#Good Omens 2 discussion

[iamnotcreativeijustplayitontv]

Notes regarding 229401

Just a quick note: I realize this post is coming much later than planned, so I apologize for that. It's also a little long, but there are multiple parts. This post will very likely get edited in the future, but if I don't post it now, I may not ever.

After the initial "Before the Beginning" part of S 2 E 1, Good Omens 2 opens with Aziraphale receiving a note from his record-shop tenant, Maggie, owner of The Small Back Room.

The note is written on an invoice slip, and we see the number printed in red in the upper right-hand corner is 229401. We know details in this show are demonstrated/indicated for a reason, so I decided to do some Internet-digging. I'm sure these are reaches, but it was fun, so here it goes.

(found here, posted by HereBecauseOfGoodOmens)

Another note: this post (other than the tartan bit later) is specifically about 229401, not the note itself. There may be more about that in a future post, but I'm not sure yet.

Since the invoice number is the only part of the page in red compared to the rest in greens/blues on a white background, I Googled the number to see what I could find.

One result was this interestingly-shaped shelf support:

which looks a bit like the design on Crowley's tie in the 1941 minisode:

(GIF by gothamstreetcat)

I also checked hex codes, and got this interesting, grassy shade of green:

Comparing the color on my laptop screen to the color on my TV while watching, it most looked like the cemetery grass in S 2 E 3 when Aziraphale calls the bookshop from the stranger's mobile phone, but doesn't match when I compare them both on my laptop screen. It is also similar to various greens from The Scottish Register of Tartan's PDF of Tartan Register Colour shades, but it also seems so specifically familiar and I just can't quite place it.

EXTRA-REACHING SIDE NOTE: CLAN MACDONALD TARTAN COLORS In that same scene, right before Crowley answers the ringing phone, we see him toss a stack of books he had been carrying. The books were varying shades of blue, green, and red. We know that David Tennant is proud of his Scottish heritage, so out of pure curiosity, I did some Googling and found this, "the oldest recorded version of the clan sett" (it says it is dated 01/01/1819, prior to the launch of The Scottish Register of Tartans), the same colors:

Also also, I couldn't make out the title or the rest of the names on the book, but the second book from the top of the stack definitely says "David" on it.

Yes, I do know that his family name was McDonald and not MacDonald, but when I first did the search, this is what it showed me. It's probably (definitely) a reach, but hey, it was fun!

And finally, I am completely new to numerology, but added the digits together and got 18, so here's some numerology related to 18. I realize it is written to sound applicable in general, like horoscopes, but why not go for it?

According to affinitynumerology.com:

The numerology essence of the number 18 has to do with humanitarianism, independence, and building something of lasting benefit. The underlying idea of the essence of the number 18 is the welfare of humanity. 18 is tolerant and compassionate, mixing easily with others, including planning and executing projects, yet tends to do the actions of what it considers the most important either by itself or as the leader — at its own determination.

Could this possibly be representative of Aziraphale going to Heaven at the end of S 2? Maybe it would have something to do with action he takes regarding the Second Coming.

According to numerologistpro.com:

In imbalance, the number 18 is conflicted, angry, choleric, and fanatic. Many with 18/9 energy seem happy, light-hearted, and open on the surface, but there is nothing light about the inner life of 18/9. There is a lot of guilt, shame, fear, and insecurity. For example, there can be a lot of internal conflict with a shifting attraction and repulsion to money and power. In balance, the number 18 has energy, focus, willpower, and drive.

This can be applied to Aziraphale, as well, especially as he gets better at lying over time and in S 2 E 6 after he finds out that he will be leading the Second Coming. It will be interesting to see what happens with Aziraphale as Supreme Archangel, having to try to balance his responsibilities/duties to humanity, Heaven, and of course Crowley.

[sentientsky]

guess who’s been wading thru the archives again

[neil-gaiman]

So I thought I'd actually write something as a starting point for ways to watch and discuss Good Omens 2.

To be honest, if I had my druthers, Good Omens 2 would be released daily or weekly. There are mysteries and things to work out and speculate upon that build episode by episode. There are things to think about before the next episode begins.

I do not have my druthers* and when Good Omens 2 drops on the 28th it will drop all at once. Which is good news for people who want to binge and don't want to talk about it until the end.

But there will be people who won't want to go online and have people who watched the whole thing spoil or discuss or reveal. There will be people who will watch Episode 1 and puzzle and hypothesize and imagine. And then, when they are ready, watch Episode 2, and ponder and suppose and so on.

So I'd suggest that the G02 fandom think about ways to be able to discuss episodes up to a certain point. That there's an episode 1 group, and episode 2 and so on, with spoiler warnings, taking you through episode 6, by the end of which most of your questions will have been answered.

I'm throwing this out in a post for people to discuss, come up with suggestion, ignore or reject. There may be ways to make it work, there may not.

Mostly I want people to be able to talk and guess and trade their ideas without being squashed by those who have seen it and without squashing people who are not up to that point.

*If the Writers Strike had not happened it's possible that my suggestion that we drop the episodes daily over 6 days might actually have been acted upon. But it did and it wasn't.

[crawley-fell]

[heyimcelery]

GO2 SPOILERS

ok I know everyone is still freaking out over the kiss but theres like 5 and 3/4 episodes worth in the rest of the season that have barely been touched.

