#there are stranger things like gay people...for example vecna

[nobylerdoubt]

Hiii, I love gay Mike truthers, but how do you interpret Finn saying El is Mike's first romantic feelings towards someone?

As a general rule I don't pay much mind to cast interviews, because of a variety of reasons:

The information that cast can give away about the show is very controlled. Especially information that could spoil future seasons.

Cast opinions don't have as great of an impact on the show as the narrative that the show runners, writers, and producers. In good shows, including Stranger Things, the actors do get a good amount of input on their characters. We know Maya and Jamie got a lot of input on Robin and Henry/Vecna/001, so I would assume Finn, Millie, and Noah got input too - however at the end of the day they don't get the final say. For example while it's said that Maya was the one to make the decision or give the input to have Robin be a lesbian - Maya herself has shut this down and said that the Duffers brought that to the table and had probably planned on Robin being a lesbian very early on in the process.

This being said though - I do have my thoughts about this.

For one, as far as casual fans and viewers believe, Mike does have romantic feelings for El, and it would be weird from that audience's perspective for Finn not to say that. I think him trying to talk around or avoid saying Mike has romantic feelings for El would tip people off that that maybe isn't the case.

Secondly - I think from Mike's perspective he thinks he does have romantic feelings for El. His relationship with El is different from his relationship with his friends like Lucas and Dustin, or even Max. With those three he can be more brash and sarcastic, while with both Will and El he softens his edges. He knows what El's been through, and for a long time now he's been someone El can depend on. It's the same with Will, but one of them is a girl, and one is a boy.

Platonic vs Romantic vs Familial feelings can sometimes be hard to differentiate. It's not as cut in stone as we'd like it to be. A great in-show example of this is Robin and Steve - I think most of us accept that they're more than just 'best friends', but obviously at least Robin doesn't have romantic attraction to Steve (I obviously have some more fanon-centric ideas of their relationship, but I'll stop here because this is about as far a canon goes). I think a big art of why we have this dynamic between those two is to show how blurred the lines can be with the true nature of feelings.

So with the idea that Mike has this comphet storyline, two people who he has these protective/tender feelings for, even if they're slightly different. He has no other basis for what romantic attraction feels like, and through logical deduction with input from the heterosexual society that he lives in, he's deduced that these feelings he has for El are romantic feelings. But as he gets older, he starts to call this logic into question.

[lit3rally-m1ke-whlr]

guys I accidentally deleted the essay I wrote in my drafts bc I’m an idiot (I’m crying) so I’m just gonna summarize in less words bc whatever I’m not typing several more paragraphs on this. Anyway I just had to say that I feel like there’s an ableism problem in the Stranger Things fandom. Either that or this fandom just doesn’t like when characters show obvious neurodivergent traits. We see this with El being either infantilized or deemed annoying by fans when she’s clearly developmentally impaired and autistic because she struggles with understanding social cues and just wants to be normal and fit in like everyone else. She was raised in a lab, obviously she’s going to be immature and not have a strong handle on her emotional responses to things, and you don’t have to like her but it kinda sucks that she’s being hated for these things when I can relate to her so much. We also see this with Mike, and I feel like the people calling him the worst character are forgetting he’s literally just a teenage boy dealing with trauma. Like it’s as if they were never a teenager before because trust me I was just like Mike at that age if not worse. I’ll admit I used to hate him too but maturing is realizing the reasons people dislike Mike can easily be explained by either internalized homophobia or neurodivergence. He’s a bad friend? It’s because he’s trying so hard to appear straight and struggles to balance his relationships in a healthy manner, and he often speaks before thinking about how what he’s saying comes across to others, which is something many autistics/ people with ADHD do, not because we mean to hurt others but we can often be blunt or brutally honest and come across as rude (or even just lash out when we feel attacked or hurt as a way to defend ourselves but it often comes out harsher than we want it to) in my experience. He’s a bad boyfriend? He’s actually not and even then it’s because he’s gay and not in love with El but just doesn’t want to lose her. Besides he doesn’t have a great model for what a loving relationship looks like because of his parents so he may not be able to differentiate between romantic and platonic love and stays in a relationship that he’s clearly not happy in because of societal pressure to appear straight and it would be suspicious (in his mind) if they broke up because a) El literally is the coolest girl on the planet, how could he not love her and b) he loses his cover and people might start to notice and question his lack of attraction to girls. But not only that, he clearly struggles with describing and expressing his emotions or recognizing those of others (aka alexythemia) which is common in autistic people. So if he didn’t notice El’s obvious discomfort at the skating rink that’s probably why, and it’s also why he couldn’t tell her he loved her (bc it was a lie but I digress).

But perhaps the best example and the reason I decided to make this rant post is Robin’s character in s4. I remember seeing so many people saying that once the writers decided to make her lesbian they realized they didn’t know what to do with her character, some even going as far as to say they made her ditzy and stripped her of her coolness, which basically proves my point about y’all (as in the fandom in general) not liking ND people because god forbid we unmask around you, it’s no wonder so many of us feel afraid to be our true selves in front of other people. It’s almost as if she was hiding behind a persona to seem more normal and not draw unwanted attention to herself because she’s a lesbian, and once she came out to Steve and was accepted she… didn’t have to do that anymore? She felt more comfortable and safe around him to show her true personality? I don’t know but there’s something off about the way people are acting like she’s suddenly dumb or just there for comedic effect in s4 when she’s literally been so useful like she’s the one who realized music could save victims from being possessed by vecna. She’s literally the same except now she’s out to someone and she gets nervous when it comes to girls she likes, big fucking deal. Not only is this mischaracterization ludicrous and flat out wrong but it’s quite upsetting to see as someone who can relate to Robin in season 4 and is also autistic. Yes, not everyone with autism is like that but some are and to say she’s no longer cool because of it just enforces the perception of autistics as weird and unlikeable just for simply being themselves and makes us feel like we can only be liked or taken seriously if we keep the mask on.

