What has been one of the most challenging things youâve experienced or are currently experiencing?
âI think itâs right now living here in America, far away from my family, my boyfriend, my country, from everything I used to live for my past twenty-three years. I am here in a new world, only for a month. Itâs hard because I have to spend a full year here. Iâm trying to make it easy, if I can say that.â
What brought you to the United States?
âI came here because I graduated in May and they asked me if I wanted to work at Yale School of Medicine. I said yes because I thought it was a good opportunity for meâthis jobâfor my cultural development. I am currently working as a researcher.â
What was that point like in your life when you were deciding to come to the United States for a year?
âI was excited because in my mind I only saw the United States in pictures and videos. Itâs all like heaven here; I donât know why they think that. I was scared because I would be alone, and I knew that, but I wanted to try because if I didnât try I couldnât say I liked it or I didnât like it. If I never came here, maybe at some point in my life, I would regret it. I preferred to not be happy at the end, but at least I did it, and not coming here, feeling worse because I never came here. Does that make sense?â
You must have had to have conversations with your friends and family.
âI decided by myself and said yes. I talked to everybody because itâs a great opportunity that would come once in a life to work at Yale. I said yes because of the big opportunity. I knew in my mind that my family and everyone who knows me would be okay with the decision, so I wasnât afraid to say yes.â
What was your biggest fear coming to the United States for a year?
âIt was to be getting shot, because everyone is allowed to have a gun here. In Italy, itâs not allowed. Everyone told me not to go in that part of the city because itâs dangerous because everyone has a gun, but I know the limits to where I can and canât walk. If I walk in a dangerous part of Rome or Milan, I am safe 100 percent because I know for sure they donât have a gun. If they are crazy or aggressive, I can protect myself better because they are harmless. I think giving guns to people is increasing the dangers, even in a small way. Everyone has the same power to kill somebody and it is scary for me. Every time I walk around, I am looking with like fifty eyes behind and ahead. I just walk and donât annoy anyone because Iâm afraid. Itâs sad to say, but itâs the idea I have because they told me that New Haven is a dangerous place to stay and I idealized in my mind because everyone has a gun and everyone is able to damage people.â
Iâm sure you must have seen news coverage of all the shootings, not just in New Haven, but all over the US.
âYeah, I know.â
Shooters coming into schools, movie theaters, and concerts. How is that looked at from your standpoint being from Italy?
âItâs something that, I donât know, because in Italy and in all of Europe, itâs not something you think about at all. Of course, there is terrorism and stuff like that. Itâs one mad person in one thousand people. Here, you can give a gun to anybody, so everybody can have a gun. It makes no sense because if you shoot a person, you go to jail, but you are allowed to have a gun at home, for what? To defend yourself? From who? Anyone who has a gun? Just donât give a gun and everyone will live in a safe way, and no one will worry about going out of their house and going out to have fun with their friends.â
Is your family concerned for your safety with you being here?
âYes, they are very worried, but I told them that itâs all okay. I only go out of my house during the week to go to work. I hope Iâm not in danger. I hope for me, for them, and everybody that knows me.â
Where did you grow up in Europe?
âIn Italy, in Sardinia. Itâs an island. Itâs the second island of Italy. I lived in Sardinia. It is a quiet place to stay. Itâs different from the rest of Italy because itâs isolated, so we are in a little world to ourselves. We are surrounded by beaches and the sea. We are a summer paradise for the full year, even when itâs winter. We are more quiet people. There are no big cities. Compared to the big cities in Italy, itâs a small world. Itâs a quiet island. Maybe because I grew up there, I see everything bigger and everything is too much.â
How old were you when you left that town or that place?
âIt was last month.â
Oh, it was last month. So, you grew up there and stayed there?
âYes. I stayed for five years in the main city, but Iâm from a little town on the west coast of Sardinia.â
Do you have brothers and sisters?
âNo, Iâm an only child. Maybe thatâs why my family is so worried about me.â
What was growing up like for you?
âI grew up okay.â
What do your parents do?
âMy dad drives trucks all around the island for shops. My mom is a, how do you say it? Not an architect, but like an architect.â
Is she a designer?
âThe people who draw all the plans for houses and buildings, but not an architect. The one who only draws.â
A draftsman? A quantity surveyor . . . hmm. She draws the blueprints for architects.
âYes.â
Thatâs an important job.
âI think it was most important in the past, but not now.â
Is she doing it on the computer now?
âNo, I think sheâs not doing it anymore because she left that job, and now she stays home.â
So, youâre in a relationship, right? You were in a relationship before you came here. What is his name?
âLuca.â
How did you meet Luca?
âIn the library at my university where we were studying. We became friends first, then we stayed together, and now itâs been two and one-half years.â
What attracted you to Luca?
âHis kindness. His eyes. His face. Everything. His body. His soul. His heart. Everything that makes me understand that he loves me. Everything.â
Did you talk to him first or did he talk to you first?
âI donâtâ remember, but I think we saw each other and said hi at the same time, and then we began to talk. It was kind of a natural thing to know people. At first, he was not my boyfriend, he was just my friend. I wasnât thinking about it. It was easier to know a new boy at the beginning.â
Had you had boyfriends before that?
âYes, but not serious ones.â
Do your parents know that youâre homosexual?
âYes.â
What was that like, having that conversation?
âMy mom always knew. She wanted to force it out of me and she would say, you have something to say, feel free to say it, and I said that I had nothing to say. I never spoke about it with my dad, but he knows and I know he loves me. Heâs a quiet person and doesnât talk too much. My mom just loves me. They know my boyfriend, so itâs okay.â
It must have been difficult to be in a relationship for that amount of time and then to put it on pause, put many miles between it, at least.
âItâs not on pause. We call each other every day and we text all day, every day. If I donât think about the distance, itâs not so difficult to accept. The worst thing to accept is the lack of time because there is a six-hour difference. When I get out of work and I want to call him, I canât because heâs already sleeping, because itâs too late there and we arenât on the same time. So, thatâs the most difficult thing I guess, not only the distance. We have to organize it to call each other. Sometimes heâs busy and Iâm free, or Iâm busy and heâs free, so thereâs no common time. If we were on the same time, we would be free at the same hours and it would be easier.â
Are you able to Facetime?
âYes. Facetime, Skype, Whatsapp, everything.â
Do you have any fears about your relationship withstanding a year apart?
âNo, because I trust him and he trusts me. So, no, but itâs not a year. I will go back to Italy for Christmas. It will be like a deep breath inside the waiting room. I want to spend many days over the holidays because I want to spend most of them with him. Of course, with my family also, but my first thought is him.â
So, youâre not scared because you trust each other. Did you just naturally trust him or was it something the two of you built together somehow?
âBoth. We tell each other everything and, at the beginning, of course, it was different than now. I can say that I love him more than yesterday and I trust him more than yesterday, and tomorrow maybe I will love and trust him more than today. Itâs something thatâs growing, and you have to build it together, not in one direction because it would be useless without an endpoint. I can say that Iâm happy with him and we are both waiting to be together again. After, we will be stronger together for sure, and our relationship will be more beautiful than now. That is my wish and what I hope.â
What do you think the secret is to building trust?
âNot to have secrets between you and your partner. Just tell them everything and if you want to say something, just be honest and ask, and try to find a compromise if there is . . . maybe you have opposite thoughts. Itâs not a yes or a no, but you have to find a maybe. Itâs not black or white. You have to find your gray. The important thing is that you both have to stay happy. If one is not happy, you donât do anything and everything, because itâs useless and it will affect your relationship because itâs only one way. You have to be secure, both of you, and be happy at the same level, not one more than the other.â
Do you think itâs your responsibility to make the other person happy in a relationship?
âYes, heâs happy because I am what I am. Iâm not doing anything special. I feel flattered at the same time and I feel free to be me because I know that heâs happy and he always tells me.â
So, just being yourself and making sure that youâre happy benefits your relationship.
âYes.â
That makes sense.
âOtherwise he will not be in love with me, but with someone else.â
If you stop being true to yourself and doing what makes you happy, youâll be unhappy, which will make the relationship not balanced, and then the other person will not be attracted to what they were initially attracted to.
âYes.â
That makes sense. So, you came here to the States. How long have you been here so far?
âA month.â
Whatâs one of the most difficult things that youâre finding in this first month of being here?
âFoodâ.
What do you mean?
âI canât find some foods here that I easily find in Italy. If I find them, they have a different taste. They are not the same. Maybe the lack of friends, cultural things, like when you go out for the weekend, you do something that you donât do in Italy because you think it may be in the afternoon, not in the night. Itâs a cultural thing. Itâs hard to explain. I have to find out this thing because itâs only a month. Maybe I will discover more, if I stay more. The impression of a small town. Maybe if I go to New York City, it will be totally different on the weekends and during the nights. Maybe there are more opportunities that I donât find in a small town.â
Are you finding it challenging to make friends here? What is that experience like for you?
âYeah. I am trying to make friends. Unfortunately, I have to go through the app because itâs the fastest way to find someone that has your interests, but I have to say that there are more people interested in dates than finding someone to hang out with. They want to hook up and not make friends, and if you say I am looking for friends, they will not respond to you because itâs not for that app. You have to say okay, whatever, next. Itâs a sad way to make friends, because you are choosing the people you want to be your friends only for the esthetics. If you want to make friends, you have to give everybody a chance, but itâs difficult. I hope maybe I will be introduced to someone through one person and then it will go easy. Itâs what I hope for me. I want to meet someone I can trust, and then he will introduce me to his friends, and then I will meet people in a sure way. Itâs the common way to know people.â
What are some of the ways you cope with going through this transition in your life when you may be feeling lonely or homesick? How do you cope with that?
âHow can I avoid this?â
How do you make yourself feel better when youâre experiencing that?
âI just call my boyfriend. I put some music in my ears. I go to YouTube and search for funny videos, and I sleep. Maybe I go to work and just think about the work, but it can be okay for the week. On the weekend, when youâre not seeing anyone at work and youâre alone at your house, your thoughts speak for you and itâs too much to handle, so you have to be more strong when youâre lonely. I think you have to fight back.â
What advice would you offer to somebody else who may be going through a big change in their life or about to make a big change in their life, say to move to another state, to a new country, or to take a new opportunity? If someone you knew was about to experience a big change, what would you suggest to them?
âTo be strong. To cry when he or she wants to cry because itâs liberating. Accept the new life, take and find all the positive things you are able to find. Live your new life and enjoy everything. If you feel sad, listen to your favorite music, go for a walk, or maybe go to the gym or run to avoid bad thoughts and focus on something you like. I think it will be only the first period, and it will get easier, and you will not realize that you are staying in the new country. The time just flies away.â
You mentioned music a few times. Is there a particular kind of music that comforts you?
âYes.â
What is it?
âPop music.â
Pop music? Any artist in particular?
âYes. Lady Gaga.â
Why Lady Gaga?
âBecause if you look at the lyrics of her songs, they are meaningful, liberating, and they set you free every time you hear her songs. I can hear her songs a thousand times, and I cannot be tired ever. I watch her videos, concerts, and DVDs, and I am more happy than before. I think sheâs a great artist, and she doesnât realize it. Maybe she thinks sheâs only doing music, but sheâs not. I can be thankful to her because itâs good to have someone who doesnât know you and is doing a lot for you, and doesnât even know it, doing a thing that is natural for herâsinging, I mean. Itâs something that can make your bad thoughts go away. I can be thankful to her for that. Music, in general, every kind of music, can set you free, and you can be more confident with your new life and situation.â
Do you think music can help you connect to your feelings and emotions?
âYes, of course.â
Are you learning anything about yourself over this past month or so?
âYes. In my person, I can say that yes, maybe I have to be more patient, more strong, and I am learning that life is not easy. I am experiencing maybe not the worst, but the most difficult way to live a new life. I mean, I just graduated, Iâm away from my family, working a job away from my country, and living alone here. If I ever found a job in Italy, maybe it would be easier, even if it was far away from my family, because it would only be a one-hour flight from home. But, Iâm on the opposite side of the world and, if I want to go home, if I want to go tomorrow, I canât because itâs too expensive and you need more organization to do that. You have to think about when you want to go and, of course, you canât go when you want because you are working here, so you have your standard days so you canât just go away from work. I want this work and I donât want to mess up things because I want to go home. The time will come when I can go home. Itâs not too much time, itâs just five months. The first month just passed. I am staying for a year and I want to break this year into two, going back to Italy for Christmas. I can handle it; itâs not forever.â
Itâs a good way to look at it.
âYeah.â
It sounds like you will appreciate being back home even more so, having done this.
âYes, maybe I will miss something that I donât have here and I have every time there and I didnât realize it. Maybe I will look at something Iâm just not giving the right attention to. I think it will happen.â
Do you have a favorite song lyric from one of Lady Gagaâs songs that is meaningful to you?
âYes. Maybe at this time in this period, the song, Marry in the Night, because itâs difficult to accept your dark times and you just have to marry them. One lyric says âIâm a soldier to my own emptiness. I am a winner.â It gives you power. If Gaga did that or maybe she passed through it before me, maybe it concerned her, I donât know. I can translate these lyrics in my situation and just fight for that, and my darkness and my night. I will do it. Maybe, Iâll be more powerful than now.â
So, thereâs strength in embracing your darkness.
âYes. Not only be surrounded by the darkness, but accept it and make your own light if you accept it. I think you have to find your own light inside and fight back this darkness. Itâs not a darkness . . . Iâm speaking like itâs a bad thing, but itâs a different thing that scares me. I want to fight back and become a winner, and be more confident the next time I come to the USA about the life here and everything. Now, I am looking because Iâm surrounded by feelings, and itâs not so bad at all. I have to discover things, yes, to improve myself.â
How has it felt to share these thoughts and feelings with me today?
âLiberating, yes.â
Do you think that by sharing these thoughts and feelings with me today, knowing that someone else may read or hear this, you could be bringing someone else some hope or inspiration?
âI hope for them, yes, and I am thankful if I can, yes. I hope.â
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What has been one of the most challenging things youâve experienced or are currently experiencing?
âI think, to date, probably coming out to my parents and family has been the most challenging thing for sure.
Tell me about that.
âI did it at age thirty-five and, in the back of my mind, I thought it would be scripted. I thought it would have a sit-down meeting, it would go as planned, and thatâs not how it happened at all. I was going through some issues in the gay community and, being very close to my parents, it sucked not to be able to call them and talk to them about it. I was driving down the Loop on the way back to work, and I had this overwhelming feeling, it was like I was on autopilot, and I just picked up the phone and let it fly. Leading up to that point, that was obviously something I thought about every day, living a double life, sort to speak, which is tough, especially when youâre close to your family.â
What kind of toll did that take on you, mentally and physically?
âIn retrospect, I wasnât living my authentic self. Part of that was corporate America, I wasnât happy. I had great relationships with friends, but personal relationships, dating-wise, it was kind of interesting because I was happy but, at the same time, I wasnât. I was living a duality.â
What do you think kept you in the closet for so long?
âFear. Everybody whoâs close to me and know my parents very well knew it wasnât going to be as big as I always made it out to be. Also, I think I had internal struggles with other things that prevented me as well.â
Like what?
âOther demons that were hiding in the closet with me. I was sexually abused as a child twice. The first time, I was three or four, and the second time, I was eleven. It was in a Boy Scout setting. The first time didnât resurface until the second time it happened, because I didnât understand what was going on the first time. I still think about it daily. Iâve always been asked the question if being sexually abused turned me gay. I donât believe that at all. I believe that youâre gay, itâs the way youâre born. Itâs a genetic thing. It certainly didnât help growing up that way. It was almost as if when I came out of the closet, I was born again and shed everything that I was holding onto in the past. Itâs helped. Itâs not like itâs gone, but I have a different relationship with it. Getting to know my demons versus keeping them in the closet, understanding them and developing a relationship with them.â
It sounds like itâs changed the dynamic of the relationship you have with your demons. Would you still consider them demons at this point, now that youâve accepted them?
âTheyâre more like life experiences. Demonizing your demons is still looking at them in a negative way (and it was a negative experience), but if you donât love your demons, youâre never going to fully embrace them because thatâs who you are. I am myself today because of the experiences Iâve had in the past, as is everyone else. Coming out to my parents was the hardest thing, but also the best thing. I tend to have duality in my life always.â
How so?
âI donât know if itâs being a Gemini, but thereâs always a duality to everything I do. Itâs not always black and white.â
How did the sexual abuse impact your childhood?
âI had an idyllic childhood growing up on a farm, great family, thereâs the duality again, but then I had issues with intimacy and touch. I still struggle with that today. Iâll never forget, I loved basketball growing up and my parents sent me to this basketball camp. Every year, Iâd be excited to go and the year after it happened the second time, I was there for two days and had to come home. Being intimate with coaches patting me on the back freaked me out. It was very uncomfortable. Thatâs the first time I personally realized the impact it was having. I joke that I went to Catholic school and learned about discrimination at a very young age, being non-Catholic in a Catholic school. That was kind of a blessing because I developed thick skin. I had to in order to protect myself in a Catholic school. That carried over into life. I would say the biggest impact it had was on intimacy. There was anger. I would bully kids. It was me lashing out with my anger. Thankfully, that went away. I would say, in retrospect, that was where that came from. That was during a time when everything was swept under the rug. We told the authorities, but it was kind of left at that, and it was never discussed again. I should have probably been in therapy immediately following.â
So, your parents knew?
âYeah. They knew about the second time. At that point, this was the most recent and most important, and it reopened the first time.â
Was it the same person?
âNo. The first time, it was a family friend and he was in his late teens, early twenties. I was very confused and didnât know what the heck was going on. Like I said, the second time was a boy scout leader, he continued doing it in the community, and finally he was caught at the Nazarene church doing it to a three-year-old.â
Wow. You mentioned anger and bullying your peers. Did you feel anger towards your assailant? Did you ever have to come to terms with looking at that and trying to find forgiveness or compassion?
âI didnât at the time, but in early adulthood in my twenties, I did. I was still dating women. I did question âis this the reason why I am the way I am, is this the reason I struggle with relationshipsâ? Yeah, that made me angry because I see everyone else living ânormal livesâ and I didnât have that. Once I came out of the closet to my parents, all the anger went away. I think that was the last step to owning my shit and loving my shit because we all have shit. That was the last step of recognizing my demons, getting to know my demons intimately, understanding them, and developing a relationship with them.â
It sounds like there was a level of shame for years around your demons, and through sharing them, and being accepted and embraced by the people closest to you, it kind of released that.
âIt did and itâs so fucked up because thereâs a level of guilt because you ask yourself did that really happen? You questionâalthough I can vividly remember itâbut you ask yourself âis that really bad?â Of course itâs bad, but your mind goes through that process. You compartmentalize it, which is another interesting thing. Thatâs why therapy probably would have been beneficial, to work through it with a professional.â
Did you ever feel that when you went to your parents, they had any sort of shame? Sometimes situations like that, depending on the kind of community you live in and the level of prestige or status your family might have, or how important that is to them.
âI think they dealt with it the best they knew how, which was not to deal with it. In my community, anything that was (I donât know that Iâd call it scandalous) hard or challenging wasnât really talked about, and a lot of that was the era and the time. In todayâs world, it would probably be completely different. I think a lot of that comes with technology and communication. Weâre all so interconnected now that people can hear other peopleâs stories, and thereâs a point of reference to go off of. I canât imagine a parent . . . whatâs your point of reference, unless it happened to you. Thatâs why I think what youâre doing is so important because itâs giving people a point of reference.â
Thank you. So, what was the relationship like with your parents? If they really didnât do anything, although you said that they reported it to the authorities.
âIâll never forget because I was eavesdropping on the phone call. They called the head scoutmaster and, whatâs even crazier, is this was affiliated with my church. I listened to the conversation and basically the head scoutmaster said âweâll look into it and blah, blah, blahâ and, honestly, after that, it kind of went away. There were other scouts that went through the same thing. I wasnât the only one. Obviously, the guy was a serious pedophile. I had peers who were going through the same thing but, again, we didnât talk about it. There was a lot of shame and guilt associated with it.â
The quality of your relationship with your parents during that time in your life, even before that, what was it like?
âItâs bizarre . . . it was great. Everything was ânormalâ and I guess, as humans, we have the ability to compartmentalize and lock something away, and thatâs when it starts festering.â
And, you never know when it comes out and it can be a whole series of things, not just that one thing that comes out.
âRight.â
It sounds like the second instance where it was happening triggered memories of the first, and then you talked about coming out at age thirty-five, and that also being a release in a way or an awakening of a new chapter. You also talked about dating women. What was it like having relationships with women, knowing that was not authentically who you were?
âAs bizarre as this sounds, it was normal because, again, I had zero point of reference of being gay, having grown up in a small town in West Texas. I had no peers who were gay, although there probably were, but they were in the same situation as I was. I knew the act of dating and being in a relationship with a girl was normal, but it didnât feel normal to me, if that makes sense. I felt like I was like everyone else by doing it, but I knew, in my heart of hearts, thatâs not who I was. It wasnât until my mid-to-late twenties that I started realizing I was not only affecting myself, but affecting someone elseâs life. That was a lot of personal growth for me, knowing that I could do that. I think through the process of being empathetic, Iâve developed a deep level of empathy for all. I think when I really started homing in on empathy is when I came to the realization that I can get married because Iâm supposed to, but thatâs not only going to affect me and my family, but itâs going to affect another family as well. I think that was a turning point for me that it was time to do this.â
Iâm guessing that it must have felt like the pressure was building as each year past and that secret remained, and it just gets harder and harder.
âHell yeah. Family holidays . . . I would dreadâgirlfriend, marriage, and itâs so nice not to have to deal with that ⊠so nice. I think too Iâm happy that weâre at a place that people can be who they are. There are still going to be assholes out there but, for the most part, weâre coming to a point in time where itâs okay to just be.â
Regardless of what your sexuality is, I think just being who you are in general and finding your identity and sharing it with the world in an authentic way is a courageous act and itâs also met with rejection, ridicule, and criticism. Itâs part of the recipe for anyone outside of the gay community as well.
âOnce I started to get to know and embrace my demons, everything else went away, my insecurities in general. Iâm completely happy with who I am and thereâs not anything and, sometimes I wonder if itâs to a fault because you canât go through life saying âI donât care,â because I do care. At the same time, what other people think of me, except for people that I care about, of course, I want them to have positive impressions and feelings towards me. For the most part, Iâm not going to let what people think of me affect my lifeâ
It sounds like what youâre saying is that it doesnât change the way that you value or perceive your self-worth, someoneâs ability to see that or define it, doesnât change the way that you define yourself as being worthy and of value.
âYes, right.â
Thatâs important because I think the society and culture that we live in today is self-hinged on otherâs approval of us, whether itâs through social media or through social interactions in public, itâs constant, almost being appraised by others and having that dictate who we are and how valuable we are as a human being.
âIf you think about it, that typically is not your authentic self. Youâre masking your demons and presenting an altered version of yourself to society by doing that. I think thatâs why authenticity resonates with me. I kind of feel thereâs a movement of authenticity and thatâs why you see it all the time, which is good, but I think thereâs a long way to go. You look at social media, and a lot of it is not authentic. At the same time, there are people that are yearning for authenticity and Iâm happy that Iâm seeing it more and more.â
Would you say that embracing vulnerability is a part of being authentic?
âYeah, definitely itâs a part of it. I think thatâs probably one of the hardest things for people to do. Itâs protectionism. When youâre vulnerable, youâre completely exposed and I think weâre taught not to be. Weâre taught to protect ourselves, but I think until you can become truly vulnerable, youâre not living your authentic life because thatâs a big part of it.â
Tell me about your teenage years, in school, youâve had this experience. Did you go to a special high school?
âNo, I went to public junior high and high school. Junior high was definitely awkward. Again, I didnât really feel like I fit in. I had a great experience in high school, and a lot of that was through sports. Playing sportsâthere was a sense of community and team. I had that commonality with people in sports, whereas in junior high, youâre awkward in junior high any way. But, holding on to that, that was tough. Junior high was tough. Itâs interesting because I would say that I would consider myself a bully when I was in Catholic school, and that was when being the only non-Catholic in a Catholic school, being different, and the fact that I felt different because I was gay and because of the sexual abuse. That was a triple whammy.â
Thatâs a lot of layers of separation.
âYeah. High school was what I would consider normal. I was happy in high school. I think Iâve been very fortunate that Iâve never really experienced deep depression. Thereâs sadness, but I think mine manifested in anger more than sadness.â
Would you say thatâs because anger is an easier emotion to feel or express, or because being a man thatâs more encouraged?
âI think environmentally speaking, growing up in West Texas, cowboys, farmers, macho, I think that it was probably my environment. You didnât see a lot of sadness. I really never saw a lot of sadness.â
Did you ever see your father cry?
âNo . . . maybe at his dadâs funeral, but it was brief. I saw my mom cry. I think that had something to do with it as well. I was angry . . . I was angry.â
Where did that anger lead you towards? Were you self-destructive? Were you hurtful towards other people?
âNo. I was never self-destructive. I was a verbal and emotional bully; it was never physical. I think sometimes I would pull away, isolation.â
Sometimes anger can help us through that because anger pushes people away. That anger discharges our pain.
âIâve also been fiercely independent and I think thatâs probably where it stems from. Again, some people say Iâm a social person, but I sometimes feel that Iâm a loner, as well. Sometimes, I find solace in being alone and reflective of my thoughts. Yeah, Iâve always been like that.â
So, you had kind of a normal junior high and high school experience. Did you go on to college and what does that look like?
âAgain, it was normal. I was in a fraternity. I was very active in student organizations and had good grades, which is remarkable because I had ADHD, which I didnât figure out until after college when I had my first job. Excessive partying, I donât think that was a manifestation of anger. I think it was a product of being in college, because your buddies were doing it as well. I think the biggest hang up Iâve had until coming out was being honest with myself about being gay. Itâs amazing the trajectory of my life once I owned it; it has completely changed.â
How so? What were some of the shifts that you saw?
âFrom a professional standpoint, I felt like I was a hamster in a wheel. Corporateâthatâs just not me. I really donât like structure. I donât follow rules very well. Itâs not like Iâm anti-follow rules. Itâs just that my mind doesnât see the value that other people see in following rules. You might wonder where that comes from. Overall, when you love yourself and youâre doing what you love, itâs just natural for the trajectory and overall quality of your life to improve. I think me coming out was directly related to that. I certainly wasnât doing what I wanted to do prior to real estate. Everything just kind of came to a head and I released it all. I opened the floodgates up. I didnât want to lie to my parents anymore. I didnât want to do corporate America anymore. I was done. I think that I was fortunate that I focused on positive avenues and career change. It very easily could have gone another way.â
Was that a scary time for you? It seems like a lot of change all at once, being honest about who you are and making a significant career change.
âYeah. It felt like somebody put me in a jar, put a top on it, started shaking it up, and then poured it out. It was scary, but exciting at the same time. It was at a point that I think had I not done that, I could have seen myself going a different direction pretty quickly, starting to rely on other things to numb what was going on. It was scary and exciting.â
Would you say that pain was a catalyst to some of these major changes in your life, or some degree of pain or discomfort?
âYeah. Yep. Around that time too, I had a friend whoâs a life coach, and I became interested in things like Deepak and spiritualism, and it really opened my eyes. I think in Western society, thereâs a roadmap that weâre given and expected to do. It takes a major event to realize tear that fuckinâ map up, throw it away. Seriously, throw that fuckinâ map away. Once I realized that, everything just kind of fell into place. There wasnât a map needed because my map was organic. Yeah . . . my path was organic.â
Did you practice any sort of faith through this time or during this time that youâre kind of moving through fear, going through change, and embracing courage?
âI was raised Methodist and I would find myself praying. I was praying to God, but it took me a while to realize that the God I was taught in school and in church was not the God I was praying to. Iâve always been interested in other religions. Growing up going to a Catholic school Monday through Friday and then going to a Protestant church on the weekendâthereâs a similar story, but there are a lot of differences. So, I was like âhey, why is it this way here and then on Sunday itâs this way?â And they say âweâre right, theyâre wrong.â It kind of opened my mind at a young age that thereâs a lot of hypocrisy in organized religion. Growing up where I did, friends and parents of the Church of Christ, they literally would say, âWe love you, Chris, but youâre going to go to hell if you donât convert.â Who says that? Youâre a Christian? We would sneak the liquor that they hid; they were closet drinkers. My spirituality has been a lifelong evolution that God is within yourself. Part of the beauty of realizing that is when you shed and become authentically yourself, thatâs when you realize that God is within you, whether or not you want to call it God. To me, studying religions, thereâs a lot of history, a lot of depth, and similarities, but itâs the action behind the religion that I have issue with. The different types of religionsâtheyâre all beautiful in their own way, but its people that make them that not so religious.â
Do you have any practices now that help guide you?
âYes. I do guided meditation, and meditating is praying. If everybody realized that weâre all doing the same thing, itâs all the same, I think there would be a lot less anger and violence in the world. I like to meditate. Meditation is challenging for me because of my ADHD, but then I realized to meditate, once you stop trying, it becomes meditation. Yeah, I try to meditate daily. Itâs a grounding practice that energizes me. Itâs like a power nap.â
What are some of the other practices or coping skills that you use when things get challenging or stressful?
âI exercise. Exercise has always been a great outlet. It wasnât until later that I realized I was coping, that exercise is my outlet. I guess thatâs not a bad one to use. Yeah . . . exercise, meditation, and I journal. I like reflecting my thoughts, and writing them down helps.â
You mentioned early on, when you had gone through those periods of abuse, that getting into therapy would have been helpful. Did you eventually get into therapy?
âWhen I moved to Houston, I briefly started going to a therapist and I found that we werenât discussing the trauma in my childhood, but discussing the trauma in my relationships. In retrospect, it stems from the trauma in my childhood. Thatâs not on the therapist, thatâs on me because I wasnât discussing it and how was he to know. Unless youâre ready to talk about it, itâs a waste of resources on both sides. I think for therapy to work, you have to let it all out. I briefly went to therapy, but I wasnât being 100 percent truthful. I was more concerned about this person and why it wasnât working versus my shit. I think I have come to a point in my life where I have to own my own shit. Thatâs part of growing up, but I think it took me a long time to grow up.â
Itâs much easier to notice someone elseâs shit and to point it out.
âItâs easier to deal with someone elseâs shit.â
Sometimes you donât realize until that person has moved on from your life and youâre still left with the same kind of shit youâre experiencing and itâs actually yours and not theirs.
âYep. Thatâs ego.â
Tell me about some of your relationships. Youâve had long-term relationships with women.
âYes, and this is something that I struggle withâintimacy because I think at a very young age, I associated it with sex. Sex and love were not in the same wheelhouse for me, and every relationship Iâve ever been in itâs been an issue. Thatâs one of the demons Iâm trying to get to know best, and really understand and embrace because itâs not only affecting me, but itâs affecting other people. You can look back itâs almost like clockwork the stages in a relationship that I go through. In the beginning, the sex is great because thereâs no love involved. Once feelings start developing, I push away. Itâs tough.â
Whatâs the fear there when love starts to be involved in that picture?
âI donât know, but I think itâs the little boy trying to protect himself. Every time emotions and feelings come into play, heâs protecting himself. He doesnât want to ever feel that way again. I would have to say that it is getting better for me, but itâs going to be something that Iâll always have to deal with. It will never, ever go away. Itâs impossible. Itâs a part of who I am. Itâs a part of my self and I think the fact that I realize that, itâs making the ability for me to move forward and deal with it easier, but it will always be there.â
Iâm sure he will always be there but, at some point you may come to a place where you can shift his role in the equation because Iâm sure that served you for a number of years to protect you, but itâs no longer serving you as an adult. I had a brief conversation in the car yesterday with my aunt while I was visiting, and she was talking about her own upbringing, feelings, and also having been abused. She said she had a pivotal moment with her healer or guide, who told her to invite the little girl to play instead, like youâre a child, itâs okay, just play, so that she could take the lead as an adult and integrate those aspects of herself because when youâve experienced trauma, they get kind of fragmented and that child whoâs had to create those defenses to survive, it continues to kind of rush in when thereâs a threat, or feels like a threat.
âWhatâs so bizarre to me is that how can love ever be a threat? How can you be in the process of falling in love and consider that a threat?â
If youâve been hurt, betrayed, abused, neglected, assaultedâall of those things impact your ability to trust and your willingness to be vulnerable, which can make you associate love with those things. Youâre allowing yourself to be hurt or taken advantage of, but on the other side of that, if you carry that armor and push away the very thing that youâre longing for, youâll continue to suffer and create that distance between what you want and where you are.
âYeah. Itâs just so crazy because the two things that I love, independently so much, but marrying them together . . . It shouldnât be that hard, but it is something that Iâve always struggled with, but I think recognizing it, acknowledging it, and becoming intimate with it is the first step in bringing those two things together.â
Yes. If you have the capacity to, what you were referring to as your demons, invite them in and get to know them well, the same is true for that little boy, leaving space for him, to join in as well.
âYes.â
What would you say to that little boy if you could as your adult self today, sit with him and offer him some message or consolation?
âJust let him know that itâs okay. Itâs going to be okay. Itâs difficult to put my mindset to where he was and, knowing myself as a little boy, would he listen to what Iâm telling him. Just tell him that itâs going to be okay. Hang in there. Itâs going to be okay.â
That little boy, as he was developing from those experiences, did he ever feel that he was responsible when it happened?
âYes. I have had these defining moments in my life, some of them great and some of them not so great. Iâll never forget, we were at my auntâs house, and my little nephew, who was three or four at the time, and my mom asked me to take him to the bathroom and help him. I was about thirteen, and this was still raw and fresh. I was in the bathroom helping him and my grandmother came in and said âstop doing that to himâ and I remember my body going cold and thinking âam I doing something wrong?â That had a profound, profound impact on intimacy. That had a profound impact on me. You wonder what happened to her. She had no idea what I was going through. So, what skeletons or demons were in her closet that caused her to react like that? I didnât recognize that until later as an adult. I was like âoh my God, am I doing something wrong?â Thereâs a degree of shame and you think since I was abused, am I going to do it to other children? I think abuse victims probably feel that thereâs a stigma. The reality is if that happened to you, thatâs the last thing that youâd ever want to do to somebody. Itâs amazing that collectively less than thirty minutes in time can have such a profound impact on someoneâs life.â
Yes, and that says a lot about every moment of our lives, especially when weâre in a position to make choices, all of these little microscopic and micro decisions that we make from moment to moment can really dictate.
âYou have the ability in sixty seconds to change somebodyâs life forever.â
It sounds like you were able to come to a place where you were able to look at what happened, to accept that it happened, and to decide to move forward, which I think is a part of the process of healing and forgiveness. Were you able to forgive your abuser?
âYeah. It took a long time and this is horrible, but the second one was killed in a tragic, car accident and I, honestly, found happiness in that, which is not the person I am today because I like to think that I have empathy for all. Iâve forgiven them both.â
In doing that, did you have to be curious about what had shaped them as an individual and maybe what they had experienced in their life?
âYeah. I donât know how that can be environmental, a learned behavior, because of all the abuse victims that are out there. There are so many abuse victims, I think that itâs a sickness. I think that it is a sickness and, people that do that, need help. Iâm not saying that they should be free, walking around in society, but that they need help. Locking somebody in a jail cell is not going to help them. They need to be supervised. Thereâs something going on that would cause somebody to do that. I think thereâs some kind of mental disorder. Itâs like a serial killer. Theyâre not doing it for fun. They may find fun in it, but thereâs a reason theyâre doing that and itâs probably something haywire in their brain causing them to do that. You would hope because if not, thereâs pure evil.â
You talked about getting to a place of authenticity in your life and part of that was loving yourself. What did that look like to love yourself and to practice that?
âFor me, loving myself was knowing myself, not judging myself, and accepting myself. Once I accepted myself, all the other things that are involved in loving myself just kind of fell in naturally. Loving the good and bad because we all have good and bad, and owning both the good and bad. This is not just about sexuality. If youâre not owning your bad traits, itâs the same as keeping them in the closet, pushing them right back there with all of the other skeletons. I truly believe that, as humans, we cannot heal until we accept and embrace, and then the healing process starts.â
Do you think itâs possible to heal from abuse and trauma?
âI do. Like I said, itâs never going to go away, but once you realize thatâs a part of who you are and you love yourself as a whole. Think about that, if you love yourself as a whole, thatâs a part of you. In doing that, youâre loving that part of you, as well. It might not be a pleasant part, but itâs a part nonetheless. I think we have the capacity to heal and love. You have to recognize and fully embrace the good and bad to do so, and it looks different for every person. There are similarities in healing, but itâs going to look different for every person.â
Iâm guessing that part of your healing right now is probably talking about this and sharing the story, knowing that somebody else whoâs experienced something similar or felt your emotions could benefit.
âYes. This is very therapeutic. Itâs telling your story and knowing that there are people with similar stories. They might not be dealing with it as you are, but the more that you put your story out there, maybe somebody can grasp on to how youâre dealing with it and provides them a level of solace that they wouldnât have had. Yes, talking about it is very therapeutic. Itâs important to do, but you have to be doing it in an authentic way. When I was going to therapy, I was telling him part truths, but I wasnât telling him the whole truth. Unless youâre telling your whole truth, there might be some benefit gain, but itâs a band aid. Itâs not embracing your truth.â
In imagining the next relationship you have, knowing that the second phase of your relationship is pushing away as things get more intimate and love comes into the picture, what skills do you hope youâll acquire and learn to not do that again, to not push it away?
âI donât know if there is a skill that I can acquire because itâs more of a feeling, and itâs communication, just making the person aware, âhey, this is likely going to happen, this is my past, and this is my storyâ and asking for patience. I think when the right person comes along, patience will be there. I donât think that that will ever change because thatâs a part of who I am, and thatâs a part of the process of me falling in love. Thatâs my story, and I think me embracing that and owning that, when the right person comes along, it will work.â
Have you been able to communicate that with past lovers?
âI have and, each relationship Iâm in, thereâs progress. All one can do is communicate.â
I think communication and patience is essential, and no judgment.
âThatâs the type of person you want to be with anyway.â
True.
âThis whole chapter of my life is kind of like a guiding light. Itâs kind of guided me to where Iâm at. I wouldnât be sitting here had it not happened. You kind of have to take your tragedies and turn them into a guiding light that leads you on your journey.â
Would that be your advice to somebody who was listening to or reading this that is struggling with accepting who they are and where theyâve been?
âYeah, open the door, introduce your demon, and have a conversation with it. Introduce your demons to everyone because they might have similar ones and thereâs nothing thatâs happened to any human being that they should be ashamed of ever because thatâs just a part of who they are. If youâre ashamed of that, you canât love yourself. You might partially love yourself, but youâre not going to fully love yourself.â
Shame is similar to cancer. It doesnât stay where it starts, it spreads into other areas and relationships.
âIt festers.â
What do you think is the antidote to shame?
âSeveral come to mind ⊠love, transparency, acceptance. I think light, finding your inner light, and letting it shine has the ability to wash away any shame that you have.â
Do you have a favorite quote, mantra, song lyric, or piece of advice that resonates with you that youâd like to share?
âYeah. Thereâs a Riba song, âOne Promise Too Late.â Iâve been listening to this song since I was a child, but didnât realize it until after I came out and started going through the problems in my relationships with intimacy this line she was singing in this song and I was singing to myself: Where were you when I could have loved you? Where were you when I gave my heart away? All my life Iâve been dreaming of you, but you came along one promise to late. Thatâs the progression in my relationships. When I finally get to that point where Iâm loving myself and accepting and embracing the intimacy, itâs usually too late. Itâs amazing how a song and the meaning of a song can change depending on where you are in your life.â
Absolutely. How has it felt to talk about these thoughts, feelings, and experiences with me today?
âIt feels amazing. I think every time I share this, itâs like Iâm shedding skin of the past and I become lighter. It makes me realize that Iâm okay, Iâm moving in the right direction, and Iâm not moving backwards. Iâm building my life based on my truth, and that to me is the most empowering thing to do. It doesnât matter what your life looks like, youâre living your truth and, whatever you build around it, is okay.â
Do you think itâs possible that sharing your story with me today could potentially inspire or give hope to somebody thatâs listening or reading this?
âIâd like to hope that it will. I think that it can only do good, thatâs the intention that I set, and hope that it does. When I listen to other peopleâs stories, heartaches, and hardships, I know that I find inspiration and comfort. So, yeah, I hope this does the same.â
Thank you.
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What has been one of the most challenging things youâve experienced or are currently experiencing?
âOne of the most challenging things that Iâve ever experienced was the death of my parents. I lost my dad when I was twenty-one. He wasnât always in my daily life, so it didnât hit me as hard, but he was an admirable person I would have liked to have gotten to know. He was in the Vietnam War, had a few Purple Hearts, met the president, and was one of their first-class snipers, but due to that, he had mental issues by the time I grew up. He had severe PTSD and dementia in his later life. My life was more like visitation with him and my sister, Sarah. As I got older and started realizing how to understand mental illness, when I was in high school, I visited him at the nursing home where he was. It was kind of expected after a while. Just watching the mind deteriorate through dementia was pretty hard. When he passed, what hurt most was wishing I got to know him more and wishing he knew the person I would become.
âItâs going to be a year now, I was twenty-three years old, in August, my mom passed away. She was the most loving, happy, social female Iâve ever known, but she struggled with alcoholism in the closet (I would say). She wouldnât really show it much, but if you knew, you knew. I think she just had too much love to give and that made her really sad, and she always said that her soulmate was my father. Although they never really worked out, they still had a strong relationship, and all of her relationships since him never really panned out. They were like the Bonnie and Clyde of their era. He was African American and she was white, so they hid their relationship from their parents growing up, and dealt with all the race issues in the community by raising my sister and me. One story I remember my mom told me was when she woke up and the lawn was on fire in North Haven because the neighbors didnât like that they were together. Crazy things like that. I think my dadâs dead really affected my mom.
âNow that theyâre both not here, I think my challenge is being the person that I want to be without parental guidance underneath me, telling me âkeep going, you got it, keep pushing, youâre meant to be something great,â all those things your parents tell you. You can hear it from your boyfriend or your best friend, but itâs not the same. So I think thatâs the challenge Iâm forever going to cope with, to be where I feel like I need to be, but not have that support underneath you.â
How did you lose your mother?
âIt was kind of a freak accident. There are many things that went wrong that could have gone right. She actuallyâspooky, she was here. She was in a fight with her current boyfriend and she didnât want to have an argument or confrontation at my grandmotherâs house. So she walked and met him here. I guess they had been drinking; she had alcohol in her system. Her car was broken, so she was borrowing my uncleâs truck in which the gas gage was broken, so in order to know when you needed gas, you needed to know precisely how many miles you had driven since your last gas pump. She left this park and she was driving home on I-91, and the car broke down. She hit the guardrail after losing steering, her phone was deadâmy uncleâs truck didnât have a phone chargerâshe went to walk across the highway to get off exit 13, and she got hit.
âSo many things could have gone right. If she was in her own vehicle, she would have had a phone charger and she probably would have had gas. If she wasnât fighting with her boyfriend at the time, she wouldnât have been so upset. I live right off exit 13, so Iâm thinking âwas she trying to get to my house? Where was she going?â That was a really, really weird day because when she was messaging me about how emotionally upset she was, she was also just diagnosed with cancer. She was telling me how scared she was to go to chemo the next day. She didnât tell me or my sister that she had cancer for months. I guess she was diagnosed in March, but she had just opened up to the family about it. That day, hours before, she was telling me that she was so scared, praying to God, praying to my dad, and said she felt like she was going to die. It was really interesting foreshadowing that she was casting on her life, like really manifested that.
âThe whole day was weird. Iâm assuming when she was at the park, I was in the middle of a workout, and I cut my workout short because I was feeling so sick at the gym. I was avidly working out at that time, so it wasnât anything new. I was hydrated and it was my normal routine, but I was so sick. My friend said, âLetâs go for a drive,â and we went for a drive around Wallingford, but I told her to just bring me home because I didnât feel good. I texted my mom and told her I loved her and I was here for her. By the time of the sequence of events, she never got the message because I sent it around 10 pm and her passing was about 9:45 pm when the car accident happened. It was just a weird day all in all. To this day, I wonât upgrade my phone because I have our message thread there, and I canât let go of that in the event that the technology doesnât work in transferring all of my info.
âThat was pretty rough and now I worry, just like with anyone who passes away, that Iâll forget, and not that youâll forget someone you love. Every day, after her passing, I couldnât function, I was crying at home, on the way to work, every time I thought about her, when I stalked her Facebook page for the first time. Now, Iâm not crying anymore. I can cry, if Iâve had a couple of drinks and my emotions are in my face. You miss the routine so much at first, and then you get used to someone not being there because youâre used to your new routine. Itâs just like a breakup, and I think thatâs what kind of sucks. I still have my whole life to live, Iâm not even thirty years old. How do I begin to tell my kids about the wonderful people that my parents were and really transfer my memories onto them? Itâs really difficult.â
You mentioned that you kind of knew that you were losing your father, seeing that coming. Did he end up dying of dementia?
âYes. He had a few strokes within a short period of time. It was actually his dementia. Then he caught pneumonia. He had a weak system and was hospitalized. They let us know he didnât have much time, and he refused to have a tube put into his stomach to feed him and whatever he needed. That was what really told us he was going to go soon. So I drove home from college. I was here for a couple of days. We all sat by his bed, played music from the 1960s, and then waited for that call. The call came the next morning at 6 am to go see him because heâs passed. That was sad, but I really had to collect the memories I had of being a child. That one I didnât take so hard, even when we saw his body. My mom wanted to hold his hand. I donât know if itâs a disassociationâonce someone has passed, I know their soul isnât there anymore. Our souls are in our bodies just as a host, in my opinion, thatâs all it is. I canât hold your hand, youâre a cold body, but youâre gone.â
Itâs just your shell.
âYeah, thatâs all it is. With my mom, they had a closed casket, although the option of an open casket could have been there after they fixed her up at the morgue. I absolutely refused to see her because I thought there was just no point. My sister and I showed up late to the service, maybe twenty to thirty minutes, and gave my uncles and grandmother time to see her and do whatever they had to do. It was interesting because my mom thought she wasnât loved sometimes, but her service was from 6 to 10 pm, and I was shaking hands from 6 pm to 12 am. They had to start kicking people out and telling people they couldnât say their good-byes. The funeral home was packed; there were lines out the building, down the street. It was huge. If only she knew. People were telling me crazy stories about elementary school. It was such a shame.â
What was it like growing up with her? Iâm assuming you lived with her growing up.
âYes. When my mom and dad divorced, I was about seven, but I still vividly remember my childhood with them together in comparison to my sister. She doesnât really remember a lot and sheâs older than me, which is interesting. They divorced and then my mom remarried, and thatâs when I moved to Wallingford. My stepfather, Bob, is a great person, very reserved, but we grew up with him from when I was in fourth grade until I went to college. We had one room, thatâs where my boyfriends would come over with my family, my mom, my stepdad, and my sister. Just the four of us in one house, and it was great. My stepfather was very strict. Heâs Russian and the rules were unbelievable. It probably shaped me into how I am with my household rules today. My mom never remarried after she divorced my stepfather, although she had boyfriends. It was always my sister, me, and my mom; it was always the three of us. Regardless of her marrying my stepfather or whatever boyfriends she had dated, if they didnât like my sister and me, not that they wouldnât have, we were a package deal. She raised us, telling us âitâs the three of us or nothing.â It was a strong support. She put us through dance school. We were very close. She put us through all the sports we wanted to do. She came to all the family meetings and conferences. Any time she would see somebody in the community, she would say âthese are my daughters.â We were always with her. When I went to college, she came up nearly twice a month or would constantly pick me up from Albany, New York, two and a half hours away, just to drive me back down so I could spend the weekend with my boyfriend in Connecticut, and then drive me back and forth to and from Albany on Sunday. I feel so bad now that I look back because she was always going to Albany. She was awesome.
âAs I grew older, I was able to open my eyes and see that she was hurting inside and realized she was not the happy person I thought she was when I was a child. Itâs really hard, especially when itâs your parent. My uncles would tell me, âShay, sheâs always been this way.â She wasnât depressed in a way where she would stay in bed all day or find an addiction, it wasnât really like that. She was really social and smiley, and everyone loved her who met her. Towards her passing, she would cry every day. It was so sad.