Forget the kiss for a moment so we can talk about Crowley mentioning Alpha Centauri when the LOVERS Gabe and Bee needed somewhere to go

Crowley mentions that it's a place he'd always like to go whilst also implying to aziraphale (however intentionally) that he thinks it's a great place for LOVERS to run off together

And he had asked AZIRAPHALE to GO WITH HIM to this place only a few years ago

You can see it on his face, aziraphale doesn't notice at first but then it clicks for him and he DOUBLE TAKES

and don't get me started in the expression he gives. Just so surprised and hopeful as if to say "did you really imply what I think you did"

He WANTS it to be true or else he wouldn't have noticed and he's clearly a bit unsure and hesitant but he he's HOPEFUL

It's straight up an overlooked almost fanfic "oh OH" type of moment.

These are the things we need to be talking about now guys. We've had a day to cope over the finale, it's about time we ramble on about other cute moments too

[fellthemarvelous]

Holy forking shirtballs

I'm choosing violence today. I started this on Twitter, but I'm going to finish my thoughts here like I always do.

But what really blows my mind the most is the way that people look at Aziraphale's "choice" at the end, as if he had one to fucking begin with.

I'm sorry, but Aziraphale knows how messed up Heaven is. He told The Metatron, more than once, that he did not want to go back to Heaven! We can debate what each of us means by "choice" all night because my "choice" and your "choice" might be two different concepts. He could have been strong armed by The Metatron or he could have looked at where things were headed and realized he had no choice but to intervene himself.

You need to ask yourself what Aziraphale has a moral imperative to do.

What do we owe to each other?

Seriously, if you have not watched The Good Place, I recommend you go and watch it, because it absolutely shaped how I've viewed Good Omens 2 since its release.

My levels of frustration with the bad faith mischaracterizations of Aziraphale are off the charts. If you are blaming him for everything, implying that he should have to grovel and that Crowley has a right to hurt him back, you have missed the point of Good Omens entirely.

I defend Aziraphale, but I don't think one of them is more right or wrong than the other. They're equals. They're a group of the two of them, acting and reacting to each other throughout history. They're Alpha Centauri.

I cannot even begin to explain how fucking devastated I felt when Crowley said these words, knowing he was fighting a losing battle. What he said took a lot of courage because he's finally admitting something they've both been too scared to publicly define for 6,000 years. Crowley has had to spend so long with a rough outer shell because he fell and had to hide all of his softness.

The look on his face was one of pure joy when he created that nebula, but I think the fact that he got to share that moment with Aziraphale is what has always stuck with him.

So yeah, seeing Crowley with a broken heart at the end of "Every Day" was sad for me as well.

My brain still lives here!!

But Neil has said that Good Omens 3 is not quiet, gentle, or romantic. I imagine it's going to be more like the the first season in which they are not central to the plot. GO2 will help us make sense of how they ended up where they are when we see the bigger picture with all the other major players involved with GO3.

Aziraphale was still a soldier and accidentally got himself discorporated in his own magic circle in season one. He had a platoon waiting on him to start Armageddon, and he deserted them to go save the world with Crowley instead. Aziraphale is a deserter. I need everyone to remember that. He yeeted himself out of Heaven and sought out Crowley before even locating a body just to warn him about what was happening so they could try to save the world together.

I can't help but think of 1941 and that magician who had been arrested for being a deserter.

Aziraphale disobeyed orders. That took courage but it branded him as a traitor against Heaven. They tried to destroy him for it the same way Hell tried to destroy Crowley for his part in stopping the war.

Aziraphale and Job are the only characters we have seen interacting with God directly. Aziraphale has spoken to God before and he is determined to do so again.

Aziraphale knows Heaven is flawed, but he also knows it's supposed to be good. He wants it to be good. He does not like the way the system works and he wants to make a difference. (And I'm pretty sure he's also determined to talk to God without being intercepted by The Metatron.)

Since when is that a bad thing? I don't get it. And I've had this discussion before.

If you need to change the system by burning the old one to the ground, it's still change, and we don't know what Aziraphale has planned.

It seems to me that people just want to see Aziraphale fail because it would punish him for returning to Heaven instead of running off with Crowley.

Some of y'all take everything Aziraphale says or does and twist those things into malicious anti-Crowley actions because you think the only reason Aziraphale exists is to make Crowley happy, and if he isn't thinking only about Crowley then he's doing something wrong.

Aziraphale does not exist as a plot device to further Crowley's character. They come as a pair. They've been learning from each other for 6,000 years. Crowley challenges Aziraphale just as much as Aziraphale challenges him.

You can be mad at Aziraphale all you want, but villainizing him is gross. Defending Crowley does not mean you have to tear down and mischaracterize Aziraphale anymore than defending Aziraphale means you have to tear down Crowley (but I don't see that happen on nearly the same level it happens to Aziraphale). Stop painting Aziraphale as an abusive partner, for fuck sake.

Aziraphale knows there are flaws in the system. He wants to make a difference, and since he has seen that Gabriel can change, then maybe the whole system can. He has to at least try, and if he can succeed then maybe he and Crowley can stop hiding and finally be together without having to look over their shoulders all the time.

Why is that a bad thing? He's just as protective of Crowley as Crowley is of him!

But don't forget that Aziraphale's wing was covering Adam and Eve too. As much as a wants to protect Crowley, he has a moral imperative to keep humanity safe as well.

He sent Adam and Eve into the unknown with a flaming sword so they could protect themselves.

As much as he wants to be with Crowley, there are 8 billion people on Earth heading toward the Second Coming and Judgment Day. They'll work together to fight alongside humanity in the end. Aziraphale should not have to humiliate himself just to earn Crowley's forgiveness. That's a rancid notion.

The Resurrectionist was a whole ass moral dilemma for Aziraphale, which is why I brought up The Good Place earlier, but that's a post for a different time.