look at me I said I would keep it brief this time but I still ended up writing an entire wall of text on this anyway lol thanks for coming to my Ted talk ig

[thetheoryisalie]

Who I Think is/isn't Safe from Dying in ST5 and Why (1/3)

As I think we are all painfully aware, the chances of all the main characters making it through season 5 alive are very slim. Personally, I think it would actually be disappointing not to see anyone die, because this is the final season, the final fight, and the stakes should be high. And right now, they aren't. At least not for most of the main characters. So these are some of my thoughts and predictions about who will/won't die potentially how and why.

SAFE:

Will:

SO many people think he's going to die, literally WHY? The entire point of ST from the very beginning has always been that Will is persistent and survives. There hasn't ever been a single season where he's really gotten a happy ending. We're meant to deeply emphasize with Will from season 1 and throughout the entire show, and actively hope and strive for his happiness. Sure, killing him off would be a plot twist, but it would also ruin 4 seasons worth of build up for his happiness. Also, he's (almost) "died" multiple times in the show (ST1 when they find the fake body, ST2 when he's possessed by the MF and the audience and the characters believe he will die when the MF does + Will willingly sacrificing himself) this means we've already seen most character's reactions to his death, and actually killing him wouldn't give us anything new. Additionally, we, as the audience, have already felt what his death would feel like, so doing it again also wouldn't hit as hard for people watching the show. Plus, Will is (currently) one of only two cannonically queer characters, and killing him specifically would just be the bury your gays trope, and we've already seen so many times that Stranger Things writers like to subvert the audience's expectations and go against (sadly) very common story lines (for example the straight baiting of Steve and Robin)

El:

I know a lot of people think she will sacrifice herself to close the UD again or to kill Vecna for good, but I just don't see that happening. I see the appeal, and I can imagine a season 5 where this happens, but personally it would leave Stranger Things feeling incomplete for me. Her entire arc is basically to become a part of society and to find family and find her place, just for her to die and never achieve any of that? I don't believe that. Also, I have my own theory for how I think the final fight of season 5 will go (which you can find here) but essentially it's about how Will will be the one to make the final strike, and that kind of contradicts an El-sacrifices-herself-to-kill-Vecna scene, and I really don't see another way they would just kill her off. She's too essential to the story line and to fighting Vecna, killing her off before to build up tension would actually be madness. Furthermore, this kind of falls into the same category as to why I don't think Will will die. We're meant to root for her happiness, and we all want to see her achieve it. While her death would be shocking and incredibly devastating, I don't think it's what anyone actually wants to see. We (basically) know Stranger Things 5 will have a happy ending, and I think El dying would be considered a bad ending.

Hopper:

I know that like Steve, Hopper is one of those people that have very strong self-sacrifice tendencies, and I think we can all agree that if Hopper were to die, it would be by sacrificing himself. But, much like with Will, we've already seen this happen once in ST3. Feelings have been felt, by audiences and in-universe characters, so it's just re-cycling what has already happened. Also, Hopper is the closest family that El currently has. Yes, she has Joyce and Will and Jonathan, plus all her friends as found family, but they've always put a strong emphasis on her connection to Hopper and their Father-Daughter bond, to the point that her relationship development with Will and Jonathan as siblings happens basically entirely off-screen between season 3 and 4 (I need more of those moments in S5, PLEASE). And I don't know this for sure, obviously, but with Hopper and El being paired up for St5, it's basically confirmed that El's arc in season 5 will heavily feature Hopper and their relationship. Ripping away another family member, arguably her closest one, from her just feels very unnecessary and cruel to me, when El's story line has always been centered around her finding her family and discovering who she is as a person. Also I think it would be a bit too expected, and thus wouldn't hit as hard as some others that I will mention later.

Max:

If they had wanted Max to die, the right point would have been at the end of ST4, when El is able to bring her back despite having been clinically dead for around one minute (El just wouldn't have succeeded). The entire reason why Max is targeted by Vecna (story telling wise), is to raise the stakes for the audience. It's to show that they're actually serious, and that main characters can and will get hurt in the next season, and that no one is safe. Ironically, this actually makes it pretty unlikely for Max to actually die in the show. Like mentioned before, it would be rehashing feelings, and not anything new, for audience and characters. Furthermore, if they did kill Max, realistically, it would either be while El is trying to help her consciousness come back to her body and failing, or after Max has woken up from her coma. The first option would just be a cheaper version of the death we could have gotten at the end of season 4, incredibly repetitive, and honestly kind of boring. And personally, I think the second one would just be very random. Sure, maybe she dies saving Lucas, or protecting El while she's vulnerable fighting Vecna in her mind or something, and it would be very sad and heart wrenching, but there are so many other characters that make more sense for that. Max, while an incredible friend, isn't really the kind of person to sacrifice herself. She's the kind of person to keep fighting, until there is no other possible option. Imagine her in the situation where Mike jumps off the cliff in season 1. Imagine some bullies have El held with a knife against her throat and are threatening to hurt her if Max doesn't jump. Do you honestly think she would jump? No, because Max would beat Troy's ass and probably throw him off the cliff. I know that you could argue that she kind of sacrifices herself to Vecna when she won't let anyone else be the forth victim, but her argument is also that, if she leaves, Vecna will just go after another person who doesn't know what they're dealing with. Which is true. The forth victim not being anyone the Party know or who is in the know about the UD and everything else would have made their plan to fight Vecna impossible. Also, she offers herself up because she does have the best chance of fighting Vecna off. She isn't giving in, she's placing herself in a role she can perform better that the other options for that role. Plus, again, the repetitiveness. We've already seen the character's grief for her, we've ourselves already grieved for her. We've watched her walk to impending doom to fight it, and any other death for her would undermine her for who she is as a character. It wouldn't make sense for her die any other way. But we've already seen it happen.

