#we feel you martha

[thirdeyeblue]

“Nine would have treated Martha better than Ten did”

I need to talk about this argument that never seems to stop circulating.

Note: Not a venomous/anti post. There’s more than enough of that across fandom spaces as is, and this is supposed to be a place for ✨sweet, blissful escapism✨

When making this argument, people seem to envision a scenario in which Nine never met Rose.

While I can appreciate a good hypothetical, recognizing Rose's significance to the Doctor (Nine and Ten) is essential to understanding why things with Martha played out the way they did in the first place.

In the third series, the Doctor is grieving. This grief is deliberately threaded into nearly every script, whether spoken aloud or not (and these are just a few examples):

He's burning in Rose’s wake the entire time Martha travels with him, which is why it’s so frequently called upon: It’s 100% deliberate in framing his grief. He grieved as Nine too, of course— having been fresh on the heels of the Time War — but then he met Rose, which changed everything.

Back then, he was still a rude, traumatized pain in the ass, but we watch Rose soften more of those jagged edges with every episode as they grow closer; as he lets his guard down and forms a deep connection with her.

He falls in love (against his better judgment) and it's game over.

And yes: provided S1E1 had been titled 'Martha', one can realistically assume things might have unfolded similarly to how they did with Rose. However, it wouldn’t have been that way just because the Doctor was Nine and “Nine was different” — it would be because he wasn’t already in love with someone else. The same can't be said for the start of S3.

Think of it like this: if Rose AND Martha had been in that cellar — if Nine had taken both of them along with him in S1 — we’d eventually be looking at the most melodramatic love triangle ever, what with him living in close quarters with two brilliant, gorgeous, compassionate young women... But Doctor Who is plenty “soap opera” as is with just one woman in the TARDIS.

(I certainly wouldn’t object to reading that fic, though)

Now, regarding the unrequited elephant in the room…

His inability to be romantic with Martha isn’t because he thinks her lesser, nor is it for lack of compatibility. It isn't because Rose is any better than her. It certainly isn’t just because he’s Ten.

It’s really only for one reason, which can't be denied — and now I’m a broken record:

He is still in love with Rose.

(cut from a tenrosedaily gif)

Nine is Ten, and Ten is only such a mess in S3 because he’s just lost the love of his life. Martha merely got caught in the crosshairs of a volatile Time Lord in mourning, and yes — it sucks. Absolutely.

But it also feels dismissive to chalk Ten and Martha’s relationship up to little more than some sort of mindless dance of pining, jealousy, and toxicity.

Ten trusted Martha with his life over and over again — and hers, with him. He constantly praised her brilliance, happily carting her around time and space with no intention of letting her go. In the BBC’s extended universe of novels/comics/cartoons/etc, there’s so much depth to their relationship: love and trust and trauma and sacrifice. They had their own special bond as mates, their own complexities — so it’s a bummer that it's forever overshadowed by the other things.

I’m not denying that there was a lot of stuff that sucked/was for sure toxic about Ten's S3 behavior, but so many of the things I've seen him catching flak for can be directly attributed to being A Clueless Fucking Alien Idiot (not a trait that’s unique to Ten) — as well as his flat-out obliviousness to Martha’s feelings.

So yes, I agree: if Rose never existed, he would have treated Martha differently as Nine. He also would have treated her differently as Ten. Certainly.

But Rose did exist, and when discussing canon, it matters.

“He tells me that he absolutely, 100% loves Rose... He tells me how my daughter; my wonderful, beautiful, clever little girl saved him from himself before… And he says that’s all because of me! I made her into the Rose Tyler that saved him.”

-Jackie Tyler, Flight Into Hull!

Martha got the short end of the stick in S3. She came round at the wrong place and time, but that doesn't mean it was all bad. It doesn't mean the Doctor didn’t adore her. It certainly doesn't mean the time they spent together was wasted or worthless. They were brilliant!

Sure, he could be a twat, but let it be known that he was a twat with Rose as well, both as Nine and Ten. I’m sure Tentoo can be plenty infuriating, too. So while I'll defend Ten (and Tentoo) into the ground forever and ever and ever, I'll concede that he's fucked up.

The Doctor is a certified Pain In The Ass. It’s one of the things I love so much about this character — dynamics.

