#where saying things like Israel should not exist or Palestine should not exist

[nerd-at-sea5]

are u pro palestine... we have the same interests but i dnt want to follow u if ur weird

honestly this blog is for silly little thoughts about lesbians and such and the occasional personal story or opinion but it’s about time i got one of these. so buckle up long post ahead and it’s not gonna be a cut and paste yes/no answer bc yeah. just read the thing

first of all: im jewish. raised jewish and will forever be jewish. i'm proud of it. i'm not super religious and don't really believe in god but that doesn't mean i'm any less jewish.

second: i believe in a 2 state solution. i don't like terrorists. i think hamas needs to be held accountable for the murders and horrors they've committed, because frankly i think they're a bunch of monsters and terrible people. i don't agree with a lot of the stuff that netanyahu does either because that stuff is also not ok. but overall: fuck hamas.

that being said, i believe that israel has the right to exist. i believe that the jews deserve a homeland where we can be safe. i believe that a 2 state solution is the safest and smartest option. but i will also say that as the correct and historically accurate definition of zionism is to believe in the movement and protection of the jewish state - i am a zionist and i am not going to shy away from what i believe in.

i am aware that people will not like this about me, and i am aware they will try to tell me things about myself that are not true. so i am going to set the record straight and go back to posting about my silly little tv shows.

israel has a right to exist and to defend itsself

hamas are terrorists and should not be in power

i am in favor of a 2 state solution

the people of gaza don't deserve to live in horrible conditions because of the terrorists in power

jews and israeli's don't deserve the hate and abuse that they're experiencing because of people who don't know how to fact check

the hostages should be home. this is non-negotiable, they should be home.

and again - im aware that this isn't the yes/no answer you want, but i can't give that to you because its much more complicated than that.

lastly, if you want to unfollow me for any of these things please go ahead, i don't care. i implore you to fact check yourself before sending hate and threats to people online or in real life (or assaulting/hurting people, seriously just don’t do that.)

if you pick and choose who to engage with online due to political opinions that's up to you, but a difference in opinions isnt 'weird' its just human.

[hmsharmony]

את ישראלית?

For reasons my parents cannot agree on, they never sent me to Hebrew school, so I do not speak Hebrew. I believe you’ve asked if I’m Israeli. I am not. I am Ashkenazi Jewish and I live in the United States. My pop pop came from Poland after surviving the Holocaust, and my nana’s father also came from Poland in the early 1900s. Everything I’m saying is from the perspective of a Jewish woman in the diaspora.

[determinate-negation]

what are your thoughts about hamas / or do you have marxist oriented or just good not western media biased resources for understanding them?

theyre an islamist anti colonial organization, theyre also a political party with a military wing (al qassam brigades) which is what people usually are referring to when they talk about ~hamas~. they won in elections and have a degree of popular support and, because they are the ruling political party, theyre in charge of civil institutions in gaza, like schools and hospitals etc. when reporters describe things like the gaza health ministry as “hamas run” when they would never say this about another political party, they are purposefully trying to delegitimize it and obscuring the fact that they are the government that won in elections, not a rogue terrorist cell. al qassam brigades was not the only part of the resistance that took part in the attack on october 7, there are a bunch of other factions like the islamist PIJ, marxist PFLP and DFLP, and some others. im not the most knowledgable on like politics within gaza and exactly how people feel about hamas but theyre absolutely not a terrorist group, i think theyre much closer to other anti colonial militant organizations like the viet cong and algerian national liberation front. theyre also fighting an asymmetrical war using guerrilla strategies like the viet cong and nlf, and western media misrepresents this with all the shit about “hiding weapons by civilians” or whatever. i would recommend looking into the history of guerilla warfare and anti colonial struggle to understand why im criticizing media representations of it. they also make a lot of their rockets from scraps of israeli bombs! i think people should make a better distinction that hamas is a political party with a military wing (al qassam brigades) because then its more obvious that bombing civilian infrastructure thats allegedly “hamas run” is a war crime. also i heard in their statements that most of their militants are orphans whos parents were killed by israel and i think that should be noted. i think its also incorrect to say they have an issue with jews in general and are rabidly antisemitic as if their main aim is to kill jews, the way most media portrays them. they very specifically exist because of the continued occupation of palestine and without that i do not think they would give a shit about jews. they attack settler because theyre settlers, not because theyre jews. idk this article was pretty good and has a link to their 2017 charter where they specifically say their struggle is against zionism not jews

heres their charter thats linked in the article but ngl i just recommend reading their statements and material in general. not saying take every single thing at face value but theyre a political party with issues like any other, not evil sadistic terrorists. and why let mainstream media set the terms of your understanding of them

[unrelaxing]

From a country where voting is not a choice, but a duty, it's interesting seeing American discourse every four years on whether or not voting matters. This year there's an added layer, because Joe Biden has been supporting Israel's genocide against Palestine. Now there's a pervading sentiment - both in and out of the US - that voting for Joe Biden supports Palestinian genocide, and it's an American's moral duty to withhold their vote in support of Palestine.

I guess the question I ask is: how is withholding your vote effective activism?

If you don't vote, and Trump wins, he says he will deport pro-Palestine demonstrators. He says he supports Israel's right to defend itself. If you vote independent, and Trump wins the same thing happens.

If Biden wins, he will continue his support of Israel.

So: Is voting really the battleground for the Palestinian genocide, when either outcome leads down the same road?

And what other battles are being fought in this presidential race?

Gun laws - Biden passed "the most significant gun safety legislation in more than two decades", the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act. It includes enhanced background checks for gun purchasers, and prohibits individuals convicted of domestic violence towards a romantic partner from purchasing a gun (wherein the past a 'boyfriend loophole' had existed, wherein the law only applied if an individual was convicted of domestic violence against a spouse or cohabitant). Trump has promised to overturn Biden's new laws.

Healthcare - Uninsured Americans are at an all-time low under Biden's administration, with only 7.6% of Americans being uninsured in the second quarter of 2023. The number of people who signed up to Obamacare in 2024 is at 21.3 million - and Trump plans to repeal it.