Mike:

This one depends entirely on if you believe that Byler (Mike and Will getting together) will happen in ST5. If you don't, it's looking really really bad for him. Currently, from a GA point of view, Mike is one of the most disliked characters. He's a shitty boyfriend and friend, for apparently no reason (if you don't ship byler, you kind of have to attribute this to bad writing). This means that killing him off wouldn't really hit hard, unless you make it a way to redeem his character. It also makes sense from what we know of his character, in fact, we've literally seen him do it before in ST1, when he jumps of a cliff for Dustin. That would make for a great parallel scene. Additionally, there's that scene in ST4 where he's shot in the head with an arrow (ik it's byler coded, but it's also literally a shot in the head) that you could take as foreshadowing for his death. If you do believe that byler will happen, the chance that Mike dies is pretty much 0 in my opinion. Not only would this stand in the way of a happy ending for Will, which, like I said, is basically the entire point and goal of the show, it would also be another" bury your gays" case. Honestly, Will's happiness is pretty much the entire reason why I am convinced Mike will not die in season 5, despite having the most potential for it. He's a self-sacrificial type character, we've seen this, plus he's the leader of the party. His death would hit so hard (after he's confirmed an incredibly well-written character), for everyone. But, we strive for Will's happiness here, and giving him what he wants, just to rip it away again and have Will end up miserably, makes no sense at all. (I do think Mike will be targeted by Vecna in ST5, he has so much trauma and also it would literally be the perfect way for them to reveal what's going on with Mike to the GA and for it to make sense to them)

Suzie:

Suzie, in my book, is very unlikely to die, purely because she probably won't even be near Hawkins during ST5. Honestly, I'm not even sure if we'll see her at all. I'd love for her to finally find out about what is going on and help remotely, but I don't think that's very likely, since there's so many other characters to focus on and, again, she's not even in Hawkins. I don't really see her coming to Hawkins either. I guess there could be a story line where she comes for Dustin's birthday, but it would definitely have to be without her parents knowing, and it just seems like too much on top of everything that will already be going on, plus we know all the story lines will be centered in Hawkins this season, so no way Dustin or other party members are going to visit her like in ST4. (I would love another duet scene though, the ST3 finale is my favourite finale of the show so far)

Vicky:

I debated listing her for this at all, since she's still a very minor character despite being Robin's love interest, but I think it's a given that we'll see more of her in ST5 and that she might even become part of the group in the know about everything. Now, I know ST writers are very good at making us care about a character despite them only being introduced that season (Eddie), but I don't think that with everything going on, all the loose plot points that need to be resolved this seasons, not to mention all the personal character arcs that need to happen, we'll have much time to care for another new character (+ we have the new kids that we will also need to be made to care about) like they did for Eddie in season 4. No doubt there will be the Chrissies of ST5 (characters that are introduced to be killed of), but Vicky already has another role (Robin's love interest) and thus doesn't fit that mold. She's also in the same boat as Will, while not confirmed queer, it's almost a given that she and Robin will get together this season. Furthermore, aside from Robin (and maybe Steve, kind of) none of the characters actually know or care about her that much, so her death would pretty much only affect Robin, who herself isn't one of the main characters. It just seems very unnecessary to me when there no doubt will be other characters (Chrissies) who will die to set the stakes.

___________________________________________________________

Sorry for uploading in parts, apparently the entire post is too long for tumblr to handle, so I figured splitting it up by category makes the most sense. Please tell me your opinions and theories, I'd love to hear them! (You can find part 2 here and part 3 here)

[yuniv-bluetea]

The Struggle

[cleradinel]

Genuine Q: how is the boys only sign a gay proof for Mike Wheeler and a sign that he isn’t bi? Isn’t he just saying “Boys Only” because they go into a men’s space? Like they weren’t gonna go into a women’s bathroom/locker room? And Lucas goes with them, so if that’s “gay Mike proof,” wouldn’t that make Lucas gay too? Saying “boys only” is not a gay thing either in general, lots of media has moments where straight male characters break off for “bro talk” or “just the guys” and it has nothing to do with their sexuality. Are guys not allowed to socialize with their gender without it being a queercoding clue? (Is it lesbian when girls go into the bathroom together?)

see i was debating the value of presenting my arguments because i truly don't know if you're up for civil discussing or not, but i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here.

