#Alicent being aged down and raped

[thesilverlady]

There is something really bothering me in the show, why there is an obsession in turning every relationship abusive? Viserys/Alicent wasn't abusive in the book, Aegon/Helaena wasn't abusive and if Aegon was an asshole to his wife grrm will not shy away from writing it down (we have seen it with other targaryen men) Daemon was ambitious and his ambition was one of the reasons why get with Rhaenyra but he will never physically abuse her and Rhaenyra will never allow it she literally wanted him to be in jail just because she believed he has cheated on her let alone hit her lmao even Larys/Alicent there is no mention in the book that larys was a creep and the way his scene with Alicen screams ableism. Like I would never understand why Ryan thought it would be a good idea to make every fucking female character get abused 💀

the answer is ✨ misogyny ✨ anon

f&b has misogyny as a theme and I swear to god, nobody and nothing can convince me that Ryan read that book. He probably saw a mention of this and thought "oh okay, I can do women suffering. Easy!"

When it came to the dance era, the misogyny we saw was mostly towards Rhaneyra, since she was challenging the system by fighting for her rightful claim.

There were some "softer" instances that people brash over, for instance Alicent being rumored to be fucking the old King, the Viserys, then losing her virginity to Daemon out of revenge. Alicent probably didn't do much to stir though rumors. She just existed, interacted with some men and because mushroom is delusional and the maesters women-haters they threw ideas here and there. Of course whatever rumors she had at the start are brushed over extremely quickly, so I can see why nobody even brings it up. Whereas with Rhaneyra they're always present because the maesters are very biased.

But you're completely right, Viserys& Alicent didn't have a single hint that could indicate their marriage to be abusive.

Rhaenyra & Daemon may have had their drama during the war but Rhaneyra was a prideful woman and she would have never let daemon talk to her - let alone touch her, the way the show portrayed him to do so.

Aegon & Helaena's marriage is also not really reported other than it happened and it led to children. The end. Everything else is brushed over and Helaena and her kids exist to die and push further the story. But again, no mention of abuse or mistreatment. At best you could claim indifference. But even that it's a matter of interpretation.

And yeah Larys wasn't a weirdo in canon and I'm honest surprised how the casual albeism in the show did very little noise 💀

Ryan and the team probably think misogyny = women being treated terribly by their significant other + trauma.

Writing it about it being systematic and having a female character at a disadvantage while being theoretically in a position of power is far too challenging for him, hence why we got this salad of mess

[sunfyrisms]

rhaenicent being made canon—or even implied—is a travesty. it completely ignores how these two women have hurt each other.

was alicent aged down just for this dynamic? was her status as a child bride, her trauma, the fact her children are conceived through marital rape, just an after thought? why must her entire world revolve around rhaenyra? why must she sacrifice her family—the family she fought for, the family she so deeply loves, the family she literally attacked rhaenyra for—just to appease rhaenyra?

why would rhaenyra want anything to do with the woman who aided in the usurpation of her throne? who’s son murdered her own? the woman who refused a peaceful end to the war (however poorly written that damn septa scene was)? why must rhaenyra demand another son’s head when her insane husband already had alicent’s grandson brutally murdered? the debt has been paid.

it makes the characters inconsistent. the meetings between the two characters in season two were unnecessary. the parallels they force are unnecessary. the character assassination is unnecessary and tragic. if the media you consume has no problem forcing two characters together at the expensive of their characterization, it isn’t representation. it isn’t a good ship. it’s a poorly written fanfic. it is a cash grab.

[queenvhagar]

So the writers aged Alicent down, proceeded to show a sex scene where Alicent was straight up disassociating and not into it, (martial rape), showed Viserys treating her badly numerous times, being a bad father to their kids, and they still wrote the line “he was fond of me, and I of him”

Just so gross on so many levels🤢. What was the point of aging her down just to ignore all of that. They could have easily had her be a little older than Rhaenyra and still be friends, or be a big sister to her.

For real like THEY did that. They chose to make Viserys marry a teenager and force her to have sex with him even when she didn't want to and make her have babies for him and then ignore her wishes and her children with them. And in their eyes they think that's a loving marriage. Like COME ON you guys did this and then did nothing with it?

They easily could've done that big sister thing if they didn't want the stepmother relationship. Would honestly prefer that to the terrible stuff they're pushing between the two right now and the ways it's breaking the story.

[alicentflorent]

Alicent was turned from a complex character (villain even, depending on your interpretation) to a cautionary tale about women who go against their own interests by enabling the patriarchy.

The show has stripped her of her agency, the love she has for her people, the role she plays on the council and her ability to manipulate others to her cause. She doesn’t have any goals whether that’s wanting to gain power through her sons or wanting her sons in a position that will keep them from being killed because they are a threat to Rhaenyra’s claim and her rumoured to be bastard children’s claim. In the show she’s seen as a victim but only when she’s not lashing out or expressing any negative behaviours connected to her victimisation. Despite actually having power and sons and a sworn protector that will kill for her her Ally blackmails her into sex acts and she is blamed by the audience for going along with it and people compare it to “doing only fans” (sexploitation is a more accurate modern example) the show could have had her pull rank because she is still a respected queen but the writers intentionally included this storyline to humiliate her and to bring her down a peg or two (the actor who plays Larys has also stayed Larys does this to make her feel disgust at her own body) it’s not something the audience empathizes with as they may with the marital rape because “she has a choice” this time and “she benefits from it” - something that creates a dangerous narrative for victims in the real world btw. She’s not the head of the green council or even aware of it - the misogynists that want Aegon on the throne never even consider including her - the existing plot while proving that her fears for aegon’s life were correct, the bigger point it drills in is Alicent has no power, they include her as the dowager queen after she says she’s on board but she only has whatever power men allow her to have. She doesn’t claw her way to the top or have any control over the council. She has a fan favourite character call her out for “living her life in service of men” despite the fact that any woman who isn’t Rhaenyra can only gain power through their husbands or the their (fathers) family name because women are trying to survive in a feudalistic society. There’s no nuance here, Alicent doesn’t say anything back, she’s the woman choosing the wrong side after all.

It gets worse in season two, she’s having consensual sex and experiencing pleasure for the first time but we don’t see how the relationship starts a just another way for the the audience to point out her hypocrisy. Oh and her grandson is murdered in front of her daughter while Alicent is fucking the kingsguard which ties her ‘sin’ and secrets to the murder that she is present for in the books. Another way to punish her for choosing the wrong side. She’s shown to be everything Rhaenyra isn’t, while Rhaenyra and Rhaenys are respected by their family and the blacks council, Alicent is seen as weak, a political pawn and hypocritical woman who has made her own bed and doesn’t even have the respect of sons let alone the council. Alicent should have just been a girls girl and stood by Rhaenyra who doesn’t want to hurt anyone, not even her sons killer apparently.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

https://www.tumblr.com/rise-my-angel/740720343328686080/the-new-hotd-trailer-has-reminded-me-how-badly?source=share.

