#tw spottedleafs heart

[wc-confessions]

TW for pedophilia and grooming mention (spottedleaf’s heart or whatever it’s called)

I was 13/14 when I read spottedleafs heart and didn’t read thistleclaw and spottedpaws relationship as pedophilic or realise that spottedpaw was being groomed. I felt so guilty afterwards when watching people talk about the book. I didn’t ship it or anything I hated thistleclaw but yeah it sucks how the Erin’s portrayed it. It’s weird to think about what could’ve happened if I didn’t realise those relationships were so wrong

.

[artaintfartwarriors]

Could you draw fenneldust and batear from spottedleaf heart (if it allowed unnamed retcon cats name)?

Don’t see why not!

[cheecats]

In reviews of the book, there were some children who openly said they were like 12 or so and said the book was good bc it showed how important it is to keep secrets and were talking positively about the relationship between spotted and thistle 🫠 the erins really fucked up that one

^ my fucking face reading this shit. I need to kill the erins with my bare hands [ref: X]

[everybody-loves-purdy]

[menacetomany]

sometimes i think about tigerpaw.

tigerpaw who just lost his father figure, and had thistleclaw as a replacement. His strong, brave, noble mentor. 

A mentor who taught him an ideology of violence, forced him to train with his claws out all the time (which is literally risking his life in addition to being abusive! in the warriors universe they don’t have antibiotics so every single time a wound happens you risk infection and death), and molded him into the perfect little hyperviolent warrior whitepaw could never be, despite his best efforts. molded him into the kind of cat who would think mauling a kitten is okay.

and I get very sad.

Thistleclaw, even pre-SPH, has a knack for traumatizing children (whitepaw, tigerpaw, tiny). It makes sense to me he’d become a groomer because hurting young cats around him is one of like 3 of his personality traits! He has been an abuser from his first onscreen appearance [although I do sympathize with former thistleclaw fans a lot; the concept of a morally ambiguous asshole you like suddenly being retconned into a pedophile is horrifying. I just don’t enjoy people claiming he was never bad.] The ripple effects from his actions and the way he hurt other cats stretch all the way into TBC, and I once made an au where thistleclaw died right after siring whitestorm and So Many Things do not happen, it’s insane.

This fandom doesn’t rlly focus enough on the fact that tigerpaw wasn’t just thistleclaw’s lackey. he was his teenaged victim.

[iapislazuli]

my ultimate take on spottedleaf's heart is that I don't think hard topics are necessarily out of place in a children's story. unfortunately, many children will go through some bad shit in their lives. warrior cats already has really hard topics in it like imperialism, prejudice, murder, war, miscarriage, bullying, domestic abuse, and cheating, just to name a few. of course... it doesn't handle many of these well, because warrior cats is just... Like That, as we know. but in a hypothetical world where warrior cats approaches all of these tough topics with respect and care, i think that showing a creepy, predatory relationship like the one between spottedpaw and thistleclaw could actually be beneficial for young readers. spottedleaf's heart couldve been a story telling children "hey, if an adult acts like this to you, TELL SOMEBODY! IT'S NOT OKAY!" i think it couldve helped young readers in terrible, awful situations, to see a character going through what's happening to them, and to be told "this isn't okay. it doesn't matter who an adult is, if they are hurting you, it's not right, and you deserve to be safe. and if an adult ever acts like this, you should tell somebody you trust." i think that's like... a fine thing to tell kids, i don't consider that inappropriate. an alternate telling of spottedleaf's heart where bluefur, thrushpelt, sunstar, featherwhisker, adderfang, swiftbreeze, or any other adult in Spottedpaw's life sees what's happening to her and helps her, lets her know that it's not her fault? i think even if the topic is tough, that wouldve been a much better outcome for the story, and would be much more of a constructive message to give young readers who are going to relate to the protagonist who's their age. overall i just think the biggest issue is in execution and framing, making the overall message "spottedleaf was so foolish to fall in love with thistleclaw!!" instead of "spottedleaf was a victim of grooming, it's thistleclaw's fault for behaving inappropriately and hurting her because he's an adult"

[reirei19050]

Mandatory disclaimer: this rant isn't me attempting to say the authors are inherently malicious people or anything. Though, considering the Erins' reputation with poorly handling serious themes, I cannot entirely trust they are competent enough to have intended what's described below. If they (or just Vicky, since some have described it as being "her book"?) did, they failed.