dear anon. your first mistake here is watching and thinking of the show as one dimentional : aka, you think of mike as a person with free will figuring out how to go about trapping a dangerous murderous cunt inside a sauna. in a non meta way, in their world, it is absolutely what's happening, it's just mike stating "i figured something out, will, lucas, follow me." but a tv show is two dimentional : there is a meta layer to the dialogues, to the set design, to the character blocking etc. there are a lot of thoughts put into those decisions, and writers have a lot of fun figuring out how stuff something that on surface level is innocent and devoid of importance with double meaning. i'll give you one example, when will is encouraging el when she's called to do a presentation for class, you can read the word "HENRY" above his neck. in THEIR world, this is just a random name that happens to have been written on a piece of paper and stuck to the wall after discussing whatever henry dude will and el's curiculum asked the teachers of california to talk about. in OUR world, as people watching a tv show, the set design decision to place it here, the director's decision to have the cameraman do this specific shot and to place noah in this specific way is foreshadowing. it's a hint. it's a meta detail. it SHOULD mean something to you. another example ! jason telling lucas "you first hangover feels like you're going to split in two" is not about jason knowing he was quite literally going to end up split in two, he is just recounting his experience with his first hangover to lucas. to US, in a meta way, it's significant, because it was foreshadowing, it was a hint, it was MEANINGFUL. it wasn't a random choice of words from the writers that coincidentally ended up lining up with jason's death down the line. it was INTENTIONAL. jason as a person was not saying anything more than just "man hungovers are a real bitch lol", jason as a tv show character was quite literally telling us how he was going to meet his demise. another one : max in the school's bathroom. there is a graffiti on the wall with "i see you" and a little doodle of two blue eyes. in their world, whoever wrote this was obviously not doing this in vecna's name. it's a random person who randomly decided oto have some fun and graffiti this particular thing. in a meta way, this is referencing vecna. it's not a coincidence. especially considering this is a max scene and her arc is very closely linked to vecna this season. do you see where i'm going with this ? mike in hawkins indiana 1985, saying "i have an idea, boys only." is just letting lucas and will know that he figured out how to stop billy and that this plan requires going somewhere max and el can't follow. in their world, that's it ! but in our world, in the double meaning way (which is a very real thing, if you insinuate the stranger things dialogue, or most of cinema dialogues are "not that deep" you are quite literally insulting writers everywhere, like. straight up), in the "this is a character who's words are chosen by someone else with purpose" way, this particular phrasing is meaningful. he didn't say "i have a plan, follow me to the men's locker room guys". the writers chose a specific phrasing. it's even more obvious recontextualized : mike JUST fought with will, who told him his obsession with growing up was ruining them and the party. mike, affected by those words tries to figure out what that whole argument and his own reaction to it means to and for him. he has an idea to figure it out, and it is to let himself wander into "what if... i was..." territory as we do see in the second half of S3. (i would include screencaps but i can't be bothered rn)

mike's reaction at the end of s3 aka the conclusion of his S3 arc (in 3 parts : pushing dnd and queerness away because it's not socially acceptable -> why am i even doing this ? why am i acting like this -> right. i'm actually gay and terrified to be.) goes something like this : a scene flirting with will, followed by a scene of el kissing him and not reciprocating, followed by a scene that is shot in the same way a scene in which a character realizes something shows us the conclusion that mike has come to about himself : yes, he is gay. his own theory about himself actually being into boys was the correct theory. i think that answers the second part of your ask. someone choosing for mike to lay out his plans with this choice of words at this particular moment in the story is heavy queercoding. had it been dustin (random choice, he wasn't even there), whose narrative is simply not mike's, it would have been meaningless. it wouldn't even have been worded like that. in the case of mike, because it is mike and because of the nature of his storyline, it isn't.

[sevensided]

What popular byler meta do you think is the least likely to happen?

Literally anything related to 'Will created the Upside Down'.

I get why it's popular, and it's partly because we want Will to have power. But the idea that Will has powers/has the power of imagination runs contrary to the show's narrative.

A hugely important component of Stranger Things more broadly is the 'Reds under the bed' idea: that dangerous things lurk in the most unexpected of places. Stranger Things is about the subversion of the 80s suburban middle-class. It draws on many of the anxieties prominent in this period around social cohesion, normalcy, and political conservatism. When people call ST a love letter to the 80s they mean it in a visual sense; however, it's clearer to me that this is a show dedicated to exploring and uprooting many of the narrative columns that buttressed this historical period.

S1 is very clearly a lost child story. When Joyce asks about the '1%' of children who don't just run away from home, that's it. That is the hinge of the narrative. Because what happens to Will is so otherwordly it is impossible to categorise beyond the realm of fiction (which is what the Party do, when they use D&D to understand what has happened to their friend).

If Will - a character coded, and now confirmed in canon, to be gay - is presented or implied to have created the subterranean monstrosities that Hawkins is eventually subjected to, that is homophobic. Particularly in the 80s context, where 'gay diseases' like AIDs symbolicaly blurred the lines between sexual orientation and physical manifestation of illness. That the Upside Down is presented as a plague in S2 is the obvious extension of this logic.

Fundamentally, Stranger Things is about what happens when unusual (or strange) things happen to apparently normal people. Not a new premise - but that is what the story is about.

I also have a real bone of contention with any theory about Will having disorders and/or being secretly evil, or whatever. I could go into this in further depth, but really, I just hate these with a passion. Putting aside the stigmatisation of mental illnesses like, for example, DID, to conflate something like DID with the evil of the Upside Down or even Vecna is just... come on.

Ditto anything related to Will being Henry, or Henry being similar to Will, and so that means Will could be Vecna 2.0... or whatever. Again, are we watching the same show? The whole point is that Will faces the same social barriers as someone like Henry but he does not succumb to the darkness. Will is the light: he is a Cleric. He literally fights the darkness.

