#toxic codependent sibling relationships are the best

[autisticshadowthehedgehog]

"Why Would You Bother With Me?" - An Analysis of Kitsunami, 09/07/2024

tw: major discussions of abuse, the cycle of abuse, re-traumatizing situations, toxic and abusive relationships (non-romantic)

so like when I first read this panel my reaction was just to joke with Cori that this is a "get out of my school" moment (iykyk) but I've been thinking about it a lot recently because I... couldn't remember any specific beef Kit had with Tails?

Last we saw of them interacting one-on-one, Tails was talking Kit down from fighting, and Kit's beef with the squad later was more with Sonic than him. Tails didn't take down Surge in #56 or even affect the fight in any way, and Sonic was the one who told Kit that Surge was dead beforehand. At least that I could remember, so I went back to those comics. Indeed, in #56 he shows no animosity towards Tails specifically, nor when he talks to Surge in #55.

Then I went back to #54.

See, he does seem to blame Sonic entirely for the Surge death fakeout, and he thinks that Sonic is literally trying to kill her when he walks in. But he does have one (1) reaction to Tails, right at the end of the interaction.

In the previous issue, after Sonic and Tails saved his life, Kit immediately switched on his subservient personality and was desperate for any kind of validation from the hedgehog. We only see it for a few panels before he is told about Surge and sinks into a depressive state, but it's made very obvious.

And when he leaves to help?

Kit's conditioning under Starline means that he is excessively codependent on Surge– and if Surge isn't around, on anyone who is nice to him. The hypnotic repetition shown to us was "You live to support Surge. You'll do anything for her." Kit's sole purpose in life is to be a Support party member.

Kit's conditioning was to be the new Tails.

Starline wanted Surge and Kit to replace Sonic and Tails– that much was obvious from the get-go. But what was also obvious was his fundamental misunderstanding of Sonic and Tails's dynamic and how that negatively impacts Surge and Kit's relationship.

Starline completely misses the strong sibling bond that Sonic and Tails have. To him, Tails is just there to support Sonic, to provide the brains and tech that Sonic lacks, and so Kit needs to be there to support Surge in the same way. He sees it only as a business partnership, and not a mutual relationship built on trust, love, and shared experiences. Starline only saw other people as tools, so obviously he projected that onto Surge and Kit, hoping that they would immediately take up the closeness that Sonic and Tails did because, well, they served the same purpose to each other, right?

Except Surge and Kit don't have that relationship. These two children were forced into the same proximity and made to work together. They're coworkers at best, being told to act like a family.

Obviously their dynamic is super toxic, with Surge clearly holding a lot of power over Kit, but it's also clear that this isn't because Surge wants to beat on the kid. She was made to be Sonic, and so she has his arrogance (and possibly Shadow's, considering IS1 showed his image when Starline was talking about stealing abilities), but, as Boom!Sonic says, "Without any of the awesomeness to back it up." Okay, wrong, she's plenty awesome, the correct phrase is "Without the experience" and, most importantly, "without the altruism that makes Sonic Sonic." Surge wasn't programmed to like the people she saves, because that would conflict with Starline's goal to take over the world. So she's only made to be competitive and to want to best Sonic, anyone inbetween them be damned. This clashes with Kit's programming to not only be liked, but to be liked by Surge. Surge was also programmed to believe fully in herself in order to enhance the arrogant trait, and Kit was made to give her the help that she doesn't want.

To Surge, Kit represents everything holding her back. And she's not built to view him as a person, because Starline doesn't view him or her as people. Obviously this doesn't absolve her of her treatment of him, and later issues showing her getting more and more aware as she becomes more social is definitely going to impact the way she views him– or, if it doesn't make her reconsider Kit's personhood, it'll serve to make her more antagonistic for the viewer.

But the point is, Sonic trusts Tails because he knows and respects him as a person. It isn't just because Tails can help him, but because he knows Tails will. Surge, at this point in the comic, not only doesn't view Kit as a friend, she doesn't even care what he thinks or feels.

And despite the brainwashing, I don't think Kit is oblivious to this. He knows how bad their situation is, but he is so conditioned to accept it that he can't escape it whatsoever. In both fights with Tails, Tails talks him down easily because Kit doesn't want to hurt anyone. Kit only reacts violently when Surge is brought up, because he's meant to do anything she wants.

Like he said to Belle, he was made for Surge. And what he says directly after– "Sonic can use me, too." Kit doesn't even view himself as a person, only a tool– that's how far Starline's brainwashing went. It's clearly even affecting Surge, who realized in the latest issue, #72, how fast she and Kit fell into their abusive patterns again once Clutch took over– they were conditioned to be tools. Clutch claimed to want to help them, but really he was just using them for his own ends, just like Starline. So they went back to the familiar.

And speaking of familiar– pain is familiar to Kit, specifically pain in service to others. In his breakdown in #50, he says that Starline made him happy he'd been hurt. And in Imposter Syndrome #3 and #4, we see that him and Surge hate Starline and want to usurp him... but also are still trapped in the patterns he implanted in them. Surge still wants to kill Sonic and outperform everyone else. Kit still can't do anything but what she wants, to the point he becomes near catatonic when he believes she's dead.

Another pattern Kit is still trapped in is the idea that he has to be okay with his own suffering.

The only sense of home or family Surge and Kit have is in each other, but they fundamentally can't work together, at least as they are currently. Kit is expected to take Surge's anger, and Surge isn't expected to treat him like his own person.

And this, I think, is Kit's problem with Tails.

He was made to be Tails, and he knows this, but he can never have what Tails has. He can never live up to Tails and do what Tails can do, despite that being his entire life's purpose.

He doesn't hate Tails because he was programmed to– as he says to Surge, he only wants to destroy Sonic because she wants to. When he first encounters Tails, he refers to him as his target- a simple, unemotional term. He doesn't have the deep ingrained hatred for him that Surge does for Sonic.

Instead, he hates Tails because of what he sees in him. He sees Sonic and Tails interact, he sees how much Sonic trusts and relies on Tails, and he sees how he also loves and respects him. He sees how Tails has his own motivations and opinions, and he's experienced Tails's genuine compassion that was in part fostered by the hedgehog that raised him. In turn, Tails is loyal to Sonic, but not because he has to be– because he, in turn, loves Sonic and wants to be with him.

Kit only wants to be with Surge because he was forced to. Starline wanted to use Surge and Kit to stop Sonic and Eggman's cycle, but he made a whole new one instead. Kit is trapped in a cycle of pain, knows he's trapped in it, and is helpless to escape it.

Tails isn't, and Kit sees that in Tails. Subconsciously, he sees Tails and only sees how he fails to live up to his life's mission, and how he'll never have what Tails has.

After all, why would anyone bother with him? They already have Tails.

Is he a target? I like it here now.

[samwinchesterism]

in re: “cas knows dean better than sam”

“cas sees dean as a whole person and sam just sees dean’s façade as his big brother slash parent” but like how and where. outside of your fanfiction. season and episode. scene and line. if it’s so obvious and apparent you should have at least 3-5 concrete examples right? “sam doesn’t know dean carried him out of the burning house” yeah but did cas? outside of a footnote in the angelic manila folder they gave him between seasons 3 and 4 so he could better manipulate him and sam into doing heaven’s bidding? like if you’re going to say “cas knows dean better than sam” than you need to show how cas succeeds where you perceive sam to be failing at the very least. but even your perceptions of how sam doesn’t measure up are so warped, blinkered, and moronic that it wouldn’t even be worth much if you could provide the textual evidence, but at least you’d have a semblance of a point. like say anything without going “as an eldest daughter…” “well my relationship with my sibling isn’t…” please say anything without fucking projecting your own self-pitying crybaby bullshit onto your little woobie dean and using the actual canon text of the show. I’m literally begging you.

like the thing of it all is and always has been that you’re so hell-bent on twisting the sam and dean relationship to fit into this narrow and almost entirely inaccurate mold which is the basis upon which you build the entire Destiel Mythos that you literally lose all sense of media literacy. you don’t even miss the forest for the trees, you miss the trees for like, the pretend invisible things you’re seeing in between the trees, the forest is a whole long way away from your current level of perception. because the Destiel Mythos is based entirely on the fact that dean is Not Seen and Not Appreciated and Not Loved and Cannot Be Himself until cas comes along, and that Family (read: sam) Is Only A Burden on Him That He Must Be Freed From In Order to Flourish, so you keep trying to warp the sam relationship into something that is only one dimension of it – and keep ignoring the ways in which dean is seen, loved and understood within it, because you need to keep lying to yourselves that there is a narrative need to emancipate dean from something that he has never wanted emancipation from because it is ultimately a net good for dean in the particular circumstances of their lives. it’s also profoundly unhealthy, codependent, evil and toxic etc. (a lot more dean’s fault than sam’s but I will nawt be getting into all that right now) but that doesn’t change the fact that sam and dean both know and understand and feel deeply that they are each other’s person – that they know the best and love the most in the world. but that – which IS true canon fact – is incompatible with the Destiel Mythos so it must be ignored and all good sense must be thrown out the window in order to do it.

anyway i digress there are two main categories of Bad Thinking that i will be addressing below

childhood/ “parent/child” / blah blah blah

every single thing people are saying in favour of the deeply stupid thesis in the title of this post is proof positive of the very silly form of ‘analysis’ I just described. a few things:

