s and Arya’s fans in particular;)

So, the question I received was:

Where is the coherent foreshadowing for Jaqen and Arya? It all seems taken out of fucking nowhere

And here we go:

It starts in the very first book when Arya names her direwolf after the queen who married a Dornishman, and it never stops because Arya and Jaqen are repeating Lyanna’s and Rhaegar’s story. Of course, in ASOIAF, the story is never exactly the same. Which by the way gives me hope that at least they will have their happy ending. Or the closest thing to a happy ending, which in George Martin’s world means less heartbreaking than the others’s endings;d

Trouble with Jaqarya foreshadowing is that George Martin started writing the story with a five year gap in mind between Arya’s arrival in Braavos and A Dance with Dragons. So, when he first envisioned the story he already had a 15 year old Arya in mind. It means that Arya and Jaqen would have reunited in A Dance with Dragons already and she would have been old enough for a romance. It also means that Jaqen’s identity would have been revealed in A Dance with Dragons.

But, since GRRM abandoned the idea, we have to wait for the reveal till The Winds of Winter. As a consequence the whole build-up is made of hints, symbols, clues, metaphors, parallels to R/L and so on. Nothing is said explicitly because it would ruin the big reveal of who Jaqen is and what’s ahead of them.

So, from the top:

1. Arya names her direwolf after Nymeria, a queen who found home far from her own country and who married a Dornishman. Jaqen is half Dornish, he is Elia’s and Rhaegar’s son, Aegon VI. I already pinned the answer about his true identity to my profile so please read it if you need further explanation.

Thanks to the Game of Thrones finale we know that Arya will sail across the sunset sea. I searched through the books after s8 and of course I found information that they both, J&A, will leave. I guess I need to thank D&D for Arya’s ending, otherwise I would have overlooked the clues completely.

So, either they will find home far away, somewhere in the sea, or in Braavos or in Dorne or they will return to Jaqen’s castle ( the Red Keep or Dragonstone ). Wherever they will stay, it’s going to be far from Arya’s birth place, Winterfell.

2. Nymeria has golden eyes, Arya thinks that they shine like golden coins - it’s another connection to Jaqen ( Aegon ) who switches his iron coin for a golden dragon in A Feast for Crows. The coin is poisoned and kills Pate but it’s also a symbol of courtship. Pate needed it to claim his beloved Rosey.

3. On the way to King’s Landing, Arya is picking up flowers in the Neck, perhaps in the same area where the flowers for Lyanna’s crown had been picked. Ned is deeply moved when he sees Arya with the flowers because she reminds him of Lya. The flowers are purple - purple is the symbol of royal birth, of the rightful heir to the throne whom Jaqen ( Aegon ) is. They are called poisoned kisses and burn Arya’s hands - Jaqen is using poisons and represents fire. He is a Targ, a future dragon rider. Arya will also burn her hands and lips in the House of Black and White while learning to make poisons.”Poisoned kisses” is a bad name, it implies doomed love which reminds us of R/L. For Arya it means a love for the murderer. Hopefully with a happier ending than Lya’s love.      

4. Ned tells Arya that she will marry a king and rule his castle and they will have sons. Like I said before, Jaqen is the rightful king. In A Clash of Kings, Arya even reveals his identity though it is very cleverly concealed in the scene when she gives him his own name. To be brief: it's a play on words; he asks her if the name of the king she wants dead is Joffrey and she answers the name ( of the king ) is Jaqen H’ghar. So Joffrey is not the king, he’s impostor, the true king is Jaqen.

5. In King’s Landing, Arya has dreams of Rhaenys though she doesn’t realize it. She also catches Rhaenys’s cat, her “little dragon”, and kisses its forehead. In Harrenhal, Jaqen kisses her forehead as if to return the kiss;)

6. Arya ruins Sansa’s silk dress and offers to make her a new one. Sansa tells her she could make a dress good enough only to clean the pigsty.

That pigsty is kind of a big deal.

