#this was the reason why i love this show regardless of the showrunner sucking it

[iconicbuck]

Ladies and gentlemen, THE 118.

[geraltcirilla]

Your latest daisy/sousa gifset ? Gorgeous, is the quote you used from a showrunner chloe or is it like from someone in the fandom also ie agent carter, everyone was white like the two main female characters were right and so was everyone else, and I don't think it had anything to do with the time period there are shows set way before that are 1000% more inclusive like anne with an e or black sails also no lgbtq characters although that's an issue aos had as well

Thank you!! :’) The quote I used is from Maurissa Tancharoen from this interview with Hypable. I’ll go ahead and give you the entire Daisy portion of that interview because it’s filled with gold.

On the romantic side of things, Chloe Bennet (and several of her co-stars) couldn’t be happier with Daisy’s choice of Daniel Sousa as her partner.

“He’s so stable, and so supportive, and so willing, and so understanding of who she is,” Bennet says. “[Daisy needs] that kind of stability in her life, and that support. And I think it doesn’t hurt that he’s a strapping young man!”

“She has become such a kind of a power house, physically,” Bennet continues. “I love that he kind of brings her down to Earth a little bit.”

For Enver Gjokaj, Sousa’s relationship to Daisy’s power was a crucial factor in their developing bond.

“They don’t seem to have a lot of [things] in common,” he notes, “But the fact that he’s attracted to strong women, and that he’s worked with strong women in his past, and that’s who he is — I think that becomes the foundation for a relationship. The fact [that Daisy’s power is] not threatening to him at all, that that’s actually a positive, that… made total sense to me.”

“And [Gjokaj] played it with such a quiet confidence, and just you’re so grounded,” Bennet continues. “Sousa is so grounded in himself, and he’s not threatened by her as an entity and by Quake, and it actually finds it slightly amusing. which I think is really sweet, actually.”

Clark Gregg also expressed a certain relief at Daisy’s choice, which he feels reflects maturity on the part of friend and castmate Bennet.

“One of the things that happens, especially when you do play a character for 200 years as I have… is that the life and art blend together,” he says, noting that it was challenging to repeatedly “watch Chloe/Daisy go through these various things and get her heart broken, and have people die.”

So “to have Enver show up and create — recreate — the new version [of Sousa], dealing with different kinds of stuff, was just cool!” Gregg says. The character’s new incarnation on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. was “tough. Not calling attention to himself. It felt so real, and I love so much what he did, and the way that [he and Chloe] just kind of quietly backed into this thing that everybody has been rooting for. [It’s] such a testament to their work in the chaotic final season, and how lucky we were to get Enver. It’s just facts!”

For their part, showrunners Jeff Bell, Maurissa Tancharoen, and Jed Whedon felt it was critical that their cast of female characters be seen as much more than partners in relationships, regardless of how matters concluded.

“They’ve had relationships [but] we never defined them by that,” says Bell. “But Daisy hasn’t had great luck in the past, bad things that happened or it hasn’t worked out. And so when Enver showed up, it was more than we could have imagined. We’d hoped that they would have chemistry, and the fact that it worked so well was great.”

Bell also observes that even more significant than the romantic developments was Daisy’s re-formation of a new kind of family for herself.

It was important, he says to let Daisy’s sister “Kora come over at the end and [give] Daisy family to continue. So it wasn’t just ‘Now I have a boyfriend!’ It was like she had a new unit. I think that was something that happened organically through the force of the storytelling that was a nice thing that we hadn’t foreseen.”

“The whole drive of Daisy’s character arc was, she was in search for her identity. She was in search for her family and where she came from,” agrees Tancharon. “And what she stumbled upon was new one, and so at the end, it’s very clear that she is actually starting her own little family in space, with the man she loves and her actual sister.”

I really love this interview and I’ve loved EVERY interview the cast has done post-series. I don’t think I’ve ever shipped a couple quite so beloved by every single cast member, even people totally uninvolved like Clarke Gregg and Elizabeth Henstridge. This interview was especially sweet because Maurissa confirmed that Sousa and Daisy are in love, which we all though but it’s nice to get the showrunners backing that.

//

Re: Agent Carter, even when it comes to the female characters Peggy Carter was the only one listed as main cast. Peggy, Jarvis, Jack, Sousa, and Dooley are main cast, Angie, Dottie, and Ana are credited as reoccurring. And Angie was only in s1 (she made a brief cameo in s2 in a dream sequence), and Ana was only in s2. Only Dottie was in both seasons 1 and 2 and she was a villain. So I don’t think I can even give Agent Carter credit for having white women in the show. It’s really bad if you can’t even have white women in your main cast.

Agent Carter had an issue with lack of women, lack of BIPOC cast, and lack of LGBT characters (like you said AOS also has that last issue). The writers of the show actually claimed at the time (because even back then people were calling them out for this) that they were just being “truthful to the time period”, which we all know is a crock of shit. As you said BIPOC and LGBT didn’t suddenly spring into existence in the 2000s and lots of other period piece shows include them as characters. 

Also as I said in my previous post, the writers have this unsettling need to woobify and coddle bigots because “they’re a product of their time” and the writers are constantly justifying their behavior and actions and trying to make them seem sympathetic. 

But not only that, the feminism felt incredibly shallow and performative.

For example, one of the famous “feminist” lines of the show was “I know my worth. Anyone else’s opinion doesn’t really matter.” Peggy said this after Jack Thompson took all the credit for her work and effort in s1. I remember at the time people were livid because that was a terrible message to be sending women and girls. It’s okay if a man steals your work so long as you believe in yourself...? No. Hell no. That’s not how society progresses forward. Peggy should NOT have accepted that outcome and should have FOUGHT Jack to demand he give her her proper credit. But she didn’t. She rolled over and took it, and we as an audience were supposed to applaud her for it.

Another “feminist moment” is when Sousa catches Peggy helping Howard Stark and the SSR think that she’s a terrorist. So after they arrest her they all take turns interviewing her and she calls them out, saying: “I conducted my own investigation because no one listens to me. I got away with it because no one looks at me, because unless I have your reports, your coffee, or your lunch, I’m invisible.” Except this isn’t exactly true. She wasn’t invisible to Sousa and she didn’t get away with it because he literally caught her. Since episode one Sousa was investigating a strange blonde-haired woman with a scar on her right shoulder who he believed was helping Howard Stark. That woman was Peggy. And he actually figured that out in episode 1x05 and tried to arrest in her 1x06. Given that this is only an 8 episode season Sousa knew about Peggy for almost half the season, but was hunting her for technically the whole season. How is that you being invisible? How is that you getting away with it? How?? 

Peggy continues and says: “You think you know me, but I've never been more than what each of you has created. [At Dooley] To you, I'm the stray kitten, left on your doorstep to be protected. [At Jack] The secretary turned damsel in distress. [At Sousa] The girl on the pedestal, transformed into some daft whore." This statement was also weird as fuck to me because Sousa never thought she was a whore, never called her a whore, and never accused her of being a whore, etc. When the SSR found out Peggy was helping Howard Stark they were trying to figure out why she would do it. A working theory was she was in love with him (a fair theory given Howard’s a bit of a womanizer and actually has hit on Peggy in the past). So Sousa (along with literally everyone else interviewing her) accused her of having an affair with Howard. But somehow only Sousa received that scalding drag, when technically it was true of everyone. Also how was he viewing her on a pedestal when he called her out all the time (during their “quirky banter”) and once again, investigated her for terrorism. Some pedestal huh. (This quote actually bugs me a lot because some people to this day will reference it as a reason to hate Sousa - “He was obsessed with her and then when he thought she was with Howard he called her a whore!” That never happened, that’s Peggy’s false version of events. I have eyes and a working brain and I watched the season myself and it’s simply untrue.)

Peggy will just say stuff that sound Cool and Empowering but if you break it down and analyze it, make no sense and mean absolutely nothing. It’s just cringey.

And let’s not even get in to the ableist implications of Peggy fantasizing about Sousa suddenly having two legs and being able to walk perfectly. That was her romantic vision of him. A version that could not only walk, but dance. Who throws aside his cane like it was just an accessory. Okay.

I really did not like Agent Carter at all (problematic stuff aside the actual plot sucked) but I watched the whole thing because I was a fan of Peggy Carter and Jarvis and I really wanted to make it work. When it was cancelled I didn’t cry about it, I was actually relieved I wouldn’t have to watch a third season. That show was just such a cringey, embarrassing mess.