Climate change - Biden's Inflation Reduction Act invests 300 billion dollars towards clean energy. Electricity generation from renewable energy sources — including wind, solar and hydropower — surpassed coal-fired generation in the electric power sector for the first time in 2022, making it the second-biggest source behind natural gas generation. At a recent dinner with oil executives and lobbyists, the Republican promised to eliminate Mr Biden's new climate rules and environmental regulations if they donated $1bn to his campaign.

Much has been said about Trump's second term beyond the above three points. @batboyblog posted a very clear and concise graphic on Trump's plans for his second term.

The BBC has also posted about Trump's plans for his second term, which I'll screenshot:

Trump is now a felon, but I was really shocked to learn about how little impact this has on his ability to run as president. His supporters are likely to stay by his side, because they believe in these policies.

Biden does not have the same luxury. I don't think he should have the same luxury. Still, I feel like it's important to point out that Trump and Biden's opinions on Israel and Palestine align, but there are a plethora of other issues they do not align on. As a voter, as an activist, when given two political parties, why would you choose based on the similarities as opposed to the differences?

Ways to help Gaza.

Vetted gofundmes.

Other links to help Palestine.

[honesty-my-policy]

i'm so infuriated

I'm not Jewish and I'm so infuriated at the world.

I can't imagine how it must feel to be Jewish. Especially as this entire ordeal has made me dive more into educating myself about Jewish history and how the world truly has always blamed everything on the Jews.

How is everything their fault?

Even the crucifixion of Christ has been blamed on the Jews when it was a Roman tradition?

Martin Luther who is known as one of the original reformers in Christianity's history wrote a book called "On the Jews and Their Lies". In which he advocated for burning down synagogues, Jewish homes and if that didn't work, Jewish people!

Apparently, somehow, Jews caused the Black Death despite the fact that the most predominant modern theory is that due to climate change in Asia, rodents began to flee the dried out grasslands to more populated areas which ended up spreading the infected fleas they carried, thus spreading the disease. The fleas infected not just rats but ground rodents in general, so once the rats migrated the fleas could jump to any ground rodent and the infection spread.

Some of the craziest modern stuff though has come mostly from the Middle East (i wonder why)...

Apparently, Israel has remote control sharks that can attack Egyptian civilians and tourists, at least that's what a Governor of Egypt things. source

According to a fundamentalist group of Muslims called the Wahhabis, the Jews have a secret ally they've been conspiring with... the Gharqad tree. A tree, they call it the Jew tree. source Which is identified as either nitre bushes or Lycium which is part of the nightshade family, it's such a thing that the TREE WIKI PAGE TALKS MORE ABOUT THAT THAN THE TREE ITSELF source

Palestine once said that Israel was breeding super rats that could grow twice the size of a normal rat - just to chase Arabs out of Jerusalem, note this was in like 2008, where are these super rats NOW? source

The Nation of Islam (an organization) accused Jews of tricking people into thinking slavery exists??????? Sorry, "still" exists. This was originally in 1996, the gall this motherfucker had in 1996 to say "Where is the proof?" - oh, his name is Louis Farrakhan btw and there is an entire section dedicated to him on the anti-slavery website iabolish.org - his page

Also, Pokémon is a Zionist conspiracy plot to overthrow Saddam Hussein, at least, in 2001 that was what some Iraqi security personal reported. source

listen... I won't lie. I love a good conspiracy theory because to be honest, the amount I trust my government or anyone in authority is so small that just about anything could come out as true and I'd be so un-phased.

but blaming the Jews for everything when they make up an estimated 0.2% of the population versus say the 23% that is Muslim? Which there are approximately 50 Muslim-Majority countries in the world, though depending on sources the exact number differs.

If anything Christianity (32%) and the unaffiliated (16.3%) should be eyed at. Also, how come no one ever gives the folk religion people a hard time? Not that anyone deserves to be given a hard time as long as they aren't hurting anyone, it just boggles my mind to be honest.

sources for numbers cited came from this website: https://worldpopulationreview.com/

anyway, woke up this morning and just wanted to say this cause I'm mad and I want to show my support but also call out stupid people. I'm here to fight for Israel and the Jews, fuck off pro-palestine simps.

[opencommunion]

since zionists want to act obtuse about why we're criticizing a superbowl ad, here's an explanation from before the ad even aired. it was openly designed to act as pro-genocide propaganda. fighting antisemitism is a worthy goal but that's not what's happening here:

"The New England Patriots’ 81-year-old owner, Robert Kraft, writes seven-digit checks to the right-wing Israeli lobbying machine AIPAC, but his personal, political, and financial ties to Israel run deeper than the occasional donation. The multibillionaire married his late wife, Myra, in Israel in 1963 when Kraft, then 22, was older than the nation itself. Together they set up numerous business, athletic, and charitable ties to Israel, a record of which is proudly proclaimed on the Kraft company website. In particular, the Kraft Group boasts of its 'Touchdown in Israel' program, where NFL players are given free, highly organized vacations to see 'the holy land' and come back to spread the word about 'the only democracy in the Middle East.' (Not every NFL player has chosen to take part.) Kraft also attends fundraisers for the Israel Defense Forces, currently—and in open view of the world—committing war crimes in Gaza."

Now, as Israel wages war against the civilians of Gaza—more than 25,000 Palestinian have been killed with at least 10,000 of them children—Kraft is again flexing his financial and political muscles in order to defend the indefensible. His Foundation to Combat Antisemitism (FCAS) will be spending an estimated $7 million to buy a Super Bowl ad titled 'Stop Jewish Hate' that will be seen by well over 100 million people. Under Kraft’s direction, the ad’s goal is to create a propaganda campaign to counter the reports and images from Gaza that young people are consuming on social media. 

... The content of the Super Bowl ad is not yet known, but FCAS has afforded Kraft the opportunity to make the rounds on cable news saying things like, 'It’s horrible to me that a group like Hamas can be respected and people in the United States of America can be carrying flags or supporting them.'