“wah sam didn’t know that dean carried him out of the burning house :( this means that dean withholds things from sam to protect him because he is a PARENT and sam can only know things about him in the context of him being a PARENT to him” – what the fuck are you on about genuinely. first of all reducing the sam/dean relationship exclusively to parent/child is in itself foolishness for so many reasons that I don’t have time for right now. but also, it’s clear that this is just something that happened when sam was a baby that just never came up. in the scene (1.09) where this is brought up, dean is mildly surprised that he or john never mentioned that detail and then states that sam knows the rest of the story (i.e. the actual traumatic stuff) just as well as dean does – which is true, demonstrably whenever they talk about it.

obviously there are some things that happened to dean in their childhood that sam doesn’t know about (or didn’t know about, until told in whatever episode they come up in). equally, there are things dean doesn’t know about sam’s childhood, e.g. the fact that he was so lonely he needed a zanna (11.08). or how dean didn’t remember that sam was friends with barry cook until he mentions it when they go back to their old school (4.13). or about the nature of sam’s relationship with amy pond (7.03). these don’t mean that ‘sam withheld these things to protect dean out of parental love’ lol, it’s just that there are details and events in each of their lives that the other happens to not have been told about.

similarly “sam didn’t even know dean wanted to be a firefighter L” girl did dean know sam wanted to be a lawyer? in 1.01 he’s pretty surprised that sam has a law school interview. the point here isn’t “neither sam nor dean know each other well,” these are minutiae that aren’t relevant to how well you know someone as a whole, and very poorly demonstrate the bad and inaccurate point that dean withholds things from sam the way a parent does a child (on a constant or regular basis). obviously the way they were raised, sam was deemed too young to know about certain things until he got older and dean had to keep that secret, but as shown in 3.08 flashbacks, most if not all of this is eventually revealed throughout their childhood when sam is still fairly young.

or possibly the dumbest one is that “wah sam doesn’t even know that dean reads books L” whenever that was he was also obviously joking because in more serious moments (e.g. 8.14) he admits that dean is smart/a better researcher than he is, literally remembers dean reading to him as a kid (8.21) so like. clam down  

one of the extra annoying variants of this type of ‘proof’ covers things that are very clearly novel pieces of information about dean that dean, sam, and the audience are learning about dean in real time. like if you’re actually watching the show to comprehend it as it was intended to be comprehended, instead of funnelling everything through the Destiel Machine until it’s unrecognizable slop that fits neatly into your pre-ordained molds that Make Destiel Necessary In the Narrative (when it actually isn’t, at all) it’s abundantly clear. the top two worst offenders:

“sam didn’t even know that dean is good with kids :( he doesn’t even realize that dean raised him :(” first of all you people need to understand that parentification does not literally create a parent-child dynamic between siblings but I digress – this doesn’t make any sense bro. in 1.03 dean admits he doesn’t know any kids as an adult. dean being good with his own kid brother when they were both kids is to any reasonable person not necessarily linked with him being good with other random kids when he’s an adult. in 1.03 it’s clear that dean himself is a bit surprised that he’s able to connect w/ lucas so well because he’s clearly not dealt with a lot of kids since sam grew up. the whole point of this is that dean, sam, and the audience are all sort of seeing a new side of dean. who again is just 26. after this very early episode, there’s no question from sam that dean is able to connect w kids. sam being a bit surprised by this also has absolutely zero connection with him not understanding or realizing that dean looked out for him when they were both kids – sam is standing there at 22 years of age talking about adult dean and children – of fucking course he doesn’t mean himself are you stupid.

from the very first season, sam is very clearly aware of everything dean ~did for him~ when they were kids, see e.g. 1.21: “Dean...ah...I wanna thank you. […] For everything. You've always had my back you know? Even when I couldn't count on anyone I could always count on you. And I don't know, I just wanted to let you know, just in case.”

and 1.06: DEAN: Well, I’m a freak, too. I’m right there with ya, all the way. (SAM laughs.) SAM: Yeah, I know you are.

and then possibly even more stupidly, the one where it’s like “wah sam doesn’t even know dean can cook :( he doesn’t even know that DEAN was the one making him food as a babe in arms :(” – when sam is surprised that dean made something fairly gourmet and from scratch literally the first time they have ever had a permanent living space with a functional kitchen. in this VERY scene (8.14), dean himself points out that they haven’t had a kitchen before and when sam remarks on the irregularity of him doing serious cooking, he says “I’m nesting”, clearly showing that this is a novel development because they now have a kitchen, and that it’s irregular relative to past behaviour – both of them acknowledge this. because real proper in-depth cooking and making box mac and cheese for sam until he was like 11 and old enough to be left alone are two different things, which sam understands because he’s smart, unlike whoever chooses to make this point. dean never showed significant signs of liking to cook before this, which is what the exchange is about, but he did have to prepare food for them both when sam was too young – of course sam knows he had to, there are childhood memories referred to (e.g. 14.11) where sam is mentioned to literally help dean do the cooking as kids lol (and yes, genius, sam says ‘I didn’t know you knew what a kitchen was’ or something to that effect, but if you think he’s being 100% literal there I have an oceanfront property in Kansas to sell you)

again, obviously there are pieces that sam doesn’t know about dean, e.g. when he’s talking about his response to mary dying in 1.03. but again, Sam is 22, dean is 26, the last time they were in regular contact was when sam was 18-20, these are things that happen when people grow up, they’re able to reflect and share on childhood experiences if they’re close with their siblings as adults. it’s clearly not something that 26 y/o dean wanted to hide from 22 y/o sam. yes sam didn’t know everything about how dean felt when they were young, but that’s equally true in the other direction, and it’s such an irrelevant point in this discussion when, crucially, sam does learn these things about dean mostly fairly early on in the series (i.e. when they’re really not that deep into adulthood yet). cas was also not magically blessed w/ knowledge about dean, he also had to learn whatever it is that he knows, but somehow sam has to know everything about dean from age 7 or it doesn’t count when it’s sam lol.

“sam doesn’t know the One True Dean / doesn’t see through his facades”

the next branch of defending this flawed thesis is invariably that sam has little idea of the fronts and facades that dean puts up and is content to just believe them, whereas cas digs deep and sees the One True Dean that stupid sam always misses. there is nothing in the text that demonstrates this is true. multiple times, we see sam being very knowing of the fact that dean puts up fronts and facades. sam is also knowledgeable of the way dean perceives himself, and – demonstrated in multiple episodes before such sam lines were very poorly recycled and regurgitated into cas’s dialogue in 15.18, but keep acting like that was the first time anyone ever showed that they knew the One True Dean.

Obviously there are times where sam teases dean when he’s being more touchy-feely than usual, but 9.99 times out of 10 (as a conservative estimate in case there's something i'm forgetting otherwise i would say every time) that’s very clearly coming from a place of knowing the real dean vs. the façade he puts up because that’s the whole joke. and it’s allowed to be a joke because they’re siblings and that’s what siblings do lol. esp since sam and dean have touchy feely moments at the end of like every episode.

examples of all of the above off the top of my head (there are more than these, but these are the ones I can think of):

2.02 (about John’s death)

Sam: “I mean this ‘strong silent’ thing of yours, it's crap. […] I'm over it. This isn't just anyone we're talking about, this is Dad. I know how you felt about the man.”

Dean: “You know what, back off, all right? Just because I'm not caring and sharing like you want me to.”

Sam: “No, no, no, that's not what this is about, Dean. I don't care how you deal with this. But you have to deal with it, man. Listen, I'm your brother, all right? I just want to make sure you're okay.”

2.03 (Sam to Dean, also about John’s death): “You know, you slap on this big fake smile but I can see right through it. Because I know how you feel, Dean. Dad's dead. And he left a hole, and it hurts so bad you can't take it, but you can't just fill up that hole with whoever you want to. It's an insult to his memory.”

Note that Dean essentially admits that Sam is right in these two instances in 2.04 bc I know yall have stupid shit to say about john too that has nothing to do with how anyone actually felt about him in canon

3.07 (about Dean’s demon deal – also proven true in later episodes)

SAM: Dude, drop the attitude, Dean. Quit turning everything into a punch line. And you know something else? Stop trying to act like you're not afraid.

DEAN: I'm not!

SAM: You're lying. And you may as well drop it 'cause I can see right through you.

DEAN: You got no idea what you're talking about.

SAM: Yeah, I do. You're scared, Dean. You're scared because your year is running out, and you're still going to Hell, and you're freaked.

DEAN: And how do you know that?

SAM: Because I know you! […] Yeah, I've been following you around my entire life! I mean, I've been looking up to you since I was four, Dean. Studying you, trying to be just like my big brother. So yeah, I know you. Better than anyone else in the entire world. And this is exactly how you act when you're terrified. And, I mean, I can't blame you. It's just […] I wish you would drop the show and be my brother again. 'Cause... (can't find words; tears in his eyes) just 'cause.

5.18 [Sam figures out what Dean is doing re: his plan to let Michael possess him, tracks him down, and eventually is the catalyst for Dean ‘making the right call’, which he predicts] – e.g.:

SAM: No, you won’t. When push shoves, you’ll make the right call

DEAN: You know, if tables were turned…I’d let you rot in here. Hell, I have let you rot in here.

SAM: Yeah, well…I guess I’m not that smart.

DEAN: I—I don’t get it. Sam, why are you doing this?

SAM: Because… you’re still my big brother.