Sorry for the long rant about it. It’s been a long time since I talked about this show and it still bothers me to this day because people reflect on the show so fondly and are still making petitions to bring it back as if it’s wasn’t a heaping mess.

Thank God Sousa was saved from that show. lol

Disclaimer to anyone reading this: Me hating the Agenter Carter show is not me hating Peggy Carter. Obviously I love my mans Sousa, and I also love Jarvis and Angie. I loved a lot of the characters and my issues with the show has to do with the showrunners and the writing.

[littlemisssquiggles]

I'm worried about Volume 7 for RWBY. What if they pander to the Bumbleby fans again like they did in Volume 6? What if they make Blake a full-on lesbian and make her and Yang kiss in front of Sun? WHAT IF THEY MAKE EVERYONE IN THE SHOW LGBT!!!???? D:) I'm just a little worried that CRWBY is going to make the show more LGBT (Not that I hate LGBT even though I'm heterosexual, its just that there was too much in Volume 6.

Ooof! This is a pretty touch and go subject anon-chan. So I will do my best to remain as humble and respectable about it while still providing an honest opinion on the matter. Fair warning, it’s a rather long answer post:

I see what you’re basically saying anon. I’m also a straight person but  I am supportive of the LGBT community. Like anyone in today’s media, I’d like for my LGBT brethren to receive just as much good representation because why not? Why shouldn’t their stories and experiences be told too, y’know what I’m saying? Why shouldn’t they be able to look at a character on screen and see themselves in said character since they can relate to who they are as a person and what their experiences?

That’s how I look at it. But there is a fine line between what could be considered great representation and pandering. I’m a glutton for good storytelling and character writing so what I consider great representation is when you’re able to take a certain kind of character—any kind of character regardless of who they are— and just tell a good story with them. Something that makes me as the audience care about said character regardless even if I may not relate directly to them as a person or their experiences.

For example: I may not be LGBT but if you give me an LGBT character with a great story and terrific writing to back them up—one who is not just an LGBT character but a good character overall who is LGBT (believe it or not,there is a difference) then I can support said character. Not just because they are LGBT but because they are a good character. Just like in real life, there is more to an individual than just their sexuality or one characteristic about them. I get that a character’s orientation is a part of who they are but it’s not ALL that they are; y’know what I’m saying?

What I personally don’t like seeing is when showrunners make half-ass attempts at appealing to certain demographics by introducing characters who feel more like cardboard cut-outs or props placed on a string to dangle to said target audience as opposed to being actual characters who feel like real people with exceptionally-written stories that the audience can connect with.

Personally, I am tired of the whole schlock where showrunners introduce LGBT characters like it’s a last minute brain fart. It’s especially worse when they take characters who weren’t initially confirmed to be LGBT at the start of the series but suddenly make this a big reveal later in the series run. I’m not talking S2 but like in way later seasons; like near the very end when the series is about to wrap up. And I’m not even talking like it’s a thing where the character go on a journey of self-discovery where they are unsure of their orientation at first and the seasons are about building up to them coming out. I’m talking straight up saying “This character is LGBT now. That’s it. They just are. Nevermind that they weren’t that several seasons ago. They’re just that. The end.”

I’m looking straight at you Voltron: Legendary Defender and before you, Legend of Korra.  

Additionally, what sucks is that often times, if an LGBT character is introduced in a such a contrived way and you as an audience member complain about it due to how it was portrayed, you end up being labelled with some derogatory term that overlooks what you were trying to say. It’s like some folksactively believe that you should automatically support something just because it represents a minority group and you should be happy that this is what certain shows are doing to breech that.

For example: I, as an audience member, should automatically be supportive of an LGBT character and relationship within a show I like because it is LGBT. Nevermind if it’s good representation, I should just like it because it is this and if I don’t, I’m labelled as being homophobic. Nevermind that I have justifiable reasons for not supporting said character or pairing that have nothing to do with them being LGBT. I’m just automatically roped in with the people who are like this despite my views not highlighting any kind of animosity towards LGBT representation overall.

To tell me that I should automatically support all LGBT rep in RWBY because it is LGBT is like telling me that Emerald Sustrai should automatically be my all-time favourite character because she is a black female character in the show and I am a black female.

Don’t get me wrong. I like Emerald but she isn’t my favourite. Ya’ll know who my favourite is. I don’t need to repeat myself. But should I be considered a racist just because I say Emerald isn’t my favourite despite my reasons having little to do with the colour of her skin but rather how she is written in the series? No.

This is why I don’t like seeing examples where fans are labelled homophobic just because they don’t support Bumblebee or any other LGBT character or ship within RWBY.

Let’s use the favourite character example again. My favourite character in RWBY is Oscar Pine. Oscar isn’t the best developed character within the series but my interest in him stems from the tremendous potential he has to become one of the best written characters in RWBY given the calibre of characters and stories he draws inspiration from. That being said, I can understand why not many people like Oscar. As a matter of fact, my main frustration with Oscar as a fan of his is how he’s portrayed within the show and how his growth and development is often handled by the CRWBY Writers. I understand why it’d be difficult for others to get behind Oscar as a favourite character since the writing, more often than none, doesn’t support how good he could be. (We’ll see if V7 finally changes that).

The same thing can be said for the Bumblebee pair and why there are those folks who are unable to support it 100%. I’ll focus on the Bees as my primary LGBT rep example since they’re the pair you mainly brought up.

I’m aware that there are those special folks out there who harp on this pairing simply because it is LGBT. I know those fans exist and it’s a shame that that’s their feelings but, to each their own. However, as I must say with great emphasis—not everyone who dislikes or isn’t supportive of Bumblebee are homophobic.

I’ll use myself as an exemplar of this. I’m a BlackSun shipper who has zero issue with Bumblebee or the prospect of it becoming canon endgame. On the contrary,as of V6, I’ve wholeheartedly stopped caring about who the showrunners put to be Blake’s final love interest. After watching 6 seasons of the showrunners tease both BlackSun and Bumblebee, I’ve grown tired of this charade they’ve forced us fans to dance to. 

I don’t care who Blake ends up with. I just would very much like for the CRWBY Writers to make up their mind on who they wish to push to be with Blake and stick with said person.

One of the reasons I’ve heard folks say the Writers are pushing Bumblebee now is because Sun is out of the picture and in all honestly, I can see the truth in this. It does feel rather suspicious that the instant Sun is out of the story, it’s suddenly bee season. Say what you wish to say, BlackSun is a ship that has always been at the forefront since V1. 

By my observations, Bumblebee didn’t become as glaringly apparent as it is now until the end of V5 going into V6. 

The Beekeepers can debate as much as they’d like about ‘Bumblebee being planned from the beginning’ but this is simply not true. I rewatched all of RWBY with the recent two seasons still being very fresh in my mind. I recapped the series with an open-mind to see if all those hints that Beekeepers have preached about for years on end held up.

In V1, Blake and Yang were teammates slowly becoming friends similar to Weiss and Ruby and that was basically it. In V2, it was the same energy and I know they had their famous moment in ‘Burning the Candle’ that most Beekeepers like to use as leverage to imply that this was the starting line of Blake and Yang ‘falling in love’ but again, this was not the case. 

That moment could easily be argued as a mere meaningful scene between two very close friends. Blake and Yang weren’t lovers or even seen to be falling in love with each other in that scene. It was just one friend trying to help another during a dire time where she almost destroyed herself with her own obsession over Torchwick.

In V3, same thing—friends looking out for each other. You can basically say that the Beacon Trilogy did a great job of establishing the friendship between Blake and Yang. Particularly Yang’s loyalty to Blake as one of her closest friends.   

From V1, Yang was always seen as someone who had Blake’s back no matter what. No matter how many times Blake was called out for her actions, she had Yang’s support. It’s what made it so heart-breaking to watch in V3 when Yang needed that trust and support reciprocated by Blake during the moment where she was framed during the Vytal Festival or even after losing her arm.

Instead of being there for her, Blake either expressed doubt in Yang (due to her past with Adam) or straight up ran. As unfortunate as it is to say, Blake wasn’t as good of a friend to Yang as she was to her and this was good because it was a set up for her whole arc during the events of V4-V6.

Up until this point, everything regarding Blake and Yang’s relationship had been about their friendship. Friends who are there for each other. That’s the thing. I can make the argument that Bumblebee, as a couple, did not become a real focus until the end of V5. 