This is Kraft enacting the mission of FCAS: fostering disinformation. He is far from subtle: A Palestinian flag becomes a 'Hamas flag,' and people like the hundreds of thousands who took to the streets of Washington, D.C., last month to call for a cease-fire and end the violence are expressions of the 'rise in antisemitism.' Without a sense of irony or the horrors happening on the ground in Gaza, Kraft says he is giving $100 million of his own money to FCAS, because 'hate leads to violence.'

Let’s be clear: What Kraft is doing politically and what he will be using the Super Bowl as a platform to do is dangerous. He appears to think any criticism of Israel is inherently antisemitic. For Kraft, it is Jews like myself, rabbis, and Holocaust survivors calling for a cease-fire and a Free Palestine that are part of the problem. Kraft seems to think that opposition to Israel, the IDF, and the AIPAC agenda is antisemitism.

... Right-wing Christian nationalists, with their belief in a Jewish state existing alongside their conviction that Jews are going to Hell, are welcome in Netanyahu’s Israel and Kraft’s coalition. Left-wing anti-Zionist Jews are not. The greatest foghorn of this evangelical right-wing 'love Israel, hate Jews' perspective is, of course, Donald Trump. Kraft, while speaking of being troubled by events like the Charlottesville Nazi march and the right-wing massacre at the Tree of Life synagogue, counts Donald Trump as a close friend and even donated $1 million to his presidential inauguration.

No one who provides cover for the most powerful, public antisemite in the history of US politics should ever be taken seriously on how to best fight antisemitism. No one who funds AIPAC and the IDF and opposes a cease-fire amid the carnage should be allowed a commercial platform at the Super Bowl. But given that the big game is always an orgy of militarism, blind patriotism, and big budget commercials that lie through their teeth, perhaps that ad could not be more appropriate. We can do better than Kraft’s perspective on how to fight antisemitism. Morally, we don’t have a choice."

[menlove]

like yes "from the river to the sea" is not antisemitic and neither is protesting "jewish businesses" if that business happens to be a weapons manufacturer

but yall seem to think that those two things are the only things people are talking about when we say leftists are being antisemitic rn

like sure fine that's great! but are you

spreading antisemitic conspiracy theories (ie "israelis are stealing unborn babies out of palestinian women and burning them/eating them/using them in xyz ways" w 0 backup yes I've seen that)? connecting absolutely everything to zionists and saying they run the world/media/banks? making random connections to this situation w no proof? (just saw someone say puerto rico getting rid of its stray cat population "has ties to 🍉" like yall need to get serious)

are you saying "idk I just can't trust anyone wearing a star of david now like at this point the star of david is basically a swastika :/ you shouldn't use it"?

are you responding to the list of celebrities who support israel with "well this isn't surprising, hollywood is jewish"?

are you saying israel and every israeli should be destroyed? not "from the river to the sea" or that israel shouldn't exist as a state but I've seen multiple popular leftists saying "idc if the entire place gets bombed and everyone dies" like you realize that includes innocent civilians and people protesting their government and non-jews as well right? like you are advocating for genocide in response to genocide and at this point yall just want more violence, not justice.

are you saying antisemitism isn't a real problem anymore? or like everyone's favorite celebrity rn susan sarandan said "now jews know what muslims feel like" as if antisemitism and islamphobia don't go hand in hand? are you saying antisemitism is a "sad interpersonal problem but not systemic"? are you saying that during the holocaust the jews should have found an alternative to israel (true) by "civil resistance" implying that no jews resisted during the holocaust and that the holocaust was somehow the fault of the jews for not doing enough for themselves? are you saying that anyone bringing up your antisemitism rn needs to shut up bc "it's not about you" because you can't comprehend that people can care about multiple things at once?

are you asking every jew you meet where they stand on palestine and accusing every single jew you disagree with about literally anything of being a zionist? are you calling jews zionists who are just scared of rising antisemitism rn? are you using "zionist" as a placeholder for "jew" bc you can immediately say you're talking about zionists and not jews even if the post has nothing to do w zionism and only judaism?

are you agreeing with and marching with nazis and white supremacists and not realizing?

are you making jews afraid to attend pro-palestine protests because they're getting harassed? and yes this happens at pro-israel protests too but this is a post aimed at pro-palestine leftists bc I am one and that is my audience

are you acting, in general, like the actions of a shitty government and shitty people equate to the beliefs of every single jew on earth? are you making posts comparing judaism to christianity bc of this? saying jews have a history of violence and conquest on par w christianity when it's quite literally just israel and in the rest of history for the last SEVERAL THOUSAND YEARS jews have been anything BUT a world power? do you not hear the parallels to antisemitic conspiracy when you insist on this? outside of israel, what instances can you think of where judaism has been a historically violent and oppressive religion? spoiler: it's not, israel is the baby of colonial interests and thus follows their pattern. it's not because of judaism

are you tolerating and okay with people shouting blatantly antisemitic things at jewish people bc they're shitty people? like think of it this way would you be fine w a bunch of straight people shouting "faggot" at a white gay republican? or a racial slur at a republican of color? would either of those things be fine? no? then aiming actual blatant antisemitism at a zionist is not okay either. you can shout all manner of things at them that don't involve antisemitic phrases, remarks, and threats.

[fairuzfan]

I’m a genocide historian and I do think comparisons between the Holocaust and the genocide in Palestine are unproductive because A) the Holocaust is pretty distinct from Palestinian genocide not in its exceptionalism but in its method - the “shipping” of victims from 20+ countries by international rail to a handful of centralized killing sites; 15000 people being gassed in Auschwitz daily (a single gas chamber had standing capacity for 2,000 people) and their stolen hair sold in bales for use as maritime rope and cushion stuffing - and forcing Holocaust parallels obfuscates the terrible and very unique methods of genocide being used by Israel against Palestinians. B) People often invoke the Holocaust as an emotional appeal regarding the moral culpability of all Jews (“how could you do what was done to your ancestors!”) when the same responsibility to end the genocide in Palestine exists regardless of one’s background or religion.

What Israel is doing in Palestine is 100% a genocide. Whether or not it is similar to the Holocaust (or any previous atrocity) does not make this any more or less true.