8.14 (basically the o.g. version of whatever went on in 15.18 + sam intrinsically understanding the trials are a death wish for dean): “I'm closing the gates. It's a suicide mission for you. I want to slam hell shut, too, okay? But I want to survive it. I want to live, and so should you. You have friends up here, family. I mean, hell, you even got your own room now. You were right, okay? I see light at the end of this tunnel. And I'm sorry you don't – I am. But it's there. And if you come with me, I can take you to it. […] I AM smart, and so are you. You're not a grunt, Dean. You're a genius – when it comes to lore, to – you're the best damn hunter I have ever seen – better than me, better than dad. I believe in you, Dean. So, please – please believe in me, too.”

10.22 (understanding how much dean has ~done for him~)

SAM: I'm saving my brother.

CASTIEL: You told Dean—

SAM: —I know what I told Dean. Cas, look. I've been the one out there, messed up and scared. And alone. And Dean—

CASTIEL: He did whatever he could to save you.

SAM: Yes. I mean, it's become his thing. I owe him this. I owe him everything.

10.23 (basically the o.g. version of whatever went on in 15.18, x2 – from Sam to Dean): “You were also willing to summon death to make sure you could never do any more harm. You summoned me because you knew I would do anything to protect you. That's not evil, Dean. That's not an evil man. That is a good man crying to be heard, searching for... some other way. […] You will never, ever hear me say that you -- the real you -- is anything but good.”

11.13 (Sam understanding exactly how Dean feels about Amara being his ‘deepest desire’, and confirming that it doesn’t make him a bad person)

Dean: Why? Because if she is that means that I’m…

Sam: Means you’re what? Complicit? Weak? Evil?

Dean: For starters, yeah.

Sam: Dean. Do you honestly think you ever had a choice in the matter? She’s the sister of God, and for some reason she picked you and that sucks, but if you think I’m gonna blame you or judge you…I’m not.

Dean: You know that I want her ass dead.

Sam: Yes. Of course. And I know you’ve also probably beaten yourself up a hundred times over it, but where has that gotten us? (Long silence) Just how bad is it?

13.02 (Sam perfectly explaining Dean’s psyche to Jack)

JACK: Is that why Dean hates me?

SAM: Dean doesn’t hate you. It… Look, sometimes the wires in Dean’s head get crossed and—and he gets frustrated, and then he mixes frustration with anger, and—and fear.

JACK: Why would he be afraid?

SAM: Because Dean feels like it’s his job to protect everyone. And right now, we need to protect you. But we may also need to protect people from you.

14.03 [Sam assesses Dean’s psychological/emotional response to the Michael possession; end of episode, Dean confirms that Sam’s assessment was fully accurate]

14.10 [Sam is the only one able to snap Dean out of his weird Michael mind loop by using their code word]

14.11 [Sam figuring out that something is troubling Dean just based on the fact that Dean hugs him]

15.17 (self explanatory at this point)

DEAN: Chuck has to die. He has to! Otherwise he'll keep us tap dancing forever, and I can't live like that, man! I can't live like that! I won't!

SAM: I know you feel like that right now, okay. I know you do. But you gotta trust me. My entire life, you've protected me— from Dad, from Lucifer, from everything. I didn't always like it, you know, but... it's the one thing in the whole world that I could always count on. It's the only thing I've ever known that was true. So please... put the gun away. Just put it away, and we'll figure it out, Dean, we'll find another way, you and me. We always do.

like maybe there are some cas moments w dean along these lines too. i don't know, i don't remember what the guy says or does anymore it's been too many years and he is not memorable. but the point is where and in what capacity and based on what metric other than the amount of bad fanfic you've read does cas exceed sam in these respects.

so basically just. genuinely, what are you people literally ever talking about. go watch the show instead of saying stupid wrong stuff about sam on the hellsites all day. or watch another show (please for the love of god watch any other show this one is absolutely lost on you and it’s such a stupid one too i'm embarrassed for you)

[cheolsfae]

𓆦 Skz as your best friend

Requested: nope

Genre: fluff

Warning(s): none

Reblogs are appreciated

Bang Chan

The dude would constantly harass you.

Like a sibling type of friendship.

Sometimes, you would start it by messing up his just finished styled hair

The type to rough house with you, the fake punching, the silly wrestling, the whole nine! 

Just a big pain in the ass to you but you wouldn’t trade him for the world 

He’s there whenever you need him though! Yeah he likes to goof but you need support and he’s got your back 110%! 

Even when you don’t make the right decisions lmao

Minho

The type to be disappointed in you (like a dad) when you get back with that one toxic ex.

"If they make you cry again, I'm not helping you pick up the pieces again."

And then proceeds to help pick up the pieces again. . .

He's the "I told you so" type about it too!

He helps clean your messy room when you aren't feeling well mentally, physically, or both. 💕

Changbin

Wrestling boy # 2

But like more in a cute type of way because he is him duhh lmaoo

Becomes a big baby when you hang out with another one of your friends more than him. 

You went out shopping with Seungmin for a few hours? He’s pouting and claiming you like Seungmin more than him. 

Obviously not true, Changbin is your best friend! No one can take his place!

Hyunjin

Messages you every unnecessary thing that pops up in his head.

"You have no choice. You're going to reuse my socks so you can suffer athletes foot with me."

The energy is very much reciprocated on your end. "Ew gross, I don't want athletes foot from you."

It's a kind of codependent relationship, very rarely does anyone find you guys separated!

"Where's y/n?" "My partner in crime? The love of my life? The peanut butter to my jelly? Their in the bathroom."

Jisung

Gopher! That's the best way to describe it.

This man disappears from you anywhere from a week to almost a month and then he pops back up like nothing happened

And when he comes back, he's right there telling you all the crazy stories he's been through in such a short period of time.

One time, the two of you had gotten together just to catch up.

He told you that he'd gotten lost in Canada and somehow wound up in Mexico.

Just a little messy stories

Always comes back with the best stories!

Felix

The type to give you things that remind him of you.

He bought you a little gnome because it was a part of some inside joke you guys had from years ago

Constant sleepovers because it's also a small codependent relationship

Neither of you can cook very well, baking? yeah. But cooking? Absolutely not.

So much so that the oldest members banned from doing it because of the amount of times you guys set off the fire alarm.

Seungmin

Also the type to roast your ass.

But not just about you going back to your ex.

The dude would make fun of that one time you mispronounced a word 5 years ago and still laughs his ass off about it

Remember the time you fell in the parking lot of the grocery store? He definitely does!

"You should have seen the way you landed!"

"That was 10 years ago! Let it go!"

Jeongin

The chillest type relationship

Y'all could just be rotting in bed together and you're having the time of your life together

But you guys communicate through looks whenever something funny or otherwise happens.

No words, just looks

Ideal type of friendship though

[agoddamn]

Something something something the SW fandom's obsession with overhyping the Master/Padawan bond is fascinatingly self-destructive and enables the exact toxic codependencies/behavior that the Jedi Order is generally accused of being Bad for

The idea of shared Master/Padawan apartments has been fucking undying in fandom--which is interesting, because canon shows the exact opposite: private rooms and agemate dorms.

This is not to say that the idea of shared apartments is bad ofc--and naturally, it's just convenient in a drama sense for your characters to be in the same place!

But I think it's not unrelated to the fandom's obsession with forcing the Jedi into a traditional nuclear family mold. The master has to be the Parent, so they must host the child, because this is a Normal Relationship. There is no growing beyond this or encouraging independence with dorm living, there are no changes to accommodate community life--this is the Correct way to Have Family and by fucking God, the characters are going to perform it to a tee.

Canon examples of the Master/Padawan bond cast it as not terribly impressive. Anakin can't even tell if Ahsoka is alive when she's off-planet. Other forms of connection are more important than the M/P bond--talking, making the active choice to trust. Characters with the M/P bond lie to one another all the time. It's special, but it isn't sacred.

Idk, like--the fixation on defining the M/P relationship as sacred and inviolable reminds me a lot of the detrimental IRL fixations on what a child "needs" (ie one male parent and one female parent, roughly one sibling, a house with a sedan) and obsessions with romanticization of the parental relationship (a parent could never hurt their child, a parent knows best, blood is special, always forgive your family, etc).

Canon seems to be making an effort to paint a young Jedi as a youth who connects with and learns from many people, not just one ultimate be-all-end-all arbiter. Ahsoka learns different and even somewhat contradictory things from Aayla, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Sinube, etc. There isn't--or there isn't supposed to be--a singular most important person.

This doesn't match a lot of our most common drama tropes, so it gets a bit tossed out the window like a lot of other Jedi lore/implications.

This post is a mess but -waves hands- fever

[the-courage-to-heal]

Is there a term for being assigned caretaker role but for friends? Like parentification for kids raising their siblings but being slapped with that label by peer "friends" or people who feel the need to be taken care of by those they consider their best friend? I knew someone who did that to me and after I was like "I love X she's like my daughter!" but then took it literally and kept calling me her "group mom" and said I had to look after her and be a big sister to her.

Hi I’m going to be quoting this article link here

What you’re describing sounds like a codependent friendship. You are not in a place of parental responsibility for any of your friends and that’s an unfair burden to place on you. Often people who find themselves in these sort of friend groups may have fulfilled a parental role in their own family. These cycles often perpetuate themselves. I hope this article helps you to make sense of what you’re experiencing!

What is a Codependent Friendship?

Codependency in friendship is characterized by an overly persistent reliance on one another. There will always be both taker and giver roles in a codependent friendship. The taker may need emotional support from the giver, while the giver might, in turn, get a much-needed self-esteem boost or a feeling of importance from their role in the friendship.

Signs of Codependency in Friendships

Ultimately, codependent relationships are unhealthy and toxic for both parties involved. Boundaries tend to be blurred in codependent friendships, and it’s common for both people to lose their sense of self as the friendship becomes more intertwined on all levels.