1. Jaehaera was not raped...

2. Rhaenyra was having a breakdown on Dragonstone after learning about Luke's death when she received Daemon's letter stating that he would avenge Luke (the letter doesn't even explain how he would avenge Luke). How is that her fault?

3. Aegon is also a rapist in the books, it's not an invention by the writers.

"Who are you?" [Helaena] demanded of the two. "Debt collectors," said Cheese. "An eye for an eye, a son for a son. We only want the one, t' square things. Won't hurt the rest o' you fine folks, not one lil' hair. Which one to you want t' lose Your Grace?" Cheese warned the queen to make a choice soon, before Blood grew bored and raped her little girl. Strange to say, the ratcatcher and the butcher were true to their word. They did no further harm to Queen Helaena and her surviving children. (Fire and Blood: The Dying of the Dragons - A Son for a Son)

You're right anon, Jaehaera was never raped, it was only threatened to hurry Helaena along. I don't understand why TG stans want to add to this event so badly, it's already horrific. It's actions like that which show how GRRM is once again choosing to have morally gray protagonists. TB is in the right about the Dance and who they're supporting, but that doesn't mean their heroes or even morally good in their actions.

It's interesting how op decided to complain that Aegon might be portrayed as incompetent. Aegon was incompetent in the book, so incompetent he was murdered by his own supporters. He's remembered as being one of the most useless kings of Westeros. Saying they're going to dumb him down to make Rhaenyra look better shows how op has never read the book, or even Aegon's wiki lmao.

Further proving my point is the stupidly blind argument of how Aegon "isn't a rapist in the book". The delusion of the TG stans is neverending.

I think the most incredible take in this post is how apparently, in the eyes of op, Criston isn't an incel in season one?? Did we watch the same show? Criston makes the immediate turn to hating Rhaenyra and literally killing people associated with her family after she rejects him. He makes hating her his entire personality for the whole ass show once she refuses to run away with him. He thinks he's entitled to Rhaenyra's entire life and body just because she slept with him once. He's the definition of an incel, go cry about it greenies.

B&C was done without Rhaenyra's knowledge or approval, as you said. Daemon acted on his own (he is a true gray character). She was separated from Daemon when he made his choice, so she had even less control over what he did. Added to that is how Rhaenyra was busy with other fronts of the war and negotiating, how can she be expected to micromanage her husband?

Now, while the original post was written I think before Condal started teasing the whole "people will want to switch sides", the reblog definitely wasn't. Condal has revealed that he plans to make the audience sympathize with the greens more this season. Which is why it makes no sense why the poster who reblogged believes they will make the greens appear worse. They're already making excuses for Aegon raping serving girls, trying to make Alicent be completely innocent of her team's actions, and making Aemond "accidentally" kill Luke.

The show is already so obviously TG, they even aged up Rhaenyra and aged down Alicent to control who the audience sympathizes with. TG stans are just bitter that even the intense white washing can't cover up how in the wrong TG is.

Alicent is totally at least partially to blame for B&C. In the book, she was the head of the green faction and constantly plotted to usurp Rhaenyra, thus causing the war. In both the show and the book, Alicent raised her children to view their nephews as subhuman. She instilled the hatred of them into Aemond long before the Driftmark incident. She's the one who constantly affirmed to them that Aegon is the rightful heir and Rhaenyra is a murderous whore. Alicent bears the blame for what happened to her family just as much as Aegon, Otto, and Aemond.

[maryonaccross]

Hello.

I don't understand the idea that Alicent is a bad mother.

Alicent was angry and horrified that her son was permanently injured and that her husband did absolutely nothing to punish anyone for what was done to his son. In that moment Viserys abandoned him and Aemond considered himself as having only one parent afterwards.

Aemond saw his mother crying and HE had to comfort her, telling her that everything is going to be okay.

Alicent does love her daughter, even through she quite understand Helena at times. She doesn't understand that her daughter has the gift of visions. Maybe Viseys would have realized Helena did but he paid no attention to her.

And Alicent was willing to protect her least favorite child Aegon from an angry dragon. She stared that thing down and let Rhaenys know that she would protect her children with her last breath.

Hey, I absolutely agree and have actually made a post where I touched open how Alicent’s actions as a mother get used against her no matter what she does https://www.tumblr.com/maryonaccross/718469714197790720/alicents-parenting-being-used-against-her-no

As well as another post ages ago where I talked about how comparing Rhaenyra and Alicent as mothers is incredibly stupid seeing as they became mothers in very different ways and at different times in their life (you know, Alicent being a child bride and victim of marital rape and all that).

Apart from that I have recently stumbled across a photo of Aemond’s severed eye on tumblr that was part of the hall of nine scene but was cut out of the final edition of the scene that we got to see in the show (very beneficial for Rhaenyra I might all because trust me, if that had been shown no one would have cared one bit about the little cut Alicent gave her. It utterly pales in comparison to what Aemond when through).

I was thinking about including that image in this post but I honestly think it’s way too graphic so I don’t want to shove it into peoples faces without a warning so go check that out yourself, it’s all over tumblr (I’ll see if I can find a link).

Anyway, after seeing that… let’s just say if I were in Alicent’s place I would have torn Viserys’ eyes out with my bare hands.

She was more than justified in her reaction in that scene but unfortunately the show chooses a narrative that makes her outrage and anger seem out of place by focusing on Rhaenyra, the same way it does throughout the entire show. We never get to see Alicent give birth or spend time with her children in day to day situations the way Rhaenyra does. Sadly many viewers seem to be unable of drawing conclusions and thinking for themselves and don’t pick up on something unless it’s shoved into their face.

[storiumemporium]

Trauma and Repeating Cycles

Full disclosure before I get into this little ramble I've been wanting to make— a lot of the theories and mutterings here are just the culmination of other theories and thought processes I've seen from much cleverer fans around the inets (primarily here and twitter), I would link them but frankly there's so many and I have no idea who would truly be the original coiner of these thoughts 😭😭😭

And also, of course, par the course for this show, very dark themes ahead.

I've just been thinking (probably too much) in depth about how Aegon and Aemond in particular are the final culminations of literal generations of sexual, psychological, and emotional abuse at this point. How Aegon wants so desperately for his mother's approval, and ends up instead a dark mirror of his father. And how Aemond wants to be his own, and instead ends up a dark mirror of his mother.

Alicent

I think it's important to start here with Alicent and just... Take a moment to truly detail and soak in the level of horror this poor girl has been subjected to.

She's the tender age of fourteen (important to keep this in mind later) when she's preyed upon by a man she not only regards as her father figure but is- yes- in fact the same age as her actual father. This man is the father of her at-the-time best friend. And though it's made more overt in the script than in the scenes, we see immediately even before the guillotine drops the fissures within Alicent's mental health. (Biting and chewing at her nails aggressively, for one.)

