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popculturebuffet · 3 years

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Scottrospective: Scott Pilgrim Gets It Together! or Days of Summer

Hello all you happy scottaholics! Welcome back to those of you who’ve read the rest of this retrospective and welcome to those of you just joining us. This is the Scottrospective, my look at all 6 volumes of Scott Pilgrim, the game and the movie. It’s all the video game refrenes, slice of life story telling and boob punches you can handle!

It’s been three months since I left off with “The Infinite Sadness” , and while I intended to cover this one for Valentine’s Day, my schedule got away from me and with March being full up, this ended taking till April

I”m not too put off by it though as the hiatus between these two reviews is fitting for this one both in story and out. In story there’s a couple month time skip between books, while out.. this book got delayed a few times.

This is notable to me at least because this was the first volume of the series I bought when it came out. As i’ve brought up before I came into the series via the Free Comic Book Day Issue and the second and third volumes, picking one up later. I still have my original copies despite no longer really needing them thanks to having the color editions in general. Always will provided something dosne’t happen to them. So this was my first instalment that I got to read fresh and got to wait for and be hyped about and i’d saved enough money that I was able to pre-order it. So the experince of waiting and waiting for the book only to keep seeing it slide back is vivid in my mind as is the frustration I felt having the one thing I COULD NOT WAIT FOR, keep going further and further back.

So with this long wait and the fact I bought this one when it came out, as I would for the next two which didn’t get delayed thank god, this volume naturally means a lot for me. When I wrote Scott Pilgrim fanfiction, this volume’s status quo is what I based it on. It was the coolest to me and the one I loved to reread the most. It has the most contained story, the most character growth at the time, and the best art due to Bryan’s style having finally hit it’s stride. Not that the art for volumes 1-3 is bad mind you, but it’s very clear his style was changing and shaping into what it is now with each one and while it’d change a bit more, this volume is where the style and quality everyone thinks of when they think of this series and the kind you see on various art done from it comes from.

So as you can tell i’m excited for this one. Before we get started there WERE two shorter comics released between this one both for Free Comic Book day, the first of which, Free Scott Pilgrim, is the reason I got into the series and the second, the Wonderful World of Kim Pine .. was both delightful and sets up Kim moving in with Hollie for this volume. Originally I intended to cover these in this review.. but I realized they wouldn’t of helped the pacing and this review is going to be way longer than my standard as is.

So instead I came up with the compromise. I did review them.. but as bonus reviews on my patreon. For just one buck a month you can read them and help me reach my stretch goals which now include reviews of Lost at Sea, Seconds and SnotGirl, aka Bryan’s OTHER comics. You can find my patreon THROUGH THIS LINK HERE if your intrested in the exclusives or helping me reach my reviews. I also intend to do an exclusive of Monica Beetle, a short comic Bryan did starring Scott’s dad in the 70s at some point so keep your eyes peeled for that, as well as the three strips he did of Style, the comic that gave us the prototypes for Lisa and Kim.

I will talk about their connections and setups for this volume briefly: FSP sets up the next ex as a ninja, with Roxy having a bunch of posters come to live and pummel our boy, while Wonderful World has Hollie tell Kim she can move in with her. It’s not much, hence why i made these exclusives but they are good stories, so check them out. And with that JOIN ME UNDER THE CUT, as we enter Scott’s world once more as he grapples with the past, employment, and saying the L-Word... which might be Lesbians. I don’t know. Find out bellow!

So we open Two Months after Volume 3 with a beach birthday party! Complete with Kim in a swim suit!

But it’s for Julie who lobs a volley ball at Scott’s head when he and Ramona try to make out.

I also dont’ know if “Manfiesting out of all the world’s collectives sorrows” counts as a “birth” necessarily but whatever. I love a good beach story. It’s just a fun setitng for swimming, romance and battling a giant crab with the help of the bird what lives in your backpack.

So after the beach our heroes get dinner and Ramona sweetly calls Scott the nicest guy she’s ever dated. He responds with “That’s sad”. Blunt, but entirely accruate. Julie calls it pathetic and tries to counter Ramona RIGHTFULLY saying “who the hell asked you?” something that really should come after EVERYTHING Julie said with “Back off bitch i’ts my birthday”

So later that night Sex Bomb-Omb has a beach sing along, and I can’t help but notice Neil’s hairy legs.

I mean yes it does make since for a 19 year old to have leg hair, but of all the characters besides Stephen, the ONLY other character we’ve seen it with to give it to, why the character you specifically single out as “Young” it’s just a weird choice I never noticed before.

But anyways Julie has to whine about it because she’s Julie, she can’t stand other people being happy and complains the song...

One of my faviorite moments of the series. Knives puts a nicer spin on it, she’s here too and not over with Neil because, as we’ll find out later they broke up, but she just asks if Knives should be drinking. She shouldn’t but for fucks sake lady she was just trying to talk. I also do like that despite Julie trying to control Ramona’s love life, you know the thing the VILLIANS are doing, Ramona cannot stand her now.. and honestly probably never did.

But Julie, SOMEHOW turns out to be right for once as Kim and Knives have disappeared later that night, and Scott elects to go look for them. Also Ramona says she wants to marry kim while drunk after Julie asks if she does. The throuple is strong with these three... serioulsy that’s my one true pairing for all three now. I mean it ballances out their collective flaws, it’s cute and Ramona is just as into her boyfriends ex as she is her actual boyfriend even when she’s not hamered. Why the fuck not?

Scott instead finds the two making out. I will confess I shipped these two when I was younger.. but I don’t. Not because their gay or anything or because I found another ship for them but because the age gap is still just as wide as it was for Scott. The game did not get this memo and made them a couple which is... ehhhhhhhhh. I mean I wouldn’t mind either being bi, but it just brings up the same problems even if their both hammered. I also question why this scene exists. No really outside of one face punchingly dickish comment from Scott later, this never comes up again and it doesn’t effect Kim’s or Knives character any. Why have this? it’s clearly not fanservice, it’s just a thing that happened. And while Scott Pilgrim as a series does have some of those, as does life and that’s fine.. this is a bit too major, i.e. Kim and Knives, two of the main cast, making out, drunkenly or not, to just.. gloss over you know? I feel Kim would feel majorly guilty for this, as she has the most active moral compass of the main group, and Knives would be massively confused but it’s just.. forgotten because I dunno. In a story that’s otherwise pretty stellar this stands out as an utter waste of potential. I’m not saying have them hook up, gay or not it’s still not better than what Scott did, but have them at least talk about it and have both grow or something from it. Sheesh.

So we cut to.. another day. Maybe the next day I dunno but it’s August. Point is Scott and Wallace are grocery shopping and Wallace notes they can’t get fancy mayo as their barely in budget. I would’ve glossed over this scene... but @panur pointed out back around the Infinite Sadness review that this scene reveals something very intrestng: Scott.. is kind of a fincial burdern to Wallace. Before this while Scott mooched off him it wasn’t all that clear that Wallace was struggling.

But here we notice that outside of some Havarti, it’s just the simplest stuff imaginable: turkey, bread, boxed mac and cheese ramen noodles... it’s nto BAD stuff, I have all of that in my house and it’s good stuff... but it’s not the kind of thing that you need to carefully budget for. Now granted part of this probably is Wallace as he likely spends a LOT on drinks, condoms and two 2 liters of diet soda a day.. but while he really needs to adress his alcohol issues, the rest is fair. He should be allowed to have as much sex and diet coke as he wants it’s his money. Same with the havarti. He earned it if he wants some really delcious cheese with herbs, seriously Havarati is the best, then that’s his bidness. But the rest of the time he’s barely managing to get a basketfull of cheap food.. because he has to provide for Scott. It’s clearly something Scott dosen’t get and something I can relate to not getting. It took me a while to get how hard it is to budget for a full family, let alone two people on one income like Wallace has to. But Wallace is working on a nice job... but still a call center or something. He can’t pay for everything and the finccial stress is about to give as their landlord wants to meet with them. And as we’re about to learn things were even worse than we thought.

Our heroes head home where we get a truly iconic conversation when, over margeritas (again proving my point that while Scott certainly isn’t HELPIGN wallace’s finacials, it’s not all on him)

This will be imporant later.. both the Lesbians part and Scott’s struggle saying it. he tried earlier on the beach but couldn’t get it out and Ramona clearly didn’t want to hear it as she kapt sshhhhing him.. playfully of course but still.