While not all unhealthy relationships are codependent, there are some telltale signs that codependency might be something you’re dealing with.

1. One person is always trying to “fix” the other’s problems

It’s common in codependent friendships for the person playing the giver role to always feel a deep sense of responsibility towards the taker.

Givers often want to fix problems, which can come at a price. The cost sometimes can even cause the giver pain as they spend exorbitant amounts of time, energy, and sometimes even money helping the taker.

2. One person needs to be rescued

In any relationship, it’s important to be willing to help someone you care about. It’s equally as important to be able to accept help if it’s coming from a good place. However, in a codependent friendship, there won’t be any reciprocation aspect, so one person is constantly giving to the other, despite knowing that if and when they themselves need help, their partner won’t be capable of returning the favor.

3. One person has anxiety or fears about the relationship

Takers may experience feelings of anxiety when their friend is not around or can’t spend time with them. They may start overthinking and obsessing over a fear that the relationship might end. Because of this, takers may become self-conscious that their friend might not want to spend time with them.

4. One or both people experience a feeling of burnout

Eventually, someone is going to feel the sensation of emotional burnout after being in a codependent relationship. The cyclical, repetitive taking and giving can only last so long. Particularly for the person in the giver role, the cycle can be exhausting, depleting a little bit more of their energy and happiness every time they engage until they get to the point that they have nothing left to give (to themself or their friend).

5. One or both people heavily rely and depend on the friendship

Being comfortable in a relationship is great, but when one or both of you become so dependent on the other person you can’t function alone any longer, it’s unhealthy. Though the roles are different, codependency can still have a dramatic impact on both the giver’s and the taker’s psyches.

6. Both people tend to be upset at the same time

It might sound a little strange, but it’s very common for people in codependent relationships to experience shared emotions. You may take on feelings of duress, stress, anger, or even happiness based on how your friend is feeling. Rather than having individual, personal reactions to situations or experiences, people in codependent friendships often find their mood is easily dictated by their friends’ moods.

7. Individual choices aren’t common

Not only do codependent friends tend to take on one another’s emotions, but they also might find it difficult to make their own choices when they’re together. Further, they might stifle their own needs and can even have a sense of guilt if they try to establish independence from their friend.

8. Opinions are streamlined

Just as it can be difficult to make individual decisions and choices in a codependent friendship, expressing opinions can be equally as hard. For people who have a codependent friend, it might feel easier to just go along with what the friend thinks or feels rather than risk any source of tension in the friendship by disagreeing or expressing individual opinions.

9. The relationship is draining on one or both people

A codependent friendship can be exhausting for both people involved. It can suck all the life out of you. These unhealthy relationships often leave little time to focus on anything other than that specific friendship. The relationship can become draining and taxing, both mentally and physically, resulting in a lack of energy and time to put into other aspects of life.

10. One person’s needs come first

This might be one of the most obvious signs of codependency in friendship. If one person is continuously putting the other’s needs before their own, there’s a good chance you’re dealing with a codependent friendship.

11. Jealousy is common

Jealousy is a common theme in a lot of codependent friendships. It makes sense that if someone is overly dependent on a friend, it can be difficult for them to accept that person bonding or becoming close with someone else outside the friendship.

12. The relationship has high expectations or obligations

The expectations placed on the giver in a codependent relationship can be daunting. The dysfunction in the friendship may result in one person being expected to sacrifice and give anything and everything to the person who fills the taker role.

13. There’s a high level of emotional need

Codependent friendships often involve incredible levels of emotional dependency between both people. Essentially, though it may not be obvious to those in the relationship, codependency generally involves two people using each other to get what they need emotionally.

14. One person is always giving, while the other is always taking

A hallmark sign of a codependent friendship is they’re strikingly one-sided. As we’ve seen through the roles that are played (we have a giver and a taker), codependency depends on that very thing — one person giving while the other takes. The roles may not ever be reversed, meaning whoever is the giver may rarely, if ever, get their own needs fulfilled in the relationship.

15. Outside friends are cut off

Codependent friendships rely on strict roles that are already being filled. The result can be a very closed-off circle of friends. Because the taker relies on sympathy and care they get, and the giver likely thrives on the power they feel as the caretaker, it’s unlikely that anyone else would be welcomed into the cycle.

16. The relationship feels scripted

The roles in a codependent relationship are stringent and unwavering. As a result, the friendship can start to feel like it’s scripted, playing out the same scenario with the same outcome day after day.

17. One person typically feels used

It’s very common for one person in a codependent friendship to feel used. Whether that’s you or the other party, the feeling can become exhausting.

18. One or both people is inauthentic in the relationship

Authenticity is important in any friendship, but in codependent relationships, one person often feels like they’re hiding or stifling their true self. By ignoring their authentic self, it can be easier to fill their role in the relationship without having to express opinions, feelings, or reactions to situations and events.

19. A distorted sense of reality is present

Because codependency perpetuates a cycle of unhealthy patterns, friendships can end up offering a distorted sense of reality. The giver can internalize a sense of self-importance and worth as they rescue the taker over and over. Likewise, the taker can fulfill their need to be wanted and taken care of.

20. One person in the relationship fills the “decision-making” role

Most takers in a codependent friendship rely heavily on the giver to make virtually all major decisions for them. It can be an incredible sense of stress and may weigh heavily on the giver, especially if things don’t pan out and the taker has someone to blame.

How to Overcome a Codependent Friendship

If you or someone you care about is in a codependent friendship, there’s good news. Regardless of who fills which role, you can learn how to stop being codependent in your friendship.

If your friend is codependent. If you realize that a friend is codependent on you, use the following coping strategies to alter the course of the friendship and develop healthy interactions.

Look back at the history of the friendship

Looking back at your own history can help you determine where in life you developed the need to be a fixer. This knowledge can be a game changer. Studies show that people who end up in adult codependent relationships often come from difficult family life. It’s not uncommon to have more than one codependent relationship, so taking the time to go through this process is likely to help you in numerous aspects of your life.

Put yourself first

It might feel unnatural initially, but learning to put yourself first is incredibly powerful. Setting healthy friendship boundaries and then reinforcing them means that you’ll begin to feel comfortable expressing your own needs, wants, and opinions.

[hyperactivewhore]

I find the argument of Klaus hating Elijah after Hayley's death very interesting. Or when haylijah antis say how Elijah and Hayley never fell truly in love with each other, just their idealized versions.

Hayley and Elijah were both one of the most important persons in Klaus’s life: their opinions and feelings mattered to him, yet Hayley is the only one of the two who actually managed to inspire and make Klaus be good (as much as Klaus Mikaelson can be good), but having Elijah by his side during a thousand made Klaus what he was when we met him in The Vampire Diaries.

Elijah, as much as he loved his brother, couldn't have done what Hayley and Hope did for Klaus and he said it himself in 5x13 of The Originals ("Do you understand you've accomplished in 15 years what I couldn't in a thousand?"). Of course he kept Klaus on a check during all those centuries, and their relationship developed from a normal sibling bond between brothers to a toxic codependent mess, where Klaus was slightly more clingy. Whether Elijah stayed with him because of guilt to what he had done to Aurora, and as a consequence, to his brother, isn't really important considering Klaus killed their mother: he chose to remain at his side during a millennium because despite how toxic their bond was, they loved each other.

And then, Hayley came into the picture.

Both brothers were quickly attracted to her: Klaus and her were kindred souls, in a way. They were both wolves casted out, their parents didn't really care about them and they eventually slept together because of this, and their obvious attraction to each other, causing Hope to be born. However, when Hayley met Elijah, she was pregnant and alone, admitting herself she was scared of the father of her baby, scared of being a mother, and he made her "feel safe", and if I correct, her own subconscious told her she fell for the suit, not Elijah, which makes them look bad to people who don't ship them, and it made them look bad for me at first too, I won't lie. She met him in probably one of the worst times in her life, where she was alone and scared, but Hayley herself admitted to being a monster and that she probably loved Elijah despite what he is, or because of what he is.

When talking to Rebekah (4x12), Hayley admitted she was okay with it and how she was scared of how that would affect Hope, she never wanted her daughter to turn out like her or her father's family, so naturally she pushed Elijah away, like any decent mother would. And Elijah wanted the same too:

(Elijah: "If I thought I couldn't do this, I wouldn't have come. Niklaus, when this is done, I want you to take Hayley and Hope away from this. All of it."

Klaus: "You've pointedly left yourself out of that equation. Whatever Hayley saw in you, she will come to accept.")

Klaus is a selfish man, that isn't a surprise to anyone, and he wasn't gonna watch how Hayley and Elijah, both essential people in his life, broke up leaving him in the dust. I'm referring to what Rebekah said in 5x07: "Why do you think we never tore Elijah and Hayley apart? You knew that Hayley would stay close because of Hope, and as long as Elijah was in love with Hayley, he would never leave you, either". Hayley only stayed in the family because of her daughter and Elijah was around Klaus because he was in love with that same woman: Klaus didn't lose Hayley, the mother of his daughter, an essential part of his life, and he didn't lose Elijah either, his best friend and his lodestar, meaning his guide/inspiration. It's not a secret Elijah is the closest thing Klaus ever got to a good parent, and losing him (and Hayley) because of The Hollow clearly messed up with his mind.