Without further ado. Been thinking about the most contradicting statements made regarding SpottedLeaf's Heart, depending on how you interpret Vicky's words.

Firs up is a screen shot from Vicky Holmes' twitter, dated April 13th, 2017.

[ID: Much alarm at the Thistle Spotted age gap. Cats don't take any notice of that kind of thing, I'm afraid. I don't condone eating raw mice either. End ID]

I can't tell if she's referring to herself or the audience; probably both, actually. Regardless, I don't think her aim is to defend a fictional pedophile here; reading her next statement makes that a tad more apparent. I can only assume it is a poor attempt at explaining why no other cats took notice.

Here's a second screen shot, from Vicky Holmes' FaceBook page. It is not dated, but also came out at some point in 2017 as well, either sometime before or after Shattered Sky's release date (April 11th of 2017). So, it might have come out before the first screen shot presented, or might not have; I'm not sure.

[ID: Goodness me, I was not anticipating that strength of reaction to SpottedLeaf's Heart. I did warn you that I'd found the balance of the story hard to get right. I wanted to explore SpottedLeaf's character more thoroughly, and show how she ended up becoming a medicine cat, but I also wanted to hint at just how bad ThistleClaw really was.

I am intrigued by the twin themes of criticism, that I have never really proved why ThistleClaw deserved to go to the Dark Forest, and that I have included something as nasty as a very young apprentice being approached by a much older warrior. Well, this is why ThistleClaw was consigned to the Place of No Stars. For SpottedLeaf, becoming a medicine cat was also finding a place of sanctuary from cats with confusing, sinister motivations and ulterior motives.

Huge thank you purrs to everyone who has commented here and elsewhere. Your passion for these books leaves me breathless, as always. Do bear in mind that I only work for novellas now. I'm not a part of the editorial team that creates books within the main series, so I'm afraid I can't talk about Shattered Sky. Warriors has the best fans in the world, with the loudest voices and (sometimes) sharpest claws. Be safe, precious clan mates. Love, Vicky. End ID]

In universe, I honestly doubt that ThistleCunt preying on SpottedPaw romantically is why StarClan sent his ass to the Dark Forest. Or he just appeared there. Obviously, these anthropomorphic cats don't care for age gaps enough to condemn him, Vicky said so herself, but if this is the desired reason as to why he's there as opposed to all his other, also terrible actions long before this book had been brainstormed...Many more characters should be there, including multiple fan favorites. So, even if that's the reason Vicky wanted him to be there, narratively it holds zero weight, because no other characters are held accountable for doing the same exact things. You know, since they're the supposed "good guys" or on the "good side."

Which, is bad. Really bad, for a book series aimed at children, to not make it clear enough how wrong not only his actions are, but any other cats who do the exact same thing. Making the readers feel disgusted by him (and him alone) is not enough. Them being human minded but cats does not take away from the severity. When an author features topics as serious as abuse, pedophilia, etc. in their writing targeted at an audience so young, they need to do it with much care and caution or not at all. You cannot have a villain do something, present it as bad, then turn around and have heroes do the same thing and be justified or brushed off. Or in Warriors case, have the good guys do all the nasty things first, then present a villain who does the exact same shit. It sends the wrong message.

Remember: fictional characters are not capable of having their own thoughts and feelings. They are narrative tools whose decisions are dictated by their creator(s). The "beliefs" held by these kitty cats do not matter, therefore don't work as a defense.