And from V6, that’s when the pandering started to slowly happen. This is why I never bought into Beekeepers celebrating the Bees being canon after V6. I didn’t see that and I still can’t understand how the Beekeepers can see Blake and Yang murdering Adam Taurus as a triumph for their relationship.

It is…sort of…but at the same time it isn’t. It’s morally stained. On one end, you have two friends who both suffered at the hands of this villain before working together to take him down but on the other hand, they killed him.

Now his blood is on their hands and what’s bothersome is that the series simply treats it like nothing. No emotional or psychological repercussions for either girl. Again we’ll see if V7 does anything with that, but nonetheless, I did not believe Bumblebee being canon after V6.

Bumblebee isn’t there yet for me. It has the potential to get there if that is what the showrunners wholeheartedly wished to do. I just wished they would take their time to continue to flesh out the Bumblebee dynamic before possibly bringing in romance if that’s in the cards for these two. And I certainly hope that they aren’t only pushing the Bees to score points with the Beekeepers, using their support to push the show.

I’m not saying all the Yang and Blake moments were blatant pandering; but I will admit there were one or two that were glaringly obvious.

Similar to you anon-chan, I didn’t particular enjoy the pandering to this ship last season either. I honestly felt that the showrunners were more focused on the pandering than actually continuing to develop Blake and Yang’s bond overall. 

This is especially sad because there was room for further growth as brought up in V5. However it feels like most of the former tension that was highlighted in V5 suddenly got dropped by the finale, which made me question why even bring it up in the first place, y’know what I mean?

My main justification for not lobbying behind this pair is because there hasn’t been much evidence within the show to really sell these two as lovers for me. And the pandering doesn’t help. I don’t like pandering.

Nothing wrong with tossing some delicious breadcrumbs for potential canon ships within a series. But what I tend to dislike is when showrunners only bait certain ships to score points with the audience members lobbying for this kind of pair when in actuality they have zero intentions of making said ship official. I’ve mostly seen this sort of thing done with LGBT ships in animated series and it gets annoying after some time.

Why string people along like that? If you are not serious about making certain relationships canon or developing them in a way that feels natural, realistic and relatable to a variety of audiences; not just the one it’s mainly targeted at, then…don’t do it at all. 

It’s like what J.K. Rowling has been doing with the recent queer baiting in the Fantastic Beasts series. Why claim that you have that rep within your franchise only to not do it when you had the chance to? So basically you were only doing it for the attention it brings in today’s modern media. Gotta score dem sweet woke points. 

That level of pandering is what I find obnoxious and in the case of RWBY, I wouldn’t like for that to be done for Bumblebee ship or any other LGBT character or ship to come out of the series moving forward.

But to be fair, in defence of the CRWBY, sometimes it’s not always them. In terms of LGBT rep, sometimes a show might not introduce two characters or their bond as being LGBT but some audience members, for whatever reason, end up interpreting it that way and that’s the appeal of it for them. Some might even end up advocating for the show to confirm said characters to be LGBT purely because that’s what they like to see regardless of whether it was the showrunner’s intention or not.

This is what I’m seeing currently within the FNDM where a lot of Bee-shippers are seeing the conclusion of V6 as being a sign that Bumblebee is officially canon when the reality is that that’s not the case. You can almost say that is an example of an instance when the show is pandering to a certain type of audience and that audience takes what’s given and runs far with it even though that’s not the confirmed case within the series itself.

Again, I don’t believe Bumblebee is canon. While I feel like that may be where the show wants to take them, they’re not there as yet. And until the show takes the proper time to develop this pairing in that supposed direction, I’m not going to fully buy into it. But this is only my view. I have no control over how another fan interprets something. I can only speak for myself.

What if they pander to the Bumbleby fans again like they did in Volume 6?

Honestly, I’ll say this again. If Blake and Yang being canonically revealed as LGBT is the CRWBY Writers’ vision for these characters, all I can hope for is that it’s handled well. 

Like I said. I have retired from caring about who Blake ends up with romantically. While I will always remain a BlackSun shipper at heart (since I love my Sunshine boi), Blake’s love life is no longer of interest to me moving forward. I don’t care who the CRWBY picks just as long as they make up their mind and stick with it.

I really hope that the CRWBY aren’t pushing the Bees now because of no Sun. I honestly hope that we don’t get plenty of Bees for the majority of the Atlas Arc only for them to introduce some boring unnecessary drama between them and Sun as soon as they head for Vacuo. Please no! 

Up until now I never got the impression within the actual show that there was ever a love triangle between Yang, Blake and Sun. That kind of stuff was mostly reserved for the toxic side of the FNDM with the ridiculous shipping wars between BlackSun and Bumblebee. I would honestly be mega pissed if the Sunnybees love triangle is made into an actual subplot for RWBY in a future season. HELL NO!

Even now I still believe Bumblebee to be one-sided. What made me get behind Bumblebee was mainly for what it would mean for Yang. Between the two girls, I felt the Bumblebee vibe strongest with Yang more than Blake since at the time back in V5, she was with Sun and her focus was on Adam. 

Because of this, I looked at the show using Bumblebee as a way of showing Yang coming to terms with her sexuality  through realizing what her feelings for Blake meant to her and I was down for that. Very rare do I see animated series touch on the topic of showing characters coming to terms with their sexual orientation and having that ‘coming out’ moment. I’ve mostly seen it done in live action TV shows but not so much in animation. 

After V3, I thought that was what Miles and Kerry were going to do with Yang. Did that happen? Not really. I’m not even sure what was done for V6. All I know is that as soon as Sun was taken out of the picture, the Bumblebee hints started dropping; sparingly but so hard that it’s almost in your face.

To be honest, I wasn’t expecting any Bumblebee hints like that. Since V5 introduced Yang still having tension with Blake over the end of V3, I was hoping that V6 would’ve shown these two sitting down, have a nice long talk and then slowly rebuilding that trust and good rapport that was originally there between them.

 Instead Yang just magically forgave Blake at the end of V5 and then they really never honestly spoke about what happened in V3 at all that season. Sure it had the talk during Brunswick Farm which was a good start; but it never really went anywhere substantive from there. At least not to me.

We got one moment of Yang and Blake discussing Adam in V6 C5 and then the next time that actually had relevance was in C10 after Adam suddenly shows up to mess with Blake. We are thrown headfirst into this grandiose confrontation that I honestly wish the Writers had spent a little bit more time building up to. I knew it was going to happen at some point. I just wish it didn’t happen so soon after Team RWBY just reunited at the end of V5.

We barely got a full season of the girls rekindling their team dynamic; particularly Yang and Blake. Yang and Blake barely had time to truly recover from their prior two seasons of ups and downs before being tossed into the literal lion’s den.

If the Writers end up pandering more to the Bees in V7, I think it should be expected at this point anon-chan. If they did so in V6, it’s going to obviously continue into the next season. I don’t expect it to stop any time soon. Not when they can milk it for what it’s worth. Personally I don’t mind if the Writers plan on providing more great heartfelt character building moments between Yang and Blake unless it leads into their relationship being properly developed. That’s all.

If pandering is part of that then…okay,I guess? I just hope it’s not ALL of it. If Bumblebee is endgame and the show is serious about that then they need to stop puppeteering it around to tease those hungry and rather impressionable Beekeepers and actually focus on ensuring that the relationship is a well-written one. Pandering is not exactly development.

Another thing is that the Beekeepers kind need to tone down on taking everything that happens between Yang and Blake are a sign that they are canon. The lengths at which some of them reach to prove that their ship is canon is…wow, what a reach. I get that you guys want this to happen but for Pete’s sake, practice some patience why don’t you. I get that some of ya’ll are really eager and very passionate about this ship but Jeez Louis on cheese, wait for a clear defining moment that cannot be argued, please.

Let your Writers do your ship justice if they’re serious about it. Let them build upon it. Reinforce it. You can’t really complain too much about a romantic relationship that’s been developed properly. If the Writers do that well for V7 and onward—not really confirming the Bees but taking the time to show their bond progressing from close friendship to love before adding romance into the mix.

If the ship is developed well, I can’t have much complaints. I’m no tsure about you anon-chan.

What if they make Blake a full-on lesbian and make her and Yang kiss in front of Sun?