The thing that doesn't make sense to me with this point is that no one is saying that the Holocaust and Palestinian genocide are a 1:1 comparison. Like most people acknowledge the terrible genocide that occurred in the Holocaust against all its victims. But when they're talking about comparing genocides, there are tell tale signs that repeat throughout history that are precursers to larger events. Like when people compare the Warsaw ghetto to Gaza. I'd say those are quite similar in practice and intention. When we "compare" genocides (not a 1:1 but more of a drawing parellels by disecting the inteion and reasoning behind certain events that werent necessarily actively violent but passively violent) its to show "hey this is going to get really bad really soon because something like this happened before." Masha Gessen has an article about this that I reblogged.

People should care about fighting injustice everywhere I agree. But that doesn't change the fact that parallel drawing is an act separate from emotional invocation. When genocide scholars and survivors talk about "Hey this was like xyz that happened to me/in history" it's to show that there is precedent for this thinking and a terrible methodology happening when genocides occur. They dont just get really bad out of nowhere, you need to examine the precursors to prevent the large event from happening. How that large event happens differs from place to place, I agree. But to say that because things happen differently against different people means you can't examine the underlying reasons behind those actions is kind of reductive. By this definition you can never compare any genocide ever and all the terrible things that happen just happen naturally without any political or social influence.

Arnesa talks about how the Bosnian genocide precursors mirror the Palestinian genocide. She also talks about how Lula specifically should have mentioned other genocides (like Rwanda, Bosnia, etc) in his statement because there are parallels there too. I'd argue that's the real intention behind genocide studies, in that you notice trends and patterns to analyze how certain events might turn out.

I do want to mention because this is where im coming from a little bit, it is a pretty big zionist talking point (by especially American dems) saying you can't compare the holocaust to what's happening to Palestinians because it's antisemitic, which is not a real talking point and actually kind of rude in that it assumes that Palestinians can't call out parallels between their treatment and the treatment of those in the Holocaust because they're fundamentally doing it from a point of antisemitism and not a plea for recognition that the events are mirroring each other.

[ourflagmeansgayrights]

okay I'm this is a tall order but I am so confused about Taika. Does he support Israel? I've seen so many posts about people spreading rumors about him and other people saying he does support Israel, so what's the haps??

so the rumor that taika supports israel comes from the fact that he (and like 200 other hollywood ppl including some very famous names like mark hamill or jack black but for some reason ppl only are talking abt taika) signed a letter thanking biden for working to release hostages and fight hamas. the language in the letter does not acknowledge that israel is a settler colonial state and that hamas exists as a direct result of settler colonial violence.

the letter is bad but it’s bad in the way that someone who is not informed about the conflict probably would not pick up on. it’s a letter that on its surface just looks like concern for civilian hostages, which is a good and normal thing to be concerned about. the letter was also probably about as effective as when all those celebrities sang “imagine” during covid lockdowns, which is to say that it most likely did nothing. i doubt biden is making global decisions based on what 200 rich people in hollywood think (if anything he’s probably making decisions based on what 200 oil executives think ahaha)

ppl have also connected taika signing this letter to guz khan getting fired from ofmd. there was a rumor that he was fired bc he supports palestine, which is almost certainly not true. guz was fired bc the show got a 40% budget cut for s2 and his character was the easiest to write off. guz has said he wouldn’t compromise his morals for a job but that this wasn’t the job where he had to do that, and he has blocked the person who started that rumor. ALSO several actors in ofmd have since posted supporting palestine so like?? this one is pure antisemetic conspiracy theory. if taika had a problem with guz supporting palestine why was guz even hired in the first place.

anyway signing the letter was a bad thing that taika should not have done but it is impossible to determine his stance on israel based solely on the fact that he signed that letter. he has also liked posts about freeing palestine so like, who knows. i personally have much better things to be doing than scrutinizing everything a famous poc does to try and prove if he’s a good or bad person

tl;dr there is no hard evidence that taika supports israel ppl just hate him for being a wildly successful brown jewish man

[ticklepinions]

Everyone should read the following. If we are a community you need to understand a few things.

Are you entitled to say anything you want due to "free speech"? Hell yeah!

Should you? Absolutely the fuck not!

The blatant racism, anti-queerness, transphobia, misogyny and fatphobia I have seen is down right abhorrent. And if you display any of these ideologies or opinions, you simply do not belong here. You shouldn't be comfortable making a safe space for yourself as you make this lovely community unsafe for the rest of us.

There is nothing political about human rights. But unfortunately that's where we are in this life. I'll try not to be biased but certain political leanings tells me all I need to know about you. POC conservatives will always make me laugh. You are nothing but a pawn for the cis/hetero/whites who don't give a shit if you live or die. Nothing but a slur, a body to dispose of. You may share their views but they are not sharing the power and privilege they have with you.

Let's talk about certain individuals who act so tough under the "big strong amurican sharing their views just to get shitted on, fucking snowflakes". Why do you want to be oppressed so badly? Why do you purposely antagonize people and then when they defend themselves you try dismissing them by saying how they're wasting their time... The irony of it all. The sheer ignorance.

I feel sorry for you people. Truly, I do. But I'll be damned if I let any of you try to tear any of us down for having opinions and ideologies (hint hint see the irony?) that fight for the rights of people who don't have them.

And let me get something clear- from the river to the sea. We all should not stop fighting till all of us are free. There are so many resources out there to educate yourself, yet you choose to remain ignorant. You do not belong here. You act as though you are better than everyone else because you have "edgy" opinions, opinions that literally call for the deaths of the marginalized and oppressed. You do not belong here. You have the gall to tell people they are wasting their time, when their sheer existence alone is putting them at risk for isolation and death (by the same bigoted people you support). You do not belong here.

If an elephant (Israel) has it's foot on a mouse's (Palestine) tail, tell me which one is truly the one at risk. There is a gen0cide going on. If Israel is trying to reclaim it's "land" why bomb it? Why destroy it? With a military with their degree they should be able to eliminate all these "terr0rists" with minimal to no "collateral damage" (aka the 30,000 innocent Palestinians, 2/3rds of which were woman and children, with countless injured, orphaned, homeless and starving). Why bomb hospitals, mosques, sacred places? Standing with Palestinian people is not antisemitism, it's anti gen0cide and war crimes (a multitude of which Israel has shamelessly committed).