But never forget that Martha was goddamn tough as nails and overcame every bit of it. She moved on with her life, and the Doctor moved on with his. One can only pray that, when they inevitably drag her back onto the show (which feels inevitable if I'm honest), we see at once that she's been living her best life for all these years.

[nat-20s]

Overall I do think things would've gone significantly better for Martha if Donna had accepted the first offer she got from The Doctor and been in season 3. Donna would absolutely be the Number One member of the Martha defense club and would've constantly been like "SHE'S SO FUCKING COOL AND BRILLIANT AND SMART AND BEAUTIFUL AND IF YOU DON'T CHEER AND CLAP FOR HER I'M BLOWING UP THIS BUILDING" like Donna IS her living breathing hypeman. Also I think Donna would've killed the master so that whole year that wasn't? Never happened.

That being said. Rip to Martha Jones because I think she would've had a disaster bisexual moment where on either side of her is an incredibly attractive person that is ruthlessly teasing her for her crush on the other. Neither of them have figured out she has a crush on them. She is not subtle about it.

[muninnhuginn]

Oh wow Henderson/Martha as bad end Twiyor. Henderson so focused on his ideals, on conquering ignorance, that he doesn't look at what's in front of him. "Ignorance is a sin", "they wouldn't do this if they were educated correctly". Those ideas taking precedence over any kind of personal life for both Twilight and Henderson. And so Henderson and Martha miss their chance because Henderson is so caught up in his own cause and Martha doesn't recognise her own feelings for what they are. Just as how Twilight is so focused on his mission that he deliberately tries to clamp down on his own connections with others and sees them as a weakness. As he too could miss his chance and leave one day without warning.

It's not technically the end of either of their stories. But the parallels at present read as very deliberate.

[callixton]

i think the thing to understand abt martha jones is that even after she leaves she is five seconds away from dropping everything and traveling with the doctor at any given time. bc that itch to blow everything up and damn her personal duty to hell in search of a higher call never leaves her. but martha is smart. and rational. and has spent a long fucking time needing to keep herself safe. (bc he comes when she calls but never before.) and so she has gotten very good at keeping herself on the right side of those five seconds. but i do think if ten was a different person (if he could acknowledge how much he needed her instead of just how much he liked her) (if he didn’t feel this righteous martyrdom when it comes to being left alone) (if he cared enough about her to beg. if he cared enough about himself.) i think that her answer no would come crumbling down pretty quickly is all.

[mwagneto]

a thing about rtd's era that i really really love seeing again is how he will usually wrap up the plot 10 or even 20 minutes before the episode ends and then the rest of that time is just dedicated to the characters talking to each other and dealing with their emotions and situations. like instead of a last minute win and a two minute goodbye they always get these massive spans of time to really get into everything emotionally and it always makes the episodes hit even harder

[quietwingsinthesky]

i really do think the desire to paint ten as unambiguously The Worst™️ when it comes to his relationship with martha is out of this desire to uncomplicate their relationship. to decouple them as friends and people who profoundly impacted each other’s lives. it’s just an easier narrative to swallow: that ten was Awful to her and then martha kicked him to the curb when she realized she was too good for him. easier, maybe, then dealing with the troubles of unrequited affection don’t have to be anyone’s fault, or that ten shut martha out in a lot of ways but let her in in others that he wouldn’t let any other companion near, or that they were still friends, they still wanted to see each other and be around each other, even though it was messy and sometimes hurt. you know?

[crookedfivefingers]

“Impossibly thick, I was.”

Doctor Who . Titan Comics

The Thirteenth Doctor | Read: 201/204

[pxme-granate]

[falderaletcetera]

the thing about post-rose ten is he IS casually cruel. he tells donna to her face that she's not clever, not special, not important - and gets slapped for it, which to my mind is kinda the reason the doctor-donna relationship works. he tells martha's coworker not to waste his time, to stay behind, she'll only hold them up. leaves her crying. and like, devoting his energy to the problem at hand (the hospital is on the moon, there's an alien situation going on, everyone here and possibly everyone on earth is at risk) is the practical move at the time. but there's an obvious casual cruelty to it that he wouldn't have stooped to before.

and I'm just reminded of the way donna forgot all her loudness and bluff and immediately snapped to empathy when there were people hurt. you're a doctor, you can help. I remember her watching in horror as the doctor presided over the execution of children and the destruction of a species - and telling him he can stop now. I remember her saying that yeah, her ex-fiance, the man who poisoned her and used her and secretly looked down on her all this time, he didn't deserve to die like he did, which is a pretty big admission given the freshness of that betrayal. she has a good heart. and I can see why she would be good for this new, cruel, forgotten-his-kindness-in-all-his-pain doctor.

and I'm just so, so sorry that martha had to know this version of him in the meantime.