Yang and Blake kissing in front of Sun…I honestly hope it doesn’t happen because it’d be such a tasteless move; even for the show. Beyond that, I honestly don’t see Sun having a problem with Blake and Yang being a couple. While he might be surprised by it at first, it’s been established in V6 that Sun is only out for Blake’s best interest and overall happiness.

Sun Wukong cares more about Blake Belladonna as a person. As he told Neptune, his reasons for following her to Menagerie wasn’t out of a desire to make her his girlfriend or that she’d fall in love with him for it. He did it because he cared about Blake and wanted to genuinely help her get over her problems with Adam and rekindle her friendship with her team. That’s what was more important.

If Blake and Yang became a couple and Yang is shown to be the person that makes Blake happy then I can only see Sun being earnestly supportive of that; believe it or not.

I’ve said it before and I will reaffirm this. I cannot picture an envious Sun Wukong jealous of Blake’s relationship with Yang. It’s so uncharacteristic of Sun that it sounds nonsensical to even entertain the very thought. 

As a Sun fan, I would actually be more pissed at the Writers making Sun angry over Blake and Yang’s relationship overall than the action itself. 

Sun has always been one of the most supportive friends to Blake so he’d be happy for her even if she’s happy being with someone else and not him.  If Yang is the one who makes Blake happy then that’s all Sun would need to hear. That’s how this squiggle meister sees it.  

WHAT IF THEY MAKE EVERYONE IN THE SHOW LGBT!!!????

Uhmm…I think you need to give the Writers a notch more credit than that anon-chan. 

Just because they’re introducing more LGBT characters; particularly in the main cast doesn’t necessarily mean they are going to alienate their straight audience members. I don’t see them making everyone LGBT. 

There are characters within the series who were already confirmed to be straight (like Ren and Nora, Jaune, Pyrhha, Ozma, Neo, Qrow, Tai Yang and the list goes on). I’m sorry.  I just don’t see this being possible. I can see them adding more LGBT characters to the cast, but not every character in the show. That’s ludicrous!

The reason why we have more LGBT characters is to push for more representation of everyone regardless of gender, sexual orientation, culture, etc. RWBY has always been kind to include a plethora of diverse characters for fans to relate to. That’s one of the things that makes it such a good show. Making EVERYONE one thing, even if its LGBT, contradicts that.

I don’t see this being possible because I’d like to believe the show will always have that nice blend of characters that can appeal to any and everyone.

 I’m just a little worried that CRWBY is going to make the show more LGBT (Not that I hate LGBT even though I’m heterosexual, its just that there was too much in Volume6.

Uhmmmm…..the thing is anon-chan, inclusion is important.

But I also get what you’re trying to say. You’re not against more LGBT rep, you’re just concerned with the pandering aspect of it, right? The kind where the showrunners only shoehorn in these types of characters to push a certain agenda, steering focus towards these characters who aren’t written to be properly fleshed out characters with good stories but rather tokens to meet a certain quota and score those sweet brownie points with the queer community while alienating or downright changing pre-established characters to fit this new mould? Is that what you mean?

I don’t mind more LGBT rep in RWBY. That’s perfectly fine. Speaking mostly for mysef here, I like my LGBT characters the same way I like my straight characters. Well-written and properly fleshed out with good relatable stories and relationships that can appeal to anyone.

I’m not too big on characters who were originally introduced one way and then seasons later, we get the sudden reveal drop that this character is LGBT. I saw this kind of pandering in Voltron when the character of Shiro went several seasons with his past and previous close relationships (outside of Keith) never being an integral part of his arc. 

It was more tailored at characters like Lance and Pidge who were heavily family driven from S1 (which made the Hunk family focus in S7 so odd to me since Lance was the second character to think about his family next to Pidge buuuuut…I digress).

But suddenly in S7, the showrunners revealed at SDCC that Shiro was gay. They announced it at a con before we got the full reveal in the season. His former fiancé was named Adam. A love interest that prior to that season was never mentioned, teased or remotely made into a recurring aspect of Shiro’s story.

Shiro being LGBT was treated more as a marketing ploy for the folks behind Voltron to sponge off with the massive appeal it received from the queer community. However this also ended up backfiring and blowing up in the series’face when that very season showcased Adam—who was only brought in during S7 being killed off in that very same season. The audience was outraged by this and there was massive backlash (which led to some odd choices in S8).

This brings to light my issue with the way in which LGBT representation is handled by certain showrunners,in animation. I don’t think any kind of representation in media is something that should be pandered to. If straight characters are given the respect of being written well with the audience being allowed to buy into their stories and bonds on-screen then why shouldn’t the same treatment be done for LGBT character. In my experience, particularly for RWBY, the way in which the LGBT characters are revealed in the series often feels…forced.

Take for example; the recent reveal of Scarlet David of Team SSSN and Coco Adel of Team CFVY being dropped as queer characters. For Scarlet, it was done in the RWBY Red Like Roses Anthology and for Coco, it was in After the Fall. While I understand that the argument could be made that we never got those reveals in the main series since the show never took the time to really delve into these characters, that still doesn’t make it look less fishy, at least from my perspective.

I dunno. Because of my experience with the Voltron fandom, I get rather suspicious when showrunners suddenly spring the idea that a character is LGBT on its fans years after the series had been long-running, y’know what I mean?

Overall, I just don’t like it when the promise of more rep is used as a ploy to score points with a certain demographic when the attempt winds up feeling hollow and half-assed. 

Not trying to imply that this will be the fate of the Bees and/or LGBT rep in RWBY. I’m just saying, as far as Bumblebee goes, it needs to be handled much better than what we’ve seen in recent seasons.

For now, only time will tell with what happens next. For what it worth. I hope it’s good. 

Sorry for the long talk anon-chan (or to anyone who reads this post). As always, I hope that my thoughts and view points on this particular subject didn’t end  offending anyone in any shape or form.  I’m mostly expressing my honest views on this topic at hand and disrespect is never a direct intention regardless of how blunt my words can become at times/

Overall that’s all I have to say. Hope this answers you anon-chan.

~LittleMissSquiggles (2019) 

[jonofdany-moved]

Listen, I’m all for m/f friendships on media and all that jazz. But the reason we are lacking of those is because most times, especially in sitcoms, romances between dudes and gals are done in a heartbeat. In the same breathe they are meeting, they are already eyefucking and thinking of marriage. Which fucking sucks.

Good relationships, more often than not, are build on friendships and time spend together before romantic feelings can flourish. This is why I got an interest in alvareider since episode one. 

That’s right, my friends, I’ve been on board since my first watch.

With all due respect to the writers and showrunners, if they have always wanted for them to stay platonic, there’s A LOT that should had not been included in the show since the beginning, doesn’t matter how funny so and so was at the moment, doesn’t matter it gave a good plot to treat a new theme and problem in the show.

There are always other ways, and doing this after a season that made more people like the idea of a future relationship between two of your not related characters and in which youuuuu, the writer and showrunner, approved of tropes that have been done for years for romantic relationships, making your show seem to be even smarter than your viewers already knew... well, it kinda smells bad.

Regardless of how disappointing this kinda is, because for a few days we had hope and now it’s been crushed for many people, I want to say that I love this show with all my heart and I want it to continue developping these characters and relationships I adore, but then if we are not getting this plot that seemed kinda well planned, they better fucking start thinking how are they gonna makes us care for characters that only appear a couple of times and are instant lovers.

I love this show because it ain’t cliché. I really hope that cliché of the instant lover ends if we are not getting this long-term-plan-in-development so many of us thought was happening.

[coffeerebagels]

Tbh I'm legit disappointed Klance isn't canon

After reading the tittle many people will come to me complaining and shouting "VOLTRON ISN'T ABOUT SHIPS, GO DIE", I guess. But you know what? I have the fucking right to be disappointed by something and express my opinion, so if you don't like it, scroll away.

LONG POST WARNING!

Now onto the post. I'm really sad Klance isn't canon guys, and I mean, really disappointed.

When I was watching S7, I stopped right after the scene Allura blushes to Lance and I couldn't finish the season. I still haven't finished and probably never will. That scene just made me so sick, I couldn't understand why at that moment but now I see it.

It's because, it's such a harmful trope. Allura is liking Lance just because he was nice to her, not because they share interests or characteristics, neither because they make a great team. It's only due to Lance being a nice guy to her, and that's it. And, even if Allurance was executed better, I still wouldn't like it and you guys know why?