So some time later it’s moving day! Kim is moving into Hollie and Josephs, and Scott, Stephen and Jason are helping. You might be wondeirng who the hell Jason is. He’s Kim’s boyfriend. I do not likes him. Not because he’s kim’s boyfriend, getting upset because a fictional character you fancy is dating is just patently stupid. I’ts like getting upset a celebrity crush is in a relationship: you had no chance anyway why. I wasn’t even bothered as a kid. I don’t really like him.. because he has no real personaliy and no real baring on the plot and I struggle to think why Bryan included him other than for a really annoying plot twist next time, which does not help my liking him knowing what’s coming.

But while our heroes help our heroine move in, and Scott is suprised Hollie is there despite Kim having told him a minute ago she was moving in with her, something I can relate to sadly, we get something vitally plot important; Stephen passes Joseph’s room.. and notices he has a small recording setup in his room. Stephen quickly begs him to record the band’s album and Joseph agrees if only because he finds Stephen hot. Eh i’ve seen better relationships start on less, fair enough. And yes I said relationship more on that in a bit.

So after a brief scene of Scott and Ramona having lunch where Scott fails to know her age and when Ramona says he could just ask.. hea sks and she dosen’t tell, not a bad scene character wise just not very plot important and probably should’ve bene swapped in order with the previous scene, we get to the next day. There’s a heat wave so Wallace orders Scott to go to the mall maybe find a job. He emphasises that.

Instead Scott just sorta bums around thirst but nto having any money.. until an old face shows up.

For those who forgot like Scott has, it’s Lisa Miller from the Volume 2 flashback, the girl who had a crush on Scott and was close friends with him and Kim. After a tackle hug and some panic Scott eventually remembers.... if in a curiously unique and self serving way

At the time this was just hilarous. Now it’s very clear foreshadowing for the big twist in Volume 6. The two catch up while Scott is very clearly attracted to her but very clearly dosen’t want to be, with Lisa wondering where kim is, finding about Ramona, etc, before offering Scott lunch as the two catch up and Scott is very conflicted about how he feels. It’s nice visual stuff as he’s blushing, something more clear in the color version and trying to desperatley sort things out. As for why Lisa’s here she’s moving to the states soon, but is staying with her sister for now.

So after an incdental scene with Wallace we catch up with Knives, who has broken up with Neil. And after some talk about Clash at the Demonhead, Tamra notes Knives apparently put a big x on her shrine of Scott... which baffles Knifves as she sure as hell didn’t do it and is still, sadly, obessed with Scott as ever. Granted Tamra isn’t at all helpful here claiming she did it even when she says she didn’t, is clearly confused and while yes we don’t know who else would care Tams, that just makes it all the more creepy. Stop gaslighting your bestie, she’s already got enoguh issues. She dosen’t need thinking she might have a split personality on top of the stalking, obession over a guy who has no intrest in loving her back, and attempted stabbings. Knives dosesn’t get a ton of focus in this one sadly. She kind of takes a back seat, and while sh’es not GONE from the volumle and someone close to her does impact it, she dosen’t really have any personal progression, negative or positive, like she does in every other volume, a shame since her personal jouney is one of the most intresting of the main cast.

Anyways that night Scott hangs out with Lisa, having not gotten around to telling Ramona she exists yet and plays a game of find the Kim Pine. She goes to Neil’ and Stephen’s place for practice, but finds no one there and Neil being a dick... get used to that it’s going to get about 80 times worse soon enough. Though we do get this classic panel i’ve gotten some use out of

He goes to Kim’s place, but she , Hollie and Satan’s Misterss have all left to Sneaky Dee’s, the local mexican place, for something to eat and Stephen is either high or doing.. something with Joseph.

Yeah i’m not hiding that Stephen turns out to be gay in the final volume or cheating on Bitch and a Half with Joseph. And even if I hate Julie with the power of a frozen sun, I still dont’ think cheating on her is kosher. He could’ve just broken up with her and while part of it was likely confusion, and he could also be bi and not decided which one he wanted to be with, it’s still a dick move.. and later makes him a hypocrite but that’s a rant for next volume.

So our heroes FINALLY find Kim, along with Hollie and Mouthface. And a nice thing I like is that Kim and Lisa are just.. increidbly close, happily catching up and making plans to hang before Lisa leaves, that despite Lisa having feelings for Scott the two ended up as close and She and Scott did and i’ts sweet to see. it’s also just.. rare to see Kim GENUINELY happy. I mean look at her

It’s not like she HASN’T smiled across the series but normally she’s just so miserable, likely because her best friends are a grumbly asshole who forces them to hang out with a raging typhoon of bitchiness, and an insenitive asshat who she never got closure with. This is the first decent human being whose not Ramona or Hollie, and that last one’s not going to last, in a while. It’s genuinely sweet to just see her.. enjoy the moment for once, honestly engaged with someone. Ramona shows up and finally meets Lisa, who apparently was on Degrassi.. I mean she says candaian show no one ever watched, and I watched that plenty but i’d like to think she was on there for a season or two. I liked Degrassi.. I honeslty miss it and think it could use some form of revivial and think porting it to netflix was a smart decision.. what wasn’t so smart was not having the other seasons leading into it on there. Need to watch more of it.

So the next day Ramona stumbles into Scott’s dreams and both are annoyed, with Ramona suggesting he get a job. This finally gets him to try. He asks about Wallace’s work but understandably, he dosen’t really want scott there and asks if he even knows. So Scott sets out to ask his other friends for jobs, while Knives shows up saying she’s “totally not stalking him” but someone is following HER, a mysterious spiky haired dude in a black leather jacket, shades and with a sword on his back. Whu-oh.

He tries Second Cup, with Julie annoyed that Stephen’s recording.. it’s hard to tell if she’s annoyed because she’s a bitch or because Stephen is both gneuinely annoying right now and clearly screwing around behind her back. My take?

But Scott realizes maybe getting a job at his Sister’s place of work who also works with his arch enemy might be stupid and backs out. He next tries Kim’s, but backs out of that too, admitting to kim it’d be stupid and Kim lists off all the reasons (His lack of resume, the fact them working together would be stresful and his ountain of late fees) why that’d be stupid, but in a jovial way. For once i’ts clear that while she’s still taking the piss out of them she isn’t mad at Scott.

In fact she genuinely helps him get a job, taking him to Stephen’s work since hers is dead right now anyway, a vegan place. While Scott naturally compares things to a job system as he’d start as dishwasher while Stephen taught him prep, Scott agrees to genuinely take this seriously and Stephen’s boss decides “eh why not” when he asks her to employ him. Scott is gainfully employed baby! God I miss that. Seriously i’m not pimping my patreon for shits and giggles.

But as he celebrates and Kim wishes she could punch his life in the face, they run into some trouble on the way home: Katana man who slices a motherfucking bus in half and chases them, with Scott reluctnat to fight because he has a sword and Scott does not, which is valid. He does escape though using subspace. He and Kim part awkardly and he returns home to Wallace throwing a party with two intresting charcters, a woman and a man of color, one of the few in the entire work, who are never seen again.

The next night is practice.. or rather recording, and we start to see Neil get edged out, with him unable to come due to exams and clearly not happy about it, and Stephen just kind of ignoring anything he cares about like the dickhead he is. It dosen’t get any better as “recording” ends up just being Scott, Ramona, and Ratfaced Knacker watching bored with Joseph and Stephen work. Eventaully Scott and Ramona decide to get out of there as things are getting tensed between thing one and thing bitch, and leave.. and take Julie with them for some reason.

So the three have dinner with Lisa, Kim, and Jason before The Mummies Curse thankfully leaves. Jason thought they were friends.

We also get this exchange.

I mean.. she is the better option. She his THE option. But before we can get the obvious answer of

Stephen comes in with Knives. He smuggled her in. This leads to problems when Scott returns from the bathroom to find Queen Bitch throwing a bitch fit about him having brought her and screechs at her when she dares to talk to him “How do you even know my name?” Well Ted Cruz, you see when someone is an actually thoughtful and likes other people, they keep track of things about them and don’t constnatly tear them down or assume their partneer is automatically bonking a 17 year old instead of you know, actually forming something of a friendship and not shutting her out sensing she needs this friend group. Some people are not vacous piles of vitriol who care about nothing but themself and seem to go off at the slightest thing.

Scott takes Ramona home but finds a drunken barely awake wallace so no sexy times. Not that he could anyway as the next day is the meeting with Peter their landlord.