âAfter she divorced my stepfather, that was right when I went to college, in 2012. In 2014, she started dating this new guy, and he was pretty cool. He really loved Kyle, the guy Iâm dating now. My mom and her boyfriend got a house together in West Haven, and I lived there for a couple of years. It was another great family dynamic, but then their relationship took a turn for the worse because there were a lot of trust issues. He was pretty promiscuous. There was a lot of devious behavior, manipulation, lies, and no trust. That really broke my mom down, then my father ended up passing through all of this. Not knowing who she could trust and who was there for her was really the butterfly effect for her for her future relationships. She only dated one person after that West Haven relationship, and there was no trust anywhere to be found. She didnât trust herself, and her self-esteem was down. She would cry every day, and it got to a point where I was life coaching my mom so often. I would be the one to raise her and give her the confidence she needed, because I was in a pretty stable position and she wasnât. Not that I donât believe it, but when people say âtheyâre in a better place now, blah, blah, blah,â I hope she is, because she was pretty upset and miserable at the end of her days. Itâs so sad when you see someone so sad. You want to help, but you canât help them. You want to pick them right up, but everyone has their own demons. Itâs rough when your child sees that in a parent. Thatâs probably why Iâm working in mental health.â
It's inspired you in some ways to move towards a career path or lifeâs purpose.
âYeah. I think it sparked when I started learning more about my father. I still would like to work with the Department of Veterans Affairs because all of the mental health systems are broken. Even if it comes down to just being that one conversation a day that makes someone smile, put off whatever their plans are for another day, whether itâs harming themselves, suicidal ideation, or one more depressive thought, thatâs all I want to be here for. It just comes so effortlessly when you approach people, have a conversation, and share a couple of laughs and smiles. It doesnât have to be so much pressure, itâs just be you.â
Where do you think your motherâs sadness stemmed from? Do you know anything about her childhood?
âI was predominantly raised on my motherâs side, so I know all about her childhood. She grew up a couple of houses down from this park. She was born in New Haven and, when she was seven, they moved here and then her whole life was here. She has three brothers, my three uncles, who are such strong figures in my life, between helping me with my car or whatever needs to be done. Theyâre there for my sister and me. Her parents, my grandmother is Italian and my grandfather is Irish. It was an interesting household, but it was a lot of love. I still hear all of the stories about their childhood, and my mom was definitely a daddyâs girl, seeing as she didnât have any sisters and it was all brothers. My mom and grandfather had a really, really strong connection all through growing up. Unfortunately, my grandfather passed away in 2004, and I think that was really the trigger for my mom. I really think so, because thatâs when she married my stepfather in 2004, when I was in fourth grade. She was able to put together this beautiful video. She hired this videographer who put home video clips together and then for their wedding they had a projector come down and played this video for the wedding audience. It was so beautiful because he had passed just months prior. She had even considered moving her wedding date so that he could be there. I really think that was the trigger, because all the years after, she always talked to her dad: âHey, Dad, Iâm here; Iâm struggling.â Any pennies she would pick up from the ground she said were pennies from heaven. She really still held him so close. My uncles arenât as open-minded with spirituality, so they would probably call her crazy, but she had a connection with him; she really did. Itâs the people who donât understand who can pass judgment unless you really understand someone who can open up spiritually, and that was my mom. She wasnât too spiritual with crystals and all that stuff, but she felt when someone was around. She was really guided by the messages from her high power, like my grandfather, even when my father passed away.â
Tell me about the grieving process that you mentioned, that period when you got the news about your mother and you were crying and had a hard time functioning. What has that journey through grief looked and felt like for you?
âI would mainly always talk to my mom when I was driving to work. Sheâd be on the way to work, Iâd be on the way to work, Iâd give her a quick call, and weâd laugh or whatever. Or there were those good morning text messages in the group chat with my sister and me. After she passed, it was really hard to get out of bed and I knew that I had to go to work, and it would be a condition to call or talk to her before I start my day. There have been many times before parking on Edgewood, I would have to fix my make-up because I had been crying on my way to work because she wasnât there. That slowed down a little and now I can get my thoughts together without being too emotional, but then thereâs always something that hits me. It wasnât up until recently that I was thinking of her and wanted to go on her Facebook and find a picture of her that I had, and I was sitting at work, I was so thankful that I was alone because I could not stop the tears from falling out of my eyes. It was so hard. I had to shut the office door and do my thing because they wouldnât stop. It wasnât memories rushing through my head. I couldnât even scroll. I had to put my phone down, as my emotions were there and demanded to be found, and I had to let it happen.
âIt was rough at first getting back into my social life because my mom was a mom to all my friends. She was always there. We have group pictures with my friends and my mom in the middle. If we would go out to a bar or something with my mom and uncles, I would tell all my friends to come. We were always all together, and they loved her. She was the mom they never had. Even growing up in Wallingford with my neighborhood friends, my mom would always be the one to bring out snacks or tell them to come in because it was cold. Iâve had friends for over fifteen years who have known her because Iâve been so close with them. Entering my social life after her passing was hard because mainly if itâs a weekend, I would have a couple of drinks and once the alcohol is in my system, one thought goes through my head, and I would be crying in the kitchen or locking myself in the bathroom. It was always dependent on how much I had to drink, but it was pretty hard putting on a face of being happy and socializing because I felt so empty. Nothing else mattered. But life is for the living, and you have to move on.
âAnother really hard part of the grieving process was when we lived in West Haven, we got a puppy. We got two, but one of them was my sisterâs. But this one was a Labrador retriever, and we got him as a little baby. I watched him grow into the dog he is now. After she broke up with the boyfriend in West Haven, she kept the dog. When she broke-up with him, she ended up getting an apartment and, whatever she was doing, the dog was by her side, 24/7. She brought him to my grandmaâs and she brought him to my house where my dogs would be mad that there was another dog there. She brought him to the gas station. She brought him everywhere. He was this big, white and golden retriever, he might be a Labrador. He was really obedient, such a cuddler, and a very, very, very good dog. He was in the car when she pulled the car over and he watched her get hit by the car. When we got the call, or my uncles got the call or whatever, the police came to the scene, and animal control came and brought him to the pound.
âThe next day, my only concern was to get this dog out of the pound. I ended up getting him out of the pound. It was pretty hard for me because my current boyfriend has a dog, and we lived with my sister, Sarah, and she had a dog. Sarah recently moved out. We had two dogs, Sarah and I both worked full-time jobs, and Kyle didnât want to take in a third dog, especially if Sarah and I were never home. Going through everything I had with my mom, this is within a couple of weeks, my biggest problem was what do I do with this dog because I want to keep the dog. He was my momâs and Iâve known the dog since he was a puppy. I lived with him for years. He was with my mom, every day, all day. Now, if my current boyfriend doesnât want the dog, do I care? Should I move out and get my own apartment with the dog? Then, that brings in finances. Can I afford my own apartment? Can I afford the dog? Is it right for the dog to be in a cage all day when Iâm working? That was actually the most difficult part of the grieving process, because I didnât know what to do with this sweet animal who just lost my mom, whoâs known me for years, and really to evaluate and everything came to making a decision. A decision needed to be made about everything. Am I breaking up with my boyfriend? Am I moving out? Am I taking this dog? Am I giving the dog away? What would mom want? What do I do with her things? What are we doing with her apartment? When are we packing this up? Where are we bringing it?
âAll of those decisions to make between my sister and me because we donât have a dad. Thankfully, my uncles helped us out with everything. They were able to pay for the funeral and really help us out with the finances. Everywhere you turned, there was a decision that had to be made, and Iâm young. I didnât have to go through all that with my dad because my mom was there. They divorced a while ago and his property and stuff wasnât as hard because we werenât so connected and intertwined. I was eating, living, breathing, and sleeping my mom. She was, and still is, my life. The detachment was hard. We ended up giving the dog to a distant family member and I still see him monthly. Once a month, I give him his flea and tick medicine because he gets a rash if he gets fleas. Sheâs a stay-at-home mom because she has three kids, a beautiful house, a yard, and heâs happy over there. That really wasnât easy.
âHere I am today and August 15th will make a year. Iâm doing better and the grieving is not as intense and not as demanding as it used to be, but I think about her all the time. I wonder if she hears me when Iâm calling, what happens after death, maybe itâs a comfort that we humans find, saying âmaybe they are listening,â but maybe thatâs just a comfort we need.â
You touched upon something really important that often people who are experiencing grief donât touch upon: the dynamics through this period of emotional grieving and loss, this burden and responsibility of making decisions and having to participate and function. From some people that Iâve spoken to about this, itâs almost like your mental state switches to autopilot and you delay emotional feelings and processing to get through the decision-making process, to go through the motions, to appease everyone else around you whoâs grieving and offering condolences and, after that subsides, comes in the real emotional weight of the actual loss. Did you experience an influx of support and condolences, and did that eventually subside, and how did that feel?
âWhether in person, social media, or whatever the interactions might have been, I think the majority of people who wanted to say something were the ones who attended her service. That was a smack in the face, everyone at once, and it was really hard to take in. If it was social media, and I said âthinking of youâ or something sweet, I would get âmy heart is still with youâ and the support from people I really never spoke to, even in high school. My mom would bring us together, whether we hung out or not, âyou lost your momâmy heart is with youâ kind of thing. Friends I wouldnât see for a long time, then I would see them, and the first thing they would say is âhey, Iâm real sorry about your mom,â that whole thing. That really calmed down as the months went on and then it was a thing of the past.
âI still feel I have the support, and I think thatâs really the bond I have with Kyle. After my father passed away, when I was 21, the next year, Kyleâs father passed away. Kyle and his father, Tim, were the way I was with my mom. They grew up together. Kyle was his only son; he has all sisters. It was one of the strongest father-son relationships Iâve seen in my life, and then he got sick and passed away. Kyle was there to support me with my fatherâs death and then his father died within the year, so I was there helping him with that, and then my mom died. That support and bond that I have with Kyleâwe went through some trauma together, and it was the same trauma. We lost our parents, and now I donât have any and his mom isnât too stable right now. We really have support for each other because itâs a shared understanding. I think that my cousins and I and my sister weâve gotten closer. Even with my uncles, in a situation like death, I think a person matures a lot, depending on the age.â
It changes you, definitely.
âYes, definitely. I still really feel the support from everyone around me, especially the ones who knew her. That way itâs not me describing her to the best of my ability because Iâm never going to get it right. You just had to know her, and then you know what I mean. I never feel thereâs a lack of support, but it definitely dwindled as time went on. I think thatâs the same situation, unless youâre famous like Martin Luther King or Michael Jackson, but time is going to go on. When forty years go by, there are going to be new problems that arise or whatever the case may be, but I think itâs just living in the memory.â
What has gotten you through some of the darker times during those periods? I know you mentioned your relationship with Kyle being a pillar in that process. What has given you hope, a scrap of light, or motivation to keep going when you felt overwhelmed?
âHmm. Thatâs a good question. Honestly, I think it might be my thoughts and personality. My perception of life is âit is what it is.â My uncle told me that life is for the living, and that really stuck with me. Life has to go on and I donât think that Iâve gone through really depressive symptoms because everyone deals with it differently. I could have easily still been in bed, taking Xanax, and trying to figure out how to ease my anxiety. I really think itâs a mind over matter situation. Just knowing that I can talk to whoever I need to or support someone that isnât doing so well with it. Now that itâs hitting the summer holiday, July 4th, and the one-year anniversary, my grandmotherâs not doing so well. Sheâs having panic attacks and anxiety, and her doctors are putting her on all these medications. Iâm telling her to try CBD oil, something more natural. She has identified one of her triggers as my mom no longer being here. She was her only daughter. Never mind losing your parent, but a parent that loses a child; thatâs hard, especially because you donât want your kids to die before you. Thatâs not the way the circle of life should work. I think supporting others that need support has really helped me get me through my dark times.
âWhen my sister would text me âI miss Mom,â I would say âletâs talk about her;â never mind just âme too.â Whether we were talking or texting, I would ask her whatâs your favorite memory? or what were you thinking about? Or, Iâd say âremember this timeâ; and weâd laugh. Or, Iâd say âthis reminds me of mom when she âŠ.â When Iâm thinking about her, Iâll tell whoever Iâm with that Iâm thinking about my mother right now, and then share a memory or two, smile, and carry on or cry if I need to cry. I do not suppress the emotion, but do tell myself that I need to keep moving forward. My mom would always tell me that she was put on this earth to put me and Sarah on this earth. She would say âI was born to raise you girls and to develop you into the strong individuals that you are, and you need to do that; thatâs your life-fulfilling prophecy.â Just listening to her, moving on, and trying to figure out what Iâm supposed to be and where Iâm supposed to be. I guess I have some peace of mind, thinking that sheâs still somewhere listening to me, even if I canât find a sign or whatever. I think that really helps me in my dark times.â
It sounds like a few things stood out from what you just said. One was feeling your way through it, not trying to repress or medicate it, but to actually feel your way through the emotions and honor them. The other was empathy. Empathizing with others who are going through something similar kind of gets you outside of yourself and you recognize that youâre not alone, and thatâs very healing. The other thing is it sounds like that you absorbed a lot of her energy and everything that she instilled in you, even if you donât see a trace of her outside of yourself, inside of you she exists.
âI hope. She was a really, really strong part of my life. I lived to make her laugh and vice versa. I would hope that for my kids one day, to teach them the positive views on life, how to rise up when youâre down, how to treat others, and how to keep smiling. My mom really helped me through college papers, and that was a really hard time for me. Showing your kid how to push forward, even though in that moment and what youâre going through seems like youâre going to die, the worse moment ever. My mom would tell me âShay, look youâre already in your junior year of college, you can get through this paper. You can write this 30-page paper on Neanderthals, itâs fine.â I think itâs the optimism that she always provided for me to keep moving forward. I want to instill that in, honestly, anyone, even my clients at work. I tell them - look at how far youâve come, keep pushing forward, youâre talented in many ways, youâve touched the lives around you, people care about you, and you owe that to yourself. Maybe I got that from my mom.â
What has this journey of loss, grief, and resilience taught you about yourself or life?
âI think that itâs taught me that life is going to always change, even when youâre very comfortable where you are. Anything unexpected can happen, but self-care is important through these hard times, and thatâs how you grow. You kind of owe it to yourself to think about the situation over and over and over and over again because youâre probably going to be overthinking. Iâm thinking about when my first boyfriend in high school broke up with me. He broke my heart, really broke my heart. I was going through an identity crisis and a small amount of self- harm. I didnât know who I was or where I was. Looking back, if I had known that I was going to get my masterâs degree, I wouldnât be stressing that at sixteen. Thatâs growth. Thatâs life. Youâre going to replay the situation a million times in your head of what could have gone differently, what you could have done, and maybe the solution you thought would have been the perfect one at that moment didnât work out. Maybe in a few years from then, after youâve grown, youâll see that it was the best for you when you were young. I think life does have a plan. I think through trauma, change, and going through something that really hurts may bring you a couple of steps back, but you just have to trust the process, and thatâs pretty comforting.â
It sounds like faith in the process, if not some sort of higher power or energy, and also the courage to keep going, regardless of whether it feels or seems bad, but that thereâs potentially something beyond that, that you canât see yet or have access to, the process is going to justify your pain and suffering eventually?
âYes. Iâm sure if you look back from where you are now, there has to have been some traumatic thing youâve been through and felt that is the end all, this is it, rock, rock bottom. Thatâs what I would try to tell my mom, âyou donât know where youâre going to be next month, and this seems terrible right now, and itâs really hard for you.â When you were in first grade, your ABCs and writing the alphabet were probably really hard for you. It was hard for you for where you were at that time and look at how much youâve grown. You learned it, you accomplished it, and you conquered it. You can take something away every time you move forward, and you can use that to fight your next battle.â
I like that analogy, and I often use something similar. Iâm not a gamer myself, but in videogames, usually you have to get to the end of whatever phase it is or whatever kind of level it is and conquer something to acquire a tool or weapon thatâs going to be useful in the next level. I think life is like that as well. If you donât conquer whatever that thing is and get that tool, you have to go back to the beginning and try again to get that because itâs almost like a key that unlocks the door to more knowledge, more capability, and more empowerment.
âI think you can easily get discouraged when youâre making the same mistakes over and over and over again because you havenât learned that lesson or you werenât able to figure out why youâre making the same mistake over and over again. If you keep trying and understand more or take new information per time you made the mistake, then youâre probably able to gather all of the information that you can to conquer that and move forward to learn why youâre making the same mistake, to make a different decision, and to go a different path.â
Yeah, and I think thatâs important because we have a culture or belief system that says mistakes are failure, and we become self-deprecating and super critical of ourselves to the point where weâre too afraid to take chances or risks. But every mistake is an opportunity for learning and growth, like âoh, that didnât work, let me try this instead.â If we can approach it like that, we may continue to move forward, rather than isolate ourselves in a little cage. So what would you have said to your younger self when she was struggling at some of those moments, having the wisdom and knowledge you have now?
âWhat would I have said to my younger self?â
If she was sitting beside you right now with her baggage, her wows, and limited perspective.
âThatâs creepy . . . Believe in your potential and do this for your future self. Itâs okay to cry and itâs okay to be confused and angry, but talk about it or believe that it will get better. Itâs not easy, but it becomes easier. Time after time after time, your life is worth living so keep pushing forward and you have all of these goals you want to achieve, so do that. Move forward with no regrets. Why youâre hurting is a piece of you. Donât hate the boyfriend that broke up with you in ninth grade because he cheated on you. Heâs taught you that youâre not going to take any bullshit from any other guy. Or, maybe youâre in a fight with your best friend, but this has taught you how to treat others or how to learn more about your best friend and why this person was so hurt, the words that you said, or the effect that you have on people. Try to learn something from each experience and keep pushing forward to be your better self.â
If your mother were here, sitting beside you, what would you want her to hear and know?
âThat I miss her and I hope sheâs here. I donât know . . . the guidance that sometimes I feel I donât have. When I feel lost, I hope sheâs here with me, and Iâm trying to communicate with her and show my parents that Iâm the person that they want in a daughter, all of the lessons that they taught me. I want to show them that I can do it and support my sister throughout the way, be kind to people, make a change in the world, and they really inspired me, and I hope theyâre together as soulmates.â
Do you think itâs possible that she received that message, on some level, that you sent?
âI think so. I have family members that have gone to mediums and they would say that my mom came through, but itâs always skeptical. My sister went to a medium and she didnât like what she heard and it wasnât what she expected. I think it depends on who you go to and the messages that you receive. Lately, Iâve learned a lot about synchronicities and then itâs easy to realize that things arenât just coincidences. Iâve had a couple of occasions when Iâve felt like I was just saying something out loud or was trying to talk to my mom about this one thing and then it unfolds right in front of me. I think itâs about being patient and not saying âMom, if youâre here, give me a sign,â and then sit in silence for forty-five minutes. I think itâs waiting, for example, when you fall asleep, she comes in your dreams and tells you the message that you want to hear, even if not her, but sheâs able to bring a thought into your dream that you wouldnât have thought of when you were conscious, busy with your everyday life. It could be anything. It could be me talking to my mom, vocalizing a problem that I have, then I fall asleep and think of something new because she told me. If it were me being conscious and she said, âShay, you could do thisâ and I would say âno thatâs not the best decisionâ because Iâm so indecisive and I wouldnât trust myself. But, if it were my mom coming to me in a dream telling me, maybe thatâs how I would trust it. I think on some level, she can hear the messages because we were so close and connected compared to reaching out to my dad, but I hope. I always think that this could be something that us humans use just to get us through, which isnât too depressing either. Whatever helps you cope and whatever helps you get by. It is what it is. If thatâs it, then so be it. Let it comfort me, thinking of my mom, hoping that sheâs here because Iâm not ready to let go. If she is here, thatâs great.
âI have a best friend, and weâve been friends since eighth grade, ever since I told her that she has the whitest teeth Iâve ever seen, we really kicked it off. She was really close with my mom, as well. We were recently at my grandmotherâs house because my grandmother wanted to clear all of my momâs things out before the fourth of July when we were having our family party. I left to go upstairs and Mya was in the basement, where the pool table is. Mya told me that something was there with her and she said that she told my mom, âSharon, donât show yourself right now, I canât, I canât take it, I canât take it.â I think Maya absorbs a lot of energy and it comes from her family tree; her mom is like that, as well. Theyâre 100 percent Polish. Theyâre always telling me about superstitions like âput something red on your suitcaseâ or âif someoneâs mean or showing you negative energy that you canât take, take their picture and put it facing a mirror so that it will go back to them.â All interesting kind of prophecies, per say. She said, âShay, Iâm hoping it was your mom, but I felt something when you left that basement, I was not alone.â Itâs small things, like maybe sheâs coming through to other people if I canât get to her or if my aura is too cloudy because I have too many conspiracies, I donât know if thatâs the right word, but you know what I mean.â
Yeah, if weâre all made of energy, right? Everything is energy. Energy canât be destroyed or recreated, so itâs possible that it kind of changes form, but itâs still here in some way. Over the years you spend with somebody, you absorb those memories, experiences, and energy and, if youâre part of their DNA, you share a cellular structure.
âYou can really tell. When I was looking at my dad when he was laying there after he passed, Iâll never forget the feeling . . . a shell was a perfect, perfect word to use for that. Itâs not just a dead body lying there. Itâs empty inside. Itâs completely empty. His soul must have gone somewhere because he left whatever it was laying in that bed.â
Yes, you used the word host, which I also like. A spirit, a soul, itâs a host, our bodies are kind of our vehicles, in a sense, to do our work while weâre here.
âI remember when Kyleâs dad passed away, and we were at Yale for days, every day, making sure that we didnât miss it. He was transferred over to Masonicare. He also passed away from pneumonia. He had esophageal cancer and was really deteriorating. When he passed away, we were in a dead sleep and my sisterâs room, before she moved out, because we live in an apartment complex, her room was right by where you park the cars, and our bedroom and our window faces the back yard. I guess Kyleâs sisters were banging on the door early in the morning and my sister heard them and let them in. I woke up by his sisterâs barging our door open, saying âKyle, Shay, you need to get up now, you need to go to the hospital.â This isnât a common thing, you wouldnât wake up like that.
âWhen my mom died, it was the same story. My sister came into my room early in the night and she said âShay, you need to meet me downstairs right now. I need you to come here, get your clothes on, and letâs go.â I was sleeping with Kyle so I got out of bed quietly. My uncles were there in the living room, and we sat on the couch and they said âyour mom passed away this morningâ and it was around 3 am. All I can think about was I was so mad at myself for not tidying up the living room. You know when you go to bed, you kind of want to tidy your house a little bit. My uncles are pretty clean and I look around my living room, and it was such a mess and my uncles had never been there before. I had thought âif I had just tidied up before bedâ I wouldnât be thinking this.
âLast night was the same situation, but not as upsetting. I was sleeping, my friends had gone out, Kyle included, and I stayed home with the puppy. All of a sudden, Iâm being woken up, thereâs two shadows in my room, one of which is my best friend, Mya, and I didnât know, and now I know, it was my friend, Megan, Kyle was still not home, and it was 2 am. I just saw their black figures. Mya was rubbing my foot and saying âShay, Shay, Shay, Shayâ and I say âWhat? Whatâs going on? How did you get in my house?â She said that she just wanted to say hi, she had been drinking, and she wanted to see me, she missed me, and wanted to say hi. I kicked them out and, as Iâm brushing my teeth this morning, I thought âwow, I havenât been woken up out of a dead sleep since the last two times and it was horrific news coming my way.â Wake up, wake up, you need to get up right now. It was so funny, because I thought about that this morning, and that was really interesting.â
Do you have a mantra, a quote, a song lyric, or something that someone has said to you that resonates with you that youâd like to share?
âHmmm. I donât know. I think âtrust the processâ is something I really hold onto, and someone shared that with me when I was really concerned about where I was moving with my career. It was an old associate I worked with at Foot Locker when I was a kid. I wasnât expecting to hold onto something like that, but now it really drives me sometimes. Thatâs definitely one of them. Iâm sure I have so many.â
When you tap into your motherâs voice and memory of her, is there a particular message or something thatâs resounding in your mind?
âYeah. I think about how she told me I was made to be a strong, powerful, influential person. One of our clients we currently have one time told me that I have the ability to move mountains. I think about that, and itâs such a powerful message. I think that being able to tell someone that or having someone hear that from you really reminds me of my mom. I think that is so powerful because it can be interpreted in so many different ways. I think thatâs something I like to deliver and pass on. Even telling it to yourselfâyou have the ability to move mountains, so you keep moving forward.â
For those who are reading or listening to this, who can relate to any number of thoughts, feelings, or experiences youâve expressed, what would you want them to take away from this sharing?
âI would want them to take away that life can really knock you upside-down, but you deserve to go through your emotions. I feel like itâs easy to be conditioned to say donât be angry, donât yell, donât scream, donât punch a wall, donât cry, youâre weak, especially to the males out there, but you are a human and deserve to go through your emotions, whether youâre male or female. If you want to drive to a field and scream, scream. If you want to be sad for four days, be sad for four days. If you want to cry, cry to your favorite song. But know that you deserve to be happy and you deserve to pick yourself back up. You have that ability, and do that for yourself. Allow yourself to be angry, but know that you will pick yourself back up, and itâs just as important as any of your emotions. Happiness, sadness, anger, frustration, confusionâyou deserve all of them. I feel people can get mad at themselves when theyâre confused or get mad at themselves when they canât stop crying. They think âIâm sad, Iâm supposed to be happy, I donât want to be around these people, Iâm sad, Iâm sad.â Itâs okay: be sad. You can be sad. You can 100 percent be sad, cry, not want to open up to people, or open up. You also deserve very much to be happy and to keep moving forward. I think you owe that to yourself, remember that, and pick yourself back up when itâs time.â
Thank you very much for saying that. I think more and more, in the culture that we live in, weâre receiving this messaging that thereâs a limited range of emotions that are cool to feel and are human. We are diagnosing, casting out, medicating, and censoring away the more difficult emotions that are also a part of the human experience that deserve just as much attention and honoring presence in our life as happiness and joy; the whole spectrum. Being an artist, you need both light and dark to create contrast and texture, interest and depth. If we were just to have light, happiness, and joy we would not have any comparison to appreciate those moments. Thereâs a whole range of human emotions.
âA whole range. You got to feel them. Youâre human.â
Yes. Thank you for saying that. How has it felt to share these thoughts, feelings, and experiences with me today?
âKind of like a weight lifted off my shoulders, I think. After something traumatic happens, itâs easy to keep it locked away, maybe in fear that you donât want to re-experience the emotions that you went through. Time goes on, time to forget, time to keep going. I donât want to feel that hurt and pain anymore, but I think the more that you share and allow yourself to revisit what you went through in the past, it opens for more healing and you can adapt and learn something more about yourself when you share it with others. Even just talking about it, even though the moment has passed; letâs talk about it. It was a significant part of your life that you went through and you were able to move forward, even if it may have taken a little while. I think sharing it today on this beautiful, hot, windy dayâit felt good. It felt good to talk about my mom and my dad. They are who I am and they were great people, really great people. I was brought up with a lot of love, a lot of love, and inspiration to be the best person I can be. Thank you for helping me realize that.â
Youâre welcome. Do you think itâs possible that by sharing your thoughts, experiences, and feelings with me today and knowing that this will reach a public audience, whether itâs through a book, a blog, or podcast, someone on the receiving end could benefit or gain hope or inspiration that theyâre not alone?
âYes. One hundred percent, people across all ages, including adolescents who donât have parents or maybe have parents who arenât supporting them or just not in their life. I hope that what someone can take away from this is believing in themselves, not overanalyzing all the relationships in their life and trying to help build a bridge or understand another person in your relationship as what it is. How you can make it grow, or how you can heal, or how you can come to peace with your hurting with relationships with other people, if thatâs the case, whether theyâve passed on or you want to improve the relationship. I think it starts in you; it really does. Loving yourself, believing in yourself, knowing that you have a purpose, and letting whatever it is grow. You know?â
Right on. Thank you.
âYouâre welcome.â
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What has been one of the most challenging things youâve experienced or are currently experiencing?
âI think it feels more challenging currently because Iâm focused on it with a new attention, different eyes, and an older brain. I think one of the most challenging things for me in all of life has been can I, meaning me, who I am, not pretending, no barriers, can I exist in this world safely? What I mean by that is can my authentic self, in its soft, kind, compassionate, and artistic way of being, just be without being ripped to fuckin shreds because it feels like thatâs all they want to do. You can feel it, the moment you leave the house, thereâs this sensation, just making twenty paces out of your apartment, that youâre too soft to be on the street right now. You need to rein it in, stop day dreaming, and get the fists ready. I think thatâs been a lifelong thing . . . finding ways, places, and communities where I can be myself and not get ripped to shreds.â
Tell me about some of your first times experiencing that?
âOh God, itâs everywhere, all day. Itâs super pervasive. Iâm not paranoid about it and I actually donât think about it, but these moments will arise and it will hit me. You go to school with purple hair, the teacher and your classmates canât fuckin wait to tell you how terrible, stupid, or ugly it is. You draw a picture, now Iâm thinking of children and adult figures, and literally someone is chomping at the fuckin bit to tell you you wonât make money as an artist, itâs a lousy past time, and whereâs your career. I think itâs at every turn we make. You go to wear a skirt, a shirt, color of shoes, fuckin choose a lipstick, theyâre the dumbest fuckin things. Itâs not that I blame the people who are doing the, weâll call it, hammering because I think people hammer for a lot of reasons. In fact, I would argue, I have no data to back it up, that the majority of people hammer because someone hammered them and theyâre really, really glad to see you breaking the mold and, at the same time, theyâre really, really trying to save you from the blow of the hammer because they know it already. I think when people say âis that what youâre going to wear?â they actually love it and they would love to live in a world where that is what youâre going to wear and youâre going to go out. When they say âis that what youâre going to wear?â itâs their fear, Iâm not saying this makes it acceptable, but their love for you is their fear for your life so they hammer you because if they do it, itâs better than a stranger in a movie doing it. So, thatâs how I feel about it.â
As you were saying that, I could also picture a parent or someone youâre romantically involved with saying âis that what youâre going to wear?â but also in a way thatâs going to reflect on them in some way and makes them feel uncomfortable.
âOr vulnerable to danger. Absolutely. Absolutely. Iâm 44 years old and Iâve learned these nuances that are in life that you wouldnât have seen before and you get compassionate. I stress to myself a lot is that in these moments, like you said theyâre worried about the vulnerability of themselves, theyâre still acting, Iâll call it, mal-aligned, but thereâs still such immense love there. I think it becomes tricky because you need to mind your boundaries because thatâs still not a kind of love you need, but to be able to still recognize that they care so much, but theyâre really frightened for your fuckin life. It counts for something, even though you have to put the boundary up that this isnât the kind of love I need. I used to be in a place where I felt that clearly they hated me, but now I think love is the backing, itâs ironic in a weird way, of some really wonderful things, Flowers in the Attic, toxic things. Itâs a weird paradox.â
For those who donât know, Flowers in the Attic is the story of a mother who is sick or dies, locks the children in the attic, and the grandmother slowly poisons them with arsenic, but they are able to escape and nearly die in the process. So, tell me a little bit about some of your experiences early on with trying to be who you are in a world that wants to confine you.
âI know it. Iâve learned something, which is nice. Iâve learned that I donât know if Iâm actually capable of being who I am not, and what I mean by that is I think people can go to work and âplay the role.â It might be a downfall for me because it seems more adaptable to be able to do that, but I just canât. I just canât. At some point, the stitches will rip and it will all explode, and Iâll say or do something. Itâs been nice to at least realize Iâm incapable of that. I wouldnât go work for the Catholic church because I clearly know itâs not a cultural fit for me, where I think some people could. They could work the mailroom at the Catholic church and actually be a Satanist, or whatever. Some people can do that, but I canât. I get called a bitch a lot, but what I think people mean is my incapability for pretenses.
âExperience wise, itâs been a little hard because when you canât fit in, it makes life hard so you go around trying to fit in and you realize you canât and, at the same time, I leave every time with myself intact. I donât fracture because I think that kind of behavior can be fracturing. Iâm pure as gold because it is what it is, take it or leave it. The flip side of that is when I do find something that fits, such as my relationships with my friends, I have an amazing, amazing group of friends; itâs a circle of about six people. Weâve literally curated our friendships with each other. I know thatâs a strange word to say, but I think a lot of us didnât have great family things going on. We had an idea that if religion is bunking a family up, you would think the family would choose the family over the religion, but thatâs not what happened and thatâs when all the problems come in. I feel thatâs an easy choice. If we were able to choose your family, and in my mind I believe you are, you can literally choose if the preacher up there is saying something and talking about your kid, fuck the preacher, Iâm going with my kid, but thatâs not a decision people make. We talked about choosing your family and what that would look like, and we all had similar visions. Each of us is so different, vibrant, we take up a lot of space, and yet nobody feels squished, nobody is silenced, and our values are the same. Any of them could call me at 3 am and, in fact, I would be pissed if I found out later something happened and they didnât call me at 3 am. Thatâs the kind of friendship.
âThis thing about where you fit and you can be your authentic self, I think you need to curate it. I think itâs a very deliberate curation. I think, this is me and Iâm not going to talk for anyone else, I have no problem saying âyouâre a no, these are the values I hold, this is what I need to be, this is what you need to be, and if this canât playout for your or I need to make myself smaller for you in any such way, youâre a no,â and I have no fuckin problem with that. Iâll tattoo it on your forehead âyou are a no,â you do not get the privilege of me in your life; if you ever change your mind about that, my table is wide open.â I wonât settle at all. Like I said, it makes the group small.
Quality versus quantity, right?
âI guess. Fantasy with a capital F with the politics we engage in and the community building we engage in, whole neighborhoods and streets that operate like this. The problem is that I donât see it happening on quite that a grand scale, maybe a community center, a church, or a school. I wish this kind of community building caught on larger scale. Itâs also the kind of community where, have you ever heard of the expression âif I had two pairs of shoes and you had none, I have one pair too manyâ? Is it communism? Not quite, itâs just not, it doesnât fit the mold.
âCorey, so we just reconnected and itâs been years and years and years. You have no groceries and youâre not sure how youâre going to make the week out. I have some, so youâre welcome to my some, but I also have this group of friends and Iâd be on the phone and, by the time you left here today, you wouldnât leave without enough groceries to get you through the week. What Iâm saying by that statement is that it is not okay with me that you, Corey Hudson, are without food. If you said I have no food and I said yeah, that blows. No, literally, I am not alright with Corey Hudson having no food. Can we build larger communities like that? Iâd like to. I feel like the best I can do is walk out the door, Iâm no priest, Iâm no saint, I can be the nicest person you ever met, and maybe if Iâm hungry or whatever, I can shred you to pieces where you stand and play in your blood. The best I can do is to walk out the door of my house and be attentive, aligned, in the now, in the moment, really in the moment, Iâm not regretting the past, Iâm trying my best not to stress over the future. Iâm here now, today, in this moment, ensure every pace I make throughout the day, each person I meet, every place I go, I do my best. In other words, to walk humbly by a homeless person and ask âwhen was the last time you ate something?â Three dollars buys a whole loaf of bread. You canât sit there and eat a whole loaf. If you at least get him that $3 loaf of bread, which Iâm not going to pretend that everybody has $3, some people donât even have that. If youâre able to do the $3, you get the loaf of bread, itâs something, and then you move on from that. Someone standing on the bus, you give them your seat. If I can move through these moments, sometimes Iâm successful and sometimes I fail miserably. âHey, you got a quarter?â âGo fuck off; Iâm tired, I just got a bill that I donât know how Iâm going to pay, donât ask me for nothing, nothing, I donât have it.â
âThereâs a game I like to call Steal from Peter to pay Paul, and I lost that game a couple of weeks ago and my electricity went off. I thought I could let it go longer, I gambled, and I lost. Sometimes I scramble and hustle. Thank God, Iâm a successful hustle, and it all worked out well. There was that day, I was holding that fuckin letter that itâs going to happen and I was just trying to come up with a game plan, having a cigarette on my balcony, and this dude asked me for a cigarette and I told him to go fuck himself, I didnât even have electricity, donât fuckin ask me for nothing, and he said âoh, Iâm sorryâ and went away. Within five minutes, I thought that didnât go well. But, for the most part, I try to do my best as I move through the world. Co-creator of this universe, they say, and I just try to create a world of my liking.
I think what youâre describing so eloquently is something I practice too, and I think itâs been how I move through any of my careers Iâve had, âto see a need, fill a need.â If you have the capacity to fill a need you see, donât wait for permission to do it, you just do it. That also requires boundaries, which I think ties into what you were saying about being hungry or you not having electricity and this snap reaction of fuck off, I canât help you when I canât even help myself, of knowing when we have a well that is overflowing and when giving would deprive us of our own very basic needs. I think thereâs something to be said for this mentality if we all could move through life with paying attention to what the needs are around us, what our own needs are and what we have, and if we could all give a little bit of something to each other, we would have a much richer, much more connected, kinder community. I think whether thatâs happening on a friendship community level like you described the six people, a church, a school, a town, or a neighborhood, it kind of radiates out, and we know thatâs what is missing in our society today with the one or two percent of the population.
âIt became so clear with the fire at Notre dame. So, oh my God, everybody said there were all these homeless people, we need health insurance, yadda yadda, and Notre dame happen and, within twenty-four hours, four billionaires came together and raised x billion dollars, they had it all along. Theyâre like the image of a dragon, licking the pile of gold that no one can fuckin touch.â
Yeah, but the pile of gold, I think we talked about this a little prior to the interview and you eluded to it a little bit in the interview, attaining the things you desire and that you think are really going to serve you and bring value, purpose, and meaning to your life, whether itâs a sense of security, your stuff, a relationship, a car, a house, a career, you find that when itâs just you with that stuff, it has no value. Itâs just greed and becomes a prison in a sense, like that dragon whoâs in a cave with his treasure, isolated, alone, miserable, and angry. Itâs when we share that it then has value, meaning, and it brings purpose to our lives.
âI had a really nice moment . . . as you know, Iâm starting a new job tomorrow, thatâs going to be amazing and Iâm going to do well. Thereâs a woman in this building, who lives down just a bit, and the neighbors have been gossiping, itâs a small community, she has been without electricity for a week or so. Iâm actually looking forward to my first paycheck because I think Iâm going to slide $300 under her door, unmarked, cash, and let her decide what to do with it, but I canât wait until that first paycheck because the longer I wait, the longer that sheâs in the dark. Iâm excited. I like to put, itâs literal this time, my money where my mouth is. I believe in these things I say and I do them. I donât want her to know that itâs me, I want a plain envelope, all twenties, under the door at 1:00am so I know sheâs sleeping. When she says, âsomeone put money under my door,â Iâll say, âhow weird, I gotta go to work.ââ
That leads me to something thatâs important in this idea of being kind, helpful, and seeing needs and filling needs, is compassion. I think, for instance you, having your experience of your electricity being shut off, you know what that feels like, you have empathy, you have compassion, you recognize when someone else is struggling and you know what that feels like, and if you have the capacity to help them, compassion moves you to take some action. I think that is a beautiful quality in much of humanity is that when some tragedy happens or when someoneâs chips are down, if we too can relate to that experience or empathize in some way with the suffering or pain of that, weâll step in. The problem is a lot of times we donât have to wait for a disaster to happen.
âOr relate.â
Yes, or relate to something.
âThereâs a lot happening, especially law wise, with trans things and abortion things. I donât know . . . Iâll never know what that decision-making process is like. And, Iâm also not trans, so Iâll never really know what itâs like to look down and feel like you donât fit with what you see. I donât fuckin have to. The thing is people who are experiencing those things are saying this is what I need. Iâm never going to fuckin have an abortion, but what do you need? Oh, I need this; fine, Iâm going to go in a booth and fuckin vote for this. Youâve literally told me what you need, I donât fuckin need to understand. I donât need to wrap my mind around anything; itâs a no brainer. I think itâs interesting because we can both act, like you said, weâve both lived and experienced a thing, but to be able to act without is equally important.â
Yes, because on any level, weâre all human beings and we all have very basic needs and whether the experiences are the same or not, the emotions, the oppression, and the repression is all the same. So, how does this tie into authenticity, which is what you talked about, finding the space where itâs safe?
âItâs funny that you bring that up, I wouldnât have thought of it. Things werenât so hot in my childhood, and they really werenât so hot into my twenties with family and stuff like that, cultivating healthy relationships, etc. I would say thereâs a lot of narratives. Some I had taken on from outside and some I had created myself, of who I am that were really untrue. It was brought to my attention, thank goodness, because I have good friends, from people outside of myself, that they werenât true. The narrative I think I had made, and probably with good reason, I mean you donât do things without good reason, even though itâs not a good thing to do, thereâs still a reason, was that I was mean. I would cut your throat. Iâll destroy you. I will literally rip you from limb to limb. Donât mess with me. I have claws. Thereâs that narrative because when people do mess with you, they actually get that. From their perspective, you are a fuckin bitch because youâre being nasty, but the things my friend would say and bring to my attention, despite not wanting to, because thatâs how shadow work works, we donât want to acknowledge this thing, that fuckin bitches donât slide $300 under their neighborâs door. Fuckin cunts donât buy groceries for the homeless. I say, âno, no, no, Iâm mean and nastyâ, but Iâm not actually nasty; Iâm actually quite gooey.
âWhen it comes to authenticity, in a weird way, it comes full circle, knowing that Iâm gooey, it comes around to can my gooey exist in this world? I think it does, it does really well, and it does for those who want it to. Either youâre going to get the gooey, and gooey is good, or youâre not, and thatâs really unfortunate because gooey is good. In the process of learning who I really am and not needing the armor, Iâm not saying to walk through the world completely fuckin naĂŻve, you donât need to be so armored up like youâre untouchable. In learning how to do that tightrope walk, I tried to think of a metaphor or an analogy, but I couldnât, but walking through the world like I had two hands behind my back and, depending on what presents itself to me, itâs either going to be flowers or an axe. I hope itâs flowers. That is how I get to be authentic. So far, so good.
Is authenticity dependent upon someone elseâs capacity to receive you?
âNo, well, I think authenticity is paradoxical, in the sense that I think when alone, thereâs something authentic already there, thereâs a core, a part, a thing. Now weâre getting real deep into the psychology or anthropology of it. Can we discount our own consciousness as the other? I am authentic in relationship to someone, but Iâm authentic in relationship to myself, which I just thought of because I was initially going to say even alone, thereâs a core there and then I think thereâs also a piece thatâs relational. I think weâre also relating to ourselves. I would argue that authenticity, I would even say existence, let alone authenticity, requires relation.â
You alluded to some challenges in your early years. Would you mind elaborating on those a little bit?
âI can tie it in, in the sense that for some reason my family, single mom and brothers, were afraid of me. What I mean by thatâI canât get at the why, Iâll never know the why and Iâve long since stopped pretending to read peopleâs minds. Thatâs a very good lesson to learn in real life. If you come home and you say she said hello like this, do you think sheâs mad? Just fuckin stop, she just said hello; hello is all the data you have, so just stop, Madame Cleo stop trying to read minds. So, Iâll never get at the why, and we donât have a relationship now to ask them. They were afraid of me, by that I mean, I might mean a lot of things. Being a child of my decade, was it so drastically different? It was the electronic age coming and I was the first one in the family to have a computer as a child. Was I that foreign to them? Was the thinking processes of my decade so drastically different that they couldnât relate? There are a million different avenues I could go down. I kind of always, like I said I have a hard time pretending to be something Iâm not . . . I just am. Theyâd find me up a tree and Iâd have some fuckin shit, brambles on my head, was it all too much? Thereâs a lot connections and Iâm going to go back to something I said earlier, you choose. If I had a kid and thatâs what my kid wanted to do and as long as no oneâs getting hurt, including themselves, then I love it, I just love it because theyâre my kid. No further analysis of that is required.
âI think we talked about it, but it became the thing of get that off your head, get down here, why are you behaving like that, why are you painting, painting is for girls, itâs a girl color, why do you like it? I couldnât just be. A very unfortunate thing can happen, when you do that to a kid, it doesnât get out and gets repressed, but you can make a new kid, and Iâm not saying itâs a good one, you can brandish a new kid with all that locked in this little box. Iâm thankful because my family was my first lesson in it doesnât matter what people say, as long as itâs what you know. Itâs unfortunate that I had to learn that from my family. Years later, being gay and whatever, it sure as fuck came in useful. Someone would say âhey, faggotâ and Iâd say, âPlease, thatâs all you fuckin got.â It is unfortunate because you shouldnât learn how to let abuse roll off like duck feathers from your mom. Lesson learned, it was good. So, I guess thatâs what I mean when I say things werenât good.
âI can remember between ages ten and fifteen, I started to plot my exit plan because I realized this is not where I wanted to be and looked around and realized other peopleâs lives didnât look like mine and I knew I had to go, and I went.â
Where did you end up?
âI left home really early, probably too early. Iâm in my forties now, so when I look at anybody under the age of twenty-two, I call them kids; theyâll probably get mad. I canât believe I left. I left home at sixteen the first time for about four years. I was still in high school at the time and homeless. I was outside Stop & Shop, the people were really nice because I was young, Iâm white presenting. It was a different era, the police never harassed me, but also I was never disrespectful. Iâm well-read and well mannered. I was quiet, with a sign, theyâre either going to throw money in the bucket or not. During the day, I went to school and at night, I did that.
âIt was a different time. Do you know those doors to the cellars, that open double? We have those in New England, and if you try a few of them, youâll find theyâll open, maybe not in 2019. Garages were also easy to open. I could always find a place to sleep in someoneâs basement or garage, and always made sure to get out and go to school in the morning.
âI met a very colorful group of folks. It was a flophouse with lots of drugs, but their hearts were in a good place, and that has to count for something. I think thatâs where it began, truth be told, now that I look back because anybody who was flopping there, you were not allowed to go hungry or unclothed. It was just not allowed. I think it was my first taste, during my informative years, of what it looks like to take care of each other.â
So, youâre sixteen, in high school, youâre homeless, but found someplace to flop.
âYes, finally found a place to flop. But, an interesting story, because itâs what popped into my head. I didnât team up with anybody, and maybe I should have. It probably would have been smarter. I was on my own, making things happen. One night, the blackest of nights, I opened the double doors, went down into someoneâs basement, and I usually liked to camp out right near the doors so that if I heard sounds and someone was coming, I could get out quickly. When I went down there, I found someone else there. It was a girl and she was down there, and it took me a moment to realize this wasnât the person of the house. When I entered a house, I expected the people in it were supposed to be there except for me, so it was strange to find this other person, and she had the same thing going. We didnât make a team. We didnât become a fabulous duo. We just had the one night, but it was a nice night.
âI found this flophouse and I came of age in it. I finally got a real job and worked at McDonaldâs because thatâs about all I could do at my age. And then I had to learn how to use money because coming from a house with no money, you donât get a lot of lessons about budgeting and how money works because thereâs none to teach with.
âIt was later in life, in my early thirties, my Saturn return, that I was really able to look back at my family for the holistic picture of who they were. What I mean by that is I really only knew this nasty, choking, abusive, clenching, snap, break, hammer, repeat, snap, break, hammer, repeat. Because I had become an adult, I now had big boy needs, big boy bills, a car, an apartment, it was then that I could sit and think if I was my mom, look at the space Iâm living in, it would be me now, holding this pile of fucking bills in my hand and a 7-, 5-, and a 1-year-old. When I go grocery shopping and it costs $40, Iâm like oh my God, and the 7-, 5-, and 1-year-old. I have forgiven, but havenât forgotten. I was able to understand that with no assistance, she didnât remarry or chase men. Itâs unfortunate my mom was not able to have me in her life. The reason itâs unfortunate is because weâre so similar that we would be so perfectly matched. When youâre a child, you have your mom and in adulthood, they become your friend; thatâs the ideal. We would be so perfectly matched as friends because Iâm super smart, super independent, super loyal, super cunning and crafty, and a little mischievous; all these qualities that my mom was.
âWhen I was younger, about five years old, I was being a little shit, this was the 1970s, I think we were in fuckin Russellâs, they donât even exist anymore. This dude kind of gave me a shove, he shouldnât have because you donât touch other peopleâs kids, because I was acting up and bumped into him. My mom, whoâs all of 5â4â, 130 pounds max, we were in the hall of the restaurant, she came swooping down that hallway, I was still facing her, she was Lilith, there was just a fury. She put one hand on my back so she could cup me to herself and, with the other hand, she knocked the man in his face and knocked him on his ass and said âif you ever touch my fuckin kid again, I will fuckin kill youâ, and she meant it. I can be a little like that too. I have all of her qualities, so itâs really unfortunate that we donât have a relationship.