Hayley clearly got over about the red door situation though, as she went to visit him in France, was clearly still in love with him and even asked him for a dance in the afterlife, the closest thing tvdu would give us as an endgame. Her reaction was perfectly understandable: she never broke up with Elijah because of herself, but rather Hope, and they would've clearly found their way back to each other if The Hollow hadn't been a thing.

Elijah probably broke Klaus’s heart in 5x03 when he refused to go back with him to help save Hayley. Her life was on the line, and Klaus couldn't lose her too after losing his brother, but Elijah simply didn't care and Klaus was losing his mind because of it. ("You once convinced me that Hayley's life was worth saving, that my daughter's life was worth saving. Please, Elijah. Hayley is missing. Hayley. Even in your addled state, that name must mean something to you!"). Elijah himself pointed it out later how him rejecting his offer hurt his brother and how he knew Klaus wouldn't return, despite Hayley being in danger, only because his words had practically shattered him: "Yes, I do. They say Elijah Mikaelson was his North Star, that he guided Klaus through the darkest parts of his pathetic life. So to renounce that family, to renounce him the way that I did, I saw it. I watched the light vanish from his eyes. This immovable man, this legendary Niklaus Mikaelson was... broken."

Of course Klaus was weeping after having Elijah, the only person in the world who always thought he was capable of good, of being saved, renounce him. He always thinks of himself first, and he didn't think of coming back to ask his brother for help with Hayley. Of course, then he went to New Orleans (5x04) to search for Hayley himself, endangering Hope and everyone in the city, claiming it was only for his daughter: (All of this... is for my daughter. They took Hayley by force. They tied her down like an animal, because she's different, because they were scared of her. See, that's their language. Fear. Now they'll listen.) (Well, I suggest you amp up your efforts to retrieve her, then. Because if my daughter is not reunited with her mother by sundown,...) but it wasn't only because of Hope. Elijah had practically broken his heart and he was acting like a dick half of the episode mainly because of that, while also making people find Hayley faster:

(Marcel: "This is my family. For the last seven years, I have been a phone call away whenever Hope needed me. I am trying to talk you out of making the biggest mistake of your life. To protect you from yourself. So you don't have to tell Hope that you're the reason that her mother is dead."

Klaus: "He knew! Okay? Elijah knew who he was, and he still told me to leave. I begged him. He didn't want anything to do with any of us. He's gone, Marcellus. He's gone."

Marcel: "I understand. I do. Look, I understand the pain. But you got to move through it, okay? You can't let it cloud your judgment. Not with Hayley's life on the line.")

Finding out Hayley had been mutilated just made everything worse ("Marcel, please, I'm going out of my mind here. Look at what they've done to Hayley. I don't do well without Elijah.") ("Every word of it. Even at our most estranged, there was always a trace of the brother I loved, but not anymore. Every part of him was unfamiliar. I promised Hope I'd bring her mother home safely"). He was losing both of them at the same time and he didn't know how to react, and that just exploded in his face once Elijah didn't save Hayley from dying.

Once Hayley died and Elijah just stood and watched, Klaus did lose all respect for him and probably didn't want to see his face for the next few decades while his memory remained lost, because he knew damn well his brother had practically killed himself by erasing his memories. He literally speaks of amnesic Elijah and his brother like they're different people ("But he did leave! Elijah was always there for me. Swooping in when my rage got the better of me, setting me on a path to redemption. For a thousand years, he made me need him. My brother was my greatest ally. He was the only one who could give me a chance of being worthy of Hope. And he was my best friend. You killed him. And I hate you for that"). ("I made a vow to my brother. That's just the man who got Hope's mother killed"). But once he remembered who he was and what he had done, or rather, what he hadn't done, Klaus was literally mad with him for like what, a week? Two? He loved Hayley a lot, but he loved his brother too.

Don't get me wrong, him not saving Hayley did shatter their bond and was a big reason as to why Klaus was so hostile with him, but Klaus is selfish and he always put his feelings above everything and this situation wasn't a exception. I mean, just look at when he was gonna die: he was sneaking around with Caroline, completely ignoring Hope, something she complained about and something Elijah pointed out. Even Hope forgave him for his part in Hayley's death because she knew he wasn't responsible for what had happened, and neither was she by the way.

The three of them loved Hayley, and Hope and Elijah both loved Klaus, and Klaus loved the three of them, and who he needed/loved more between them is complex, but in my opinion, is more "understandable" when people discuss if Klaus loved Elijah or Hope more, considering he was putting her life in danger for the last seven years because he couldn't stay away from his brother, but he couldn't fathom the idea of Hope dying or leaving him forever either.

[wsancho]

The unconditional Figaro love

It’s mah bois’ birthday!! 🥰👑🐻

I meant to post fanfiction, but I started late and couldn’t finish on time. Plus the fic got some angsty shit going on, and I refuse to soil this day with that 😤

Today we celebrate!! 🎉🎂🍾🥂🎊

Today I spam and ramble 😌

Many of us (by which I mean me, ESPECIALLY ME) fantasize/glorify/fetishize twin relationships, but I have seen twin siblings saying that “it’s not a magical thing, anyone could have that type of deep bond with another person”. The intensity is what sets it apart from the rest, and it could range from the most sickening possessive hate-filled control, to the most detached accepting and nourishing love, passing through the clingiest and most crippling forms of codependency.

I got my own obsessive and ridiculously exaggerated bias about the Figaro twins, but I have seen several playthroughs where they stand out to the player as “the representation of brotherly love”. Even before getting the brothers’ cutscenes (in some cases the players happen to miss the coin scene and/or the reveal at the airship).

People this is brutal, don't do this 😭💔

But it’s always clear that there’s genuine love there.

The word "love" is often misused and abused. When I use it to talk about the Figaro twins’ relationship, I mean unconditional love, as in:

No strings attached

No expectations or demands

No judgment or condemnation

No impositions

No control

Accepting without enabling

Generous without creating dependence

Respectful

Peaceful and calming, because of all of the above

In past posts I mentioned Edgar’s controlling and condescending actions, and also his very codependent nature. Also Sabin’s departure can be interpreted as selfish. Before I backtrack elaborate on that, I think it’s important to suspend disbelief approach the subject of love with the knowledge that each and everyone of us is imperfect, but perfect love is always achievable and within reach. Our deficiencies make it painful, but not impossible.

Let’s get to it!

Edgar taking over as king is the most obvious loving act, because it’s scripted, but the depth of it is revealed in such a subtle and missable way, that forces the viewer to pay attention and to think harder about what we’ve learned about the brothers up to that point. It’s shown in a modest way, as modest as Edgar has been about the action itself. Love does not need praise or recognition, it is its own reward.

Was this condescending? It’s debatable.

Is it condescending to use simpler vocabulary when you speak to a small child? Stepping down from where you’re at to meet the other at their level is respect, not condescendence. To think yourself above the other because of some advantage you have, is condescendence.

Someone described the rigged coin deal as “Edgar letting his brother abandon familial duty while saving face”, and I believe this is a misunderstanding. Sabin doesn’t need to “save face” and Edgar doesn’t see it that way. Sabin was going to leave no matter what, and Edgar was going to stay no matter what. The coin didn’t decide for them, and neither did Edgar. Edgar’s words say it all: the coin meant to free Sabin of guilt, not of duty. Even if Ed breaks his own heart with the outcome.

An even more modest and almost always overlooked act of love (even in real life) happens when the brothers have a little moment alone while mourning their deceased father. Sabin is lashing out at everyone, he even pushes an old lady (the High Priestess) and unfairly accuses her of being as heartless as the Figaro politicians. Again we see Edgar being very tactful and just allowing Sabin to let it all out.

When one gets emotional and others start with the “don’t cry”, “it’s all for the best”, joke-to-make-you-laugh-because-your-pain-makes-ME-uncomfortable... This is all toxic positivity. It’s very refreshing to see that mah bois don’t do this to each other.

There’s even more missable stuff here. In this moment when Sabin cannot contain his rage, is that Edgar tells him pretty much that the politicians are right: the kingdom needs to be looked after. Now this would be a perfect trigger to Sabin, but instead he’s disappointed (of the outcome, not of Edgar). He doesn’t yell nor tries to convince him. Attempting to persuade would be to disregard and disrespect the other's concerns (this goes both ways). At his lowest and most volatile, Sabin is still capable of fully accepting Edgar. In this moment he couldn’t disagree more with Edgar’s views, but chooses to respect him and to still follow through with his own decision, even if it breaks his own heart.

When Edgar makes the proposal, Sabin lowers his head and won’t even look at him or the coin. It's not the bet what matters, he’s just sad Edgar won't join him (we know Sabin doesn’t judge Edgar, and is very proud of him as king and as a person).

Would it have been better if Edgar was sincere? No way to know, but the kingdom was in urgent need of leadership. 10 years later Sabin is still carrying guilt, and we know this because he’s the one to bring up the subject at the end. No one blamed him, not one questioned him and yet he needed to speak up about it for some reason.

Edgar was right in assuming that Sabin would be troubled, and hoped that a little nudge would help him trust his own instincts. But regarding the condescendence part, I think what messed with Sabin was that Edgar kept to himself for a bit too long, making Sabin feel left out 🥺 And I see this as an innocent miscalculation on Edgar’s part. He’s good at reading people, but not infallible.

Is it condescending to use non-technical vocabulary to explain physics to a child? Not at all, unless that child happens to be Michio Kaku, who built a particle accelerator in his parents' garage.