This is already horrifying enough, it should be enough. But it's exacerbated by the fact that this predatory union is propagated by her actual father, and that both of these men work to sequester her from the only person she would have had for support in this. Rhaenyra. The one with the temper, and the power, to be enraged by this without consequence. Conveniently, the only one who could have hissed and spat her rage at her father with impunity is the one completely erased from her life by them.

And by the time she finds out? It's too late, (none of the blame lies with Rhaenyra for her reaction, as she herself is a teenage girl going through horrific grief and finding out what has been done behind her back) Alicent is already set to be wed to Viserys, to become her step-mother.

This evolves into the first signs of an extremely important trauma response that we see carry down in different ways, much later on in the story. Alicent begins to lean upon duty, upon sacrifice, upon law and order. These things that she swaddles herself in from her youth to protect from having to admit how unfair all of this has been to her. What is leadership without sacrifice? What is being a Queen without suffering? She's too young and too wounded to look at the truth, she needs the structure of pain being a necessity in order to survive the burden of being a mother at fifteen years old. Of being the victim of martial rape at that tender young age.

And through these repeated traumas, she bears four children. The only part of her life worth anything to her, in the end. She's too young for them, too traumatized, too unequipped, but she loves them down to their souls.

And then, in her attempts to remain a good friend to Rhaenyra, in vouching for her, her father is ripped out from under her and she is completely alone with these toddlers. A moment which becomes defining for Alicent.

The moment Otto plants within her the seeds that would turn her- well, into Otto himself. Something she only realizes when it is tragically far too late.

Otto tells her, impresses upon her in a moment of extreme distress, that Rhaenyra will butcher the only good thing that has come of her traumas in life. That she will do anything to maintain the power her son rightfully (at least in the laws of Westeros) should have. She's not as cunning as Otto, and so where he uses cleverness and cunning she uses desperation and strict force (duty, suffering, law, order) to impress upon her firstborn that be must be King to survive.

As we all know, the death knell of Alicent ever believing otherwise first calls at Driftmark. When her son is maimed and Rhaenyra calls for torture (a desperate move to protect her own sons, but alas).

Now, why do I mention all of this that we've seen repeated plentily about Alicent? Because of how it trickles down into her children. Aemond in obvious ways, but less obviously in

Aegon

People have no trouble looking at Aemond and Alicent for the horrors that have been wrought throughout their lives, but not so much for Aegon the Elder, and while I think that's completely fair considering what we see of Aegon on the surface level throughout the season, I'd like to cut deeper into him.

Primarily, that I think Aegon himself has been severely sexually abused and traumatized, and that the character we see by the end of the season is a result of a great deal of very horrific circumstances that the show unfortunately either makes light of or completely undermines.

The mildest of the things I want to bring up is that Aegon's alcoholism very likely stems from that of Viserys- either the man is an alcoholic himself or at least fosters the unhealthy codependence in Aegon. I mean- he's two when Viserys first gives him a drink from Viserys' own cup. From a very young, very very much so still developing mind, I can't imagine what that would do to him.

But the more keen points, Helaena and Flea Bottom.

We all make our cracks about Aegon running to Flea Bottom for safety, that he's passed out drunk in a puddle somewhere or singing shanties in a bar with pirates. But I do want to point out the overwhelming odds that Viserys brought him there, or at least ordered for it to happen.

We even outright hear Daemon state that they used to run the whole of the Street of Silk in their youth. Viserys doesn't deny it, he simply grows hypocritically enraged that Daemon would do so with his daughter. Not his son. His daughter.

Who else in the entire keep would have the power and- frankly- the audacity to take Viserys' eldest son out into the city and to a brothel? Who would even benefit from that happening? And sure, you could say that Aegon simply chose to do it of his own agency. But how is it that a thirteen-fourteen-fifteen year old boy manages to escape what should be the most densely guarded location in the whole of Kings' Landing to go gallivanting off in the most dangerous corners of the city all night long? To end up drunk until sunrise there? At the very least do you think Otto would let his key to the throne go risking death constantly?

Unless, of course, the person to first bring him there has more power than Otto.

Aegon, at least from an age as young as Aemond and Alicent, had been brought by his father or at his father's behest, to a brothel to have sexual relations likely of a similar age gap to that of Aemond with the Madame.

Now, I want to bring up something that I already have a couple of times, something that I think envelops itself into his early experiences at the brothel.

There are two separate scenes, both dismissive and used as humor, that paint an incredibly bleak and tragic picture.

Aegon, age fourteen (the same as Alicent), outright stating that he does not wish to marry Helaena. He doesn't want it, and he words it in a crude and cruel way- as a drunken fourteen year old might be so inclined to do- but the sentiment beneath remains. Aegon is an unwilling participant in this marriage.

Aegon must, for duty, for order, for sacrifice, for law.

Helaena, standing from her chair with a cup in her hands, proclaims that Aegon mostly just leaves her alone, unless he comes back drunk.

On the surface? A joke that embarrasses Aegon and cuts the tension of the scene. Beyond that?

Aegon has already expressed that he did not desire to marry his sister, and now we hear that the only time he touches her is when he's inebriated. This doesn't give the impression of consent.

Which brings why I wrote about Alicent first into this. We see her impress duty upon him so aggressively, that it is his necessity to be King and all things that come with it. This is the product of a trauma response that duty and order and sacrifice and law are the means by which she survives, as well as a long held terror that her children will be butchered by proxy of having a stronger claim to the throne than Rhaenyra.

As a result, Alicent unwittingly subjugates her eldest son to the exact same traumas as Otto did with her. Aegon is robbed of his agency and autonomy in life. Everything about him curated with the intent to take a throne that was never meant to be his, that he does not want. He is forced to marry his sister against his express desires, and he is forced to bed her.

And make no mistake, it's force. Aegon is a notorious man-whore and lecher, he's a regular purveyor of brothels is he not? And yet he requires alcohol to crawl into bed with her, to sleep with her as he regularly and enthusiastically does other women.

I cannot say what this does to Helaena, I would like to think she is either neutral or accepting of this since she mentions what happens so casually and openly to her family. (Otherwise, we would need to get into the topic of a harmful stereotype of the neurodivergent girl being portrayed as having childlike innocence/stupidity and not understanding her own circumstances).

But at the very least, this means that Aegon is forcibly complicit in his own sexual assault, his own rape. Because he has to perform his marital duties, he has to have children by Helaena, it's his duty.

And we see the way this cultivates in Aegon. One of the most common symbols of someone attempting to seize control of their own life is to cut the hair (for a real world example, Britney Spears). It is extremely common symbolism in media, it has meaning in multiple cultures, even TGC himself says that Aegon's hair is short as a rejection of his blood, feeling like the black sheep of the family. I believe he hacks at his own hair in a desperate bid to feel some sort of control or ownership of himself in a world where he otherwise has none. Aegon copes by becoming an alcoholic and developing hypersexuality, he lacks any understanding of boundaries or what would be reasonable in a sexual environment.

It results in Dyana, and it results in Aemond.