âHereâs two things because I really need to stop. Thereâs a geometric shape, itâs the shape of the shell. They say our solar system moves this way. We think itâs the sun with all the planets going around, and it is but even as it is happening, itâs moving, so it isnât like this, itâs like this. I have to stop telling my stories like this because it escapes me, but I will circle back to say I wonder if she saw so much of herself in me, and her life was hard. She didnât know what else to do. She knew she moved through life the way she did and it just bashed the shit out of her so if she could make a different person, it wouldnât happen. To tie it all in, in my thirties, I was really able to examine my family in this way and Iâll call it forgiveness work. I forgave them, I canât say I excused it and I wonât. I was able to objectively and affectively realize the pressure points that created the people that they were and the pressure points that I kept hitting with my existence.â
How did that shape your relationships following your teenage years?
âI havenât had a ton of luck with romantic relationships. Sometimes itâs nice to revisit situations and ask if thereâs anything you could have done, and maybe here and there a little bit. There was my first one, and theyâre so lovely because theyâre your first one, and you donât even remember to acknowledge that they can end because itâs your first one and you think âthis is it, foreverâ and it wasnât, but he taught me a lot. He taught me a lot about what care feels like, so I appreciate that I got a first one like that, and Iâm old enough to know that not everybody does. Then, there was one who moved away. I donât know how I feel about that. He moved away to do some school/career things, when we were in our twenties. I literally let him go, and I knew in that moment that I let him go. I would never tell someone to stay here and donât do this career thing. I donât know if I could do that and live with myself, and then the long distance broke us up. There was another where he asked me if we should have an open or closed relationship, and I said that I could go either way and asked what he thought. He said he wanted to have a closed one, I said that I could do that, and then he cheated. If we had not had that conversation, that exact fuckin conversation, I would have stayed and worked it out. But, we literally had a conversation where I said you can fuck anybody you want, what do you want to do, and he said not that, and he did that. So, I said I gotta go, I just fuckin gotta. I gave it to you on a silver platter.
âRelationships havenât been super; there have been a lot of small ones. I can make it sound like Iâm quick to cut, but I donât think I am because I wonât cut without a conversation or plan. We can make a plan; I have said âhey, you seem to be fuckin drinking a lot, letâs see if you cannot do that and see where were at in six months.â If in six months youâre still drinking a lot, itâs a cut. Thereâs been small ones, three months, six months, nothing thatâs been rooted, Iâll call nine months the root. Itâs been tough because I can be a lot. I said to a friend of mine, theyâre bias because theyâre a friend of mine, itâs really easy to date me because I donât demand a lot, and they said Dominique, you fuckin demand everything, and I said thanks. And my friend said that what he meant was that I literally demand everything - they need to show up, be their authentic self, and they need to really peel it open so I can peel it open too; thatâs everything. They donât need to have a car or wear suits all the time, but what I demand is everything and for some people, they canât do it. You need to be in a place to do it, you need to feel safe to do it. So, there hasnât been anything.
âI also move through the world not thinking about it. I can be lone wolfish, but not so lone wolfish that Iâm completely isolated. I can certainly keep my own company and enjoy my own company, and I have no problems with that. Iâm a cat person. I realized the other day, I feel like Iâm in a place, physical-plane wise, but also mentally and emotionally, that I think Iâm ready again. Before when something came up, someone might tell me I was very attractive, letâs go out to dinner, and I would be like if Iâm not doing anything, sure. Iâm certainly not going to be âmarry meâ to the first person that drives by slow enough. I bring a lot to the table. Iâm super grounded. Iâve done a lot of the inner work of learning who I am, what makes me tic, what shadows and cobwebs there are, and also immense successes. I know myself in all my parts, and thatâs a really good place to be when youâre looking to make a life with someone. I donât feel like anything is missing. I may want something from them, but I need nothing from them. I feel like Iâm in a really good spot to take on somebody and not have it be all complex. What I mean by that is itâs not full of complexes. Iâm not lonely. Iâm not doing it for financial reasons, or to feel attractive. Iâm literally bringing someone into my life because life can be more fun and joyous when youâre a team. That was nice to realize, but I just donât think about it. So, to even haven the thought, lots of things happen when Iâm smoking in the bathroom. Thatâs when I have my epiphanies.
âThe other day, I was super busy and I was on a bus. It was kind of a long ride. I was in a back corner seat, because I like to stare out the window and do my thinking, but I also drink coffee, smoke cigarettes, and do a lot of thinking. Iâm a thinker, except with a cigarette. I hadnât realized it, but all of a sudden, this dude, not too far away from me, said âwhat are you doing?â What had happened, unbeknownst to me, sometimes you can think and think and get really in, and you run on autopilot, which can be nice at times, but sometimes itâs dangerous because you donât realize youâre going to walk out into traffic. Autopilot isnât always great. Because I was thinking, drinking coffee, had time, and was looking out the window, I had autopilot pulled a cigarette out of my bag, had it in my lips, and had the lighter lit, and was about to light up on the bus. I had to snap out of it.â
You talked about arriving in your thirties to a place where you were able to look at both yourself and your family in a different light. Tell me about what your twenties looked like. I would imagine going from a situation growing up where you felt that you were trying to be groomed to be someone that you werenât into a situation where you had thrust yourself out into society in a way that you didnât have your basic needs met could have led you to some coping skills or into some situations that were dangerous.
âMy twenties were really turbulent. Thereâs something kind of pressingly important I want to stress because I came to realize it just now because these are specific questions. I clearly speak with my friends all the time about times that I havenât thought about all at one time. My twenties were extremely turbulent externally. Although the external looked super turbulent, internally, they were less turbulent. What I mean by that is growing up with the family that I did, realizing that I just am who I am, and itâs just never going to happen with these people, so I left. I wasnât ashamed of who I was. It wasnât perfect. We all pull in these narratives that get directed at us. Of course, there was some level of shame. There was some level of whatever, but I had never bought into it, is what Iâm trying to say. I knew that it was targeted at me, but by the age, I knew the world was targeted at me. In my twenties, I had been in the gay club seen since sixteen or seventeen years old. It was at a different time, I donât know if they let minors in anymore. Things have gotten weirder and more conservative. I knew full well what others thought of me, but I also knew what I thought of myself was not the same, and I think thatâs super important. Thank God for it because if I had bought into it, a whole lot more work would have had to have been done. If I had internalized it, Iâm not saying that it didnât get onion-skinned in, but it had not penetrated. My twenties were super turbulent. How did it manifest? It manifested in, itâs hard to explain, destructive behaviors that I knew were destructive that wouldnât destroy me, but would destroy the external. Iâm going to tie this into something psychological in just a moment because I just had an epiphany.
âI just had the thought that we go through these stages, I donât mean to adhere to the whole Freudian thing, of our development where we world test, and I think one of the stages is learning to test the creative and destructive powers of our human self. I donât think I had normal stages growing up because they werenât nurtured and so now that I had been out of the house for a few years, what manifested was this destructive experiment testing of the outside world of literally Iâm checking matter at this point. If I treat this person this way, what happens? If I donât show up to work, if I walk out of the job, if I throw this TV off my balcony. It was a real scientific experiment. It wasnât can I get myself so high that I wake up in a ditch, I never came this way. It was what can I do in this world. The thing thatâs important to remember, for me anyway, is I didnât exactly have super great familial relationships and I wasnât old enough, like I am now, to build crazy, amazing friendships. I knew that I was hurting other people and I cared, but not enough to stop the experiment. Iâve long since forgiven myself; it was a different time. I donât carry a lot of baggage with me in life. Iâm pretty clean, is the word I use.
âMy twenties were spent destroying a lot property, sabotaging a lot of jobs, sabotaging a lot friendships, and not being good to people. It wasnât like haahaahaa I hurt, and now you hurt. Thatâs not the spirit it was done in. It was more scientific; I went into science now. My brain must work in a scientific way. It was really like that fetal position, when you break someone. There was a science to it. Maybe I should not do that. Oh, if you walk out of your job, they wonât let you come back, so maybe I wonât do that. I know now what happens when I do X, so, in the future, I can X with a contextual outcome that I want to happen. It was like learning boundaries and power.â
And consequence.
âYes, and consequence. Also knowing that some people move through the world doing that same thing, but theyâre enjoying it because it wasnât super enjoyable. I canât say it was a joyous time. It was a learning time and like âwow, I can effect changeâ time, but it wasnât âI feel superb.â You donât feel superb when youâre tearing everything down. There was a bit of that, a good portion of that was part of the reason why I left home. It just couldnât happen. It was already happening. It was wild times and things that I did. Iâve had a very long life. Iâm lucky to be alive, and I am alive, and thatâs how my twenties went.
âWhen I was about twenty-eight, I had broken away from the old gang, not a lot of contact with them, and I had a new set of friends. I was doing these things, and I thought that I got all I need out of this. I wanted to see if I could take who I was with my family, who I left that to be because this sure as fuck isnât dead, and this thing I am now and see if I can Russian-Doll style it to superimpose on each other and make something that isnât going to eat its own tail and eat itself, and they did. They just did. Maybe Iâm lucky. Iâd say I kind of got my act together by age thirty-three. I had a fantastic job, relationships were what they were, my boundaries were good, my mental capacity was good, critical thinking was good, and capacity for love was good. All those things you think âplease God let me grow up and know that I will love something elseâ, and I did.â
It sounds like your adolescence was a period of trying to be groomed or molded into something that wasnât you. Your twenties was kind of a stripping away of that, just tearing it down.
âI probably didnât get a normal adolescent period. I think ages nineteen to twenty-six I would have done that from ages fourteen to seventeen, in a normal household. You break the door, you jump off the roof onto a skateboard, itâs a thing we humans do, which is why kids drive us so crazy. At age fourteen, theyâre leaping cars and throwing bottles off roofs - material world testing. I didnât get it until my twenties. Itâs unfortunate because youâre smarter, craftier, and more destructive in your twenties. You can really ruin a life at age twenty-six in ways that you canât at age thirteen.â
True. It sounds like you didnât ruin your life.
âNo. My self-preservation is strong.â
Along this journey, I know thereâs a lot of components to your experiences, thought process, and your reconciling your stages of development, what are some things youâve learned about yourself over these years that stand out?
âSome of the things Iâve learned are I really adore myself, I really do. Iâm quite an exquisite creature and Iâm pleased. I have a profound capacity for love, human beings, animals, the world, and the universe, like deep love. Iâm super compassionate, really creative, innovative, and a problem solver. Iâm also super resilient. Everybody has a plate, weâll call it, that they can carry things on. My plate is sturdy, man. Iâm definitely not weak. Iâm super motivated. Iâm a visionary and what I mean by that is I set visions and then I move towards them. Iâm not one to be âI donât know what I want to do.â I fuckin know at all times what I want to do, and thatâs the direction Iâm going. If the car is going this way, you can be in it and go this way, but my car is going this way.
âItâs been complicated. I think it might have been what led me to anthropology. Thereâs a really complex brain up there, and one of the things this super complex brain is good at is what I will attribute to pattern recognition. How this manifests is almost like the sight, but Iâm not going to claim it as âthe sight,â but what Iâm going to claim is the my brain digitizes, archives, and files so cleanly that after the thirtieth time of seeing something, it can see it coming. So, when I meet someone and theyâre like hey, I already know or yes, letâs see. Itâs life-saving so Iâm really glad I have that. Something will happen at work and Iâll say âI think itâs going to go like thisâ and you can never fully be sure. Itâs always good to test, but be ready if it goes like that. I think itâs just ones and zeros, not down here, but up here. So, Iâm grateful for that. Iâm something.â
You are something. It sounds like youâve also acquired the ability to trust that kind of sense of recognizing patterns and being able to trust yourself.
âI trust myself above all others. I do. I had an experience when I was in my thirties where I taught myself to do that. Youâre going for a job and your first instinct is to call your friend and say âoh my God, Iâm going for this job, what should I do? What should I wear?â Itâs not that your friends arenât good to bounce ideas off of, but thereâs something special that happens when you call no one and you do it alone. The voice youâre checking in with is your fuckin own. Now I do both. I check in with myself and my friends, if I wish. There was a moment where I realized I never checked in with myself. I knew what I wanted, but I never just sat with a problem in my belly and solved it single handedly. I think itâs the majority of what I do now.â
How has that changed your life, or not, by moving towards checking in with yourself?
âI donât know if itâs changed my life. It has definitely changed the way I operate in the world and the universe. I feel like a God. Thatâs what Gods do. They make decisions and make things happen. I had a friend who recently entered my life who has, I donât know what happened. Some friends you travel with all the time and others you kind of loop in, then youâre gone for a few years, and then you loop in and pick up where you left off. The last time we looped in, he came back like an addict. I donât know where it came from. This was a two glasses of wine at dinner kind of man and suddenly he came back as an addict and had lost everything. What I told him, is what I realized, and this will tie in, is that Iâve watched, I think he has forty days sober, and heâs fresh, soft, and vulnerable, him struggle through addiction and not use. He asked me to be his sponsor and I told him no, that I thought he needed an official sponsor whoâs actually been an addict and has done the thing, so he has a sponsor. Of course, Iâm his friend, so I can be there as a friend. Watching him, as his friend, go through this thing and not pick up again, and you think weâll have a good day, but itâs like a minute to minute fuckin thing. He got his thirty-day chip and I told him that watching him battle and overcome his addiction has literally brought me closer to God. What I mean by that is Iâm not crazy religious, but I believe thereâs something, thereâs a spark of it in every single one of us. To watch him do what heâs doing and see the strength, resilience, and grace that it takes, if I believe what I say I believe, then what Iâm seeing is the resilience, strength, and power of God, and all things in the universe.
âWhen I say that I make my own decisions, what Iâm learning about myself and the universe is the power. Itâs almost the flip side of the coin or maybe the light and shadow have finally made gray on me. In my twenties, I think I was trying to get at what I get now, and what I get now is the power of existence to decide and manipulate matter and create. Iâm just really grateful for it.â
Yeah, right. In that way, we are God.
âI think God exists in our relationships and nowhere else, if truth be told.â
In terms of relationships, we started this interview talking about authenticity through relation to ourselves, and it sounds like youâre been able to arrive, cultivate, and maintain that space within yourself where you are honoring who you are and youâre not abandoning or neglecting that space in any situation.
âI feel good about it. What Iâm really excited about and I firmly believe that if weâre no longer learning weâre either dead or should be, or have already; weâre just the walking dead. So much has happened, lost and gained, more gained than lost. You never know when your time is. On human assumptions, I have another thirty or forty years to go. So, Iâm really excited to be here and know that thirty years are behind, and this is what has happened. I canât imagine what will happen when Iâm seventy, and Iâm really excited for it.â
Do you have a favorite quote, mantra, song lyric, or something that someone has said to you that really resonates with you that youâd like to share?
âI do. It comes back to my mom. Like I told you, weâre super similar, even though we donât speak. The line is âknow your own story.â The reason I say that is I would tell my mom, âThese kids at school said this or that, or whatever,â and she would say, âIs it true?â I would say no, but people believe it and she would say, âYeah, and that will completely fuckin happen, but it doesnât matter about all of that, you need to know your own story, really KNOW it because if you donât know your own story, people can say things like I think youâre not being very nice and you know that theyâre incorrect, or that youâre very irresponsible, and you know thatâs not true.â Or, the adverse, if you really KNOW your fuckin story, someone can say I think you are being petty and you can say, not that Iâm going to stop, but I think you may be right. Nobody tells you youâre fuckin story and that can go for good things, too. How many times in life does it happen that somebody says, âoh, youâre so forgiving, I love itâ and what they really mean is youâre letting everybody fuckin walk all over you. Really itâs more like âno, Iâm really not so fuckin forgiving, if you ever do that again, youâre done.â So, âknow your own story.ââ
Thatâs really powerful and it definitely brings us back full circle to authenticity because I think that is what the crux of authenticity is - knowing your own story, honoring it, respecting it, and not buying into what someone else is trying to tell you what your story is because that is part of the narrative that we then adopt into our thinking, the way that we perceive ourselves, and the way we portray ourselves in the world around us.
âYeah. I was really young, nine or ten, when she said that. She taught me a lot. She taught me how to be a woman in the world. Do you know what I mean by that? Iâm clearly male and identify as male. Oh, your mom is a single mom as well? They just operate different because they have to. Itâs not because thereâs something intrinsically different about women. Itâs because the game is rigged differently and it takes different strategies to be a women. When she was a parent to me, where a dad might say âyou got to throw the football,â my mom would say let people think that theyâre super smart, like your boss, let them think they did something for you or they fixed it. Maybe not so much now, it was a different generation. I think those games, or navigation and strategies. By the time I came of age, my teenage years and into my twenties, I wasnât a feminist, I hadnât read feminist literature or anything like that, but I saw women as equal, and I also knew what it was like to be a woman in the world. Itâs just interesting.â
Itâs interesting that you brought that up, because I had a father growing up who was not really present in much of my life, even though he was there and would sleep there. Iâve always respected and admired women. They are, for the most part, the ones I turn to for a sense of power, strength, knowledge, and wisdom because of the way they operate. Those who do step up to the plate and bring forth a movement or their own authenticity or artistry in some way, I have always been captivated by that. Even though Iâm male, I think thereâs a very big part of me that is feminine, and I believe that we all have that sort of ying and yang. While growing up, I felt similarly being bullied or confined with terms like faggot, homo, fem, or things like that, those qualities were kind of diminished. Iâm grateful now that they still exist and theyâve been honored. Iâve definitely taken some twists and turns of exploring what that meant to me, of who I was, and how I identified with that. Iâm so grateful there are strong women who are being authentic, showing up in this world, and there are men who respect that and are not threatened by it, because I think that creates a lot of the decisions we were talking briefly about, like abortion. If we can consider that we donât need to empathize with, we donât need to have a uterus and we donât need to have breasts or whatever to have been oppressed, and say thatâs a valid need. The world would be a different place if we could look at the needs that are coming up, whether itâs acts of violence, which are forms of communication of needs.
âIâm curious what the fear is. Weâll never know because theyâre not going to confess. They must look at resources and things as like a big pizza. What is it, a zero sum game? If I give this slice to you, I donât get that slice, and theyâre not looking at the pizza holistically. When someone says they canât go have an abortion, but if you want to go have one, thatâs completely fuckin yours and your alone fuckin decision. I donât have to have one. For people unable to do that, Iâll always be curious what are the synapses firing in their brains at that moment.â
I think in a lot of ways the fear comes back to if I open myself up to this possibility then that brings every other belief and stance Iâve taken in my life into question, and Iâll have no solid ground to stand on. I think many people find security, as isolating and miserable as that can be, they find some sense of security on that platform and behind those walls. I think it definitely comes down to thatâif you open yourself up to this thing then everything else comes into question.
âCorrect. It just implodes.â
Itâs necessary. In order for the rebuilding of something new, the whole thing has to be deconstructed or delaunched. I havenât seen you in about twenty years, I come to visit you, and propose that youâre not only going to catch up with me, but youâre also going to open your heart and your mind in these ways to share with a broader audience. How has it felt to talk about these thoughts, feelings and experiences with me today?
âUm . . . itâs multi-level. On the one hand, I can be sappy and nostalgic. I got a lot of porcupine prickles but, at the same time, extremely almost maudlin, sappy, and sentimental. I say I like to spiral over familiar ground, so Iâm always spiraling in, getting something new, spiraling out, and applying it to life. Itâs been nice to spiral over these years again, revisit some things and see if thereâs anything thatâs still pulling me down, see if thereâs anything that needs cleaning, erasing, or do I have a new outlook on things.
âTo know that it goes to a broader audience, Iâm old enough to know, at this point, that maybe in different nuanced ways, someone out there has, does, and will feel as I do in life at various stages. Ruth Benedict calls it the great arc of human potentialities when thereâs a lot of thingsâvariability. Thereâs someone who feels as I did when I did at sixteen, when theyâre sixteen, when theyâre forty, or felt it last week. I know someone will hear this and someone may say I have no idea what this gentleman is talking about, but then I think someone will. I think my stories lend an ear to queer people, disabled people, people of color, and people who are different. But, really theyâre not different, thatâs the thing, theyâre perfectly well within the arc I spoke about, but somebody with power may make their lives miserable for it. Thatâs really what it is. Letâs say Iâm swimming in the ocean and a five-headed turtle approaches and wants to play, maybe not everybody, but my new thought is nature accommodates five-headed turtles, and itâs as simple as that because there it is. Hopefully, someone will hear it and be positive, get some nuance from it on how to tackle something that theyâre thinking about. Even if itâs just entertainment, as long as someone hears it and thinks something. I donât have to dictate what they think, just something, anything.â
Awesome. Thank you.
âThank you.â
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What has been one of the most challenging things youâve experienced or are currently experiencing?
 âIâve experienced a lot of challenging things, as well as a lot of good challenging things recently. Growing up, I was in an abusive family and my dad was very abusive to my mom. Overcoming that was super hard for me, and being there for my mom, more than anything. Getting older and understanding that this isnât the way a person should treat somebody, even though thatâs all I knew. And then getting into a relationship with somebody, burying myself and thoughts that I experienced because I didnât want to cause harm on anybody else, even though I wanted to share my experience as more of an outlet for me but, at the same time, let others understand who I am and where I came from. I suppressed that for so long because, again, I didnât feel it was needed and, it ended up, over time, after a very long relationship of mine ended, thatâs when I started to realize that this is something I need to talk about more and get it out because it was suppressing my feelings. Over time, I didnât know who I was and I was happy with who I was, but I always thought it was other people who werenât happy with me because, again, my experiences. After my relationship ended, I started seeing a therapist. It was probably the hardest six months of my life because I had to pull out demons and things that were in my past that I suppressed for so long, but I knew they needed to come out and I needed to talk to somebody about them. That, I would say, is probably the hardest thing Iâve ever done.
 âFast forward and now Iâm doing something as challenging, but not as dark and sad. I made a career change about 2-1/2 years ago. I decided I didnât want to be a retail manager anymore after working my way up the ladder, going to school for business. I decided to throw in the towel because it wasnât something I was happy doing. I promised myself I would never do something I wasnât happy with, and I was continuing to do that. The pay was phenomenal, I always had financial stability, and it was hard to walk away from. I decided to throw in the towel, apply to nursing school, and I moved about 700 miles away from home to start fresh and to start a new career. Right now, Iâm trying to maintain that financial stability. I had made very good money and my lifestyle didnât go away although my salary did. Trying to maintain the lifestyle I created for myself while putting myself back through school at age 30 has been quite challenging, but in a different aspect to where itâs rewarding to me. Itâs not something that I need to get out or something that is never going to change. Iâm not depressed about it. I donât wake up in the morning thinking itâs going to be another bad day, I have to go talk to somebody, or I got to go do this. Itâs really opened my eyes to the meaning of life itself.
 âNursing school is probably, again, the hardest thing Iâll ever (hopefully) do because I canât imagine doing something like that, but it has been extremely rewarding. Even when Iâm struggling with work or finances, I understand that, at the end of the day, Iâm helping somebody improve their quality of life and Iâm helping families that think itâs the end of the world because somebody is sick or somebody has passed. Iâm able to share my past experiences, emotionally, by channeling my emotions through them and consoling them, which is probably my favorite part of the job. Itâs hard to see people sad, but I find pride in it because Iâm able to take that very negative experience in their life and make it a positive one. No matter how bad my day is, I always know that Iâve helped someone in a positive way.
 âRecently I had my first patient pass away on me. Iâm a nurse tech now, working my way through nursing school. I had cared for her for three days and she was healthy, not healthy, but she looked healthy. She was speaking like a normal person. She wasnât sick. She was laughing and joking. My eyes were really opened. I had come in for my fourth shift and she had a rapid decline, which was expected. She was in her 80s and had cancer all throughout her body. To see something change like that - it wasnât something I was expecting. Iâm glad it happened so early in my career because one of my biggest fears was having someone pass away in my care or someone that I had cared for. I took the patientâs vital signs, and they werenât good. I put some music on the TV and about an hour of me arriving on my shift, she passed away. I felt myself in a very somber and quiet mood for the rest of the night, with no thoughts at all. It was almost like meditating. It was a very weird feeling, and then on my drive home, it hit me that life is so precious. It can go from something good to not being there anymore.
 âSometimes Iâm an introvert, but Iâm also extremely extroverted. I love people, but I also harbor myself away sometimes because I feel like my personality is a little overwhelming. My mother constantly calls me and thereâs times I look at the phone and say, âwhat the hell does she want nowâ and wonât answer it. My mom and I are best friends, but thereâs times where I just donât answer the phone. That night driving home, I picked up the phone, and I donât ever really call her, and called my mom because I could have gotten to an accident on my way home or something could have happened to her, and Iâm 700 miles away. Experiencing that really opened my eyes largely to the fact that no matter how bad things are in life, itâs the most precious thing youâll ever experience.
 âMy life has been a roller coaster but, at the same time, I look back and wouldnât change a thing. Even though I lived through hell for many years, my mom dealt with a lot of things with four kids on her own. I wouldnât wish it on anyone else. I wish it didnât happen, but I wouldnât change it if I could go back. I feel that every day when I wake up thatâs what has made me who I am today. Being able to see the different things in life - going from having financial stability to not, being in an abusive family and seeing different aspects of life to where people can be good. Growing up, I never trusted anybody. I always thought âyou never know whatâs up their sleeve, you never know whatâs going on.â As Iâve progressed through life, I wouldnât say that I trust too many people, but I donât care what theyâve done or what their past is, I still give them a chance until they personally affect me or burn that bridge.
 âI actually had a conversation the other day with a friend of mine, whoâs extremely religious and, Iâm not at all. I find my religion to be waking up, having morals and values and, if I do something wrong, not necessarily repenting, but really understanding that tomorrow, when you wake up, itâs a new day and I canât continue to do what I was doing. That, to me, is forgiving myself. We had a conversation about how people are viewed whenever they commit a crime or something happens, as largely as sexual abuse. The instant it comes across the news or in the paper that someone was molested, you hear the majority of people shouting âhang themâ or do this and that to the person who committed the crime. I had things happen to me, more physical, but I still never think that the person should be killed for it. I immediately start thinking what went wrong in their life and what caused them to do these actions. Iâm sure there are some people who are born innately bad; I donât knowâIâm not a scientist. I do believe that 99 percent of people are born good and they experienced bad things that created their behaviors. By lashing out and attacking people who commit crimes and do things like that, I feel like youâre enabling them to continue to do what theyâre doing because obviously something went wrong in their life. Again, I think my past experience has enabled me to think that way. I, fortunately enough, was able to have positive people in my life, not all negative people. I could have easily become an abuser or gotten into drugs and alcohol. We all have addictive personalities to something - it could be coffee, cigarettes, or porn. I think it all matters who you situate yourself around. If youâre around negative people, donât take in their negativity and change your mindset into a positive mindset, and thatâs what I did.
 âGoing back to what I was said, weâre in a world of very sad times. I think itâs more the fact that things are readily available to us so I think things have gotten worse, but I think itâs because we can see them. Instagram, My Space, Facebook, the news â things are just so more readily available to us. My goal is to, at some point in life, be able to teach people to inspire others. Never judge anybody. No matter what a person did, never think the worst about them until you know what caused it, no matter what it is. People speed to work because theyâre running late. People abuse others because typically theyâre not happy with themselves or thatâs all they know. My goal is to open the eyes of people, although I donât really know how to do it. Every time I encounter somebody, I try to respect them. If I feel like theyâre a negative person, I donât immediately say I donât want to be around them. If theyâve done something wrong to me, I donât immediately say that I hate them or canât stand that person. Itâs more that I want to understand whatâs caused their actions. My mom always tells me I should have been a therapist or I should be a therapist, and I say âno, I have my own problems.â
 âI would say that my biggest challenge is that my eyes have been opened to the world through nursing, and understanding people at a different level, and itâs challenging to see when others, I donât expect anybody to have the same beliefs as me, but I also expect everybody to give every single person a chance because theyâve been given a chance once their life, too. So, that to me, is a huge challenge.
 âTwo years ago, I moved to the South, and thereâs a huge difference. Itâs a much faster pace in the North. We donât really mind othersâ businesses as much as the South does. For me, creating friendships with people that grew up totally different lifestyles than me, I never judged them and tried to understand where they come from. I have a very, very good friend and our friendship is extremely strong, but weâre complete opposite. There are some days where I feel itâs going to affect our relationship, and thatâs why Iâm trying to have a better understanding of where sheâs coming from and how her family was raised. Iâm not really religious, but I respect those who have religious beliefs because I feel that whatever makes you a good person, do it. Whatever you think is keeping you going or giving you hope, do it. Itâs hard because whenever I express myself in a manner thatâs not, I guess religiously correct, I feel like Iâve offended her or vice versa; she may feel that sheâs offending me. Iâm currently trying to understand how our friendship can still be very strong without causing harm or offending each other when a topic comes up. Iâm a huge debater but, when it comes to a friends, the debates should be left at the door because they could ruin a friendship. Those are some of the challenges that Iâm dealing with right now.â
 Yeah, thereâs quite a few. Iâd like to go back to some of them and revisit them, starting with your childhood. You talked about witnessing abuse or receiving abuse personally. Tell me more about that.
 âItâs funny, if you had asked me five years ago to talk about it, I would have stormed out the door and drove home because itâs something that Iâve harbored inside me for a very, very long time, and it was more to protect my mother because she had enough things to deal with. My siblings had a lot of problems that came forth during adolescence. At a very young age, I felt that I needed to be the one to help my mom out because my she worked very, very hard just to keep the lights on. About two weeks before Christmas, three or four years after my mom split up with my dad, the lights would go out. It felt like a tradition and we joked about it as a kid. When I looked back at it, I canât imagine how devastating that was for my mother. It was because she was trying to provide for us for Christmas and the electric bill would be unpaid for a little bit. I bottled everything up that happened to me.
 âTwo of my siblings were abused by my father. I was touched by my father, but wouldnât call it sexual abuse. Seeing others and hearing othersâ experiences, sexual abuse to me is a more aggressive behavior, but again, it affects every person differently, every person sees things differently, and every person deals with it differently. I didnât think it was devastating enough that it was going to cause me harm. I felt like it was going to be more devastating if I shared it with my mother because she had already been through it twice with two of my siblings. As a young child, around 8 years old, I thought that I should probably tell her, but I didnât want to cause her any harm and I didnât want her to blame herself . Then I forgot about it, not that it ever went away, but I suppressed it for so long that it was like it wasnât there, although it reflected in my personality and who I was, but I didnât know that.
 âWhen I was about 16 or 17, I would say that I went a good 5 or 6 years without thinking about it; it was in the years of my life where I was pretty much unstoppable. I was a teenager and didnât want anything to bother me. I felt like I focused a lot on things that I needed to do as a teenager. When I turned 18, I thought that there was something wrong with me, and thought âhow is this not effecting me?â You see it on the news, Lifetime stories, and people are distraught for years. Was it something that I did that didnât cause me much harm, but it was because I bottled up for so long. Then I got into a relationship and, I look back on it now, and my ex used to tell me that I had a problem because I took a bunch of selfies all the time. I took them, but never posted them. My phone was full of selfies and he said to me that he thought I had a problem. I asked him what he meant by âa problem.â Theyâre just pictures. That was when Facebook was really big and selfies were a big deal. He told me that he thought I had body dysmorphic disorder and I said, âno, I donât think I doâ. Our relationship went on and the topic came up a few times.
 âAfter the relationship ended, I went to see a therapist and thatâs when everything from my past came up. It was the first time I had ever talked about it to anybody at the age of 26. I held it in for a very long time. To this day, I havenât really talked to my mom about it, but I let her know that there are things in my past that I didnât talk about and Iâve let them go. I never let her know that I didnât really talk about it because I was keeping her from harm. I felt that it would hurt her more than it would have when I was a kid. I let her know that I was strong enough so that I didnât have to let it out until later.
 âThe therapist asked me about my relationship and I told her he used to say I had a problem, body dysphoric disorder. She asked why and I shared with her about that. It was probably about our tenth therapy session and it hit me when she asked me if I was happy with who I am. I thought that I make bad decisions, like everybody else, but I would think that Iâm happy. There were four days between our therapy sessions, and she made me take the normal amount of selfies that I would take in a month, she made me take them in four days. I thought it was extremely weird and I thought how is this going to work. I took my random morning pictures, my car driving pictures. When I went back to therapy, she asked me to look at all of the pictures and pick out the best pictures. I think there were 80-something pictures. She didnât tell me until after that she wanted me to pick out at least eight pictures; I looked at the pictures and I was only able to pick two. She said âyou only picked two, thatâs less than 5%.â She asked if I wasnât happy with them and I said that I didnât look good, I look bad, I look terrible. She said she wouldnât say I had body dysmorphic disorder, but she wanted to find out more about what I saw wrong with the pictures, because they were pictures of me and she couldnât tell the difference between the second and third pictures and she wanted to know what difference I saw. It dawned on me that I had been putting on a fake smile for a long time. The only pictures I could pick out were the pictures that I felt I was actually smiling a real smile. From that moment on, I realized that I canât hide behind a smile. Everybody can smile. You say âcheeseâ and somebody can smile. Now, just sitting here today, I can say that nothing has changed with taking pictures of myself. If you look at my Instagram itâs full of pictures of myself and people probably think that Iâm full of myself, but now itâs because I canât get enough of it because I am actually happy.
 âI was able to let go of a lot of things that were bothering me. I would say that I smile now because Iâm happy. Iâm not smiling for a picture or Iâm not smiling because Iâm trying to hide something. Iâm smiling because I had an opportunity to change other peoplesâ lives and Iâve had an opportunity to change my own life. Some people donât get that opportunity. Some people feel like theyâre not strong enough and they take their own life or they take someone elseâs life or they end up abusing someone else because thatâs all they know how to do. I smile today because I was able to conquer that and get past that.
 âLike I was saying earlier, thatâs why I canât judge a single person. When I was a store manager in retail, customer service was the big thing, and thatâs what drives a business. When you talk about surveys, it gets annoying. As a manager, you have to drive that customer service. I donât know if youâve seen the Chick-fil-A training video, but it is probably one of the most inspiring two-minute videos Iâve ever watched, and that is how I think and have thought for a very long time. The video has customers walking around the restaurant, ordering food, and a little girl walking to a table with her dad. It has quotes above each personâs head which say something like âthis person just found out they had breast cancer, this person just got accept to a college; this person just got her Visa after 15 years; this person, who is 8 years old, her mother died giving birth to her and her father blames her to this day.â Thereâs some good, but some really sad things in there. Thatâs my thought process on life: you never know what a person is going through. You can walk past a person who has been through way more than you, and you may not have opened the door for them or you may not have smiled at them. Just those small things could have changed their whole day. To me, wake up and be a good person. You donât have to go overboard. You donât have to kill people with kindness. You donât have to be cheesy; just smile and be a good person. If you have something bothering you, just let it go. In the long run, youâre only hurting yourself and the others around you because we act on things subconsciously. I had for years; I thought I was happy with myself and I wasnât, and it was affecting relationships around me and it was affecting a lot of things. It was affecting my ability to reach for goals I wanted.
 âTo this day, I look back and wish the things that happened to me, didnât happen, but I look at it now as a blessing because I think that itâs truly made me a better person. The only thing I wish that had changed was that my father got help when he was a kid. I hate him. I really do; but itâs his actions that I hate and itâs the fact that, after all of it came out, I didnât see any care there at all. Thatâs the only reason why I hate him, but I still, to this day, wish him the best. Hopefully, some day, he can let go of the things that happened to him and I hope that heâs not continuing to hurt others. Most people would wish death on someone like that or they would say âI hate what happened to me or I hate this or that,â but I canât ever say that. I just really wish that he had gotten help. Hearing stories about my grandparents, aunts and uncles (his family), before I was around, I believe there was abuse from my grandfather and there were things in that relationship, and I can guarantee thatâs where his actions came from. I really wish there had been someone there for him before it turned him into, not a bad person, but resorting to those actions. Again, I think thatâs where it comes from. We all act on something for a reason. We donât just act. Weâre not robots. Weâre not computers. Thereâs always a reason for our actions.â
 Many folks who have talked about being abused, sexually in some way, have not only carried that shame for many years for many reasons, because theyâre afraid someone isnât going to believe them, or theyâre going to lose connection to their family, or they deserved it in some way or they provoked it somehow. How did that manifest for you?
 âI never thought I deserved it. I never thought I was going to cause harm on somebody. I think my experience was shaped a little differently because I had two siblings who came out about it before I ever did. So, I knew that my mother would have believed me. I really didnât have a good relationship with my fatherâs family to begin with, so I didnât feel like I was going to lose any type of relationships. My main reason for not coming out about it was that I didnât want to cause any more harm to my mother. Itâs not an easy thing when you see someone providing for you, blaming themselves for something, and see or hear them up late at night, either throwing up or crying. I didnât want to be the reason why that behavior for her continued, and I knew that it would. I knew that if I came out, my mother would have felt that it was another thing that she could have or should have prevented, and she would have thought that it was her fault. Really, the reason was to protect my mother, and I donât regret it. I donât regret it at all because my mother tried to take her life when I was 10. I think that if I would have come out about that, she would have because it would have been another stone on her shoulder. I donât regret not coming out about it until I was in my twenties. I feel like I was strong enough to be able to hold onto it for that long and, had I not been strong enough, I would not have held onto it for that long. I wouldnât have had any other choice. Knowing what my mother was going through, knowing that she was still making it, waking up every day with a smile on her face, and trying to provide, I knew that I had the genes to be a strong person and I could carry this with me and I didnât have to come out with it then. That was my reason for not coming out then. My mom is my best friend to this day. Sometimes I donât think I show her, but I think she knows. When I told my mother, I knew that it was the right time. It was when my mom was stable enough (her life has never been easy to this day), but I felt like she would be able to hear it once we all grew up and she was able to see the good in us, that she did raise good kids, and that she had made good decisions for us. Thatâs when I felt like I was able to come out with it.
 âMy brother went off to the military and ended up with an injury. He has PTSD, but he was a brave man. He did a lot of good things and I have a beautiful niece. My sister went to college and I have another beautiful niece by her. I have a gay brother whoâs a little crazy. I looked around and was able to see thereâs enough good in our lives at this point that by me telling my mother, after I went to therapy about it, she wasnât going to blame herself. If youâre a good parent, you typically blame yourself for things, itâs just what you do, but I knew she wouldnât, and she didnât. I called her. Unfortunately, I wasnât able to be there with her. I hate texting or talking over the phone when it comes to important things, but it was on my plate, in the forefront with my therapist, and I knew that I needed to make it go away as soon as possible and it wasnât something that I could drag out. I was also going through a relationship break-up. When I had the conversation with my mom, she cried. She was devastated to know that I had held onto it for so long, but it was almost a cry of joy as though I was letting go of it. She apologized, said that she was sorry that it had happened to me, and she never once said that she blamed herself. The fact that she didnât, I knew that what I did was right. And, here I am, four years later, Iâm very thankful for the way I was able to hold onto it and be there for my mom, when she needed me.
 âMy mom was pretty much single for about twenty years, although she dated a guy for a while a few years back. We never thought that she would get married because she got married once to my older brotherâs father. It wasnât really an arrangement, but it was a teenage thing, and he was abusive as well. Then, she ended up with my father, who was extremely abusive. He put her in the hospital and did a lot of crazy things. He broke into her house after she threw him out. He always denied me because my whole family are gingers-all redheads. When I was a kid, I was 100 percent pure blonde. He used to say that I wasnât his kid, âheâs not my kid, heâs not my kid.â His family pretty much said the same thing and it was because my genes were like my motherâs. We look very similar. As a kid, she had blonde hair which turned into sandy brown. I never thought that my mother would put herself through the pain of a relationship again and thought that she was going to die alone, but she got married in August, and it was a huge shock to all of us. She told me that she was dating a guy for four years and she was completely unhappy. He wasnât abusive physically, but emotionally, he never wanted to do anything with her, and thatâs all my mom ever wanted. It wasnât hard for me to see my mom because I knew she was a strong enough woman to kick his ass out when she felt like it was too much for her.
 âAt the time of my break-up, we were really there for each other. She decided that it was time for Chuck to go. She threw him out, lost a bunch of weight (she was overweight for a long time), and did it in a healthy way. She asked me what she could do, I wouldnât say Iâm the healthiest person, but I try to focus on fitnessâitâs a stress reliever for meâand she lost 90 pounds in a year. Right around the time, I came out with my therapist and talked to my mom. My mom had told me that she had been seeing a guy, which was very strange for me because she had just gotten out of a relationship and my momâs not that type of person. But, I was happy for her and this name âJuniorâ kept coming up, and I thought it sounded familiar, like she had talked about him before. She had been best friends with him for the past three years, just very good friends, and everyone used to say, after she split up with Chuck, that she should date Junior, and she would say âhell no, itâs not going to happen.â She ended up getting together with this guy, I had never met him for about the first year, although I had seen some pictures of him. I told my mom that he was not a man that I would have ever expected her to be with. He has a biker past and used to be a biker. He has a long ponytail, balding in the front, with a long ponytail of hair in the back. I thought âokay, I donât know about this guy - my mom has two gay sons-this isnât going to go over well.â Thatâs where my judgment came into play and thatâs why you never judge a book by its cover.
 âTwo and a half years pass and my mom had told him several times that she would not get married again. He proposed to her, even though she said that, and she said yes to him. She called me, told me she was getting married, and I almost fell off my friggin chair. At that moment, I knew that my mom was happy, sincerely happy. I was 28 years old when she told me, and my whole life, my mom had never been happy. So, this was a huge, huge relied to me. The months went by and she picked the worst friggin week to get married. It was the last week of school during my finals and, again, she lives 700 miles away, but I hiked my ass up there to the wedding. I used to play this song, itâs cheesy I know, itâs called âIâll beâ by Reba McEntire, because, again, going back to holding things in, not to cause harm to my mom, that was our song. I believe it came out when I was 8 years old. To me, I was the only man to actually, even though my brothers were there, hold my mom up and be strong for her. Thatâs basically what the song is about, that no matter what, youâll be a shoulder for her. Surprisingly, I didnât cry at the wedding when the song came on, but I played it for my mom because ( itâs hard for me to say this), I told her that this is the last time Iâm going to have to play this song because she finally has somebody who cares about her. I donât think I cried because I was relieved. I try not to get emotional with my mom because sheâs freakin sappy as hell, and sheâll make me cry so I donât get emotional with her.
 âAs stressed as I am right now with school and my finances-sometimes I donât know how Iâm going to pay my next bill, I do have people around me that if I ever need anything, Iâll never go without, Iâm the happiest Iâve ever been in my life. Thereâs so much good in the world and I believe good things do happen for people. People like my mom, who lived her whole life miserable, and my biggest fear was that she was going to die unhappy, and now I know that wonât happen and Iâm at peace. Your past doesnât always have to be a bad thing. I think that itâs appreciation for life and appreciation for anybody around me. So, thatâs pretty much my past.â
 You talked about carrying this for years to protect your mother; you felt that she wasnât in a space where she could hear that without it having some sort of negative impact. How did that impact your life and your relationship holding onto that? Were you aware that it was having an impact? Did it?
 âI look back, and I donât think that it affected me in my childhood. I still, to this day, believe that if it would have come out, it would have affected me worse because of my mother. Iâm not saying that she wasnât strong enough to handle it, but I couldnât see her hurting anymore. I donât have it in me. I donât have a mean bone in my body. I felt it was cruel, and I couldnât do that to my mother. I did have some behavioral issues and was diagnosed with ADHD when I was three, but who isnât a little hyper. I did have some behavioral issues in high school and Iâve wondered if that caused them, but I donât really know. I donât act out like that. I think it was me just trying to get attention. I donât blame myself for it happening, but as a child you do wonder why it happened; you donât know why, and the fact that I wasnât really accepted by my father, he said I wasnât his, and his family was the same way towards me. It came to the point where Christmas cards would come addressed to Dustin, David (wasnât his, and he knew that), and Danielle, and my name wasnât even on the card. I think, maybe in that aspect, my behavioral issues may have come from that, acting out just to get attention.
 âI think where it really came into play was when I was an adult. I was on my own, I was my own person, and what has happened in my past starts to really show on who I am. I was in a very loving, caring relationship. We traveled together, we put each other through college, and we had the time of our lives. Near the end of the relationship, there were some trust issues. I didnât trust him and then he didnât trust me, and it was back and forth. We lived together for three months after we split up, and thatâs when our communication opened up. He was the first person that I ever told that I had been bottling something up for a very long time. I remember huddling down on the living room and just balling for the first time, in a very long time, about it. I didnât tell him exactly what had happened, but told him that there were some things that happened to me that I needed to talk about and I think that they really affected our relationship. The reason why I said this is because there would be several months when we wouldnât have sex, but he would watch porn. Initially, it was that whole childhood thing coming back to me, where I didnât think I was good enough, I wasnât worth it, and it was all me. I look back and wonder if I had come out with that, would have our relationship been better. His actions had nothing to do with my past, and I didnât think that I wasnât good enough, but I had this feeling that I canât really describe, but when you lay down at night, you have a person that you love next to you, you try to make love to them, and they just rollover, maybe itâs just because they had a long day. It hurt because I was afraid of rejection and not being wanted. In the past, bad things had happened to me. I think that if I had come out with my past, I wouldnât have constantly had those thoughts that I wasnât good enough or this person is going to leave me for somebody else. Those thoughts didnât really come into play until the last year of our relationship.
 âI had gotten a promotion at work and we moved to a new city, two hours away. It was just the two of us, he didnât have his family, and my family was even farther away, and we didnât have friendships around us like we used to. It was just him and I and, when I wasnât getting attention, it was because of my past that was causing me to think that I wasnât good enough and it led to actions that Iâm not proud of. Some would consider cheating actions. Ultimately, from his actions and my actions, our relationship ended. That was the moment that I knew that I had to let go of this. At this point, my mom was strong enough, we had done very good things as children growing up, we were now well respecting adults, and it was starting to destroy my life. This person may not think this, but I will always love my ex with all of my heart. I said to him that not everyone is the same and not everyone has the same past, so donât ever carry this with you, thinking that someone else is going to cause you harm or someone else has the same intentions. I told him not to go into another relationship, basing it on our relationship. At the end, it was trust issues, and I didnât want him to think that he couldnât trust somebody else. He asked me why I couldnât or didnât talk to him about it and why I kept it bottled up. Iâm not saying he didnât have a bad life or things didnât happen to him, but I donât think he understood that itâs not something you can just talk about. Basically, he said that he couldnât trust anyone because I kept this from him for so long and that I destroyed our relationship. All I wanted was for him to go into another relationship, knowing that every person is different. Ultimately, what was important to me was his happiness and not to think that what happened in our relationship. Just because I kept this bottled up in me, he should not think that someone else has the same thing; they may not. I wished that those things went differently because I really think we would still be together. You canât look at your past and try to change it. You have to look at your future, and realize what your past was and shape it for your future. Thatâs what I do now.
 âThere are times now that I think about what happened to me, but itâs not in the aspect about being sad about it. Itâs typically when Iâm trying to analyze something else, maybe in a relationship, with school, maybe Iâm having a bad day, when I get super depressed, or someone around me has been hurt. Thatâs when I think back and say I am who I am today because of what happened, could I have been a better person, or could I have not hurt those that I have hurt in the past. Other than that, I take on every new day like itâs the first day of my life. You canât change what happened yesterday â thatâs my motto in life, you just canât. People say that you see these things, something different inspires everyone. Itâs a new year, a new me â that bullshit. I see that and I think âwhy do you have to wait until January 1st to change.â What goes wrong yesterday, doesnât have to be tomorrow or today. I donât know if I would ever think that way if my past wasnât the way that it was. I donât think I would have a new appreciation for different things. You would think that Iâve always known what my past was. I carried it with me for many years, but I didnât start having that outlook until I was able to let go of my past. Itâs funny I would think it would go the other way, but I think itâs because itâs rejuvenating for me, like I literally have a second chance at life.
 âItâs funny to stand in the mirror when youâre in your mid-twenties and actually be able to be happy with the person thatâs standing there, and not really being like that for a very long time. No one would have ever imagined it because I was a very fun, outgoing person, but it was because I channeled my emotions through other people.
 âWhen I lost my grandfather (my momâs dad), it was very hard for me, but I barely even cried. I thought âwhy didnât I cry and where are my emotions?â Again, it comes back to the things that happened to me as a child and I got so good at suppressing my emotions. I channeled them through others; me consoling others was how I showed my emotion. I cry now more than I did when I was a kid, but it feels good. Itâs nice to actually let my feelings go, instead of constantly consoling others for their feelings.â
 Where did you find yourself at the end of your relationship? You mentioned that you lived together for three months, as he moved on and you were left with you, what did that look and feel like?