Because they're nothing alike each other. They're not compatible, these two are so different in terms of goals, ways of thinking and even what they enjoy doing that, seeing these two get together felt so wrong to me, and I felt so sick. I still feel sick about it. I think it's mainly because A//urance reminded me a lot of my first relationship and, as someone who dated a guy just because he was my friend and was nice to me, I can assure you guys these kind of relationships don't work. There's just so much more about romance, and constructing romantic subplots in stories, that building only a good friendship just isn't enough. So, I can only imagine Lance and Allura's relationship falling apart.

But I guess they won't do that, right? They'll still make this unrealistic couple happily ever after. Such a weird move for a show that claims to be realistic and dark and, how do they say, "about war" or stuff.

Now, moving on and onto the real discussion, Klance. Klance was my first LGBT ship, and I can say it changed my entire view about LGBT in general. I simply started liking them without knowing how to stop XD I guess many Klance shippers feel the same. But, it was mainly because they worked so well together. I saw those fanarts and those metas and those theories, and Keith and Lance as a romantic couple grew so naturally on me. I could see their potential and how each other could benefit from a romance, disregarding gender. But why I liked them so much in detriment of other canon couples you guys ask?

The answer is simple, they build one of the most compatible relationships of the entire show. Both share similar interests (becoming pilots), both are right hand mans, revealing their common characteristics (besides them constantly mirroring each other, showing their similarity), and their opposite differences complement each other, specially in team work, as this is shown by the show itself, and even with a clear statement by loverboy Lance himself, "we are a good team"

To make a good romantic relationship is to go beyond making a good friendship. Friendships don't exaclty mean relationships. Both Allura and Lance and Keith and Lance had great friendships, but the aspects I mentioned above are what make a friendship go beyond that into building a romantic chemistry. And Allura and Lance simply don't have that. They don't complement each other.

But I guess boy and girl friendships automatically means love... *sigh* And the showrunners made that very clear by developing Allura and Lance's friendship exactly the same way Keith and Lance's friendship was developed, but for some reason the first one is considered romantic progress... *shrugs*

So, I legit thought Klance would be canon. I legit thought they would be a surprise.

Because, aside from them making the most sense out in the show, the producers and voice actors kept teasing about it. Remember the drawing from LM, where they made Lance holds the LGBT sign with a nervous expression alongside Shiro? (Now that we know he's straight it feels so wrong...) Remember that interview where she straight up recongnises how compatible Keith and Lance are? (Meaning they saw the potential, but decided to go towards A//urance regardless) And how about that recent interview entirely about Klance where JDS said they are a natural progression? And right after that, telling about a similar dinamic in another series where the characters that parallel Klance eventually get together? And let's not talk about the fanarts they liked.

To sum it up, I legit thought they were teasing Klance like it would really be canon. And fans can't be blamed for it. The producers never acknowledged it, sure, but AL wasn't acknowledged but them either. It's funny cause, I trusted the EPs so much and A//urance seemed so out of the blue to me that I completely disregarded the possibility of them being canon. And to top it all they made all that teasing I mentioned above, allowing a second interpretation that KL would really be the path.

*sigh* I'm very disappointed. Not only did they fuck up with the romance subplots (with the exception of Hunay, but it was barely touched upon until S7) and LGBT rep, but only now I noticed how flawed and shallow was their story and how much character potential we lost. So I'm legitimately upset. They could've handled the whole shipping thing so much better. They could have at least clarified it wasn't going to be canon, but nope, they teased it instead.

But guys, these people are smart. Or do you think they wanted to lose over half their fanbase and popularity? They knew Klance was very very very popular.

So they used us as bait for their show instead.

So yeah, that's it. I'm just really disappointed by the show. I've become such a fan of it because of its characters, and Klance changed my view of things so much, but guess what? The characters weren't properly explored and developed, this including the relationships between them, and Keith and Lance's friendship wasn't fleshed out the way I personally thought it should have been. They composed one of the best team dinamics within the show, so even if they haven't made then love each other, I at least expected a proper development of their friendship.

That is all. I just wanted to vent my entire view about Voltron's romance subplots. In general, I think they suck. And the overall plot doesn't make it better either, since now it's mostly composed of emotionless fights, lack of character interaction, and use of flat drama for shock value.

And yes, I really think Klance had the potential to be one of the most amazing romances in cartoons, regardless of being gay or not.

Thanks for coming to my TedTalk.

[elizas-writing]

Thirteen Reasons Why is Torture Porn; Using Graphic Violence to Make a Point

CW/TW: Mentions of suicide, rape/sexual violence, physical assault, and everything the Thirteen Reasons Why crew were told NOT to do by mental health experts

If you are in a crisis, don’t let a poorly written TV show tell you what to do; call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK (8255) or the Suicide Crisis Line at 1-800-784-2433. Surround yourself with people who will support you without judgement and are willing to take the extra step to understand. If you’re struggling to find regular mental health resources, check out here for more options. You still have a life ahead even if it takes some trial and error to figure out what the hell to do.

So Netflix released the second season of Thirteen Reasons Why, and, what a shock, people hate it for upping the graphic violence and rape. I have no plans to watch it myself after reading through all the triggers, but suffice it to say that so little was learned from the first season. Plus, I’d rather not subject myself to that much distress for a TV show I knew there was no point in continuing after the first season. Everyone’s accounts across Twitter and Tumblr of the new season seem to match up, so I’m going off of that for this piece.

If you haven’t seen my review of the first season (with and without spoilers), I found that it definitely went too far to make a point and had really confusing characterizations, but there were select scenes, when they were done right, were kinda worth the wait-- keyword being “kinda.” There was a germ of an idea begging for good writing, but got sucked into shock value for the sake of shock value. And the second season offers no promises to improve.

Of the multiple graphic scenes of this season, the one which sparked the most outrage was the final episode “Bye” as Tyler (a serial stalker) is brutalized and raped by his male classmates. As a result of being pushed too far, he brings practically a whole arsenal of guns to shoot up the school during a dance, but Clay peacefully disarms him before he can go through with it.

So apparently the creators saw the criticism of season one and thought, “So, you want to see more graphic violence, rape, and terribly confusing characterization?”

In an interview with The Hollywood Reporter, creator and showrunner, Brian Yorkey, wanted to explore more of Tyler’s psyche and “how a troubled man might be driven to consider this very difficult choice” after the bullying and ostracization he experienced in the first season. While I’d never wish rape on anyone, even fictional people--and a bunch of characters who mistreated him are total hypocrites--, Tyler is still beyond redemption for never understanding how his behavior destroyed Hannah’s sense of safety. The show puts him through that much brutalization to force audiences to feel sympathetic towards him while never critically analyzing why his stalking and coping mechanisms were wrong and unhealthy, regardless of what else was going on in his life.

It also promotes the dangerous idea that social outcasts and/or victims of bullying are likely to eventually become school shooters, which completely ignores factors like toxic masculinity or racist associations-- as was the case for shootings like Parkland and Santa Fe from this year-- which contribute to a white male sense of entitlement. Even though the lapses in logic are all over the place in the show-- particularly Clay having an emotional breakdown with Tyler, even though he made things worse in the first place by sharing revenge porn--, people had every right to distance themselves from Tyler as much as possible.

He’s a creep in how he objectifies his female classmates, constantly collects sensitive photos for blackmail, and his main outlet for anger becomes shooting guns at bottles and live animals, because society as a whole tends to only show men how to be emotional through anger and nothing else. This doesn’t help that when he testified, he apparently wanted to befriend Hannah to take photos of her to which she rejected (rightfully so) and thus his stalking began. It’s already so back-and-forth among viewers if Hannah committed suicide out of revenge or actual mental health deterioration, and subtly putting blame on her for rejecting Tyler is up there as one of the worst things they did to her. Not to mention throughout the second season, Tyler is anonymously putting up polaroids around the school of incriminating evidence in the case, particularly with Jessica, who is already stressed as is coming to terms that she was raped by Bryce.

It’s upon these scenes that I realized Netflix’s Thirteen Reasons Why can’t decide who it’s supposed to be for. It’s not for teenagers with how unrealistic and unidentifiable the characters are, especially coming from an adaptation of an 11-year-old book with an outdated understanding of teen mental health, bullying and suicide. It’s most definitely not for mentally ill folks with a history of suicidal thoughts because it’s so graphic, violent, and triggering, and on top of which, is grossly inaccurate on how depression works. Are they making it for the same people who can stomach Game of Thrones easily?