In fairytales, princes disguise themselves as swineherds to hide their true identity, like in H.C Andersen’s story “The Swineherd”.

George Martin used this motif in his books too. In AFFC Jaqen wears the face of Pate “the Pig Boy”. Arya, on the other hand, lives in Braavos in his house, makes dresses and sweeps the floors. She lives in the Pig Boy’s house, in the pigsty, and cleans it -  just like Sansa has said. Only the pigsty is the prince’s house like Ned has foretold.

7. In Harrenhal, Jaqen wakes Arya from her wolf dream and kisses her. This motif comes from the Sleeping Beauty fairytale - only the prince can awake the sleeping beauty.

8. Also in Harrenhal, Jaqen and Arya make their “weasel soup”. They pour hot broth on the guards to free the Northmen. Jaqen gives Arya a pair of padded gloves and he is wearing the identical gloves himself, while they struggle the pot of soup between them - it’s a metaphor for sharing power. Gloves are symbol of power and noble birth.

The cooking pot is another motif borrowed from “The Swineherd” - the prince has a magic pot that plays a song. Jaqen ( Aegon ) has a song too, a song of Ice and Fire.

9. Jaqen gives Arya his coin ( we already know it’s a symbol of courtship ) and she pays with it for a passage across the narrow sea. She crosses the sea to get to the House of Black and White, the house of darkness.

In Greek mythology, the souls of dead people pay with a coin to cross the river and get to the Underworld. Arya, like Persephone, is first shown while picking up flowers and then she descends into the Underworld seduced by GRRM’s version of Hades. Hades has a three-headed dog, Jaqen has a prophecy ( and the coin ) of a three-headed dragon.

10. When Arya meets the Ghost of High Heart, the witch compares her to Jenny, a girl with flowers in her hair who fell in love with a Targaryen prince.

11. In ASOS, Arya listens to Tom Sevenstrings playing My Featherbed song. The song was written by Rhaegar for Lyanna. It tells the story of Jenny and Duncan Targaryen but Rhaegar concealed his own feelings for Lya in the text. The lyrics refer to Arya and Jaqen as well - they repeat J/D and R/L story of a Targaryen prince and a girl from the North.

Of course Rhaegar didn’t know about his son and Lya’s niece when he wrote the song:))

The song is not about Gendrya, like people think. I already mentioned it in one of my answers. It’s very important because it helps to understand what had happened in Harrenhal and what will happen to Arya and Jaqen.

Arya hears My Featherbed after Gendry invited her to the smithy. He knocked her over and they wrestled. Her dress was torn and she looked as if someone had tried to hurt her. Right after Tom plays Rhaegar’s song. Gendry obviously didn’t want to hurt Arya but that scene explains what Robert did in Harrenhal after Rhaegar left - he was furious that Rhaegar crowned Lya so he demanded “his rights”. That’s why Lyanna ran off. Rhaegar was her rescue.

12. In the House of Black and White Arya sleeps under the red blanket which reminds her of her favorite blanket from Winterfell. I’m sure it’s Jaqen’s blanket, and perhaps his bed too, because red is his color: red hair, red poison, red war, red god, red comet over Harrenhal, red dragon (?)  - red accompanies him throughout his journey. Of course black is his color too, it’s the color of the Stranger. Red and black are the colors of House...

13. In Arya’s Braavosi chapters GRRM concealed the story of the beginning of Rhaegar’s and Lyanna’s love in Harrenhal. But that’s a massive story to tell so I will write a separate post about it.

14. Finally, in Mercy chapter Arya hears the story of the first Black Pearl of Braavos, the pirate queen, and her affair with King Aegon IV. She sighs wistfully and says that she would love to see a dragon too. Dragon here means more than an animal, GRRM once again hints at her future romance with the Dragon.

15. “Mercy” chapter parallels the prologue to A Feast for Crows. Originally it was meant to be in AFFC but GRRM eventually moved it to TWOW.