Peter reveals they’ll have to clear out by the 27th as their lease was for one year and their paid up.. as in only the first and last month. The two part melacholy knowing this sucks and isn’t a great situation. Then it’s time for Scott to work work, angelica, work work, eliza and peggy. After grueling day, can relate, he runs into a wisp on teh wend and steels himself for a fight.. okay he bitches about it being too hot but it’s Scott. so it’s expected. He does get a hit in on his mysterious persuer.. and that’s when we meet Roxy.

Via boob punch, something Scott’s not proud of but in his defense, as Roxy keeps complaning about it, he was blindly struggling for a hit and din’t know the next Ex, or any of them, were female.. not that Ramona didn’t suggest it loudly enough by empahsising “exes” but scott’s a bit of a fuckwit. She mentions “everyone allways remmebers you”.. which is kind of ominus and tells me she tried to hook back up with ramona despite her having a boyfriend and she rejected her. Still on good terms though. But this confusing encounter ends with Roxy vowing she’ll get him next time gadget, next time.

So we get some assorted slice of life scenes with the band, lisa and what have you as Scott tries to get in touch with Ramona but she keeps avoiding him. THat’s not worrysome at all. And Lisa brings up high school while drunk and clearly hits on Scott. He sidesteps it with her drunkness.. but this clearly isn’t over or going to stop being a problem.

Speaking of problems Wallace makes Scott confront the truth: He either needs to find a new place to live or commit to staying, though Wallace is trying to nudge him toward asking Ramona to move into her place. Scott starts thinking it over, it being very hard especially since, as Stephen points out this was his very first place of his own.. but Stephen also points out these things are temoporary.. right before Scott ducks from katana guy.

At work Scott wonders who it could be, though it turns out Stephen’s met him before, as he’s brought his family in here. So he’s PROBABLY not one of the exes.. but it leaves the question why he wants to cut Scott in half like Dewey Cox’s brother. But it turns out he’s nto the only enemy Scott’s casually running into as Roxy is there too.. with Ramona.

The two talk, clearly about Scott and Lisa with Roxy trying to convince her he’s cheating and Ramona rightfully trusting Scott: while he IS attracted to her, he’s been fighting it every step of the way. Scott storms over to find out what’s going on and while Ramona is more distracted by his new job, she eventually realizes Roxy did attack him and he simply dscribed her poorly when he mentioned the incident over the phone. Scott is confused as he dosen’t get it. Is she with one of the exes what? After some hiinting from both parties, and Roxy rightfully mocking him for not getting the obvious... he finallyg ets it in the grandest way possible.

So Roxy gets ready to fight and Scott can’t because sword, and gets fired in the background as he hides in Ramona’s bag and Ramona prepares to step in. Roxy screams at her for trusting him and defending him when Ramona.. just dosen’t her boyfriend to be bisected by her ex. A fight insues and a damn cool one at that. I honestly wish the movie had taken more from this, but simply didn’t have time leading it to instead be more like the envy fight with a bit of the Winfried Hailey fight from Free Scott Pilgrim.

Roxy chases her and Ramona rightly points out Scott can’t run forever but takes him into Subspace.. where Roxy heads them off, having “taught you everything you know bitch” leading to a cool fight in the wintery version of subspace. Again why THIS wasn’t used instead I have no real idea. We also find out she’s a half ninja but she eventually leaves afer Ramona presses that button.. but Rammy is actually apologetic about it and Roxy’s “I hope you and your 24 children are happy together comment” is telling.

Upon this readthrough of the volume.. I realized Roxy is the most layered and intresting of the exes next to Gideon himself. None of them are out and out terrible, but most of them have pretty simple motives: to kill Scott, ???, profit. Or in Todd’s case to kill scott, bang around and be a dick. But Roxy.. genuinely wants Ramona back. She’s the ONLY one who does: Gideon kinda does, but only in the sense that he wants her for his collection. But Roxy geninely still loves her, admitting so during this fight. And it’s not like she has no chance: out of the 7 exes she’s the ONLY one who parted with Ramona on anything resembling good terms. While intrestingly we don’t find out WHY they broke up, Ramona didn’t cheat on her like she did everyone else she was with. The two have coffee and hang out and Ramona geninely dosen’t even consider until Roxy tries to attack Scott that she’d really try killing him and tries her best to talk her out of it. But what holds Roxy back is her anger: She’s so bitter about the fact Ramona is bi or pan, so dedicated to viewing Ramona’s very orintation as a betryal (though Ramona calling it a phase dosen’t help and the movie RIGHTLY has Roxie comment on it and fly into a rage over it), and so driven to make sure the woman she loves dosen’t get hurt again that it blinds her to the fact Ramona dosen’t love her the same way anymore, and that while Scott is objectively a dick, and a cheater, and a greasy buttcrack pooflap, he is not a terrible person. A meh one sure, but he’s got good to him. She’s so biophobic she simply can’t see he’s a harmless moron.. well harmless to Ramona even with the cheating. He’s killed two people at this point and will kill again. Also she apparently has issues with only being a half ninja but this is never adressed. Point is Roxy’s really grown on me and is now probably my faviorite ex.

Scott and Ramona talk it over on their way to Sneaky Dees and Scott finally asks to move in and gets a yes. His response is downright adorable.

So at Sneaky Dee’s Young Neil is just a bit absolutely irate with Scott.. which isn’t fair as them not playing things is entirely on the blocky face asshole. Yell at him.. which he does, pointing out that they haven’t played shows in forever, and that the lady who owns Sneaky Dees not only runs shows, in the upstairs space, but has been asking them to play. Kim is rightly curious about this and to both Stephen just keeps saying “We’re recording right now.” And some of you may of wondered why I hate him. Well while he’s not exctly stellar in the first half in the second Stephen becomes goddman insufferable, slowly destroying the band for his affair and not giving one iota of a shit what anyone else wants. He’s a selfish, egomanical cheating prick. And yes I get it their recording an album.. but doing live shows would give them extra practice, MONEY, even if likely not a lot and exposure for said album. I get professoinal bands stop touring for a bit to do an album but you are not a professional band, and said bands still often iron out the album on the road. God you suck.

But while Scott sidesteps this argument he walks into another where Ramona confronts him about lisa about liking her.. and he rightly says if there was anything, which there was not it’s in the past. And while yes he is a cheater, she does not know this yet. This plot honestly would’ve worked better if she learned about the knives thing sooner, but instead she just comes off as paranoid for listening to Roxy about something that isn’t happening. Yes Scott’s been shown to be attracted to her.. but he’s been ashamed of it, fighting it and in denial about it, and is clealry all in with Ramona. Being attracted to someone else on a phsyical level does NOT mean your relationship is doomed.

Things get worse as he goes home to ruminate.. and instead sees a man’s Penis. And Wallace..is at his second most unsymapthetic, not letting Scott get a shirt or a bus pass or something like a decent human being for no goddamn reason. Usually when Wallace is a dick to Scott, Scott’s earned it and badly needs a slap in the face. Here he’s just being a prick because.. the plot needs him to? I dunno it dosen’t work for me. It’s in character, I just don’t have to like it.

So with no other options.. Scott ends up at Lisa’s. And so we get the last temptation of Scott. Lisa admits, embarassed that she’s been wearing sexy dresses and what not specifically to attract him, with Scott also mentioning how things are rough, Lisa tries to fight it herself pointing out he’s with ramona.. and when Scott points out they didn’t do anything in the past Lisa points out they should’ve.. and maybe they should now.

We fade to black as Scott ends up in a dream and finds Roxy, who naturally has the same skill and tries to Freddy Kruger him before he wakes. He finds Lisa but they didn’t do anything: Scott pushed her away and babbled about how much he loved Ramona instead. As i’ve said.... his heart was never with LIsa... and even when he was so close to giving in he couldn’t. It’s a tangible sign of growth: He screwed around on Knives with Ramona, and given how bad things were getting with Ramona, it would be oh so easy to once again ditch a relationship the minute he found something else and oh so understandable. But... he dosen’t. He loves Ramona even if he hasn’t said it, he wants to make this work, and he’s changed. She’s changed him. He’s not quite a good man yet.. bu he’s getting to be good enough. Love turned him from a skeezy dumbass into a far more loveable dumbass. Ramona’s gotten him to stop dating a teenager (even if again he cheated), face his past with envy to finally move on and now get a job. He’s realized just hwo much she means to his life and world and so he goes to tell her.