Neither of which are forgivable things, neither of which become less horrifying, neither of which become more acceptable. (And we're very blessed to live within an era and society where it is commonly held knowledge that these things are unacceptable and horrific). But with the context that Aegon has been subjected to brothels and sexuality from such an early age- and against his will- it sheds a little light on Sara Hess' statement that Aegon doesn't understand consent, for himself or for others. Even his depressive acceptance of becoming King. He never once mentions that it's unfair to him, he just reaches out like a child, asking do you love me? Wanting to know that if he does this thing being demanded of him, he'll be rewarded with affection for it.

It's a tragic shame that the first season was so short, because we didn't get remotely enough time with the children, I think it would have been valuable to flesh out Aegon's relationship with self actualization and lack of control. That everything he wants and desires is out of his hands, that he must perform, and that even when he does it's not enough because he doesn't do it right. He proclaims that he tries so hard in that scene with Alicent, and that it's never enough, and it sounds comedic because they don't even take the time to show us, or to expand upon the morbid crumbs left behind of how Aegon is in a very predatory situation of his own, and that it's burnt away at his understanding of how the world works.

Which in my mind, plays out why he would bring Aemond to the brothel. In some convoluted, distorted way, I could see it being his attempt to comfort or reach out, Aegon's deeply warped perception of bonding and affection. Their father brought him to one at the same age, no? Aemond needs to take his mind off of what is still a relatively recent trauma, and so Aegon supplies the only way he can, the only way he's equipped to do so. Unwittingly, like Otto upon Alicent and Alicent upon Aegon, Aegon traumatizes Aemond further.

Aemond

Which brings me to Aemond, I think this will be a touch more brief than the others because plenty of people much more eloquent than myself have already expanded upon the tragedy of Aemond and how he turned out the way he did.

Unlike Aegon, Aemond never had the burden of the spotlight, the opposite in fact. By the time Aemond existed, all of Viserys' children by Alicent had fallen out of favor, and so Aemond has never once known the attention or the love of his father. Instead, the only consistent and parental figure Aemond ever had in his life was Alicent. Alicent already favored restriction and piety from a young age, as a result of the things done to her, though they hadn't quite hit their summit yet within the story.

Instead, Aemond is raised nestled into her skirts, resenting Aegon for his behaviors toward him and being ostracized by all else. Helaena was the only other kind figure aside from his own mother in his life, and her absent mind meant that Aemond truly lacked any peers in his life to bond with.

As a result, we have a child that is incredibly isolated, attributing all the cruelties and absences in his life upon his own shortcomings, his need to succeed and match the image of the Targaryen Prince, because then Viserys would have to notice him, because then his nephews and brother would have to respect him. And so he does something incredibly brave, incredibly reckless.

As a result? He's permanently maimed. And who is punished for it? Him, his mother. Not the one who did it, the one who tried to protect him. He watches his mother have a massive outburst and he watches how emotion is a crime, he's witness to the fact that feeling anything at all is sin and makes you the one in the wrong. She's made out to be a shrieking lunatic, that Rhaenyra and her children are the innocents, that Aemond was the criminal in this.

Alicent retreats into herself, that transformation finally hits it's pinnacle, and Aemond chases after it. He learns to bottle himself the exact same way, he learns to suppress everything and to instead focus on violence and physical prowess. But Aegon learned to cope in completely antithetical ways, and so when he attempts to soothe, he further harms. He subjects Aemond to yet another scenario in which he has no control, in which leaving makes him the bad guy- wasting Aegon's coin, disappointing him at least. It completely solidifies Aemond's dislike of things he perceives as unclean or uncouth, and he becomes a violent and barely composed mirror image of his mother.

All in all, these three are on a wheel turning against each other, unwittingly they cultivate harm that drips from one onto the other. Aegon knew their love once upon a time, and so he dives into the unhealthy things laid at his table, he gorges upon them until he needs to vomit and consumes again in the attempt to return to the feeling of love that they gave him so long ago that they will be fleeting, foundational memories and little else, anymore. (Might I remind everybody of that conversation between Jason Lannister and Rhaenyra? "I wonder, Princess. Was your own second nameday as grand as this?" "I honestly don't recall, and neither will he.") Aemond never once knew those feelings, he never knew massive hunts and banquets and celebrations, gargantuan bonfires and fawning nobility. So he shelled in on himself, he became utterly cold and disconnected. The distance was his friend, but now he's completely alone and with absolutely no one to lean on, no one to understand him, and no outlets for emotions that refuse to be bottled up when Lucerys enters his life again. Aegon invites him to the feast, but there's nothing on the plates, and there hasn't been for a very, very long time.

Alicent became a facsimile of what harmed her in the pursuit of protecting her own children, not realizing she was sentencing them to the same fate. Not realizing until the ashes were settling around her and green was as horrifying as red that they'd never stood a chance, at all.

[daeneryseastar]

Honestly, I think the Alicent stans are gleeful about what the show did to Alicent's character because now they can fully indulge in their dislike of Rhaenyra (all Targaryen women because apparently, they're all evil whores who don't fit into the image of a perfect Westerosi Lady), prop up Alicent's "suffering" as something aesthetically pleasing, and fixate on Alicent being a repressed lesbian "betrayed" by her crush and how Rhaenyra is a spoiled brat who abused poor baby Alicent. Don't even get me started on the constant comparisons they make between Sansa Stark and Alicent Hightower. "ALICENT WALKED SO SANSA STARK COULD RUN!" The theme is not only worrisome but nauseating.

that seems to be the case, doesn’t it anon? i think it feels vindicating for them, due to the whole ‘she spent her entire life suffering in the name of duty and honor, she deserves a conciliation prize’ like you mentioned (maybe there’s some deeper trauma that needs to be looked into for some of them idk) as if said 'prize' doesn’t end up costing her her entire family. the way they’ve written her in the show just screams the glorification of abuse. she’s allowed to physically, mentally, and emotionally abuse her own kids in their eyes bc she too was abused, every misdeed she commits is because she was abused, etc. she isn’t allowed to just want her son on the throne despite the set-back it would do to women, she has to have some sort of sob story to make her seem more sympathetic bc women can’t just be against other women without reason (eye roll) or be antagonistic in general without reason. the queer plot-line was also not needed seeing as it was doomed to fail from the start and its existence dives deep into queerbaiting and even racist territory; subsequently, they decided to make the velaryon’s black and then completely sideline laena, rhaenyra’s actual queer love interest, in order to uplift and pair the sad white woman with her instead (which is strange since it seems like most rhaenicent shippers loath rhaenyra, but i digress). she’s not a complex character; she’s one-dimensional, inconsistent, AND the result of hypocritical writers not being able to understand that victimization doesn’t automatically mean interesting.