[tangerinelabyrinth]

"The Doctor didn't treat Martha badly at all."

Right, What's all this then.

After kissing to her (Which meant nothing) shows up to where she is and asks her if she wants to take a trip in the Tardis only to yell at her that's she's not replacing Rose shortly after she agrees.

Dismissive about her concerns about her race and traveling to the past.

Weirdly casual about sharing a bed then talks about Rose and how she would know what to say to him and do in this situation.

Takes her to the same places he took Rose. (This one's complicated too me but it obviously hurt her feelings, so we are putting it in here)

 When Martha was just happy to see him because they had been separated and he was like, "You can kiss me later" or something along those lines. (But absolutely zero mixed signals there.)

Says he going to leave and comes back and let's not mention Picks up her underwear in her apartment (like why)

TAKES HER BACK TO 1913 AND HAS HER TAKE CARE OF HIM WHILE HES HUMAN AND FALLS IN LOVE WITH A WOMAN WHO IS RACIST TO HER!!! THEN INVITES THE SAME WOMAN TO TRAVEL WITH THEM!!!! And all she gets is a thanks.

Gets them stuck in 1969 and has her work in a shop to support him.

Finished explaining the perception filter and then ran back to add "It's like when you fancy someone, and they don't even know you exist."

Hinted at that he gets her the job at UNIT only to be upset when she works at UNIT. (This reasonably could be because she ended up more like a solider than he wanted but still)

It goes without saying that while all of this is happening, Martha continues to hustle through every episode she is in and saves not only The Doctor but the entire world! The Doctor is 100 percent fine with not reciprocating her feelings and is perfectly fine to still not be over Rose. That isn't the issue here; the problem is that he just treats Martha like she's nothing and it's a burden to travel with her (even though he asked her to travel with him and had multiple opportunities to leave if he wanted) after she constantly proves herself and saves him multiple times. Its infuriating to me and it makes me more upset when people don’t see how much differently she is treated than Rose and Donna and paint Martha as this aggressor who also plays a role and is responsible for how he treated her when that's not the case at all. I understand that a large part of Martha's story was that The Doctor didn't see her but why? And why is this used almost as an excuse for his behavior? 

I could more in depth, but I don't think I have the right words to properly articulate and describe all my feelings, but this is what I got.

[rearranging-deck-chairs]

obligatory rock murder mention

[potionwine]

Thinking about Margrace as Joshua's name post-Phoenix Gate.

Mar-grace.

In FFXVI the Undying choose their own names (Cyril explains this in-game), and many of them have names drawn from Final Fantasy XII, including their leader 'Margrace' himself, from Al-Cid Margrace. The page for Al-Cid notes that Margrace is likely an alternate form of the title 'margrave', an old title for military commanders on the border.

That aside. This is the name chosen (by the boy himself?) for the boy who should have rightfully been known henceforth as 'Your Grace', 'His Grace'.

Grace (style of address), from the Oxford English Dictionary:

With a possessive adjective: a title of respect, esp. for a person of royal or noble rank. Frequently (in 'your Grace') as a form of address. Now archaic or historical. Formerly (in England until the reign of Henry VIII and in Scotland until 1707) used for a monarch or prince; now replaced by Majesty or Highness. Even so, "Majesty" for the sovereign of England was not used exclusively; it arbitrarily alternated with both "Highness" and "Grace", even in official documents, until "Majesty" finally became the official style to the exclusion of others (source).

Grace (other meanings):

1. Divine favour, benevolence, or providence bringing about worldly benefit or advantage. 2. A person's lot, destiny, or fate; luck, fortune. 3. The quality of being pleasing; attractiveness, charm; esp. (in later use) refined elegance of manner, expression, form, or movement, esp. regarded as natural or effortless; gracefulness.