And I'm not on anon. I stand for the people of Palestine. I stand for justice. I stand for equity. I stand for the freedom of all oppressed people.

And I implore everyone who follows me to educate themselves. The right path does not lead you to discriminate against the marginalized. Continue to fight my friends, continue to amplify the voices of those unheard, continue making this community and those you belong to, safe for all and unsafe for those who think otherwise.

For you @knismosexual + @littleonelee

I hope you truly reflect on how your actions impacts this entire community and the communities you live in. Until you learn how to act right, unfortunately this community isn't for you. You shouldn't feel welcome here. You shouldn't feel like you belong here. DMs are wide open if you have any thoughts. But again I say, supporting transphobic, racist, anti-queer, misogynistic, discriminatory views is not simply an "opinion" or personality to adopt. You are hurting real people, accepting the deaths and harassment that plague them every single day. You have no place in this community.

[callimara]

I don't know what to do.

When I tried talking to a close relative of mine about Palestine, they went on a spiel. They insisted that it wasn't genocide, that Isr*el had given them their land, that Palestine was warned about the Hamas and still voted for them, that Palestine struck first, that Isr*el warned them and gave them time to move south before Isr*el attacked. They insisted the support for Palestine is spurred on by propaganda!

When I asked my relative for proof, they dodged the question, claimed they've known about the whole thing about Isr*el and Palestine for a very long time, and said something about something being in the quran.

Now I'm torn and I'm not sure what's true anymore!

I have so many asks to go through, but I think this one is very important to answer.

To start, I think you are very brave for asking questions and trying to find the truth amidst all the propaganda, so here's what I know.

For some context, I am an Indonesian, and Indonesia and Palestine have very close diplomatic relations and share many similarities in history. We were both colonized and had to resist occupation in a white supremacist world where you are seen as lesser if your skin isn't white and savages/terrorists if you resist or if you want your land back.

Palestine was also the first to recognize Indonesia's independence in 1945, and Indonesia has built a hospital in Gaza that is one of the last ones currently standing due to relentless Israeli bombardments.

People who have gone through oppression recognize oppression. And so far the only people I have seen supporting Israel have been people who had been indoctrinated with Zionist views from childhood, people who are NOT educated on the history of Israel (and why they were there in Palestine to begin with and it is NOT because of the holocaust, which I will explain further down), and Evangelical Christians who want to bring on the rapture. Even then, what they are so angry and appalled by are people calling to send aid, and their only argument for not allowing aid into Gaza because they will be used to create weapons and rockets.

They genuinely believe that Palestinians have a magical ability to turn things like food, water, and medicine into rockets.

So, I will go through your relatives' points one by one.

Firstly, it is not a religious issue. And it never had been. This is colonization and apartheid. Do not let the media or uninformed people tell you otherwise, because that is how they justify and defend its existence.

Israel gave them their land back

Lots of Israelis say that Israeli forces completely pulled out of Gaza in 2005. That isn't 'giving land back' that is 'withdrawing from taking more land.' The entirety of what is now Israel WAS Palestine, and Palestinians aren't even asking for ALL of it back, just the borders that they had in 1967.

Also, if you're wondering why they pulled back, it's because you cannot bombard your own occupied territory, which we see them doing freely now.

Palestine was warned about Hamas

Really? That's so funny because Hamas is backed and funded by Benjamin Netanyahu (his own words at a press conference with an Israeli news cite, not mine) and his US minions to try and oppose the PLO (Palestine Liberation Movement), who were seen as a more legitimate governing body that would make Israel and the US look bad for trying to eradicate them. So, they chose a more extremist group that they'd have an easier time selling as "barbaric terrorists" as a justification to bombard Gaza with impunity. If this sounds familiar, that's because it should. It's all part of their playbook.

Palestine struck first

This did not begin on October 7th. This has been going on since the Nakba in 1948. What happened on October 7th was tragic, but it was IDF bullets that killed those hostages. It took them 6 hours to respond (a survivor said that Hamas had to ASK them to call the IDF, because they were not coming), and when they came, they killed their own civilians and hostages in the crossfire. Watch this video for the full evidence.

Hamas took hostages for a hostage swap. For the thousands of Palestinian civilians that had been kidnapped and wrongfully detained (some of them WITHOUT CHARGES) in Israeli prisons, which included KIDS. And as of now, Israel has rejected the Israeli hostages 3 times even though they are killing them in the bombardment.

Israel has something called the Hannibal Directive. Go look it up.

Because no one in their right mind would agree that just because there is a school shooter hiding inside a school with hostages while using the students as human shields, the only course of action is to then bomb the entire school.

And ask yourself, if this is truly a war on Hamas and Israel valued Palestinian civilian lives as much as they do Israeli lives, then if Hamas was hiding in Israel, would the IDF be using the same approach as they are currently using for Gaza? And if not, then why.

Israel warned them and gave them time to move south

They gave 1 million people 24 hours to complete a trek that would have taken 72 hours. 1 million people who had mostly been women, children, and the handicapped. And during the evacuation, they were bombing convoys, ambulances, and safe routes. Then when they finally got to the south of Gaza, they were bombed there too. In the place where they were supposed to be safe.

Also, if Russia had warned Ukraine that they were going to bomb them and gave them time to evacuate, does that then make it ok for Russia to bomb Ukraine? Of course not, that's a silly argument.

The support for Palestine is spurred on by propaganda

Well, which one between Palestine and Israel literally has the entire western media in their pocket? Which one has been PAYING influencers to voice their support for their country? Which one has been proven to spread LIES unquestioned? (Like 40 beheaded babies, for instance? Or using AI generated images for proof?) Which one has been posting tweets proudly declaring that they have committed war crimes, deleting the tweets, and backtracking?

Which one has fucking social media accounts that are beefing with models and celebrities who are against them, and are using influencer's images without their permission to make it seem like they're on THEIR side?