I could go on but I'll stop before I get too spicy. I can pull up some old posts that I have made about this very topic, if you like. Just let me know. :)

[cringengl]

Vecna, Will Byers and the importance of family in Stranger Things

We all know that family is important in Stranger Things, so much time is spent on giving El a family, which is juxtaposed to her 'family' at the lab. The reason the name "Papa" is so chilling is because it's an affectionate term that is being used for an abuser. Found family is especially important, not only shown through El, but Steve as whilst he might have started becoming a better person at the end of s1, his character development is truly shown through characters such as Dustin and Robin.

So what does this mean for Will and Vecna??

We all know of the parallels/similarities between Vecna and Will, such as them both being described as "sensitive", their mindflayer drawings, their connection to the UD as well as just looking similar. Although some believe that these similarities may be hinting towards a villain arc for Will in s5, I believe the opposite. This is because of the big glaring difference between the two characters- their family.

The Byers and the Creels are the complete opposite.

Joyce is a single mother, Jonathan is described in s1 (and in Stranger Things Puzzle Tales) as a "Lonley Freak", whereas Will is bullied for being gay (even if he hasn't come out), even Lonnie is shown to be living in a run down house with a young girlfriend. The Byers therefore are almost the opposite of a picture perfect family. Despite this the Byers are a loving family, who are always there for eachother. There are so many examples if this that I'm bound to miss a great one, but Joyce and Jonathan doing everything possible to get Will back safe despite being told he was dead, Jonathan and Will building Castle Byers and how Jonathan is always there for Will, the stories Jonathan and Joyce tell Will to stop his possession and Jonathan telling Will that he'll always love him in s4. Therefore, whilst the Byers don't look like an ordinary family, they love eachother like a family should.

The Creels are a picture perfect family. Their big house seems perfect, they have parents that are together with two children, everyone is dressed in nice clothes, it's the perfect example of the nuclear family. However, during Vecna's monologue, he says that the reason he hated his family was because they were awful people hiding behind a front, such as Victor making that awful mistake during the war but pretending to be a normal father. Vecna despises people conform, put on a facade, lie and so he is now trying to gain power to change the world, for what he thinks is for the better.

Whilst the Creels may have been living a lie, the Byers have not. Will has constantly shown himself to be truthful.

He can't lie to Mike about what he rolled in s1 ep1.

He is bullied for wearing bright clothes, but us not deterred from it (showing that he is being his true self).

Will, Mike, Dustin and Lucas are true to their nerdiness by dressing up for Halloween.

Will doesn't care for the expectations of growing up and doesn't try to conform to them in s3 by being the only one who still wants to play DnD instead of getting older.

Will even says to El that Mike doesn't like it when people lie to him, insinuating that Will doesn't lie to Mike at all.

(This is why the painting is going to be such a big deal in s5, because it's the first time that we really see Will lie)

But what does the difference between Will and Vecna's family mean for s5??

Since family plays such a big role in Stranger Things as well as themes like lying and conformity I feel that Will is going to be almost a mirror image to Vecna, in that they may be similar, but that doesn't mean that they are destined to go down a certain path. Vecna may point out all the injustices that Will has had to face and say "join me to create a better world since we are so alike", but with the love from his new found family, the Hopper Byers, Vecna will be defeated mainly by (and most likely by) Will and El.

Because El's storyline is also about family, I believe that is also what will fuel her to defeat Vecna.

Will and El therefore show how important family is and the support of the found family within Stranger Things may be the key to defeating Vecna, someone who never got to experience this.

WILL'S POWER IS HIS HEART

[willel]

Hey fellow WillEl enjoyers. I've got a question for you. I'm always wondering this myself and I wonder what you guys think.

Does the general audience know about WillEl?

By general audience, I mean the casual viewer who will watch the season once, enjoy it a bunch, and then wait years before watching Stranger Things again. AKA, most of the audience who watches Stranger Things probably.

These people probably have mini theories of their own as they watch each season, but they don't pick it apart piece by piece like an average internet sleuth would. After all, they have a handful of other tv shows to watch when Stranger Things isn't airing.

A great example of a casual viewer vs an internet sleuth: An average every day tumblrite would've noticed that Will fell somewhere on the LGBT+ spectrum alllll the way in Season 1 episode 1. It took the general audience until season 3 episode 3 to start arguing about whether he was gay or just a "late bloomer". It took the general audience until season 4 to understand and accept Will was gay (even though there's still some hold outs for... some reason).

So when you think about WillEl theories, such as they somehow knew each other before season 1... or Will might have powers too to help El defeat Vecna... or even just peeking behind the curtain a little bit and understanding Will and El are surprising close... do YOU think the general audience can see that?

Do you think if Will really does have powers and helps defeating Vecna once and for all, the general audience will be shocked and surprised like it's a plot twist?

Do you think the general audience remembers that El recognized Will before anyone else even told her about him? Or that they were able to communicate in the void when others couldn't?

My opinion: The answer is no. I've watched almost every YouTube reactor watch Stranger Things. I think maybe only 2 of them have glimpsed the WillEl potential. The rest are so oblivious that they don't include any WillEl moments in their YouTube edits. They either skip right past them or have absolutely no thoughts or feelings at all when they look at them.

To me, the WillEl moments are SO understated that it almost feels like it's on purpose. Like they don't want the general audience to notice until it's time. (I personally disagree with such methods but eh.) They have used this technique before, in season 4 no less. They purposely did not focus on Henry Creel when Victor Creel told his story. They dropped plenty of hints that it was him, but they purposely glossed over Henry completely during Victor's flashbacks and then filled in the details of it much later.

So, what do you think?

Do you think if Will really does have powers and helps defeating Vecna once and for all, the general audience will be shocked and surprised like it's a plot twist?