Whatever the etymology of margrave, the name Margrace in-game is probably meant to call to mind the meaning of 'mar' as in damaged, spoiled, ruined. All the grace that ever belonged to his family, his home, his birthright—marred, of course.

Mar+Grace, the last heir of the oldest unbroken ruling dynasty in the Twins at the time of the opening events of the game**.

The living ghost, carrying the desecrated corpse of his legacy in his new name. Introducing himself by his humiliation: "Hello, I am Margrace", "Hello, I am the ruined dignity of my house." "Call me Margrace", "Call me the wreckage of one fallen from divine favour." "My name is Margrace", "My name is blemished fortunes and diminished nobility".

It's appropriately brutal and dramatic for such a character, especially since the game is frustratingly silent on how Joshua personally feels about the loss of his duchy which is a rant for next time.

**Footnotes:

In the Year 860 (Prologue year/Phoenix Gate), Rosaria is about 260 years old (est. Y600). Older, if you count from the time of the Rose Alliance (est. Y550). The Rosfields have been on the Rosarian throne since the inception of the duchy in Y600, and prior to that House Rosfield was already known to be the chief of/the preeminent house of the Seven High Houses that united to found the duchy. House Rosfield has held ruling power for 260-310 years at a minimum.

For reference, England's longest-reigning dynasty was the Plantagenets, who held on for 300+ years. Rosfields aren't doing half bad!

Veldemarke would have been older had it not been overthrown by Barnabas; therefore Waloed is the youngest nation state at the time of the prologue (only 17 years old). Also we do not know much about the governance of Veldemarke, although as a 'kingdom' it was likely some type of monarchy.

Sanbreque was formed 100 years after Rosaria, and at any rate is not actually a hereditary monarchy. The Holy Emperor is voted into office by his fellow Cardinals, likely the five who form the Council of Elders. We are also explicitly told that Sylvestre 'won his throne' in 865; there is no indication either way that his predecessor emperor was a Lesage. The wording suggests the throne is not Sylvestre's by lineage or birthright. How this is supposed to relate to the concept of Sanbreque having a 'crown prince' (Dion) is unclear and contradictory, since an emperor by election should probably not have the authority to unilaterally decide on the succession of the throne, and his issue—legitimate or no—should not automatically be in the line of succession.

Dhalmekia is a republic with elected officials.

The Iron Kingdom apparently has a royal family, but nothing else is known apart from it being impotent and sidelined by their state religion.

The Northern Tribes likely do have hereditary rule, and Jill is referred to as a princess, but once again little is known.

Ergo—and I am ceaseless in this propaganda—Clive and Joshua are really, properly posh! Absolutely baffling that Anabella would allow anyone to put down the pedigree of her sons when they are so blue-blooded precisely because she is! For someone with such entrenched ideas of blood purity she should not stand for it, no matter how she feels about her eldest.

[aletterinthenameofsanity]

lockwood/george/lucy is just ten/jack/martha in another skin. try to convince me otherwise

[bittersweetblasphemy]

had a fucking bizarre dream last night that led to me fucking the Grinch. woke up. thought to myself, "wow that was a fucking bizarre dream." went back to sleep. immediately had a second, completely different dream that ended with me also fucking the Grinch. even had a moment just as we were going to bone like "wow just like my dream."

these fever dreams are getting... something.

[variousqueerthings]

also interesting because I just watched a video doing a rundown on the history of queerness in doctor who, which naturally had a lot dedicated to aro and/or ace reads of the doctor, which at one point discussed that ofc reading the alien character specifically as such can be alienating (not... that as an aroace person my own reads would be attempting to alienate... myself... although also here insert other discussion about how the aliens often are just the blank slate upon which non-normative behaviours are placed, so it makes sense to see the neurodivergent/disabled/queer/otherwise othered body reflected from them, while also understanding that this means the world views you as inherently alien, while also being like "sure, yeah, I always have done," while also knowing that's dehumanisation, while also...)