Aziraphale has his own motivations and they're just as important as Crowley's, and they don't have to be chalked up to Aziraphale being the bad guy. Weird, I know, but shades of grey.

"To the world."

[goatbeard-goatbeard]

Can I just say how much I adore Good Omens’ portrayals of falling? I especially appreciate Gabriel’s weird abrupt turn in s2, because sometimes it really is like that.

My own loss of faith took years. It also took about 10 minutes.

If you had asked me that afternoon how I felt about [pick any controversial topic], I would have been 100% on the party line. And that wasn’t a performance or a mask, that was what I genuinely believed. Ask me about those same topics the next morning, and my positions on ALL OF THEM had completely changed.

Because: beliefs are related to each other! They support each other! You can’t always change one belief without changing dozens of others that are connected to it. So that final switch was turning a hundred different switches on the switchboard. In the years leading up to it, I was collecting those switches. I was installing the switches. But they stayed firmly in the Off position. These were things other people believed. They could only flip (becoming things I believed) once they had ALL been installed, because they ALL had to flip at the same time.

To people who haven’t experienced that (or who lost their faith in a different order / for different reasons), a gradual, piece-by-piece process probably looks more realistic. It’s way, way more common in fiction. But I personally find those portrayals to be so alienating. It often feels like storytellers can’t put themselves in a believer’s shoes at all. Like they’re writing a character that never really believed any of that stuff, deep down. So it’s very easy for that character to shed bits and pieces of those beliefs over time, because they were never actually integrated into their concept of reality.

Compared to that, Gabriel feels so much more real.

Because there won’t always be a nice, gradual Questioning Phase in between “archangel fucking Gabriel” and “what about no armageddon”. Sometimes it’s a long, invisible process of data gathering — all while 100% on heaven’s team — punctuated by a very very sudden freestyle dive.

[siriusly-the-best-bi]

Ya know what’s curious to me? In Episode 2 when Crowley asks Aziraphale in the cellar whose side he’s on, Aziraphale responds “God’s, of course!”

Ya know why this is curious?

Well, for one, they’re talking about sides. Heaven and Hell. Their respective bosses. Crowley’s response of going along with Hell as far as he can makes sense, it’s what we expect to hear, but when he turns the question on Aziraphale, he doesn’t exclaim ‘heaven’s obviously!’ He immediately associates himself and his values with God directly.

Second of all, In episode 6, when talking about accepting the Metatron’s job offer as the new supreme archangel with Crowley, Aziraphale says “but heaven! Well, it’s the side of truth, of light, of good.”

For the entirety of Good Omens season 1, Aziraphale had always talked about following God’s ineffable plan, which was a noticeably different turn of phrase than those such as Gabriel used in heaven, always referring to it as the Great Plan. This is even the very thing that lead them to wiggling their way around Armageddon in the first place when confronted by Gabriel and Beelzebub.

Aziraphale has always made the distinction that he is an angel and does good because he believes that God is good and he trusts in their design.

Now I might just be loosing it, it is nearly 3am, but this sudden distinction and the choice of Aziraphale to not only discuss heaven in such a manner, but to refer to it as an entire Side, and use the adjectives he uses to describe heaven when we’ve only ever seen or heard him talk about God this way… it just all plays very intentional to me. It feel’s weird.

Especially once you take into consideration the flashbacks we’re shown of Beelzebub and Gabriel discussing the failed Armageddon in their little pub rendezvous. They never once mention their respect ‘boss’. Gabriel says “we are ready for round two.” And Beelzebub’s response is “as are we.” This we that they’re referring to isn’t God. It’s not Satan. They’re talking about the beings who reside in these respective places. The Angels and the Demons. And the conversation then continues with Gabriel admitting, “everyone in Heaven is all like, ‘Well, you’re the commander-in-chief, can’t you just make the war happen anyway?’ Like, I make the rules.” And whats Beelzebub’s response? “That’s exactly what my lot said.”

The pressure isn’t coming from God anymore. In the past, like seen in the Job episode, when there were divine tasks at hand they were dealt with by the angels for God, and God was directly involved in finding the outcome. There was no going through management or filing paperwork or monitoring miracles. And hey, I get it. As time evolves along with the humans, so does everything else.

My question is, is it possible that with these evolutions in the human world, that Heaven and Hell have perhaps learned a thing or two from humanity as well? Already they’ve mimicked the clothing, the office spaces, the entire design of heaven and hell down to the management hierarchy. Is it possible that these wars and these fights aren’t being started by God anymore, but an act of civil war amongst the Angels and Demons? We already see Michaels urge for power and control paralleled and almost foiled by Shax’s drive for control and power and both were the driving factors between any of the Major problems this season that lead to major conflicts between Heaven and Hell.

That brings us of course, to the Metatron. Who is he and where exactly did he come from? When did his position become necessary and why wasn’t he present as the ‘voice of god’ in the job minisode? Why suddenly are all of God’s plans, only being carried out by him?

Do you want to know why I think Gabriel was being demoted and not sent to Hell as a fallen angel? Because I don’t think they can. I think that’s something only God can do, but what kind of fear and control would that hold over all the busy bee’s? No, no, instead, let’s frame it as a Kindness. Heaven won’t cast you out because it will make them look bad! because it’s happened before, so they have no choice but to play a game of politics to keep everyone in check.

But here’s my question. Has there been a fallen angel since the great war? Why is it that after all this time, Aziraphale hasn’t fallen time and time again? Why is it that instead of an Angel falling from grace to join the armies of hell, the response to an act of rebellion is absolute destruction. The same could be said for hell. If you have demons walking around that are doing good, wouldn’t that simply just re-spark their halo’s? Why is it that they’d be destroyed by Holy Water instead of simply returning to Heaven?