Do you think the general audience remembers that El recognized Will before anyone else even told her about him? Or that they were able to communicate in the void when others couldn't?

[skidar]

Unrequited love is not queer bait :)

Just cause your ship didn’t happen doesn’t mean that its queer bait. Fan about it all you want but cannon and fannon are a ven diagram. Don’t throw a tantrum when its not a complete circle.

Queer characters existing outside of a relationship is not queer bait :) Go figure, queer people CAN be single AND interesting (and still queer!).

If your end game for all queer characters is to shoe horn them into a queer relationship to ‘prove’ they are queer (see also: ‘prove they are queer ‘enough’ for you) then your taste is just boring af sorry not sorry.

Coding characters as queer, using it to gain profit, then sidelining them all plot to spotlight straight leads is queer bait *IF* the show is marketed as being queer off the bat. That’s a bait and switch.

See queer bait example: Marvel unleashes its first openly gay character in Avengers Endgame! Then gives us a single sentence from a nameless side character with less than a minute of screen time. *marketed as gay to draw views, sidelined and let down as its completely insignificant and able to be easily cropped from the plot*

See example of not queer bait: *Stranger Things Season 4 Volume 2 Spoilers*

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Will Byers pining for his best friend but knowing it may never be isn’t queer bait. Will is still queer. This is something Will struggles with from the beginning of S4 to the last episode. It’s heartbreaking to love a friend that doesn’t love you back. Your dearest and oldest friend at that. It can make you feel like one wrong step you can lose them forever. In one fell swoop you lose not only the crush your heart aches for but the friend you so desperately want in your corner. Will struggles with direct communication because the thought of losing Mike is literal torture to him. This ENTIRE plot between them is so relatable to the experience of queer existence that the audacity to label it as queer baiting because ‘I didn’t get my ship dammit’ is baffling! This is literally so raw and emotional and accurate to the queer experience. Its not pure trauma porn, its anxiety and angst and deep love that makes these interaction HURT to witness but Will still loves Mike. Even if Mike will never love him back in the same way. Even when it hurts him to feel left out and sidelined in this next stage in their lives Will LOVES Mike and will never stop being his friend. Staying in his corner, filling him with hope and reassurance and helping him with El because dammit Will desperately hopes that Mike will have his back when and if Will ever does come out. And yet he’s hesitant because that fear is always there. They love you til they don’t. And its your best friend. And the stakes are SO high.

Byler not being ‘cannon’ in S4 is not queer bait. Its some of the deepest truth into queer existence I’ve seen on screen and even on the side among many plot threads and heartfelt moments this season it still touches home hard in a way no other character actions have.

And bless Jonathan for seeing his brother and loving him so much and REASSURING him that he will ALWAYS have HIM even if he’s got no one else. Do you have any idea what sort of lifeline that is? It was raw and messy and a massive relief for Will. A massive confidence stepping stone and the feeling that he is not suffering alone.

To reiterate, queer characters existing outside of queer relationships in shows/books is not queer bait. You’re still queer regardless of your relationship status. These stories need to be told too. It’s all in how its marketed and honestly, STS4′s marketing was pretty keyed in on the whole end of the world plot line, not Will’s dating life.

This is my two cents. Agree if you want or not but I just scrolled through way too many queer bait rants on my timeline and had to say something even if just to the great blue void.

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While we’re at it I thought vol 2 was pretty lackluster in terms of the SLOW AF villain monologues from Vecna that had me drumming my fingers impatiently to annoying cut scenes from all the characters in crisis.

Russia plot was the same, I wanted to get back to the action.

Don’t even talk to be about Eddie I still hurt...

ALSO I kept seeing this marketed as the last season so when it ended THERE and all these threads were yet to wrap up I was pretty ticked but now I see there’s a whole other season I guess??

Overall, I really did like season 4, I thought it was most riveting to watch since S2 cause the stakes felt so high. I’m excited to see what happens next season and I hope there’s lots more Erica and Robin cause I loved that they got more screen time this round.

[we-pay-for-everything]

I just watched part 1 of Stranger Things’ season 4 and need to say a few things:

The amount of shit that makes no sense in Stranger Things, and is just downright unbelievable, is honestly holding back the show. I feel like Stranger Things has great characters, an interesting story, and great cinematography, but it’s just not a brilliant, or even a great, show. It’s good, but that’s it. The writers are more interested in cool characters and monsters, and in the visuals of it all, than in lore and messaging. The show just feels a bit superficial when so little effort is put into keeping the plot tight and consistent. Each season I feel like I’m watching a different show, with different lore. Is it sci-fi or fantasy? I can’t understand.

Honestly, I don’t know the show super well, so I can’t comment too much on the lore, but I think my criticism is valid. I think the writers want the series to be fast-paced and exciting, full of brilliant and heroic characters, so none of it is believable. Instead of slowing feeding the characters hints so they work things out for themselves, the characters are constantly plucking these Eureka moments out of thin air. For example, Nancy heard a vague story about Victor Creel, a 70 year old asylum patient, and somehow thought he could be behind Vickie’s murder, so she chased this flimsily lead which magically lead her to real answers. And when her and Robin spoke to Victor they somehow put together that music could stop Vecna? And this is just one small example of all the hail marys this show pulled. Let’s not talk about the Russia plot... Murray is hilarious, but him taking out trained guards is hilarious in a totally different way.