So now, let's talk about Israel and Holocaust Survivors.

First of all, the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine began in 1917 when Britain signed the Balfour Declaration, which states that they are giving away their occupied colony of Palestine to a group of Zionists immigrating to Palestine from Eastern Europe and Yemen. First thing to note here, there were already Palestinians living on the land, it was not a barren empty land, and it was colonized by the British. So the British gave away stolen land that they had no right to give away in the first place.

The holocaust survivors didn't arrive in Israel until the end of WW2 in the 1940s where they were then scorned and laughed at by the Zionist settlers in Palestine for being 'weak victims.' The holocaust victims continued to be discriminated against and left to live in poverty by the Israeli gov't.

However, their arrival gave the west a reason to arm the settlers so that they can 'defend themselves' from all the 'vicious, evil, uncivilized Arabs' they were surrounded by. And they used this excuse and dehumanization to displace 750,000 Palestinians from their land. The Nakba.

And they continue to use the holocaust survivors (that they are also treating badly) as a shield from international criticism to expand until we have the borders we have today.

[angrybell]

He’s so appalled he’s done…. Absolutely nothing.

Jews get harassed and attacked at rallies. Biden does nothing.

Jews get harassed and attacked on campus. Biden does nothing.

Jews get harassed and attacked at their synagogue. Biden sends a tweet.

Why is the majority of my community supporting this man and this party? He’s never been a real friend. He hates Jews when they defend themselves. He likes us as victim, but not enough to do anything tangible.

Has Garland been ordered to prosecute s1985 cases, treating these pro “Palestinian” thugs like the KKK as they should be? No.

He wants to import more of them.

He wants to reward their terror by supporting an independent “Palestine”. The only people who will profit from this are the terrorists who want formal recognition because it affords them more protections for when they launch their next 10/7 style attack.

So why are we supporting this man? He’s not good for us.

Oh that’s right.. Trump. Did Trump permit pogroms? Did Trump undercut Israel trying to destroy a terrorist organization?

No. He did worse. He said mean things.

Don’t tell me that Biden did things better than Trump. Most of Biden’s successes are continuations to Trump’s policies. Most of the failures are Biden’s personal or party initiatives.

Do you not see the absolute insanity?

I get that many in the community are unable to override three or more generations of indoctrination that American Jewish protection can only come from the Democrats. It makes absolutely no sense historically when you consider that the Democrats were the ones who

Was the party of the KKK.

Strictly enforced the immigration quotas against the Jews before and during

Did not criticize Hitler for his treatment of the Jews and other minorities by the Nazis

Obama embraced and provided funds to nations, most notably Iran, who had committed or orchestrated acts of terror against Jews in Israel and around the world. He then tried to make it possible for them to construct nuclear weapons through a deal that perversely was sold as a deal to prevent Iran from making nuclear weapons.

Have continually elected openly antisemitic members to Congress for the past decade.

Biden has tried to prevent Israel from rescuing American and Israeli Jews held by Hamas by establishing a “red line” when it comes to Rafah.

Our allegiance to the Democrats is a poisonous inheritance of our ancestors. Back in Eastern Europe, the socialists were the only ones not likely to participate in the pogroms while the Russian and Austrian-Hungarian Empires existed. And because of that, Jews were attracted to that. Yes, there are some aspects of their program that agrees with Jewish culture, but many of those same areas can also be found with conservative movements as well.

What worked, badly, for the Jewish community at the start of the 29th century does not work for us anymore. Remaining wed to the Democrats is like an abused spouse saying “they really will change this time.”

They’re not. They’ve promised to get worse.

So, are we going to vote for our own destruction? Or are we going to use our power and votes to support someone, or just as importantly to support someone?

I get that if you’ve gotten this far you’ve at least thought of something along these lines but then you get to the other option: Trump. He’s been more vilified than any politician in American politics in the last half century. He’s got a lot of faults. So maybe you’re not ready to vote for him.

Fine. At least don’t vote for Biden. And, if you live in one of the districts, don’t vote for members of the “The Squad”. Don’t donate to the Democrats or groups that are simply going to give it to Biden.

Otherwise, you’re saying you’re fine with where this heading. Another 4 years of Democrat rule is not going to fix the problems we’re experiencing. It’s going to make them worse.

[vaspider]

Hey, sending this off anon so you can answer privately if you wish. I'm really confused about the difference between being anti-Zionist and pro-Palestine. I've been using both interchangeably for myself, but apparently that's incorrect? I don't know who else to ask.

So... I haven't had anon on in like 12 years, I don't do private answers, and I don't talk about I/P online.

But let's talk about a different issue instead. Let's talk about reproductive rights instead, as a means of just talking about why being anti-Thing1 doesn't mean you're pro-Thing2.

(I swear to fuck if anyone comes onto this post and tries to say I made some sort of direct weird parallel between Israel and either of the examples below to try to 'prove' something about me or drag me into stuff I have said I don't talk about, I will yeet them into the fucking sun. The purpose of these examples is solely to use easily-understood references to explain how you can be anti-Thing1 without being pro-Thing2.)

If someone is anti-abortion, that doesn't mean they're pro-parenting or pro-baby. It's about where their focus is, right? Lots of people are just like 'well, we don't think abortions should exist. There should be no abortions.' Well, great. But what's your plan for the people who are pregnant and don't want to be? They're not going to stop existing just because you think abortions shouldn't exist.

But a lot of people who are anti-abortion don't have plans for that. All they have is a firm belief that abortions shouldn't exist. No one should need them, no one should want them, no one has a right to them. All other concerns go by the wayside.

Or the people who live around me who want homeless people off the streets, but have no plan for how to get people off the streets. They just say 'well, there shouldn't be any homeless people on the streets of Portland,' but their answer is fines and jail time. (This is a real thing happening where I live, btw. Fines for daytime camping, as if that's going to help people get off the streets. Now they have a fine they also can't pay with all of the money they don't have.) These people have no plans for affordable housing, they feel like it's perfectly acceptable to define someone as 'turning down' shelter even if that shelter requires you to be inside by 9 PM and the unhoused person doesn't don't get out of work until 11 PM. Their focus isn't on the positive thing -- people obtaining housing security -- it's on the thing they think shouldn't be happening: unhoused people where they have to see them/be inconvenienced by them.