 âIt was super frickin scary. For the first time in my life, and itâs sad that I have to think about money and finances as being a part of your life but, on an everyday basis, you have to be able to get by. For the first time in my life, I was financially stable. I knew in that manner, I used to say âI donât need no man.â It was me basically trying to be strong for myself because I knew what I was about to encounter was going to be the hardest thing I ever did. It wasnât about losing my relationship, but finding who I was. Some people might not understand, but not knowing who you are is a scary, scary thing because tomorrowâs not promised and, if you never find yourself, thatâs pretty shitty. Thatâs not a good way to live. I wasnât unhappy living that way. I coped and dealt with it. Internally, I wasnât doing what was right for myself because I constantly put everyone else before me, always, no matter what. At that time, I had no one to put before me. My family was two hours away. I had a career that was basically calling my name as a retail manager, working crazy hours. I only had myself at that time. Obviously, I had my family, but they were away. At that time, I didnât have anybody else to make me happy.
 âIâll never forget, the three months that we were living together, but not together, I donât recommend it for anybody because it was extremely hard. He started seeing this guy, we knew it was just going to be a fling, and he was 20 years old, very young. It was more of a âfeel goodâ guy. He was moving to Raleigh and the guy wasnât going, so it was going to become a relationship, it was just fun at that point. I think it was a way to deal with his emotions. We had this agreement that it was okay. Obviously, I wasnât his boss and I wasnât his boyfriend anymore but, out of respect for me and respect for us, I asked him not to have him in our apartment. That was good for about a month and a half until his friend, who was an asshole, a very good friend of his (I used to call him that all the time because of my first impression of him), he was a very outspoken guy and he told Doug that it was his house too, so he could do whatever the hell he wanted. Thatâs just a typical thing that Dave would say. Doug took it to heart and, I came home from work one night, and he told me that so and so was coming over and I said âno, heâs not coming over.â We fought and screamed at each other, and this was the first time we had ever had a fight. He threw a punch at me, and heâs not that type of person at all. In that moment, I realized that I created something from my actions and taunting. I realized that something had to change. I had just made this person hit me, and Iâm not saying that it was my fault, but my actions were taunting enough that he felt the right to protect himself. At that moment, I knew that we had to get out of there or we would end up really hating each other, and thatâs not who I am. Iâm not a taunting person. Iâm not an aggressive person. I wasnât physically aggressive, but I was very strongly emotionally aggressive. At that moment, I knew that I needed to find myself. We didnât talk for about two weeks.
 âFor the last three weeks we were living together, we would sit out on the deck every night, drink, smoke, and bullshit. He was the closest person to me. At that time, he was literally still the love of my life, singlehandedly the most important person in my life besides my family, even though we were split up. I knew that if I didnât talk about something, remotely related to my past or trying to find myself, I donât think I would have ever been able to open up to a therapist, somebody I didnât even know. I hate that I left him with that, but it had to come out of me, somehow, someway before we went our separate ways. It was probably a week before we split up that I told him that we needed to talk and I needed to share some things that I had never shared with anybody, and I shared things with him, not in detail because I didnât want him carrying that with him. I didnât want him to question himself - how did I not know, how come he didnât tell me sooner, why wasnât I there for him? I didnât want him to think that, while I was holding it in while we were together, that it was his fault. I also wanted him to know that there were a lot of things bothering me, masking who I am as a person. I was able to share those things with him, he was able to console me, and we were able to set aside the fact that we were split up. We were able to talk like we were together, like I was sharing something with my partner, and he was there for me. He even went to therapy with me twice. Iâve thought about it and he probably thought that I was bringing him to therapy to get closer to him but, I let him know a year later, it was for me and that I couldnât talk without him. He was the closest person in my life and I knew that I couldnât have my mother there.
 âAfter my relationship ended, my ex moved to Raleigh. He probably is one of the single most important people in my life. I donât think heâll ever realize that, and I donât ever want a relationship with him again. I think that we had our time in life and we really shaped each other as people. I donât know that if we were still together today, if I would have come out with it because that person made me happy enough that I was okay with the person that I was being and I was okay putting on that fake smile. The moment that I realized that I didnât have anybody else there for me was the moment that I knew the only person that I could turn to was the person that I looked at every day, and that was me and I had to make a change there.
 âWe split up in May 2015 and in September, I traveled to Colorado, which we almost moved to. I love that state. We used to vacation there all the time. I flew out there all by myself and my mother was worried to death; I donât know why - I was in my twenties. I landed in Denver, got a rental car, slept for about six hours, and then drove eleven hours to Yellowstone. I spent three nights there and didnât speak to a single person. I didnât say a single word. That was after I had finished my therapy sessions and I was literally like a new person. For anyone who has anything going on in their life, I recommend a silent retreat. You may laugh and think itâs funny, but it made me aware. Your other senses are extremely heightened. I heard sounds that were probably not even there or they were three miles away. I was able to meditate for three days and didnât have any thoughts. I heard birds sing and things that are taken for granted every day.
 âI took a video of the song âBeautiful Lifeâ as I sang it on the side of a mountain in Colorado. I might still have that first video of myself because I was always so self-coconscious; I could pick the best picture and post it or share it. A video really shows your personality and who you are. I realized that from that day forward, the person that you look at in the mirror is the person that you see. I wasnât going to hide anything anymore. I wasnât going to put on a fake smile. If Iâm pissed off, youâre going to know that Iâm pissed off. If Iâm happy, youâre going to know Iâm happy. Thereâs no more clouded judgment for emotions. To hit day, I can say that Iâve lived up to that. Thereâs nothing I hide, no matter how big or how small it is I talk about it and I encourage others to do so, too. It doesnât matter what it is, if we keep it inside of us, it shouldnât be there. I make a joke, now that Iâm in nursing school, the only things that belong inside of us is our organs. Our emotions should never be inside of us. We should always express our emotions, whether theyâre negative or positive. If theyâre negative, express them in a setting that accepts negative emotions, where you can get help. Never hold back the person that you truly are because it will haunt you whether you think it or not, or it will cause harm to you or others around you. When I think about my relationship, I donât think it caused harm, but I regret that I hurt the person who truly loved me. That is what is hardest for me, not that the relationship ended. We all go through things and it could have been a lot worse. I guess hurting somebody because of my past and my suppressed emotions, that they had no right being hurt over. No matter how big or small, hiding your emotions will hurt somebody else. At the end of the day, the most important person is yourself, but you canât cause harm to others, unintentionally, because youâre keeping your emotions tied in. Thatâs basically where Iâm at.â
 What have you learned about yourself through this process?
 âIâm more fun than I ever thought I could be. I used to not think that I was very fun. I used to think that people just told me I was fun or I just tried to be fun, but Iâm actually a fun person. I can fit into any crowd. I think it comes back to just being a human being and being a good person. The one thing that I also realized is that I have very good communication skills, which I never thought I had. Again, I suppressed them for so long and didnât share my emotions, and Iâve had the opportunity to help others from my past experiences. Some people are probably tired of seeing it on my Instagram. I always talk about loving yourself, being a good person and loving yourself. Those who I grew up with, probably look at it, and think that Iâm conceded because when I was a teenager, I was very stuck on myself, but it was because I was trying to find something good about myself. I always saw my imperfections, whether it was a hair out of place, my smile, my teeth, it was always imperfections. I always tried to look my best, I pressed my jeans at age fifteen, put gel in my hair about four times (worse than my mother getting ready), and people used to say that I was conceded.
 âIf you judge a book by its cover and look at my Instagram, you may think that Iâm full of myself, but itâs because I love who I am and I try to inspire others. I posted something today, and again I donât believe in new year, new me thing, but whatever works for other people, go for it. If you want to wait until January 1st to change, just make a change. I posted âYou are the change that you want to see in the world. Itâs a new year, make it a great one.â Thatâs how I live every day. Every morning when I wake up, no matter how bad the day before was, if Iâm scared to death of a test coming up, or my car payment is late and theyâre calling me, I never let that effect my day anymore because I have a car, a roof over my head, food, and my health. I guess my senses have been so heightened going through the things that I have, Iâm much more aware of myself and people around me. My family and friends are all back home and they donât get to see me very often. My goal in life now is to make those around me happy as I am with myself because life is a beautiful thing. As corny as it sounds, you see these motivational things, it really is a beautiful and precious thing. Sometimes I think people think weâre just robots and we act on things as bad people. I canât get it out enough âstop for a minute and look around you.â Weâre often in a crowded city like New York, and all we see are people rushing around to get somewhere. Everybody has their own problems and everybody has something in their head, thatâs either a challenge or something thatâs good that happened for them. Weâre so hyper-focused on the moment or ourselves that we donât realize that there are so many people around us that arenât happy. I want people to be happy, not fake happy, or to just laugh or smile. I donât care how big, tall, small, heavy, tiny, or if you have bad teeth, I donât care what it is about you, you should never wake up and be unhappy with yourself. To me, itâs just a miserable way to live.â
 What would you say to your younger self as the adult you are today?
 âDonât be so stubborn. I try not to think about my younger self sometimes, but I guess to my younger self, I would probably say âItâll be okayâ because I never thought it would be. I never knew what was going to happen when I was younger. I thought, shit, Iâm never going to get a job, Iâm never going to go to college, Iâm never going to have a car. Iâm not going to say that I grew up with nothing, but I didnât grow up around educated people. Nobody went to school in my family. Nobody really made the best of their potential. I wouldnât say that I was doomed, but I thought thatâs who I was going to be. When I looked around myself, I thought, oh my God, I gotta do something, I gotta get out of here. Looking back at my younger self, I was very judgmental of my family, not my immediate family (my siblings and my mom), but my momâs family and my dadâs family. I was extremely judgmental of them because I was scared to death that I was going to end up like them. Looking back at my younger self, I would say not to be so judgmental, everything will be okay, youâre an individual person and you make your own decisions. Once you become old enough to think for yourself, thatâs when youâre in control of your life. Thatâs when things will happen out of your control, but your life in general and outlook is solely yours. When I was younger, I never thought that. I thought that I was doomed and that I was never going to make anything of myself and would end up down this road to where I didnât have the potential that I needed.
 âIâm going to be thirty years old in April and itâs crazy because I look at myself and, physically and mentally, Iâm in the best shape of my life minus the balding hair. I feel like Iâm the best I have been in my life. I know that some people dread being thirty and a lot of people that I talk to say that itâs all downhill from here, but I donât think it is for me. I feel like I just started out and Iâm excited. I feel like thirty is going to be my forty. Iâm in the prime of my life. Iâm happy. I have a career thatâs on the horizon and I will be a nurse at the end of the summer. A lot of good things are happening right now. I have a very caring partner that has his own issues, not nearly what I have or my past, but everyoneâs experience of their past is just as big to the person thatâs feeling it, no matter what it is. I guess my challenge that I have in the forefront, is an exciting one, to help my partner work through things heâs been fostering for a long time, not necessarily during childhood, but he lost a partner when they were in college and he blames himself. Iâm actually excited. He has a great career and is a great person. Heâs been there for me and we have a very good understanding relationship of each other. Right now I feel like Iâve put his problems on hold because I really canât do that right now while going through nursing school and deal with that at the same time. Weâve talked about his problems and he knows that he needs to get help for the things that bother him. I guess itâs exciting for me, knowing that my career is about to take off and my focus can shift on helping another person that I truly care about and knowing that weâll get through whatâs to come. As hard as it will be for him, Iâm excited because I know that he will be a better person at the end of it. Thatâs where weâre at now.â
 Do you have a favorite quote or song lyric that youâd like to share?
 âMusic is my driving force, along with photography. I canât go to the gym without it. I canât drive to work without it. I would say that my favorite quote, I donât even know if itâs a quote, but I remember my mom saying to me as a kid, something along the lines of, and I kind of put it into my own words. I should actually Google it. It may not even be a quote and, if itâs not, maybe I should coin it . . . âEveryone is a beating heart on the same journey in life.â Thatâs the motto I live by. Weâre all seeking happiness. Weâre all seeking one thing, and itâs not be unhappy and to just live our lives. My mom used to always say that when I was a kid. She always told me not to judge anybody because you never know what theyâre going through. She would say, âEveryone is a beating heart on the same journey in life,â and itâs so true. Thereâs nothing more true. Nobodyâs on a different journey. Everybody is on the same journey and itâs to be happy and they want to be a good person. They donât want to struggle. They donât want to financially struggle. They want a good career. At the end of the day, they donât want to have worries. I have yet to meet a person in my life that doesnât seek that same dream. I would say thatâs my favorite quote.â
 How has it felt to talk about these experiences and emotions with me?
 âI havenât really talked about my emotions in a very long time. I do share my emotions, in the moment of how Iâm feeling with the people around me. I donât think Iâve ever actually sat back and reflected in a conversation on the progress of the things that Iâve been through in one sitting. I think about things here and there. Iâve posted my New Yearâs post and resolutions. Every new year, I sit and think, âthis wasnât a bad year, these things have changed, and Facebook reminds you of what you posted several years ago. I am able to see my worries change and how things have gotten better. Honestly, I appreciate it. It was very eye opening for me and itâs a good start to a new year.â
 Do you think itâs possible that, by sharing your experiences and feelings today with me, someone listening or reading it, could potentially benefit from your courage and vulnerability?
 âThere are millions of people in the world and I would be happy if it even helped one person. I say that all the time. Youâre probably only the third person Iâve ever talked to when it comes to my childhood in depth a little bit, but I do share with those around me that are having issues. I say that my life is like a Lifetime movie; yaâll wouldnât imagine the things that Iâve been through. When you think that something is really bad, just think how good it could be if you just talked about it or helped yourself. The Michael Jackson song, Man in the Mirror, Iâve never heard a more true song in my life. Itâs clichĂ©, but everyday thatâs the only person youâre going to see, even if you donât leave your house, youâre still only going to see yourself. If you have something that youâre bottling up, whether itâs your past or your childhood, or even if youâre not bottling something up, if you donât wake up happy, youâre the only person that can change that. Hopefully, that can help somebody.â
 Thank you.
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What has been one of the most challenging things youâve experienced or are currently experiencing?
âOne of the most challenging things that Iâve ever experienced . . . As a child I remember being happy, joyous, and free, at least those are the videos Iâve seen of myself, but I donât remember much about that time. I do remember being pretty outgoing, sociable, and looking to connect with people. When I was around ten or eleven years old, my father was taken out of our house in a straitjacket due to depression and he wasnât eating or taking care of himself. My dad was gone for most of my life as a young child and then my mom was always working, and I was kind of left to my own devices and trying to find my place in the world. I was always kind of seeking for approval, love, or validation from outside.
âWhen I was about ten or eleven, I got involved with this gang of kids called Mixed Mafia; it stood for mixed races. They were in their late teens and early twenties, rebel punks, and all these different types of people, and I felt like I had found my tribe. They were accepting and gave you drugs and alcohol. It seemed like a good place to be. My friend, Rob, had invited me to gang parties and I thought it was exciting. I felt cool that I was hanging out with these older kids. They were aware of me and that wasnât something that I had at my house because my mom was always working and my dad was in the Institute of Living at that time. I continued to take part in this gang. At the beginning, it was just a party kind of thing. I think I was going into sixth or seventh grade around the time, and they were accepting. Slowly, but surely, they told me that they needed to make me into a man and, after the fun parties, me and two of my close friends, my buddies Jim and Jeff, they would tell us that we needed to receive beatings and they would make us into men. I stuck around for them and they would have us do various things like they would put us in a line and theyâd have the older girls kick us in the chest or something like that, and they would say that we couldnât fight back, we had to take it. I remember having some attraction to the girls and it made me feel really, I donât know. It made me feel like shit, but I felt that I was getting some sort of attention.
âMy good friend, Jeff, at the time, he was supposed to have his initiation into what was called One Mafia, which was the younger kids of the Mixed Mafia. First, they burned a WM on his arm with a hanger and then he was supposed to fight a kid. If he won, he would gain the respect of the older individuals. This was my best childhood friend, and he lost the fight. I remember sitting there looking at him, and they took an iron, heated it up, and burned his WM off. I remember seeing the skin bubble. He was about twelve at the time, and I remember seeing him crying and looking at me. Years before it was soccer, playing videogames, and sleepovers. I remember him looking at me, crying, and I didnât show any emotion and I looked away. I thought I needed to be tough and wanted to be cool in front of the older kids. Jeff faded away from the gang and so did my buddy, Jim. I think I had won a fight against a kid and I was told that I could keep in, but I never wanted to fight. I was always so scared, so scared.
âSlowly but surely, the gang expanded and they would have me fight my closer friends; they told us that we had to knock each other out. I couldnât fight. I was scared. I remember I was terrified when I was at that personâs house, and these were all friends and older brothers. Most of my friends started to fight back, but I didnât, and the beatings got worse and worse for me. When they fought back, they got some sort of respect, but it just wasnât in me. I was scared. At one point, I thought it was the only love I ever knew, this attention that they were giving me and thatâs why I kept on going back. Sometimes they would have parties and make me sit in the corner and put piles of trash on me and tell me that I couldnât leave from this place. I would sit there and they would laugh at me. At this point, my outlook on life started to drastically change. At that time, my mom had just got diagnosed with cancer and my dad was getting out of the Institute of Living. He had had electroshock therapy there and he wasnât really talking much; he kind of just paced in the house. Our house was kind of a really dark place to be at. So, I didnât really have anywhere to go. It was either go to this place where you might get a couple of minutes of fun and then the abuse or sit in my house where no one even knew you were there, while my mom was starting her path of surgeries.
âI remember it was about a year or two into the gang, and I was still their main thing to beat up on. I had had all these supposed initiations to make me into a man. I remember most of my childhood friends were gone and I was part of this thing, and they would just beat me up. I remember going over to my close friend Billâs house, and his older brothers were the main gang members. I remember being so terrified when they came back home. We went up into the attic, and they said, âMike, this is your final initiation. Either we give you two hours of beating or we shave your head.â I had long hair, and they were going to shave it with a Bic razor, and I didnât want that to happen. So, about an hour after the beatings happened, I couldnât take it anymore, I walked outside and tried to run, and one of the kids tackled me down, pulled me into a chair, and duct-taped my arms to the chair. All these kids were walking around, drinking beers, older kids and older girls, my good friend Bill and his older brothers, they took out the Bic razor and when you have long hair, you canât shave it with a Bic razor, they proceeded to use the Bic razor to shave my head and it gouged my head. I remember tears coming down my face. I remember looking at Bill in the eyes, just like I had looked Jeff in the eyes, like âplease, please save meââscreaming without words because I couldnât say a single thing and I was just crying. They had made up this name, Mikaloo, and they said âMikaloo, cuts all over your headâ and they continued to shave my head and walk around and laugh at me. I think I was only thirteen at the time. They walked around and laughed at me, and I just sat there. I remember holding on to Billâs gaze and I could see his older brother looking at him in the eyes, like that peer pressure that I had felt with Jeff. I wanted Bill to do something so bad, and I could tell that some of the people in the group thought they had had gone too far. As blood and tears are dripping down my forehead, they were gouging my head pretty deep and they were spraying hair spray into the wounds to make the bleeding stop. I remember looking at Bill, still crying, crying pretty hysterically, I donât think there was much sound coming out. I remember Bill looking away and walking inside. I knew the pressure he felt. I knew it. I had been there. Instantly, in that moment, I remember just shutting off and there wasnât a tear that fell out of my eye anymore. It felt like Mike was gone. Mike was dead. I basically had that cold, emotionless look in my face, and all joy, curiosity, and everything was taken from me. I remember just sitting there and I had some patches of hair, dried blood, and they continued to laugh at me, and I just sat and there was nothing left. I didnât feel a thing and didnât think about anything. It was like I had left Mike. Mike was gone.
âI donât know how I got home, but when I got home, my mom had just gotten out of a chemo session and she was sick in bed and I donât know what my dad was doing; he had just gotten a job at Staples to keep the roof over our heads. I remember sitting next to my mom, as she was nauseous in bed. I think it was the last thread of me, holding on to Mike, and I just sat there and I needed her to recognize that clearly I was changed. I had dried blood all over my head and patches of hair. I donât know what happened, but she wasnât able to give me any sense of security. She wasâI donât knowâa lot had happened with my father. I donât know how my dad didnât know. Clearly, I was much different. Obviously, now I had a shaved head and was pretty unresponsive to anything, but my father was pretty unresponsive to anything, as well, and thereâs a long story behind my dad. I think when my mom looked away, she thought we couldnât burden the family like this, my dad was bringing in money, and she didnât want to send him back to the hospital. I donât know what the thought process was. I think she was overwhelmed. I donât know what it was. There was really no love given and I was just shoved off to my room.
âAfter that, it was pretty much I didnât care about anything anymore. I had a lot of external anger and the couple of words that I would say were âI donât give a fuck.â At one point, I thought I was going to kill those kids who had done it, but I took it all on me, it was all on me. I just shut down. From the moment that Billâs eyes left or the moment when that boy hit my head, I just remember losing everything that was Mike; maybe I didnât even really know Mike. I had always been seeking outside. I just remember losing that joy. That toxic masculinityâto be a man. Those three words, âto be a manââwhat does that even mean? I think the definition I had formed has been the most debilitating, shameful experience of my entire life.
âI know that for the next ten years or so, I started to bully kids, but I stopped doing that. I didnât want that to be a part of my life and I tried to uplift, but there was nothing inside. There were no joy or feelings inside, there was complete emotionless. Any way to turn off the depression and the darkness that was all consuming, so thatâs what I didâI drank and I drank and I drank. That worked for a while but, for the most part, it was bouts of depression and any way to escape because I couldnât escape when they had me all taped down.
âEventually, I had made some forgiveness to those people. I called up two of them when I was about twenty-three, and one of the guys said that he had nightmares about what he had done and the other individual, the first thing he said when he picked up the phone was, âMikaloo, you little bitch,â and that was ten years later. At that point, I had a lot of different struggles. I ended up going to jail for selling some weed and different things. That was my first breath of air, a structured environment. It made me feel like a baby. After I got out, I finally found heroin, and that was finally the answer to all my problems. I could shut off everything and I felt okay, and there was no depression attached to it; you just had to do it all day.
âThat kid, who had originally invited me to the gang, Rob, ended up dying of an overdose. I would attempt to get sober here and there. The other kid, Bill, who was one of my best friends, called me and said he was so sorry for not doing anything, and this was about fifteen years later. He eventually ended up hanging himself; that was this past Christmas. A lot of that stuff was pretty crazy, but the heroin was definitely the end-all be-all for me. I remember just over two years ago, February 12, 2017, he had called me, and it was this recurring theme of emotionless disconnection and, obviously, it was drug-fueled this time. He had asked me to use some heroin. He got into my car and he overdosed in the car around 2 pm on a Thursday in February, it was kind of a gray day. I didnât feel anything because of the heroin, and I was looking for a place to dump his body. He was blue, he wasnât breathing, and ten minutes had passed. I remember feeling so cold. I hadnât felt anything in years. Something pulled on me, I donât know what it was, a spirit source, God, angels, whatever you want to call it, told me to go to an urgent care center on Route 44 in Avon. I pulled in, they Narcaned him twice, they said he was dead, they put a tube down his throat, and they finally got his heart beating. He had survived that and the next day, I decided to get clean. That was part of the journey and the many stories.
âThese past two years have been me trying to uncover all that. I try to talk to myself as if my parents had been there. I know they did the best they could. During that timeframe, my mom had died, right before I went to jail, my dad lost the house, and thereâs been so many different things. These past two years have been Mike again, the story of finding Mike or uncovering Mike. Itâs been a painful process, some of the things that I havenât wanted to look at.Â
âThis past winter my father had a mental breakdown. He lives in North Carolina where he rented a room. He would call me every day, telling me that he wanted to die. My father is a good soul and wants to make people happy, and he hasnât been happy himself. Heâll give the shirt off his back to someone. I remember being down in North Carolina with my sister, who lives out west. Since my mom died, we hadnât seen each other. When we spoke, we decided that we needed to go see our dad. We went out there and he said, âMaybe Iâll see you and maybe I wonât.â He was basically locked in his room, not eating. And then I got the call that Bill had taken his own life, and still I didnât feel much of anything. I think there was a protective haze over me or cognitive dissonance. I just couldnât feel.
âI went through a really hard process while in North Carolina. My dad was not doing well. He was living in an unsafe environment. We had to do a lot of crazy stuff, and eventually got him into assisted living, using his disability to help pay for it. He still called me every day, and just wanted to die. I remember going down to North Carolina again about a month later and, as I walked into the assisted living place, my dad was barely eating an ice cube. He looked at me so scared. I knew those eyes. Iâve seen those eyes. Those are the eyes that Jeff gave to me when he was receiving the beatings and the eyes that I gave to Bill during the head shaving. I knew those eyesâso scared. The most scared you could ever see anybody in your life. I saw my dad like that, and I know my dad went through a lot when he was a young kid. I think he lost himself along the way, too. I hugged him and he had lost a lot of weight, and weighed about ninety pounds. I felt like I wanted to cry so much. I never got that love from my dad and I knew that I needed to give it to him, but I didnât have much in me. I felt like so much wanted to come out, just hugging him while he was so scared. He was so ashamed, ashamed of how he looked, where he was at in life, and one little tear came out, and that was it. We talked and he didnât say much. He just looked at me really, really scared.
âMy mornings were waking up to him, calling and saying those things. I couldnât sleep, and I know he couldnât sleep. I ended up writing a letter to Bill. I was writing it as if everyone was going to read it. I like to write, and I thought about writing it from an audience perspective, but I thought fuck that, Iâm writing it to Bill, and I just wrote to Bill. I knew he was right there with me, just like Rob because I was close to Rob too. I knew he was right there with me. I just talked to him. I typed and just talked to Bill. He said that he would watch over my dad. I talked to him and I knew that he was healed from all the shame he held in, all that abuse, and that frickin âbe a man, be tough.â He grew up with that. We all did. I cried. I really cried. That was this winter and I was just getting back to feeling again. It felt good to let him know I was still there and forgave him. I had forgiven him the minute it happened, but I donât think he ever knew that. I knew that pressure, I know that pressure.
âThere are still other challenges now that Iâm facing, that Iâm uncovering. I have a little bit of light and starting to feel that people are good and caring. I know that those people who did that to me, I had this epiphany when I was twenty-two or twenty-three years old, that whatever you exert outwards, you exert inwards. So, whatever they had done to me was really their own pain and fears, and I realized they were suffering so much more than I was, to be able to do that to someone else. I had seen that and I tried to send them forgiveness and caring. I realized how much pain they must have been going through and how that manifested and whatever underlying fears and shame manifested in abuse to others. Itâs been slow uncovering and sometimes, when I get these glimpses of who Mike is now, the direction of my life, or I find myself trying to figure anyway to not, thereâs that most debilitating thingâhow I defined being a man. As I uncover myself, I still find that shame and ways to seek outside a lot. Iâve also had the conversations of everything with people who have been loving and caring, and Iâve been able to find people that see me as me, but sometimes Iâm still not there yet. There are voices of who youâre supposed to be that still ring in my head and I became my own abuser and victim for so long, for so long.â
Why do you think that is?
âI guess because that was the only love I ever knew, that type of abuse, and thatâs what I gave myself. Even when I got into sobriety, I felt like was doing enough or I wasnât working hard enough. Then I got into the gym and I was doing extensive workouts of beating myself up, saying âbetter, better, better, more, more more,â then I stopped doing that. I guess, for the most part, itâs what Iâve always known. Iâm still ashamed of myself and to some degree thatâs changed. Iâve done a lot of telling myself that I love myself. When I get deeper, that root of shame is still there. I believe itâs changing. I have faith. I do. I really do. Itâs funny, after I wrote that letter to Bill, my father ended up falling in the bathroom and cracking his back, and he called me and, after cracking his back, he said, âSometimes, Mike, we forget the good things in life.â Magically, out of nowhere, he started talking regularly and eating food again. Nothing external had changed. It was definitely like some miracle stuff. I donât know, maybe he was tapped into something greater. Itâs trying not to see with the eyes of everyone else because thatâs all I looked to define me for so long.â
Yeah, it sounds like your value, sense of worth, and identity were tethered to both your parents, who you felt unseen, unheard, and unvalued by because of their own predicaments and inability to give you their presence, and also the way that the gang, in the beginning, felt like a sense of belonging, community, and brotherhood, maybe the family you didnât have, became a degrading source of abuse for you that made you feel âless than,â and it sounds like you internalized that for years. You recognize that the roots of shame are deep. What are some of the identifiers of shame? What is it that youâre ashamed of?
âI donât know. If I was to go back before the gang stuff, I donât really have any memories before ten or eleven years oldâI always wondered about that. Like I said earlier, I remember seeing videos of when I was younger. The videos pretty much stopped when I was about four years old, and I donât really have any memories until about age ten. I had done some shamanic journeying work with this guy and he was doing some reiki on me towards the end, and he put his hands on me and I remembered a feeling or something that had happened between ages four and ten. I canât put my finger on the person, but I know that it was some older male figure that made me believe that to please him in some sort of sexual way was the right thing to do. I just remember feeling his hands on me and feeling a lot of anger, an immense amount of anger. Anger is not a word that I tend to identify with that much and usually the lack thereof leaves passion and different things when directed right. I havenât had that passion for as long as I can remember, maybe little tidbits here and there.
âAfter that experience with the sexual abuse, I became hypersexualized and oversexualized at a young age. Being told that being pleasing in that manner, at least thatâs what I internalized, was the way to acceptance or love or whatever, and also being really, really confused because that was part of me that I didnât even know at such a young age. So, everything with regard to sex became very convoluted to me. I guess thatâs the deeper part where the shame resides at now. Anyway, at such a young age to receive, feel, or give any sort of sexual pleasure or anything in all relationships caused me a lot of shame.â
Do you think your parents had any idea that you had experienced that?
âI donât know. There wasnât much intimacy in my family. I know my father had a very rough time growing up and he never understood the word âhappiness.â He said that he never understood what that meant. When I was around twelve or thirteen years old, I found out that my father was attracted to men and it really messed me up because I didnât know if he loved my mother. I didnât know a lot of things and I donât think I ever really knew myself because of the abuse earlier. All sexual attraction was just everywhere, to all people. I donât think my father knew and he did his best to stay away. I know that the abuse didnât come from him, but I know that, due to his own shame, he grew up in the Bible Belt of Oklahoma, the youngest of five brothers. He was a very sensitive kid growing up. He had polio as a young kid. A lot of different things happened to him. He told me that his first friend was my mom, at thirty-eight years old. He said that he didnât remember having a friend before that. My fatherâs story is kind of intertwined in there. I think he was afraid and he kept his distance from me.
âI donât know if they knew or not. I donât think at the time or how it was presented to me or how the abuse went on, I donât know if it was multiple people or not, but it was like âthis is how itâs supposed to be.â It wasnât presented in a way that âthis is wrong.ââ
At what point did you recognize that maybe it wasnât the way things were supposed to be?
âI think itâs something thatâs just coming to fruition because I donât think I was able to remember that. It was all blocked out. At the time, we were moving a lot. My dad was in and out of hospitals. I was on the road and unable to form any lasting friendships. I think it happened in between one of the moves. I canât really remember, but I donât know. I donât know if I did recognize that it was wrong. I wished it didnât happen.â
Do you feel responsible for it?
âNo, I donât feel responsible for it. No, no, no. I think the one thing I feel responsible for is probably the amount of shame I carry. Not only because of that, but more with the sexualized feelings towards everyone. When you asked that question at the beginning, âwhatâs the biggest challenge that you face now?ââthatâs it. When you asked it, I wasnât going to answer and I went down the path of the abuse, which Iâve said before in some instances. Iâve never really talked about the sexual stuff or my father too much but, for some reasonâI donât knowâthatâs been the most shameful parts. It felt like the nail in the coffin type of event to âbe a manâ type stuff, and then trying to navigate yourself intimately has been a process. Saying those words, thatâs only been said, it took me a long time to say those type of things.â
What words?Â
âI guess the sexualized feelings towards everyone. Iâd have to do a lot of analyzing and a lot of character checking before I said that type of stuff.â
How is the sexualizing everyone manifesting in your life or interfering with it?
âIt lets me keep an armâs distance from building relationships. I used to think I was good at intimacy, but I was always drunk or high. I guess itâs interfered a lot. Recently, I was able to engage in a relationship that was all about talking about everything that came up during everything basically. There was some healing there around physical intimacy because for me most of the time anything that was enjoyable physically would have to be with someone I didnât know and, if there was some sort of loving connection, physical intimacy was never enjoyable.â
Is sounds like the reverse of what it should be.
âYep. Luckily, in this past relationship, we were able to dialogue over everything, what came up during intimacy, and I told her everything. So, there was some healing there, but there was still some shame underneath, but I feel that Iâm close. There was some healing in that relationship, but I feel like I still have to uncover Mike. I continue to push away from that love because Iâm realizing that I need to . . . Iâll slowly but surely tell you everything thatâs gone on and then Iâll analyze your frickinâ reactions to everythingâs that happened, and see if youâre accepting in the relationship, very slowly, because ultimately I want it to be an open, vulnerable place, like thereâs no shadow or anything, but I guess it was still a way of seeking validation. Here are some little pieces of me, let me see how you react, let me see your facial responses to them. Now itâs my own journey to finding that within and finding that joy again. Even most of my sobriety has been about âto doâsâ and âget this done.â Thereâs never been a space where I can just go hiking with a friend and not overanalyze everything, but for the most part, itâs hard for me to tap into that sense of joy. Slowly but surely, itâs coming back. I believe that wholeheartedly.â
I think the process of trying to shut out or repress pain takes so much energy and effort that thereâs no capacity for joy. Perhaps, through the releasing of the feeling of pain, you have the contrasting element of the pain to experience the joy, but if youâre not feeling one, itâs hard to feel the other. Iâm sure you have years of accumulated pain internalized that is just beginning to surface and make sense to you. It sounds like through that experience of reiki, you came in contact with a part of your life that you had internalized and blocked out and had no memory of until that moment, which is a response the brain and the body have to allow you to survive a traumatic moment. Eventually, your guards come down and itâs safe for you to feel that; it surfaces.
âYeah, I guess itâs trying to feel safe.â
And still feel loved, heard, and seen. It sounds like youâre at a stage right now where youâre in the slow process of letting a little bit out here and there and seeing how people respond to it in order for you to know whether itâs okay to keep going, but Iâm sure that probably brings you face to face with fear often, fear of someone telling you youâre not good enough or showing you that youâre not good enough through their actions.
âAt one point, I was going to share all of this, even deeper, in front of a bunch of people just so I could shut down because I thought, inside, that I was going to do it for some sort of cathartic moment. But I think subconsciously what I was doing it for was to find that person in the room who was judging me so that I could say, âSee, this is why I donât do this.â Lately, Iâve been trying to find little pockets where thereâs an exchange, and Iâll reach for it sometimes, Iâll give little pieces or breadcrumbs, and if thereâs not that exchange back, I step back, but I donât want to have it like that always. I donât want to have to analyze the safety of a situation. I just want to be âhere I am.â Itâs a process.â
Itâs a processâthat really resonates with me . . . here I am. In short, thatâs the definition of authenticity, vulnerability and courageâhere I am; showing up and being seen. Youâve talked about losing a sense of connection to Mike, that you may or may not have come to know him at some point in your life, that he exists on some level, somewhere. Where is he? Where do you think he is?
âIt feels like heâs stuck inside this shelter, that adult Mike or Mike now, keeps him safe.â
Do you feel that itâs okay to let him out of that shelter?
âUmm. I donât know. I donât know if I even really know who he is and who Iâm letting out. Thatâs a tough question. I guess I see him when things are simple. I went on a hike this weekend with a buddy of mine. I knew he didnât really know all that, and I donât think he really needed to, so it was just me being able to have fun and laugh. I donât think Iâve laughed like that in a long time. There were no expectations.â
In that space, it was okay for him to be a part of that experience?
âYes. I was able to feel free.â
I imagine the shelter that you created for him was designed to protect him and keep him safe, but shelters can also become cages. If someone spends enough time in a cage, the hand thatâs trying to feed them or unlock the door gets met with a ferocious beast whoâs so deprived of connection, light, and sense of humanity that they almost appear to be a monster, and that can be terrifying to the hand thatâs trying to feed them or unlock the door.
âOr, itâs the other way around. Where the one holding the key to the door is the ferocious beast. And the light inside just wants to be integrated. I wrote a story about myself (and made it seem like it wasnât). It was prison, all black and white, and everyone was told that youâre not allowed to go to the light. Every day, he was told that he was a number, number 6752 or whatever, and everyoneâs a number. Every time the number walks outside the prison, he sees this light and everyone tells him that this all-encompassing society tells it, not even him, to stay away from the light, the light will take you off. So, he walks by the prison, he does what he has to do every day, number 6752. One day, heâs walking by the prison, he sees the light, and something inside says, âMaybe you should dance, maybe you should play music,â but he disregards it and keeps walking by the prison. Heâs always been told to avoid the light, avoid it, it will take you off line. He walks up to the prison one day, and heâs following the light inside the prison and feels discombobulated and doesnât know whatâs happening. The path outside in the black and white was clearâyou do this, you get this, this is how it works. Following this color and light was different and different thoughts were coming in. He approaches the prison and there are these huge prison guards, theyâre standing there, stone cold, with huge guns, and he looks at them in the eyes, he tries to get in and shakes them. Theyâre just sitting there, he takes off a layer, and he tries pulling at them and layers are just falling, falling, falling, falling, falling, and then thereâs nothing, no prison guards. Thereâs a door in front of him, he opens the door and there are all these eyes looking at him, everywhere. Theyâre so big and overwhelming, and filled with fear. They were just looking and staring at him, and he is just so scared and he canât move. There are hundreds of eyes everywhere and he says to the eyes, âI am you,â and the eyes disappear. He walks into the next door and âegoâ is written on the door. Heâs afraid and he canât get through it. It looks like this big, stainless steel door, unbreakable, unstoppable; he kicks it and it shatters. He walks in and then thereâs this light behind this prison door. Heâs almost there, he can almost touch it, and all these thoughts are flooding in. Outside the door is this big guard, he stares at him in the eyes and thinks âthereâs no way I can get through this.â The guard is so scary, he has so much fear raging in him, and heâs putting it all on number 6752, and It screams, âIâve gotten through all this, Iâm almost to the light, I can almost be there, but I canât face thisâ (this fear). He looks at the fear, stares at it, heâs about to walk away, and whenever he trusts the light, it always, leads him to feeling these thoughts again, these feelings again, and he looks at the fear and says âI love youâ and the jacket falls off the fear and thereâs a little boy curled up outside the light, outside the prison. It is saying to the little boy, âI love you,â and nothingâs happening and the little boy cries and cries and cries and looks up periodically, and cries, and just sits there and It says, âI faced the eyes, I faced the masks, I faced the ego, I faced the fear, and I tell you I love you and nothing happens.â The boy cries and cries and cries. Days pass, months pass, years pass, and It gets mad at the boy, screams at him, âAll this time I loved you,â and the boy cries and curls up in the corner. It sits with him again for years and says, âI love you.â Eventually the boy lifts up his head and says, âI love you, too,â and the door opens. The light, Itânow Himâand the boy all join together. He is scared because heâs been offline for so long. Where does he go now? What does he do? Heâs scared for the little boy. Eventually he feels some sort of song come up within him and He flies above the prison. Heâs scared that the little boy isnât safe, but he looks and there is no little boy, the light is gone, and heâs just flying above. Some other It, number 67425, is walking by, sees this bright light flying above the prison, something sparks in him. and he asks to go inside too.â
Itâs a full story of integration.
âYeah.â
What are you learning about yourself through this process of recognizing that thereâs still work to do and that youâve endured a significant amount of trauma, loss, and pain in your life, and that youâre still figuring out who you are?
âThat we all experience pain, and one of the biggest revelations is that it doesnât matter what degree of trauma there necessarily is, maybe mine could look bad from the eyes of someone else who has experienced a different life but, in their eyes, whatever theyâve experienced, whether you shed it from the specific experience to the emotion that it is, fear or sadness, whatever it may be, that theyâve experienced those same things. The heart is behind it all, the one heart. I guess that was a way for me to realize that I wasnât so alone because, at one point, I did think that no one has ever known this pain, but then I had to realize that everyone has a comfort zone in life and however they were pushed out of it could be the same experience. I guess thatâs part of it. While I can say those words, it doesnât necessarily mean I feel it 100 percent. I think thatâs more how Iâm able to see others with authenticity, but not as myself, applying that same standard. I think thatâs the next point for me. Iâm learning about myself, just to be able to say itâs okay. Like I said earlier, the pendulum swinging from faith and fear. Sometimes the fear can be all-encompassing, but I think to just say itâs okay and I donât need to force myself through anything. Sometimes I push myself and it almost makes me regress. I guess Iâm learning to be patient with my own unfolding and know that thereâs a lot of layers and I feel, as the more safe places I find myself entering, that I wonât need to necessarily hear the words from other people. Iâll be able to tell myself those words of love and that, hopefully, Iâll feel safe no matter what. Thatâs the goal. I donât know what will happen. I guess just donât rush the process, as much as I want to, but when I start taking hold of that process and pushing it around, it doesnât tend to do the same type of healing.â
If your nine- or ten-year-old self was sitting next to you, what would you want that self to know or feel?
âI think it would be the other way around. What would the nine- or ten-year-old self want to tell me now?â
Okay, letâs put that spin on it.
âYou were never lost. Itâs okay. You donât have to hide. I miss you. Iâm still here playing. Thatâs what Iâd say.â
For those who may be reading this or listening to this, and may be able to relate not to your experiences, but to the thoughts or feelings that youâve expressed, what would you want them to know?
âYouâre not lost. You never have been. Deep down I know you love you. Give yourself the space and the time to find that joy again, because itâs not that far away, itâs not as far as you think.â
Is there a piece of advice, a song lyric, a mantra, or a quote that resonates with you that youâd like to share?
ââEverything is already okay, everything is already all right.ââ
What does that mean to you?
âSometimes my head takes me all over the place and makes me really afraid and lonely, but when I tap back into that, I can feel that inner child playing again. It makes me realize you donât really need too much, just some laughs and hugs from people you care about. I guess itâs a way for me to come back to that light and not get taken away by the emotional waves, just ride them a little bit and not pulled under. Not to say that Iâm the best at it, but even in that, everything is already okay, trusting that wherever I am is where Iâm supposed to be.â
How has it felt to share and talk about these thoughts, experiences, and feelings with me today?
âAt one point, I felt very naked because I had a plan of the details of what I was going to share and what I wasnât. I know before we were recording, I was talking about the other side of fear is the greatest growth. I felt that even if itâs a tiptoe of a little shelter, itâs better than nothing because Iâll be safe. Itâs taught me a little bit more about what walking into fear really is and the space of forgiveness that falls right after. First, itâs like this naked vulnerability, like fuck, but then thereâs this eerie feeling to it. It feels like I can move through the world a little bit easier. Yeah, thatâs how it was to say those things.â
Do you think itâs possible that by sharing what you did today, in this format, someone on the receiving end could potentially benefit, gain some hope or inspiration, or even a sense that theyâre not alone?
âI think thatâs my lifelong purpose. I think our greatest pain is our greatest power. I believe that wholeheartedly. This fire thatâs burning within us, it could be shame or fear-based or anything, once we take it outside of ourselves and realize itâs the most beautiful, amazing thing in the world, and we hold it as our torch, then other people begin to see, too. Itâs not like this is my torch. No, thereâs one right there inside of you, too. Letâs muster up and get that thing lit. The only way to light it is from yourself, but that doesnât mean there canât be any encouragement along the way; it doesnât have to be so hard. I definitely believe that, or I hope. Thatâs the goalâeventually write my story, being able to make someone not feel so scared or, even if they are scared, recognize that someone else has felt that too and, right outside that immense fear, is really the best space you could ever be in.â
Thank you.
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What has been one of the most challenging things youâve experienced or are currently experiencing?
âProbably drug addiction.â
Tell me about that.
âSince I was fourteen years old, the first time I ever tried it, Iâve been intermittently addicted to crystal meth. The past four years, itâs been pretty consecutive other than the four months that I spent in jail two years ago. I guess thatâs the gist of it.â
When did you start using it?
âI was about fourteen years old. I used to do it every other weekend with a group of shitty friends that I had made.â
What was going on in your life at that time?
âI had just lost my best friend, who was like my brother; we grew up together. He died from complications due to diabetes. I saw that they were using it and I had taken Adderall before. I thought it was like Adderall, except you could snort it or smoke it, and I thought thatâs always fun. I recognized that they were carefree on it, and I wanted to be like that, so I did it.â
What was it like the first time you got high?
âIt was sketchy and I was on edge. I donât know if youâve done any sort of upper, but itâs intense. It actually made me feel disgusting for a while. I felt really gross the entire time and then coming down was awful, but something inside me wanted to do it again, so I did. It disconnected me from the world. All that really mattered was scribbling on a piece of paper for hours on end. I guess it was really getting lost in reality.â
How did your life unfoldâwere you in school at that time?
âIt kind of caused me to âfail outâ of high school; I didnât drop out, but failed out pretty bad. I had to retake my sophomore year on the computer and graduated at the bottom of my class because of it, or the choices I made while on it. I donât really know if I was in control or not then.â
You talked about jailâhow did you end up there?
âI got arrested leaving a drug deal in June 2015 and then, after my parents bailed me out, I stopped going to court for the probation sentence and a year and a half later, they picked me up at my older brotherâs apartment at 11:00 p.m. Six bounty hunters apprehended me and then I spent the next four months in Montgomery County. I was there for Thanksgiving, Christmas Eve, Christmas, New Yearâs Eve, New Yearâs, and almost my birthday, all behind bars.â
What was that like?
âHonestly, it wasnât that bad. It was pretty shitty and I was very confined. I was in a sixteen-man room for the most part. It was me and fifteen other people, all in a big-ass room full of bunk beds, having to stare at each other all day.â
Where did that lead you to mentally? Did you process anything in your mind about where you had been, where you wanted to go, where you were?
âI just wanted out. It kind of made me feel like an animal. In Texas, I donât know what itâs like anywhere else, but you become state property when youâre incarcerated; you lose all your rights. Basically, youâre a body with a name. Youâre not a human in there. Itâs weird.â
How long ago was that?
âIt was January 2017.â
Where did you end up when you were released?
âBack to my older brotherâs, and he does dope too. I went right back to where I started, or stopped at midway.â
So, you were sober and clean in jail?
âYes, while I was there.â
Did you go through withdrawal?
âI slept for the first four days. I didnât eat or use the restroom; I just slept.â
So, you get out, move back in with your brother, and get right back into it?
âThe night that I got out, I used.â
Whatâs your relationship like with your family, aside from your brother?
âI donât talk to them, only whenever they speak to me and, even then, itâs usually just my mom, and itâs like once every two weeks, sometimes twice.â
What are those conversations like?
âI love you, I miss you. I love you too, I miss you too.â
Do they live locally?
âThey live about two hours away.â
Do they kind of push you away due to your addiction?
âI alienated myself because I knew Iâm not anyone a parent could be proud ofâthatâs how I feel. Because of my problem, and I donât want them to see me like this and I wonât let them. So, I pushed myself away from them.â
Have you done that with close friends as well?
âIâve done it with everyone.â
So, who are you associating with, dealers and other users?
âYeah. I dated this dude for almost a year and he basically isolated himself away from me recently because of it. That really fucked me up a little bit because I feel like I put so much into it, but really it was just me high as hell, overthinking everything, all the time, slowly dissipating into nothing.â
Itâs got to be a pretty lonely feeling to be that isolated.
âYeah, but youâre never really alone when youâre a drug addict.â
Because youâre connecting with your substance.
âIâm perfectly fine with being alone, but Iâm not okay with how lonely I am most times.â
Are you scared at all to continue down this path?
âYeah, because I donât know where my lifeâs going. So, I just get high and itâs like âwhere are you going now?â to go get high.â
How can you afford to get high?
âMy best friend sells it. My only friend just happens to be a drug dealer.â
Are you performing any sort of acts or anything in exchange?
âNo, no, no; weâre just really good friends and misery loves company. Heâs basically in the same spot Iâm in.â
What are some of the things youâve lost along the way through these years of addiction?
âHonestly, I lost my sanity, a lot of good friends, and a close tie with my family. I lost my car. I lost my license. Somehow I lost my social security card, but I donât think that had anything to do with drugs. I lost my apartment, but that was at the beginning so thatâs not a big deal.â
Where are you living now?