Riggghtttt after going to get his job back and works a shift, with steven wanting to punch his life in the balls. Stephen shut the fuck up. Just because Scott is lucky and your stuck dating satan’s scrotum does not mean you get to punch his life int he balls. Kim does, because he’s put her through more shit but not you.

He goes to second cup to talk to Stacey.. only to end up at the wrong one where Knives also now has a job... and we finally get an answer to who the mystery katana guy is...

Yup turns out wielding giant weapons in vengance runs in the family. As for how he knows about Scott her aunt mentioned her boyfriend, everyone freaked out and obviously while her mom was mentioned as knowing in volume 1, they did not tell her dad whose brain turned into an engine of vengance and defaced the shrine. While part of it is apparnetly racisim for Scott being white the fact is he clearly saw Scott’s photograph. The guy is 5 years older. I get him being protective. Still dosen’t justify cutting off his head. His balls maybe but not his head.

And then Scott ran, once agian finding a subspace entracne.. and this time we see inside ramona’s head and well...

Yeah.. that’s.. kind of fucked, and Ramona isn’t happy scott saw that, though she backs down once Scott explains..a nd then gets upset over him staying at Lisa’s but before SCott can tell her he loves her it turns out Roxy stayed over. So yeah, Ramona might of cheated, she tells him to alk it off and he runs around in a psycadelic haze of emtoinal confusion. And meets.. someone new...

Scott snaps out of his funk and ignores his doppleganger heading back for Ramona... whose fighting Mr. Chau. Scott left the door to Ramona’s head open and he followed him through Subspace. Scott lures him into the house and away from her only to run into Roxy. This leads to both of his attackers fighting and her wondering if Gideons ent him “Why does no one ever belivie in me?!”

She soon realize no i’ts just unrelated and calls Scotto ut on hiding behind not having a sword and behind her being a woman, caling it a flimsy excuse. I mean she’s tring to kil lhim. It’s okay to hit an enemy combatant. Scott realizes he has to stop running... and get real with ramona leading to a truly epic, romantic and heartfelt speech and given how far he’s come and just how heartfelt it is it’s a real sign of how deep he feels. Sure we’ve seen genuine chemstiry between the two.. but htis moment is a shit.. from a simple relationship.. into true love.

I may of only had a few but Relationships are not easy, They take work, they take time, they take patience and theyt ake love.. but if your willing to work with someone, look past some flaws and help them with the rest.. then it’s worth it. And Scott has finally realized it and for the first time in a while is running TOWARDS something difficult, actually working on this relationship and talking with his partner instead of running finding someone else or wallowing. He’s truly grown up. While he still has miles to go.. he’s taken about 50 steps forward with this. And as such given the kind of unvierse we’re in, as Ramona is genuinely touched by it he levels up a glowing sword with a heart shaped hilt coming out of his chest.. and realizing what’s happening he pulls it out....

So Scott faces off with roxy and in an awesomly short battle, their sords clash.. and he bisects her.

Scott then honestly talks down Mr Chau who leaves after a nod, and Ramona tells Scott she loves him two. The two make out and all is well.

One make out fades into another, as we cut to Scott moving in with Kim and Blockhead’s help. Well kinda they only had one box but they owed him one. He and wallace comiserate over the end of their time as roomies. They’ll always be friend but it’s truly the end of an era. Also Wallace gets off another bit of dickery as he’’s very glad it all worked out for scott...

Now there’s the Wallace I know and love. Dickish but just the right loveable kind of douchebag with that swagger.

Back at Knives house she’s apparenlty into somebody though who I have no idea, Mr Chau give sher his blessing and she.. apparenlty doesen’t know chinese. I dunno. As I said her subplot this go round was her weakest overall.

And so we end with the whole gang gathered to see Lisa off. It’s a REALLY nice shot, and one of the only times Wallace is seen with the Sex Bomb omb side of the group. Oh sure he goes to their shows and what not, but generally their never in the same vincinity so while there’s no interaction I still find this neat. Seriously the whole main cast is there, it’s a really lovely shot

Also Jason and Hollie.. who are getting awfully chummy. Whu Oh. And of course Craphole and Mouth Face are as likeable as ever.

So we jsut get a genuinely nice sene. Except Stephen and Julie reconciling. Fuck that. Please move on. And as everyone fondly wishes Lisa adeu and wish she stuck arond the res tof the series we end on Scott and Ramona snuggling, Scott asking her her birthday and finding out she’s 24, and they both will be come september. Scott wishes this moment could last.

They probperly snuggle as the volume ends on a high.

Final Thoughts:

Yeah.. Gets it Together is, on rexamination, DEFINTELY my faviorite of the 6. Besides personal value i’ts hte best contained story, contaning lots of character development, great character moments, jokes, and EASILY the best art so far, with goregouness and creativty abounding.

There is a problem here or there: Stephen and Julie’s subplot feels underbaked, and not just because I hates them, and there are several scenes that don’t further plot or character stuff. Ther’es also stuff that could’ve been expanded on.. but given this is still a pretty meaty graphic novel, it’s understandable why it wasn’t.. though it is why I’d love a streaming series since while the movie is excellent, a full series could expand on stuff from the books more Brian simply didn’t have time for. Knives also didn’t get a lot to do.

But their drowned out by tons of great decisions: Lisa was a wonderful additoin to the cast and I genuinely wish she’d stuck around, adding in some energy, blending well with the Sex Bomb Omb crowd, and having great dynamics with everyone and her arc with Scott is heartbreaking,knowing she can’t have him but wanting him anyway having never gottne proper closure on the man she’s always wanted. She’s a heartbreaking character and its nice to see her end in a decent place and on good terms with Scott, having let him go for both thier sakes.

And while Lisa is a highlight everyone is on their a game here for the most part apart from knives, girl hitler, and captain dumbass: Scott grows signfigantly but is funny as hell, Wallace has an intresting arc trying to nudge Scott out without being overt about it, scared to really confront him, Kim is in a happy and serene place for once and it shows. The villians are also intresting: While Mr Chau is a tad underbaked, he’s sitll a cool imposing presence. I do think he shoudl’ve had more to do with the plot.. but is still just so freaking cool it papers over that and him just.. disappearing after this like poor Lisa.

Roxy is far more intresting, having clearly more going on than we see and while I wish we’d got her backstory, she’s easily the most engaging of the exes, being the only one to actively compete with Scott (All her and ramona end up doing is making out a little it turned out), and have bigger stakes than just “The glasses wearing douche asked me to beat up my exes boyfriend and I was like alright.

All in all Gets it Together is really magical, the series high point, and just damn fun and it was a pleasure to go through

Next Month on Scott Pilgrim: It all falls down as we take a look into what once was my least faviorite Album, vs the unvierse. Two perfect assholes try and murder scott with Robutts, his relationship and band crumble and things get sad so very very sad.

Next on this blog: More LIlo and Stitch! The Proud Family come to Kauai and get into a fight with our heroes. Also wizard kelly... who if nothing else is now far more tolerable now i’ve had to spend another volume with the wicked bitch of the west. Touche universe touche. See you at the next rainbow.

#scott pilgrim #ramona flowers #wallace wells #roxanne richter #knives chau #stephen stills #julie power #mr chau #stacey pilgrim #neil nordgraf #young neil #comics #oni press #scotrospective #lisa miller #kim pine #jospeh

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lloydskywalkers · 4 years

Text

this is probably like...150 percent nOT what you were looking for when you asked this, but i can only write so much Garmadad Angst per month, and i’m saving the rest for angst week :’( also two paragraphs into this i remembered Bragi mentioning that Garmadon is able to shapeshift into about anything he wants, and my brain seized on that and ran a little too wild, so the result is!! probably crack, but i had fun with it :’D

Garmadon means to leave the boy in peace. Truly, he does, because leaving the boy in peace means that Garmadon gets peace, as he won’t have anyone to go hurling accusations at him with pathetically teary eyes at any given moment. It also means he doesn’t have to deal with the infuriating mess of…feelings…that always seem to go hand in hand with the boy. If Garmadon had any sense, he’d head as far from the boy as he possibly can and forget about him entirely, and everyone’s life would be vastly improved on the whole.

If Garmadon had any sense. And if those infuriating, truly hellish feelings ever stopped making an appearance whenever Garmadon’s thoughts drifted to the boy, which was unfortunately…often.

Infuriating, truly.