but, when it's consciously done, when does this alien being (whatever narrative we're looking at) resonate through the lens of xyz because we're interested in how social structures built Not on today's earth human constructs could end up in wildly interesting different spaces in which what is non-normative to us is presented as normative to them (thus making an argument of stop being such freaks against trans kids, for example), and also when do we read those characters as incongruent with their own societies (I think also here of star trek's the outcast and rejoined, which blend queerness as we recognise it in our societies with characters who break alien normative structures as expressions of an alien queerness, and then there's ofc left hand of darkness in which gender-and-sexuality is at the centre of the political narrative and it's queer on multiple in-universe and out-of-universe levels)

for example, the doctor isn't really an outsider timelord if we look at them through the lens of genderbending regeneration -- that's normalised in that society in canon, and the interesting thing there is usually how that interacts with human social constructs and politics of gender and as a scifi way of deconstructing and dissembling real life consturcts... but they are clearly an outsider in terms of many other things they do, for example seeming neurodivergent if looked at through a human lens and a timelord lens

so where do aromantic and asexual reads fit in there?

well to start with aro!doctor -- I am into the science-fiction ability to create societies with completely different expressions of "connection" that eschew simple human monogamous ideas and histories, but if we were to take that second lens as well of "what if the doctor is aromantic as an identity and not simply as an alien," the doctor continuously (with the exception of romana and the master) creates deep connections with beings that don't have a particularly long lifespan/aren't timelords, especially considering they're near-immortal. and with romana and the master there seems to be a different set of rules happening there than anything one might describe as uncomplicatedly romantic, bitter exes vibe of the doctor/the master acknowledged

the doctor interests me from the lens of "aromantic as non-normative/queer from the pov from both our and timelord society" because they seem to continuously struggle with people not accepting the connections that they're offering them. the doctor's way of having a relationship is often not "enough", isn't easy to describe/vague, and people get jealous or angry or feel betrayed for reasons that isn't the doctor's fault, because there simply seems to be a lack of language to properly describe it in easy digestible terms

that is... a very aromantic experience

and then sometimes the doctor will just have little non-romantic connections that work, like donna -- and, despite not being my favourite seasons, the bits where the doctor simply lives with/drops in on the ponds is very sweet. and the tardis of course. am a "doctor-and-the-tardis are a matching pair and one without the other is wrong, but it's not romantic" person at heart, beyond anything else

(I am interested in how this will play once my rewatch gets me back to 13 and I can watch until the end, because I know yaz confesses that she's in love with the doctor near the end, and the doctor has an interesting reaction from what I understand)

(I guess at this point asexuality is another post)

but yeah. I think I'm not saying anything new with regards to the writing of aliens (and android and otherwise non-human characters), in that obviously one would like to imagine some interest in exploring these forms of non-normativity outside of "well that's an alien" (she's an alien and he's gay) but also there's reasons we're all so into aliens

genderbending genderfluid regenerating aliens is all well and good, but it only becomes really interesting in this case when we see trans/non-binary/genderfluid/genderbending humans (as is coming up soon! and I hope we see many more actors of the trans and gender non-conforming persuasion on this show!) similarly -- while I do think we have had more than a taste (donna my heart and soul honestly) of that non-alloromantic queerplatonic vibes doctor-companion dynamic -- I'd be fascinated in what a consciously aro (and maybe ace also) companion opposite the doctor would be like, how that would restructure their relationship with the doctor, compared to others who had expectations that the doctor couldn't ever hope to fulfill, like rose, martha (although they did let down martha in many ways that had nothing to do with romance), amy, possibly yaz, (here the confession that I never did get much of what was going on with clara but maybe this watch will clarify for me), possibly sarah-jane, possibly river song although she seems to have just kind of gone with it I guess, possibly romana... heck, possibly the master (I guess possibly that american woman from the movie, I forget her name... I cannot remember rn if other companions ever expressed an interest like that in them, but if so, then them too)

also I just want to rub moffat's face in it if I'm being honest. writing snide commentary about what was described as "asexual" doctor pre-nu!who, in a way that very much encompassed aroness (because romance-and-sex has so often been and still is put under one header), and totally misunderstanding why fans were into it or why it's interesting, and then being obsessed ever since with his weird little crusade of making doctor who "sexier" and alloromantic and imo utterly failing, despite it all

[yesokayiknow]

rewatching the wedding of river song just for those five minutes of all three ponds sitting down at home and talking ;-;