âI live with my friend, Pat, who is also a drug addict, but heâs a more functioning one, I should say. Heâs held a job for four years and his addiction is kind of new and, ironically enough, Iâm the first one he ever tried it with, which is kind of funny or fucked up.â
Have you ever been in any situations where you felt like your life was being threatened?
âNo, not really. Not that I can think of, but I donât know . . . no.â
Howâs your judgment when youâre high?
âYou can rationalize just about anything. For the most part, I would say itâs pretty good. There are dumb people who get addicted to drugs and there are people who are addicted to drugs who already have a good grip on reality and are able to make the right decisions or rational ones at least, but Iâve done some pretty stupid stuff.â
What are some of the stupid things that youâve done?
âNot put the filter on a vacuum cleaner and small things like that. Iâve never done anything really stupid like rob anyone. I did, however, one time throw a brick through a window. I was super pissed off at the person who lived at the apartment and, in a fit of rage due to addiction or substance use, I picked up what was closest to me, which happed to be a chipped piece of concrete by the curb and chucked it threw the window. I donât know howâs that going to fix it, but it made me feel better. It was really stupid.â
Prior to losing your friend, had you experienced any sort of obstacles early on in your life that taught you some coping skills to deal with grief, pain, or challenging experiences?
âTo isolate; thatâs all Iâve ever really known. Get over it and, if you canât, shut up about it. Thatâs what I was basically taught.â
Do you want to stop?
âYes and no. Crystal meth is the only thing thatâs kept a roof over my head while, at the same time, itâs kept me on the edge of losing that. Itâs the only thing that sort of keeps me connected with the real world because I have friends and acquaintances who use and who keep me from going insane living alone. At the same time, those people come and go. Those people arenât necessarily friends you want to keep around; theyâre people who are just going to bring you down because theyâre going to keep you high. Iâm aware of that but, at the same time, I canât stop. So, yes and no. I was sober for about a month and moved to New Mexico with my ex. That didnât turn out well, obviously. He flew me back here on a last-minute, overnight flight and I started using again.â
How old are you now?
âTwenty-four.â
So, youâve been using for ten years?
âJust about.â
Any issues with your health?
âNo, not that I know of. I probably have shaky hands, but so does everybody.â
Do you sleep?
âYeah, every night, which is kind of an achievement really if youâre a crackhead like me. Iâve kind of plateaued. Iâve reached a level of tolerance that makes me have a normal sleeping schedule, which is something you really donât want to be but, at the same time, Iâm glad Iâm there because now Iâm normal-ish. I donât look cracked out.â
Whatâs your biggest fear?
âDyingânot from drug use, though I guess that would suck too, but just dying in general, because I donât know whatâs going to happen after that. Maybe my biggest fear is actually not knowing and being unaware.â
In contrast, do you feel like youâre living?
âI feel like Iâve been dead since I was about twelve, but I donât think that had anything to do with drugs, but the realization of how fucked up the world really is. I think Iâm living in a wayâI get to do shit that not everybody gets to do, like not have to work, Iâm able to explore the city, and thatâs what I do every day. I go to different parts of the city and sketch around, but Iâm probably not really living, not in a way thatâs (I guess) savory.â
Did you grow up here?
âNo. I grew up two hours northeast, in a little town, Cold Springs, with about 900 people, and thatâs consolidated because itâs a bunch of small towns put together.â
What brought you to Houston?
âDrugs. I bounced from circle of users to circle of users to circle of users until I ended up in Kingwood. Kingwood is right on the outskirts of Houston. I just migrated over here, made friends wherever I could, and now Iâm here.â
When you agreed to do the interview, did you have any idea that youâd be talking about this?
âNo, not at all. I honestly had no idea what it would be about. I was just like âan interview, okay, thatâs fine.â I thought maybe it was going to be âhow do you feel about Houstonâ or some sort of typical bullshit interview, but I didnât think it would make me open my eyes to shit Iâve been closing them to or havenât said out loud in a while. Iâve said this stuff before, âI donât want to do this.ââ
How does it feel to hear yourself expressing these things?
âIt kind of pisses me off.â
In what way? Youâre pissed at yourself?
âYeah, because I know Iâm just going to go get high afterwards.â
Are you high now?
âNo. I used, but Iâm not high. I guess thatâs high; I donât really know. The last time I used was about six hours ago. I get high and then thereâs other days where I just get by and, today, is a just a get by day because I didnât do too much of it.â
What happens if you donât use?
âI sleep and Iâm dead to the world basically, which is probably what I am now, but in a different way because Iâm asleep. Iâve slept for thirty-six hours straight before and my friends have asked if I had a bladder infection, and I said that I was good, just tired. When I woke up, I had muscular atrophy, where I couldnât really feel much, and then Iâd just waddle around until I found food, and then I was good.â
Would you say youâre depressed?
âProbably clinically. I used to take Pristiq, but it didnât mix well with my meth use, so I cold turkey stopped taking it after about six months. Itâs a serotonin replacement or something, but I thought it was kind of bullshit. Iâve been told before by friends that Iâve been manic; they would say âwow, youâre pretty manicâ and Iâd say âyeah, I know.ââ
Do you think you were like that before the drugs or has that manifested since?
âHalf and half. Iâve always been kind of bipolar-ish, but this has really intensified it or brought it to a meniscus versus overflowing. If it was overflowed, Iâd probably be in prison, but itâs definitely got to that point.â
What keeps you in that elevated state?
âBeing aware that Iâd probably go to prison, so to stay at a constant âthatâs okay.â Itâs not necessarily the way anybody would want to live.â
What were you like as a child?
âI didnât take ânoâ as an answer. I wasnât a spoiled brat or handed everything I wanted, but I didnât have to ask for much. I never really had to go without anything. My parents werenât wealthy, but they were comfortable, and have been that way as long as I can remember. For the most part, Iâd say I was a pretty happy kid.â
How did you meet your friend who died?
âWe were neighbors. He was like my brother. I donât have close ties or close relationships with anybody like I did with him. He was the first person I could ever really say was my best friend. When youâre a kid, grandparents, aunts, uncles, parentsâ and grandparentsâ friends die, and you say âoh, thatâs sad.â But, when your fourteen-year-old best friend dies, basically out of the blue, he just wakes up one morning and then heâs dead . . . That shit really happens, people die, people who you know die, people youâre close with die, and itâs hard. It sucks pretty bad, especially when youâre that young and you donât really know how to take it in. You know how youâre supposed to take it in, you know how people do it, and you see it in movies, but thereâs something inside of you that dies too, and you canât wake it up. Josh was my best friend and was like a brother to me. We did just about everything together.â
What would you say to him if he was here now?
âThat Iâm sorry. I would tell him that Iâm sorry because, at this point, I would have probably alienated myself from him too. I guess given if he had left and came back. Yeah, I would tell him that I was sorry because Iâm sure he wouldnât have wanted to see me like this.â
What do you think he would say to you?
âI donât know. Heâd probably call me an idiot, but Iâm not sure.â
If you could go back to your twelve- or fourteen-year-old self in that time in your life, as the adult you are now, what would you say to that child?
âDonât do it. Youâre going to fuck up. Donât do it, but that twelve- or fourteen-year-old probably wouldnât listen anyway. Heâd probably think that I was stupid because ânoâ is not an answer and âdonâtâ is not a reason.â
What were you passionate about at that age?
âI really liked art and liked to draw. I havenât actually picked up a pen or pencil and drawn anything since I was about seventeen. My senior year of high school was a pretty heavy usage year. I was focused on doing that versus something that made me happy.â
How does it feel when youâre drawing or creating something?
âItâs instant gratification, kind of like vacuuming is to me now. I did it, itâs there, thatâs something I did, itâs something I completed on my own, other people get to see it, I get to see it, know that itâs done, know that I did it, and I like it. Itâs a successful feeling, but I havenât felt that in a minute.â
Did you have any other outlets that you felt a connection to?
âI listened to music a lot. Even now, I listen to music all the time. I never played any instruments and Iâm not really talented in any other way, but I like music.â
Do you write at all?
âNo, not at all. I donât even remember the last time I wrote something down. My handwriting probably looks like someone trying to write with their left hand. Iâm not used to a pencil or pen; itâs unfamiliar.â
Whatâs the first thing you do in the morning when you wake up?
âI drink coffee sometimes; that or Coke, which is terrible for you. I eat, smoke a cigarette, and then smoke dope (I guess use).â
Have you ever felt hopeless and suicidal?
âYes, at least twice a week. I feel like Iâve reached a point where thereâs no way of turning around. Iâm twenty-four years old and I already hold a drug possession felony. No oneâs going to want to hire me, so I havenât tried to look anymore. I have basically no friends, especially if I were to stop. My family and I arenât really close and they donât want to help me anyway. I feel like thereâs not a good enough reason to want to keep living but, at the same time, Iâm kind of too much of a pussy to kill myself.â
So, youâre just kind of slowly and passively doing it through using drugs every day and not taking care of yourself.
âPretty much.â
Is this what you thought youâd be doing tonight?
âNo. I knew I was going to be doing an interview, but didnât think it would be such a reflective one.â
If there was someone else out there listening to this or reading this who could relate to where you are in your life and where youâve been, and possibly feeling hopeless or numb, or even just alone, what message would you want them to hear and know?
âThat theyâre not alone. There are other people just as fucked up as you are. I have a really bad mouth, itâs probably just another side effect of drug use. Theyâre not the only ones who feel nothing or like they are that.â
Is there any part of you that sees a different future for yourself other than your situation right now?
âYeah, but itâs all sort of hazy. If I were to try to picture it, I couldnât put the pieces together. Itâs more like an audio clip. I can hear myself âall right, youâre sober, youâre good, lifeâs okay,â but I canât actually see it. Itâs like thereâs someone with my voice telling me that, but I donât see it with my own eyes or inside my own head. I canât picture it and to me that just tells me itâs not a thing. If you can see it, you can achieve it, and I canât see it.â
Is it possible that thatâs faith? Do you have faith?
âI have something; I donât know what it is. I donât know if Iâm pessimistic or Iâm realistic, but I donât think I have faith in myself; thatâs what it is.â
Why?
âWhy should I? Maybe I just doubt myself more than I have faith in myself.â
All the various skills youâve developed to sustain what youâre doing today could be used in the opposite direction to sustain you in a way that you might thrive.
âIâve managed to be able to live without any sort of resources other than the kindness of strangers for the past three years, so thatâs good; that makes me something.â
Thatâs strength.
âIâm probably evil. I donât think Iâm a bad person for itâsurviving strictly on the kindness of others. It sounds terrible when you say it like that. Iâm just getting by how I can.â
What would give you hope?
âProbably better resources. If I knew there would be something to catch me whenever I fell off this horrible plane ride of whatever it is Iâm going through now. If there was a safety net that would give me hope. Now knowing that I would hit rock bottom and fall to my death if I were to stop, I wonât stop because of that. If there was something to catch me, and if I knew it would be okay and there was a better support system other than the people who are constantly throwing dope in my pipe, then I probably would stop.â
Itâs hard to see that in any situation. I can only speak for myself, but for me, I could never see what was going to catch me either, whether I continued to perpetuate self-destruction and didnât want to not feel pain anymore, but didnât know how to end it without inflicting more pain on myself, or to follow my heart and intuition and move in the other direction. My life started to change when I listened to my heart and moved in the other direction, but it was just as scary because I couldnât see how I was going to have the resources I needed and somehow (and Iâm not a believer in your traditional God or any type of religion) miraculously I had what I needed when I needed it. It didnât ever come in the way I expected it to, and yet it was there, some sort of ground beneath my feet, and that gave me faith and restored my faith that if I had enough courage to continue to be vulnerable, enough to step out of my old behaviors, to step out of the routine, and step out of the comfort, even if it is perpetuating discomfortâsomehow itâs familiar so itâs comfortableâif I had the vulnerability and courage to do that, something would catch me. I remember early on looking for people who were going to save me or thinking that all these various opportunities that presented themselves were going to be the quick fix that would save me. What I continued to learn, and to repeat over and over again through making that mistake of thinking someone else was going to save me, is that I had the power to save myself all the while. All the resources I needed were within me. I had to think them into reality: thought, action, reality. Yet somehow, we train ourselves to think itâs going to come the opposite way, that it comes from the outside in, but that wasnât my experience. I donât know if that makes any sense to you.
âIt does.â
I can relate to that feeling of being stuck. You know you want to get off that ride, but you donât know if there will be anything to catch you if youâre to get off. So, you stay stuck.
âI made up this fun little terminology of being plateaued. Youâve reached a level where thereâs nothing much around other than the great distance between you and the ground and itâs not high enough to put you up in the clouds where you need to be. So, youâre there, drifting above the surface of rock bottom and normalcy.â
Itâs like being in limbo.
âYeah, or purgatory. I live in purgatory. Actually, it might be hell. I live in gray, very gray, not a whole lot of color there.â
Are there moments where you see or feel color in your life?
âThereâs a lot of blue and, when itâs not blue, itâs red but, for the most part, itâs gray. I donât really feel much but, whenever I do, itâs usually just sadness. I get so sad and I feel like I canât do much about it, so again, I get angry, then I get so mad that I cry and that makes me even more sad, and then Iâm mad that Iâm crying, so itâs purple or gray. Itâs not really a colorful journeyâthis life. Itâs like an old-school comic book, itâs all grayscale with a little blue and a little red.â
What do you know about the process of grieving?
âI donât. I know that it sucks. I donât know how to get over it. You can either sweep it under the rug or you can actually deal with it, and Iâve just been sweeping it under the rug. Anything that Iâve ever lost, Iâve been âall right, shut that down, shut that downâ and only ever pick up where I left off, which is having it suck basically, whenever someone lifts that rug up for me âthanks.â So, I guess I donât know much about the process of grieving.â
Iâm not particularly sure about the order, but there are five stages of grief. I think youâve mentioned a few of them, like the deep sadness, the anger, and thereâs a stage of blame, transferring that uncomfortable feeling onto someone else, making them responsible for your suffering. Thereâs also acceptance, which I think is a hard one to come to; we avoid a lot by repressing. As long as we can keep it stuffed down, we donât have to look at it or accept that it happened. Until we do that, weâre not truly moving on, whether itâs grief or trauma. I had a woman tell me in an interview, and itâs very profound, she said when she started to heal the trauma, the addictions started to go away, and that really stuck with me. I believe that we continue to connect with whatever our substance is, whether itâs our phones, drugs, alcohol, money, or sex, to avoid looking at the wound, but the only way to heal a wound is to treat it with compassion and kindness.
âNot a big band aid?â
No. I know in our culture and in our families, weâre taught to discharge pain, to move away from it, and stuff it down.
âThe sun gives you a sunburn, stay away from it kind of thing.â
Yes, but growth, transformation, awareness, wisdom, empathy, joy, and love are all qualities that are developed through leaning into pain and discomfort, not from running away from it. Everything that we long forâthat sense of real meaningful connection, fulfillment, sustenance in our life, and purposeâis on the other side of that pain, and thereâs no way to skip over it or go around it.
âYou got to go through it and deal with it.â
Yeah. Itâs shitty. I donât know whatâs worse, spending your lifetime running away from it or feeling shitty for a period of time, then having some relief, and maybe recognizing that youâre resilient, you do have potential, and there is more to life than this grayscale and constant fear of when is the bottom going to drop out.
âI feel like Iâve hit rock bottom a couple of times, like literally scraping my teeth on its surface is where Iâll probably want to stop but, at the same time, Iâve probably hit that part too. It seems like chilling at the mantle.â
Do you have a favorite song lyric, mantra, or something that someone has said to you, maybe even your friend or your parents, that has stuck with you that youâd like to share?
âThere are lyrics to a song that says âif you talk me out of my needs and stitch me up at the seams then I can live in my dreamsâ.â
Whatâs that mean to you?
âItâs kind of sad, if you think about it. If I didnât have to do the things I have to do, then Iâd be happy. If I didnât have to wake up and get high, Iâd probably be okay or if I didnât require x amount of blah, blah, blah then Iâd be cool, things would be okay, and life would be a dream. But, thatâs not how it is and Iâm living a nightmare. Yeah, talk me out of my needs and stitch me up at the seams, I can live in my dreams.â
Do you think itâs possible to heal?
âYeah. You just got to rip off that band aid I was telling you about. I donât know. I feel like, metaphorically, my band aid is waterproof and I donât want to pull it off because it really hurts, and I donât want to deal with it, so I slowly pick at it, but eventually I just stick it back on. Yeah, itâs possible to heal; tons of people do it, right?â
Yes. Itâs a matter of surrendering. Itâs like showing up and saying âI donât know how this is going to turn out.â
âBut doing it anyway.â
Yeah. Thatâs courage, right?
âYeah. I donât think I have much of that. Like I said earlier, the fear of the unknown, I donât know if Iâm going to be able to do it, so I donât try it.â
Whatâs worse? It seems like you have more to lose by continuing and knowing that the rest of your life may look like it does right now or thereâs a risk that you may feel some discomfort for a while, but thereâs a chance that things could get better.
âI donât know. I should probably stop using, because itâs not helping me. I wouldnât necessarily say that itâs hurting me either, but thatâs probably the drugs talking.â
Who would be the first person you would call, if you were to make that choice?
âIâd probably call my mom. Yeah, thatâs probably who Iâd call. Iâd probably tell her to come get me. Iâve done it before. Iâve told her âI need you to come get me. I need you to fuckinâ stop what youâre doing and come get meâ and she has; she would do it in a heartbeat. The last time I called her and said that was about three years ago. Iâm not too sure how or if she would be okay with it or how she would go about it, but Iâd call her. I need to call her actually.
âNot only for that, but I miss my family a little bit, a lot. I havenât seen them. I spent that one Christmas in jail, but the two after thatâI didnât go, the one before thatâI didnât go. I havenât been home in so long. I havenât actually seen my mom in a yearâthat sucks. For a long time, she was my best friend. She was always a shoulder and an ear. Itâs been a while, a long time.â
I hope you do make that phone call.
âWe Snapchat sometimes, which is kind of weird. Weâre actually Snapchat friends, but I havenât snapchatted her in about six months. I sent her a text about two weeks ago, and thatâs about it. I havenât heard her voice in a long time. I can still remember what she sounds like, which is kind of surprising. Usually whenever I cut things off like that, I completely disconnect from it. I donât know what they look like. I donât know what they feel like. I remember her and her voice; itâs weird.â
Do you think she would answer the phone now if you called?
âSheâs probably asleep right now, but yeah she might answer. If not, she would text me âwhat?â, but I think she would answer.â
I hope you make that call after this interview. How has it felt to talk about these thoughts, feelings, and experiences with me tonight?
âSurprisingly, not bad. Like I said, I didnât know what I was getting myself into. At the beginning, I thought it was probably going to be annoying, but I didnât find it that annoying because there was a level of comfort versus judgment. I didnât feel very judged at all.â
Itâs a beautiful thing, you being vulnerable.
âIs that what this is?â
Yeah, and you being met with empathy. It kind of kills shame, which I think feeds addiction.
âProbably, yeah, needing to hide something.â
Itâs a heavy weight.
âIt will suffocate you. Thatâs always good.â
Itâs lethal; it really is. Do you think itâs possible by sharing your thoughts, feelings, and experiences so courageously tonight, as you are, that someone on the receiving end gains some hope, inspiration, or at least a sense that theyâre not alone?
âI would hope so, because this wasnât that easy to do. Yeah, I think they probably could if they arenât stubborn assholes like me, and listen all the way through. Because if I were handed this to listen to, read, or watch, Iâd probably stop paying attention halfway through; depending on my state of mind I might say âI donât want to hear that.â If I actually listened to it or if someone like me listened to it from A to B, theyâd probably like it; theyâd probably get it.â
Yeah. Thank you.
âThank you. Youâre welcome.â
Iâm really proud of you. This was a really courageous thing to do and you skipped right into it.
âI ripped the band aid off that time.â
You did. I hope youâll continue to do that.
âThereâs a bunch of open blisters and sores hereâthis sounds so weird.â
Thanks.
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(Hearts of Strangers)
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What has been one of the most challenging things youâve experienced or are currently experiencing?
âIâve had some challenging times, but I think my current challenge is the most challenging in the sense that Iâm the most conscious of it, I guess. I know that weâve talked about this before, but Iâm going to reiterate for the sake of the recorder. My youngest sister died in a car crash on Thanksgiving of last year, unexpectedly, obviously, and it was horrible and really tragic. She was super nice. Everyone loved her. She was super cool, a really awesome person. It definitely hit me pretty hard. I wouldnât say that we were close enough to talk to each other every day, but Iâve known her since she was born and felt very close to her. I wanted to see her thrive and do well. I was happy to see how much she was thriving. She was 21 at the time, living her best life to the fullest, in a very inspirational way. Seeing that and seeing the reaction from her friends and family, and people who knew her, when we did her services. People from all areas of her lifeâpeople who knew her from school, from church, from work, or from whereverâeveryone adored her, and everyone was so broken up. Iâve never been to a funeral for a tragic, untimely death like that, so itâs hard to compare. Iâve never been to an event like that where everyone was so visibly shaken and upset, everyone was bawling. Itâs not like that when someoneâs grandparent dies or the typical death events that we go to. In such a short time, she touched so many peoplesâ lives and everyone had nothing but good things to say about her and it made me think about my own life. I thought, âIf I died right now, I wouldnât get this kind of response and if I died at 21, even less so.â I didnât seize my life in the same way she did.
âMy sister was very open and genuine with people. I think people like me fine, but I didnât have the type of bonds that she had with people where they would go to bat for her without even thinking about it. It was especially tragic because she had a pretty tough upbringing. Sheâs my half-sister and we share a mother who is a drug addict. I feel like she will always be a drug addict. I donât know what her current status isâI donât really keep up with her. I donât think sheâs on drugs at the moment, but could be any day, and has been basically my entire life that I can remember. My sister was in and out of foster care when she was younger and had to deal with that and had to deal with our momâs issues. I think her dad had a drug problem as well early on in her life, but he got clean and has stayed clean, and he became very active in the church and the church sort of helped bring her up.
âAt the age of 21, she had her shit together emotionally in a way that was so impressive, considering the life she had to live early on. I feel that I have a lot of unresolved emotional issues because of my own early life. Thatâs why I say her life was inspirational to me, in the sense that she was the little sister, but she was coping with it and had dealt with it in a way that was impressive. It made me think, âWow, Iâm not living my life like that and I havenât lived my life like that,â and it made me face a lot of those things head on that I had pushed off for as long as I can remember. I remember when I was younger and dealing with my parentsâ divorce. I didnât really know what was going on with my mom. I donât know when it became apparent that she was a drug addict, but I eventually figured it out. They tried to hide it from me to some extent. I have weird memories of being places that I know realize were crack houses when I was younger. There were times when my mom said she lost something, but she definitely pawned it for drug money. Things like that. I started to connect the dots later. From a very early age I stopped visiting my mom. Whenever I was able to make the decision to end the court-ordered visitation, I did. I cut that out as best as I could because I was pissed off, but I didnât understand it at the time that I was pissed off as a little kid.
âI had stability in a sense. I always had a place to live and I wasnât hungry. My dad and grandma did a pretty good job keeping everything together from that standpoint, but from an emotional support standpoint, they didnât really. I didnât really seek it out, but at the same time, I was 10, 11, or 12 years old. I had no idea and I had to deal with something I couldnât understand. I closed it all off; that was my solution at the time because I didnât know what I was feeling and no one was helping me understand what I was feeling. That turned me into an angsty teenager, a little trouble-making here and there, but I was always a good student so I never really got into serious trouble. Youâll get a lot of passes when you get good grades, even when you get in trouble with the cops for skateboarding, egging cars, or whatever, shit like that. I was always like, âWell, Iâm doing good in school, what do you want from me?â That was how I dealt with it. By closing it off, it impacted not only relationships with my family, but with every friendship/relationship I had, including now. I was never emotionally close with any of my friends. I was always the jokester kind of guy. I never understood the male bonding thing. I never told my friends that I was feeling upset or whatever. Everything was either cool or I would be angry about something, but wouldnât say anything. I would just say everything is fine or, if it wasnât fine, I would just pretend that it was fine. I didnât even understand it at the time; this is all of my understanding in retrospect. That was how I felt about stuffâyeah, dude, my mom is a drug addict, my parents got divorced, I donât even care. That was how I made it seem.
âNow that Iâm a grownup, I realize thereâs no way that stuff can happen to you as a kid and just be cool with it. Because I never dealt with it and closed it off, I didnât even realize until now. Iâm starting to realize that I didnât face any of that stuff. It affected all my friendships, relationships, and my behaviors. It impacted me in super deep ways. My parents got divorced when I was 6 or 7. I donât really remember; that was the history I was told. I have these random memories of traumatic shit happening. If I can remember something like that and have it stuck in my mind from such a young age, obviously thereâs something from that happening. Who knows all of the stuff I donât remember? Itâs in here somewhere affecting me somehow, which is something I started to realize. Itâs just not healthy to keep all that stuff inside.
âItâs weird, I had a funny moment; I guess I can say itâs funny now. After my sister died, the family was all getting together. Everyone on my momâs side was getting together about a month or two after. It was my momâs step-sister, I guess my aunt, she was around when we were younger. She was telling some story about back in the day. My momâs family is pretty open about my mom being a fuck-up; they even joke about it to some extent. How else can you handle it? They keep her around, people are nice to her, and they like to see her doing well, but sheâs definitely run out of favors from most of that side of the family. They still have her around, but they wonât let her borrow money, but they want to see her doing well. There are jokes here and there about her being the family fuck-up. My aunt was telling some story and she said, âI was arguing with your mom one time, and I canât remember exactly, but I threw a can of soup and hit someone in the head, blah, blah, blah,â and I said that was me who got hit in the head. I could not have told you that story, but when I heard it, that memory slammed back into my head. Oh shit, that was me. I got hit in the head with a can. I was probably about 10 years old. It made me realize, damn, how many other traumatic events are in there somewhere that I donât consciously remember, but something can bring them out like that. Who knows how theyâve been guiding me unconsciously my whole life?
âI said I was going to give a brief background, but it wasnât that brief. I repressed all that stuff and never dealt with it. I never reached out to people. I never sought support from friends. I never did any of that. I wouldnât say Iâm particularly close with any of my friends on an emotional level. Itâs like weâre cool, we go out and play video games, crack jokes, or drink beers but itâs never like, âHowâve you been, bro?â Iâm like, âYeah, Iâm good, everythingâs chill,â or give some bullshit office answer like âliving the dream, manââwhatever. It now occurs to me that most people donât operate like that with their friends. A lot of people share stuff with their friends, and it seemed like my take on it was itâs kind of embarrassing to share your shit with people, but then you realize everyone has shit, so thereâs nothing embarrassing about it and it actually brings you closer because it shows that vulnerable side of you to tell a friend âno, Iâm not doing well.â
âAnnabelle died on Thanksgiving, and since then, there were definitely some dark times. Like, oh shit, I canât believe that happened; itâs so horrible. I miss her. I regret not seeing her more and talking to her more. All those feelings wrapped up, and then I turned inward about it. I started going to therapy, which I had tried on and off over the years. It never worked well for me because I was basically lying to the therapist, not telling him how I really felt, or that whole being vulnerable and letting yourself say that youâre not okay was not something that I did, even in the confines of a therapistâs office. I would just give some bullshit like âtoday was tough because I was stressed about work.â Itâs one of those things you can only get out of it what you put into it. A therapist isnât going to help you if you donât tell him whatâs really going on. So, I told myself this time Iâm going to a therapist and Iâm not going to lie, which has been my rule and Iâve been doing well with it, Iâd say.
âMy challenge now is confronting all that stuff. I concluded with my therapist after telling her about how Iâve felt over the past several years, how I used to be really into making music and I stopped doing that because it wasnât bringing me any joy, really nothing was bringing me any joy, and this was even leading up to Annabelle. I felt like all of that repressed stuff had started to manifest in me being super depressed, but not outwardly or in a way anyone would notice. Thatâs a whole other question about people donât really know what depression looks like, I guess. Thatâs just how I felt inside and nothing really made me happy. I was distracting myself with bullshit stuff like playing videogames, going out partying, and blah, blah, blah, anything to not have to deal with the fact that I was feeling super shitty and not enthused about life at all. Nothing brought me joy and I didnât really feel like doing anything. I felt like my ideal activity after coming home from work would be to press a button in a videogame and skip to the next day so I didnât have to live out the next seven or so hours before I went to sleep. I didnât want to do anything. Iâd rather just go to sleep, wake up, and go to work the next day. It was so gradual that it became normal after a while and I didnât even question it.
âThis came at an age, a couple of years ago when I turned 30, and it was like, âoh, maybe this is adulthood, you run out of exciting things to look forward to.â I was done with college, I lived out my twenties, I have a stable career, and now life is just boring. That also kind of threw me off the scent, I guess you could say. I thought that was just part of life. It turns out that a lot of people over thirty are psyched every day to live their life. They do things that make them happy and they get joy from hobbies and friends. I explained this to my therapist and she said, âDude, youâre depressed,â and I was like, âOh, shit, maybe youâre right.â It kind of clicked for me. Iâve read a lot about it, you hear about it in music, and I have friends who deal with depression, but I was like âno, thatâs not me,â but it turned out that it was me and it wasnât like it was new or because of Annabelle dying.
âLooking back, I had probably been depressed for years to various degrees, and I finally am doing something about it. My therapist and I were talking about it and she said that I need to make some changes in my life. I need to deal with issues that I have. I need to work on growing my friendships and relationships with my family. I didnât feel like doing any of that because I just felt like going to sleep. My therapist suggested trying a medication and got me on one. Iâm relatively new to the antidepressant game; itâs been about a month or so. I feel some sort of change, but now I have to do the work. She said now I have to do the work, but if I donât feel like doing the work, then we have to address that first and get into a place where I have enough energy to face this stuff. Iâm on the first step of trying to deal with this stuff and itâs not like Step 1 is this and Step 2 is thatâwho the hell knows? There are so many moving pieces I have to address. Some of the work is internal and some of the work is external in terms of my relationships. Iâve been trying to have more substantial or open conversations with my friends about stuff, saying âIâm dealing with this thing right now.â
âAnnabelleâs services were a big step in making me feel this was okay. A couple of my friends went to the wake in Massachusetts. Some of them lived in New York and Connecticut, and they all pulled it together and came. It was super duper nice of them. It was awesome to see them supporting me and I was bawling my eyes out that entire night. Being in that position when I had always been embarrassed about opening up to my friends, but in that moment, embarrassment was not even a thought because I was so consumed with the pain of losing Annabelle. When you have an experience like that where all your good friends travel to support you in a time of need and they saw you crying your eyes out, I feel pretty okay telling them Iâm having a bad day at this point because theyâve seen as bad as it can get for me. If you would have told me those people were coming for me, I was surprised honestly because Iâve always kept an emotional distance from my friends. I didnât think they cared enough about me to come for that. It was surprising and touching. It made me value those relationships more. Part of me always felt that relationships were sort of interchangeable when I was growing up; you could change out one friend for another. They were just people you did activities with. There really wasnât a bond there because I never made an effort to form those bonds; but I got a little older and this experience made me think, âWow, these people actually care about me.â I guess a lot of it comes back to my never really wanting to let people care about me because in my mind . . . I had a cynical point of view. I thought that people were self-interested and if I let someone care about me, itâs only a matter of time before they say, âNow I need to care about something elseâ or âIâm going to care about myself.â Itâs almost as if you give someone the power over you to put your trust in them, youâre almost setting yourself up for disappointment. It sounds clichĂ©. But, when one of the main people in your life, like a parent, doesnât careâI wouldnât say my mom doesnât care about me, but she wasnât there for all those years, so it kind of warped my view of relationships and made me distrustful of people. It was amazing that all those people came, and we went out to dinner afterward. Everything was cool and people were super supportive.
âFor the past couple of months Iâve been trying to be more open with people and expand those relationships, add some depth to those relationships, accept that those people are important and they care about me and I care about them. Thatâs a totally normal thing and itâs fine. Thatâs one of the many steps I need to take, and itâs one relationship at a time, one conversation at a time. I canât be âoh, hey friend, just so you know, weâre super close now because I feel emotionally vulnerable, so itâs all good.â You have to build that, and thatâs what Iâm trying to do. Even with new friends, Iâm trying harder to be myself and be open with people. I think over the years, I kind of adapted this sort of chameleon personality where I could be whatever I needed to be in the moment, and I wasnât always being true to myself. It was uncomfortable for me and it was very emotionally and mentally exhausting for me to live that way. It also gave people a misconception of who I was and it led me to be friends with people I shouldnât have really been friends with because sometimes I thought, âI donât really like that person, but I can act a certain way, so that they would like me, so Iâm going to do that.â Just because I like being liked or I liked being cordial and playing the social game. To some extent, you have to do that, but not when it comes to actual friends. Thereâs one woman at my last job when I lived in New York, she was a super big Yankees fan. I donât give a shit about baseball, but I started keeping up with the Yankees just so I could chat with this lady in the office. I couldnât say why. I could have said Iâm not into baseball and we could find something else to connect on. Weâre not the type of people who are going to chit chat about baseball because Iâm just not into it, but thatâs just some shit that I would do, or thatâs what I used to do. I would try to figure out what people wanted and would be that. So, now Iâm trying harder to be myself, and if people like that, thatâs cool. I may have fewer relationships, but the ones I do develop should theoretically be better because itâs the real me, and theyâre saying they like the real me. Iâm being the real me, everythingâs cool, and everyone likes that. Using that same mentality to expand my existing relationships is one of the challenges now. Iâm trying to re-establish myself and re-establish my relationships, and figure out a vision for my life, because Iâve sort of been coasting for the past couple of years because I was super depressed.
âAnnabelleâs death opened up a whole can of worms in terms of my own personal stuff I had never dealt with. Thereâs a little bit of embarrassment and shame in being behind the curve. I donât even know if thatâs true or not, but I feel like being 30 and âIâm trying to find myselfâ is lame. Thatâs what your younger years are for, to build yourself up like that and figure out who you are, what you want, and what you want to do. So, doing that now is a little embarrassing, but itâs what I need. Some people never do it, or do it later than I am now, so itâs not that bad. The only alternative would be to not do it at all, which would be horrible because I couldnât imagine another 50 years living in the condition that Iâm in now. That would be miserable. Yeah, I think thatâs my challenge now.
âPart of the reason Iâm doing this is that I feel like I need to, not necessarily to apologize, but to give an explanation. A lot of my friends know my history, but Iâve brushed it off, saying âyeah, Iâm the one with the drug addict mom, itâs not a big deal,â but it formed me. It made me the way I am in very deep ways, and not necessarily that, but the fact that I never dealt with it is even more crucial to developing who I am and how I am. I want people who are close to me and who know me to get this information and not to sit everyone down individually and say, âIâve been dealing with some stuff for a real long time, were talking like decades.â Itâs gone through various iterations like denial and whatever, acting out, and all of these things, like distracting myself and everything except dealing with it. I just want people to know I care about the people in my life, and any distance theyâve felt from me over the years wasnât personal; it was all about me and how I am and how I feel with the discomfort of sharing myself with other people. Hopefully, it helps people get some insight into how I am and who I am, and why are friendships are the way they are, but I promise Iâm going to be cool now and we can talk about feelings, and itâs fine.â
Tell me a little bit more about growing up with your mother. You mentioned that, in hindsight, there are probably some traumatic experiences that havenât surfaced yet, some things that have, and there are probably some obvious signs that she was an addict. Iâm curious about what, on a day-to-day basis, that looked and felt like for you as a child.
âI donât really remember a time where everything was all good in the house. I have vague memories of my mom being around when I was in kindergarten, but I think early on, when I was 7, 8, and 9, a lot of that stuff was hidden from me. I was told that my parents were going through a divorce and I remember arguments and fights, but really never understood why or what was going on.
âI remember going to sketchy places and meeting sketchy people. Thereâs this one story that I always remember. I was in fifth grade and my elementary school does a trip to Old Sturbridge Village, this little tiny village in Massachusetts. Itâs one of our first out-of-state trips and we take the nice bus. I remember I had a Sony Walkman and the cool thing to do was to have your CD and Walkman and listen to it on the bus. I was looking forward to that. I was so psyched about my Sony Walkman, it was red, or Discman, whatever the CD one was. I remember that it was red with gray accent features, and I was super psyched about it. I brought it, however old a fifth grader kid is, wherever I went, whether I was sitting in the car and listening to it. I remember I went to visit my mom (she lived on Edgar Street in New Haven), which is kind of a sus area. I was listening to it there that weekend. I had to visit my mom that weekend and then Monday we were going on the trip. My dad picked me up and Monday rolls around and I remember I couldnât find my Discman. I was looking for it and I was like âwhat the hell, I need to bring it on the trip.â All the cool kids are going to be listening to their CD players on the bus, itâs an hour and a half ride. I told my father that I thought I left it at my momâs house and I made my dad take me there early in the morning before school. He went up to get it and he came back and said that she let her friend borrow it and she doesnât have it. I told him that I wanted to go to the friendâs house to get it and he said, âNo, we canât, we canât.â Like I said earlier and alluded to, she pawned it. When youâre a drug addict and happen to find an electronic in your house, thatâs the first thing youâre going to do. Itâs weird to me. I canât tell you any other single, individual story from fifth grade, but that story stands out to me.
âThere was a lot of stuff like that. She would come over and ask us if we had any birthday or Christmas money that she could borrow, just weird stuff like that. What I remember most is a lot of individual events that happened like that during that time. Some I remember and some I donât, but what I remember is the way that I felt back then. Once you start going to school and meeting other kids and families, it was clear to me that something was âwrongâ with my family. My mom wasnât around, and especially because, for the most part, it was peoplesâ moms who were picking them up from school, going to PTA things, or chaperoning trips, and it was always my dad who did it, which seemed weird at the time. A single dad was uncommon at that time, and still is to some extent. I asked myself why everyone elseâs mom was there, but mine wasnât. I had a feeling that something about my situation was off and I just remember feeling that way. It became more apparent to me the more socialized I got and the more I got out into the world as a child, and realized this isnât normal.
âHonestly, in retrospect it seems so obvious, but I did not connect the dots on this until literally about five years ago. We had DARE in elementary schoolâit was the drug education program for kids. The cops would come and teach us why drugs are bad and we had to write an essay about why drugs are bad (something like that) in fifth grade. I wrote about my mom because that was my experience: this is why drugs are badâit fucks your family up, or whatever my fifth-grade self had to say about itâand I won the essay contest. I got a stuffed DARE lion as my prize, which was pretty cool. I think I still have it. Two years later, my sister who is two years younger than me and went to the same school, presumably wrote about the same thing for the same contest, and she also won it. I thought we must be really great essay writers. At some point when I was in my twenties I realized the reason we won was because the adults reading these essays thought, âOh shit, these two kids have a drug-addicted mom, letâs give them a win.â It wasnât just a coincidence that we both won. Not that other families couldnât have been impacted by drugs, but I feel it wasnât the norm, and we may have been the only ones who wrote a personal story like that. Other kids might have written about what they learned about in DARE, but I wrote about why drugs are bad and hereâs a story about my mom. It literally just connected to me a couple of years ago that we both probably won because people felt bad for us.â
Was that essay something that was shared with your peers?
âI donât remember, but I donât think so. I think it was submitted and the teachers read it. I donât know, but it might have gotten published in a booklet afterward; they may have picked the best ones. If it was, I definitely donât remember it happening and or remember feeling any type of way about people hearing about it. I never thought about it, actually.â
Even just to write about it for whatever the purpose the contest was around is a pretty courageous thing to do, to expose people to that part of your life, which is often a source of shame and fear for many. If your peers did discover it, that may have garnered more respect for you or brought some awareness to that.
âFifth-graders can be little assholes, so they would have probably been âha, ha, your momâs a drug addict!â Who knows? I donât remember getting picked on. A lot of my friends who were close to me from my home town, over the years, had come to know about it. If you stick around long enough, somethingâs going to come up where itâs relevant, but I never told anyone specifically because I wanted them to know. It would just happen to come up the longer people stuck around.
âWhen I was in high school, my mom was a waitress at Duchess Diner in West Haven, and she said, âYou and your friends should come in.â There were various times throughout my younger life when I tried to be cool with my mom here and there; it would be a couple of months, or a year, and then I would pull back for a year. This was one of those times where I gave it a shot, and we would go and she would give us some free food.
âMy mom has a history of suicide attempts, and I remember there was a time when I was at the diner with my friends and she was serving our food to us and, as she was handing us our plates with her wrists exposed under her arms, you could see scars. I remember the feeling âman, all my friends are clearly noticing this now.â Itâs one thing to say âoh, yeah, my mom was a drug addict back in the dayâ and they had a vague understanding of that, but now she was serving us food with her suicide scars all up in our faces. I think that was probably the last time I went there with them. Thatâs another weird random story that I remember too.
âMy friends in college where you have those drunken nights, when you meet people later in life, you kind of give them the rundown on where you came from and blah, blah, blah. I told some friends I got close to in college directly about it, when they asked, âSo, where you from?â conversations that happened over the years. Itâs not like I necessarily hid it from people per say but, to my earlier point, I would tell them about it and then say, âShe sucksâitâs no big deal.â
Speaking of suicides, someone like you who has experienced depression and not really even recognized it, did you ever find yourself at such low points where you had given up hope that things would get any better or considered taking your own life?
âThankfully, I havenât. The farthest Iâd say itâs gone is that I didnât want to live that day, not trying for that day, or I just wanted to skip that day. Like I said earlier, I would come home from work and say, âI did my duty for the day. Can I just wake up tomorrow and not have to live these hours?â There have definitely been experiences of my not wanting to live through a particular span of time, but it never crossed my mind to just totally end it, luckily. I could see how those thoughts could creep in, especially if it happens gradually. You could start thinking those things and not even realize whatâs going on, but luckily it has never gotten that bad. Iâm thankful for that.â
What were some of your coping skills during the times where you were at some of your lowest points? You mentioned sleeping.
âSleeping, smoking weed, just kind of distraction, pretty much. I would get stoned, play videogames, or take naps, try to hang out with people. I never wanted to be necessarily be by myself and be sober minded. In those moments, my thoughts would go places that I did not want them to go, and I felt I was pushed to deal with or think about those things. I would just get high, play videogames, and would get so consumed with external stimuli that I wouldnât have to worry about that stuff. Distraction was definitely my number one coping mechanism for as long as I can remember.
âEven when I was younger, in high school, I was always doing stuff. Every day, I would come home from school and then Iâd go skateboarding with my friends. I was surrounded by people all the time. In my college years, I partied a bunch. I lived with roommates all the time. In the summers, between college semesters when I would come back home, my house turned into the hangout spot. I would literally have ten-plus people over every night and we would drink and smoke, hang out, listen to music, and play games. I would constantly surround myself with people. I think, in looking back, when I started to turn a page and actually felt depressed and didnât want to be around people so much, I told myself, âMaybe Iâm just an introverted personâ and thatâs when I said, âYeah, Iâm an introvert, Iâve figured it out.â But that didnât really jibe with my history because I like being around people and I like social activities. There were definitely days when I was feeling down and wanted to get together with some people and that would bring my energy up. Thatâs the opposite of an introverted mentality where you think âI need to be by myself to recharge.â
âNow, looking back, I wonder if I realized I was an introvert, or was that when I started to feel the feelings of depression starting to happen because I went from always wanting to be around people, which was bad in its own right because it was my coping mechanism to distract myself, to wanting to be by myself, but now Iâm not distracted by people so I need to get high and do other stuff by myself that would occupy my mind.â
Did you have any friends or people who are close to you who reached out in a suggestive way that maybe youâre not okay and they were trying to offer you help?
âNo, never ever, and I donât think itâs anyoneâs fault other than my own. I think I did a very good job of hiding it. When I was with people, I would be my normal self. I had some friends, when I said that I didnât want to hang out, they were a little more pushy. I could be convinced at times, and I donât know if thatâs because they sensed something or if thatâs just how they are and they really wanted me to come hang out with them. I donât know if they necessarily consciously felt that I needed it. I think my persona that I put forth all the time was that everything was always cool and everythingâs fine. If I didnât want to hang out, I would make up a good enough reason where it didnât seem suspicious. I wouldnât say, âIâm not feeling wellâ or âIâm not in the mood.â I would say, âIâm doing this or Iâm doing thatâ so it never set off any alarms for anyone when there was that shift. It also came with college ending too. Relationships and dynamics started to change at the point where youâre not seeing people all the time. People are starting to go their separate ways, and that facilitated my being able to pull back. It was good timing to do it in a way that didnât seem suspicious to anyone paying attention.â
Now, where you are today? What do your coping skills look like? How are you finding that balance between being social and also honoring your own space and time to yourself?
âThat is tough. Iâm trying to give myself time by myself to just sit and reflect, and also to kind of dive back into the things I got joy and satisfaction out of, like working on music, playing ultimate Frisbee, riding my bike, things like that. Iâm trying to be more active in a way I feel is productive for me as a person, because itâs very easy for me to say I donât feel like doing anything and Iâll try tomorrow, or just do nothing. Iâm trying to get back into the things I feel satisfy me, make me feel fulfilled, and help me grow and learn. Therapy is helping a lot. I also make time to reflect on therapy: What did I say last week? What do I want to talk about next week? How do I feel about this? I feel like it would be very easy to fill up my whole schedule with âstuffâ from session to session, with no growth in between.
âWhen I used to take guitar lessons, my teacher would say that I couldnât not practice between this lesson and the next, or Iâd never get better. So, when youâre not here with me, you need to be doing work on your own and I thought âyeah, youâre rightâ and thatâs what I started to do, and Iâm taking the same sort of approach with therapy and making sure I have time to myself to sit and think, even though itâs unbearably boring at times or scary too because what if I sit and think and donât come up with the answer? Iâm thinking through things that are uncomfortable or reaching conclusions that are uncomfortable, but Iâm trying to train myself. I guess productivity is my main goal in terms of facilitating my own personal growth. Not to say that Iâm perfectâIâm still distracting myself to some extent, but Iâm trying to be more conscious of it. I ask myself, âAm I doing this activity right now because it brings me joy and because I want to do it, or am I doing it because Iâm avoiding having to deal with myself?â Iâm kind of checking myself every step of the way, which has been helping. Iâm really investing in time and reflecting on my own growth and getting back into the things I love, and this has been helpful. Itâs not like you can just flip a switch, so itâs been tough. Every day, I have to convince myself that I have to try today.â
What has the process of losing Annabelle taught you about grief?
âIâve never felt anything like it. My grandma died a year before that. She was sick towards the end of her life and she was very old (in her nineties). My primary feeling when she died was relief that she wasnât suffering anymore. She had had a good run. We all loved and appreciated what she gave to us and her time came to an end.
âThe first couple of weeks after Annabelle died, I was consumed; it was all I could think about. All the different things, like I said earlier, regretting not being there for her more, talking to her more, thinking about her last moments, and what were those like. Thinking âman, she woke up that day, not knowing that that was going to be her last day.â That got me to thinking âtoday might be my last day and not even know it.â All these thoughts I would never think were consuming me for a while. Early on, I got a lot of support from friends and family reaching out, and it was good during that time when all those thoughts were consuming me, but then you realize all that stuff goes away after a while, which is natural. There are still some people who would check in once in a while. That first couple of weeks were a whirlwind, and now itâs sort of something that just sits with me all the time. In some ways, itâs good. I feel thatâs my motivation to better myself and I think, âI need to be more like Annabelle.â Thatâs kind of what I lean back on, and itâs helped me in that sense. I guess I didnât expect for it to be so long-lasting and so intense early on. Iâm not the type of person that cries ever, but I could not help but cry at so many different points; it would just happen. It brought me closer to my family, to some extent, at least on that side. I have another half-sister, who is Annabelleâs whole sister â it made me want to cherish that relationship more in an active way, and be more a part of her life. The intensity and length of time that it stays with you, and then how it has morphed now, itâs sad, but the last gift to me, was to make me a better person in her honor. I didnât really expect to have it stick with me.
âI still think about Annabelle and how cool she was, and I need to be as cool as she wasâthe lasting feeling Iâm trying to hold onto. Iâve never felt anything as intense as that feeling, whether good or bad. It was an experience and it kind of shocked the system at the right time because I had become numb or indifferent to everything. I didnât really feel happy or sad about anything that was going on and it made me say, âWow, there are some things that can happen to you, no matter how down you are, that you canât help but feel to the fullest.â I realized that I wasnât a total robot, I could feel this, and it was horrible. Even during those times that I didnât try to socialize much, I tried to spend a lot of time in solitude because I didnât want to distract myself and remember thinking that I felt sad, and I didnât want to take my mind off it, even when someone would ask me to go out for a drink or do something. I wanted to feel super sad about this because it was something I should feel super sad about, and she deserves to have me feel super sad about it. I didnât want to distract myself from that feeling. I wanted to own it, understand it, and feel it to the fullest. It was very complex, Iâd say. I was not well equipped. I hadnât dealt with a death in that way before. It was intense.