Perhaps Garmadon isn’t as sensible as he’d like to think he is, but he’s not selfless, either. So instead of sparing the boy’s peace any thought, perhaps he directs his efforts to tracking the boy down. And perhaps, instead of trying to banish the boy from his brain, he mentally marks where the boy tends to show up outside his brother’s ugly monastery. Perhaps he begins to use his Oni-given shifting abilities to blend in rather than stand out, for the sole purpose of tailing the boy. It’s only for Garmadon’s selfish reasons.

Because — because this is a selfish errand, of course. If Garmadon can’t have any peace, then the boy doesn’t get any either. It’s clean-cut reasoning, no sentiment behind it.

He doesn’t want to be caught, however, under any circumstances. The idea of having to explain himself — or worse, endure the boy’s annoying yelling again — is almost enough to turn Garmadon away entirely. But the pathetic, disgusting need to figure out what the boy’s supposed to be to him has taken control now, so Garmadon throws caution to the wind.

Well, not entirely. He’s not a shapeshifter for nothing. He simply…needs to figure out how to use that to his advantage, first. He’s been using his favored form — a hulking, dark wolf with teeth that could tear a human in half. Garmadon’s been quite satisfied with it, as any tiny human he’s run into flees screaming at the sight, but he’s beginning to think the form is not, perhaps, the best one for tailing the boy. He’s trying to be inconspicuous, and that’s rather difficult when the red ninja charges him with his hands on fire in a misguided attempt to keep him from tearing the Green Ninja’s throat out.

Which is not Garmadon’s intent, obviously, but the fire ninja doesn’t know that, and it’s not as if Garmadon wants to admit what his real intent is. Tearing the boy’s throat out is at least a less humiliating endeavor to pretend he’s on.

Instead of snapping the red ninja up like a pint-sized snack, then, Garmadon begins to study the boy. After carefully observing him, and evading several more of the red ninja’s attempts to charbroil his demonic werewolf form, Garmadon comes to a conclusion. There is, undoubtedly, one form he can take that will not only throw off any suspicion, but ensnare the boy entirely to his whims.

To his dismay, the issue with this is that the boy has terrible taste.

**************

He tests his theory somewhere in the middle of his fourth week of observing stalking his boy. His new form is irritating, to say the least, as he’s only able to reach up to the humans’ kneecaps in it, but it does come in handy for slipping in and out of small spaces. He’s able to get much closer to the boy than he ever has before, practically trailing his heels through the open marketplace in the small village he’s in today.

What a fool, Garmadon thinks to himself, as the boy leans over with his hands braced on his knees, putting him eye level with the bright-eyed child who’s rambling at him. It’d be so easy to kill him right now, Garmadon could manage it in his sleep. He’s practically in danger of falling asleep as it is, listening to the boy blabber on to the child.

Blah blah blah, I bet you’d make an amazing ninja, blah blah blah, what utter sentimental garbage, Garmadon thinks haughtily. The boy is clearly lying through his teeth. This child would make a sub-par ninja at best, if he survived that long. Or perhaps his boy is looking to recruit cannon fodder, Garmadon muses. At any rate—

“Oh hey, a kitty!”

Garmadon’s eyes snap up to find the child’s stubby finger pointed directly at him. Before he can flee, the boy turns around as well, bright green eyes widening as they fix on him. For a moment, Garmadon fears the boy’s seen straight through him—

Then his lips curve into a smile, and he crouches down lower to offer a hand. “Hey, kitty,” the boy’s voice is disgustingly soft and gentle as he addresses him. “What are you doing out here all alone?”

Of course, Garmadon laughs to himself. The boy’s ensnared immediately, just as he’d thought. Ever the fool, his boy.

“You don’t have a collar or anything…are you homeless? I wonder if…”

What an idiot. Garmadon would be smirking if he could, relishing in how utterly oblivious the boy is. Honestly, what a—

“—and it’s been getting pretty cold out at night lately, so I think I can get away with bringing you home.”

—wait.

That’s all the warning Garmadon gets before the boy’s hands close around his middle, neatly scooping him up and trapping him firmly in his arms. Garmadon has a moment or two of sheer disbelief — of sheer fury, that this boy’s dared to handle him as such—

Before Garmadon remembers that he’s taken the form of a fluffy, scruffy cat, designed perfectly to capture his boy’s pathetic heart, and realizes he probably has no one to blame for this but himself.

**************

The boy is so revoltingly cheerful as he kidnaps Garmadon, he almost debates shifting into a bug and letting the boy step on him, just to put him out of his misery. It’d be more tolerable if the boy would talk about anything useful, but instead he’s just chattering away happily, like yanking some mangy cat off the street is the best thing that’s ever happened in his poor, miserable existence. On one hand, it’s a drastic change from the surly, angry way the boy normally glares at Garmadon, so at least there’s variety. On the other hand, Garmadon would almost rather the boy shout what a terrible person he is than deal with his infuriatingly sunny disposition.

He puts up with it until the boy gets him halfway up the steps of the monastery, at which point Garmadon finally remembers he’s got claws in this form — but by then it’s too late. The boy’s already gotten him this far, and Garmadon resigns himself to his fate as he’s taken inside his brother’s monastery, and immediately greeted by the rest of his irritating little ninja minions.

“Took you long enough, green machine, we almost ate without y— tell me that’s not what I think it is.”

“Um…it’s not what you think it is?” The boy seems entirely unapologetic as he ducks beneath the black ninja’s arm, darting behind the others.

The black ninja groans, and the water ninja speaks up instead. “What is this, the third time this month? Lloyd, you know what Sensei’s said.”

For a moment, Garmadon has a brief burst of hope that his brother has, in a roundabout way, done him a favor for once.

“Aw, c’mon,” the boy says, and Garmadon resists the urge to yowl as he clutches him tighter against his chest. It’s a tempting position, admittedly, as the boy’s neck is right there, nice and exposed. But Garmadon can also see the red ninja eyeing him from across the room, and he does prefer to be un-cooked.

“It’s cold out, and he was wandering all alone by himself!” the boy continues, his eyes plaintive. “I couldn’t just leave him.”

“You could’ve taken it to the shelter,” the blue ninja points out. The boy glares at him.

“I didn’t ask for your opinion, Jay.”

“You should be so lucky as to get my opinion.”

“I suppose a night wouldn’t hurt,” the white ninja finally speaks up, rubbing his temple. Garmadon spots the silver-haired nindroid girl behind him, utterly unconcerned with the situation as she taps at her phone. Garmadon decides he likes her best.

“I dunno, Lloyd,” the red ninja mutters, stalking over and glaring at the boy’s hands. “I mean, look, it basically tore your fingers to shreds! And you want to keep it?”

“I’m sure it was just scared,” the boy huffs, casually dabbing at one of the weeping cuts Garmadon managed to score along his hand with the edge of his gi. Garmadon wishes he could snort in this form. Scared. As if his boy is even remotely frightening.

“It’ll just be one night,” the boy continues, fixing the red ninja with his eyes. “Just one little night. Please?”

The red ninja’s expression contorts, and he heaves a sigh. “Yeah, sure. ‘One night’. Haven’t heard that one eighty times before.”

“I mean it this time,” the boy says, patting the red ninja on the shoulder as he triumphantly hauls Garmadon deeper into the monastery with him. To Garmadon’s despair, he catches the look on the red ninja’s face as he goes, that clearly says the boy is lying.

Well, this is a predicament, Garmadon muses. Looking at things pragmatically, though, he did want to get closer to the boy. And this way, he’ll at least have an excellent view into the ongoings of his brothers’ students’ lives. Not that he’s particularly interested, as all they’ve done so far is overcook two separate pots of rice and accidentally set a dishtowel on fire, but there could be…something, of use, for him to spy on eventually.

Or maybe not, Garmadon thinks in despair, as the blue ninja mistakenly zaps the toaster into oblivion, the black one yelping at him as the white one wearily puts out the ensuing fire.

With a tiny sigh, Garmadon instead watches as his boy sticks brightly-colored bandaids across the half-healing cuts on his hands, without the slightest damper to his sunny expression. He curls up on himself in disappointment. The boy is tougher to crack than he’d expected. Perhaps he should simply resign himself to enduring the next day or so. It can’t be that difficult to tolerate the boy until he’s free.

“I think I’m gonna call him Marbles, for now.”

Never mind. Garmadon’s going to kill him within the night.