Above all else, does graphic violence have any point in film or television?

As mentioned in their first Beyond the Reasons special, the writers argued about needing that authenticity for Hannah’s rape and suicide scenes “to be painful to watch,” but it’s really not worth it if it has nothing else to say besides “look at this excess violence; you need to feel bad.” If you need to spoon feed your audience an explicit rape or suicide scene to emphasize how horrible those things are, it’s bad writing. They made the same mistakes with Tyler’s brutalization, which like I said, only exists to make you feel sorry for him and almost forget he’s an irredeemable character.

Film and television are super creative visual mediums; there are ways to convey an emotion or theme without triggering content or alienating your supposed intended audience.

I mentioned this before in my first review, but Perks of Being a Wallflower did incredibly well in portraying child molestation and an attempted suicide without going too far. The scenes of the molestation are cleverly cut and mostly in shadow where all you can see is Charlie’s aunt rubbing his leg and hear her whispering “Don’t wake your sister.” And when he’s mentally breaking down and suicidal, the camera just pans to the knife slowly before immediately cutting to the police breaking in, and then Charlie wakes up in the psychiatric ward. It’s a gut-wrenching scene every time, but it’s also smart in remembering the intended audience and walking that line before it becomes too much. It’s a great depiction of an anxiety attack where everything overwhelms you at once, and sometimes there’s gaps in your memory in what happened while in that state of panic. It’s never addressed what happened between the police arriving and Charlie waking up in the psychiatric ward. But it doesn’t need to give those answers; what matters most is that Charlie is safe and finally going to get the help he needs.

A scene can be way more powerful in what it omits rather than what it explicitly shows. What you imagine might happen can be more exciting and/or terrifying than what any director could have put on the screen themselves.

Early horror and thriller films are among the most successful of this, especially if they’re directed by Alfred Hitchcock, the Master of Suspense. Sure, these films seem pretty cheesy when we in the 21st century are used to seeing much more violence and body horror, but they have their mark on cinematic history for a reason, and for an audience in the 1960s, this was horrifying. Take the famous shower scene from Psycho.

Instead of showing the knife penetrating flesh, it’s all edited in near-rapid cuts of “Mother” missing, Marion screaming and trying to defend herself, and shots of her feet with blood dripping into the water. It focuses more on the vulnerability of the situation, when there’s no chance for escape as you’re cornered against the wall and how quickly it all happens before you can react, complete with fast-paced editing and those high pitched violins. That kind of defenselessness freaked out actress Janet Leigh so much that she couldn’t take showers again without locking the doors and windows and leaving the shower door open. Hell, that still tends to be a common reaction for a lot of people who see this movie, and all without needing to show actual stab wounds.

And this trick in omitting some elements and highlighting others works well across genres for any scene motivated by any strong emotion. There’s probably about 50 different Disney films I can cite that do this well, but the one that sticks out the most is Tarzan.

Aside from Phil Collins singing, some animal noises, and a baby cooing, there is no spoken dialogue for the first 7 minutes, which is a really long time for an animated family film. Yeah, the song kinda hamfists in the themes of family and love from the get-go, but it’s otherwise a great introduction. You see these two families just starting out before they’re cut short by tragedy; one with the death of a baby gorilla and the other with the death of Tarzan’s parents, both at the jaws of Sabor. The former is only indicated by the sounds of the baby gorilla’s screams echoing in the jungle while we only see the aftermath of the latter through Kala’s perspective when she finds Tarzan.

Obviously with it being a Disney family film, they’re not going to actually show Sabor tearing up a baby gorilla or the human parents. As such, they have to rely on context clues for the audience to pick up and piece together everything else with their imaginations. When you think about it long enough, it’s a really dark beginning on how quickly unexpected tragedy can destroy everything you hold dear. And it’s all accomplished without going too far.

Does this mean we need to omit graphic violence entirely for a film? Not necessarily as it very much depends on what the film is and your target audience. But omission is a great practice in a story to explore what else you have to say besides “Look at this traumatizing shit. You should feel bad.” Of course, we’ll always have mindless films which just exist to be violent, and historical narratives and/or social commentaries in some cases need violence to portray the reality of a situation. But when you’re making something about mental illness with intent to help those like your characters, it helps to listen to what your audience and mental health experts actually want to see in such a narrative. And like I said before, the Thirteen Reasons Why creators completely ignored criticisms of season one and continued making the same mistakes just to milk their product beyond the source material. It has nothing else to say or do besides being needlessly gritty as opposed to creating likable characters or understandable motivations.

The only exception to this rule I can even think of is Deadpool 2.

I know it seems counter-intuitive to compare Deadpool 2 and Thirteen Reasons Why given the former’s more excessive violence, but bare with me here. I stand by that Deadpool 2 is way better at handling themes of suicide and violence in two hours than Thirteen Reasons Why ever did in 26 episodes.

The major differences? The intended audience’s expectations and well-written characterization.

Most everyone going in already knows what Wade Wilson is like. And this is definitely not the first time he attempted suicide in such grandiose and gratuitous fashion. The first film established itself as a wildly violent parody of superhero films, and the sequel continues that by poking fun at recent trends of these films going darker and grittier. In any other film, this would cross the line, but because it’s Deadpool, the excessively grotesque violence is to be expected. It succeeds in capturing the shock and dark humor (i.e Wade blowing himself up with his apartment, knowing fully well he can’t die) while still maintaining the weight of his emotional turmoil.

We actually get to know who Wade is and why he acts the way he does. There’s no drawn out mystery or fact-checking other sources or confronting side characters we don’t care about. We get his perspective alone, and that’s all we need to see his grief over Vanessa escalating to self-destructive behaviors and how he tries to find some family and meaning in life without her, even though her death is retconned in the end anyway. It’s all played for laughs, but you can’t help but feel sorry for Wade because he loved Vanessa so much, and they were a wonderfully sweet couple.

Another thing Deadpool 2 does significantly better than Thirteen Reasons Why is not forcing gray morality where it doesn’t belong, particularly when Wade tries to save Russell. It doesn’t matter if his actions lead to a horrible future; he’s just a traumatized kid who needs a proper family who will guide him. A lot of X-Men films try to play the heroes as the bigger people who are above murder and revenge. Yet Deadpool 2 doesn’t punish those like Russell with understandable hatred and motivations. It is very upfront that if you harm children, you deserve whatever hell comes your way-- which really hits home as Russell was put through metaphorical gay conversion therapy.

Meanwhile, I can’t even be bothered to care about anyone in Thirteen Reasons Why. The second season out of nowhere piles on excuse after excuse to justify the characters’ actions without them ever facing guilt or consequences. Anyone else with a remote chance at sympathy is just put through more emotional torture without rhyme or reason. I don’t care who has a drug problem, who’s gay, who dated who, the he-said-she-said, etc etc. If you’re trying to preach the ever-tired “it gets better” bullshit, when does it actually start to get better?

Sadly, Thirteen Reasons Why can’t find that point, and I don’t trust it will given how little the creators learned from the first season’s criticisms. They don’t care about creating a narrative to help mentally ill teens. They have nothing else to say or do than to make money and shoe-horned in so much graphic violence under the guise of being “authentic” to compensate for a tired Degrassi knockoff which would’ve disappeared if it wasn’t based on a well-known YA novel. Graphic violence in media is a tool to be used carefully, and of course it will vary project to project. But if it just exists to pad your “deep, meaningful” story instead of developing characters, motivations and relationships, then it’s cheap, lazy torture porn, and it’s bad writing.

If you enjoyed this analysis and what I do here, consider buying me a ko-fi to show your support!

[tjmystic]

Do you ship Destiel?

*sighs*

I should have known I’d be getting this question sooner or later. 

The funny thing is, if this was any other ship, any other fandom, any other show, I could give a definitive “yes” or “no” and be merrily on my way.  But noooo, this ship has to be the most political nonsense I’ve ever seen.  Who wants politics in shipping???

You know, sometimes I miss being on the sidelines.  I think about what it was like just a month ago (literally just a month ago, wow), when all I knew about Supernatural was that it owned all of the memes on tumblr and everybody kept dying and coming back.  That is an amusing amount of knowledge, looking back.

(Yes, I’m stalling.)

*more sighs*

Alright, if you really want me to answer this, fine.  But under the link, cause this is gonna be an essay.