it also feels like half the time her stan's can’t decide if all of her suffering is bc of the men in her life, or if it’s *somehow* all rhaenyra’s fault that she was put in that position. the show has attempted to switch the power dynamics at play by aging alicent down and rhaenyra up, but it doesn’t work simply bc alicent still has more power than her as queen consort (and still spends around 10 years without otto's influence bullying and ostracizing rhaenyra, which is not how a mother terrified for her children's lives would act in the face of their would-be murderer). furthering that, the lack of critical thinking skills is blatant in this fandom and shows when they attempt to vilify the targaryen's (especially the women, yikes) because they only do so to uplift their own boring favs. show!alicent, and by extension, both media's versions of helaena, are passive characters who conform to and uphold the patriarchy, they’re the perfect type of women for incels and pick-me’s to glomp onto to ‘prove’ they’re not misogynists (see? we DO like women! (only if they’re submissive and don’t fight back ofc)).

the only comparisons between sansa and alicent would be their show characters. only the latter half of got for sansa makes any since comparison wise. she too was a character that was further victimized to make her seem more interesting and righteous in the show writers efforts to make her qitn (and also to further the bullshit mad queen dany plot line). sansa is still quite a compelling character without adding in an unnecessary rape plotline, but if they hadn’t included it the only similarities between these two women are that both are apparently redheads (nope) and bastard-phobic (debatable). that right there is where any and all similarities end. in reality, alicent is the cersei to rhaenyra’s sansa, not the other way around.

the fact that many consumers (especially the women) seem to like the adding of an abuse storyline to these characters is so gross, and really telling of how the media has construed the reaction one should have to gender-based violence (or benevolent sexism). they condemn and pity these characters for what they go through, but in the same breath, praise the writers for adding ‘nuance’ to these women’s stories. worrisome indeed.

[horizon-verizon]

“You shouldn’t watch HOTD from a modern perspective!!!”

While I think this is a stupid ass argument because I am not a peasant down in Flea Bottom… but fine I’ll bite.

Here are some things you can’t get mad about since we should watch from a “medieval POV”:

Alicent’s marriage

Alicent was not a child bride in Westeros standards. The legal age of majority in the Seven Kingdoms is considered to be sixteen years of age. She was of marrying age. Laena even makes a comment about how she wouldn’t have to lay with Viserys until she turned 14. Alicent was either the same age as Rhaenyra (whom was 14 in episode 1) or older so she was old enough to be married and therefore was not a child bride. Female characters such as Aemma, Helaena, Rhaella, Rohanne Webber, or Genna Lannister were younger than Alicent when they were married off.

Viserys/Alicent marital rape

Doesn’t exist. Marital rape wasn’t even considered a “crime” in all 50 states until 1993 (which wtf is up with that ?) so you cannot call Alicent a victim of assault when that assault doesn’t even exist or isn’t even acknowledge as assault.

Viserys “parental neglect”

No king (or really any lord for that matter) in medieval times actually spent time with his children. It was rare that royal children even got to spend time with their parents.

Show!Alicent was like 15 when she married Viserys AND the age of marriage can be any age as soon as a girl gets her period. Even 15, 14, 13, etc. 16 is for boys, the time they can take leadership of a house, property, etc in his own name. Nothing to do with marriage, even if it is the case of a girl being heir, she is not eligible to be an "official" head until she is 16, which is why Rhaenyra is 17 before she actually moves into Dragonstone and she is 16 when she becomes officially and takes the title of the "Princess of Dragonstone".

Kings of Westeros and real EU spent an embarrassingly amount of time with their kids. Esp in comparison to his wife/Queen Consort. Viserys told tales of Jaehaerys to his grandkids often. Jaehaerys was said to spend time with his kids, but the expected amount of time for a busy male ruler. The royal couple--both husband and wife--were expected to not really spend the amount of time we consider necessary bc they were expected to look over their duties and some had tutors, nurses, etc. who spent way more time with the kids than them. The higher class you went, the less time you spent one on one with the kids.

So, yeah. That argument is pretty dumb. There's a society out there where grown men imbue young boys with "spirit" so they become consummate warriors....it exists today. In the modern world. Look it up, and yes it is what you think it is. What makes a thing bad is the effect it has, which could be layered and nuanced according to circumstances but not always. Best not to slather that excuse as soon as you see something up; best to examine what you see. And sometimes it's just very obvious.

[lizzie-queenofmeigas]

Alicent’s stans gotta be the most dimwitted people on ASOIAF fandom, they see their fave character aged down to a powerless child bride and be abused by 50 years old Viserys but they praised it as good writing to make her complex, because they know that abuse is her only character trait, her entire personality. Wihtout abuse, she has absolutely nothing.

Even Sansa’ stans still had critical skills and massively called out D&D when they give Sansa Jeyne Poole’ storyline. Imagine being dumber, and more illiterate & misogynistic than a Sansa stan ?? So embarassing.

The fact that they praise the writing for making Alicent a victim of rape is disgusting.

[nrilliree]

 I didn't see the interviews and all for season 1, but doesn't it seem like Rhaenyra is brought down and I don't know kind of insulted in some of them. It's great the actors are friends but Alicent is genuinely not a good person, show or book. If the show writers wanted a wlw show that bad, why not write an original story.

It's kind of weird, the EW recap interview, saying vaemond is not entirely wrong, blaming Rhaenyra and Daemon for the eye accident, that they were shagging, Alicent is not blamed for anything actually, talking about Laena as an afterthought. Then there was the one interview, where it was said about rhaenyra she just lies. If these are jokes, or meant to be funny, they are not, and are in very poor taste.

 Alicent is pillar of truth? Marrying viserys, meeting him behind her friend’s back, whatever crap she had going on with larys, making aegon king, literal poisoning her kids against rhaenyra. List is endless. The whole EW promo, trailer, alicent holds love for enemy, yeah, right. But showing the trailer rhaenyra questioning daemon, you can bet he will say in show, its because I do see you as my queen and ruler I am doing this, going to harrenhall, that’s the theory I saw that he is going there and rhaenyra doesn’t want him to.

 It is Corlys' inheritance, not his greedy brother’s. His wish, who he wants to make heir. Reminds me of Knives Out, the man gave everything to his nurse and family got upset. But we as viewers weren't defending the family, in HOTD it's the opposite. At least Luceyrs has Velaryon blood if TG fans are being very cruel and horrid. Targs and Velaryons married for generations. Corlys, Viserys, the king, Laenor acknowledge him, not even anyone else cared except for miss alicent and her greens.

Also people celebrating the assumed Daemon cheating scene, uh. Why do people hate Aegon and like Alys when this vile woman very much likely ra**d, enchant Aemond, and it's likely being presumed she is doing the same with Daemon. She is a rapist too like aegon. Would love to see Daemon choking her. Cause she is just bad, it would be deserved instead of the unnecessary daemyra one. I can't stand her character. Would actually make sense with book that Daemon did not fall for her tricks. Not to mention Aemond is already a victim of sexual assault in show, courtesy of aegon.