[actually-hated-blorbo-tournament]

Tbh I don’t think the idea of Spottedleaf's Heart/thistleclaw being a groomer is that bad.

Warrior cats is a children’s book series at the end of the day and teaching kids about groomers is sadly necessary. A lot of children are going to understand a topic as serious as pedophilla if you use a story that they are already invested in to explain it. “Yeah this evil cat touches kids” sounds very weird and gross to an adult audience but (if it was done correctly) it could have been a good psa and taught a bunch of kids warning signs for predators.

A lot of WC’s fans think that it would be better if the book never got made but imo it would have been much better if the book was written well instead of just not existing.

[j0kb0x]

Human warrior cat AUs never seem to agree that Thistleclaw would be a minecraft youtuber. We all know he would be. Bro canonically groomed a minor in the book series.

[wc-confessions]

Spotted leaf's heart could've been a good lesson about recognising the dangers of grooming and teaching the audience that if an adult is interested in a kid, it's a huge red flag no matter how "nice" they come off as. But instead all of that is just... Brushed off and not even the in-story reason why Thistle's a villain... Its so upsetting.

ㅤ

[shreksstepfather]

(This is asked on my warriors design account, but I don’t really answer asks there. So @d1esel here’s your answer!)

Is there any other answer to this question? Spottedleaf’s Heart is icky and Vicky defended it.

[cheecats]

Ive got an opinion to be rated!

Spottedleaf’s Heart could have been a genuinely good book and helped teach kids some warning signs of what predatory relationships look like, if the topic had been handled with the care it deserves

give me your warriors opinions for rating [x]

strongly agree | agree | neutral | disagree | strongly disagree

I think so! Unfortunately I genuinely do not think the Erins are capable of crafting such a narrative.

Mfw you could've made a strong cautionary tale but instead you made the adult characters communicate important messages like dogshit with the child protag and, AT BEST, just made an uncomfortable experience for readers whilst fucking up your past villain who had merit as one of the few morally gray villains in the series. At worst? You gave the wrong messages to your child readers in their potential first impression of grooming in a narrative. Also, you know what else is shit? Putting an (even more) insidious angle on said child protag in her main series appearance as an adult ghost hanging around the protag who had feelings for her when he was a child. Sorry Spottedleaf they did you so dirty bbruh 💀

[bonefall]

What irritates me so much about the Leafpool and the three situation is: it's Starclan's fault. It never had to happen in cannon. Squirrelflight isn't barren. If the Erin's wanted drama, they could have made the three Ashfur's, and had Squirrel pretend they're Bramble's. I'm glad in BB you made her barren, but it still just irritates me. Leafpool got done so dirty. If I was in her paws, and after Bramble had me forcibly step down, I'd ask someone to honor sire (maybe from a different clan?) kits for me then look Bramble straight in the eye as I started showing.

It's one in a long list of "retcons that happened to reduce the agency of characters because the warrior fandom will otherwise find any reason to fucking hate women." I don't believe that Po3 was written with the revelation of Leafpool's Wish in mind.

(leafpool's wish is where the "barren/StarClan telling Squilf to take the kids" Thing comes from)

In fact, most books that come out seem to completely forget the detail. Squirrelflight's Hope doesn't mention it. Bramblestar's Storm totally omitted it. Squirrelflight is never pissed that StarClan literally lied to her.

So it makes it really feel like a less egregious version of Spottedleaf's Heart; a poorly thought-out addition specifically aimed at the fandom misogynists who write screeds about how Brambleclaw/Thistleclaw Were Good Actually and their shitty behavior was just a Bad Woman Who Wronged The Poor Babies.

AND to be clear what I'm getting at with this comparison is that both these books are awful, because they're cowardly. They don't stick to their guns and say, "BLUESTAR AND SQUIRRELFLIGHT WERE RIGHT TO MISTRUST THESE MEN BASED ON THE REASONS THEY HAD." They badly retcon in EXTRA reasons for them to come to the conclusions they did.