It’s because God plays an ineffable game of their own design. They’re not playing with earth, or humanity. They’re toying with the Angels and the Demons. It’s why they’re placing bets with Satan.

When Crowley’s attempting to convince Aziraphale to run away for the last time, he doesn’t say Fuck God and Fuck whatever game this is, we don’t need to be a part of it. He says Heaven and Hell are toxic we need to get away from them.

It’s just so curious to me how this season has carefully and slowly taken us away from the idea of God and God’s Ineffable Plan and instead led us into this drama between Heaven and Hell, no mention of God whatsoever. No narrator.

[brsb4hls]

Good Omens Spoilers:

I'm off work now and can sort my thoughts a bit.

So far I've seen only positive reactions and some posts complaining about criticism (which I have not seen in itself).

I very much feel there's something missing in the discussion.

I'm not gonna spoil people's fun and I certainly will enjoy fan stuff, but I cannot stop being pissed.

And it's not about wether Aziraphale reciprocates Crowley's feelings and if they are a canon romantic couple or not.

That's not the point. The point also isn't dolphins, it is that I feel that Gaiman perverted the original core of Good Omens.

He might have done it for angst and a dramatic build up and he might resolve it if there will be a third season (which cannot be guaranteed, so THAT ending could be what we have to live with), but whatever the reasons, he did it and it leaves a bad taste.

To me the point of Good Omens always was that heaven and hell as a strict and rigid concept were equally horrible.

The 'good place' so to say was always earth.

And being a human on earth was about being accepted with all one's quirks and also making one's own decisions.

If I remember correctly those points are mostly made by Adam (who actually is the main character of the book, it just has so many colourful supports you wouldn't notice).

So Aziraphale and Crowley fit way better on earth, because they're both too unique for a rigid corporate structure.

They already are their own little team even if Aziraphale sometimes displays a holier-than- thou attitude and needs Crowley to remind him what he would loose, if earth were gone.

So they both defy their respective bosses to keep the niche they carved.

The first season of the show manages to keep that core statement despite changing the characters up a bit.

And it ends like in the book, with Aziraphale and Crowley fighting the system and winning, being free.

And now it's all set back and actually made worse by Aziraphale willingly going back, as long as he's in charge.

In the show, Aziraphale was bullied by his superior and now takes his job. He thinks he can change the oppressive system from the inside instead of abolishing it altogether, or staying clear of it, because it is 'toxic'.

And yes, I did notice that tiny bit of blackmail from Metatron regarding Crowley, but after all that happened THAT should have given Aziraphale a clue about what he is getting into again.

He also doesn't seem to suddenly know his best friend of 6000 years anymore.

Crowley never had a problem with being a demon. He had a problem with how hell treated him.

And a problem with how heaven reacted to asking questions, which is a thing he loves, so why would he want to go back?

On earth, Crowley was completely ok with doing minor mischief and performing demonic magic.

And Aziraphale technically knows that, but he tries to drag Crowley along for purely selfish reasons. And on top he seems to think that as a demon Crowley is not good enough anymore.

And that completely goes against the point.

The point that has been made very clear before and made book and parts of the first season so great.

Gaiman let the system win.

(and pull Aziraphale back in after he successfully got out. That's like someone taking back their horrible job at the factory that pays minimum wages and pollutes the environment as long as they're forman).

[thesherrinfordfacility]

The fact that the Bentley does whatever Aziraphale wants and keeps inching towards him when he leaves the car. And the Bentley is an extension of Crowley, it's a part of him and he can feel everything going on in and around her. He's so completely in love with Aziraphale that even his CAR is absolutely whipped for Aziraphale. Michael mentioned in an interview that the Bentley likes Aziraphale best and, yeah, of COURSE she does. She's Crowley's. I am unwell. She turned yellow and gave him candy.

absolutely!!! i joke about it but bentley is absolutely a character in the show rather than just a vehicle, she's at least portrayed as having a subtle personality and i think it makes sense that she responds to aziraphale the way she does... he is who her owner (dad? who knows) loves and will do what she can to make him comfortable... plus, she's a diva but knows what she can and can't get away with - and i suspect that she knows to toe the line with aziraphale.

that being said, i think it must be difficult for crowley to see that; to see her respond to him the way she does, especially if he considers their bond to be pretty unique ✨

[applecidersstuff]

How about we talk about the whole “Metatron, the voice of the god” thing?

 Because it’s a bit weird to me. Like no one in Heaven ever questions the fact that only Metatron can talk to the Almighty. To be honest for me it looks like he doesn’t even talk to them anymore; I mean, maybe he did it before, but now it seems like he just pretends to do it.

For example - the first scene of the second season - Crowley creating the universe. 

You know, when you’re making a prototype, you’re usually informed about it; I mean, it’s not like you finish a phone, and then someone goes, “Hey, it was actually a prototype, so now I need you to smash it.” 

When Azira comes to Crowley and tells him that the universe will be destroyed in 6000 years, he seems surprised, and it feels like he was told something different. He also mentions that he worked very closely with the original creator, who’s supposed to be God. And Crowley is absolutely sure that he can ask a couple questions and maybe even suggest something. 

I highly believe that the Almighty themselves ordered Crowley to create the universe, but then Metatron told Azira about Armageddon. But it wasn’t an order from God but something Metatron wanted. He just masked it to sound like Her order. And when Crowley started doubting what Azira told him, he became a threat to Metatron. In the last ep, Metatron says that Crowley asked too many questions, so what if it wasn’t God who threw Crowley out of Heaven, but Metatron?