Perhaps GRRM wanted Jaqen’s chapter to start AFFC and Arya’s chapter to end the book. The prologue is a chapter with two main motifs: dragons and love. “Mercy” is a chapter of revenge and love for a dragon. The prologue starts at night when Pate’s beloved is sleeping naked in her room. “Mercy” starts at dawn when Arya wakes up naked in her room and sees a dragon boat passing beneath her window.

But those two chapters are so rich in parallels that they deserve a separate post as well:)

16. While Jaqen and Arya are having their adventures in Oldtown and Braavos respectively, in the North Mance is infiltrating Winterfell. Mance is posing as a bard. He sings a song of a Dornishman’s wife in turn with the Northman’s daughter. It’s another delightful hint that the Northman’s daughter, Ned’s daughter is ( well, will be ) the Dornishman’s wife.

As you can see it’s a pretty massive foreshadowing. I probably still omitted something because there are really tons of those clues.

I hope you’ve enjoyed the read.

Thanks for the ask :)

[ladycatofwinterfell]

😬 a mix of 36 41 50 preferably behind brandons back

36. “We can never be together” kiss

And

41. Forbidden kiss

And

50. In secret kiss

Okay so before we start, no less than three separate people asked me for 36. Are you guys okay, do you need a hug? But you asked for angst and your wish is my law, so here we go.

Catelyn had thought that she would be happy with Brandon. He had been so charming and promised her that she would have everything she desired. Her life would be a sweet one, a happy one. He had given up on that promise quite quickly. Just a few moons after she had arrived at Winterfell with their son, actually. In the beginning it had been well, he had been the Brandon she had known during their betrothal. With his easy smile and loud laugh. But as time passed it had changed. And definitely not for the better.

As it was after five years he barely paid her any mind outside of her bedchamber and when it was strictly necessary. Because he still came to her chamber to claim what was is regularly. Yes, that he did often and happily. That he enjoyed. In the beginning he had pleasured her as well and she had been more than thrilled over that because she was aware of that most men did not care for a woman’s pleasure. He had stopped with that too, he only came to spend his seed in her and then leave again. And she was glad for that, the thought of him touching her was no longer an exciting thought and more of a thought she looked at with disgust. She had no wish to get touched by a man who did not care for her.

But at least he had given her her children. Robb and Sansa, the lights of her miserable existance. They were beautiful and brilliant. They made the grey and cold life worth living. And Ned. Her Ned. She would not have met Ned if it had not been for Brandon. Ned, the mand she thought of when Brandon pushed into her. Ned, her best friend as well as her lover. Ned, the man who cared for her and touched her in all the right places. Ned, the man she loved. Without Ned she probably would have been unhappy, but as it was, she was quite satisfied. She could endure Brandon as long as she had Ned

She remembered exactly when it had started. It had been before Sansa, and sometimes she looked at her daughter and wondered which brother she belonged to. She hoped that it was Ned. Sansa would be better off with Ned as her father, that was a thing to be sure of. In the beginning they had been friends. He had talked to her when Brandon ignored her and made her laugh with his wry humour.

She remembered the first time he had kissed her, when Brandon had been away, visiting the Rills. She remembered the first time they had made love, the day after the first kiss. She remembered all the times thay had talked about how they could not continue only to keep going because not being with each other was no possibility. She remembered every little moment, every secret smile, every muffled moan and every “I love you” whispered in the dark of night when the rest of the castle was asleep. Everything that had passed right under Brandon’s nose.

All those things she thought of when Brandon told her that he had intentions of betrothing Ned to Barbrey Ryswell.

“What?” she said.

It felt like a knife in her heart. No. Brandon had taken everything else from her. He could not take Ned from her. The only comfort she had beside her children.

“Yes, it is past time he weds and leaves Winterfell” Brandon muttered.