So, before we get into this, why am I so reluctant to answer this question?  Well, the first reason is that the politics don’t just come from the fans, they come from the cast.  Jensen Ackles, from what I can tell, is adamantly against the ship.  Jared and Misha and much of the rest of the cast, either seriously or just to mess with Jesnen, are adamantly in favor.  I sincerely doubt that this is because Jensen is homophobic (and, if it does, I’d rather live in my pretend bubble where it doesn’t, because I’ve been disappointed this year by a lot of actors whom I used to love.)  I think it’s more likely that he’s worried about having to act like an onscreen couple with one of his best friends.  I get that, because I used to absolutely hate it when people accused me and my best friend of being gay.  It had nothing to do with homophobia on my part, I just felt like I was being fetishized and, even worse, our friendship was being underestimated.  It really sucks, regardless of your sexual orientation, when you’re constantly accused of being in a romantic relationship with someone just because you’re spiritually intimate.  So, there’s that - I don’t want to make any of the actors feel uncomfortable.

The second reason I’m so reluctant is because of the accusations of queer-baiting.  Do I think that Supernatural is queer-baiting?  Honestly... I don’t know.  Much as I love this show, I’ve noticed a distinct lack of women and a distinct lack of characterization in the few that make it to the screen.  I’ve noticed that Dean (or, at least, early Dean - I’m only midway through season 6 right now) comes across as pretty homophobic.  Those two things in mind, it wouldn’t surprise me if the showrunners, who are obviously aware of the popularity of this ship (so popular, in fact, that it was one of the only things I knew about the show before I started watching), leeched this ship’s popularity for all it was worth without providing payoff.  Does that mean it’s queer-baiting, though?  Not necessarily.  Most shows leech the idea of romantic relationships for as long as they can in order to get more ratings.  I can’t think of a single mainstream show that didn’t rely on the “will-they, won’t-they” trope for popularity.  That said, while I’m somewhere on the asexual spectrum, I’m not an obvious member of the LGBT community, so I have no right to speak for them.  If they collectively see this as queer-baiting, I don’t really have a right to disagree.  

BUT (and there is a huge “but” here), I will readily admit that this relationship would be handled waaaay differently if either Castiel or Dean was female.  For one, they would probably be permanently dead.  For another, if they did manage to survive past a few seasons, there would have at least been a kiss scene by now.  Whether you ship it or not (and I’ll go ahead and answer the question that I’ve been avoiding for 5 paragraphs now by saying that I’m on the fence), you have to admit that the nature of their relationship is... well, it’s probably one of the most romantic stories I’ve ever heard.  Get rid of the context and think about what we’ve got here.  Partner A was saved from literal Hell by Partner B, who is an actual angel.  The first words Partner B ever said to Partner A were, “I’m the one who gripped you tight and raised you from perdition.”  Before this moment, Partner A was a dutiful but faithless hunter who believed in nothing greater.  Before this moment, Partner B was a dutiful and obedient soldier in God’s army.  Just because they met, though, just because of their interaction in each other’s lives, Partner A begins to let others in, begins praying to a God he didn’t even believe in.  And Partner B forsakes everything he knows - his Father, his brothers, his immortality, his purpose - for the sole purpose of saving Partner A and his brother.  You do not get more romantic than this.  This is the stuff that soulmate fanfics are made of.  

So yes, if not for the politics, I would probably be all over this ship like white on rice.  And it doesn’t hurt that both Jensen and Misha are utterly gorgeous men, and watching them together in any sense is an overload to my poor heart (and other things).  Do I want them together on the show, though?  Honestly, I wouldn’t care either way as long as it was well-written.  I’m not sure I’d want to see them have too much of a physical relationship, though.  For one, like I said, my poor heart probably couldn’t take it.  For another, I feel like their relationship, whatever it is, is soooooo much more than physical.  I feel like the way that they look at each other, whether those stares are meant to convey brotherhood, friendship, or attraction, sums up their relationship more than even a kiss ever could.  

[amandaj718]

State of the Robron Fandom (As I See It)

I was raised on the American soap opera. Mostly CBS soap operas. That means I grew up watching The Young and the Restless, As the World Turns, Guiding Light and The Bold and the Beautiful. I had a slight flirtation of General Hospital in college, watching for three years before taking a break never to return but I keep up. I loved and hated all the characters that ran through the television screen and into my life.  I enjoyed reading the soap magazines to hear what others were thinking about my favorite and hated storylines.  

As I grew up, those magazines remained (most of the soaps did not) but added to that was social media.  It started out on message boards, moved to fanfiction.net, then LiveJournal then Twitter, Tumblr, and Achieve of Ours.  Since then soaps have changed, well the American ones at least. The ratings fell, and so did its existence.  

Since then, I have moved on.  British soap operas are catching my eye. Emmerdale, in particular.  Well, Robert and Aaron are what caught my eye.  The rest of my love for the show came with time. Anyway, with that came a new fandom. An intense fandom is full of different personalities and opinions.  Full of talented and smart people A fandom that is loud and very proud of those different views and talents.  Which is great. When things are going well.  This is what I’ve seen in the Robron fandom and where I stand on it.

Echo Chamber of the Freak Out

Ah. Social media is great to meet likeminded people. Get those opinions out, so it does not sit there in your brain taking away space you need (I know that is not how the mind works, it just feels that way sometimes).  It can be a lot of fun to be part of a television fandom.  Getting other viewpoints on a scene or character.  What is even more fun? Talking speculation and spoilers….until it is not.

Social media has a tendency to make one person’s worry or anger echo.  All it takes is one popular account to get upset or overexcited, and the effect is heard from Twitter to the most primitive of message boards. The echo chamber is quite strong in the Robron fandom.  This is not a new phenomenon but can be trying when people get upset about every little thing every day.

Stop the Hate

With the echo chamber comes the echoed opinions.  Different opinions are needed.  That is what makes a fandom interesting.  However, fandom is not fun when people are attacking each other or attacking the actors or workers on a show. Why am I beating around the bush here? I have seen it more and more with Emmerdale lately.  Not on Tumblr, this is showing up on Twitter.  That echo chamber causes people to lash out more because they feel they have some backing if someone challenges them.  I have fallen into that trap before. It is not pretty especially when you look back after the anger has passed.

Spoilers and You

Spoilers are a must in the soap world.  It keeps us aware of what is coming, what to get excited about and what to prepare for. Let’s just say that on spoiler days, things get crazy. People freak, get excited or go back to their fanfiction they were reading.  

Spoilers are not new. I remember waiting excitedly for my Soap Opera Digest to arrive so I could know if Michelle and Danny were getting back together that week! (Look it up, kids). It was fun to think about what would happen.  Now? It is like a battlefield. Spoilers come out from numerous sources trying to get our attention. So, they click bait, they scare, they embellish, and that gets everyone upset. It becomes less of a report of what is to come and more of a death march to freak out land.

Where I Stand

I feel like the fandom is feeling torn.  Some are offended by the current storyline. Offended enough to stop watching. Some are offended over how it got started. The fact the show will not cover consent, how quickly we went from a big high to a major low and the abuse Robert and Aaron have gone through.  People are getting letters from Leon the intern, people are arguing with each other over tiny differences of opinion and people are threatening the official social media account.

Here is where I stand. This story sucks. It does. It feels like we are in the pit after being at the highest of highs. There are pacing, writing and general lack of communication problems.  However, things aren't that bad.  Seriously. Let me explain.

The framework of this story is classic soap.  What is interesting and changes the game are the players in the story.  Not only are they not following the standard script they are changing up the game.  Robert is growing. Not only did he have to get drunk, thought he was broken up with Aaron and have no contact with him for the cheating to happen, he immediately regretted it, told Chas and even told Aaron because he knew he should not because someone pressured him into it. Aaron still has to grow, but I see it coming with this individual story.  Rebecca…sigh...I am sorry to say was screwed over.  I cannot stand her. I do not like her. I do not have to like her. Not liking her does not make me anti-women. It does not make me a terrible person. She is a poorly written character. I can only judge her based on what we have seen from her not what we wish we seen from her as a character. That is where the fandom divides. I know what people wanted to see from her, but it's not there. Stop pretending it is. Take her at face value. That is what the writers do. They only take her at face value to push the Robert and Aaron story forward. That is where this classic soap story goes off course. Rebecca is not a factor. Robert will not magically fall for her because she is carrying his child. She is a mistake, and that mistake has consequences that are going to stick. Like we have been told by so many people in the past year, Robert always gets away unscathed. Now, he is has been struck.  He loves Aaron with all his heart, and that will not change anytime soon.  