The way we got Aemond's weepy shot in trailer, he is not gonna force anybody, least of all the wannabe witch, he is 16 according to show. His derogatory remarks about rhaenyra in books, for bastards, he hates them, alys is all of that, way older than rhaenyra or even alicent.

 if he is forcing people, there were other women too there. And she is not good looking, please, not looking your age doesn’t mean a person is good looking, that’s just her fans delusions. Again funny fact, rhaenyra is beautiful, the realm’s delight, but all I see is whining from certain fans about why they didn’t make her fat, being vile about the actors playing rhaenyra who are good looking when alicent’s whole story is opposite of what she is.

Some Hotd fans are  strange. They are like, nah, its good aemond was enchanted, raped cause he is villain. Now the daemon haters are like, oh goody, he’ll be assaulted by alys. Why are they rooting for a rapist? Or maybe it shouldn’t be shocking since people love aegon 2. Ra**st whether a man or woman is a monster in my eyes.

Okay, I'm curious about one thing. How could Daemon be blamed for the eye accident? How? That he didn't force his grieving daughter to try to bond with the dragon that burned her mother alive? I guess that's a good thing after all…? Or that he had sex with Rhaenyra? And if he didn't do it and went to sleep, would he be guilty too? Because he was supposed to stand and plinch Vhagar? Or children? What should Criston do? Or Alicent, because it was her son who escaped to the dragon :P?

And...

"Alicent is pillar of truth"

"Alicent is a pillar of truth"

"ALICENT is a pillar of TRUTH"

I died. I just died. Guys, this is the funniest thing I've read today :D Really. I'm not lying, I choked up when I read this. Please tell me this isn't true and someone didn't say it seriously. I'm begging you.

I'm officially dead.

[atopvisenyashill]

I think a couple of the reasons we didn't see Helaena's birth is that a) it's not plot relevant. All other births either introduce a new status quo or major plot point (i.e Rhaenyra giving birth to Joffrey, as opposed to Jace - that way we can time jump and have all three kids already born but the notion of them being illegitimate is still introduced) or they end in death (Laena, Aemma, Baelon, Visenya).

And then another reason could simply be the optics of having Emily act out a birth scene. Ironic, given all the birth scenes are horrific, but this is a character introduced when she was 14. I don't think she could be more than 16 or 17 when she had Helaena. I can see why they shied away from it, or why it may never have even been a consideration to show it.

Well my argument here is that this whole show is about child birth and the way it affects The Family Unit and if we are establishing rival Family Units, we must include the basis of how the family unit is established, which is childbirth (in the context of feudal systems anyway). This show has a long, drawn out birthing scene with a lot of commentary over how dangerous and violent labor is and how dangerously violent our society treats new mothers with the birth scenes of Aemma, Laena, and Rhaenyra’s two (2) scenes, and these mark the beginning, middle, and end of the season, so it is an odd, frustrating exclusion to not at least attempt to include Alicent starting her labor and to straight up never see Helaena even pregnant at all. And when I said “have the plot happen while Rhaenyra is pregnant” you can easily do that with Alicent imo - if Helaena isn’t relevant enough (though I would argue Alicent birthing a Valyrian daughter is in fact VERY relevant to the status quo, it’s why Helaena is married off at only 13), we can easily futz with the timeline to include Aemond or Daeron’s birth around Rhaenyra’s wedding.

As for the second one……..okay idk how to phrase this without sounding like a sociopath here but if they were worried about “how are audiences going to react to Emily Carrey who is only 17/18 having a baby” my response is git gud ryan!!!!! they’re clearly trying to explore a concept they completely axed in the original, which is Structural Patriarchy And The Pedophilic Sexualization Of Young Girls in hotd, which was why they a) casted milly who was like 20 and has a baby face and b) aged down and casted Emily, who was roughly the same age as Alicent after the first time jump. And if you’re going to explore those themes, you have to EXPLORE those themes and that includes how (in show) Alicent and Helaena are not even of age by THEIR standards when they marry and give birth the first time, and Rhaenyra is massively sexualized and groomed by most of the men around her from the age of like 12 until she’s married at 17. This is the exact same violence that is enacted against Aemma being enacted on Alicent, and I think a more direct parallel of “yes Viserys forcing Alicent to have his kid at 15 is as god awful as Viserys cutting Aemma open” you NEED to have Alicent give birth with the younger actor and make the audience SQUIRM with discomfort, the same way they do when they have baby Laena parrot that stuff about giving Viserys strong sons, and Rhaenys say explicitly that she hates what’s happening.

I get the issue surrounding “emily was very young on set” but a) that’s why this whole series should have been animated and b) you can do this without even showing Alicent too much. One point of criticism I tend to have for another Historical Fantasy Show (Outlander, no one laugh at me, it’s a good fucking show and Catriona has been ROBBED of recognition for it) is how often they just throw in graphic ass rape scenes where I don’t feel it’s necessary but a point i give them credit is that when they got pushback about how often we are seeing People Straight Up Raped On Screen they got creative with how they filmed those scenes.

(spoilers obviously) but for the rape scene involving Brianna, where she enters a room attempting to get her ring back, and is raped as “payment” for it by Bonnett, the camera has Bonnett close the door so all we see is the people outside listening to Brianna scream. Some of them look uncomfortable. Some of them look at the door but do nothing. One woman trips over Bonnett’s boots outside the door and fixes them. The door opens and you just see Brianna in shock, getting her things, and leaving, but you otherwise see Nothing. The scene after that involves Claire being kidnapped from her home and gang raped over the span of a day or two, before being rescued by her family. Every time the rape starts up again, Claire enters a fantasy in her mind. She’s in the present day (in canon she lives in 1700s America, but she came from the 60s) and the family she’s made in the past are at a celebration with her, dressed in the present day. Characters that have died are there and happy. Her adopted son sits next to her biological daughter. The scene shifts and Claire is in her 1700s clothes in her 1960s house with Jamie, her husband, and she’s crying and he cups her cheek and whispers “it’s just the two of us now.” The rape scene ends. Later, as she’s struggling to deal with it, we see the bruises on her body because she is naked in bed with Jamie, wanting to be intimate but scared of sex, and he cradles her and says “you’re a strong thing” as the camera lets us see the damage done to her.

So, you can have it there without us seeing it. You can have Alicent be afraid as her contractions start. Viserys somewhere else not giving a shit. Rhaenyra outside the room wanting to comfort Alicent but not enough to swallow her pride. Otto more worried about the baby and quipping to Rhaenyra than he is about Alicent. Alicent laying in bed, upset, shaking, unable to hold her baby just yet. There’s a lot of freedom to get creative when you’re working with a visual medium!

[alicentflorent]

That’s the exact flavor that a lot of Rhaenicents like. Alicent is nothing if she is not begging at Rhaenyra’s feet her being her biggest cheerleader. They don’t actually care about our the character otherwise. They’ve been waiting for Rhaenyra to take Kings landing just they can see Alicent actually on her knees begging her for mercy.