It sounds like it opened the door for you to feel lots of difficult emotions you had been holding onto for years, and it also prepared you to begin dealing with them.
âYeah, I think thatâs true. Like I said, openly crying and having people see that, people reaching out to me and telling them that I felt awful in a way that I felt was justified or understandable. Prior to this, I felt embarrassed to say I was having a bad day, I felt sad, Iâm having doubts about my career, or any normal thing that people associated with negative feelings. But this was one thingâwho would judge me for being sad about my sister dying in a car crash? It was something beyond reproach, so I could use it as a springboard to open up about other stuff and understand that people are generally sympathetic to other peopleâs struggles, and I should use it on a smaller scale, and itâs not something as tragic.â
Have you found that being honest with people they are then open to be vulnerable and open with you?
âI think so. I think Iâve experienced that. Iâve had some conversations with people that I think I was not capable of having a year ago, or even eight or six months ago. I think it does set the tone when youâre able to be that way. When youâre closed off, other people will be closed off with you, because no one wants to be the only person being vulnerable. I think I have experienced that in more than one conversation with friends. Thatâs been positive reinforcement. It makes me feel like people arenât going to be, âoh, youâre sad, you suck.â I had this absurd, hypothetical, irrational fear about opening up and that people would be judgmental about it. However, most people say, âI totally get it, I also feel that way, or I feel a different way, but itâs also not great for me.â People feel a lot better about opening up when you open up yourself. Iâve noticed that and it was surprising. It seems obvious in retrospect, and itâs a lesson a lot of people learn at a much earlier age, but I was like, âWow, thatâs kind of cool.ââ
Out of the years of burying your feelings, distracting yourself from them, locking them away, and having this experience of losing Annabelle opening the floodgates for you to start processing all that and integrating parts of yourself into a more authentic, vulnerable, true self, whatâs the takeaway from all this? Whatâs one of the more valuable things youâre gaining from this?
âI think itâs moving forward, I donât have to learn how to just deal with my past, I have to learn how to deal with things as they come now. There are going to be more challenging things in my life. There will be things that are emotionally difficult. Iâve seen what happens if you donât deal with them, and it can affect you in ways you donât even understand. The lesson here is, step one, I have to reconcile my past for myself, but step two is I have to learn how to develop those skills to deal with things now as they happen. My biggest takeaway is to trust my feelings more and, if I do feel bad about something, I have to say it, deal with it, and, if I need support from people, I need to reach out to them and ask for it. I donât want to be having this same conversation in ten years and be like, âMan, my thirties were real tough, I did that whole thing and dealt with my childhood, but then I didnât develop the skills to deal with things so now Iâm dealing with everything retroactively.â I need to learn to deal with things as they happen.â
What advice would you offer to someone who could relate to either your experiences or the feelings that you expressed?
âPrimarily, donât be afraid to ask other people for help. I know that sounds obvious and is something repeated often, but I think a lot of my stuff came from my thinking over the years, âI can handle it, I can deal with it.â Either I would be in denial about it or I would convince myself that I was âfineâ and I dealt with it myself; however, denying it or repressing it is not dealing with it. Relationships are fundamental to the human experience. So, use them to grow and let people care for you, which is a lot easier said than done. Itâs okay to ask people to help you out or just to give an ear to talk through stuff. I used to think that was ridiculous, like âwhy? I donât want to hear about your problems.â My not knowing how to let someone be a good friend to me also prevented me from being a good friend to them. I would say you have to learn to understand your own feelings and know when you need help from someone, and thatâs tough. You have to get to know yourself, what your baseline is, and what youâre feeling, and there are so many different layers to it.
âIf you would have asked me ten years ago how I felt about something, I would have given you an answer, but that would have been a surface answer that I convinced myself of internally, and I didnât even understand that I had been adding these layers of denial and diffusion on top of my actual core feelings. You have to figure out how to get to your own core feelings about stuff.â
Do you have a favorite quote, mantra, song lyric, or something poignant that someone said to you that sticks with you that youâd like to share?
âNothing is coming to mind, but let me think on that. I feel like I often get attached to song lyrics in various points or moments in my life and I think âI can relate to thatâ and thatâs my thing for the day, the week, or whatever.
âI have been listening to a lot of depressing music lately. Iâve been diving into it. I like that thereâs a movement now to untangle the stigma with mental health and stuff like that, because it has been comforting to me to listening to artists who specifically talk about struggling with depression itself. Itâs weird, out of context of the song, itâs not a particularly poignant lyric, but there is this rapper Saba, who has a song, âCare for Me,â which makes sense to what I was saying. One of the lyrics in the first verse of the song says, âI donât know how long Iâve had depression.â That kind of hit me when I heard it, because my therapist told me I probably have it, and Iâve been taking medication for the past month or two since I came to the conclusion that I had it, but I donât know how long Iâve had it because it became part of my normal. I donât know when it happened, and it makes me question how much of my behavior, my decision making, my lifestyle, and other stuff has been impacted by this force within me that I didnât understand. I never really thought about it that way. It was nice to accept that Iâm dealing with it now. In saying I donât know how long Iâve had it is kind of a scary thought to think about.â
Yeah, I can relate. My mother used to refer to me as a child as I was growing up that I was always kind of Eeyore-ish.
âWow, thatâs harsh.â
I can remember that my sisters and I each got a Care Bear that somehow resembled our personality and character, and I got Cloudy.
âDamn . . . Wow!â
Yeah. Who knows how far back it goes? I think the context of what youâre experiencing at any given point in time in your life says a lot about your depression and it was probably a very normal reaction to the environment you were in and the situations you were dealing with.
âYeah. All those years I spent distracting myself it could have been there and I wasnât feeling it because my compulsion to distract myself came from that. Itâs scary to think about.â
Do you think that by sharing these thoughts, experiences, and feelings with me today you could potentially help inspire somebody else or give them hope that theyâre not alone?
âThatâs my hope. When I hear musicians and artists talk about their struggles, it makes me feel that there are other people out there who are experiencing what Iâm experiencing, to some extent. We see it in art and media, but in this format, maybe less so. Thereâs no art behind it; itâs just a conversation. Iâve seen people post about their mental health struggles on social media and I would feel like it was TMI, but part of me was envious, thinking âtheyâre really just putting it all out there.â Hopefully, it does make someone else maybe realize that theyâre dealing with something, or if they already realize it, theyâre okay with accepting it and even letting other people know about it. I hope so; Iâm doing my small part. I think everyone should be more open about this stuff. I can be one more person throwing my hat in the ring:âYep, Iâm in this thing, too.â Maybe it will make someone else feel more comfortable. Who knows? I hope your whole project has that effect.â
I hope so. Itâs my way of throwing my hat in the ring, saying this is where I am, this is who I am, and Iâm trying to use whatever resources I have to bring other people to the table, as well. How has it felt to talk about these experiences and feelings?
âRelieving, I think. Even accepting that there was something I was dealing with and saying it out loud to myself was a relief. Saying it to someone else is a continuation of that. Yeah, it feels good. I think it may have to do with being a little older, seeing it more prevalent in society, and having this horrible thing happen in my life with Annabelle, the fear of being judged for putting this stuff out has kind of fallen by the wayside. Itâs become more important to me to get my authentic self out there. I feel relieved and sort of excited about it. It feels like itâs a first step to a new journey to accept this stuff and put it out there. It feels good.â
Nice. Thank you.
âI appreciate your giving me the opportunity too, because we kind of know each other, but not super well, right? So, itâs sort of like the stranger-on-the-airplane effect going on here where I probably wouldnât have this conversation with a good friend of mine just yet, but with someone who I kind of know and trust, based on just vibes alone. It was a lot easier to get it all out than with someone where maybe the stakes were higher. I donât get the impression that youâre particularly judgmental, but even if you are and you never want to talk to me again, no offense, it doesnât really matter because weâre not great friends. Itâs a little easier.â
What did make you feel safe in doing this?
âI think it was the fact that youâre so open on social media about your stuff, which is good because it goes back to our conversation about people being more apt to being vulnerable when someone else is being vulnerable. I know that you kind of shamelessly put yourself out there. Maybe people do judge you, but it seems like youâve accepted that and dealt with it in your own way. I thought âMan, heâs putting his own shit out there, so why would he judge me for telling him my shit?â I think youâre a good front man for this project. You have that outward persona of openness and vulnerability in sharing. Iâm sure a lot of people who youâve talked to felt comfortable with you for that reason. If you had a guarded personality yourself, I think it would be a lot harder.
I agree. Thanks.
âThank you, man.â
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(Hearts of Strangers)
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What has been one of the most challenging things youâve experienced or are currently experiencing?
âOne of the most challenging experiences of my life has been becoming a quadriplegic. A quadriplegic is a person who canât move all four limbs. The hardest thing about being a quadriplegic isnât the physical paralysis; itâs the mental paralysis that comes with it. Since I was young, Iâve had anxiety and depression, which have worsened since my car accident and becoming a quadriplegic. The reason itâs so hard is because (I was 23 when I first got in the car accident) I didnât really know what I wanted to do with my life. One of the hardest challenges has been finding my lifeâs purpose, which is even harder when youâre anxious, depressed, not wanting to live, and trying to come up with ways to kill yourself, which is impossible when you canât move your arms or neck. The other hard part is finding the motivation. Depression kind of saps you of motivation to do anything. Iâm intelligent enough to know that thereâs a different life I want to live. I could daydream about it and see it, but I couldnât reach it. It took me about fifteen years to battle this. Iâm a late learner, but I finally got through it, and Iâm still getting through it. What I did to get through this challengeâI met with a therapist, I got on an antidepressant, and started to do some real mental health work. Right now, my life is looking a lot different than when I first got injured and in the middle of my injury.â
You talked a little bit about having anxiety before the car accident happened. Tell me a little bit about that? What was causing the anxiety?
âI first realized I was having anxiety when I was with my friends. I wouldnât feel comfortable in large groups of people. I felt awkward, so I knew something was different about me. I judged my insides by peopleâs outsides. I also realized I was much less happy than my friends. I think, when I was younger, I was depressed; I just didnât know it. This was all around the time I was 13 or 14 years old. Around this time, I discovered alcoholâit was a great numbing agent. I would drink myself into blackout states and that would be okay with me. Iâd have fun in the beginning of the drink, but then I was a mess. The older I got, I discovered drugs. Basically, I was a garbage pail kidâanything I could get my hands on, I would do. I was doing that to fight the anxiety and depression.
âThis came to a head when I was 17 and my mom died. I was in shock for months. She was in a coma for a week from an asthma attack and we had to make the decision to take her off life support. As a young man, 17 years old, I really didnât have the tools to deal with losing my mother. My father didn't have the tools either. He came from that 1950âs era of men are silent, we shove our feelings inside. So thatâs what I did, except they kept trying to come out and, luckily, I discovered drugs and alcohol, and that kept me comfortable and numb. I continued to battle the depression, anxiety, and the loss of my mother  with alcohol and drugs until that came to another head. I became homeless and was living in a shelter. I got kicked out of the shelter. I was sleeping in my car, wherever I could find a place. Luckily, I had a car.
âAs more time passed by, I began feeling helpless, and friends turned away from me because I was a mess. My parents were doing the tough love thing. I wasnât allowed at the house. None of that seemed to help. So, one day I decided I was going to kill myself. Luckily, Iâm still here. I was 21 at the time. From there, my story changes. I decided to get help. I went to therapy and I discovered the root of my anxiety and depression. I went to AA and NA meetings. I was sober for two years and, when I was 23, thatâs when the car accident happened.â
You had already decided that you were going to turn your life around and start to deal with some of these underlying wounds, and you get hit with something else?
âYes. I said a big fuck you to God ⊠How could you do this to me now? That was hard to deal with, especially because when I was first brought to the hospital, they intubated me. I put my head to the side, closed my eyes, and stuck out my tongue. I was trying to tell them âjust kill me, just let me die.â The pain was the worst I had ever felt; I was so uncomfortable. I had a lot happen to me in a small period of time, and I had just started to deal with that. After I got home from the hospital and rehab, I reverted right back to being anxious and depressed. I was seeing a therapist, but I was purely keeping my issues topical. How do you prepare for a life in a wheelchair? Society tells you what a man is supposed to be and here I am, feeling like an adult baby. Being home was difficult.â
Tell me about the day of the accident, if you donât mind.
âOn May 21, 2003, I was making a mix CD using Napster or Lyme Wire, and I was late for work (I remember that). I got on I-95 going South, traffic was stopped ahead of me, I slowed down, I checked myself out in the rear-view mirror, and I happen to see a tractor-trailer approaching that wasnât going to stop. Quickly, through my head, I said âjust open the door and jump out,â but there was so little time. So I just braced myself upon the steering wheel and waited for the impact. The impact came, it was the loudest noise I ever heard. The tractor-trailer behind me pushed my Volkswagen Golf into a tractor-trailer ahead of me. When the rescue workers got there, they couldnât see my car. They just saw two tractor-trailers touching. While I was in the Volkswagen, I was knocked unconscious (I donât know for how long). When I woke up, I saw a drop of blood on my right arm, and I couldnât move my right arm, so I thought to myself âokay, my arm must have been amputated during the crash. If thatâs the worst that happened, I can live with that.' I tried to move, but I couldnât. I figured it was because the dashboard was on top of my legs so, in my head, paralysis was not an option, it wasnât a thought. I didnât know about paralysis. Paramedics and firefighters arrived and the last thing I did with my left hand was squeeze the firefighterâs hand to let him know I was alive. Those guys were great, I still keep in touch with them, and they saved my life.â
From there, you were brought to the hospital. Did you recognize that you were worse off than you initially thought you were?
âYes. I started to do a kind of self-diagnosisâlike why canât I move? Then, they started to ask me âcan I feel this?â âCan you feel me pressing on your leg?â âCan you feel me pressing on your stomach?â I kept saying no and started to freak out, yelling at the nurses âwhy canât I feel? whatâs going on?' Nobody was saying anything. About this time, my family arrived. I donât believe in God, but, before the tractor-trailer hit me, I prayed to my mom to protect me. The first thing I said to my stepmother, Jane, was that my mom is here on my shoulder. I donât know if itâs a coincidence, if Iâm looking for meaning, but it means a lot to me.â
Youâre recognizing in the hospital that youâre in bad shape, youâre in a lot of pain, your familyâs there, youâre trying to signal through your facial expressions âjust cut me loose,â that doesnât happen, clearly, you make it through rehab, you get home, and youâre still in a dark spot. Youâre suffering with depression, your anxiety has returned, and youâre feeling suicidal again. Are you self-medicating, as well?
âNo, I wasnât able to self-medicate because I canât grab pills. So that was rough, but I was slowly dealing with it. After two and a half years of living home, I told Jane that I had to move out, I had to be on my own. So, I moved to a place in Farmville called New Horizons, itâs an assisted living facility, and I lived there for a year. I learned how to live on my own, which I never thought that someone who is paralyzed can do. I found my girlfriend there, fiancĂ©e actually. So, it was a good place for me. After that, I moved into a condo and I lived there for a couple of years. I broke up with my fiancĂ©e. We had a house built in Bristol for her, her son, and me. I decided to move to Bristol so I wouldnât waste this gorgeous house that I built, and I lived there for about eight years. The whole time I mostly isolated myself. I wouldnât go to family dinners or get-togethers, but sometimes, I would; it was up and down. Now, I know it was depression. When I lived in Bristol, I can remember opening pill bottles with my teeth to take, so I would self-medicate, but it was hard to do. Most of the time, I would drop them and get more pissed.
âMy story picks up again in August 2017. I went to the hospital because I felt like I couldnât breathe. They put me on a regular hospital floor, which means that there are two nurses for too many patients and one aide for all of the patients. Iâm a quadriplegic so I need lots of help. I wasnât doing well on the floor. They werenât listening to my complaints about not being able to breathe. Long story short, it ends up that my lungs were completely plugged with mucus from top to bottom. They do a bronchoscopy and give me a trach (which is a tracheostomy). They give this to me because my diaphragm wasnât working the way it was supposed to be and I needed another airway. I had the tracheostomy to clear my secretions and to give me an open airway. Having a tracheostomy means that I require 24-hour care, so thereâs always someone with me. This is a big change after living on my own.
âThis time when I got out of the hospital, I went home and started passing out. One time, I actually coded and my step-mom brought me back. It turns out that I was bradycardic, which means I had a low heart rate. So, now I have a pacemaker. It was at this time that I met my therapist, Kerry, and my life started to change. Thereâs something about her that invited me in to talk about myself. I opened up and we got down to business right away. Like I said, Iâm a late bloomer, Iâm 39 years old. It took me all this while to figure some stuff out. With the help of medicine, therapy, a lot of hard work, and gratitude, Iâm in a much better place today.â
I imagine that it would be pretty easy to remain in a negative space and to feel sorry for yourself and be upset with the circumstances, yet, somehow, youâve found the will to live, you found space for gratitude, you found an opening in terms of  an awareness to look at yourself and to open yourself up in therapy, which I think is probably a huge difference from where you were prior to the accident because you talked about just skimming along the surface, very topically. Tell me about how you got to those places of transformation, gratitude, and the willingness to dive in a little deeper.
âIâve always been introspective. When I lie in bed at night, my brain does not stop; Iâm constantly thinking about my interactions with people and how I feel. Iâm constantly criticizing the way I think or act. Iâm very hard on myself. With that being said, Iâve always been aware of what was going on. I just had it shoved deep inside me. The first thing we did was start a gratitude list, which I try to do in the morning when I wake up, just in my head, a couple of things Iâm thankful for, sit and stew in it. Itâs a good start to the day.â
Does that often lead you to think of more than two or three things to be grateful for?
âOh, yes, no doubt; it starts a steamroll effect.â
I find that practice to be beneficial in my own life, as well, because itâs really easy to get stuck in how we want things to be, to get angry that theyâre not the way we want them to be, and to forget all the many blessings we have before us. That can kind of change your mind set in an instant.
âThatâs what Iâm kind of struggling with reverting back to that negative place and staying in a positive place. Like I said, Iâm a late learner, but I just learned the difference between personality and attitude.â
Whatâs the difference?
âPersonality is what youâre given. Â Attitude is what you make.â
How has your life changed since you described this anxious kid ⊠Were you living on your own at the time of the accident?
âI was living at home.â
So, you were living at home and you had started to develop a sense that you wanted to live a different way. You were on your way to work and, in a split second, your whole life changed and you were launched into a completely different trajectory. You spiraled back into depression and anxiety and had a sense of wanting to numb out and escape the way you were feeling. You find yourself back in that dark space. You move onto a living situation where youâre more independent and you find a love interest ⊠you didnât really get into the relationship, but you decide to part ways?
âWe did.â
You move into this house that you had built. Through some other health issues, you then come to a space where you need 24-hour care. So, you went from a sense of independence to needing 24-hour company and care. You described yourself earlier as struggling with being an adult baby. Iâm sure that played into what was going on in your mind, as well as criticizing and beating yourself up and then you get into therapy with a therapist who it sounds like has been life changing. At some point, it seems like you gained a sense of will to live and to keep moving along. What changed?
âThe will to live is the story of my life since the accident. Iâm driven by seeking out answers to questions that are known to all humans. What does it all mean? Â Why am I here? What comes next? Whatâs my purpose? All those questions kept me going, even through the darkest times. I just knew there had to be something different. I knew it was a choice. â
Why do you think youâre here? What do you think your purpose is?
âWhat Iâm doing now is trying to inspire people through my artwork and through my writing. I try to put down on paper something that someone else can read and relate to if theyâre going through a dark time, a happy time, no matter what it is.â
Has that been therapeutic for you?
âYes, very cathartic. The art and painting has been the most cathartic.â
Were you writing and painting prior to the accident?
âI was writing, but never painting before.â
Tell me about how you got into painting.
âWhile at Gaylord, I remember seeing a video of a gentleman painting with a paintbrush in his mouth. I knew I could do it, so I started to do it, and I could. On April 7, 2019, Â I had my first art show.â
Thatâs amazing. How does it feel to be able to create art and writings that people can connect to?
âThe praise I got from the art show totally blew my mind.â
It sounds like through this process of having something taken away from you, youâve also gained something simultaneously.
âYeah. I donât think my life would be on the trajectory itâs on now if the accident hadnât happened.â
Thatâs interesting because I think a lot of people look at life as a straight road or path. They kind of set milestones for themselves and think this one thing is going to lead to the next and we often get frustrated with the challenges and obstacles that arise in our lives. But, often, in hindsight, we can see that had it not been for that challenge or obstacle, it wouldnât have led us to the thing that weâre extremely grateful for thatâs allowed us to reach a higher sense of self or purpose in our lives, and it sounds like thatâs been your experience.
âI would agree with that.â
What sort of coping skills have you used to get through these hard times in your life?
âRight now what I do, especially when Iâm anxious, I put all of my anxieties in a sort of mental hot air balloon and I let the hot air balloon go into the sky.â
So, you envision it?
âYes, I envision it, or Iâll start counting, saying random numbers, because your brain canât process the anxiety and do something else at the same time. So, you trick it with doing long division or something.â
So, you give it another task to do besides worry?
âI do.â
That helps to derail it from the process of getting stressed and anxious.
âI paint. Even when I donât want to, I do it. Thereâs just something about it ⊠I feel more alive when Iâm creating.â
I feel you on that and I think thatâs probably true for a lot of artists. Itâs not necessarily about what theyâre trying to paint, the audience that theyâre trying to connect with, or whether or not this is going to be a masterpiece in a museum someday, but itâs about the act of being so present in that moment where youâre connected with creation. When you think about what your beliefs around God are, thatâs the energy of creation, thatâs transformation. When youâre tapped into a space of vulnerability where youâre moving something from your internal space to your external space, thatâs the source right there, right? Â I could see how that could be really cathartic and a moment where youâre not attached to thinking about the future and stressing about it or ruminating over the past. Youâre just there in that moment.
âYou said it perfectly.â
Thank you. Â What is it that you hope people will learn from your story and your experiences?
âThat thereâs a reason to go on. You have to make the reason, which is hard, but thereâs a reason.â
It probably entails having to change the story you tell yourself.
âExactly.â
What was the story you were telling yourself when you were in the negative space?
âIâm not good enough ... Iâm worthless ... I canât do anything ... Â Whoâs going to love me? I want to dieâthings like that.â
And what did you spin that around to?
âI spun that around to I survived a suicide attempt. I survived a car accident. I survived coding multiple times. I survived another car accident. Thereâs a reason for me to be here.â
Youâve been in two car accidents?
âYeah. One that brought me into the wheelchair, and one I somehow narrowly escaped from.â
Wow! Were you in a vehicle at the time or were you a pedestrian?
âI was in Vermont and I took a turn down a hill. I fishtailed and tried to go with the turn, but I was so nervous, I probably jerked the wheel, spun around, flipped the car over, and skidded down the hill on the hood of my car. Luckily, no cars were coming and I survived. I jumped out of the car and nothing was wrong with me.â
Wow! What more confirmation do you need in your life to prove that youâre supposed to be here?
âEveryone around me, before I got to this point, telling me exactly what you just said. I didnât believe it. But I do believe it now.â
What have you learned about yourself through this process?
âI learned that Iâm incredibly strong, sensitive, and determined. Iâd say those are three good qualities I learned.â
If you donât mind, Iâd like to ask you about your relationships. I think for many people who have some sort of disability or have been through some sort of struggle that has broken them down emotionally, or even, physically in some way, they see themselves as unlovable. They feel like theyâre incapable of being loved and often donât even love themselves. So, for you, it sounds like within a few years of getting rehabilitated and becoming independent, you were able to open yourself up to a loving, romantic relationship. Tell me about that, if you donât mind.
âWhen we met, it was amazing. We had so much in common. We went everywhere. I didnât feel encumbered by my wheelchair. Our relationship was no different than people who are able bodied. The problem was, as time went on, I was kind of just putting my best foot forward and my depression and anxiety came out and she couldnât live with someone like that.â
In opening your heart up to her, it also kind of unleashed some of your insecurities?
âAt the time, I didnât love myself; maybe a little on good days. I barely liked myself, Iâd go as far to say.â
There's some truth to that clichĂ© statement âYou canât love somebody else, until you actually love yourself.â What was the process of learning to love yourself like?
âLike I said, in the morning gratitude is big. If I can find gratitude, I can find something to love ⊠I can love myself. I went back into my childhood and told the child that it was okay, heâs worthy of love. I told the teenager, who was searching, to end the pain in his life. I told him the pain will go away. I told the quadriplegic me, that it will get better.â
It sounds like youâve done some powerful work in therapy.
âYes, I have, and Iâm proud of it.â
You should be. Many people find themselves in therapy because theyâre forced into it. Theyâre going because they think they should, but theyâre not actually being honest with themselves. If youâre not willing to be honest with yourself, thereâs not a lot of work you can do besides just tell the therapist what you think they want to hear. I did that for a number of years myself and didnât get anything out of therapy. It kind of made me a little biased against therapy, thinking, âOh, what good can come out of talking about your problems?â, and later realized I wasnât really bringing to the table the roots of any of my issues I was suffering from in my life. It wasnât until I started doing that, that things began to change. Maybe you can speak to this. Was it a comfortable process?
âNo, it wasn't a comfortable process. I just spoke with my therapist yesterday and we went over what you and I would talk about today, and that was very uncomfortable. To go back into the pastâit brings up all those feelings.â
What do you do when you have an intense, really uncomfortable, even painful session with your therapist? How do you move back into a space that is comfortable and safe?
âIâll change the subject right away. Sheâll laugh and say âI could tell you were getting to this point.â Then, we just talk and Iâm myself again.â
You kind of test the limits of how far you can go. When you realize youâve come up against a barrier or space that is too painful or too uncomfortable, you just back it up a few feet, and then you move from that space?
âRight, and the great thing is that, after about ten minutes, it will be in my mind, and Iâll mull it over, bring it up again, and get past that point.â
I think thatâs a beautiful metaphor and technique for any sort of challenge or obstacle in lifeâkeep trying. If you meet an obstacle you canât overcome the first time, take a break, recollect yourself, and try again. Eventually, you overcome it and move past it and, on the other side, thereâs more open space, more opportunity for growth. I think a lot of times, our lives can become smaller, more isolated, and more miserable when we let fear define the space we operate in. We donât challenge the fear because it feels terrible; itâs really uncomfortable.
âThatâs what Iâm working on now. I tend to isolate myself, which is fear of going outside the house. So, Iâve been going out to paint and run errands, anything to get out of the house. Just trying to flip the script. Trying to get out of my comfort zone.â
I imagine if you built your house, you were able to adjust it to your needs. So, tell me about going into public, some of the challenges that youâve encountered.
âMe feeling uncomfortable ⊠Are people looking at me? Theyâre staring. That kind of stuff. Sometimes it brings me down. Basically, aside from a sidewalk not having a proper lip, there aren't many challenges.â
Nothing you canât overcome, having been through what youâve been through already?
âYeah.â
Itâs probably given you quite a sense of strength and resilience, all of the different moments in your life where you were pushed to the brink of either giving up or even death, and yet still coming out on the other side, willing to show up to life and whatever that moment presented to you.
âI donât want it to sound all peaches, because I still think about death. I think about how I would end my life when Iâm having bad days. I know how I would do it, but I donât want to, but I still have those days, and thatâs why itâs a work in process.â
When you have those bad days, what tools do you utilize?
âIâll call my therapist or somebody in my family. Sometimes, I sit and stew in it because Iâm used to the comfort I used to get from that. What else do I do? Iâll try to do something different, Iâll do an activity, even if itâs just going on the computer.â
In twelve-step programs, they say move a muscle, change a thought. It seems really simple, like oh thatâs not a substantial thing, that wouldnât make a difference, but it really does seem to make a difference. Whether itâs picking up a phone and calling somebody, washing dishes, or just moving your feet a few paces, it can be enough to change your thinking.
âTwelve-step programs have some of the best sayings.
Yeah, right; theyâre full of slogans. Â Do you still go to meetings?
âNo, I donât.â
Where do you find support?
âRight now Iâm looking to join a support group for that reason.â
Yeah, certainly there are people who have had similar experiences.
âThere are people I can learn from and there are people who can learn from me.â
Where do you see yourself and what do you see yourself doing with these experiences, in the sense of wanting to share your story and inspire others?
âRight now, Iâm trying to sell my artwork and I want to publish my poetry.â
Tell me about the writing process. It seems like you donât have use of your hands. So, how do you write?
âI use Dragon to dictate. I do miss writing. I loved the art of writing and penmanship.â
Itâs incredible that youâve found ways, with limitations, to connect your mind with your heart, and then share it with the world around you. Thatâs inspiring.
âI called my art show âA Work of Heart.'â
A Work of Heart? Â I love that.
âExcept I looked on line and somebody has a workshop with that name, so I canât use that. I made tee shirts and everything.â
Did you? Â Thatâs great. I know when we were leading up to this interview, walking to the park today, you had expressed that you had some nerves around sharing your story and you had processed this a little bit in your therapy session leading up to this. Having made it through most of the interview now, how are you feeling?
âPretty good. Â Much less nervous.â
Good. I may have asked you this already, but what advice would you give somebody who is struggling, is in a dark place, or is processing some grief in their lives ⊠what sort of hope or inspiration would you offer them?
âIâm the worst at giving advice.â
Think about it in terms of yourself.
âI would want someone to tell me that it gets better. I would want someone to hold me until I cry, because thatâs something I donât do enough of.â
Yeah, that got me. Wow.
âI just want people to know that it gets better and, if theyâre at that point, please donât end your life, because thereâs a reason youâre here.â
Right on. We donât often know what the reason is, but it is revealed to us through time.
âYou have to believe.â
How has it felt to share your experiences, thoughts, and feelings with me today?
âItâs great because it reminds me of what I want to do.â
Is there a quote, a piece of advice, a song lyric that resonates with you that youâd like to share?
âOnce in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places, if you look at it right.â
What does that mean to you?
âItâs half my life. Iâve been through all of these downs and darkness, but all the while, if I looked, there could have been light. It also means that it wasnât until I reached those low points that I came to know myself.â
It was part of the process?
âYes. The work starts at the bottom.â
I like to think of that in terms of nature. Often, when weâre growing something, we have to bury a seed in the darkness of the soil, even with the manure, the shit (the shitty experiences)âand it takes thatâa little bit of rain, some sun, and a lot of pressure and pain. The seed experiences pain in order to burst out of the shell and come up through the dirt to find the light. I think thatâs true in our own lives as well, as human beings. It takes that darkness, pressure, and transformation to give us the strength and the resilience to move through whatever dirt stands in our way to reach towards the light.
âThatâs a good analogy. I have a lotus tattoo and they grow in mud. So, this beautiful flower emerges from mud. I think it goes back into the mud at night and re-emerges the next day. I find that significant.â
You canât have one without the other. They need each other. It sounds like youâve learned a lot from your darkness.
Matt: Â Still learning. Itâs great that I do all this work by myself with my therapist but, without expressing it to the world, what good is it? Sharing my story with you helps me to see where Iâm at today.â
It helps you sow more seeds.
âYes.â
I realized that too in therapy, which is why these interviews have a very therapy-like style to them. If what we talk about in therapy, and how we open our hearts, and bring more awareness and insight to the pain and wounds in our lives and how to heal, stays behind the doors and walls of an office and never extends beyond that into our relationships, our community, and the people we interact with on a daily basis, what good is it? I think the greatest impact we have is to share who we are and what weâre going through with each other; thatâs how we learn. You clearly recognize that and you have the courage to do that, because it does take courage.
âJust the other day, I made myself vulnerable when I told a woman how I felt about her. That was huge.â
I think without being vulnerable, we canât access the very things that we long for ⊠the joy, gratitude, pleasure, connection, and love.
âAnd the great part was that it didnât go as I expected. So, now Iâm dealing with rejection, and thatâs okay. Because I made myself vulnerable, and that was a big step for me.â
If we were all to give up after feeling that first sting of rejection, we would miss out on so much. Eventually, through 10 noâs and go fuck yourselfâs, someone says yes and we would never get to that place if we gave up. Thank you, Matt, for sharing your story.
âThank you, Corey, for letting me share my story.â
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What has been one of the most challenging things youâve experienced or are currently experiencing?
âThe molestation of my son when he was 11 years old; I miss him being a part of my life. It was tearing me apart, spiritually within, and I started using drugs even harder. Because there was so much other stuff that I was going through, but that was the bottom that drew me deeper and deeper into hell. The thought of someone having sex with my son and I couldnât stop itâit was mind boggling. It was all I could ever think of and I would smoke, smoke, and smoke to stay up because I was afraid to go to sleep. That was the most destructive thing in my life, and heâs not in my life now. I used to try to talk to him about it, but he still says that it didnât happen, so I leave it alone. Heâs grown now. He liked the man and liked what he was doing to him. Thatâs his journey. Thatâs his purpose. For a long time, I blamed myself because I wasnât there. He was the child I protected. When he was a baby, I always felt somebody was going to do something to him. I always had him with me because I always felt somebody was going to hurt him. I donât know why I had that feeling. I carried him forever. People would say, âWhen you going to put that boy down and let him walk?â I protected him, not knowing why.
âWhen it happened, I went to the school because I was so depressed I couldnât work. Being on the State, with food stamps and all of that stuff, I was embarrassed because I was raised that you donât get on relief, you donât get on the State, you work for what you get. If thereâs something you want and you canât afford it, itâs not meant for you to have; thatâs how I was raised. Be independent and self-sufficient. After I got hurt on the job, I came here and ended up on the State with my children. I was so tired of getting a check twice a month up here. I just wanted to get a job, but people up here would say, âGirl, you want to get a job?â When I called DCF when what happened with my son, they said, âYou must be crazy. Youâre going to get your check cut,â and I said, âMy check? I donât care about the check.â I wanted to help my son and I wanted to get a job. Knowing what my son was going through, I brought him to Clifford Beers; I went right on the bicycle to Clifford Beers. I feel like I put money in front of my son by getting a job and nobody would help me.
âI was getting ready to go to workâI went to school, and the lady who watched Musadi would come there. I went to school on the Boulevard at night, and I came home one night and they had been there. He had had sex with Musadi and he had sex with Leanne, and he was really, really upset because the man gave Pam his money, and she was going give him $20, and he said she didnât give him his $20 and he wanted his $20. I thought they just sold my son. I was just so afraidâI could have called the police and told on her. Fear is something. Fear is something, you know. I just miss him.â
Who is Pam?
âShe was a lady who lived on Beer Street. She was a dealer. I didnât know she was into that, her and her husband. Then I found out that they called her husband âBlack,â his real name was John, and it turned out that he was the one. I blamed myself for years. I trusted people, but I learned that you have to be careful; sometimes, nice people are perverts. The nicest people to you and you trust them with your child. Thatâs why you have to be careful, but then they put so much fear in the child and thatâs why it took him so long to tell me. They put fear in my son and told him that if he told anyone, they were going to kill his whole family (mother, sister, niece, brother). They said, âIâll kill your whole family.â Thatâs why he didnât tell and held it in for so long; fear that he would hurt us. But I didnât believe he was going to hurt us because I was so close to Almighty, I knew that he lived inside of me; heâs not a person that lived in me, but the spirit that was in me. Even though fear was there, the doubt just didnât go off. Are you going to be smoking crack all of your life? If you donât stop smoking crack, youâre going to die. Wow! This is taking me so many places.â
At this point, youâre sharing that youâre not making enough money through the support of the State to support your child, so youâre going to school, or youâre working, which is taking you away from him?
âI was going to school and was getting ready to get a job working with an agency on Sherman Avenue. It was too much stress on me and I wanted to go to a program. I had called DCF, but they didnât help me get into a program; they just left me. I sent my son down South to his grandfather and his father and Talama got an apartment for her and Annetta. James went at first because his father came and got him.â
Those are your other children?
âYes. James is my oldest son. His grandmother brought his father up here and they took him South. Musadiâs father is from the South too, but he was never in his life. He would be in his life when nobody was around. It used to bother him because one day he asked me, âWhen people are around, why does my daddy act like he doesnât know me?â But, when he went to the park by where we lived, right across from my back door, Stacey would come and teach him how to box, but he doesnât say anything to me when people are around, because he was married. He wanted me to name him one thing, but I wanted to name him Clive, a strong name, because he was my last son. He said he wanted me to name him Jamar Musadi, and I told him, âNope. This is my last child, and Iâm going to name him a family name.â He said, âIf you name my son Clive, Iâm never going to own him,â and he never did. Thatâs what Musadi was looking forâa father. He knew his mother loved him. I always just wanted a man role, but I always made wrong choices. I felt like I neglected him. I wanted a better life, thatâs how I was raised. Even now, Iâm happy and feel good, I have medical coverage and stuff. Plus I worked so hard, and I liked what I did. I have lots of skills. I paid the Federal and the State. All that money that they gave me, I want to give back. I just want to be able to look at what happened with my children. Iâm realizing now that I had nothing to do with it. Iâm at the point now that I donât blame myself because one day he told me that wasnât the first time that happened. He told me that when we lived down South, somebody molested him there too. He never told me who it was, and I always wondered. Wow. When we moved up here, he was in the third grade; it was already happening.â
When did you find out that it was happening? How did you find out?
âHe was eleven. I would get so angry. I knew something was wrong because he would go outside, he would go outside, and then go back and forth, back and forth to the bathroom, making pooh all the time. I would smell it and was wondering why would it be smelling like that. I had a friend named Willie, and we were real tight; he was gay and worked for the bank. We were real good friends. Being that I got to know him, it was helping me a little bit, out there in the front because I couldnât change my son. Trying to find acceptanceâthatâs his life. Sometimes I wanted to know more about it so him and his friend would come over. They would do their thing, thatâs how I found out what the smell was. I would be getting high and they would be on the other side of the room, walking around the house, and thatâs how I got used to the smell. And then Musadi would be in the house, and I would say âWillieâs not here.â Ask me something else.â
Through your relationship with your friend, Willie, you were able to recognize some of the signs that your son was engaging in some of the behavior.
âYes. The person who lived down the street would come home and would have cakes, he always liked cakes. Thatâs how he got him, he would always buy him cakes, and then he would come in the house and I would ask him where he got the cake from, and he would tell me that somebody bought it for him, and I would tell him, âI told you about taking stuff from people. We have stuff here,â and he would say, âI like this.â Thatâs how he lured him.
âWhen we moved up here and, like I said, I wasnât working and it was always me and Musadi. When I did start using drugs, my son didnât get the attention that he always got from me. He wasnât getting it anymore, and I know my baby was kind of lost. He wasnât getting it anymore, and somebody else got his attention. I donât know how that happened down South because he was always with me. He didnât go to a babysitter when we were down South. Itâs something Iâm going to figure out. When we moved up here, our whole lives changed. I already had a bunch of anger with me; a family had stolen our inheritance. I already had a bunch of anger in me. I got so cold. I really had lost me.â
Had you already been using drugs when you moved here?
âNot really; but when I got hurt, the doctor was helping me. Someone came to my house and I was in so much pain, my head was busted, they would give me Xanax and all that stuff. I was sleeping all the time, and someone said, âTry this.â I knew that cocaine was for pain. I learned that in high school. One of my friendâs parents were doctors, and I knew that they used it for pain. To me, cocaine was a good thing. I remember when I was in high school, I would get powder and I would take four blows, three times a day, so that I could cook, lift pots and stuff, go wash clothes and take the boys to the park. It would numb the pain, but then when I got up here, I didnât trust people and didnât want to get high with people, so I had a friend of mine come up here and we tried the freebase. I wanted to help people, but how can you help somebody when you know nothing about it? He came up here and I got high for seven days, and we got some crack. I was going to quit after seven days, but that doesnât work. Then I learned that the pain goes away really quick with crack.
âWhenever I would go to a program, come back and be clean, all that excruciating pain would come back. I never was into pain-killers so I would go back to smoking crack. I got so far out there, not knowing who the person was doing it to my son. I wanted to kill everybody, I really did. Every time he would tell me somebody, and then he would say itâs not them. There was one guy, he was working, and he would always come by on Thursday, and Musadi said that it was him. My plan was, he would come over on Thursday and he always put a big lug on his pipe, he would stand up, and he would be outside of himself, his spirit wouldnât even be in his body. So, that day, I was planning on him taking a big hit and my boys had a bat behind the door. My goal was when he took that big giant hit, Iâd snatch the bat, hit his knees, and when he was down on his knees, I would beat him in the head. I had planned that out. When he grabbed his head and fell on the floor, I would beat his dick up. Thatâs how angry I was.
âHowever, that night I got set up. Somebody called. I wasnât supposed to be going anywhere that night. A girl came to my house. I had told her not to come to my house at night, as I was meditating and I didnât want to see anybody. She came with a guy, and she knew I didnât play that, I didnât want anybody bringing strangers to my house, and then she wanted a beer, but she didnât want to go down to the after-hours spot. She was always prostituting and I didnât prostitute back then, I hadnât gotten to that point. She said she wanted a beer, wanted something to drink. I told her that I wasnât going to the after-hours spot because I had my pajamas on. Then the guy asked me for $20, and I told him I didnât want to smoke that night. You can get two for me and she said, âCome on, Mom,â and I told her not to come to my house. And then after I was putting my coat on over my pajamas, a thought hit me, wear a coat, because I knew that something was going to happen. I put on a leather coat with fur around the collar; I had never worn that coat in New Haven and I wore that particular coat to the after-hours spot. When I was walking down Edgewood Avenue, I saw a police car in front of me, with the lights blinking. I was thinking that I didnât do anything and I walked past them. I would always say hi, and they never bothered me. When I walked past him, he snatched me and threw me on the car, on the back door. I knew I hadnât done anything so I elbowed him and asked why he was doing this to me and he told me to get in the car. I thought to myself that something must have gone wrong, maybe heâs protecting me. I got in the car and he asked what my name was.
âI remembered that my boyfriend used to go to Stop & Shop a lot and would come home with lots of meats, and I wondered how he was getting all this meat. He made me go with him one day, and he was throwing all this meat in the buggy. I asked him how he was getting all of that and he told me not to worry about it. I got mad because he was always bringing it home and the boys and I wouldnât eat it. I was pissed off in that store, but if I left, he would beat me up. I was walking around the store, thinking that my boys needed batteries for their cars. I had no money and I donât know what possessed me to get them some batteries and popcorn. I said to myself âIâm getting out of here,â and, as I was getting out of the store, the security guard came up to me and said, âExcuse me, Miss, will you come upstairs?â When he took me upstairs, there was JJ; he had stolen all of those meats. The lady said to me that she could tell that I didnât know how to steal because I was right in the camera. She asked me what I had and I said that I took some batteries for my boys and some popcorn. Thatâs exactly what I had in my pocketbook. I said that I was really sorry, but she had already called the police. She said that she could see that I was getting things for my boys. Then they came and I started freaking out because I was in Stop & Shop and all the people were at the cash registers. The police came, put me in handcuffs, took me to jail with JJ, and then they let me go and gave me a Promise to Appear. I asked them how I was going to get home and they told me to tell the Boss Man that I was coming from jail and heâd take me home. I had never done anything like this before.
âWhen JJ was up there, they asked him what his name was and he said Henry Birch, which was my fatherâs name and he was deceased. I couldnât believe he said that and then he looked at me with that mean face and I knew that I couldnât say anything. I was released with a Promise to Appear. When the day came that I had to go to court, JJ asked me where I was going and I told him that I had to go to court because I have a Promise to Appear and, if I donât do, theyâll have a warrant on me. He said, âOh, you donât need to go to court.â I said, âWhat? Theyâll put a warrant on me and Iâll go to jail, you know that much.â He said, âJust ignore that. You did nothing before and youâre never going to do anything.â So I didnât go. So, that night, when the girl wanted me to go get her something to drink and the police put me in their car and said, âWhatâs your name?â I remembered that JJ wouldnât let me go to court. He would have beat me up, he wouldnât let me go anywhere. I said my name was Charlotte Birch. When the police looked it up, there was nothing under Charlotte Birch, and he told me that I could go. When I was just about to go, he opened the door to let me out, the thing must have made a sound, he got back in the car and said, âYour name isnât Delores Birch, itâs Charlotte Birch.â I didnât really like that name so I didnât use Delores up here. He said that he had to take me downtown, and I had my pajamas on. I asked him why he had to take me downtown and they ended up taking me to Niantic. I cried for three days because my kids didnât have meâI was always home. The lady got Musadi again. This is taking me so many places. I guess it is what it is.
âWhen you have to look at something face to face, for what it really is, there might be pain behind it, but itâs understanding I canât change it. I wouldnât tell the lady what was going on while I was in jail because I was so worried that they were going to get my son. My blood pressure was going up and they put me in the infirmary because my blood pressure was so high they thought I could have had a stroke. I saw a counselor lady and I was crying and crying in her office, and she told me that I have to tell somebody whatâs going on because I could have a stroke because my blood pressure was up to 200 already. I told her what was happening with my son and that he was eleven years old. She said âMiss, youâre not the only one. I donât know what it is, but thatâs the age; it didnât just happen to you.â She said that was the age that they get ahold of kids, that she believed me, and that she was glad that I shared it with her. After I shared it with her, I realized that I had to stop this crying. She told me that I was going to get out and would go to court on Monday; she didnât know why I was sent there and said that I shouldnât have been sent there, that I didnât belong there. I went to court on Monday, the judge got mad and he wouldnât see anybody else, and I was told that I had to go back to Niantic. I was crying and crying again. Eventually, it hit me âwhy are you crying so much?â You know you didnât get sentenced, youâre not supposed to be here. They werenât supposed to send me to Niantic. When the judge found out I was there for nineteen days, he was pissed. I wasnât supposed to be in New Haven because the warrant was from Hamden. New Haven shouldnât have done anything. If anything, when the warrant came up, they were supposed to call Hamden, but they took me.
âWhatever was happening, kept happening with my son. Like I said, my daughter knew the stuff. I think I forgave her, but I tried to get her to say it and she acted like this was nothing. I just donât trust her anymore because she was a part of what was happening to Musadi. Theyâre real close. Theyâre real close.â
Were they both being molested?
âNo, Joselyn wasnât being molested. She never said anything to him, but said that she didnât like him. I would go into the 4 Câs on Grand Avenue and sometimes I would take my granddaughter with me. Thatâs when I found out that Jocelyn wanted to get her own apartment, and she never did anything for her daughter. Her daughter couldnât hug or touch her, nothing. She told me that she was going to get her own apartment; she said that when she turned twenty, people would say, âyouâre twenty years old and still at your motherâs? You can get your own apartment; you got a little girl.â That put juice in my daughterâs mind. I told my daughter that she could get her own apartment, but she couldnât take Annetta with her. I told her that she didnât do anything for her little girl and that she isnât going to let anybody do anything to my granddaughter. Youâre just not going to do it. I told her counselor that she was trying to get her own apartment and asked her to help get her an apartment at the Y for young mothers so they can bond with their kids. To this day, Jocelyn thinks she left home on her own, but me and her counselor worked something out, and then she got her own apartment. I get lost and stuff.â
It sounds like thereâs a significant age difference between Musadi and Jocelyn.
âYes. Jocelyn and James â thereâs nine years, and James is two years older than Jubari. So, itâs eleven years.â
So, youâre in and out of Niantic prison at this time. It sounds like she had gotten her apartment.
âShe had gotten her apartment, then she wanted to come back home, and I told her ânope, youâre not coming back home, youâre going to bond with your daughter because she calls me mommy ⊠you canât come back.â She was a little sassy and stuff anyway. One day I had gone to the 4 Câs and Annetta wanted to come with me. I had gotten a thought ⊠JJâs here so you stay here with JJ. She stayed there at the house with JJ and when I came back from the 4 Câs, my magazines that I had on the table were all torn up, every page was torn up, like she was sitting down, tearing all the pages, all over the living room floor, you could barely see the carpet. The pages were torn and thrown everywhere. I asked her if she was by herself and asked where JJ was, and she said âmommy was hereâ and I said, âYour mother was here; she doesnât even like JJ.â She said, âYes, she was in the room with JJ.â I said, âGet outta here.â I asked her what they were doing and she said that she was in the room talking with JJ. I said, âOh, Annetta, your mother doesnât even like JJ, why would she be talking to him?â Then it dawned on me, she was only 2Âœ years old. I smiled at her, asked what they were saying and she said mommy was saying ow, ow and JJ was saying aah, aah. I asked her where she was sitting and she picked up her little chair, put it right in front of my bedroom door and sat in it. I said to myself this little girl is not lying.