They concede to the fandom misogynist. Their existence agrees that the original reasons they had were weak, so the writers shoveled in extra horseshit to make them "more correct" to do what they did.

"Don't worry guys, it's not that Squirrelflight took her sister's children to protect everyone involved, and that she's right to mistrust her mate who trained in HELL and never revealed any of his own secrets until his shitty half-brother killed her dad once. Nope! God lied to her and told her to. Told her she was barren, even. Now Squilf can remain morally pure while Brambleclaw abuses the shit out of her. Soblem Prolved."

So like... I don't even think that they should have been Ashfur's. This worked perfectly fine as it was in Po3. Just commit, assholes. Bramblestar's an untrustworthy piece of shit. Condemn him for turning on his children, confirming every terrible suspicion Squirrelflight had. Point out that the Three get treated differently when the secret comes out. Ask what, exactly, Leafpool could have done differently and have people have different opinions on this.

but like. keep squirrelflight being barren :/ Please let women just be unable to have kids sometimes. Please.

[everybody-loves-purdy]

One of the many things that bothers me about Thistleclaw grooming Spottedpaw is that one of the first things he does is question her loyalty to ThunderClan and her commitment to being a warrior. She confronts him about allowing Tigerpaw to attack Tiny in such a brutal fashion and he begins asking her a series of strawmanning questions. “Is there something wrong with wanting to be the best, the strongest, the most fearless in your Clan? Do you think we should all be medicine cats, mincing around with herbs and feathers and avoiding so much as a nip from a mouse?” When Spottedpaw is unable to answer these questions (because they’re not asked with the intention of gaining a real answer), he then goes on to say that he’s disappointed with what he perceives to be her lack of ambition.

When Spottedpaw distances herself immediately after this argument, Thistleclaw follows her and begins to use self-deprecation to regain Spottedpaw’s trust by saying things like “I’m a squirrel-brained fool who doesn’t deserve your company” and “I don’t blame you for hating me”. He even goes as far as to cower in front of her like a kit being scolded by it’s mother. Despite being in a situation where an apology from Spottedpaw’s end isn’t warranted, she still apologizes to Thistleclaw.

This is what kickstarts a novella full of instances where Spottedpaw second-guesses herself. It’s a shame that this is what the Erins decided was the criteria for Thistleclaw to be considered a cat worthy of going to the Dark Forest and not him goading his apprentice into almost killing a kit or his crazed bloodlust.

It genuinely could have been a fantastic teaching moment if Thistleclaw had actually been called out in the novella as a predator and an adult in this situation had told Spottedpaw how completely wrong this all is, rather than the story trying to steer the reader to believe the only reason he was bad for Spottedpaw was because he trained in hell.

[cryptidclaw]

Are you keeping what Thistle did to Spotted? I feel like you should, but make the message a bit more clear. I feel like in some way Spotted should get revenge on him (killing him, etc)

I have decided that I am, but I will be changing it so Spotted actually tells someone and there are actual consequences to Thistle's actions (those consequences are assassination)

I'm thinkin Spotted doesn't kill Thistle, but she plays a part in his death, and I love the idea of him begging her for help and her just turning around and walking away, leaving him with Whitestorm and idk who else to get murked.

I feel like maybe Blue, White and probably at least one of Spotted's siblings, probably Redtail, were a part of the actual killing, bec they are NOT letting that shit slide.

Snowstorm also gets to be the cat to banish Thistle to the dark forest bec she deserves it.

Also yes, Im not gonna rewrite the whole book, but if I did, the fact that Thistle was grooming a child and that is BAD would have been made FAR more blatant!!!! I cant BELIEVE the Erins were even allowed to publish Spottedleaf's Heart to a CHILD audience, with how poorly they handled this shit.

[thatonefurryartist]