**************

The boy survives the night, but only by the slimmest margin of Garmadon’s mercy. Most of this generosity is due to the passable bed the boy makes up for him, as opposed to dragging him into the ninja’s shared room. Had that been the case, Garmadon would have murdered all of them, but fate stayed her hand this time.

This doesn’t answer why Garmadon stays the next two nights as well, however. He tells himself it’s simply because he’s gathering what information he can about the ninja, observing their moves and uncovering their weaknesses. This excuse would probably hold more weight if Garmadon hadn’t napped straight through their practices, and if the only weakness he’s uncovered is that half the ninja can’t cook to save their lives. His boy can, as the food he sneaks Garmadon at least isn’t toxic. Of course, Garmadon’s also currently a cat, which could explain a thing or two, but he isn’t complaining. Yet.

All things considered, though, there’s really no excuse for why Garmadon hasn’t made his escape yet. He ponders this as he slips out the monastery doors late that night, shrugging off his cat form with a grimace, stretching his arms in mild discomfort. Holding a form this long isn’t painful, exactly — and holding the form of a cat is child’s play — but it does get uncomfortable after a while. Garmadon’s just stretching his lower right arm out, scowling as he does, when he hears a quiet intake of breath from behind him.

“Oh.”

Garmadon whirls around, only to come face to face with the nindroid girl, her green eyes wide and glowing in the darkness.

Ah, Garmadon thinks. This could pose a problem.

He stares back at her, momentarily lost. He’s taken a liking to the girl — Pixie, or something, he hasn’t cares much for their names. She’s quieter than the others, and a good deal more perceptive. She also knows how to keep to her own business, a valued trait Garmadon finds painfully lacking in this realm. Unfortunately, she also appears to be quite smart, given the way her eyes narrow on him.

He finally clears his throat, scrambling for anything that will free him from this mess. “Good evening,” he manages. “I was just — leaving, that’s all. Yes, leaving.”

The girl’s silvery hair glints in the moonlight as she tilts her head. “You know, I should tell Lloyd about you.”

Garmadon freezes, panic clouding his brain. A pang of regret sparks in him. Perhaps he’ll have to kill her after all.

“But,” she continues, her eyes gleaming. “Then I would have to deal with the fallout.”

Garmadon feels a flicker of hope.

“Also, by my calculations, it will be vastly more amusing to watch it all unfold,” the girl nods. “Very well. I will keep your secret.”

Well. That went better than he expected. He knew he liked the girl for a reason. Garmadon gives a sharp nod of thanks, and makes to hastily flee the scene before the girl’s voice stops him.

“Oh, and Lord Garmadon?”

There’s a flicker of some odd emotion at the title she’s given him, but Garmadon brushes it off, turning to meet her gaze.

“Hurt them and I’ll end you, of course.” Her voice grows glacial in the span of seconds, and Garmadon, warlord of infinite power and destruction, begins to think he might fear for his life.

“Duly noted,” he swallows.

The girl nods to herself, seemingly satisfied. She pauses, as if considering something, then speaks up again. “Not that I’ve said anything to you,” she says, carefully. “But Lloyd likes to sit out by the pond in the evenings, with the fish.”

Garmadon has no idea where the sudden rush of heat to his face comes from, but he most certainly does not appreciate it. He scowls at her. “Who’s Lloyd?” he snaps.

The girl gives a tiny, quiet sigh. “Someday,” she mutters to herself. “Someday, one of you will see sense.”

**************

Garmadon has no intention of taking the nindroid girl’s advice. He tells himself this, even as he snakes around the boy’s legs near the monastery pond that evening, eyeing him shrewdly. The boy appears a good deal more unguarded than he’s been, dangling his bare feet off the little bridge’s edge as he watches the fish swim. He brightens when he catches sight of Garmadon, making an odd clicking sound with his tongue as he gently pets the back of his head.

Garmadon forces himself to remember that he’s brought this on himself.

“Sneaking around again, huh?” the boy murmurs. Garmadon stiffens, caught off-guard. The boy’s expression is still relaxed and unguarded, though, so he must be rambling for the sake of talking again.

His boy is an odd one, Garmadon thinks, watching as he tosses tiny food flakes to the goldfish swimming lazily below them.

“I don’t blame you,” the boy continues. “It’s a nice evening to be out. Nothing’s on fire, this time.”

Garmadon doesn’t even want to know.

“I know you probably think I’m hiding again,” the boy sighs. “That’s what Kai’s been saying. But I’m not, really. I just — needed some space, you know? Last mission wasn’t…it wasn’t great.”

Garmadon’s head perks up in interest, his eyes gleaming. So the boy wants to spill information about their missions, does he? This is turning out better than he’d hoped.

Yes, Garmadon thinks gleefully, as the boy rambles on. Tell me all your secrets, you stupid boy. Tell me how I can finally defeat you entirely.

“I mean, it definitely could’ve been worse, like that one time with all the gasoline cans, but still…”

By the end of the hour, all Garmadon’s gathered is that the boy talks entirely too much. He’s apparently self-conscious of the way his eyes change color, but what is Garmadon supposed to do with that one? Make fun of him until his soul is crushed? Unlikely. The boy’s like an elusive bug, attempting to crush him doesn’t end well.

He also learns that the boy cares a good deal about his team, which Garmadon already knows. Everything else is just meaningless chatter, as Garmadon could care less about whatever girl’s left him with residual trauma this time. He does, however, also learn that the boy loves the little goldfish, which he can work with.

“—and I don’t want it to sound like I’m complaining! I’m not, really, but…but it’d just be nice to get a break every once in a while, you know?” The boy trails off with a sigh, scratching absently at one of his ears. Garmadon ignores him, eyeing the fish the boy’s just tossed an extra flake to and preparing to strike the blow.

The boy hums contently. “You know, you’re really not such a bad c— Marbles no, not the goldfish!”

It’s a close battle, but the boy manages to snatch him up before his jaws can close around the fish. Garmadon ends up dragged soaking wet from the koi pond by an equally soaking boy, his blond hair plastered all over his forehead as he scowls, wringing the edge of his gi out with one hand and firmly hauling Garmadon inside with the other. It’s a humiliating picture, he’s sure, but the satisfaction of hearing the boy yelp when Garmadon snatches his towel and runs helps slightly.

**************

Garmadon plans on leaving that night. He does, truly — all he’s gotten for his trouble so far is vague amusement from how idiotic his brother’s students can be, which, while entertaining, is far from useful. There’s nothing keeping him here but the infuriating mess of emotions he feels toward to the boy, like there’s some cursed connection between them, and Garmadon’s not supposed to be acknowledging the existence of that in the first place. So he makes a promise to himself to leave the monastery tonight and never look back. And he’s preparing to do just that, except he makes the fatal mistake of checking on the boy one last time.

He only means to sneer in his direction once more — or as best a cat can sneer — but instead he freezes, watching the boy sniffle quietly in his sleep.

Ah. He’s crying again. Garmadon frowns at the scene. The boy does seem to cry in his sleep quite often, doesn’t he. What does he even have to be crying about, anyways? Except perhaps the time Garmadon put him in a coma, but that was so long ago, surely the boy must’ve gotten over it by now. And granted, there was that time the boy seemed to die for a moment, but he’s clearly still alive, isn’t he?

It could, of course, just be that the boy’s crying about his friends — Garmadon doesn’t understand it, but like he’s seen, the boy cares an awful lot for them. And from what he remembers, the boy’s supposedly lost a few of them…twice now, was it? It’s not like Garmadon keeps up with them, but he knows the boy got them back. Really, he’s got nothing to be crying about at all, Garmadon thinks, haughtily.

The boy’s expression scrunches up in distress, looking the picture of misery where he’s half-tangled in blankets. This sparks an entirely foreign emotion in Garmadon’s cold soul, which he decides must be another level of disappointment in the boy. That doesn’t sound right, of course, because Garmadon is familiar with disappointment, and this emotion isn’t it, but—

Well, he’s not going to try and figure out what else it could be.

The boy sniffles miserably again, and Garmadon huffs in irritation. Digging his claws into the boy’s bedding, he hauls his cursedly tiny body onto the bed and gingerly picks his way across the tangled blankets, pausing to stare at the boy. Hm. Still crying. He ought to wake up sometime soon, Garmadon thinks, expression furrowing in concern. What if the boy’s so hopelessly pathetic that he cries enough to drown himself in his sleep? Garmadon can’t have that. They’ve still got unfinished business, and the boy can’t be killed by tears when Garmadon’s the only one with the right to that honor.