It’s sad because the show has a lot of potential, but I feel like it’s lacking depth. And that’s not just because of the inconsistent world-building. What is the show’s message anyway? Is it to celebrate the geeks and freaks who don’t fit in? Isn’t that a cliché at this point? And the characters are so perfect in general that it’s hard to truly connect with them. The most realistic characters are actually the most disliked ones. Will, Mike, Lucas, even Jonathan... their not-so-cool behavior and struggles are actually fitting of teenagers. They’re relatable - they’re flawed and make the wrong choices but they learn from their mistakes; you can understand where they’re coming from and know they’re great kids regardless. I wish Mike and Will hadn’t essentially been forgotten by the writers because the cooler and more entertaining characters are back in Hawkins. I love Steve, Nancy, Robin, Dustin, Max, Eddie, and Lucas too, but those kids (plus Jonathan and his buddy Argyle) deserved a bit more screentime. I wanted to know why Will looked so sad. Sometimes it felt like he was in love with Mike or something? Or Eleven, but I think they’re just siblings. Eleven said Will was acting weird because he maybe liked someone, but I don’t know how true that is (Eleven is very naive). It doesn’t seem true, but we are a love-obsessed society, so, even though Will seems to be more assexual - which explains why he isn’t interested in dating and values friendship so much - I doubt Stranger Things will let him be assexual. But I felt for the kid and wanted to know what was going on with him... Was it just loneliness? Being forgotten by his friends? (Edit: I didn’t know so many people shipped Will and Mike? Will being gay definitely makes sense, but I don’t remember the other seasons well enough to comment on it. Also, the longing stares and the painting could be platonic, even if, again, a show like this wouldn’t let it be that way.)

Another thing I disliked a lot is the lack of diversity. There are very few poc in the show and they don’t exactly have the biggest storylines. Lucas is one of the least important kids (not this season though), and his sister is still just a supporting character; there were a few black cops, but of the two FBI agents one died a hero, and the other was tortured and gave away Eleven’s location... All the major new characters are white except for Argyle... A bit more diversity would’ve been much appreciated.

Lastly, Steve and Nancy... What. The. Hell? Did I miss the signs? Because I don’t recall Steve being interested in Nancy at all, or even Nancy being interested in Steve? She’s with Jonathan, yet the writers are pushing this narrative between her and Steve, which frankly just came out of nowhere? Is it because they dated first, and the writers want Steve to end up with someone, and clearly couldn’t give less of a shit about Jonathan? Because, if so, Nancy dating Steve, cheating on Steve with Jonathan and falling for Jonathan, only to end up with Steve again, is about the least romantic storyline I could think of and just makes me respect Nancy less. She loves Jonathan, and even if they break up, she doesn’t seem to care for Steve like that? Or she didn’t seem to? But she did notice his naked chest and jump into Watergate for him (because he was probably going to die), so I guess they’re in love now! (Sarcasm) The writers are just forcing this storyline on them for some reason, and I was honestly blindsided. I absolutely hate it and hope Nancy and Jonathan work it out. You have no idea, this Nancy and Steve thing is really bothering me. I cannot understand what the writers were thinking, but I guess I’m one of the few people who like Jonathan? I always like the brave and kind, yet kind of boring and judgmental, white dudes in shows. I don’t get why people dislike them so much. I get that Jonathan is such a straight, white dude sometimes - and that’s never a compliment - and that Steve is so much cooler than him, but Jonathan’s a good guy too, and he’s realer than Steve. I love Steve the most, but Nancy and Jonathan made sense.  

Also, I think Joyce and Hopper are much cuter as friends, and lowkey like the thought of Joyce and Murray more. I’m a bit tired of this will they-won’t they thing between Joyce and Hopper. Him deciding he’s better off without Joyce is such a cliché too. I hate those types of storylines.

[highly-important]

I just finished Stranger Things season 4 (so spoilers ahead! Keep scrolling)

What I liked: -Everyone? I kind of wish every TV show could have a cast of 50 charismatic characters. I think its kind of incredible that the large cast and the shock and awe of the larger story line don’t cancel out each of the character’s charm.

-Max is such a great character, played by a fantastic actress. I liked this message about seeking out the light in the darkness. Focus on the present, make plans for the future, and allow yourself to be vulnerable with the ones you love and can trust. Her monologue was just stellar and that scene elevated something that was at the risk of becoming rote or mechanical.

-Robin’s wardrobe

-The slow reveal of Vecna’s identity paid off well.

What I didn’t like: -Psychic battles. If this show is going to have more psychic battles, the Duffers have to come up with ... like a mechanic or something? It felt like there was no rhyme or reason to who has the upper hand. I was going to write something about the Max / Furiosa battle in Fury Road, and how it works as a fight because you can always track who has the upper hand in the fight. Whoever is wining or losing in the psychic battle felt arbitrary.

-Joyce is fantastic but she was undeserved by this story. I wanted to see her do arts and crafts. I also wish some other characters got more to do, like the way Robin’s romantic plot was sidelined.

-Eddie .... that end was so pointless. So that happened to ... prove a point to himself? Because it gave the Duffers a free pass to keep raising the stakes of his story without actually having to wrap anything up? It felt like a redemption death, but why did this character need to redeem himself? Maybe its because of the ways this season compares him to Steve, that ultimately only the purer character can make it out. I dunno, I write more about this later.