As children the twins spent a lot of time apart due to Sabin being constantly ill and bedridden. By circumstance Edgar would observe and learn things around the castle that Sabin could not. Sabin would necessarily be at a disadvantage in his ability to understand political games. In shielding Sabin, Edgar is giving him the chance to assimilate reality at his own pace, even if it gets lonely for Edgar.

But 10 years later they’re back together, and Edgar doesn’t really know the person Sabin has become (I'm more inclined to think they maintained little to no communication, the only part I have not pulled an explanation out of my ass cannot justify is how casual they are when meeting again at Mount Kolts), so Edgar still treats his brother as he always did, only now trusting that he’s big and strong and healthy and can take care of himself… But he’s not aware of Sabin's growth as a person (and to be fair, Sabin clearly has some more growing up to do). Edgar keeps to himself because he wants to prevent Sabin from returning to Figaro out of guilt, he wants Sabin to have his freedom always. This is where he miscalculates, because he never knew where Sabin was coming from:

Sabin didn’t want to be away from Figaro, he wanted to define his own individuality without their influence

He never intended to stay away for good, he intended to come back and contribute in his own way

He didn’t join the Returners just because there was an emergency, he joined because now he knew the part he could play in the big picture

As mature as Edgar is, he’s a bit damaged and never really gave himself the chance to prioritize his own needs, it might even be a blindspot. The skirt-chasing seems to be the only thing he does for the pure pleasure of it, but even that ended up turning into work, at least once. This is why I said in a previous post that it would take patience on Sabin’s part to get close to him again. Because for Edgar to feel assured that Sabin came back of his own free will, it would require a clear and repeated pattern where

Sabin demonstrates that he sees the castle as home and does not feel aversion towards it

Sabin comes back during times of peace, when there’s no emergency and no threats to deal with, he comes back and stays because he wants to, not because he has to

Sabin shows genuine interest in government matters. Otherwise Edgar would not burden him with any of it

Sabin stays as carefree and joyful as always. That’s all Ed wants for his little bro, whom he thinks he still needs to protect (again, nothing but an error in judgment)

And only then would Edgar maybe possibly perhaps probably consider sharing more of his concerns allow himself to rely on Sabin Sabin to shoulder some of the burdens 🫠🫠🫠🫠

From what my biased ass infers, I think Sabin is doing all of that, to extent of his possibilities. It’s hard to love someone who’s so guarded. Yet Sabin is doing exactly that. It’s not just about getting Edgar to reciprocate and grow out of his ways. In staying close while demonstrating confidence, Sabin is allowing Edgar the chance to assimilate the new reality at his own pace, even if it’s lonely for Sabin, because if he pushes, this might turn Edgar too self-conscious.

Love is not for the weak, and mah precious Figaro twins are fucking powerhouses 😤❤️💪🏼👑🐻

Braindump list here.

[saimotass]

unfortunately i do like the coffin of andy and leyley. however! i'm not one of those weirdos that ships andrew and ashley together, and you shouldn't be either! anyway more thoughts on my stance below the cut

i'm not a fan of the fact that the incest is there - i understand why, as another way that ashley can manipulate andrew's emotions and affections, and it's supported as an interpretation in the text. but their relationship could still be just as toxic and codependent as it is in-game without that being a canonized route. the overtones and subtext will be there regardless, and i do view it as part of andrew's character that he has a subconscious attraction to ashley, but there are other ways for their dynamic to change other than canonizing and romanticizing the romantic undertones of their relationship.

i understand that it's fictional and that it's also not the only morally reprehensible thing that the graves siblings do in the game. however, the incestuous dynamic between them only manifests on the route where they're both still alive and both coming to more of an understanding with one another. while, yes, neither route is a particularly good one for either of them, the questionable route being an offshoot of the burial route (the route where ashley continues to get everything she wants out of andrew) inherently paints the dynamic as a better solution than ashley and andrew getting their comeuppance for their crimes.

i am aware that not every story needs a moral backbone - some of the best stories have reprehensible things happen in them and their perpetrators never see retribution. however, when people outside of those stories read them, they affect reality and their perception of it. all good stories do. no matter what, fiction does affect reality and the way we interact with it, because fiction is inherently based in reality - even sci-fi, fantasy, speculative fiction.

people actively shipping and glorifying the incestuous dynamic between andrew and ashley affects the perception of incestuous dynamics in the real world for those people. ignoring the manipulative tactics that led to that route leads to more tolerance of those manipulative tactics. even when people claim that they know better, it still affects their perception, even the slightest bit. and people who aren't aware of the context seeing their incestuous relationship being glorified will assume the context makes the situation more palatable than it actually is.

ashley's been really good at manipulation thus far, it stands to reason that she could probably figure out a way to keep andrew along without resorting to incest. he's already pretty clearly devoted to her as an older brother, she could keep using their familial relationship as a means of manipulating him, or hell, eventually if andrew ends up fighting back there could be a route where she kills him and ends up using another person later, this time with romantic and/or sexual motivations. i've seen suggestions that it could even end up being julia, which would both make sense and add to the fucked up nature of ashley's motivations and manipulation.

andrew's underlying attraction to his sister could be refuted more openly and clearly. his reactions to other people noticing their dynamic could be more overtly against the idea. he could start trying to distance himself from her as a means of putting a boundary. he could be more forceful with setting up that boundary with her when she teases him about it. all of the reactions in-game lead people to assume that andrew wants this, potentially even more than ashley, and that because of that, it's okay because they're "consenting" to it.

there is no consent in this relationship - ashley has been manipulating him since they were kids, their power dynamic is uneven and leads to ashley taking advantage of his emotions, and ashley's been essentially grooming him into seeing her as the only woman in his life for years at this point. not saying andrew is without fault here, but putting myself in that position, if i had a younger sister who threatened me for a murder i was an unwilling accomplice to, all because she was jealous that i was starting to have a life of my own with people that aren't her, i would have felt similarly helpless.

[thesoulesscollection]

*falls in from the void to send you this message before being sucked back into the void* What is the relationship like between Choc and Honey as siblings? Is it good, bad,–I think there might be other siblings aside from them too? If there are, what's the relationship like between them all?

It's so nice to see you again :). Hope you're doing well and everything is okay. I do hope this answers the question like asked. But it was so much fun. 

I've been craving to explore and explain their relationship as siblings. It's complicated and it took me a while.  

It's not good but not bad? But not nonexistent either as surprisingly for some people they're closer then what is anticipated for them. They do care in their own respective (not great nor healthy) way. 

They spend most of their free time at the rich residence of Honey's lavish estate to gossip and or both help with the business affairs. Or rarely in the relative ‘safety’ of the Toppat clan whenever Honey decides to visit her brother and niece. 

However they don't entirely trust one another, expectant to backstab if given the chance. 

Truthfully they're codependent and toxic as it comes, they bring out the good, yes but also more the bad and ugly within. However in the same breath, the siblings are the ride and die type. Both willing to drop nearly anything to help, no questions asked even if it may be questionable or deplorable, moral code wise. 

There's no other siblings besides the two with Choc being the oldest out of the two by three and a half years. Which likely is for the best anyways since there's the generational ‘bad luck’ that inevitably left the Kinsley lineage slowly die out. So recently, it's only Honey, Choc and Choc's daughter, Cherry. 

[csuftitans]

CSUF's Official Review of The Coffin of Andy and Leyley.

Minor spoilers for episode 1 and an ending for episode 2

Having complete the burial ending (will be doing decay later when I finish more work) I have to say that this shouldn't have been a game, but some sort of animated series. No one talks about how good the puzzles or gameplay are. The dialogue and plot are the main draw, and I think a game is almost a waste of them. Obviously the multiple endings could only work in this medium, but that could be fixed the way Evangelion handled it.

I also think calling it "the incest game" is like calling The Last of Us "the hospital game" because yes, that's a major plot point, but that is far from the only thing the game has going on and honestly doing so doesn't do anything but hurt the reputation of the game among outsiders who would otherwise be interested in the game.

Ashley and Andrew have some of the best chemistry I've seen in a fictional duo and I hate it. You can tell they spent most of their lives together and aside from, you know, it's pretty realistic. I can tell the creator has a sibling because normally this type of relationship wouldn't be done in such a believable way. They know exactly what makes the other person tick, and they are not afraid to piss each other off if need be.

I'll say that I don't really like the occult in media cause it's a really easy cop out to make something edgier, but I'm honestly fine with the way it's more of a thing that happens than the two being these Satan worshipping cannibals. I'm interested to see how the cult plays a role in the next episode, especially since Andrew's palm marking hints at something big.

This game also has a few moments where the author's a bit too edgy. Not like creepypasta blood everywhere type of edgy, but in a "You're not concerned with a demon saying you have a tar colored soul" way. This isn't often but it's enough to where I don't feel like it's trying too hard.

Lastly, yes I think the incest dream is weird. It's supposed to be weird, they're psychopaths who kill and eat their parents. The dev isn't trying to normalize incest, he's trying to show how their lives have become so reliant on each other that any intimate connection with another human has to be between them. It's not healthy, and it shouldn't be supported. The creator isn't condoning it (imo the "Cry about it" art is meant to be him saying that he can put whatever they want in their game) and as I said before, it's not what the game should be known for.

Overall, I think if you're not turned off by the idea of cannibalism, the occult, toxic codependency, and of course, incest, then you'll find that the 10 dollars is well spent, especially since the fandom is not only growing but there's still a lot to happen between now and the release of episode 3. 8/10

[shipcestuous]

The Coffin of Andy and Leyley (Episode 2)

@dragomer: We got canon future incest in The Coffin of Andy and Leyley now in chapter 2.