She didn’t know what to say. She didn’t have anything to say to him. She wanted to curse him. Wanted to strike him and scream at him. But he was the Lord of Winterfell, he was Ned’s brother and he could do whatever he wished. She had never gone so far as to hate her lord husband, it had only been contempt. But in that moment she hated him. The hatred burned in her and suddenly she could not stand to look at Brandon. He had promised her every sweet thing life had to offer and then he had taken it all from her, one thing after another. And she had let him. For it was his right. But it was cruel all the same.

“Would you please leave me?” she said as she pulled her nightshift over her head.

“You have no right to demand things of me.”

“I am not demanding, I am asking. Of course you may stay, if that is your wish, my lord.”

She would rather throw herself from the highest tower than sleep in the same bed as him, but that she could not tell him. So instead she forced herself to look at him, her husband. She smoothed out her expression, pushed away the anger and the sadness.

“It is not.”

He sometimes looked at her like she was some foul creature that had crawled up from the ground. She had no worth at all in his eyes. She was just there to mother children for him. Catelyn no longer took any notice to those looks. She knew her worth, and she knew that the only looks that mattered were those that Ned gave her. He looked at her like she was the most divine creature on earth. And she loved him.

She could feel the tears burning in her eyes the moment he had closed the door. Her light and love, the one thing that had made Brandon’s behavior bearable. The one person she could truly talk to, the one person who truly knew and loved her. And the only person she wanted to see in that moment.

She left the bed and pulled a rober over her nightshift. She padded quietly through the dark corridors towards Ned’s chambers. They were closer to her own than Brandon’s was, and she could easily get there undiscovered. She didn’t bother knocking anymore, just opened the door and slipped inside.

Ned was still awake, as he always was. And he smiled softly and rose from his chair when he looked up and saw her. That smile, that unknowing smile, was the only thing it took to break her.

He immediately walked over to her and wrapped her in his arms, holding her close to him. Her rock. Her safe rock.

“Cat?” he whispered into her hair. “What happened?”

She heard the worry in his voice, but she sobbed so hard that she could not get out any words. Brandon would have been angry with her for being so difficult, but Ned understood. He whispered comforting words and held her until she was calm enough to talk again. And she loved him for it.

“Brandon intends to wed you to Barbrey Ryswell and send you away from Winterfell” she mumbled.

“He has not spoken to me about something like that” Ned immediately said. “I’m sure it is nothing to worry about, Cat.”

She looked up at him, and he looked back at her with his soft grey eyes. Always so calm and collected.

“No, Ned. He told me. Just now.”

Ned seemed to consider for a moment.

“I supposed it was inevitable. I had to marry eventually and if I did not pick a wife he would do it for me.”

“How can you be so calm?” Catelyn forced out.

She had felt like her world had fallen apart, and he only looked like it was a mild inconvenience. And for a second her heart fell in her chest. Did he not love her? Had she only imagined it to stand out with her miserable marriage?

“I am not” Ned replied, pulling her close again. “I am furious. I would do anything to make Brandon change his mind. But I can’t. And it pains me more than I can say.”

She did hear in his voice that he meant it. He was opposite to Brandon in that way. When Brandon felt something he expressed it very loudly, Ned’s emotions were more quiet. And still she felt them so much more. And cared for them so much more.

“Do you love me?” she asked.

“More than anything.”

When she turned her face up towards him once more he kissed her. She wrapped her arms around his neck and pressed herself against him, desperately deepened the kiss as much as she could. Maybe, just maybe, he would not leave if she just held him close enough to her. Maybe everything would be well if she kissed him like the world was about to end. It felt fitting. For in a way her world would fall apart when she saw the man she loved married off to another woman.