-The cosmic horror vibe diminishes as more things are explained, but I guess that was bound to happen. Maybe if ST went the other direction it would have felt like the ultimate nothingness of Lost

Controversial takes:

-I actually like Will’s depressing story. Very relatable to my own high school experience. (Will sobbing while looking out the window was a little much though) As alone and isolated as Will feels, there is someone looking out for him - Jonathan. I was really moved by the way Jonathan sees Will for the way he really is, accepts him for it, and gently reminds Will he’s always there for him. For the past five to ten years, the message straight people generally are broadcasting about being a queer ally is “I actually don’t care that you’re gay, its not a big deal to me.” And ... its nice... but .. being gay is a big deal for a lot of people, and a lot of unique problems stem from it. It honestly feels really nice to see a character say “hey, I see you, I care about you, and I’m listening.” (This is also why I am such a big fan of Tori on Heartstopper. I think both characters are a new model for how I want to see allyship shown in media.) Don’t get me wrong, I think the queer rep on this show is still disappointing, and I think people who are really mad at it are valid.

-I have feelings about Dustin’s story line about father figures but I’m too tired to unpack. I liked that it doesn’t hit you over the head with it like some of the other things on this show.

-Stranger Things is very conservative with a soft c, in a way that a lot of media we see today is. I don’t mean the Conservative of modern political discourse, but the kind of social conservative that is interested in preserving traditional social structures like family, capitalism, or the suburban neighborhood. (I haven’t read any of these, but a few articles on this topic link, link, link, link) This is why the Upside Down is a vision of suburbia destroyed, but there are lots of other examples of how the monsters relate to anxieties around the social order changing, or characters are rewarded or punished for following the social order.

Being an outsider was always a theme on ST, but its especially prominent this season, interwoven in the stories of El, Max, Will, Eddie, Lucas, Vecna, and some of the others as well. Stranger Things realizes outsiders see the world through a different perspective: for instance, Eddie has the great quote “”It’s forced conforming. That’s what’s killing the kids. That’s the real monster.” And later, Vecna gives a monologue where he talks about how he loathes the manufactured reality everyone is living in ”All while performing in a silly, terrible play, day after day.” Nancy’s big moment seeing Steve differently is when he talks about wanting a big, traditional family. Robin is cool because she’s not a threat to this. Hopper and that hot Russian prisoner find common ground in their love of their family. I think this is why the show decided to kill Eddie off, because at the end of the day he is still a threat to this system because he takes it “too far.”

But ultimately it is about the “ideal” or “correct” way of living, the threats to that way of living, and how deviating from that life can cause torment.

[burtonbabygirlguster]

No worries about it taking long! i hope you feel better soon and your computer starts working again 

of course! thats so stupid for people to be rude just because you have oong messages, screw them.  I love talking about my interests and rambling, so I know how it sucks total ass when people get mad or make fun of you that :/  especially when it’s on text, you pretty much need to be as specific and long and precise as possible so people don’t take it the wrong way or something- and like i said anyway, their absolute assholes if they're being rude to someone whos just expressing themselves.

I haven't interacted with the fandom from the beginning either, I got into it at some point last year, but a large sum of the fandom is, like you said, seriously uncomfortable.  And it’s definitely an issue if any other fandom, especially known bad ones, though i haven't watched/been ‘in touch’ with riverdale- but anyway- if no other fandom makes it a fun game to bash others, only stranger things, that's like, huge issue.

I'm really glad you were happy to be able to peacefully interact with me and not be scared or conscious of everyone else. I love these conversations and how we discuss everything :)

And yeah, it was so confusing seeing all these people hate on cosplayers and being nerds, as if the show’s main characters aren't nerds who cosplay

Like, if you cosplayed and showed any of them, they'd prob become huge friends, because the more nerds and freaks, the better

And you're absolutely right about homophobia.  It’s running rampant in the Stranger Things fandom

“It was the 80s, nobosys even gay” “They'd hate crime you”

“Robin actually is in a lesbain phase, she likes steve and doesn't know it” “Wills just a little gay brat who will end up dead anyway”

“Not everything has to be gay”

Ect, ect…

Thankfully, on the video, most of it were jokes about the kiss, but not in a rude way, in a “never let them know your next move” way, though considering it was some 3k comments..I'm probably very wrong.

And you pretty much summed it up with James, just take Stonathan vs harringrove vs steddie, and steddie vs jargyle as an example. 

Harringrove = two conventionally attractive men

Decently popular

Steddie = two conventionally attractive men

Super popular and loves

Stonathan = only one conventionally attractive man

Primarily shat upon

Jargyle = no conventioianly attractive men

Barely any attention, despite having in canon what fanon steddie has

Notice all the popular, generally enjoyed ones happen to be 100% conventionally attractive men

Where the ones that are criticized or overshadowed are 0-50% conventionally attractive men

Coincidence, i think not

Jonathan is super cute and although i was never the hugest fan of his (or wills) haircut- he's still adorable and hot (and full of gender)

And the amount of people that will call charlie heaton and jonathan ugly in the worst ways is baffling.  It’s so frustrating to see people, that, just because they dont like a fictional charactorer, they go out of their way to comment about their actors appearance in seriously fucked up ways

But yeah, I also saw absolut;y nothing romantic between haringrove and steddie- no hate to anyone or anything, but yeah. Eddie knew Steve for what, five days tops? And billy..well, yeah.  But stonathan, with insane amounts of depth and possibilities, but has Jonathan of which is not conventionally attractive, is the least liked

And yeah, saying vecna is like steve, is a super exaggeration and grasping at nonexistent straws to hate

And LMFAO SO TRUE WITH THE DEMOGORGON AND STEVE

Mr Gorgan wanted a kiss and Steve NOT having that, like, that's his boyfriend! Time for violence!

people that only ship stonathan as a joke and think that the only thing about it is that it’d be funny but have absolutely no value other than that or make fun of people who ship it and treat it morally bad <<