You can be anti-abortion without being even remotely pro-parent or pro-baby. You can be anti-homelessness without being pro-housing security. It's all about what your actual focus is.

In this case, the question you have to ask yourself is: is it more important to me that to be anti-Zionist or to be pro-Palestine? I can't answer that question for you, because, like I said, I don't talk about I/P at all online, and -- more importantly -- it's going to completely depend on how you, personally, define Zionism, let alone anti-Zionism, and how you, personally, define being pro-Palestine.

You're gonna have to wrestle that one out on your own.

[centrally-unplanned]

I have been seeing a bunch of buzz recently online about a possible "decline in value" of the ivy league+ degree - Nate Silver didn't start it but he certainly accelerated it. And while there is nothing robust you do see things like surveys of hiring manager opinions out there to suggest its possible, its not a crazy idea even if its far from proven. So assuming its real, why would it be happening?

1: This discourse is obviously happening because of the recent protests at top US schools - essentially its the idea that elite students are hyperpolitical, coddled, and out of touch with reality. This causal path should be very, very silly. The vast, vast majority of students at Columbia are not protesting. They don't really care about this topic! Sure, if asked, they agree Israel Bad Right Now, but otherwise they are busy with finals and job apps. This is of course equally true at most other schools, its just not a mass movement in that way (protesting to be clear rarely is). This is a specific instance of the general trap of selection bias - the visible students aren't the median ones.

Stacked on top of that is the second level of selection bias - the median protestor is not a business major or engineer! They are exactly the kind of students for whom being a politically engaged activist is *good* for their career, not bad, or at least neutral. Schools produce a large diversity of career outcomes, and those students self-select on how they spend their time, there is no "median" student to observe really.

And ofc all of this has to rest on the foundational reality that people are products of their context - jobless 20 year old's surrounded by young peers protest a bunch, that is what that context produces. The large majority of them will become mortgage-paying white collar workers by the time they are 30, this identity will not stick with them. If they become political activists it will, sure! But if you are the hiring manager for Palantir this isn't going to be the trend for your hires. There are "politically liable" hires out there but you aren't going to predict them via the sorting algorithm of "was at Columbia in 2024", that is for sure.

Now, as much as this is a silly idea, humanity are zeitgeist creatures - I can't actually reject the idea that, despite it being silly, hiring managers might use this moment to feel like they are "over" the Ivy League and start dismantling the privileged place their applications currently get. Cultural tipping points are vibes-based, and amoung elites (unlike the masses, who don't care much) Israel/Palestine has an awful lot of tense vibes.

2: Still, I don't think this is explaining those survey results people are throwing around, and I don't think its explained (very much at least) by the general "woke uni" trends of the past half decade. It is instead downstream of wider trends.

There was a time where companies really did want "the smart guy". You could major in English at Harvard, write a good thesis on Yeats, and be off to the trading desk in Chambers St two weeks after graduation. Those days are over - for complex reasons we won't get into - and nowadays people expect their new hires to be as close to experts in the field as they can manage. Students have internships, consulting clubs, capstone projects with real clients, specialized sub majors, the works. These are all ways of saying "signaling quality" has gotten more legible and more specific over time. Why would I choose a Harvard English major over a University of Illinois finance major who did a research internship with our specific Chicago firm on midwest agricultural derivates markets? Students like that exist by the bucketful now, and the Ivys cannot monopolize them. Partially because they choose not to; Columbia could actually say fuck it and make its school 90% finance majors, but they don't want that, they specifically recruit intellectually diverse students. Which means State School finance types will fill the remaining slots slots.

The other reason they can't monopolize is much simpler - numbers. The US has way more "elite" jobs today than it did in the past. Programmers and their adjacencies are the biggest growth sector, but everything from doctors to analysts to lawyers is all up up up. And do you know what isn't up? Undergraduate enrollment at elite schools! Columbia's has grown by like 10% over the past 20 years; Harvard's is essentially unchanged. For, again, reasons, these schools have found the idea of doubling or tripling their undergraduate enrollment, despite ballooning applications, impossible. Which means of course Microsoft can't hire from Stanford alone. So they don't, and they have learned what other schools deliver talent, and no longer need Stanford alone. The decline of Ivy Power is in this sense mathematical - if a signal of quality refuses to grow to meet demand, of course other signals will emerge.

I therefore personally think, while minor, the Ivy+ schools are experiencing declining status, have been for a while, and will continue to do so (though there are offsetting trends not mentioned here btw). But its structural way more than cultural.

[ursa-the-stranger]

Op had to restrict replies but I wanted to reblog so heres a copy paste of it sans op's name. I will take this down if they ask however.

I have been noodling over posting this for several days but I think it's important for some people to hear.

At a March on Saturday, at a pro Palestine march, my group and I were targeted by by nazis. Not targeted for violence, but targeted for recruitment. They weren't wearing swastikas, they weren't spewing blatant antisemitic hate speech. They seemed like two normal dudes. They marched with us, talked about how awful everything in Palestine was, how we wished world leaders would grow a pair and hold Israel responsible for fucking war crimes, how existing in the world right now was hard. They were empathetic, they were kind, they seemed like genuine good dudes.

Until we passed a synagogue where people were handing our water to marchers. They had signs defending Palestine on their table. But the tone of the conversation changed. These two seemingly normal dudes started talking about how "performative" the gesture felt, that Jewish people should be doing more. That they needed to PROVE it. They started talking about "Zionist" propaganda in the US, about how it was deeply entrenched in capitalism. Things that, on the surface, seemed reasonable but it set off alarm bells in my head.