[janiedean]

So was discussing this with a friend. S8 s*ansa talking about r+L even tho jon asked her not to. Initially we were like book!s would never, but then my friend said book!s DID in book 1 (telling ned's plan to c). Now obviously these are 2 v different situations. Book!s was a kid who had NO idea abt the larger context of things, and she wasn't aware of the political games going on. She genuinely thought she was doing the Right thing or at least what would eventually benefit her and her family 1/2

~because if c and joff are happy it will benefit the starks. So my friend said s8 stuff wasn't all that different since she genuinely believed Dany was nuts and Westeros was better off without her and that jon couldn't see it because he loved her. Plus if jon ends up on the iron throne (which is what we thought she was getting at in telling tyrion) it's again good for the starks? What do you think? If nothing it made sense in the context of show!s considering LF her mentor? 2/2

... I... respectfully disagree on just about everything. In order:

as you said, book!sansa had no fucking idea what she was doing, she was being misled by both cersei and joffrey and she thought she was saving her father, not benefit her family, which is normal given that she’s... twelve. or whatever;

now, the problem is that it’s bad writing if a character starts somewhere and arrives at the same place without nothing having fucking changed in between unless it’s a movie whose point is being depressing or specifically wants to be tragic, because like... circular writing for *long* series where people get invested in *character development* means that we get at the same situation but with changed people - for one, idk, it’s circular writing if jaime’s last line in the series is the things I do for love after he idk knights brienne or saving tyrion’s life or doing something selfless, because we went from jaime who does things for love that are bad for him and bad for everyone else involved to jaime doing things for love for good reasons, which is why among the other reasons the bells is a shit episode that doesn’t work on any level, so if sansa spills the truth about jon to tyrion exactly the way she did in got therefore causing harm and the only difference is that she knows she’s causing harm sansa hasn’t had any development outside of ‘wow she started as a sweet girl and now she’s cersei 2.0′;

on that sense, the entire point in sansa being mentored by lf in the book is that she’s not going to turn out like him or cersei which is plenty obvious because it’s been four books and she’s still kind and empathetic to everyone including people who hurt her, so that is not a legitimate writing choice imvho;

now, about sansa spilling about r+l, there is a whole other level of wrong in it, which we can further divide into the following categories: a) first of all for what THE SHOW told me, sansa basically decided dany was nuts and hated her because WHY THE FUCK NOT - there is no literal reason for show sansa to dislike dany that much when she went with jon to help, JON was the king so it was his decision to kneel, she didn’t hurt the northerners and she arrived with an army to kill the goddamned zombies, so basically by the point she spills to tyrion she seems like she’s doing that out of pettiness - honest, by 8x04 dany hadn’t... looked nuts or anything, and I’m saying it as someone who doesn’t care about dany but thinks that if S8 did one thing was making you root for her even if you previously didn’t; b) sansa swore in front of a heart tree (which is sacred to northerners) that she wouldn’t spill and then she did, which is... not that great; c) more than that, it was going against jon’s wishes because jon made overtly clear that he didn’t want the throne, that he didn’t want to act on his rights and that he knelt to dany and that he wasn’t interested in challenging her claim, so if sansa wanted him to be king she was basically ignoring what HE wanted without even consulting with him first, which is an incredibly bad breach of trust on her side that honestly, if I had been jon in the finale I’d have told her to fuck off and that I never wanted to see her again X°DD like you don’t put people on thrones when they didn’t ask you to out of disliking the legitimate ruler that your brother who was king at the moment bent the knee to because you presumably.... want the independent north which in the books is a thing that will happen because bran is 100% the next kitn, but is not a thing inherently seen as morally better or more just than any other option and which neither ned nor robb actually wanted, so.... no;