âAbout two days later, I mentioned what Annetta had told me to Jocelyn. I was washing dishes, she back handed Annetta so hard that Annetta flew in the air, landed on her legs at the sink and then she jumped up, ran to her mother, and was crying, crying, crying. Annetta never told me the truth again; she lied all the time, and she doesnât remember. She wonders why her mother acts like that because they have her thinking itâs me. I talked to Jocelyn about JJ and told her that I donât want him. I wondered why he kept coming back here after he was locked up after beating me up, and now I know why; it ainât for me, itâs for you. She just looked at me and I said, âwell, what comes around goes around. You have a little girl right there too, you know â it could come right back to you like that.â Annetta is something, but itâs okay because thatâs how her mother does; Annetta doesnât remember. Jocelyn makes her think itâs me because she loves me, and she just couldnât figure out what was going on between me and her mother. Before she had the twins, she wanted to get us back together and said that she would take us out to dinner and said that we were going to talk. I told her, âhoney, thereâs nothing you can do, and itâs not me; Iâll tell you one thing â itâs not me.â I can forgive what happened; what happened happened, and thatâs it. She doesnât remember what happened. If it wasnât for her, I would have never known that.
JJ used to always tell me that Jocelyn doesnât love me. Sheâs going to hurt real bad one day, he used to say that all the time. I never put two and two together and then I started having dreams of them together. I would tell JJ that I dreamed of him and Jocelyn, and then I would get beat up because I dreamt it. He would beat me up big time for saying that, but it happened.â
Where is your son in all of this?
âMusadi? He was there. Whenever Jocelyn was in the bedroom with JJ, the man with the money would be in the room with Musadi. Jocelyn knew it all the time, she knew all the time. JJ would be with JocelynâIt was a cult thing. Jocelyn was there; I donât know if she knew what they were doing. Whatever they call it ⊠rituals? Yes, rituals because Musadi explained to me how they do it. Then again, she could have been right there doing the rituals, I donât know, but it doesnât matter. I do love her unconditionally and thatâs on her path, but I miss my son and she allowed all this to be happening, and I did so much for her. I stopped my life for her. I couldnât work anymore. I kept her daughter for her so she could go back to school. I couldnât even pick her up because I couldnât lift anything over five pounds. Jocelyn went to school and I wondered how I was going to do this; how could I bathe this little girl. I would put the pad thing on the bed and would do it real easy because I couldnât use any muscles. I would rub around her and would give her oil baths. She was in a towel and I would turn her over by taking her little arms; Annetta was my weights to exercise and made my legs stronger. She loved music when she was an infant. I would put her between my legs, hold her hands and then I would do like this ⊠I was exercising. I would stand up and I would dance with her. She loves to dance now. God blessed Annetta to be my weights because they thought I was never going walk again, never do anything; I would be bedridden forever.â
What happened to you to be in that condition?
âAt the housing department, like I said, they tried everything to do me in. When I had the burning truck, they cut my brakes, and the brakes went out. We were hauling dirt one day at a dumpsite where it was real deep and you could see the tops of the trees. It was muddy that day and Dennis told me to âcome on back, come on back,â but I wouldnât watch him, I would watch my back tires. That day he said there was a woman at the dumpsite that was so deep that when she lifted her bed up, the truck fell down in the dump thing and she died. So, I always watched him because I could never trust him because he always got hurt when I worked with him. I didnât like working with him. I had an old truck and the tailgate would fall off and there was a chain on one side so it wouldnât fall all the way on the ground, but one side would fall off.
âThis particular day it was muddy and, when I lifted my bed up, I didnât go all the way back, even though Dennis was saying, âCome on back, come on back.â I said âshut upâ and just threw my thing up and went back really slow. When it got all the way up, the mud got stuck in the bed so the thing flipped, but when the mud fell, it didnât fall all the way down; it fell in the ditch. So when it fell out of the truck slowly, it fell right here so, therefore, the tires couldnât go anywhere. If it hadnât, my truck would have flipped over; my truck went way up in the air, and he was laughing, laughing, laughing, laughing, and said âjust jumpâ and I was way up there and he was down there. I said âno that I wasnât going to jump because my shirt might get caught on that thing; Iâm not jumping downâ. When I said that I wasnât jumping down there, all of a sudden the front of the truck just came down to the ground and I got out. Dennis said that he didnât know why women worked out here anyway and then he told me that I had to help him put the tailgate back up. I told him that I couldnât lift the heavy tailgate of that old truck; but, then I thought about what my foreman had said. He said that you shouldnât say what youâre not going to do because theyâll never hire any more women; what you do is pretend that youâre doing it, and then say that itâs too heavy, you canât do it. So, that particular day, I made motions, and I had the side with the chains and was lifting like this here, but wouldnât take my eyes off of Dennis. So, I was looking at Dennis and it was getting really heavy, so I looked real quick to see how much chain I had left and, when I did like that, he just let his end go and it whiplashed me. He was just laughing, laughing, laughing. The whole tailgate shifted on me. When it happened, I flexed like this, but I didnât know if I was standing because I couldnât feel my legs. I didnât know if I was standing or my legs were broke, and it was up to here. I stood there for a while, took some breaths, and I just looked down (I didnât want to bend yet). I looked down and saw my boots on the ground. My feet had gone into the mud. Now, if it hadnât been muddy that day, I would have broken my back; the mud had become a cushion. He put it back on there and I went and told the foreman what Dennis had done and he asked me if I wanted to go home. I said that I didnât, that Iâd be okay, and I took it easy that day.
âAfter work that day, I went to the laundromat and, when I finished drying, all of a sudden, all in here just locked up and I couldnât walk. I wondered what happened and then I had a spasm from the weight of the tailgate. I drove myself to the hospital and they gave me something for muscle spasms. Then it got worse and worse ⊠my neck, everything, my shoulders, I couldnât do anything, I couldnât walk. It just locked up in the nighttime. When I did go to the doctors, nobody would help me. Everybody was saying that I was really, really hurt, but they worked for The State and didnât want to lose their job. I went to lawyers to try to help me, and nobody would help me. My husband had passed and I went down South with my oldest son. People from the Highway Department saw me, and they couldnât believe it. They said that I would never walk again, but God helped me.
âI had gotten a lawyer, Mr. Dewitt. I was hurting so bad and I had driven all the way to Cheraw. I was crying and had to lay down. Cheraw was a good distance from Dillon. It was a black man too. He sat up in his chair and said, âYou worked for the Highway Department? And, how many children do you have? Youâre going to win this thing.â I figured he was really going to help me. I went to go see him and the day the hearing was supposed to be, he called after I took my medicine, around 11:00 at night, and I was out. I had no phone at that time so I had to walk all the way to Lennonâs house and I answered the phone, he apologized for calling so late at night, but said that he was calling to let me know that the hearing for tomorrow had been cancelled. I was kind of glad because I was so drowsy. The next thing I know I had lost the case. I got a letter stating that I lost the case because I wasnât there for the hearing. They had cut off my workerâs compensation and everything. They were really doing it to me, but he tricked me. He got that money and he told me that the hearing was cancelled.
âThere was a lot of depression because I was played in so many different ways that I turned to crack to relieve the pain, but I got the Wellness and stuff; it has helped me so much. Iâm so glad that I didnât go to opiates because I would probably still be on opiates. Being that I met with Wellnessâitâs really helping me fantastically. The stress with my son doesnât bother me as much, but heâs just not in my life, although I havenât stopped loving him. I know theyâre still controlling him. They do, and I donât even get into it with him, especially when he told me that day, âMom, theyâre never going to stop, theyâre never going to stop, because they donât want you to win.â Sometimes I feel the way he is towards me is because of the man. He would tell me things sometimes, it would be just me and him in the house, and he would tell me different things and explain. Then, one day he came in and told me that he couldnât tell me anything anymore because he said âhe knows everything I tell you and he gets really mad.â So, he stopped telling me anything. I donât know if the cult thing still got him or what because he changes up so much. I do know that cult stuff can happen. Through him, my son, especially he explained all the things they do ⊠get in the mirror and call the demons; afterwards, they even had him snorting coke, and that was enough. Deep inside, I feel thatâs the reason why. I still canât believe it was him doing that that day, going to my crotch. It donât be him. Like that lady, that teacherâs wife ⊠she said that somethingâs different in my son because the voice that was coming out of him in the kitchen, while he was tearing everything up, was definitely not my son.â
That was a lady who was fostering him?
âYes.â
You had been telling me before we started the interview, about the hand up your leg. This was your son you were talking about? You were sitting on the couch or lying down?
âI was laying down on my daughterâs bed and he came over, we were talking, and the TV was on. I was laying on my stomach and he put his hand on my leg (and I was thinking âthis is my son â that was a love touchâ). I was laying there, I guess I fell asleep, and I was thinking âwhat is he doing â how far is he going to go?â and I knew how the thing was controlling him. I knew that was not my son doing something like that. Not to startle him, I stretched and yawned. I flew downstairs to tell Joselyn what Musadi just did, and she said âoh, mom, no he didnât.â Thatâs when I realized she was in on this and thought, âwhat do they do?ââ
Did you have a conversation with Musadi about what was happening to him?
âYes, we did conversate, but he didnât say anything. Matter of fact, he told me in the beginning itâs more like that didnât happen. So to say what was happening, he donât go there. To keep from arguing, I stopped talking about it.ïżœïżœïżœ
But when he was young, you mentioned something about having him write with a crayon?
âYes. I had him write with a pencil about what was going on in his life and thatâs when he told me that he feels like heâs in a cage, his heart is outside of the cage, heâs trying to reach to get his heart, and he canât reach it. Itâs something to wonder about. I donât know much about cult stuff, but the little bit that my son shared with me. I told him that weâre going to the police department and theyâre going to show you a book with some pictures in it, and he said Iâm not going to show the picture. I told him that they would be looking for expressions that would let them know thatâs the person. When I said that, my son got up, punched the kitchen wall, and made a hole it in. He said âI like him and I like what he doesâ. Thatâs when I decided he needed a check-up and I called DCF. I took him to the hospital and, when the people came out and told me what he said, I said that I canât handle this anymore, call DCF and tell them to come get my son. When I went home, I started sweeping and cleaning up and, the next thing you know, I saw the police car pull up in front of my house. I told them the truth, this is my life, and I canât handle it anymore. They knocked on the door, and I told them that it was open and to come on in. There was a man and a lady. They said, âumm âŠâ I said âyeah, I know my son, you donât know what Iâm going through and I canât handle this anymore on my own; I just canât do it anymore, call DCF and thatâs what you need to doâI need help for my son.â Both of them just stood there and didnât say anything. I let them know what I was going through and no one wanted to help me. I said that I was helping my child. They said, âOkay, Miss,â and they just got in their car and left.
âThe police did call DCF and DCF called me and they were so proud of me. They couldnât believe I called DCF. They said âI canât believe you called usâ. They said that usually when things like this happen, a neighbor calls and the parent never calls. She said âbut you called usâ, and I said âyes, I want to help my son, and Iâm on crack, I canât go to sleep at night because they get in here. I locked the doors, but they still get in.â Then I later found out they werenât even locking the door.
âMy landlordâs mother came over one day after that happened. She sat on the floor on the carpet (she used to live thereâit was her familyâs house) and asked me if my son was eleven years old, and I said yes. She said, Iâll tell you what move from this house, take your children and move. When we moved there, the boys found a Ouija board in the basement, and I told the boys to get that thing out of here. They took it and threw it in the dumpster down the street and do you know the next day, that thing was right back. I said, âoh God, get that thing out of hereâ. I told Cheryl that my boys found a Ouija board in the basement, they threw it out in the dumpster, and it came back. She looked at me and smiled. I asked her who used to play with Ouija boards and she said âwe did when we were kids; we used to do rituals and stuff. I said, âgirl, you did rituals and was calling dead peopleâ and she said that they were just playing. I told her that was not a game, she never told me that they called people back, and I asked her if they ever sent anyone back. She said no and I told her that those spirits are still here. It was weird, and then I had to because they were doing all these things. I would pray all the time and I had my little meditations. I told her that she needed to send those people back. I didnât want anything to do with that stuff because Iâm not into that.
âAll these things kept happening was happening and happening, and getting worse. I would pray, because I knew that they were there, but there was one that was black. It was so tall, you couldnât see the head. It was like a ⊠I donât know, but I could picture it now. I told Cheryl because she was fixing up the second floor and she was going to move into the house. I told her that she called those spirits here and never sent them back. I told her that there was one that just wouldnât go, that it was mad, and that it must want to see her. When I said that to her, she stood straight like a soldier and said, âwell, Iâm readyâIâm a soldierâ. I looked at her and thought to myself âGod, they really didâ and eventually I got out of the house. That stuff is not just on TV. When I see things on TV, they got that story from somewhere; it only comes on Scifi, but it happened.
âWhen I was in Niantic and talked to that lady and, especially after Cheryl âs mother came over and told me that. As a matter of act, we stayed there for three years and people on Edgewood Avenue would say that no one ever stayed there over a year and that we were the longest people who stayed there. No one had ever stayed there over a year because something would always happen to their family, but it was an experience. It may sound crazy or whatever, but hay. Thatâs because people donât talk about that stuff. I did share it with my clinician and I would talk about it because I didnât care, I wanted to talk that stuff out of me. You have to let people know and once I told it, they put that label on me. Me and my children we really, really experienced it.
âWhen I did go to the program and James came back, Joselyn said that Donlan and Musadi were laughing one night and that somebody had called her house and said that they had got the wrong son, who they wanted to get was James, and they were laughing and said that they were going to get him. They said that they got the wrong son, James is the one that they need to get. Joselyn was laughing and I told her that that was nothing funny.
âThings would happen to my brother here in New Haven, and I would warn James because James was an outgoing person. He would be trusting people and look what they had done to him here in New Haven, by people he thought were family. He found those people, or they found him, and they ended up setting him up, and he went to Rikers Island for five years. They were looking for us, the first people that stayed here, when Clive lived in Manhattan. On the way going back to Manhattan, at Union Station, the police came up to him and they wanted to see his ID. They looked at the ID and they said it was the right last name, but the wrong first name. Back then, Levander, he sold, I donât know what he was selling, maybe heroin, I donât know I was a kid, I didnât know anything about it. I think I was in grammar school when that happened.
âWhen we moved up here, James must have been nine, a man came up to me and asked if James was Levanderâs son, Cliveâs brother. Clive always said that James looked like Levander when he was a little boy. The man said that he always thought that was Levanderâs son and I told him that that was my son. I didnât even want to go there. Iâm glad that James is no longer in New Haven; I really am. James is his own person. Iâm glad he finally got a job. He would come to my house and I would tell him not to leave anything in my house, no money, nothing. Because if they come in here looking for something and they find it, itâs mine, itâs in my apartment, so donât bring anything in here. I told him that Iâm in recovery now and I donât want any of that stuff in my house. I didnât want him to smoke weed or anything. They tried, they really tried. He couldnât get a job here.
âJames finally moved. He had gone to Stone Academy and I think he almost had a 4-point something, a high score, but he couldnât get a job here. He wanted to get a job at Yale, but he couldnât get a job here. He was one of the top students at Stone Academy. He was always a top student, even when he was little. He was a smart, smart kid. He did get a job, and I had told him that he was getting older and needed to pay Federal taxes. (Look at me, I worked for The State and I canât even get my stuff.) I told him that he had to get stuff.
âMusadi had a fantastic job with disabled children. I think he worked at a group home and something Musadi did, I never forgot things, but they didnât fire him, something he was doing at a group home. Then he messed up â he was getting somebodyâs Social Security check. The people asked Musadi to put it in his bank account. Musadi was making $30.00 an hour; he was doing really, really good and had been working for them for years. He put the check in his account and they busted him. Musadi lost that job and has no job now. Heâs a diabetic and doesnât take care of himself. We talked one Thanksgiving about his father, who is a diabetic; his grandmother, my mother, and my father are all diabetic as well. It runs really, really thick on both sides.
âMusadi has no job anymore and they came and impounded his truck, and now all he has is Miss Keyes. Miss Keyes never let me see him and told me not to come around or call him. Now, a few years ago, once I got in here, she would call me and say that he has to do something because she is old now. She stopped me from doing things with my son. She wanted him to stay with Jocelyn, but Jocelyn wouldnât do it. I donât know whatâs going to happen to my son. I got to look out for me because I know his capabilities. It ainât fear because I know Center has me. Iâm guaranteed Center has me now, but still if I was to really, really get involved, Center doesnât want me to go there, just keep loving him unconditionally. That was his choice that he made; I believe he knows what heâs got to do. I donât know what his plan is. Iâm not concerned because Iâm in a different space in life now.â
Who is Miss Keyes?
âMiss Keyes is a foster parent and she lives on Bassett Street.â
Heâs still with the foster parents?
âHeâs still there. A lot of kids were there and they moved on, but Musadi hasnât. When I was talking to him a couple of Novembers ago, when we were at my sisterâs for Thanksgiving, I told him that there are people he can talk to and he has to tell somebody, not just me because Iâm not in the picture anymore, Iâm not. I told him that he needs to tell someone what he told me. The day he told me he said that he was telling me because Iâm his mother and he wasnât telling anybody else. I let him know that there are people out there that can help him. The way things are ⊠Look at the people in here. I pray he never comes here, but they donât want him here. Itâs just sad. When I was on the other side I prayed that he would never come through here. Itâs a smoking cigarette; thereâs nothing, no encouragement or anything. Itâs just eat, eat, eat, you blow up. You eat to get full; itâs not about nourishment. People smoke, smoke, smoke cigarettes. People canât even stand upâthey push them out in their wheelchairs, they come back to their room, and hook them up to their oxygen tanks. I donât want my son to come here. Heâs going to end up going somewhere.â
Do you think heâs afraid to talk about what has happened to him, that he might be labeled or treated differently, or feel some pain?
âI think heâs ashamed because he knew the longest. I believe thatâs what it is, despite what others may think. Even when I started taking him to Clifford Beers, eventually he didnât want to go anymore. He said that the doctors were stupid and he didnât tell them anything. I said that he told them what they wanted to hear, that he didnât tell them what really happened. Heâs just closed up. I pray that he does come out somewhere, but Iâm not going to argue about anything, âwell you said this and you said that, and then you tried to brainwash meâ. Itâs painful to know, that was my Bear; his middle name is Bear.
âMe and James were close too, but James always took care of everyone, he was the big brother. I always felt that someone was going to hurt Musadi. Until this day, James will say âyou gave Musadi all the timeâ. James is angry, very angry. Musadi would lie on James all the time, and I would believe Musadi and James would get punished. Those things did happen, but that was then and this is now. I donât hate nobodyâthose are my babies; I didnât have to have them, but I did. There was fear, but I did, and Iâve come a long way with this.
âThere was a time when I was really, really angry. People were doing all kinds of things to me, and they would let them. I remember one day I went to Walgreenâs. I used to use the vinegar and water douche, and they were on sale, Summerâs Eve, I think. I got a few of them and, when I came home, I put them in my drawer. A couple of days later, I was going to use one and I took it out of the package and it was open. Instead of it being like this here, it was backwards. It was like someone had taken it out, heated it, stuck it on, and stuck it on wrong. I asked Musadi about it. He came in the room, looked at me, and said that John was here and he had been smelling that stuff all the time and John put it in him. I said that there was something in it and asked him what it was and he said that they put something else in it. If I hadnât noticed that it had been opened, I would have used it and didnât even know what they had put in it. I would get really pissed with him and would spank him. I was so pissed because he was allowing people to do things. Some of things I just canât say, but I know they did because I know how I felt when I woke up. Iâm fortunate to be hereâthis was no joke.â
Whatâs been the catalyst of your recovery and healing? It sounds like youâve experienced a lot of trauma.
âStep work, and I got a sponsor who doesnât judge me or anything I say. Even if she doesnât believe what I say, she doesnât say so. I had to cleanse myself. Itâs going on twelve years that Iâve had her. It would have been thirteen years, but I relapsed when I was clean for a year and two months. Through step work because I canât say church. With step work and my higher power, Jesus Christ. I donât look at that in a religious way. I look at it in a spiritual way, my spirituality. The power greater than myself is his holy spirit. Spirituality, not religion, because dealing with it religiously, it would take you to a whole different place. You canât wonder about why this happened; it happened for a reason. For me, it was to learn something.
âMy friend, Johnny, the one I told you about â I could just accept him. Remember, I told you about the guy that had killed him? I wanted to help this kid because I always knew he was going to be feminine from when he was a little boy. Every time I went to Josephineâs house, he always took to me, bouncy, bouncy. As he grew older, Iâm the one he would come to and share stuff with. I prepared him and opened his eyes; it is what it is. I didnât get the understanding that inside you is a female â God put the wrong person in you. I wasnât there yet because I always thought that God didnât make mistakes. I always felt that somewhere down the line, someone did something when he was a little infant; you donât know. All he knew was that he was looking for that feeling somewhere. Someone had given him that feeling, thatâs the way I look at it. Someone did something to him as an infant, when he was a little tiny baby, on the bed because thatâs how people do it; theyâll do it to an infant with a diaper on. They will do that because no one can tell nothing, but I never told him like that. I would school him and let him know not to let people take advantage because he didnât know. He was the cutest little thing, he should have been a girl. He just loved him some bouncy.
âPeople would say. âWow, you and Johnny are always together, umm ⊠if anybody can change Johnny, you can.â I would just laugh at them. People would be thinking that me and Johnny were doing something. Me and Johnny (he was younger than me) thought it was so silly because I already knew what he wanted. When he was a teenager, he was doing the same thing as me and he had to slow down. Heâs still so special to me. A person is going to do want they want to do or what they think makes them happy. I accept it with him, even little El, even with them. I guess because it wasnât my child, I donât know. I just want to pay attention to you to let you know. You got to be yourself. I look at how times is now, we all have feminine and masculine; we all do. Some people say âIâm just masculineâ; no, we all have two. We really do; itâs just which one overpowers the other one. I have a recovery CD that explains that we all have a feminine side and a masculine side, and itâs all good. I used to listen to it so much and it helped me a lot.
âI canât be around my son, even though Iâve grown and expanded so much, I know what he went through. I know the goal of theirs, I donât know, yes I do know ⊠heâs still part of something.
Even his little girlâs mother, she doesnât want Musadi around their daughter without Jocelyn or Annetta. I believe something happened because she doesnât trust Musadi with his own daughter. As a matter of fact, he did something to Annetta when she was little when we lived on Commerce Street. I would be the one to give Annetta a bath all the time because Jocelyn would never do it. One night when I was giving her a bath, I was washing her, washing her really, really good and she did something she never did before. I washed between her legs and she said âoh grandma, oh grandma, let me do you, let me do you.â I was sitting on the floor, by the bathtub, and that just blew my mind, âlet me do you, let me do you.â I looked at her and asked her who was playing games with her. She was so excitedâit was like âwow ⊠it just hit me when she said âlet me do you grandma, let me do youâ. I kept washing her, and she told me that Musadi would play tickling games with her. I told the people at the 4 Cs because Jocelyn wasnât paying attention. They ended up telling DCF, and Musadi wasnât supposed to be around Annetta.
âWhenever he would come and visit Jocelyn, and I came there on that weekendâhe was sleeping with Annetta, and that never left me what he did. So I slept in that little bed too; we were all in there together. I donât know ... Iâm kind of concerned about my great grandchildren because Jocelyn doesnât pay attention to this stuff or she lets things happen. I donât know; I donât know what Jocelynâs choice is either. Kids will play, but ⊠if it is, it is, but I think about my greats because if Musadi was to come there, Jocelyn would leave him there with them, and go and do whatever she has to do, and theyâre little. Thatâs another reason why I donât get involved. I know what he did to Annetta and I know what he was going to do to me. I donât know what kind of relationship Jocelyn and Musadi have, I donât know, but I know incest is in the family.
âThereâs incest in the family and my grandfather was an incest. My motherâs mother told me about it. He always had sex with all of his kids. He had a child by one of his daughters. Moom was the baby, she went with Diddy, and she had her first child at age thirteen because she didnât want her father doing to her what he was doing to the boys and the girls. Moom was always around Diddyâs family. She would be with Diddy behind the field and stuff, and they would stay together because she didnât want her father to do that to her. The boy that my grandfather had with one of his daughtersâthe slave owner was pissed off about something with David and he was the one who told David that his grandfather was his father. He told him that his grandfather raped his mother and that hurt David really bad. David was so angry with Grandpa Jessie. One night, they sat down and had dinner together. David even let Grandpa Jessie smoke his last cigarette after dinner. He was sitting by the window, behind him, he waited until Grandpa Jessie finished smoking the cigarette, and then went outside and blew his head off. Itâs in the family. They donât talk about stuff like that, but Iâm alert to it. Iâm grateful that I know these things, but everybody else runs from it, but you need to know. You canât shove it under the rug. It is what it is.â
It sounds like the pattern of abuse and trauma is continually passed on from generation to generation if itâs not healed or talked about.
âThey donât talk about it and they pretend it doesnât happen. Nobody can say anything anymore, so the next generation doesnât know. Children to children, they wonât know where it came from. Iâm so glad that my Grandma Charlotte told me things. Iâm just glad and I told my son, James, and Jocelyn so much. Jocelyn uses it as a weapon, but thatâs okay, thatâs okay. I thought she was going to be my best friend, but it ainât like that. I never knew that she envied me as much as she does. I now understand that itâs attention, especially when Iâm around. As a matter of fact, she told me that when Iâm around, I get everyoneâs attention. We are who we are.
âMy son, James, has anger issues. One thing I realize is that children fail to understand that their parents went through a whole lot of stuff too. Parents had trauma and we pretend that we are so strong for our kids, that we can conquer anything. I was the toughest mama. Everybody wanted me to be their mother. I think thatâs the envy of Jocelyn and James because all the kids would come talk to me about anything. They envy that I was nice to them, especially when things were happening and disappearing. James would say âyeah, you were nice to so and so and so and so, where they at now when you need stuffâ, and I would look at him and it would hurt. All those kids are down South and if they were here, they would be there for me. Iâve met Center nowâif thereâs something I really need, he really does provide. Heâll guide someone to me because everyone that comes up, is sent from Him.â
What have you learned through these experiences with Musadi, getting clean, and arriving at where you are now in your life?
âEverything happens for a reason. Itâs to strengthen you, to accept others for who they are even though you have been taught itâs supposed to be so and soâs way. There is no supposed to be no certain way but the way it is. You canât plan anybodyâs life. You donât know anybodyâs emotions. You donât know other peopleâs desires, except for what they tell you, but it may not be true. I have learned people are who theyâre supposed to be, theyâre in their own process, if theyâre not running from themselves, but itâs up to them. We canât make anybody. We donât even make ourselves. We might have intentions, but the thing about that is, nobody is that way, but being in the presence of an individual and know that if it could only be another way, but it canât be another way the way you think itâs supposed to be, to please you. Thatâs what Iâve learned. I learned that this life, my childrenâs lives, anybodyâs lifeâitâs what pleases them when theyâre ready. When theyâre readyâwhat will be revealed. You can see something and you donât want it to be that way, and sit and wait for it to change to something else, but it isnât supposed to change to something else. All I can sayâwith Musadi and all of my children, I planted the seed in spirituality and the Word.
âMy son, James, has faith in Jesus, but as far as what the Bible says, James ainât having it. My son, James, is something. Heâs like an old soul. He feels like the Bible, how man switched the purpose of the Bible, to control people and theyâre slaves. Thatâs where my son, James, is. James feels like how man has changed so much because of the books theyâve taken out. He doesnât believe every word in the Bible. Itâs a control thing and a negative fear thing, not a positive fear. I always felt that he was going towards ⊠Allah is God, Buddha is God, heâs got different names.
âJocelyn just isnât into it. Sheâs not there. One day I asked her why she doesnât go to church with me, and she said that she didnât like the church that I go to because if she went to the church that I go to, people would see who she really is. I looked at my daughter and said to myself âGod, who is she?â It reminded me of something my mother had told me once. My mother had told me that I named her the wrong name after we had moved down South. She asked me why I was calling her Jocelyn, and said that she was a jackal and I should have named her Jacqueline. I told her that her name is Jocelyn and she said âI donât know who you think she isâ.
âOne night I was watching Animal Kingdom and they were showing jackals and hyenas, and I thought about when my mother told me that I should have named Jocelyn Jacqueline. They were talking about jackals and hyenas. I said âwowâ and now I see it as an adult. I wanted Jocelyn to be the way I saw her, but thatâs not it. Her father was an atheist and she is an atheist, but she likes to portray that she really isnât, but she is. He was an atheist and so was his sister; they both were atheists. They didnât believe in God and we had nothing in common. With Jocelyn, I tried to make her who I wanted her to be.â
How did that work out?
âNot good at all, but my relationship with her is fine now, but when she sees me, itâs her time. I was downtown recently and saw her coming down the street. I called out to her and when she saw me, she ran the other way. Sheâs always been like that. I am who I am; Iâm spiritual. Iâve always been that way, even when they were kids. In my house, I played a spiritual station; I love to dance. When I hear songs and dance, all those love songs, the only person I think about is Jesus. The love is in you; you donât have to look for it. You are love, and just be you and expand the love. Me and my children â theyâre on their page.â
What have you learned about yourself?
âWhat have I learned about myself? Iâm a compassionate person. I care about others and sometimes I think I care about others a little too much and put myself on the back burner. I always put others in front of me. I always did ⊠I always did. I would do without because if it werenât for me itâs not going to happen. All that I have learned? I say within the last three years, Iâve learned more than I have in a lifetime. I really have. There were so many secrets, secrets, secrets. When I was a kid, I was told âyou canât tell anybodyâ. Thatâs a tough thing to say to a child, âyou canât tell nobodyâ. Then, all youâre going to do is think about it ⊠youâre going to think about it and itâs going to play over and over in your head. I guess thatâs why Iâm so expressive now.â
Secrets can make us very sick.
âYes. For real. Then you find out the secret was exaggerated. My grandmother would say to me all the time, âitâs a good thing you werenât born when I was bornâ and I would ask my grandmother why she always said that and she said âbecause they would have lynched you.â I think about that every now and then and I think about other things that people have said to me now as Iâm an adult. I remember when I had vocabulary words and I think I was in the second grade, yep Mr. Haynesâ class, and one of the words was lynch. I was the first one to raise my hand up when he said lynch. I thought my grandma meant they would beat me, so I said it meant to beat you, and someone else raised their hand, and said that it meant hanging. I was in shock. It shocked me. Oh, that day troubled me because I couldnât believe my grandmother would say that ⊠they would hang me.
âOne day when I was in high school and something happened. My Uncle John, my fatherâs brother, had come to stay with us. He was always so cold to me all the time, but I loved him because he would always make ice cream when we went to Brooklyn. Thatâs the only thing I loved him âŠhim making ice cream. One day after Uncle Calvin had passed, he called me a witch and said that I wished Calvin dead. I looked at him and told him that I did not. Then I remembered years ago, Nana was in her garden and I was sitting on the porch, watching her in the garden. She came back and took her little boots off and I said âgosh Nana, I hope Uncle Calvin dies before you doâ because I didnât know what was going to happen to me and I always felt that I didnât have anybody. He died first and he was my tie. If it wasnât for him, I would have still been in New York all those years because Nana didnât want me after I got pregnant. Uncle Calvin was the one that wanted me to come back with my little girl, but he went first, and I felt so guilty. Thatâs when I decided to go to my real Momma. She got answers for me and Iâm so glad I did.Â
âI thank God for my Nanaâshe told me a lot. She didnât really tell me, but she was on the phone all the time, talking about stuff, and Iâm glad I was there because, even though I was a little kid and they think children donât have ears, Iâm glad I was there to hear. I needed to hear stuff from my mother, for real, because there were things my mother knew and it removed the anger. It was all good. It was all to make me whole. Iâm not whole, but Iâm on the way.â
If you could give your younger self, when you were a little girl, some advice coming from the woman you are today, what would you say to her?
âStop being so hardheaded because you donât know it all. I used to like to read. I was always reading something all the time. Yep, stop being so hardheaded because you sure donât know it all.â
Do you have a favorite quote that youâd like to share? Anything that someone has said to you or something that youâve read, even a verse from the Bible?
âNothing formed against me shall prosper.â
What does that mean to you?
âAnything negative wonât interfere with my purpose. Whatever is supposed to be is going to be, if itâs meant for me. I donât have to chase it. I donât have to make it happen because life just happens. Oh, I have another on: It is what it is.â
What does that mean?
âSame thing ⊠life is going to be. You have to go with the flow. You have to find a way, acceptance, not to be content, but acceptance.â
Do you think that itâs possible that by sharing your stories and experiences, in a way that is honest, could potentially bring someone else some hope and inspiration, in whatever theyâre going through, theyâre not alone in whatever theyâre going through?
âOh, most definitely. The things I have sharedâIâm not the only one that went through this. I know thereâs many people that have gone through similar situations and they think âoh, it happened to meâ, or the whole if and I should have. That doesnât get it âŠifs and should haves. Like the saying goes, if I coulda, woulda, shoulda, what would I do? Go with the flow. You have to move on ⊠You have to move on. I could wish that something didnât happen, but it was already on my path from when I was in my motherâs home. Can I handle it? I got to in order to be who I was made to be. Sure, thereâs going to be pain, but thereâs no âwhy me?â, why not me? It is a rough road and thereâs going to be a rougher road, challenges. Thatâs what life is; itâs a challenge ⊠every day. I look forward to challenges, especially what I just went through. That was a challenge and I saw my growth through that. My growth of faith and believing that Center has me and my soul has all the answers. Whatever you want to know, all you gotta do is listen within. All of the answers are inside of us. You donâ have to run around, asking this one and this one. People may have suggestions, but they may not be the suggestions for you. Those are their suggestions, but when you just get quiet and listen, not to your head, because thatâs the wrong place to listen. Listen to breath. Breath has some strong words, some strong, solid, low words. Once you get that understandingâlife fulfillment ⊠thereâs no end. It may not be what you expect, itâs just what it is. I am.â
How has it felt to share these feelings and experiences with me today?
âIt felt good. It felt freeing and just to know that Iâm not the only one. In the beginning, when we first started, I thought to myself, oh my God, I hope this doesnât hurt anyoneâs feelings; thatâs what I thought at first. It happened and itâs true. Itâs not true just in my sight, I can look at it now. I didnât exaggerate it. I donât care who judges me because I lived these things, and thereâs going to be more, but Iâm ready because Iâm not doing it by myself. Iâm not who you see. I am not these clothes. Wow âŠif a person could just see me now. Theyâd have to put their shades on. Yep, I feel like it doesnât matter, because this helped me. This has helped me. It doesnât matter who believes it. I have lots of stories, but that one ⊠that was the bottomless pit where everything started falling off the sides of the pit, all the rocks and boulders, the sand and dirt, so much fell. That was it, and I thought it was all this other stuff, but thatâs where my bottom began. It began because it was so much deeper. The depths never ended and thatâs what opened the bottom of the world. Thatâs when all the anger and revenge came out, but it all worked for the good, and thatâs true. It may not feel good but, in the long run, when you look at it, itâs for the best.â
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What has been one of the most challenging things youâve experienced or are currently experiencing?
âComing out.â
Tell me about that.
âI always knew I was gay, or I always knew I was different, or something, I donât know what. I didnât really know gay was a thing for a while. And then once I learned it was a thing, I was like thatâs definitely me, but it was always something that was never talked about. So I still always felt different, which is the case for a lot of people. I donât know why I had a tough time with it. My family never said anything bad about gay people or anything like that.â
Did you grow up in a religious family?
âWe werenât really religious. My momâs family was all Catholic, and we grew up going to CCD. Iâm a confirmed Catholic, but I donât believe in anything. It was just because that what we were supposed to do. I donât think thatâs what gave me a hard time. Iâve just always been a closed-off person, so I felt like I needed to keep that to myself.â
Was there a point when keeping it in started to have a negative impact on your life?
âYeah, high school. I definitely began to shut everyone out. Most of my family because I was embarrassed or I didnât want to embarrass them, even though I knew they wouldnât be. I think I was more embarrassed. Probably still am. Thatâs why I blame everybody else.â
What do you mean by blame everybody else?
âFor whenever I am angry or why I donât necessarily feel comfortable.â
You mean comfortable in your own skin?
âYeah. And then in high school I really shut people out. College, did a lot of drugs. Smoked a lot of weed. Probably still smoke too much weed. Anything to not have to think.â
Where does your mind go to when youâre thinking?
âJust loneliness, I guess. Yeah, just feeling alone.â
How long have you felt alone?
âAs long as I can remember, really. Itâs just always been something Iâve had to hide.â
The fact that you feel alone?
âI think the fact that I felt I had to hide that I was gay forced me to keep everything in, which now that I keep everything in makes me feel alone, or lonely.â
Is there a fear attached to letting it out? What would happen if you let it out?
âI donât know. I have a fear of people leaving me. That probably makes little sense. If I do share something, then maybe itâll force someone to not want to be in my life.â
Has that been something youâve experience at some point in your life, where youâve shared something personal or vulnerable and the person has left?
âI definitely had people just walk for what seems to be no reason. Growing up, I was always moving around, so I never really had a lot of friends until I met the friends I have now, and theyâve been my friends ever since. I just have a fear of people leaving, I donât know why.â
Itâs ironic, because it seems like your fear of people leaving is the very thing that is isolating you and making you feel lonely.
âYeah, definitely keeps me from making too many new friends, because my mind says whatâs the point? Itâs just going to end eventually.â
You mentioned you moved around a lot, was that in your childhood?
âYeah. We moved nine times before I was in first grade, because of my dadâs job. Heâs retired now, but he worked for a big corporation. They would buy a smaller company and he would go in, basically rip it apart, and then we would move onto the next place.â
It must have been difficult to start at so many new schools and try to make friends.
âDefinitely making friends, because itâs already not easy. Especially for a kidâor maybe itâs easier for a kid.â
What was high school like for you?
âIt was pretty normal. I tried my best to seem straight. Trying to talk differently, dress how I thought you were supposed to dress. How a straight person was supposed to dress. Pretend to like girls and talk about girls. Stuff I never really cared about. I just forced myself to be fake, and I think thatâs why I have no interest in it now.â
When did you recognize that you were attracted to guys?
âI want to say probably middle school, late middle school. When people started talking about crushes or actually dating, middle school dating, whatever that is. I thought guys would just pick a girl and thatâs who their crush was.â
Did you feel pressure from your parents to have a girlfriend and to be involved with someone?
âNo, never really. I mean, theyâve always asked, âAre you dating anybody?â that type of thing. But never why arenât you dating anybody or stuff like that. No, they never really forced any opinions on me, which is why it baffles me that I just have such a hard time with it. I didnât come from a house where that should have been the case.â
Sounds like you must have had some expectation of yourself that you felt like werenât meeting.
âI guess I set higher standards, higher bars for myself.â
Did you think you could be straight if you wanted to, or if you tried hard enough?
âYeah, I thought I could fake it. I feel that itâs that thought that drove me more into depression and separating myself from everybody.â
Do you remember what that depression felt like?
âMiserable. You donât want to talk to anybody, you donât want to move, like get up or leave. It was just âIâm going to be at home and Iâm going to smoke this weed and Iâm just going to sit here and watch TV because thatâs whatâs comfortable right now.â Then that just became all the time.â
Did your parents show any concern that you were kind of slipping into the shadows?
âYeah, they did, and then whenever someone asked me if I needed help, I tend to just push them away, and go farther into my corner, which I am working on. They definitely noticed and even that was painful for me, because I knew they were wanting to help, but I wouldnât let them or I didnât want them to. My mom still, itâs kind of painful to see her, because she knows I am still depressed and she doesnât know how to help. It kills me that I make her feel that way.â
So even though youâre trying to hide something she can see it.
âYeah, and even now that I am not even hiding anything, she still knows whenever I am depressed, and thatâs not what I am trying to hide.â
How are you coping with it these days? Any differently?
âI am definitely better with the whole gay thing. Just time helped. I would say I am still depressed, but not like how I was in the past. Just time and learning how to be comfortable with myself, or trying to learn. Every day helps a little bit.â
So youâre depressed, youâre isolating, youâre kind of comforting yourself in the privacy of your bedroom, numbing yourself with TV, in high school smoking pot, parents are concerned youâre not really letting them get involved. You go on to college. What does that look like?
âPretty much a continuation of what that was in high school. I do more drugs, probably harder drugs than just weed. Coke. Molly. Acid. Shrooms. Anything to get my mind off of whatever. Ativan. Xanax. Stuff like that. When I felt like I needed something to be around people and have fun, or for people to see me as fun, because I am a pretty quiet person. I felt like people saw me as boring, so I needed that extra whatever. And then when I was on that stuff, I would talk to anybody and have a great time, but then the next day I would be in my room again.â
That must have been quite a roller coaster.
Yeah, I guess. At the same time, I was like every gay guy goes through this, so I just felt like an idiot for being so down about it, and thatâs what got me more depressed. Thereâs so many other people that go through it too, why would I feel sorry for myself on that?â
So on top of being depressed, youâre shaming yourself and judging yourself for feeling the way you did? Did that help?
âNo, not at all.â
Were you able to get through college?
âI did, and I even graduated #1 within my college/school.â
Howâd you get through it?
âJust alone, for the most part.
Were the any moments where you felt like giving up? Were you able to let someone in?
âThought about giving up, but I felt like at the same time, while I would have wanted to, I just always went back to my mom. I could never do that to my mom, so I guess thatâs what kept me.â
Sounds like you have a connection with your mother.
âWell, growing up with my dadâs work he traveled a lot. He was a great father when he was around and provided everything. We had everything in the world, but for the most part it was me, my sister, and my mom.
So at what point did you reveal that you were gay or felt you were gay?
âI was a senior in college when I told my parents. I was home. We had just had dinner and I just felt like I had to say it right then. When I was saying it I cried and then they cried. Then they were like yeah we had an idea and all that, and it was fine obviously. I was pissed at myself afterwards for not coming out sooner. I was just pissed at myself for that.â
Sounds like youâre pretty hard on yourself.
âYeah, definitely.â
How did it feel to let that out and to cry and have to your parents cry?
âIt was huge.â
Must have felt like quite a release.
âDefinitely. And even building up to that, I came out to my sister beforehand, before them, about a year before. She had a gay roommate. I knew sheâd be fine with it. So that was kind of like my first sense of feeling comfortable with it was when I came out to her.â
Had you had experiences with men leading up to that?
âJust like Grindr hookups or something like that. No real dating or stuff like that.â
Sounds like a lot of physical transactions.
âMostly.â
Did you find any sort of emotional connection with anyone at any point?
âAt one point, with one person and then at the time I wasnât out, so I pulled away before it went too far.â
How about friends-wise? Did you have any friends that you could be emotionally vulnerable with?
âIâm sure that I could have, but I wasnât. Itâs just not ever who I was. I mean the type to open up, then if I did that secret, if it is a secret thatâs out there and then if they were to disappear then who knows. Itâs that type of thing too, I guess.â
So youâre a senior in college, you have already come out to your sister a year prior, youâve had some experience with men, you had a history of using drugs and alcohol to make yourself feel more comfortable to not get trapped in your thoughts and to feel accepted. What happens next?
âI donât know. Trying to figure it out. I just need to be more open to talking to people. I think thatâll help me. Trying to say yes to more experiences. Leave my apartment every now and then.â
Is that your safe place?
âYeah, definitely.â
How did you make the friends that you have today?
âMost of them have been my friends for 20 years. I donât really know. Just over time theyâve come into my life and the good ones have stayed.â
Do you feel like they see you and accept you for who you are? Can you tell them if you feel like youâre drowning, or if there is something weighing on your heart?
âYeah. I could definitely tell them that, not sure I do but they are that type of people.â
So at this point if your life, now, how are you coping with still feeling depressed and uncomfortable in your own skin sometimes?
âWell there are still days when I feel like when I feel like I need a . . . I donât do hard drugs anymore, but I still smoke and kind of curl up in my room and do nothing. Separate myself but in a healthier way. I do try to see a therapist as much as I can, although itâs usually just a staring contest.â
Really?
âI need someone to ask me questions. I canât just talk.â
Did you choose to see a therapist, or was that something that was encouraged?
âIt was encouraged, but itâs a choice now.â
Who encouraged it?
âMy parents, mostly. Doctors. I think trying not to separate myself is the biggest thing going forward: like stay in the group, go out on Friday, talk to people. I guess even if it is small talk.â
Sometimes it can be helpful when it comes to talking to new people to try engaging yourself in things you find interesting so that youâre around people that you, hopefully, have a shared interest withâsomething in commonâand that can often create some equanimity. Even the feelings of loneliness are a commonality that every human being has: experiencing loneliness, that kind of hot aching loneliness. You never know when looking at our social media feeds.
âI know, it doesnât help anything. Yeah, Iâm surprised more people donât talk about loneliness.â
Itâs a driving factor in addiction, depression. Even diseases, they say there are studies that show people who are lonely are more sick and die earlier. The same is true for people who are isolated, because you can be lonely and still be surrounded by people.
âRight.â
But also there are people who are isolated, who are not around people, who are experiencing loneliness as well on top of it. Do you feel like the age we live today, with social media and all these different ways we can connect with people in the blink of an eye from all over the world, are helpful as tools to connect with people and to create relationships?
âI think being able to connect with people is a good thing. Where I think it has a negative impact is the pictures. You only see the perfect picture, so thatâs what you think their life is and thatâs what you try and get your life to be, which never works, so itâs only cause for disappointment. It has its good and bad.â
Have you learned anything about yourself over the years through this process?
âProbably. I donât know what. I wish I could say that I was a stronger person.â
Why canât you say that?
âI donât know, I just donât think I am. I feel like I let my depression defeat me a lot or I let it win rather than working through it, and talking to somebody or going out, or occupying my time. I just get lost in a bad thought and crawl up into a ball. I think strength would be being able to move past that.â
I consider strength the willingness to lean into it and to acknowledge it. Strength isnât necessarily that we just pull up our boot straps and carry on. Strength is developed through acknowledging that there is a wound or there is pain to begin with, to be with it and to feel it.
âThat makes sense.â
It takes strength. Does it comfort you at all to know that there are others who share the same feelings and emotions, even though they may have different reasons?
âYeah, definitely. It just goes back to . . . it would be nice if people were just upfront about it.â
When I asked if I could interview you, you really didnât hesitate at all to say yes. Knowing what I know now, itâs a pretty brave thing for you to do, to communicate on this level when youâre inclined to keep things to yourself.
âI was trying to say yes to more.â
How is that changing your life, if at all?
âWell, I am just starting. I would love to see, but so far Iïżœïżœm happy when I say yes. I think itâs a good thing.â
Is there any advice you would offer to your younger self, maybe if your self today could have a sit and chat with your 10-year-old self, some words of wisdom, comfort, or support that you would might offer your 10-year-old self?
âItâs perfectly okay to be yourself. Just be who you are, because every time I do something embarrassing, Iâm embarrassed, but nobody else notices. Thatâs the biggest lesson: just stop being so embarrassed to do anything, or worried about being embarrassed, or what other people think.â
At the end of the day, the most important thing is what you think of yourself. Youâre the one who has to live with you, and thereâs no way to know what other people think of you. Itâs actually not really any of our business to know what other people think of us. And the truth is everyone is worrying that the same thing: how they are being perceived or what someone else is thinking about them. Itâs really not even about us. Is there a piece of advice or a word of wisdom, or a song lyric, or a quote from a book, or a meme, or something that someone has said to you that sticks with you that you would like to share?
âCan I think about it and go back to it? I donât know off the top of my head.â
We can come back to that. How has it felt to talk about these feelings and experiences with me today?
âNerve-racking but good. Itâs not something I ever really do. Itâs good to say it out loud. I think itâs something I should do more. Yeah, definitely nervous, even though I didnât hesitate to say yes.â
Do you think itâs possible that by sharing your feelings and experiences with me today, someone listening to this or reading this may be able to benefit and know that they are not alone, gain some hope and inspiration?
âMaybe a little bit. I didnât really offer any solutions but, I guess knowing that youâre not alone in that sense of the word.â
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What has been one of the most challenging things youâve experienced or are currently experiencing?