Which brings me to the baby. The baby is not really a factor. Yes, Robert will step up and try. Why? He is not a monster. Of course, he would love his baby (until that DNA test is done we can always assume something is up) and want to take care of him or her.  Doesn’t make him love Aaron any less. There is a difference between loving a kid and loving your partner or spouse. The baby causes drama that the two of them must get through. They will falter and fall but ultimately find their way back and even stronger than ever, regardless if a child is there are not.  

This brings me to some fan issues.  Everyone has the right to be angry. Everyone has the right to hate what is happening.  To take it out on other fans though, I have a problem with that. I do not agree with a lot of opinions, but I do not question those opinions. I let people have them and move on with my life.  That includes some of the options on Iain MacLeod.  I personally don’t think he is bad at all. In fact, I am thankful he has shown up.  Why? He turned Robert into a well-rounded character. He let Robert make mistakes and grow from those mistakes. He let Robert start talking about his bisexuality.  He was allowed to be there for Aaron in a way that he was not during the Kate Oates era.  I think people forget that Kate had turned Robert into a one-dimensional villain that never intended for Aaron and Robert to become something bigger than an affair.  It might seem like Iain is putting Robert and Aaron through the ringer but without him, we would not even be here right now.  Both are fantastic storytellers, but Iain is the one to bring us the biggest events that made Robron what Robron is. I believe he loves them. I really do. As someone who has heard a ton of showrunners talks about couples, I have never heard the phrase “soulmates” come out of their mouths. Iain does care. People are allowed to disagree. I just think he is going through a rough patch right now.  They will right the ship soon. I believe all of these parallels and themes popping up in the show have a reason.  We will not get answers right away, but I think this will all come to a satisfying conclusion.

As for spoilers and freak outs. Its ok to be scared for what is coming. Morale is low right now, so every little thing creates drama.  Sometimes certain Twitter accounts love the attention, so they make spoilers seem bigger than they appear.  Sometimes spoilers look one way on the page and play out a different way on screen. Shall I bring up the spoiler that Aaron will ditch Robert to hang with Adam? PLEASE. Adam wanted to hang with Robert in the end. In fact, that part of the scene was great. Sometimes it is easier to read the spoilers, shrug and wait for everything to play out on screen. It is fun to speculate (I should know) but don’t take it so far that it ruins the enjoyment of the story or show.

The last point I want to cover.  The threatening of leaving the fandom.  If you are upset by the story or show just leave for a while. No one is stopping you.  When you are emotionally ready to come back, we will be here welcoming you with open arms.  You do not have to make others leave with you.  I know if I were so upset that I tell off a Twitter account run by people outside of the show every day, I would take a break.  For my own sanity. Doesn’t mean other people have the same problems or low tolerance level.  

I know it is hard and this storyline sucks, but I feel like everyone is jumping to conclusions way too easily these days. I feel like we need to let this play out. Let all the players they put on the storyboard play their parts.  It is a story. When you read a novel or watch a movie, do you get all the pieces or understand the plot right away? No. You must keep going and let the story play out. Same with Emmerdale and Robron.  Just need to keep a positive attitude, keep talking things out with fellow fans if you are frustrated and just let the story play out. Have faith. Things will get worse before it gets better but I see it getting better.

If it does not? We can all blame Intern Leon. (wink)

So, take this with a grain of salt.  I am just someone who grew up watching soaps and understand what is required of a soap to keep moving forward.  The plots do not always go to plan. Fans push back. However, sometimes fans get a surprise.  The only way we can know if this story will turn out a surprise is if we keep watching and supporting the show.  Social Media has made fan panic louder than ever, but we have each other to talk to now when things get bad. Let us use those conversations on social media to be a bit more positive and supportive and we will be ok.   

[sinditia]

Why I wish Castiel would just stay dead

It’s a Sunday night and I’m supposed to be working on a 3000-word essay but it’s Jib weekend, right after that bullshit finale and I can’t bloody well concentrate.  I said I was going to quit Supernatural if Cas doesn’t come back and I suppose I should correct that.  I meant I would keep watching Supernatural if Misha was still on board.  Jared just informed us that Misha will be back for that Scooby Doo episode (which, don’t even get me started) and many people, including me, are protecting their hearts by keeping in mind that that statement in no way guarantees that 1) Cas would be back (there can be and have been many iterations of that particular vessel that looks like Misha), or 2) Misha would be working on any more episodes other than that one Jared mentioned.  My loyalties are with Misha right now.  I couldn’t care less what Supernatural as a show does at this point.

I have to be perfectly honest, I DON’T want Castiel to be resurrected in any way.  And it’s not just because I yearn to be free of this hellhole.  I just don’t think it’s a good story.  I feel like death has to mean something.  Cas has died and been revived so many times on the show, we know that, the characters on the show knows that.  But I think there has to be a limit and I think this should be it.  The fact that death is not final to certain characters on the show sort of cheapens the value of their mortality.  It makes us  not care or worry.  They’ll be back, no big deal.  I want Castiel’s life to mean something.

Even before Jared announced Misha’s return, I strongly suspected that Cas’s death isn’t the end. It’s too dumb of a move, even for Supernatural.  I wrote this a few weeks ago and I feel it summarizes how I feel about the showrunner’s approach to Castiel: 

“I feel like the writers or the show-runners or whoever the hell is in charge of this whole mess, is on the fence when it comes to Castiel.  They don’t know what to do with him.  They’re reluctant to give him a more prominent role … But at the same time, they’re also reluctant to cut him off completely … So in the end, what we get is Castiel just hanging around, the character who appears in the most episodes after Sam and Dean, doing nothing important … Castiel has a very polarized reception in the fandom, fans either intensely love him or intensely hate him, hence his very unclear position in the show.  They want to keep him enough to keep the fans happy, but not so much as to turn off his haters.” [x]

I don’t like the way Cas was written for season 12, not because he made the wrong decisions and went behind the Winchesters’ back, but because it didn’t make sense for him to do those things and the writers weren’t clear about his motivations.  Cas did pretty much the same thing in season 6 but I understood his motivations back then (season 6 Cas is actually my favorite Cas because it showed how complex he was as a character).  Hell, we were even given a whole episode narrated by Cas himself explicitly explaining and showing why he did those things.  Sure we were given some pretty great (but very few) Cas-centred episodes in season 12, but they weren’t enough to clearly explain to us what was going on with Cas.  In the end, Cas was just this character who did dumb shit for no good reason in order for the plot line to move forward, and we’re just supposed to accept that.  Cas-haters gleefully point this out as reasons for why Cas sucks, and I gotta say, I’m inclined to agree.

I guess what I’m saying is, if you can’t write Cas well, then please just let him stay dead.  Let him rest in peace and I don’t have to see shitty writing butcher my favorite character.

I’ve been thinking a lot about this in the past few days, talked to some people, and I’ve thought about possible scenarios for season 13 in regards to Cas’s seemingly inevitable resurrection.  Regardless of how he comes back, I feel like the absolute worst thing that could happen is if his death is glossed over.  He comes back, but everyone just moves on like it never happened.  Cas continues to be stuck in that limbo of always being there but never there at the same time.  Nothing changes.  His death – and his life – meant nothing.  And fuck, I really really strongly suspect that this is what’s going to happen.

The other, somewhat selfish reason I don’t want Cas back is because I want Misha to be free of SPN.  I know I like to throw around phrases like Misha (and the other cast members, really) doesn’t “deserve” the disrespect and shitty writing and all that stuff.  But I do acknowledge that it’s not really my place to decide what’s good or not good for them.  I understand that Supernatural is the absolute hugest break for J2M, as well as the non-regular cast members, and there’s a certain loyalty that comes with that, so who am I to insist that any of them cut ties with the show and pursue other, better projects.  That’s why I said it’s somewhat selfish because I’m the one who really wants to see Misha do great things in philantrophy and politics, and for Jensen to spread his acting wings and explore characters other than Dean.  But I’m not going to pretend I know better than them on what’s good for them.

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that Misha would be equally if not more successful doing other projects. But if Misha himself is happy to continue working with Supernatural (shitty writing or not, acting as actual Castiel or any other iteration), then I’m happy to support him.  My loyalties are with him, and if he’s in it, I likely will continue watching Supernatural.