/

Anon #1: Hiiiii! Have you heard of the game The Coffin of Andy and Leyley? It’s mainly a horror game about cannibalism and murder, BUT it’s centered around two siblings who have a toxic, insanely codependent relationship. They’re really weird about each other but still so very much like your typical pair of bickering siblings. If you have heard of it, it’s FINALLY (yay!!) in early access right now, and part 2 (of 4) is released! Also, (SPOILERS? But it’s technically all over the Steam page reviews) canon content is 100% confirmed to contain explicit, undeniable incest in one of its routes! Like. It’s not subtext anymore. Not even sugarcoating this; it’s depicted pretty straightforwardly. And imo it’s arguably one of the “healthier”—for lack of a better word? bc I don’t think they’ll ever really be healthy by conventional standards—routes for the siblings’ relationship. If you haven’t played it yet, or haven’t checked out the newest installment, definitely recommend! The first ep was great but the second is FANTASTIC

/

Anon #2: Hi, this is the anon who was so enthusiastic about the Coffin of Andy and Leyley a couple of months ago. The full game is now in early access and can be bought on Steam, as the creator has decided (after a community poll) to release the rest of the game episodically. Currently episode 1 (which was the demo) and the shiny new episode 2 are available, with episodes 3A and 3B (different routes based on the choices made previously) being slated for release somewhere in 2024. So, we still have to wait sometime before the full game is finished. But for now, what does Episode 2 – ‘Graves’ offer us? (Warning: some spoilers) The answer is: pure gloriousness. It’s even better than I could've imagined in my wildest dreams. The relationship between Andrew and Ashley is just that amazing. Over the course of the (horrible, awful, and darkly hilarious) events comprising episode 2, we learn a lot more about our favourite pair of cannibalistic siblings. Their not-too-pleasant childhood is explored through multiple dreams and flashbacks, and for the first time we also have segments where we play as Andrew, providing the reader with direct access to what he actually thinks (and feels!) in regards to his beloved sister. And oh boy are his thoughts interesting! A lot of people who picked up on the interesting vibes between them in the first chapter assumed that they were mostly the result of Ashley’s obsessiveness, but this chapter contains an infinite amount of hints that Andrew is actually the one whose feelings towards his sibling are the most ‘romantic’ in the classic sense of the word. The way he physically touches her, the jealousness and protectiveness which was already present in the first chapter but whose full depth we actually see now for the first time, the fact that he regularly shares a bed with her to stave off his nightmares and panic attacks, but then it is revealed that he sometimes fakes them! In one flashback he asks his ex-girlfriend to tie her hair up, which would very obviously make her look even more like Ashley than she already does! At one point he literally thinks this about his sister: “You're struck with an odd urge to pull this broody bitch into your arms, and force her to stay until she smiles. But you push such an idea to the back of your mind. Where it may fester with all the other thoughts you wish you never had.” Ahhh, It’s almost too much, and that’s not even the best part yet of the episode! Depending on the choices you make, a situation can occur in which the siblings have a prophetic dream together (after falling asleep while holding hands! This game is just too much...). The contents of the dream? Well... I don’t want to spoil too much but let’s just say that a canonical incest route has now been 100% confirmed. I’ve already seen the artwork from that scene floating around on tumblr so people who have been following the TCOAAL tags might have seen it already. I could ramble about this game for hours on end but I feel like I’ve been writing and potentially spoiling way too much already. This game has completely taken over my brain and I just wanted to share that. I regret nothing!

/

This is such great news that you all bring! It does sound better than we had any reason to hope for. I will definitely have to play this, but I may wait until it is complete and officially released.

I'm so excited that the creator went full tilt on the incest, and that those of you who shipped it so hard after the demo are being rewarded with such glorious developments.

[partywithponies]

*they're half-siblings. the idea in my head is that their relationship is so fucked up that they accidentally have every kind of relationship at once. they're siblings. they're best friends. they're bitter rivals. they're partners in crime. they're parent/child. they're an old married couple. they're divorced. they're obsessed with each other. they resent each other. they could never love anyone they way they love each other. you can't have one without the other. they make each other so much worse. they're each other's moral core and losing each other would send them completely off the deep end. it's complicated.

[slimeclimbtime]

longfic masterlist! ༉‧₊♡

(note: all longfics are fics that are at least 5 chapters or more. fics that are 4 chapters or less are in the oneshot category.)

all fics listed are in the order of release, with completion as a second order.

fractals and dominos - a ZOOM-team centric magic realism/horror fic inspired by persona 5 and no straight roads, with life lessons and a screw the entertainment industry agenda where ZOOM team must go through districts to free their best friends (complete, 14 chapters)

even stars die eventually - a GGANG-team centric fantasy au based off the protect the princess game, including jeongjian as a primary ship with gods, intense fights, and sacrifice, where jianyu places everything on the line, including his life, to find his lover in the wake of a war (complete, 15 chapters)

when the sun finds you - a Rush Hour-team centric dreamcore-esque horror crackfic, based off of the survival announcement introductions with found family and side rickyxiang where seongmin wakes up in an alternate reality where he must save his team's failing family before dark forces kill them all (complete, 6 chapters)

god-shattering mania - the sequel to fractals and dominos centered around the catchphrase group from one of the planet camp tours (woongki, mingyu, jihoo, gunwook, and taerae). similar structure to fnd, but more action-based, where they must free their friends to save their own world (complete, 13 chapters)

a storm named after you - a shorter jeongjian fake/forced marriage au crackfic with priest park hanbin, seunghwan subtly vying for jianyu, jeonghyeon going through his jealousy era, and wakeone destruction where jianyu volunteers to fake marry jeonghyeon to take the heat off of zb1 (complete, 7 chapters)

a dais at daybreak - a full fantasy book including a large scale fantasy war, jeongjian enemies to friends to lovers, and questionable morals and high stakes all in one, where a cursed-to-be-immortal jeonghyeon is freed by his worst nightmare, jianyu, and has to face the oncoming threat of a civil war because of it (compete, 60 chapters)

another gleam in the dark - my zerobaseone x detroit become human crossover, featuring main characters hanbin, gyuvin, and ricky. includes heavy canon divergence to allow non-fans of dbh to read as well. a fic where three storylines intertwine in a futuristic city—an android built to hunt other androids, an android taking care of a human, and an android who loses everything and becomes the face of a revolution (ongoing, 15/28)

five nights at haobin's - a crackfic fnaf crossover ft. min wage worker park hanbin, anthonny phone guy, haobin being fazbear entertainment, and animatronics that look a little too much like zb1 members, where park hanbin decides to work for hao and hanbin and ends up getting tangled in an even deeper mess (complete, 5 chapters)

that love song locker combination - a junhwan-centric highschool romance comedy set in the late 2000s, with ggang team plot, cliches, and dog union friends as well, where junhyeon comes to find out that his own friends are not the people they seem, and after getting stranded with one of the outcasts, finds his own identity (complete, 16 chapters)

guardian of the unholy - a paralogue for a dais at daybreak, centered around kamjay involving alien technology and outer space where jay is called to kamden's land in order to investigate their ancient technology, finding out a whole new world and an even bigger threat in the process (complete, 5 chapters)

tea time for two - an alice in murderland manga au of zb1 with rickgeon, massive stakes, magical abilities, toxic and codependent relationships, chekov's armory, and heavy action and plot twists both, where ricky must compete with his eight other siblings in a death game to inherit the zerobaseone estate, discovering the truth behind his past and just how complicated his family runs. my best work to date (complete, 25 chapters)

before the light fades - a zb1 x the endless movie fic, with haoricky brothers, a ufo death cult in the form of zerobaseone, and lovecraftian monsters both brothers have to face, along with their past where the two of them struggle for control in the wake of their menial life and the loss of their mother (complete, 6 chapters)

surface tension - a gunhao action/adventure secret agent high school undercover au with body-snatching, dry humor, and an enemies to lovers romance with two rivals who can't stand each other but have to look out for each other in the wake of a possible apocalypse beginning to start at a high school (ongoing, 9/11)

[soemthingsparkly]

i would absolutely love to share a rant!

all the characters are so psychologically fucked up in such a realistic way that i didn't see represented much. grian venting to tango about feeling left out. the fact that he felt left out at all over something so small. they're so codependent and i love it.

and then there's scott and jimmy's dynamic. scott kissing jimmy and then jimmy venting to grian and then grian just responding with "HE DID WHAT??????" and then at the cafe. the idea of someone doing something they shouldn't have and then having a panic attack over a third party's opinion on it is so... idk how to say it. like i said, a type of fucked up that you don't see talked about much and i relate so hard to it. it's clear scott's probably trying his best out at least trying a lot to not hurt jimmy but he's failing miserably and i don't think he even realizes it. and like. yeah. ive been there. i don't actually know why scott broke up with him but i get the vibe it was supposed to be like. to help jimmy in some way. like "oh wait ive been toxic maybe i should end this for his sake". but doing that obviously hurt jimmy, especially since he didn't say *why* he did it. and scott obviously did something really drastic and sudden so he's not doing well either and he really wants to go back to jimmy. he knows he's being manipulative and it's not on purpose but in trying to stop and be better he keeps making things worse. and like. this is all a side thing. this fic is mostly about mumscarian and you threw in this flower husbands sideplot but it's still so fleshed out and so *real*.

and speaking of the mumscarian thing the way you write their friendships, especially grian and mumbo's is amazing. it's not like. a stepping stone to a romantic relationship even though they are going to end up in one. very "not more than friends, different from friends" vibes /vpos. it doesn't feel like they're ending up in a romantic relationship. it feels like they're making their relationship romantic and i love that so much.

grian just texting mumbo that he's bored gives such hcs7 vibes and like he yeah they're so codependent and it's so obvious from grian's side my god

and the way you write pearl is amazing, she's got this sibling energy and it's great.

the way you write all of them is amazing actually. i can hear everything they say in their voices. the clockers are on point, especially scar and bdubs.

i could keep going im sure lmao but anyway great fic i love it if you read this ill cry /pos

This has been sitting in my ask box for a while because I just love it so much anon and I was like~~~ how do I respond to such a long ask with the same level of enthusiam?