âI think it has been to accept myself. Accept all my flaws and who I really am. I am starting now, slowly, to re understand it, but before I had been struggling a lot and I still do sometimes.
âI guess itâs also because of my job. Because I am a dancer, itâs always a lot of putting on a mask. Trying to always be strong and perfect because we always aim for perfection. So every time I would see a flaw in myself, which is always because I am very critical, I would get upset, or depressed. So thatâs not good. So then I slowly think with age and understanding myself more I am starting to understand it and fight it and actually accept my flaws and make them be something actually better for my dancing for example or my art.â
Does that sort of mindset bleed into others areas of your life? Is that something you experienced before you got into dancing?
âUm, no. Because I have been doing dancing, like professionally, since I was 15. So I think I havenât been able to actually think about it. Throughout my life, thatâs why through the last year, like the last six years I started to acknowledge it and it started to affect my life, because I didnât know what was going on. I wasnât actually taking the time to acknowledge it or analyze it. So I think that when it hit me, it was like âOkay, slow down, you have to understand what is going on with you.â
So how do you manage that with trying to achieve perfection in dance but not have that bleed into the rest of your life?
âWell, itâs very difficult. (laughs) I actually am realizing that itâs more an internal search. Itâs actually more about myself. Sometimes I felt judged by everyone else, but actually my kind of judgment was coming from me. For example, this summer I came out to my mother. Just saying that I am gay, a huge weight was lifted. My body changed, all the blockage I had that was making me injured during my ballet career slowly disappeared. I am feeling much happier. I am feeling much stronger. I think this is one of the acceptance of my own self that I was trying to avoid, or I didnât know what I was. I have been confused as well in that area. Because I grew up Catholic in a small town in Sicily, in the south of Italy. I grew up not knowing it even existed, homosexuality and or being with a man. So for me that was really difficult to acknowledge. I am still struggling with it a little bit, but feeling better about it.â
When did you start to feel like there was something different about you that you werenât seeing represented around you?
âI think I knew since I was a child. I always had fantasies in my head, and these pictures, and I was attracted to my little mates. I was just repressing it and not accepting it. And whatâs funny is that throughout the years until I was 19 or 20, most of my memories were erased. I did not remember anything that happened in my childhood until I started to really talk with people or friends. Slowly stuff started to come out, and come to my head. I realized that I wrote a journal when I was 12, and we were in a little house of just men. I wrote in this journal all my fantasies. I totally forgot about that. I donât even remember me thinking or feeling that. I think with time I am accepting everything that happened in my past.â
What kind of messages did you receive from your upbringing with your religion, the culture of your family or your environment in terms of what was okay and what wasnât okay?
âEspecially in my little town, thereâs a lot of judgment. Now I think it is getting better because the world is getting more open. Especially Italy, because it has always been closed-minded in that sector. It was difficult because we use the word homosexual or stuff like that in a fancy way all the time, but also as a joke. In Italian for example, especially in Sicily, there is a lot of jokes about using homosexual words or homosexual adjectives, but itâs not meant in a bad way sometimes. But it still is kind of hurtful. It was really difficult for me to hear my uncles say something like that and I was right there. They were expecting me to laugh with them but I couldnât. I couldnât also say anything, Iâd be frozen because I knew my mom was next to me. I didnât want to upset her or anyone else around. Also, because I donât live in my little town anymore since I was 15, I didnât want to leave a weight for my mother to carry, because she is still in the little town. People are judgmental and so on. But actually she was fine, because once I talked to her I realized that she was totally open with it. She was totally okay, and I donât think she would have had a problem if I had said something. So the issue, all of the situation, was mine, without knowing it.â
It sounds like it was your fear. Now, you mentioned your mother several times but you didnât speak of your father. Was he not in your life at that time?
âWell, not really. He passed away about 10 years ago now. I donât even remember exactly. I think the last year was really difficult for me because he had cancer. I was not at home. I was always outside. I would see him once a year usually. My mom managed to bring him to see me different times where I was working, but I did not know that he was in a really bad situation. I was really young, so I didnât want to accept it. Of course, I was trying to stay close with him, but the last moments of his life he looked like he aged like 20 years. He was looking skinny and really sick, and I couldnât handle it. I was escaping. I was really not actually staying there and supporting him or my mother. This killed me. This was killing me actually in all these years. I managed to accept it just a few years ago. I finally spoke with my mom. In my family we never really speak openly about how we feel, and that is an issue. So I felt so guilty for about 8 years. I still do feel guilty, of course, because I feel like now I would be there more. I would be stronger to be able to assist him or not to leave my mother alone. Back then I was just escaping and I couldnât face the reality. After I managed to actually go up to my mom and say that I was sorry and I was feeling really bad, I started to feel better. It is something that I cannot take back, unfortunately.â
What was your relationship like with your father while he was healthy and you were young?
âWe were actually very close when I was younger. Then when I left to Italy, at the beginning it was okay, but then I think maybe I did start to realize I was gay. So I could feel like he was distancing himself. But this was actually the last year of his life. I canât really combine the two things. I did know he loved me very much, because it is thanks to him that I am who I am, that I became a dancer and I could do everything that I am doing now. I am just upset because I never managed to tell him anything. I never managed to really say who I really am. So I donât know if he would have really accepted me or not. That is really difficult.â
If you had the opportunity to say something to him now about who you are, what would you say?
âI donât know. Itâs difficult. Already with my mother it was more of an explosion. I could not hold it anymore. I was just feeling uncomfortable. I just had to tell her everything that was going on in my life. So once I told her, âMom, I think Iâm gay.â I had to start to tell her everything. âIâm living with my ex-boyfriend in the same apartment.â Stuff that I couldnât share with her before. I think that is what I would want my father to know as well. It would be more difficult because the male persona in Sicily is much more closed-minded than the woman. The men are much more into judgment. I guess it would have been more difficult for me to open up. I donât know what I would say if he was in front of me right now. I guess I would just scream it. I would just burst it. (Laughing)â
You mentioned you wouldnât be a dancer, or in the career of dance, had it not been for you father. What inspired you to become a dancer?
âActually it is a funny story. I was in karate and taekwondo. My sister was dancing, and her school came to do a class in the same gym where I was doing my taekwondo. My father said, âWait for your sister.â So I just sat and watched, and then the teacher called me up. It was like childrenâs dances, and like a little bit of salsa, and macarena. And I loved it. So I came back home and said to my dad that I want to dance. Without any question my father said, âOkay, fine, just go to the dance school tomorrow.â So I started to do that. Thanks to him, he started to ask around what I would need to do to become a famous dancer without me even knowing He managed to get me an audition for a very famous school in Italy, where luckily I got accepted. They manage to actually sustain me outside of Milan. From the age of 15 to 20 I was living in Milan thanks to them. They were supporting my whole life. Otherwise I wouldnât have been able to go anywhere, if I didnât do these five years in this very good school. So I owe it to him completely, and my mother of course.â
It sounds like even though you grew up in a small area or small community with a lot of religious influences and a lot of male judgment, your parents were very supportive of you as you evolved and showed an interest in things that made you come alive. I think that the fact that they supported you and your dance is probably a good indication that if your father was still around, he would be very much involved and supportive of your life. Itâs sort of that male stigma of being tough, closed-minded and unemotional. Growing up in that area, finding your calling with dance and then coming to terms with your sexuality, where did you find yourself once you left home? You were in school, what was that experience like with dancing?
âI think that in the beginning for me it was liberating. I felt that I was on my own. I felt that I was free and could actually make my own choices. I guess it was maybe overwhelming at first. I was actually breathing again. I think I was feeling like I wasnât being myself in my little town. Once I went to go live alone, I started to be more open with myself. But it did take time, years.â
Did you meet any resistance from your siblings or friends in terms of their having an adverse response to you kind of owning your sexuality or also pursuing a career in dance? Both go against the mainstream for a white male to align himself with homosexuality or ballet.
âThatâs actually funny, because in Sicily they are very open-minded. All my family has supported the fact that Iâm a ballet dancer. All my uncles, grandparents, no one ever rejected anything. But my lifestyle, my haircut and everything, then yeah. I already have heard complaints from my uncles and my father, for example, when he came into my first apartment in Germany. I had my own apartment, so I was very excited so I hung a poster of Michael Jordanâs back in my bedroom. (laughs) The first thing that my father said when he came in was, âTake down this black shit.â (laughing) And that was the first time that I stood up for my sexuality. I said, âNo, I fucking like that.â But then we forgot about it. I guess that was the only time there was a main confrontation. But right now I feel like I should be able to confront with someone. I would be more comfortable to talk with my familyâmy mother, my sister and my brother. I kind of made a hint to my brother, and I think he understood. I think he knows. For me they are the most important people. So if one of my uncles doesnât accept it, I would just say, âFuck you.â But I guess it would hurt, because I care also for my uncles.â
How do you deal with this in relation to your religious beliefs? With you being Catholic, itâs not embraced really. A lot of people will use the bible as a weapon to put people down, call them sinners, or send them into further shame and silence. Have you had any sort of reckoning with that?
âWell, yes. Last week I was talking with my grandmother. She asked me, âWhere are you living now?â I told her, âIn Belgium, and I got a new house.â She said, âIs it a nice neighborhood?â and I said, âYeah, yeah itâs in the center, there are three churches. Itâs really nice.â She said, âOh, so you can go to church,â and I said, âNo, I donât.â Then she asked, âWhy donât you go to church?â and I told her, âI donât practice Catholicism.â The only reality she has is you go to church every Sunday. You go to church on Christmas and get married and have children. I was surprised because she was like confused, kind of like âno, this is not possible, this is not the reality.â Then she was taking her time and said, âWait. Thatâs strange, I have to see there is another possibility,â I think I left her with thinking about something else. But apart from that, I never go to church. Just when I was baptizing my niece, the priest asked me to confess. I refused. There I got judgment. He got really angry with me. He was like, âOh well, then you are not going to get communion, you know. You are going to have to confess if you are going to baptize your niece.â I said, âI donât believe in the church and I donât want to confess.â So that was like the main confrontation, and my mother was just a bit upset. She said, âYou could have just confessed.â And I said, âNo, itâs fine. She was okay after. I guess no, I havenât had much confrontation about that.â
Where have you arrived in your spiritual and religious beliefs yourself? Where are you today?
âI am really detached from any kind of religion. I just believe in the present and I believe in the moment of the now and whatâs going on. So I canât aspire to something that would bring to some future or that would bring me to my past. In my opinion, if there was a god, a lot of things that happen in my life would not have happened. If I really think that the gods would bring me somewhere, then why do they make us suffer? That is my way of thinking. So I do not believe that thereâs some entity. We create our own past.â
Did you grow up going to church every week with your parents?
âI was going sometimes when I was really little. With my grandparents actually. They believe in Catholicism but they donât go to church often. So I think thatâs why I didnât get any resistance, because they also didnât go for Christmas. They donât really practice the church, but they get the baptism, communion, and weddings. So itâs more because of that. Or like a loss of our loved ones, they organize a mass like once a year, or three times a year. They go to this mass when they can, just to honor the dead ones.â
Speaking of masses, I know your father passed. It sounds like it took you years to process that grief. Or perhaps you are still processing that?
âI still think I am processing it. It is strange. Also I wasnât there, so you know usually I leave and donât see them. So it was weird because I have lost already a few people in the last few years. Every time I go back there is one person less. It is a really bad feeling because itâs not like I was there seeing what was going on. Maybe itâs better because I donât see them every day and then they are gone immediately. So maybe from this point of view itâs better, but at the same time itâs weird for me to process it, because I am not with them. I guess if I was seeing the struggle of my mom, brother, and sister trying to get through a day, I would probably be able to also be with them and help them fight it instead of trying to avoid it. Which is what I did for years. Donât think about it and thatâs it.â
When it did start to hit you and sink in, what was your emotional response?
âI was of course really sad and really angry at myself because of the situation. I thought I couldnât be with them. I couldnât really support my father or my mother. So I think I have been really angry at myself. Really upset.â
Have you been able to come to a place where you can forgive yourself that you were not there?
âI donât know. I think I do forgive myself a little bit because I do realize I was really young and I was really weak. So I really couldnât handle it. I donât think that makes me a bad person. I wish I could have been there, thatâs my main regret.â
I wanted to talk a little bit more about your coming out. The way you described it made it sound like there was almost an eruption of emotion and frustration. You couldnât carry that weight or that burden anymore. You just kind of exploded. What were the ways that you moved forward after that? How did that change your life? I know you described at one point that you felt lighter and you were having fewer injuries in ballet, and maybe it had some other physical effects.
âI felt happier. I felt lighter. I felt happier because I think that was my problem to be accepted by everyone so I could accept myself. But I actually should accept myself, and thatâs been my issue my whole life. I think I felt lighter because I felt like my mother accepted me. She was the most important person in my life. So I was like, âOkay, maybe I can accept myself. I can accept these consequences and who I am.â I think thatâs been the struggle throughout my life, the acceptance or realizing who I really am. I also had another crisis. I got injured a few years ago. The doctor told me, âYou canât dance anymore.â And I was like, âImpossible.â So of course my reality crashed because all I could really do was dancing. So If I cannot dance anymore then who am I? I had an existential crisis. I think what I was trying to do was to put myself in the situation of being a student, for example, and trying to learn something that would be very simple. Go to work in a supermarket or go to work in a shop, something like that. Live a simple life, and just stay with my boyfriend and make a family. And this was actually killing me, because it wasnât what I wanted to do in the moment. It was because I was trying to become someone that I was not. So as soon as I left Germany and arrived in Belgium I exploded. I started painting, because my artistic side had been repressed for three years. I had thought I could be a non-artist person, but I realized that it was a part of me. I have to create. I have to move. I have to perform. I have to be related to art and an art form. I think it doesnât matter which one it is, but I think I have to have a connection to it. I was trying to not accept that side of me, of being an artist. And being maybe extrovert sometimes, be a bit crazy but also an introvert, because Iâm insecure and just be who I am. Thatâs it. So Iâm fighting with that.â
It sounds like having a connection to these outlets is keeping you connected to who you are and what makes you feel aligned, what brings you meaning and purpose to your life. I too can relate to that kind of deadening feeling of not feeling aligned with what makes you come alive, the internal conflict of that. You can only repress for so long before something explodes or breaks. Then everything is a mess. And it can be a liberating feeling. So where are you now in your life? Are you in a relationship? Where do you see yourself?
âRight now I am single. My dancing career is going very well, and I have been dancing very nice roles and amazing pieces. I am really excited about where I am at right now. Also my art career as an artist and painter is going very well. I think I am in a very good place. I am very happy, and I think I found myself being happier with myself. Itâs making it easier to open up and be closer to someone else, which before I couldnât do either. So I think now I guess Iâm open to any situation that could come along and see where itâs going to bring me. I am actually excited for whatâs going to come next. I feel like I have accomplished a lot and I am really happy about that. I can keep doing that. But also if something else comes along or swipes me off my feet then letâs see what happens.â
I met you earlier this afternoon, here in Miami. Typically I am the one who approaches strangers, asking them some questions like if I can photograph them and potentially interview them. But I didnât have my camera with me and I didnât have my recording device. You actually were the one who approached me, and here we are. Everything that you have shared with me about your own challenges and the internal struggles you have overcome and are still battling resonate with me. I feel like I needed to hear this as much as you needed to share it. I thank you for that. I am curious: As you have gone through these experiences over the last 15 years or so, what have you learned about yourself? Is there something that you are surprised by or taken away from this winding road?
âI have learned you have to accept yourself for who you are. You have to be truthful to yourself; otherwise, you are not hurting anyone else, you are just hurting yourself. Actually accepting who you really are and trying to not get upset when you make a mistake makes you feel better and brings you to a happier place. A few years ago I thought I will not be at this place. So I guess this is where I found out about myself.â
What advice would you offer to someone else, either to your younger self or to someone else who is feeling like they are afraid they are not going to be accepted, or they are struggling to accept themselves? Someone who is afraid to pursue something that makes them come alive because itâs not an anticipated path that one might take or should take. What would you say to that person?
âIf I could, I would give them a hug and I say first of all itâs okay to make mistakes. Itâs okay to feel like they are feeling. The only thing is to accept it and go on. Aim for your goals, because it really is where you put energy into that brings you something. So if you really want something, you can always achieve it. It just depends on you, and of course it might take longer or less time. It might be difficult. It is never easy. Nothing is ever easy. So thatâs what you have to bear in mindâitâs going to be a challenge. You have to be willing to do it. Otherwise, if you donât achieve your goals, or if you donât feel good about yourself, then it doesnât make sense. Right? I would say, just be yourself and fuck every kind of judgment. If someone else is looking at you with weird eyes, just smile and walk. Just be yourself. I realize it actually is really powerful. It is actually the most powerful thing I have found so far. It brings everything to you. You donât have to look for things. As soon as you accept yourself and you have your feet on the floor, automatically you can walk and run and go forward.â
A lot of people say that. I think sometimes we dismiss it as being cliché, but being who we are is one of the most courageous things we could potentially ever achieve.
âYes, because in this society no one is really who they are, unfortunately. Thereâs really a few people that are sticking with themselves.â
We talked about that just a little before the interview, just about our abilities to censor our lives now through social media and to filter out the stuff that makes us feel vulnerable and uncomfortable. The cost of that is that we are putting out an un-genuine, inauthentic version of ourselves. It makes it very difficult for us to then create meaningful connections with each other, because itâs just a very shallow, thin layer, a facade of who we really are. So, yeah, I think being true to who you are is one of the most courageous things anyone can do. Unfortunately, I know this was true for me, and I think it was true for you as well. We spend a lot of time searching for someone to teach us how to be who we are or to show us how to be who we are. Just like any other in thing nature, there is no one who can teach us to bloom, or a flower how to grow, a tree to grow, or teach an animal to know what to do. It comes down to instincts. We are born we these instincts. You sound like you discovered something inside you that you felt a connection to. It says âcreate, move, paint, create, dance.â And youâre responding to that. The universe continues to open up and provide opportunities for you to do that. I think that is a true testament to both courage and faith. If you are willing to step forward, the road will rise up and meet you every time. But itâs not going to come knocking at the door. You have to put your foot down first. Do you have a favorite quote, or a song lyric? Something that someone has said to you that is powerful and resonates with you that youâd like to share?
âNo, not really. Right now nothing comes to my mind, a quote or something.â
Is there something your father said to you that is something memorable to you?
âNo, not really. I forget a lot (laughs). I forget very quickly as well. I donât have something in my mind right now that I would tell you.â
Whoâs a painter who inspires you? Or a dancer?
âVan Gogh. I love his art. And actually when I was young, I was painting like him. I bought all these colorful âfillâ books. They were from Van Gogh, and I just loved them. I was painting at home. Whenever I was feeling depressed or after my dad died, the first thing I did was buy a canvas with colors and a pencil. It has always been related to my life, but I never accepted it. I did not know that it could be a thing. Within the last few years I realized it is more than a thing. It is as strong as performing on the stage.â
Is there any other last bit of sharing or a message that you would like to communicate in closing this interview with whoever may be reading or listening? Something else you would like to share?
âYeah. I know it is difficult, but try not to have fear. Be fearless. Donât think about the future or the past, just accept the present. Live in the moment. That is what I can say. That is my motto. (laughs)â
To live in the moment.
âTo live in the moment.â
That is a mindful practice. To be where your feet are.
âExactly. And then the rest will come.â
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What has been one of the most challenging things youâve experienced or are currently experiencing?
âLeaving a toxic relationship . . . toxic engagement.â
It sounds like a title to a movie or a book.
âYeah, sounds like a rock band, doesnât it? That was tough; that ended October 1st. It was one of those things where I kept trying to leave, but we were just so attached to each other because we were living together. I worked from home and she owned a yoga center. So, whenever she came home, I was home. We always did everything together. It was nice at first, but then she was very insecure and became very controlling. I say this after checking my ego; it wasnât me. I was never controlling of her, but I was attached to her. The way that I left was kind of cruel, but I had to. She went to visit her family in Brazil for three weeks. We were on thin ice because she would always argue with me and Iâm not an arguing person. I got really tired of it, so I said, âVictoria, when you go, I will not give you a single reason to argue with me, so please donât.â In my head, I said if she finds a way to argue with me, then I have to leave. On day 2, she got mad at me for some reason, so I packed up my stuff and left while she was in another country. I didnât see her, and that was about two months ago. I just saw her a couple of days ago because I think we both needed some closure. I just had to do it; I had to do it that way, because I knew that if I waited until she came back, I would fall back into the cycle.â
Tell me how you got into that relationship.
âIt was beautiful, like a fairy tale. She was the owner of a yoga center and I always viewed her as a goddess, a queen. She owns the yoga center, sheâs beautiful, sheâs so knowledgeable, and very kind but, also at the same time, very firm, which I like. I like confidence in people and I always thought that she was out of my league so I never tried. Then I did the yoga teacher training, which is six days a week, so I spent six days a week with her and I got really close with her, me and a couple other people in the class. I mustered up the courage to ask her to spend time with me outside of class, and it went really well. She kept saying that she couldnât break that student-teacher promise that she had with herself, and I was like, âYes you can, itâs okay.â She was insecure from the beginning, but I felt that I could fix it, âI will be the best man she could ever have.â I said to myself that Iâll be the best version of myself that I could possibly be; I will fulfill her needs and there will be no reason for her to be insecure; that should have been the first red flag.
âEverything happened so fast. I was also in another toxic friendship with my roommates at the time, a lot of drinking, a lot of irresponsibility; it was like a big party house. I was also being disrespected all the time. My roommates were just mean people. Victoria and I had been together for about two months and I had already been staying with her basically every night because I didnât want to be at my apartment and she was like, âWhy donât we just move in together?â and I was like that sounds fuckinâ great. So, two months in, we moved in together. In hindsight, it probably wasnât the best idea, but we moved in together and thatâs when it started to go downhill.â
What was the first sign that it was going downhill?
âI could never make her happy. At first I could, but then it was can you help me with this, can you do that, and I love helping people that I love. She asked me to help with things for her business, multiple things a day (her responsibilities for her business); instead of receiving a thank you, a hug, or a kiss, it was another demand. When I put my foot down and said, âIâm sorry I canât help you with this,â that was our first big argument. I said I have my own life and my own responsibilities, and I canât spend all my time taking care of yours. I told her I would help her when I could, but I couldnât do multiple things a day to help her business. That was the first sign, really.â
Did that feel uncomfortable for you creating that boundary, living in her space (Iâm assuming you moved in with her)?
âYeah. I was always very respectful and mindful of how I lived with her in the beginning and in the middle too but, towards the end, we resented each other, so it was different. I always made sure the toilet was clean, the bath was clean, and the dishes were done. I respected the fact that she let me stay with her there very, very much. We were in that spot for about two months and she wanted to move. I told her that it didnât make sense to move out, as it was a nice place and we were both really busy (she was opening a new yoga center). I told her that it wasnât a good idea to open a new yoga center and move in the same month. She was really adamant about it and went and signed a lease without me knowing about it and told me âweâre movingâ and I was like âwhat?â So, this is where the control started to come in . . . I forget what the question was.â
I was just curious if it was difficult for you to define that boundary with her, knowing that you were in her space, essentially sharing.
âYes, it was. I was grateful that she allowed me to move into her space and I wanted to help her as much as I could so, of course, it was uncomfortable for me to say no to something she asked me to do. However, it was every day, multiple things, and it started to affect my business and my own well-being. It was hard to put that first boundary down and there was a lot of resistance from her to that boundary; that made it even more difficult.â
Was there ever a time where you felt that she would just toss you out?
âNo. We were very attached to each other. She never wanted me to leave the apartment, ever. She always wanted me there. I alienated myself from my friends and family because, if and when she came home and I wasnât there, it was a big problem, which was cute at first, but it got old fast. I like spending time with somebody Iâm with, but she really wanted all of my time. I appreciate how much she loved me but, at the same time, I had other people I wanted to spend time with. However, she took that as I didnât want to spend any time with her.â
Do you feel there was emotional abuse in the relationship?
âYes. She was what is called love showering. She would upset me somehow or we would get into an argument and, once she realized that she was in the wrong, she would give me gifts, cook for me, cuddle with me, and spend the whole night doing whatever I would like, and that was definitely emotional abuse. Also, the biggest thing she would say to me was âyou donât love me, you hate me, and youâre cheating on me.â Those are three big emotional abuse tactics, I guess you could say, and then it would inevitably lead to an argument. âYes, I love you,â âno you donât.â Of course I love you very much; no you donât, you did this, this, and that, and then it would move forward. Or, you hate me and I would say, I donât like the word hate, so donât say the word hate; well, you hate me or youâre cheating on me, fucking other girls; I spend all of my time here, how could I be cheating on you. I donât think she really knew what she was doing; I think she was so wildly insecure that thatâs all she really knew. That was definitely emotional abuse.â
How did that feel to have her confine your life in such a way that you felt you were isolated?
âI began to resent her very quickly. I began to plot ways of leaving her after we had been together for eight months, but I had such a high image of her in my head for years of being suited, and thought that this must be a phase, there must be something wrong here. What was the question again? Iâm sorry, this gets me emotional.â
I was just curious how that felt to be put in a box.
âMy parents told me I was like a trophy to hold, dust off, and then go back to work. As a result of that, I would do really irresponsible things to lash out. Iâm very energetic, so my energy would be kept in and I would do something crazy. We would have a big blowout argument and then I would go and do a bunch of drugs for a night, or go out and get drunk for a whole night, or do something stupid.â
Had you had an experience like this before in a previous relationship?
âNo, never. Iâve only had one serious relationship and one kind of serious relationship, but Iâve never experienced this before. It was very weird. Iâm still kind of learning what love is, but I know that wasnât it.â
At what point did you and she become engaged? When did that happen?
âI will say a lot of tension on the relationship was due to the fact that I would have to leave for three or four weeks at a time. I understood and told her that this is the way it is, and if you canât handle it, I respect and understand if you want to end the relationship. Somebody very close to me needed help, so I had to go and help him, and she didnât understand that. Iâm sorry, whatâs the question again?â
The engagement?
âHonestly, I thought I was losing her, so I did it as a Hail Mary. I flew down to Miami during our one-year anniversary and I proposed to her where we had our first kiss, because I felt the relationship dying, but I was so attached to her. I thought that it was a good idea, and it really wasnât, and then she held that over my head; âpropose to me again, I didnât like the first proposal. I didnât like it, it wasnât good enough for me.â I look back and laugh at it; I laughed at it in the moment too, but only of its absurdity. Itâs so stupid; I should have left long ago.â
Why didnât you? What do you think kept you there?
âThe lifestyle. I was very attached to her. I was very attached to Miami. I was very attached to Synergy, the yoga center, and she was kind of my ticket to all of that. I stayed for so long because I thought I could make it work somehow, and that was that.â
You mentioned that she was away, you gave her an opportunity to kind of not initiate a fight with you, like this is it, if you initiate a fight . . .
âI didnât tell her that I was going to leave, though. All I said was, âI beg you, please donât give me a reason to argue with you or for you to argue with me.â I didnât tell her I was going to leave if she did and said to her, âI promise I will not give you any reason.â It was something stupidâI called her late at night, because I forgot about the time difference; it woke up her mom, and she got mad at me for that. Iâm like, âLet it go, please let it goâ; I really didnât want to leave, I really didnât want to leave, I really didnât. I wanted to stay and make it work.â
Itâs like you had already decided in your mind that one more straw on the camelâs back is going to break it.
âRight. Another thing was she drove me to a point once where I broke a glass frame, held the glass to my wrist, and then tried leaving her for the first time. She copied that behavior where she broke a wine glass, held it to her wrist, and said that she was going to kill herself. Thatâs why I left when she wasnât there; I didnât want to risk that again or at least be there if she was to do that again. I know that sounds terrible, but I got to the point where I had to look out for myself. It really changed who I was. I view myself as a very bright ball of sun. When you try to put a box on that ball of sun, it bursts forth, eventually it cracks and a beam shoots out. For me, instead of positivity, I would do something fuckinâ crazy; it would drive me to do some crazy shit. The whole glass thing was definitely so out of character for me. I love myself. I would never kill or hurt myself, I never have, and never thought of doing it. It was weird.â
Did it work in getting your message across to her?
âNo. She was afraid of me for a couple of days, understandably so. I had something in my headâI had the glass frame, shattered, and I was like, âFuck, I have to clean this up.â I was so emotionally charged up at the moment, my hand was shaking visibly, and I was having completely irrational emotional thoughts. I was thinking âwell, she fuckinâ hates me, she must want me to fuckinâ die or kill myself, and I canât live without her.â So, that makes sense, it was stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid. I found the biggest piece of glass I could find and held it to her face; it was stupid, it was very dumb. Then she did the same thing to me; she copied that behavior when I tried to leave her. When she did that, I slowly made my way to her and then, when I got close enough, I grabbed her wrist and pulled it away. Then we spent the night together so I could make sure that she wouldnât leave; I stayed up most of the night. I donât think she meant it. I think she was copying what I did and she didnât know what she was doing. There was a lot of stress on us because we both had businesses, and both of them were suffering. Combine that with a broken relationship, we were both sane doing insane things, very out of character. It feels good to talk about this; thank you.â
Youâre welcome. You were at a place in your life where you were doing some really irrational things and you were probably able to recognize in that moment that they felt out of character. Did it inspire you to do anything, to change anything?
âI would just feel more anger towards her, but now I realize it was anger towards myself for allowing it to happen and allowing myself to stay there for so long. It didnât really inspire me to do anything because I felt so enraged all the time and couldnât think clearly. It was so weird because when I was in the apartment, it was hell and when I left the apartment, it was heaven. It was South Beach; I could go skateboarding, go to the beach and go swimming. So, it was really weird. Iâm very lucky because I have great parents and they really love me. When I finally mustered up the courage to tell my parents what was really going on, thatâs when I said âI need to liveâ. My dad told me that if she hurts herself when youâre there, youâre going to jail, and I was like, fuck, youâre right. My parents really inspired me to leave; my friends, too.
âPreviously in my life, in order to make a big decision, I needed to have validation from multiple people. I would get it from my parents and my friends (many of them), and they all said, âyes, this is right, leave her.â Now, Iâm working on not needing validation to do things. Iâm coming along okay. Back then, I really needed validation, especially with her; my only validation came from her for a long time. It was like, âhey, is this a good idea? no,â then I wouldnât do it, and most of my ideas were bad anyway. If it didnât involve her or helping her somehow, it was always a bad idea. My physical self deteriorated; I let my beard get all big (beards look good, but not on me). My hair grew long and my physique shriveled to nothing. I was living in Miami, but I was very pale. I wasnât flossing and wasnât regularly showering. I was just a shell of myself. It was weird. To think that was only three to four months ago, it really shows me the power of how long a month really is; a month is a long time. Itâs been four months since I left.â
Looking back on the state you were in, would you recognize that as being depressed, suffering from anxiety, abusive relationship . . . how do you see that on looking back at it?
âI donât know yet. Because it was such high emotional highs and such low emotional lows, I donât know what the word to describe that is. She meant a lot to me; she showed me a lot; she showed me yoga; she showed me traveling. We went to Peru together. We went to Costa Rica together. I will say that we did a lot for each other. I did a lot for her and she did a lot for me, and thatâs really nice and Iâm very grateful for that; but we also did the opposite to each other. We did really good things to each other and we did really bad things to each other. So, I donât think it was depression. I donât think it was anxiety. The right words were confusion and anger. I donât know what mental state that is, but confusion and anger combined with a lot of love randomly.â
You finally work up the courage to leave her, but it sounds like you donât feel good about the way you left.
âNo. It was my only option. Looking back on it, I got validation. Hereâs the situation and they were like âthis is the only chance youâre going to have to do it like this.â Also, to move out of someoneâs place itâs not like a two-hour thing, it takes a couple of days. I actually did move out of her place once, and I did the same thing. She went to work and I just packed up all my shit and left, but then I moved back a week later because I missed her so much, and thatâs why I knew I had to leave Florida because I moved down the street the first time. If I had moved back to Connecticut at that time, I would not have moved back. Thatâs why I knew I had to leave the way I did. I wouldnât say I regret it and I wonât say I like it, but it was the right thing to do for both of us, because now sheâs happy with somebody else, and thatâs great. Iâm happier, much happier, grown so much, and learned a lot about myself. Iâm really glad I got closure the other day, because we laid down together and it just didnât feel right. I went there, she started crying and we laid down on the couch. I just felt bland; I didnât feel love; I didnât feel anger. I didnât feel anything. I think she felt the same way, so it was good to get the closure. As I told you before, even after I broke up with her, she would argue with me every day, calling me and texting me terrible things, so I blocked her on everythingâFacebook, Instagram, text messaging, and Whatsapp; everything except for email because I donât know how to block email. Once I did that, I think she got the message. I had blocked her for a good two months, maybe about six weeks, and I unblocked her, told her that I was in Miami and I wanted to see her; it was good.â
Tell me about those weeks, or months, that you leave her and come back to Connecticut. What does that look like?
âI got to the airport early so I could get really drunk. I almost got sick on my flight because I was drinking so much. I landed with a hangover because I fell asleep and then I went out to go drink again. That whole month was just a blur of alcohol and Adderall, if I could get my hands on it; itâs tough to find. I did it for work so I didnât feel anything. The first month was bad. I was a regular at a bar; I wasnât myself. Iâm a yoga instructor. Iâm a light in peopleâs life. I canât be in a dark bar, eating this poison, eating this terrible food all the time.
âI got really plastered one night, woke up with a terrible handover, and said âI need to stop this.â Nobody told me to stop what I was doing because I was pretty good at hiding it. I just knew that I had my fifteenth chance (Iâve been given a lot of chances in my life) to really get myself together and make my own life. Iâve always had roommates and then I was living with her. This was a chance for me to really build myself and do what I want to do, not what other people want me to do. So, it was just like a snap; Iâm done. I stopped drinking and then I quit caffeine. Together, that was really hard. Mainly because the alcohol was something to do. I had all of these emotions going through my head, and it got me out of my house. It got me kind of social. Alcohol has a numbing effect so I wouldnât feel the emotional pain. Then I would reward myself with greasy, terrible food, it was vegan, but it was French fries and whatnot, and it wasnât good. I just needed to stop and start cooking for myself again because my skin was breaking out all the time. I was pale, had long hair, and a big beard. I didnât look good and I didnât feel good.
âI started taking care of myself. I slipped a couple of times. I went out, had a drink or two, and got a little bit drunk. Overall, I massively improved, massively, although the first month was really tough. I think I had sex with somebody, or a couple of people, Iâm not sure. I think I just called up an old booty call, just to get it out of my system. Oh, yeah, I remember how it went: I actually drove to Misquamicut and it was unconnected, no meaning, just getting it off for old timeâs sake. The connection we had wasnât there anymore, so it was even more depressing.
âI started taking care of myself for a month steady. Somebody really nice came along, it was an old friend; but then she was emotionally unavailable and that didnât work out. That was a huge test for me because I was doing so good with not drinking, no caffeine and no sugar; I felt that pull to go to the bar. I felt it in the pit of my stomach, just fuckinâ go, just fuckinâ go; youâve been so good for so long, just go and get drunk, and I said no, Iâm going to do something more crazy; Iâm not going to have sex for three months, and I put it on line and not release, and that made it tough. I think social media can be great or it can be terrible, and I try to make it great. Holding yourself socially accountable to something really helps me. So, I put it on line that Iâm not having sex for three months or Iâm not doing this for a while, and I say to myself, if somebody sees me in a bar, then they know Iâm a liar and theyâre not going to listen to any of the good things that I say. Instead of going out to bars, I go to another extreme. Now, I just keep doing extremely positive things, which is good. Itâs good for me and for others. As a result of this, I read more books, I write a lot more, and I write music now, which is cool. I had never written music before. Iâve played guitar for about ten years, but I had never written a song until that girl went back to her ex-boyfriend.
âEverythingâs much, much better now. It was really hard because it was like two break-ups. Even though I wasnât with the second girl long, there was a really strong emotional connection and we had been friends for eight years. To finally make that work, it was so random, she was spending every day with me, we were having a great time together, and then all of a sudden she said I canât see you anymore after three weeks of that; so it was like two breakups; but I also jumped in too quickly after the last relationship.â
Looking back on those relationships, it seems like there were some similar behaviors. You had said the last girl you mentioned was emotionally unavailable, and we had chatted earlier and you recognized that also exists within you, that youâre emotionally unavailable, and perhaps thatâs a mirror.
âYes, I see that. Another good thing is that Iâve eliminated anger with her; I let that go. Instead of being angry with that girl, I never was angry with her. You seek your own level, if that makes sense. Whatever you put out, you get back; itâs the law of attraction. These things that she is experiencing, I am. She was emotionally unavailable, and so was I. Another girl I dated four weeks after that, same thing, she was emotionally unavailable, and Iâm still trying to figure it out. I always hung out with them and I was always very present when I spent time with them. I was very passionate about Missy and I wore my heart on my sleeve. I was like âI like you and letâs spend more time together.â I donât know how thatâs emotionally unavailable, but thereâs probably a part of me that is, but I just donât recognize it yet. I know that itâs in me because I wouldnât attract these kinds of people if it wasnât. Like you were saying before, a big thing for me is understanding that people are near, and I knew that when I was with Victoria, so that made me more angry because I thought why canât I fix myself and why am I putting her through me, if that makes sense?â
Where are you finding yourself now at this point in your life?
âIâm on the biggest upward spiral that Iâve ever experienced in my life in terms of business, physical self, educating myself, self-care, self-love, the friendships I have, and how I spend my time. Every aspect of my life is doing so good, and Iâm so tempted to fuck it up. Iâm so tempted to, I donât know, reward myself and go out and get really drunk, but I know myself, I know that if I do that, itâs going to reverse the upward spiral. Itâs just the little villain within myself thatâs had control over a lot of my life. I donât want to say that I have control over it, but Iâm eliminating it. I donât want to control anything, I just want to get rid of things, and Iâm trying to get rid of those attachments Iâve had towards self-destruction.
âIâm great now. The last person I dated, the whole thing that happenedâI wasnât upset about it; I was just like âokay, whatever.â Mainly because itâs probably unhealthy in a sense. Iâm so busy that Iâm putting my energy into my business. I like it because I put energy and time into my business and I get a really good return, whereas I would put energy and love into somebody else and I usually wouldnât get anything in return, so itâs kind of nice. But I have to watch myself to make sure I donât shut out people and emotional connections entirely. Iâm open to it, but Iâm not searching for it. I wasnât searching for Victoria when I first started dating her. I said to myself Iâm in Miami, Iâm not going to have a fuckinâ girlfriend in Miami; itâs the worst place to have a girlfriend.
âNow, Iâm doing really well and in looking back on it, I should have left about eight months in. I think I was using . . . I definitely was using when I first started dating her. I was using a bunch of amphetamines because my other business was doing really well and I was up for days at a time, and I hid it from her. When things were getting more serious and I left that party household, I stopped using, but then my business started suffering and I thought it was because I wasnât using. So I started using again, and then I used more because of me and what was happening with her. It was like this: I would use, then I wouldnât use, then I would use when I was with her. The worse it got and I couldnât get my hands on the drugs that wanted, I turned to cocaine. I remember once I did it for two weeks, every day in a row, to work, because my brain was telling me that in order to make money, I need to do drugs. Because I was doing so much drugs, I needed to make a lot of money. For two weeks, I was doing a bunch of blow. I would have headaches, Iâd always be sniffling, and I would blow out scabs in my nose. My parents asked me what was wrong, am I okay? Thatâs when I knew that I needed to slow down. I got to the point where I stopped seeking, but if it presented itself to me, I wouldnât say no. And then sometimes I would seek if I was really overwhelmed, and now Iâm still at that phase where if itâs presented to me, Iâll probably do it, but not nearly as bad as it was and I donât seek anymore, which is good. Iâm really learning to value and appreciate myself and know that I donât need those things to do great things; they actually hinder me from doing great things.â
Thatâs a really important observation to make.
âThanks. Itâs weird because when I was making a lot of money, I was using, and everybody I knew who was making more money than I was also using. So, it made sense, staying up for three days at time, watching your ads and testing products. If theyâre doing it, I want to do it. Then it stopped working for everybody, but everybody kept using, and then I just stopped hanging out with those people, and that helped.â
Who do you find yourself hanging out with now? Do you have a core group of friends?
âMyself and my little sister a lot; sheâs the coolest. Sheâs fourteen and sheâs like my best friend. Honestly, I really spend a lot time by myself.â
Whatâs that feel like?
âGood. It feels good. I feel lonely sometimes, but then I jump into a cold pool and Iâm fine. Cold stuff really helped me out a lot, man. It really helped me. Itâs like a huge shock. Getting into that water and staying still, meditating in it. It takes so much will power and focus; when I get out, it washes away my anxiety and negativity. I also feel like I need to find a better business/life balance. This has happened to me before where if Iâm not working, I get anxious. I donât get anxious at the gym because I know that I need to go to the gym, but when Iâm spending time doing something else and not working (like when Iâm at the gym), I get anxious about not working. So, I need to hire somebody basically or something like that.
âBeing alone is good, especially after being with somebody who wouldnât leave me alone for so long. Going back to how I value myself: I really appreciate who I am and I donât want to be around people who will bring me down. I want to uplift people. I view it like thisâthere are people who are influenced by other people when they walk into a room and there are people who influence other people when they walk into a room. I am making that shift right now, from being influenced to becoming an influencer. Iâm finding it takes a lot of alone time to find myself, to shed a lot of karma and bad habits, and become really comfortable with who I am. Thatâs why Iâm alone right now, and itâs not a bad thing. Iâm very busy, and itâs good. Everything is growing so much; I donât want to ruin it.â
It sounds like youâre growing as well.
âYeah, thanks. Previously in my life, when I walked into a room, I made it happy and stuff; but, more often than not, Iâd be influenced by the energy of the people around me, but I want to change that. I think about an enlightened master; you just sit around and listen. I want people to listen to what I have to say, but I want to make sure that what Iâm saying is not coming from the ego. I want to make sure that what Iâm saying is beneficial to them, if that makes sense. Iâm alone a lot, reading and listening to a lot of masters on YouTube or whatever, educating myself, especially about veganism too; Iâm learning more about that.â
If you could catch yourself at another point in your life, maybe before some of these things happened, perhaps even when you were a teenager, knowing what you know now, what message or wisdom would you impart to your younger self?
âNever pick up drugs, never. I was so against drugs my whole life. I had a retainer, after I had my braces that literally said âno drugsâ on it. I was soooo against drugs. When I started raving, I was known as a sober raver. I would never take ecstasy or Adderall, nothing. I would just go there and be so high off the energy and the music that I was fine. And then, it was a harmless mistakeâI was really tired one night, driving, and my friend had a Vyvanse prescription and he said, âHere, take one of these and youâll stay awake.â Itâs chasing the dragon, I think they call it in China, the opium. Itâs been like that ever since. I got that really wicked, fuckinâ awesome high and I was so productive, happy, and talkative when I took my first amphetamine. Like anyone else, I would just take it when I would go to a party and then I would take it when I was tired and needed to work, then I would take it for days at a time. Iâd stop for a week, then pick it up again, and then it got to a point where I would use it, at my worst was a three- or four-month period where I would use every day and I would be up for three or four days at a time and then crash for a day and a half. Then, I would wake up and the first thing I would do is take a 30mg instant release Adderall. It was right next to my bed. I would roll over and take it, lay in bed for ten minutes, let it hit, get up and go, and Iâd be up for days. I guess if there was one point that I could stop myself, it would be to say no to that one Vyvanse pill, because thatâs what really kicked it all off. Thatâs how all drugs are, really; itâs scary.
âI have a very addictive personality, although I have more control over it now. If I really like something or someone, I spend a lot of my time doing that thing or spending time with that person. I have control over that now, thank God; but, back then, I didnât, especially when it came to using. I wanted to feel good all the time. It was many thingsâusing with my friends, so that was good, the high felt good, I was making money at the same time, and I was living in a penthouse in Miami Beach. There were all of these really good feelings that I was attached to that got me hooked and, once everything left, I still wanted to use.â
Is it fair to say that Victoria was a drug for you, in a sense?
âYeah. The emotional highs and lowsâthatâs a drug for me. When itâs high, itâs great, I thought it could always be like this. When itâs low, I was like âfuck it, I donât want to be here,â and then something would happen. It was so weird; we would be so mad at each other and then something stupid would happen and we would laugh, kiss and make up, even after a long argument with yelling and screaming. She was definitely a drug for sure. When she was happy, she was the best; she was so cool. She had a really thick accent, it was so cute; I loved it. When we were happy, we were really happy. She is so smart and everything. I was ready to have kids with her at one point. Thank God I didnât. She was definitely a drug.â
Looking ahead on your life from here, what do you see for yourself? Whatâs on your map?
âShort term, I want to grow my business to a multimillion-dollar company annually, which I think I can do this year; I know I can do this year. As a result of that, I want to take care of my parents and move somewhere different. I want to have a really good work environment for my employees. Iâll be remote, but want to make sure they have good pay. I want to travel and see the world. Honestly, within five years, I want to have a couple million dollars in the bank and go off the grid. I want to get some land in South America, grow my own food, have an animal sanctuary, and detach from everything, including Wi-Fi, study yoga and meditation, learn, and have a big library. Iâm talking in the mountains, away from everything, and be the way Mother Nature intended us to be and learn from the greatest teacher, which is nature. So, thatâs probably in about five years; but before I do that, I want to have money in the bank, just in case. I would like to do that right now, but I would just come crawling back in a couple of months I know, so I want to make sure Iâm financially secure before I do that. So thatâs it: grow my business, move to the jungle, take care of my family, and maybe find love along the way. Iâm not bent on getting into a relationship whatsoever, although I do miss intimacy, but thatâs pretty much it.
âDo you know what the Bhagavad Gita is? Itâs a well-known Hindu text between Krishna and Pandava prince Arjuna as they are about to go into war. There are a lot of metaphors, and basically one of the metaphors is that the chariot has five horses, which are the five senses. Krishna controls the horses, so he controls his five senses. I understand that touch is a sense, and Iâm craving the sense of touch with somebody, but I need to control that and get that under control. So, itâs another test for me right now.â
Through these experiences over the last few years, what have you learned about yourself, anything that stands out?
âI learned that I have an addictive personality. I learned that I let things go for way too long. I learned that I need to be more responsible. All of these things Iâm already working on. Iâve made such progress, but I also learned that itâs okay to stop spending time with certain people and people do change, and itâs okay to stop talking to them once they do change, and to move forward in your life. About myself . . . I think thatâs pretty much it; I canât think of anything else right now.â
Okay.
âMore self-control and more standing up for myself, in a polite way. Like I said, I let things go for way too long. I lived with Gilla for too long, and she was emotionally abusing me for way too long. The same thing with Victoria. I have to learn to recognize those signs early on and to leave.â
Do you have a favorite mantra, quote, song lyric, or something that someone said to you that resonates with you?
âOne that sticks out to me is a John Mayer lyric that says, I think I told you before, âfear is a friend thatâs misunderstood.â I was afraid to leave Victoria, I was afraid to leave Gilla, and I was afraid to leave Miami. As soon as I did, it was the best thing I ever did. A lot of really enlightened, smart people say that fear is their best friend, and that really helped me. I was afraid to stop using. I was making money because I was using, and I was afraid to stop using. I was afraid of a lot of things.
âAnother mantra that sticks with me is a new mantra, Om Namah Shivaya. Itâs a chant to Shiva, who is the God of destruction and change and a couple of other things, but change is the only constant. When I chant that mantra (it utilizes binaural beats), I chant it 108 times. It really helps me channel energy to accept and embrace change. Since I left Florida, there has been massive change. Iâm single, Iâm not living in the same space, and Iâm improving myself. Itâs a constant, constant change.
âThose are the two things that stick with meâaccept fear and embrace change.â
I think fear is something we spend a lot of our lives trying to run away from.
âYes, and we should be running towards it. The greatest things in life are found on the opposite side of fear. Someone else told me that.â
How did it feel to talk about these experiences and feelings with me today?
âReally good, because I feel guilty talking to people about it because I donât want to waste their time. But if Iâm going to help other people, I donât feel guilty talking about it. Thank you very much for listening to me.â
Youâre welcome. Do you think itâs possible that by sharing your thoughts, feelings and experiences today like this, someone on the receiving end could potentially benefit from some hope or inspiration?
âYes. I think so, because I heard something similar when I was with Victoria, and it was a seed. I didnât take immediate action on it, but it definitely grew over time. So, I think that somebody listening could definitely benefit. It could be that seed for them; it could be that breaking point.â
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