And if you’re saying, “God wanted Armageddon, they didn’t do anything to stop it!” you’re wrong. If they really wanted Earth to end, they wouldn’t allow Adam to go to the wrong family. And they would punish Crowley and Aziraphale. Which they didn’t do; Heaven and Hell did, but not God. In fact, they sounded way happier that Armageddon didn’t happen at all.

In the book, there is Metatron in the scene with Adam and the horsemen instead of Gabriel. And when Crowley and Angel start to argue with him and Beelzebub, there is a line that says, “said Metatron, but in a worried tone of voice.” While Beelzebub was angry in the book, and both them and Gabriel were annoyed in the show, Metatron was worried. And it wasn’t the type of worry that ineffable bureaucracy had; they were concerned about sending their sides back to work. But Metatron sounded more like he wanted everyone to forget what Crowley and Azira said.

Crowley’s reaction to God talking to Job is also weird. 

When Job talks to God, Crowley seems surprised. He says ‘’but just to be able to ask a question’’. Which is weird considering that it was God, as we’re told, that threw him down for questions. 

Crowley was downcasted from Heaven, basically, for annoying God, not for plotting something or joining Satan’s friend group, but for asking too many questions. And now we know that those questions were about a project he and Saraqael were working on alongside God, not with Metatron, not Gabriel, but the Almighty Herself. Also, what Crowley suggests, putting Earth in the middle is reasonable. But that’s not the point now.

 So according to that our ‘thin dark duke’ wasn’t supposed to be surprised by God talking, it could’ve been Aziraphale, but not Crowley. 

That flashback in fact is really important for the storyline and especially for Crowley’s backstory, she has many suspicious lines, like “the same god that wants me to kill children?” which kinda implies that the actual God doesn’t want to kill them but someone who’s pretending to be god is, or, again, the whole dialogue with Aziraphale while god talks. He also stops Sitith from cursing God, while he as a demon shouldn’t have any problems with that, so maybe he didn’t want her to curse not Almighty but Metatron.

 

Then we have - Saraqael. They are the only character confirmed to have known pre-fall Crowley and known to work with them. (Aziraphale doesn’t count due to him meeting Crowley shortly before his fall and Crowley not even introducing herself.)

 But Saraqael is interesting to me also because they’re the only archangel that we see with a disability(I don’t have any problems with the character or actress being disabled; I love that we have representation.); demons have plenty; angels, on the other hand, mostly appear as perfect creatures. But not Saraqael, and them being disabled looks much more interesting once we learn that they’re an archangel who worked with Crowley.

We know that angels didn’t want to send Gabriel to hell because that may have created wrong thoughts among angels. Considering that Saraqael worked on the universe just like Crowley, they would most likely have the same questions as him, but they’re still an angel and haven’t changed their status.

Also, their name is mentioned two or three times and they aren’t treated like an archangel, the way Michael and Uriel talk, or rather they don’t talk, about them really reminds me of the way they talk about Jim. And Gabriel can’t remember their name, although he didn’t have that problem with Sandalfon or Aziraphale, but he has one with his actual colleague? Both Sandalfon and Aziraphale are not archangels, yes they have a high rank but it still doesn’t make them archangels. 

 Then again, not only do they not tell Michael or Uriel about Crowley, but they tell Muriel to show him the trial.  Why would an angel, especially a high-ranking angel, cover for a demon who’s looking through very important files? 

And while Metatron and Crowley have one interaction, things Metabitch says after Crowley leaves are also suspicious in a weird way; while Angel is crushed he tells him that he never really needed Crowley, and then he says “he was always asking damn fool questions” Like, how would you know?? he was talking to God not you. 

So my idea is - Metatron isn’t talking to God anymore. I also think that Metatron tried to get rid of God(don’t ask me how I don’t know) and God, knowing damn well about it, ordered Crowley and Saraqael to create the universe, then they created humans so she could hide among them (“And God created man in their own image, in the image of God created they him; male and female created she them.” Genesis 1:27) and ran to earth. They are hiding on earth and waiting for the right moment to come out. 

[actual-changeling]

I have tried to find a way to word this that isn't accusatory because that is not my goal here, but after writing and rewriting this a dozen or more times I've given up. I'm just upset about it all but I don't intend this to be taking it out on you specifically. I am truly sending it in good faith!

It's been incredibly difficult to be an ace fan with ace headcanons lately because of constant "Let. Them. Fcuk!" shouts from all corners, as though A/C must have sex on screen for their relationship to count. There are many posts insisting all headcanons are valid followed immediately by more posts insisting they have to be sexual creatures because of this or that reason and any thought to the contrary is just wrong. My "favorites" are the ones arguing that because they love human things so much then of course they must want to have sex because all humans want to have sex!

Needless to say as a human who has never once in my life wanted to have sex I find that incredibly othering. It's not the only argument that's been verging hard into acephobic and exclusionary rhetoric lately either.