I wanna break this ask into chunks and there's bits of your ask I wanna respond to directly, so...

all the characters are so psychologically fucked up in such a realistic way that i didn't see represented much.

I'm glad you think so! I definitely feel like I'm being a little bit risky with how I'm presenting some of the, I suppose, human consequences of being human?

I think a lot of what fandom (in general) consumes gets a little over-sanitised these days. Our favourite characters aren't allowed to be flawed like real people, they must be flawed in a way that is either endearing, entertaining (sarcastic or snarky), or easily forgivable.

But that's not always that interesting when it comes to wanting characters we can truly relate to?

Grian gets upset he's left out not just because he has Trauma™, but because he does have a co-dependancy on Mumbo that borders on unhealthy. Tango tells Grian to, in not so many words, get over himself and try and have fun - not because he knew Grian would respond well to it, but because he's blunt and doesn't know how to comfort people gently. Bdubs makes fun of Scar for being disabled, because he knows that everybody in that group chat understands he's joking and that his comments will never leave that group chat (in-world that is, of course, everybody who reads the fic will read them).

And Scott for example, is not a very well-liked character amongst readers at the moment, but he's absolutely one of my favourite to write. You put it pretty well here:

he knows he's being manipulative and it's not on purpose but in trying to stop and be better he keeps making things worse.

Like yes, exactly. He's trying to do better, but the actions he takes that he thinks (or is being co-erced into believing via mental illness) will make things better, keep making things worse and he doesn't really understand how to do it right. And haven't we all been in that position before?

And yet up until chapter 17, we've only ever seen into their dynamic from the outside. We've only ever seen Scott's actions from Jimmy's POV or from the POV of someone who cares about Jimmy.

And somehow it's Jimmy, of all people, defending Scott.

It's absolutely fascinating to see readers reactions and I'd be so happy to talk about this forever and ever and ever, hehehe.

And what you said about Mumbo and Grian's relationship, here:

very "not more than friends, different from friends" vibes /vpos. it doesn't feel like they're ending up in a romantic relationship. it feels like they're making their relationship romantic and i love that so much.

I'm actually SO glad you feel that way about them, because that's exactly the way I feel about them, too. They're not just friends, so much as they're Grian and Mumbo. The idea of them being friends almost suggests an alternative of them being not friends and I just don't there's a way in this world that they can exist and be without one another. So yes, I love this a lot and I love that you feel that way about them.

Thank you so much for this absolutely beautiful message - I am such a fan of analysing characters and their interactions and all that. Frankly, thank you for giving me a space to talk at length about the way these characters are in this fic!!

Here is a tissue for the tears, I hope you don't cry too hard. Remember to stay hydrated <333

Lumi <3

[readingtostaysane]

What I'd Rather Not Think About by Jente Posthuma - review

rating: ⭐⭐⭐⭐ (4.25)

What I’d rather not think about follows the story of an unnamed female narrator whose twin brother has committed suicide. It spans over their childhood until two years after the death of the brother. It sets to deal with themes such as self discovery and complex relationships, both as siblings but also as individuals.

I’ll start with the critics:

The dynamics between the twins are odd at best, but I’ve also never had a twin, I only have a sibling and maybe they’re a kind of a different bond. Still I wished the novel had more bantering between siblings, to show an accurate depiction of family bonds. We do get the sense they love each other, but the brother is unlikable, which usually doesn’t bother me, and it didn’t bother me here, but I wish I had something more.

However, The novel deals with codependency and detachment in a very balanced way which I enjoyed.

The book includes facts about a lot of horrible historic people that harmed innocents. I found those references irrelevant and didn’t add much to the overall plot, nor for the development of characters. They served one purpose: to show that our narrator lived in the early 2000 and could google things, still I think it could’ve been shown without tragic holocaust facts.

Your gift isn’t a gift, it’s a defect, said my brother. You can’t keep your distance.

Eventually people grow out of their childhood and need to learn how to land on both of their feet alone, but what happens when you’ve never spent a second alone? Not even in the uterus? That’s why this book exists.

Our main character is very dependent on her older brother, and it becomes toxic and self-destructive very fast. This behavior causes the twins to have fights and disagreements and adding to the depression both of them have, they grow apart.

The novel explores self identity, forgiveness and personal boundaries within sibling relationships, however it never forgets to address the love that exists in that special bond.

Both of the siblings travel solo, have love relationships and different goals in life, we as readers follow their growth into their own selves, for better or for worse.

I can never get it right with you, said my brother. Why are you always so pushy? I’m trying to reach out to you, I said. Hello! Hello, said my brother. Here I am. He closed his eyes to concentrate on tasting the meat.

As the mental health of the brother deteriorates we see the author address a complex and sour topic: how do you help someone with depression. It’s the best part of the book and why it earned its rating for me.

Seeing someone you love succumb to depression is not easy, and you don’t always have to patience to deal with it. It most definitely not always end with a happy ending, in the end the brother still killed himself. I loved how the sister tried to reach out to him and he wouldn’t let her, because sometimes that’s what happens, people feel alone and they don’t want to be helped. This book does an excellent job at showing that without blaming the person who commits suicide. It also shows the flaws os someone trying to reach out, the sister could’ve done more, she could’ve paid more attention, and yet she didn’t but no one can say it’s her fault her brother is dead.

The author deals with this topic with such delicacy but at the same time such ease it really pulls you inside the story.

I’m trying to understand him. When someone says they love you but still ends up leaving, I can’t understand it. I don’t believe in that kind of love

This leaves us with the aftermath of mourning the death of a person who took their own life. It truly amazed me to see how the narrator went through different stages of grief in such curt pages. The anger and sadness both contrast each other in this part of the novel and yet none wins.

She’s still alive, he’s still alive, I thought every time someone walked by. She didn’t throw herself in front of a train. Everyone who’s still alive clearly thinks life is worth living. Clearly, I think life is worth living.

In the end of the novel the narrator still feels sad, as grief never truly goes away, but she also reaches peace with what happened. I really enjoyed reading both their journey into adulthood and dealing with the anguish and the happiness of life.

Many people might think this book doesn’t go deep enough into the grief, but I found it the perfect book at the right time for me. The small references of mundane things added to the story in my opinion, they felt vital to bring the characters to life and shaping them into real people.

I’ll end my review with my favourite quote:

I thought about all the love we have inside us and how only a shred of that reaches the people we care about

[wroughted]

instead of a big formal post im just going to continue to spit out random wrought lore when i feel like it :)

WROUGHT LORE DUMP HOORAY 🔒😈

• wrought killed his abusive parents when she was 7 to escape with her little sister but his sister got sick with something mundane like a cold and died anyways within the week. he has never fully processed or recovered from this.

• wrought doesn’t know how old he is <3 (its about 35 probably) but he has no clue he doesn’t know his birthday or anything i don’t think his parents celebrated it in the first place but also. the…brain damage from how she grew up plays a part

• pre-tadpole he was in an extremely toxic situationship and with a dragonborn named epitaph who was a Bad Person. wrought wasn’t good either but in comparison to epitaph she’s an angel lmao. toxic butch on butch violence yay :)

• he LOOOOOVES lying its her favorite pastime :) think shawn spencer from psych type lying. like ridiculous levels of tomfoolery and shenanigans >:)

• he’s EERILY good at mimicking/changing his voice. she used a completely different voice from his actual voice around the companions until one day he just dropped it and everyone was like “DID ANYONE REALIZE THAT WASN’T HIS VOICE?!?!”

• continuing from the last 2 points wrought doesn’t understand how to be a Person unless she’s mimicking it for most of his life. wyll is key in him understand who He is and how to like. be okay with Feeling!!! [my brother’s ocs are also MAJOR factors, one of them and wrought were roommates before the epitaph incident when wrought got too…unsettling and scared him off but they reconnect and are like siblings :’)]

• for some in game mechanic/play lore a BIG defining thing was he let astarion kill him when drinking his blood. wrought SOMEHOW hasn’t died after living so stupid and dangerously (and being yknow homeless. yay urchin bg) and basically has no fear of death now as long as its weird and for a bit or something. just very curious and unfazed by the whole deal and thought it would be cool to see what would happen if a vampire drank all his blood. wasn’t even mad @ astarion the next day which i think freaked astarion out a bit because well. thats weird wrought!!!!

• wyll is wrought’s first REAL relationship he’s NEVER had these feelings!!!! he slept with people all the time (milfs mostly bc they are obsessed with her 😌) whether for fun or mostly to get info/steal from people lmao…the closest to a “relationship” was epitaph which was bad and fucked up in every way and wouldve gotten wrought killed if epitaph hadn’t just happened to die

• besides wyll, wrought’s best friend is astarion and they are VERY codependent and sooo fucking weird together they make me want to cry <3

• need to talk more about just wyllwrought but they are t4t. this is essential. <3 <3

• most importantly wrought has a giant dick. <3