Ultimately most of the blame goes to the writers who turned Alicent into a punching bag and their sole device to project lessons of karma, misogyny and hypocrisy on and not any of the more deserving characters. As proven by the new write up of viserys’s character this season. How do you intentionally show us that he is not only an awful father, but husband and king as well. Have multiple characters think this and completely rewrite history the next season about a man who said “Look me in the eyes” to his 10 year old that literally fucking lost his eye minutes ago. How do you say Alicent had a loving marriage when she dreaded visiting this man at night, went catatonic underneath him and he knows she doesn’t like it, knows she’s absent mentally and he still forces her to look at him while he rapes her?

The writers constant need to put Alicent into her place and then knock her down a few more pegs still. At this point it’s gratuitous and heavy handed. We get it, Alicent is not the right kind of woman. She can’t right a dragon, fight with a sword or shoot a bow. She doesn’t secretly wish she were a knight or a man. She’s not a guys girl. Therefore we shouldn’t root for her. We get it, we got it season 1 pre time skip that saw a completely innocent girl aged 14-18 whose worst crime at the time was gossip, be pimped out by her own father. Married to an old and ailing king who would never love or respect her. Endure his nightly rapes and become a mother at 15 and would spend most of the next 5 years pregnant who would never love his children. Show her support to her ex best friend who has ignored and treated her with hostility for 3 years and be laughed at and treated like an outsider by her husband and his gross child grooming brother who deserves nothing but the worse.

Daemon gets a redemption arc which will only fuel the Stans baby girlification of him while not only will team black hate Alicent, now a lot of team green hate her too. Opening her AND Olivia up for more misogyny and hate.

Those “take all of their misery and give it to______” memes are popular in this fandom but the writers really took that to heart. They take everyone’s misery and gives it to Alicent. Take an absolutely horrible character, take the horrible shit that they do and pay it back to Alicent 10 fold.

Take the worst man you know- a murderer, a child groomer, a proud misogynist, a woman beater. Have this man be directly responsible for Alicent’s 4 year old Grandson’s murder but make it Alicent’s fault for having sex with the man she’s had feelings for since she was 14 years old. She has this consensual, pleasurable sexual relationship- her first consensual relationship with this man who is devoted to her. A sexual abuse victim of 2 men finally feels comfortable enough with a man that she has sex with him with no clothes on, in the daylight and at night- sometimes in the same day. Shes not going away in her head during. She’s not being blackmailed. It’s not without religious guilt but it’s something she wants, she even initiates and takes lead.

They take this relationship, these consensual encounters with the man who she considers her “Lover” and they flip it on them, on her. They completely change the scene from its book counterpart and make it her fault because she was being a “whore” and a “hypocrite”. She was having sex while her Grandson was being murdered- an event she had no idea that was going to happen. It’s framed in a way that it’s her fault. Not Daemon’s, not B & C’s, not Aemond’s, not Viserys for planting the seeds for 2 decades- longer than that when you consider all the times we welcomed Daemon back at court after doing things like grooming his daughter and murdering his wife (and people say Alicent covered up for Aegon? What would they expect to happen when Daemon gets away with everything including murder? When Ironrod is the master of laws and can barely muster up respect for Alicent, wtf do TB think he would’ve done with Aegon? Castrated? The wall? Lmao, Alicent’s slapping, yelling at him and attempted disowning is more of a punishment than those men would give to Prince Aegon Targaryen who they were all planning a usurpation for)

It’s something Alicent needs to feel guilty for while the responsible parties are either unaffected or given scenes to make them sympathetic or a redemption journey. They keep showing that damn dog but Jaehaerys has become he who shan’t be mentioned.

Helaena has to forgive her mother who apparently nicked one of those glass candles from the Hightower as a small child, taught herself how to use it with that Hightower sorcery, used it to look into the future and saw when, where and how blood and cheese would take place but just decided not to stop it because she had a dick appointment.

Yet she’s coming to Daemon in his 3 eyed Raven dreams to tell him that he knows the role he has to play in saving the world- when he said a few episodes that he would walk away from his family if they loss. He also sent the Blackwoods to rape and pillage the Brackens and other Riverland families. Apparently he is deserving of redemption, for the fans to go “See, he never wanted to rule! He just wanted his family’s love and approval!” “He is in full support of Rhaenyra”

You know who else wanted her family’s love and approval- anybody’s love that she didn’t have to give parts of herself away for? This mildly bitchy woman who is actually one of the softest characters in the series, Alicent fucking Hightower. After her life ended at 14 years old, she’s spent the last 20 years in misery, she’s given all of herself to everyone else. Surely she has redeemed herself for the crime of not being the one to have Aemma sliced open and marrying her daughter’s 14 year old friend. She is the reason that Rhaenyra wasn’t caught off guard and murdered at the order of her father and council. Surely after losing for so long, she’ll get a win and the love she never had but nope, she is never going to get it.

Instead she gives up on her family aside from her daughter and granddaughter (and honestly, I can’t entirely blame her.) instead of just leaving, finding the son she saved and telling him to bow out. She goes to Rhaenyra for no logical reason at all, hands Rhaenyra the castle AND most of the people she loves on a silver platter and gets nothing in return but more humiliation, called a whore again, no guarantee of safety for her daughter, granddaughter or innocent youngest son and a clown nose.

Alicent is smarter than this! Or she was.

The people in the writer’s room hate her so much and that’s why they could never make me hate her.

You’ve summed everything up perfectly! Great point about daemon being given a redemption arc while Alicent is punished by the narrative for not fitting Condal and Hess’ idea of an ideal woman which is super problematic. Good comparison on Alicent covering up Diana’s rape vs Viserys and to a lesser extent, adult Rhaenyra covering up all of daemon’s crimes including Rhea Royce’s murder (and sitting at the table with viserys as he mocked rhea’s family and threatened to take their claim) and Rhaenyra presumably won’t hold him accountable or acknowledge the raping and pillaging daemon arranged in her name and forgive him for also murdering a 4 year old in her name. Alicent was definitely wrong for keeping dyana quiet and not doing more to help her but none of those men on the council including Otto would have done anything to Aegon over the rape. Otto might’ve yelled at him in I’m mad that your choice of victim is speaking out not that you’ve done this terrible thing kind of way. The only time daemon was held accountable was when the riverlords demanded justice for the war crimes and Oscar Tully, a child, ordered daemon to execute the Blackwood who committed those crimes on daemons orders (there’s also a reason we didn’t see the children being killed and women being raped, it’s because it would be harder to view daemon as redeemable just like seeing Aegon’s traumatised, named victim has much more of an impact than if we just heard Erryk say that Aegon sexually assaults serving girls)

Back to Alicent, they can never make me hate her.. if they think a woman needs to be humbled and revert back to her teenage self after a season of what felt like one long humiliation ritual, sex scenes that didn’t make the Final Cut and made Olivia feel uncomfortable and instead of ending all of this in some kind of catharsis for Alicent they have beg for forgiveness and mercy from the other female lead who will call her a whore and a hypocrite to appease fans who have been saying Alicent is a hypocritical judgmental whore who needs to be put in her placefor day one. This meeting with Rhaenyra will lead to the deaths of every single person Alicent loves (her sons, including innocent daeron, her daughter who she spent the season trying to protect, her father, her lover, her brother who is also innocent as in he hasn’t been involved in any of the usurper politics and only seemed to join this war out of duty) and I’m sure they’ll constantly remind the audience that Alicent took down team green and Rhaenyra’s hands will conviently stay relatively clean.