Ace people can and do have sex. Ace people can also be sex repulsed or just uninterested. Aziraphale and Crowley could easily be any of those things just as easily as they could be sexual beings. What we see in the show and the book are two beings who canonically have demonstrated nothing about their thoughts on sex and sexuality. There are things some take as hints at a sexual nature but those same things can be read as something entirely nonsexual. As Neil said, sometimes an oxrib is just an oxrib. Canonically and textually all that scene shows is the birth of Aziraphale's hedonistic (in the philosophical sense of the term) desires. And yet, as hedonistic as that scene is, it is still not inherently sexual. It's one possible valid reading of the subtext to be sure but also not the only possible valid reading. You can take that scene to mean Aziraphale's gonna screw Crowley's brains out the second they avert Apocalypse 2.0 or you can take it to mean he's gonna drag him on a whirlwind tour of the dessert trays of every good restaurant in town instead. Both are valid interpretations of what Aziraphale going to town on that rib could be representing and neither is more correct. Both readings fit under the hedonism umbrella but true hedonism does not and has never mandated sexual activity. Aziraphale is a fine example of an ethical hedonist and yet his canonical hedonism is not concrete proof that he must want to have sex, as I have seen argued. Hedonism can include sex but it can also be entirely focused on food and drink or art and music or philosophy. Yes, you can be asexual and a hedonist, they are not contradictions in terms.

As a final note I just want to add my own stance on it. I personally think they may be idly curious about sex, perhaps enough to indulge now and then, but it's not something either feels they need in their relationship to feel valid and loved. I also feel I must say that I don't agree with the faction that says they'd be too pure as non-humans to even consider sex as an option. I find that just as othering, in a different way, as saying they must want sex because all humans do.

And so finally I come to my question at the end of all the rambling. If every headcanon is valid as canon does not show their thoughts on sex one way or the other, then why is it fine to see them as sexual and insist it has to be in the show and yet worthy of mocking to see them as ace and to not want a sex scene?

Good faith recognized and accepted, so no worries on that front.

I'm glad you felt comfortable enough to send the message in the first place, it's one of the reasons I always have anon asks on. I don't mind playing middle man (gn) for fandom discussions.

Edit: I just realised I might not have made it clear enough, but I'm alloaro myself, so same hat and all.

If every headcanon is valid as canon does not show their thoughts on sex one way or the other, then why is it fine to see them as sexual and insist it has to be in the show and yet worthy of mocking to see them as ace and to not want a sex scene?

The short answer is that it is not fine to mock or attack people for their headcanons, and I really wish I could tell you that it's simply a matter of kindness or working through some aphobia, but it's so, SO much more complicated than that.

I will try my best to explain my interpretation of why the above happens, but if I lose anyone at any point, don't hesitate to ask questions! Hopefully my red string will hold though.

The problem you describe is not specific to this fandom, it will pop up in literally every single one at some point or other, and in some corners it turn into queerphobia on all sides just being thrown around.

With Good Omens in particular, the canon Neil gives us is incredibly pliable, everything and nothing can apply, and you are not restricted by gendered subtext or implications. It's great! It really is! BUT it also means that people start projecting heavily on a character, headcanoning their specific labels for them, etc. which by itself isn't a problem.

It becomes one when a headcanon that does not align with theirs suddenly feels like a personal attack—as if headcanoning that character as something you aren't is invalidating your identity through that character. I hope that makes sense, simple version is people project a lot, and it gets very messy very fast.

Queer sexuality has a long and complicated history, and I really recommend to everyone to read up on i at least a little. In the media, you usually get one of two depictions of it: predatory or pornographic. Both suck, both are bad representation, both further already existing stereotypes.

However, that means any depictions of queer people that are not one of the above tend to be non-sexual to a point where the intention behind certain choices is very clear. Queer sexuality is bad and dirty, it should be hidden away, and is only allowed to exist if it can be consumed by cishet people or used for their amusement.

So where does that leave us with Good Omens?

Many people are desperate for good representation, myself included, and with the way Neil is writing the show, everything is possible, and some things even likely. He said himself that one of the reasons for the kiss was the destruction of deniability of their relationship.

We need to have queer sexuality on our screens because otherwise it will always be seen as other, and queer relationships will be denied on the basis of a 'lack of intimacy'. It sucks, it is completely inaccurate, and unfair, but that is where we are.

If we take this information and tie it back to the projection issues I talked about in the beginning, I think it's possible to understand the point I'm trying to make.

Suddenly it is no longer the character's sexuality that is not shown but their own, and that opens Pandora's box for all kinds of difficult emotions.

Everything above also applies to aspec people, just that most of us are usually looking for a lack of something rather than a presence, which is not better or worse than wanting queer sexuality explicitly shown. People end up butting heads—and it gets incredibly personal way too quickly—because you have group A, who want to see a sex scene because of above reasons, and then you have group B, who would prefer for that not to happen.

While that's a perfectly fine headcanon to have (and it SHOULD be respect, every hc should be), some people from A will see a post about them never having sex and interpret it (mostly subconsciously, I presume) as an attempt to repress queer sexuality from being shown.

The 'solution' (easier said than done) to the problem is learning when to step back and how to recognize when one is getting too caught up in their character(s)—or simply how to not be an asshole and scroll past something. Tumblr has great blacklist and blocking features, use them, people.

Bottom line, harassing people for their headcanons or other fandom ideas is rude, inappropriate, and makes you an asshole that needs to log off and go on a fucking walk.