Deciding he has no other option, Garmadon pads his way onto the boy’s chest, leans over his face, and licks him on the nose.

The boy’s eyes snap open wide in alarm. He gives a muffled shriek, vaulting backwards as he flails wildly in panic. Garmadon is sent flying, but he’s awarded a perfect view of the way the boy accidentally slams into his own bedpost and goes sprawling to the floor.

Oh, but he wishes he could cackle properly in this form.

It takes the better part of an hour for the boy to convince his friends that he’s not being murdered in his sleep. It takes another half hour to convince them that he’s not in any overwhelming distress, and an additional quarter hour to convince the red ninja that he’s not lying. By the time the boy manages to get them back asleep enough for him to sneak out to the monastery rooftop, Garmadon is fully regretting not having left when he could. At least the open road would have been quiet enough to sleep on.

“Sorry about all that,” the boy apologizes, as he gently sets Garmadon down next to him on the roof. Garmadon sniffs haughtily. As if he’d accept any apology from the boy.

“I don’t normally react like that,” the boy continues, his voice soft and rasping. “Tonight was just — I mean, I don’t normally have nightmares like that.”

Garmadon may not know how the boy’s mind functions, but he knows when the boy is lying. The boy seems to realize it too, pulling his knees to his chest and crossing his arms over them, propping his chin up dejectedly. He’s quiet for a moment, and Garmadon yawns, tail drifting lazily over the rooftop where he sits beside the boy.

After a while, the boy shifts, sitting cross-legged instead as his hands play anxiously with the edge of his nightshirt.

“I guess I just—” The boy cuts off, taking a sharp breath before starting back up again.

“I thought they’d stop, you know?” he mumbles. “Once I got far enough. I mean, I can’t — I can’t have nightmares about it forever, right?”

The boy’s voice cracks in desperation, and he swallows thickly. “If it was — if it was just her, I could maybe — but it’s him, too, and I—”

The boy buries his face in his hands, his shoulders shuddering. Despite his better judgement, Garmadon pads quietly up to him, carefully placing his head atop the boy’s knee. The boy gives a shuddery exhale, pulling his hands from his face. He gives Garmadon a watery smile, reaching a gentle hand toward him again.

“Anyways, I’m sorry I knocked you off the bed. You’re a good listener, for a cat,” the boy says quietly, stroking behind his ear. Garmadon resists making a face.

Stupid boy. Stupid boy and his pathetic emotions, making Garmadon feel like he should stay. He really ought to make sure the boy hasn’t taken up witchcraft as a part time hobby. That would explain things, at least. It would certainly make more sense than Garmadon caring for his boy, or some ridiculous nonsense like that.

…the boy. Not his boy, that would be—

Well, actually, Garmadon muses. That doesn’t sound entirely off. Perhaps, in time, he might—

No, no, no. Before Garmadon can lose his mind entirely, he straightens up, opens his jaws, and snaps down tightly on the boy’s finger.

The boy barely even flinches, giving a weary sigh as he tugs Garmadon away instead, pressing his finger against the edge of his nightshirt. Oh, Garmadon despises him.

**************

“I do, odd robot girl, I truly despise him,” Garmadon gestures furiously, when he’s back in his normal form again. The nindroid girl watches him with blank, unblinking green eyes. “I don’t understand the slightest thing about him. How did I lose to this boy?”

“He’s a decent fighter, when he tries,” the girl shrugs.

Garmadon glares at her. “That isn’t my problem!” he hisses. “I don’t know why I’m still here.”

The girl eyes him, carefully. “Then leave.”

Garmadon opens his mouth, then shuts it tightly. He crosses all four arms, trying to find a response that won’t make him sound foolish. The girl snorts, rolling her eyes.

“Here’s an idea,” she says. “How about, instead of stalking your estranged son in the form of a domestic house pet, you have a normal conversation with him instead. As yourself.”

Garmadon scoffs. “That’s the most ridiculous idea I’ve ever heard,” he sneers. “If he sees me walking up with a sword he’ll attack me immediately.”

The nindroid rolls her eyes again, which Garmadon would take severe offense to if she wasn’t in a position to blow his cover at any moment. “Then don’t bring a sword?”

“You make no sense,” Garmadon frowns. “What am I supposed to fight him with, then?”

The girl blinks at him, long and slow, then pinches the bridge of her nose. “FSM, help me,” she murmurs.

“And even if I get past that, what am I supposed to say to him, anyways?” Garmadon demands. “I put him in a coma once, should I just gloss over that?”

“Perhaps avoid bringing it up quite as much, if you know what’s good for you,” she clips tightly. She sighs, seemingly steadying herself. “I’ve heard they make cards.”

Garmadon tilts his head. “For putting someone in a coma?”

The girl looks as if she’d like to put herself in a coma. Or him, Garmadon can’t quite tell.

“…maybe a cake, instead?”

Perhaps they’d both be better off in a coma, Garmadon thinks despairingly.

“I can’t go on like this,” he finally says. “I can’t live the rest of my life as the boy’s cat. I’d sooner end myself. If I’m going to…confront him, I have to abandon this form."

“You can’t just disappear,” the nindroid girl tells him, sternly. “You’ll break Lloyd’s heart.”

“If I continue to remain in this form, I’m going to break a lot more than that,” Garmadon retorts.

The girl sighs, rubbing her temples briefly. “Aright, fine. I am going to have a friend,” she says. “That suddenly is in desperate, longing need of a cat. This request will coincidentally come right as Sensei Wu sends the ninja out on a week-long mission. Lloyd will be disappointed, but common sense should ensure that he does not break his heart over the loss.”

She pauses, her eyebrows furrowing. “I hope.”

“Very well, then,” Garmadon nods. “I will conveniently disappear, and decide the best course of action for exchanging words with the boy. And I will…consider leaving my sword behind.”

“FSM help me,” the girl mutters again. Garmadon takes that as distinct approval for his plan, and begins to make his escape, basking in the relief of leaving his ridiculous cat form behind.

Hm. He pauses. His boy will be quite disappointed to find his cat vanished. He’ll probably shed more useless tears over it, actually. Not that Garmadon feels any guilt over that, but he does feel an uncomfortable kind of twist in his gut, that might vaguely resemble regret.

He turns back to the girl, hesitating. She looks at him curiously. “Make sure the boy doesn’t drown himself in his sleep,” Garmadon tells her. “He tends to cry a lot.”

The girl’s mouth falls open, and she blinks rapidly. “I — alright.”

Garmadon nods to himself, satisfied. Now, he can take his leave in peace. He has a conversation to plan.

**************

In the end, Garmadon has no earthly idea why he’s taking some nindroid’s advice. It’s terrible advice, really, and yet here he is, on his brother’s monastery doorstep, without even an apology cake in hand.

So he didn’t take her advice entirely, perhaps. He’s not in his cat form, at least. No, this time he’s determined to confront the boy face to face, and no longer being shorter than the boy will greatly improve matters.

Steeling himself, Garmadon knocks gingerly on the monastery door, feeling rather foolish. Smashing the doors in with a blast of purple power would be much more to his liking, but he suspects that might not be the best way to approach the boy. Not unless he’s looking to get yelled at, again.

The quiet sound of footsteps echoes from beyond the walls, and the doors finally swing open. Garmadon is met with the familiar features of his boy, now properly half his height, where he belongs. Excellent, Garmadon thinks. This will make things much simpler.

“Ah, good,” he greets him. “It’s you.”

The boy looks as if he's been frozen on the spot. He stares at Garmadon with his mouth half-open, his hand paused on the door handle. Garmadon frowns at him.

“Is something wrong with your face?” Come to think of it, the boy’s eyes do look terribly wide. Perhaps he’s been poisoned? Garmadon wouldn’t doubt it, with how careless the boy can be.

The boy makes a strangled sound, and his hand falls limply from the doorknob. “I-I-you—” He cuts off, shaking his head and blinking, as if Garmadon is a mirage. “You’re…here. You’re here?”

“Yes,” Garmadon’s frown deepens. “Obviously.”

The boy stares at him for another beat, before jerking himself back into motion. “Oh, r-right,” he stammers, knitting his hands together anxiously. He looks half as if he wants to run for his sword, and half as if he wants to run himself through with his sword. “You, uh, can I…was there something? You needed? Is something wrong?”