[rhaenyratargayen]

rewatching hotd and the larys foot fetish plot with alicent is literally so gross, stupid and unnecessary to the plot. like they already aged her down so she married viserys as a child bride and was raped for the first several years of her marriage, but that’s only the beginning because even once she’s queen she is manipulated and taken advantage of by men claiming to protect and aid her. It’s just tired honestly, it’s hard to watch and it just makes me feel sick. I don’t know how people can watch this show and not see alicent as a victim. people will watch episode 7 and run with the thought that alicent is the villain and completely disregard the entire rest of the show where she is continuously manipulated. because even though she is the queen she is still a woman, being queen isn’t even enough to protect her because the men who abuse her are the same men who swear they’re protecting her.

[bbygirl-aemond]

If you consider viserys a creep, then I hope you realize Daemon is also one just slightly less so, laena was young when daemon married her and rhaenyra was even younger when to took her too a brothel and kissed her, plus he asked for her hand in marriage, he would have no problem sleeping with rhaenyra if viserys had agreed to marry them. Daemon just has pretty privilege, so people aren't willing to see that his more problematic than viserys

CW for CSA, grooming mentions

Okay so first of all, let me remind everyone that my posts that only talk about Viserys shouldn't be taken to mean anything about completely unrelated characters like Daemon. Now, this post isn't going to be an apology for Daemon, and it shouldn't be taken to excuse his actions. But I will be making the argument that what he's done isn't as bad as what Viserys has done.

In the books, Laena is twenty-three years old when she and Daemon meet for the first time and get married. There's still obviously an age gap, and I personally hate age gaps in real life, but Laena's very much a grown woman here, even by modern standards.

And I've discussed before here that I very much DO think Daemon's treatment of younger Rhaenyra is problematic. As for adult Daemyra, there are a few things that I think are important here:

During the brothel scene, even though Rhaenyra is acting willing, Daemon doesn't have sex with her. Also, Rhaenyra is seventeen. Obviously we rightfully take issue with this, but by Westerosi standards she is technically capable of consent. Again, we know this shouldn't be the case and it doesn't excuse Daemon's actions, but it does provide context for them.

I could make a whole separate post about how Daemon's interest in Rhaenyra as a child wasn't about her, but was entirely about her being an extension of Viserys. Daemon doesn't genuinely want Rhaenyra when he proposes to wed her; he's feeling rejected by Viserys and is trying to get close to him in the only way he knows how.

Daemon then distances himself physically from Rhaenyra, and explicitly says this is because she was a "child," implying that he didn't feel it was right for them to have a relationship and felt that he needed to remove himself from the situation to allow her to grow by herself.

When Daemon and Rhaenyra DO start a relationship, it is when Rhaenyra is twenty-seven years old and unquestionably an adult. And it starts on Rhaenyra's terms. Now, this isn't fully okay, because we know that their dynamics when Rhaenyra was younger impact what she wants as an adult. But I do think this is still significant when comparing him to Viserys.

Finally, Daemon's relationship with Rhaenyra is about as healthy as a Targaryen relationship can get. Rhaenyra maintains the upper hand in every single scene with him-- even in the choking scene, she laughs in his face and he is ultimately rendered impotent in the face of her confidence. Daemon unquestioningly supports Rhaenyra's decision-making skills and her power as a ruler. When she asks him to do something, even if he clearly doesn't want to do it, he always backs down. Daemon obeys Rhaenyra at every turn, never the other way around.

Daemon's relationship with Rhaenyra is obviously still problematic, and Emma D'Arcy has said it counts as grooming, and I won't argue against this because I agree. I also don't think Daemyra should ever be used to excuse these dynamics in real life, ever. But it's not quite comparable to what Viserys did with Aemma and Alicent, for all the reasons outlined above.

TLDR: Viserys raped a 13-year-old girl and a 15-year-old girl, the latter of whom he saw as a daughter. His relationships with both of his wives involved mistreating them and sacrificing their physical safety, comfort, and wishes for his own whims.

Daemon had sex with a 23-year-old woman and a 27-year-old woman, the latter of whom he saw as a niece. His consummated marriages were amicable and he always allowed his wives autonomy, even at the detriment of his own personal desires. You can see how these two things aren't 100% the same, yes?

[fearthhereaper]

not to mention that f&b is all about historiography and the reliability of resources. mushroom’s perspective is often perverted and the writing of aegon mirrors his writing of daemon and Rhaenyra, pointing to it likely being evidence of mushrooms disgusting desire for underage girls (and also grrm’s tendency to include way more rape of children than artistically necessary in supposedly being soooo against it). Mushroom was not in Kings Landing when Aegon supposedly did this, making his account less reliable. Ultimately, we can’t know for certain if aegon did it (I lean towards not believing it), but at least we can all agree on the immorality of it. In the show, it really does a disservice to the story telling by adding more sexual assault of women (we already had that shot of Viserys and Alicent) and completely stripping the civil war of any nuance. People do not want to support a canonical rapist, therefore discussions of the dance are shut down on the basis of this black and white morality which has been imposed by the writers decision. It’s especially strange when the show canonically shows daemon to also be a rapist, yet we don’t get a scene of the young virgins he buys crying.

this! This! THIS!

Everything said is the same way I feel about the subject.

As much as I hate that they use mushroom's version of the stories I can't say that they aren't allowed to, it's just the selectiveness of using it that bothers me.

I sure hope that grrm was properly criticized for making every character way too underage and unnecessarily so. I would never dare say that an author supports everything they write about but I read somewhere (it might be untrue) that he made Daenaera Velaryon so young because it was "unrealistic" to him that she could have 5 kids past a certain age (mind you I believe the post said past 25 years of age). So that really irked me, and made me question his choices a bit more. But then again, can't judge an author based on what they write because that would be like accusing Vladimir Nabokov of being a pedophile for writing "Lolita"

I hate when shows use rape as a sort of gotcha-ya moment. One that especially bothers me is Larys because that scene with Alicent was so stupid and ridiculous, it was just there for more shock value because women suffering to them is just that - a shock value. That scene of Viserys and Alicent at least had a purpose of making the audience see that she doesn't want him and that she's being maritally raped.

They made Corlys and Rhaenys be close in age, when it's a well-known fact that she was 16 and he was 20years older when they married, just to make him a better man.

Daemon is a grooming child predator yet the show glosses over it while Aegon's rape of Dyana will probably be expanded (if the rumors about Dyana's actress being in s2 are true)

So once again, did they simply just have to make Aegon a rapist? It just screams "we want to make sure you are all rooting for who we want you to."