[queer-reader-07]

coffee theory and the disparaging of aziraphale’s character

ok y’all buckle up, we’re finally talking about why coffee theory not only disparages aziraphale’s character but would cheapen the story.

this is a meta i’ve been trying to write for ages now because i know i have Thoughts but trying to communicate them in a coherent and not passive aggressive way is… difficult to say the least.

i have a few main points i’m gonna touch on in this post:

1) why coffee theory disparages aziraphale’s character and removes him of his agency

2) why it would cheapen the story

3) how it underestimates neil’s talent as a writer

4) why the implications of it irk me

ok. let’s get into this.

firstly, a run down of coffee theory for anyone who’s managed to miss it. coffee theory basically states that the metatron drugged/manipulated the coffee he gave aziraphale such that the coffee was what led to aziraphale making the decision to go to heaven. (i.e. he wasn’t himself, he was under the influence and that’s why he did what he did)

why coffee theory disparages aziraphale’s character and removes him of his agency

look. i understand that aziraphale’s decision to go to heaven and take up the position of supreme archangel hurt. i understand that a lot of y’all were angry at him, and many of y’all still are angry with his decision. that is so totally valid and i’m not saying you’re wrong for being upset.

but what i do have to say is this: you can be angry at him while simultaneously acknowledging that his decision makes sense in the context of his character. those two truths can coexist without contradiction.

i think that a lot of people (myself included) have this unconscious tendency to view characters through our own warped perceptions of them rather than their actual character. like we all have our own headcanons about the characters and media we enjoy, but sometimes they get away from us and we start projecting complete headcanon onto real actual canon plot.

so let’s talk canon for a minute. the show has shown us time and time again that aziraphale fundamentally believes Heaven is good. he knows the angels are mean or bad sometimes but he thinks that capital H Heaven is good. that God’s plan is good. he believes that being an angel makes you good.

“i know the angel you were.” “you’re a demon you lied.” “you’re the bad guys.” “we’re hereditary enemies” “there is no our side”. aziraphale believes that being an angel and being on the side of Heaven is what makes you good. yes he knows crowley is good but aziraphale thinks it’s because of his past status as an angel. that it’s in spite of his demonic nature.

aziraphale believes that with the help of someone good (properly good, not pretend-y good) Heaven can be perfect and good and share that goodness with humanity. and he’s been given the opportunity to do that, alongside crowley no less!

aziraphale doesn’t fully understand how corrupt Heaven truly is. and nobody can get that across to him. not even crowley. miscommunication is an issue between them, yes. but it’s not the only issue. aziraphale fundamentally believes in Heaven, and crowley does not.

so of course aziraphale chose going to Heaven and being in charge because now he can truly enact change. his decision makes so. much. sense.

and coffee theory? coffee theory would strip aziraphale of all his depth and complexity as a character. it would say “yeah he has this long history of being hurt by this institution but his faith in it is so strong that he was willing to leave the one being he loved most in the universe behind if it meant fixing the institution and creating a safe future for him and his lover. but actually he just got drugged lol.” like. how utterly disappointing would that be? it strips him of his agency, it strips him of his complexity, it makes him boring. and boring is one of the worst things a character can be.

aziraphale is allowed to be a complex character. he’s allowed to make decisions you don’t like. in fact i think he should. that’s what happens in stories. especially in good ones. characters make decisions you don’t like all the time but what matters is if the decision makes sense. and aziraphale’s decision makes all the sense. no matter how upset it made you, it checks out.

why it would cheapen the story

look me in the eyes when i say this: most of y’all would probably hate coffee theory in practice because it is such a cop out plot twist.

coffee theory fundamentally disallows complexity to aziraphale’s decision to leave earth. it makes it a “oh no he was drugged!” situation instead of a “he has a lot of shit to work through and he’s hurting and the being he loves is hurting and the world is gonna end and he needs to work on himself before he can save the world properly.” situation.

coffee theory is bred out of the knee jerk instinct to say aziraphale was completely wrong and crowley was right and “i need to explain away aziraphale’s decision because he would never hurt crowley!!!”

y’all. i love aziraphale, do not get me wrong. but have we been watching the same show? aziraphale has hurt crowley, multiple times. he’s said many hurtful things. and it all comes back to the same reason: he believes Heaven and angels are good, and demons and Hell are bad.

it’s all connected. and i want to see the show acknowledge all of that. push it to the surface and let them confront it all. not brush away the hurt with some cheap “he was drugged!” plot twist. it’s boring and disappointing.

how it underestimates neil’s talent as a writer

neil is a good writer. i’m not gonna entertain arguments about this, if you like good omens you like neil’s writing. (and i highly suggest you read his other novels). and if there’s one thing i’ve found in my time reading neil’s books it’s that everything is intentional.

how much time does this fandom spend dissecting every single frame of the show because we know nothing is accidental? that is not a good omens specific thing, it’s in all of neil’s works (at least the ones i’ve read). neil is incredibly intentional in what he does, and in my experience he doesn’t rely on cheap plot twists.

he can plot twist the ever living daylights out of you but it will never be a cheap cop out like “he was drugged!” and acting like coffee theory is actually plausible is frankly an underestimation of what neil is capable of as a writer.

why the implications of it irk me

can we all just agree that the fandom likes crowley more? and that whenever aziraphale does anything slightly complex it’s often times either met with “oh nonono here’s this reason that doesn’t allow him any complexity” or “i hate him!!!! (also doesn’t allow complexity)”

you can adore crowley. i adore him too, i relate to him very deeply. but i love aziraphale too and i’m kind of tired of how frequent the aziraphale slander is.

and coffee theory, if i’m being honest, feels very much like y’all just can’t handle aziraphle being anything more than “silly little gay angel running the bookshop”. it feels like people just can’t handle the fact that he has his own motivations and feelings and that he truly thinks he’s doing the right thing.

and it’s to the point that you need to convince yourself he was DRUGGED so that you can accept his decisions?? y’all. did we watch the same show?