‘dany being nuts’ was a decision dnd took without even planning it well because she basically lost it without one single illegitimate reason - I mean, again considering that I don’t care for dany and I think she’s a good khaleesi but not a great ruler and that her adwd stint confirms it and that she’s not endgame ruler for the end of the books... what I see in S8 is that the poor girl goes to winterfell to help them and sansa treats her like shit and everyone treats her like shit, she has to see one of her dragons die once, jorah dies in front of her, when she tries to mingle with the others she gets treated like she doesn’t belong, then it turns out that her new boyfriend is her nephew and a threat to her claim which she has staked her entire storyline on, then almost all of her closest advisors decide to turn against her for wtf reasons when she said from the beginning that she was there to kill cersei and reclaim her rights, then she loses her second dragon and her best friend in the span of one day, then during the bells she goes berserk because they decided to give her joncon’s storyline out of nowhere and bc dnd haven’t even read the first version of the first dance with dragons, but like... honestly at that point my opinion was ‘if she goes and dracaryses the entire continent I’ll just cheer because what the fucking fuck is this they just made her sympathetic and sansa looks like a cold scheming asshole which is not the character I love’, so like... where is the truth? the truth is that dnd decided to go with that shit ending where maybe 5% was grrm’s thing (I mean the small council made of cripples bastards and broken things is a grrm thing, how they get there.... no) and dany didn’t feature in it and they didn’t know how to finish and they went with that also because they knew most fake feminist press was rallying behind the ‘sansa as queen in the north who needs no man’ bullshit storyline so what the fuck let’s just go with that, and like.... again: as someone who doesn’t gaf about dany in the books, that was just not it period

tldr: s8 sansa makes sense maybe if we take her as a separate character who has nothing to do with her book self and that dnd wrote to be cersei lite except slightly more likable, but her actions make no sense, her writing makes no sense and hasn’t since they gave her theon’s fucking sl in S5 and there is literally nothing past episode 8x02 except maybe four scenes that actually makes any shred of narrative sense as an adaptation and within the show’s context, since a lot of stuff is basically characters contradicting each other. I said what I said. /shrug

[jackoshadows]

Say what you will about Sansa in the show, even though I disagree and think she’s an awesome character and is one of my faves in the show. But what’s with the bashing of Sansa in the books? She’s also a great main character in them. She’s compassionate, intelligent and her inner strength after enduring horrible abuse for the past few years is admirable. I’m excited to see how her arc will go in Winterfell.

I mean, that’s my subjective opinion about a fictional character based on her relatability, characteristics and actions in the books. People are allowed to not like characters right? And IMO, my posts on book Sansa are not exactly ‘bashing’ - rather, its about the actual character in the books versus a fanon made up version of her that some of her fans keep stating as fact. If you think talking about GRRM’s Sansa is ‘bashing’ …. well then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The reason I end up writing so much about Sansa is because her fans keep insisting on shoving her into everything, making the story all about her, insert her into relationships where she does not belong, take away from other characters to give to her etc. This has had the unfortunate side effect of me writing quite a few Sansa posts, the irony of which has not been lost to me 😂

My rambling thoughts on book Sansa under the cut…

I don’t even really dislike Sansa in the books. I have quite a few mutuals and people I follow who love book Sansa and her story and that’s totally fine. Different tastes and all that. And while I loathe the badly written Mary Sue propped up by other characters on the show, I am indifferent to book Sansa. I found her annoying and unrealistically naive in the first book and boring in the later ones. Tbh, I could not care less about the Vale Lords or Sansa organizing feasts in the Vale. I don’t think she’s all that important in the books in the grand scheme of things and GRRM’s original outline only confirms that.

Basically, I don’t care all that much about the character.  And funnily enough, neither do many of her self-proclaimed super fans considering they keep attributing the qualities, characteristics, relationships, plots and themes of other characters to Sansa. My posts are mainly about addressing this disparity.

Number one Sansa fans David Benioff and Dan Weiss are prime examples of this. They give interviews talking about how great a character Sansa is compared to her supposedly ‘one-dimensional adventure seeking’ sister Arya… and then they pretty much give Show Sansa  Arya’s book plots, themes and narrative arcs. Show Sansa’s story arc is a patch-work of plots from book Jeyne Poole, Arya, Jon, Stannis, Theon, Bran etc.

For reference here is a recent post from @circe1fanatic,

https://circe1fanatic.tumblr.com/post/190902121511/ew-interview-whenever-i-read-posts-about-how-more#notes

https://ew.com/article/2015/04/26/game-thrones-sansa-ramsay-interview/

where D&D admit that they find book Jeyne Poole’s story more entertaining than Sansa Stark’s. They think the story in the North is more important compared to what Sansa is doing in the Vale - and dumped their fave there to give her a more important role on the show.