When I was a kid, I remember getting the speech of "don't repeat anything your uncle or cousin so and so says and don't argue with them. Try to avoid them but if you can't be polite." Because those uncles and cousins said a lot of hateful things about anyone who wasn't like them, but their favorite targets were black people and Jewish people. I would find out as an adult it was because many of those uncles and cousins were in the Klan. When I studied hate symbols for a class in college, I found my self looking at images I'd seen on arms and necks and hands my whole life, because I live in an area of the US where the KKK is still around. And standing in that crowd, listening to these guys talk, i had the most horrible realization I've had in a long time.

We were being fished by Nazis. We were a group of able body, white American leftists. At a march in support of stopping the murder and genocide of Palestinians, these motherfuckers were out here, trying to find people they could get to hate Jewish folks. I wasn't the only one in my group who clocked it, and when we called them on it, the masks came off. They called us a bunch of "Jew loving bitches" before they moved on.

But we're marched with these guys for a couple hours, talked with them, laughed with them, brought them into our circle. For a moment we forgot we also weren't immune to propaganda, we weren't immune to people who make hate sound reasonable and that people like that never start out saying the quiet part out loud, they lean on your anger and your sense of helplessness to move you where they want you. If the last eight years has taught us anything, it's that fascists know how to adjust to the times, to work with what they got, to recruit. They know how to radicalize people, how to weaponize anger and helplessness. And I'm sitting here, every day, seeing posts that sound exactly like these guys did and it worries me.

I know I'm talking to the No Reading Comprehension Website, but I'm begging you guys to develop some now.

You are not immune to propaganda. We are all angry, as we fucking should be. We are watching an entire culture, thousands of lives, whole bloodlines, being wiped out in real time, and for many of us our nations are at best, wringing their hands, and at worst, shipping them weapons, all to protect capitalist greed. It's monstrous, it's disgusting. But look, REALLY LOOK, at the things you are tweeting, sharing, look at the language and how it's used. Take the time to educate yourself about how hate groups use social justice causes and civil unrest to recruit, research the posts your spreading, check your sources. If you are out protesting, be situationally aware, and do not be afraid to clock and call out Nazis. Listen to Jewish people, listen to their concerns, educate yourself on what Zionism and antisemitism actually are and how they can be weaponized. It doesn't feel as good as rage, it doesn't feel as good as having a group you can functionally rail against in a way we can't against a nation a world away, but it's a skill that's going to help you and a lot of other people in the long run.

[ch4liz4rd-jpeg]

one of the absolutely most frustrating things in the western leftist attitude towards "zionism" is that they use zionism to describe something that has its own word. kahanism. but instead they choose to go through hoops to redefine a belief system that ISNT theirs to define. words change overtime, but westerners and goyim dont get to decide what a word that is culturally significant to jews means. and just because the tiny fraction of jews that are antizionist allow you to decide doesnt mean that the wider jewish community who are zionists agree with that.

lets also get one thing clear: zionism is an ancient jewish value. throughout the jewish peoples time in exile away from the land of israel, there was always a strong desire to return to zion, which refers to yerushalayim or the land of israel as a whole. just because someone jew in America might tell you "well i feel no connection to israel" DOESNT MEAN THAT EVERY JEW AGREES.

zionism is the belief that the jewish people deserve self determination in our ancient ancestral land, which encompasses the kingdom of israel and judah. that what it is at its very core. in modern definitions its the idea that the state of israel deserves to continue existing.

ive seen antizionists define zionism as "facism" just a Different ideology, or something along the lines of "kill palestinians" and "take over the world" no where in zionist belief do we think that jews must take over the world, or that palestinians must die for jews to live. or that the modern state of israel must be an exclusively jewish state. the founders of israel picked sovereignty snd safety over maximalism, meaning they chose to settle for the land given in the agreements ALTHOUGH a lot of the land that has our ancient history wasnt actually in our defined land which remains as such to this day.

now, kahanism. kahanism is in my eyes an appropriation of what zionism is. kahanism is an extreme right wing and racist take/"branch" of zionism. the idea that israel must be exclusively jewish, no arabs no muslims no christians, and many kahanists like ben gvir even believe that israel should reoccupy the gaza strip. kahanism ( the kach party) was banned from the knesset, israels parliament. but i think its with this move that our rotten politicians did to circumvent this ban is what has really fucked the perception of israel and zionism beyond repair alongside the propaganda about what zionism is. kahanists have essentially decided that kahanism is actually what truly zionist belief is, so they decide to call their movement a Zionist movement. so the "oztma yehudit" (jewish power, disgusting of them to call themselves this btw 😀😀) party peddles the idea that theyre a zionist movement when really, they are just kahanist and anti arab and anti palestinian. its not fucking "jewish power" to be racist. its maddening to me how many "zionists" are actually racist and bigoted and kahanist and then a lot of antizionists see them and say "look at so so, they say theyre zionist and theyre actually racist bigots who want to flatten gaza, every zionist believes that" and when you believe in palestinian self determination and the continued existence of israel and are thus a zionist, youre now morally wrong and inferior, when the perception of zionism is so beyond warped from its true definition. and as much as people will say "not all jews are zionists!" and "im not antisemetic im jusy antizionist!" its very clear how this has given a lot of closeted jew haters the chance to spew blood libel and misinformation. i do believe that there are well intentioned people in the anti israel/anti zionist/pro palestine movement. i truly truly want to believe that. and if you got this far and consider yourself pro palestine, look left snd right in your movement. learn about the old blood libel thst was used against jews for thousands of years thst is now beinh rehashed with more palatable language. there is a LOT of antisemitism in the palestinian movement, and if people who are truly not jew haters have to stand up for what is right to wash the movement clean of antisemitic libel and violence.

i couldnt find a place to fit this in the previous paragraph but israelis are constantly fighting bibis coalition, most israelis crave nothing more then our hostages back and bibi out of politics. our government has done literally nothing to actually help us for a long fucking time. it is incompetent snd we are in dire need to a better prime minister. im thinking of doing a post about how israeli elections, coalitions, parties and knesset works plus an overview of the parties and their ideologies at some point, so lmk if youd be interested

so, pro palestinian and dont hate jews or israelis? actually want to stand for peace?? seriously, put in the effort. because we cannot see you. you are overshadowed by people using the movement to be antisemitic and spread lies about the jewish people.