[scarlet6rose]

Soo just wanna talk a bit I guess

It's about good omens I know, I know. Half of the fandom is in mourning 'cause of Aziraphale and Crowley in s2 ep6 but I just want to do a character analysis of both for some more added information (ig). Now, I don't know if someone has already done this analysis or not, but fuck it, I'ma just do them anyways. I think we can look at Crowley first since most people do relate to him more than anyone else. In season 1, we are introduced to the fact that Crowley is the snake from Eden. That in itself makes him very important, but in season 2 episode 1, his importance rises so much. We find the fact that they were the ones who geared up the universe, "Let there be light" and stuff, he also said that he worked very close with upstairs. In the final episode of season 2, he could also open a confidential file that could only be accessed by a throne, a dominion, or above. This means; that before falling, he was extremely important/had a high status (whether he was Raphael or not doesn't matter). Again, in the last episode of season 2, during their breakup, he says, "I understand it a lot better than you do." to Aziraphale when he suggests that Crowley go up to heaven with him. Crowley, in this scenario, knows what's going on. He has clearly seen what heaven is like, top to bottom. From Crowley's point of view, both heaven and hell do not understand that there doesn't need to be a war. That Armageddon doesn't need to happen. He has always seen things in grey, from the beginning. Questioning God and her plans; not fully abiding with hell, like, ever; doing whatever the fuck he wants. Now, before I continue, I think I should give Aziraphale's character some more context. I have been hearing about the coffee theory in the fandom. in simple words: Metatron put something in the coffee and manipulated Aziraphale to become the supreme archangel with it. it definitely is an interesting theory, but there isn't much proof I can see. Mainly because, we see their conversation (in bits a pieces, sure), and you can see Aziraphale acting normally. He's wary and concerned. But from the beginning, Aziraphale has always (mostly) seen in Black and Whites (contrary to Crowley). Even if he denies it, he does (it's hard to forget what you believed since you existed). The only person who's shown Aziraphale that, "Hey, there can be more than one option" is Crowley. Only with Crowley has he ever had the choices (not just good and evil). Even then, he believed Heaven is always good and hell's always evil (he has made multiple remarks about him being good and Crowley being evil, for example, in the flashback of the Edinburgh surgeon, he has made that remark. Even when they met in season 1, he said, "Well obviously, you're a demon." after Crowley said that hell just said to go up there and make some trouble). This in itself proves that Aziraphale always thought in black and white even when he tries to divert himself to not think like that. In his eyes, Heaven is good, and Hell is evil. But the angels and the demons can be in between those shades of grey. That Heaven is currently corrupted, and Hell, even more. He doesn't want another Armageddon, he wants heaven to understand what it means to be "good" (good in atleast his eyes). In very simple words; Aziraphale believes that Heaven isn't working properly/is corrupt and wants to/thinks that he can infact fix it, and Crowley believes everything is working the way it's supposed to since he has seen it personally displayed infront of him, since he has been a high ranking angel in Heaven. Or in much simpler words: THEY DON'T FUCKING TALK TO EACHOTHER.

If the both of them could've had a heart-to-heart talk earlier, it could've ended so much differently. Neither of them knows what the other feels and just assumes what they think the other one thinks. It in itself is a toxic mindset to have. They both didn't "break up" because Metatron manipulates Aziraphale or because Aziraphale couldn't return Crowley's feelings (man's (non-binary) literally fell first). It was because neither of them understood eachother. Aziraphale sees Crowley as a demon who wants desperately to be an angel (many indirect remarks have been made like in Job's arc and such) and someone who accidentally fell (which is true at some level). AND Crowley sees Aziraphale as a simple-minded angel who needs rescuing from time to time (which, again, is true at some level). They both are literally forgetting their own nuances and beliefs, and assuming what the other thinks because, say it with me, THEY DO NOT TALK. The reason Crowley felt betrayed was because he didn't realize that Aziraphale wasn't exactly who he thought he was. After all, Aziraphale isn't a simple character, he's a complex character with very strict (too strict) morals. And Aziraphale realized that Crowley really didn't want to go to Heaven OR Hell, since he always thought that Crowley only hated Hell, not Heaven aswell. So it was a shock to him. WHY? BECAUSE THEY DON'T FUCKING TALK TO EACHOTHER. So, when people say that it's because of the coffee, it pisses me off a little. It practically refuses the idea of nuances existing within these characters. Listen, if it's actually because of the coffee or Metatron doing/saying something sinister to Aziraphale, I'll take my L. But for now, I wholeheartedly believe that it was fully Aziraphale's decision to go to Heaven.

so yeah, that's all, I might add to this later, might not.

[hi-i-just]

I'm surprised this isn't talked abt much, and I know by supernatural standards it takes a lot to get drunk, but tbh? Crowley is kind of an alcoholic.

What's the first thing he reaches for whenever he encounters something that evokes great emotion? A bottle. He always goes for a bottle. He doesn't do it always w every situation but when he does he copes with a bottle. Satan's attempt to kill the children of Job. The 7 year old boy's death. The belief of it being his last night on earth thanks to Furfur's evidence. Trying to convince Aziraphale to help him raise the Antichrist. Actually losing the Antichrist. Losing Aziraphale. Nina's talk.

[beauspot]

idc what anyone says nina is so crowley coded and maggie is so aziraphale coded. like at the core of who they are.

the pessimist and the optimist.

the one who can’t even entertain the idea that the other finds them attractive and the one who can’t take their eyes off of them.

the one who doesn’t really care about the conflict but will fight for their other half and the one who knows their partner will always be there for them

maggie waits for nina to come around the same way aziraphale does when crowley leaves.

do you think it’s a coincidence that in nearly every shot together maggie is on the right and nina is on the left (our left and right respectively)?

Do we know anyone else who’s constantly framed like this?