Sansa does not stand out in any special way in the books. Your description of her here is a perfect example of that - ‘compassionate and intelligent’. There are several other main characters who have proved to be more compassionate than her. Even attempted child murderer Jaime Lannister has demonstrated compassion in the books. Intelligent? Book Sansa is still being manipulated and led around the nose by LF and made a correct guess that one time about Lyn Corbray being on LF’s payroll. Her peers in the meantime have become leaders, rulers, FM, greenseers and are actively changing and influencing the world around them. 

In a lot of ways she is superfluous in terms of skill sets. Jon, Bran, Dany, Arya, Tyrion all know politics as well. Unlike the show, the books don’t give only one specific skillset to one character. In the show, they designated Bran - warg, Arya - killer, Jon - military man, Sansa - politician. That’s not how it works in the books. Bran, Arya, Jon are all wargs. Jon is a savvy politician and diplomat. Arya has learned FM skills of manipulation and detecting emotions. Bran has ruled.  Arya has learned how the North works from Ned. Jon has played the game, outwitting the Karstarks.Sansa can learn at being underhanded from LF, I guess.

One reason for why Book Sansa is popular in fandom is because she is still in many ways a blank slate. While her peers are actively moving the plot forward, she stagnates as a prisoner and pawn, stuck with giving us descriptions of marriages, feasts and a view into other characters like the Tyrells. That’s why it’s easy to imprint on her the desires and expectations of the fandom and why she is the subject of a lot of fanfiction. 

This is why she is often seen as this great queen, great ruler, great player of the game, expert politician etc. - despite having done nothing at all and despite GRRM’s actual rulers being human beings who make mistakes and have flaws and can only learn to lead through doing and experience. It’s the same reason she’s the fandom bicycle when it comes to shipping - the character is traditionally beautiful and is into romance. It’s why nonsense like ‘Jonsa’ exists.

Book Sansa must indeed be appreciated for her inner strength to endure and withstand abuse - just like Arya, Dany and Jeyne Poole endured their abuse with great strength. Consider Jeyne Poole - got trapped in KL because Sansa tattled all her father’s plans to Cersei. Send to LF’s brothel since she was not a Stark like Sansa. Then send off to Ramsay Bolton to be raped and tortured. And still have the presence of mind to escape with Theon. I do indeed admire her strength. All their strengths.

Sansa was a vain, selfish, snobby brat with lofty ideals in book one and by tattling to the enemy - because she wanted to be queen - she loses her father, gets stuck in KL as a political prisoner and realizes the error of her ways. In later books, Sansa tries her best to help others including poor Dontos and that’s a compliment to her that she’s changing for the better and trying to help the little guy like Arya tried to help Mycah in book one.

She now understands that fairy tales are not real, there are no true knights in reality, beauty/appearances are not everything, appreciates her home and family more, and even finds herself attracted to the Hound. She’s lady like with courtly manners and after seeing her interact with KL nobles, Tyrion thinks that she would have done well as Joffrey’s queen.

Currently she is enmeshed in LF’s plots and learning from him in the Vale. She wants to go home, she wants to be loved for herself and not for her claim. Can she outwit LF at his own game and still be Sansa Stark. One cannot play the game by being honorable. Even Jon Snow was breaking his oaths playing the game at the Wall. Would Sansa go along with murdering her little cousin to gain power in the Vale? Would she go against her family in the North or support them? Sansa was originally created as a foil to Arya and as someone who causes conflict among the Starks. Is that where we are still headed or will her character head in a different direction in the books? The show depicts her as being self serving and LF like in the end. I am not sure if this is a reflection of the book character. We will have to wait for GRRM to write the books to find out.

But yeah. I got into this series as a fantasy fan and hence my investment is with the characters involved in the fantastical - Jon, Arya, Dany, Bran - and I don’t really care one way or another about Sansa.