The boy’s expression suddenly dissolves into panic. “Wait, they’re not back, are they?” he asks frantically. “The Oni? Because I thought we—”

“What? No, the Oni aren’t back, don’t be ridiculous,” Garmadon rolls his eyes. “You’re as dramatic as your uncle.”

“I, um, okay.” The boy looks frustrated with himself. Garmadon figures he has reason to, with how his mouth seems to be malfunctioning. Normally the boy is much better at stringing words together. Garmadon dismisses the concern, speaking up again.

“You’re also very annoying,” he tells him, bluntly.

The boy blinks, looking taken aback. Garmadon continues before he can form a retort. “See, I should’ve just killed you, and then you wouldn’t be so annoying, but the thing is, I don’t really want to kill you.”

The boy gives an odd, choking cough. Garmadon hopes he hasn’t actually been poisoned, as it’s looking more likely by the second. He decides to hurry on with his point, just in case.

“Yes, it’s quite irritating. Do you have any idea why that might be?”

“Why you — why you don’t…want to kill me?”

“No, weren’t you listening?” Garmadon snaps. He pauses, considering. “Well, yes, that too. But what I meant was if you knew why I feel like I’m connected to you.”

“Con-connected,” the boy repeats, slowly. Something painfully hopeful bursts across his expression, before he violently wrestles it back to careful caution. “You…feel connected, to me?”

“That’s what I just said,” Garmadon huffs. “Are you sure you’re listening? It seems like you aren’t.”

“No, I am, I just—” The boy rubs a hand across his face, looking slightly dizzy. “I, um. Okay, connected. Well, I mean,” the boy swallows, staring intently at the ground. “I wa—am, kind of, your son.” The last bit comes out in a whisper, and Garmadon barely catches it. He pauses, mulling that over.

“Yes, you’re right,” Garmadon admits. “I do suppose that could have something to do with it.”

The boy makes another strangled sound, as if his brain has broken. Perhaps it’s not poison, and he’s taken too many hits to the head again? If that’s the case, Garmadon should probably come back later, when the boy can think straight. Or at least form a full sentence.

“Well, this has been very enlightening,” he remarks, brusquely. “I’ll be leaving now.”

“O-oh,” the boy’s expression falls.

“Yes, I’ve had a long week,” Garmadon continues. “We will have to continue our conversation another time.”

The boy’s eyes go wide, his mouth falling open. It’s becoming a common expression on him, Garmadon observes. “W-we will?”

Garmadon nods. “Within the next week or two, at latest.”

The boy’s making that strangled sound again. Garmadon really should be on his way, so the boy can fix whatever’s gone wrong with him. “Goodbye, then,” he says shortly, before stalking away. He gets about three steps down before that odd feeling hits him again, and Garmadon hesitates, warring with himself. He finally sighs, turning back around.

“Oh, and boy,” he calls. “Go to bed earlier. Or at least stop waiting until you’re asleep to cry. It can be dangerous, you know.”

The boy makes a wheezing sound, like he’s been punched, and his eyes all but leave his head with how wide they are. Garmadon returns to making his way down the steps, confident in the knowledge that he has, at least, imparted some wisdom.

He does glance back one last time at the boy, and immediately has to bite back a laugh. The boy opens his mouth once, fails to make any sound, then slumps back against the door frame, sinking to the doorstep with his head in his hands, staring blankly at the ground like it’s hit him in the face with a shovel.

“Hey Lloyd, did you find out who was at the do — woah, Lloyd, are you okay?!”

Garmadon doesn’t restrain the laugh this time, shaking his head. Ah, he might be a soft-hearted fool, but his boy is quite the amusing one.

#lego ninjago #ninjago #garmadon #lloyd garmadon #everyone else is there too but mainly them #oh and pixal #do not ask me why my first instinct was to write 'garmadon disguises as cat'#bc i have no answer ghdnkfjg #my fic #answered

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a-fanatic-fangirl-requests · 4 years

Note

I'm so glad you write for Gaara as well! For my request I was wondering if I could request a bit of angst but with a good ending. When they have a day off, he and his s/o are working in their shared garden together when suddenly s/o gets bitten by a snake that was hiding between the plants and they need to get rushed to the hospital because of the poison. They do get better, luckily and maybe Gaara helps them rehabilitate? Thank you in advance!

So, now that I’m actually answering this, I admit it may not be as angsty as I would have liked it. But…I still think it’s a cute one with a good ending! I hope you like it! I also made the reader gender neutral in this one since it was a bit easier to do than some of my other ones.

As Beneath, So Above (Gaara x Reader)

Warning(s): Angsty, poison, injury, I dunno

Word Count: 2,263

An annoyed groan filled the air of the lush rooftop garden. You had attempted to hang a potted plant on a post, but it was just out of your reach, even with your (H/F) stature. But as soon as the annoyed groan was about to pass your lips, the soft sound of sand moving surrounded you. Glancing down, you saw sand gathering to give you that extra height you needed. “Thank you, Gaara.” You hummed as you hung up the plant, turning it a bit to be exactly how you wanted it. The sand eased you back down onto the ground and you had turned to your husband. “Thanks for not watching me struggle. I’m sure Kankuro would have had a good laugh.”

“I’m not my brother.” He said softly, carefully pulling any weeds that had somehow managed to get up there.

“I know, I know. That’s why I married you after all.” You said, walking over to take sit next to him, the faintest tinge of pink dusting his cheeks.

“And I am grateful.”

You leaned over and placed a gentle kiss to his cheek. “Me too. Especially since you took the day off.”

“We both needed it.” He replied, his focus still on the care of the garden he made for the two of you. Coming from Konoha where things were considerably more lively in terms of vegetation compared to the desert in Suna, Gaara thought it would be a nice wedding gift to give you and that the both of you could take care of.

However, with water scarce, it was hard to keep the plants properly watered. That’s why you opted for more rugged plants that could withstand going without water for a while if something happened. But, you had set up an irrigation system that pulled water from underground. This system eventually became implemented throughout the village, effectively ending any possible water shortage. It was the rule though, that water still be used in moderation if possible.

It was this work that you were taking a break from. You were almost done with it too and as to celebrate, Gaara suggested to rearrange the garden a bit.

Much better with your mind, tools, and hands, you were no ninja—but still prideful in getting things done yourself. But when it came to lifting heavy loads, that’s where Gaara came in. His sand, and sometimes himself aided you greatly. He could move and change soil far easier than you could, so you let him.

“(F/N)?” A quiet voice asked, making you jump a little. It seems you spaced out under the warm sun and leaning on your husband’s shoulder.

“Yes?” You asked, looking back at him with wide (E/C) eyes.

He pointed a pale finger near where the door of the roof was. “Would you mind planting those flowers? The weeding is taking longer than expected.” It always took longer than expected, not that it was a bad thing. Gaara made sure that no weed had even a chance to pop up if he had anything to do about it. He couldn’t let it ruin the hard work the both of you have done.

Nodding your head, you ran your hands over your (H/T) (H/C) hair. The wooden crate the potted flowers sat in didn’t seem too heavy. Although, it took you a moment to lift them up after some much-needed self-encouragement. Taking them over to a corner and setting them down, you had to smile a little at how wonderful your life was and basked it all in.

Gaara’s gaze had been on you when he noticed you struggle to pick up the box. He sometimes forgot that you didn’t have the strength of shinobi—after all, working day in and day out with them makes it hard to remember not everyone was one—so he was about to get up and help you before you lifted it up and slowly made your way to one of the empty corners. A smile graced his features as he watched you, (S/C) skin illuminated by the desert sun, the gentle breeze ruffling your (H/L) hair, he was so glad he literally ran into you all those years ago.

He turned back to his weeding task to give you your peace and let you accomplish the task yourself.

You gently removed the flowers from the pots, crumbling the soil away a bit to break up the packed roots after having dug a small hole for the flowers to be placed in. One by one, you did this until you picked up one of the pots, it felt a bit heavier than the other ones. Shrugging it off, you stuck your fingers around the edge of the soil to loosen it before you pulled it out.

All was going well until you felt a sharp sting to the top of your hand, making you recoil and drop the clay pot, it shattered against the ground.

The sudden noise made Gaara turn around, wanting to make sure you were ok. However, the moment he saw a snake slither away into one of the bushes made his heart drop.

“Gaara? I don’t…feel so good….” You mumbled.

He immediately appeared beside you, taking your hand in his to examine it. The puncture wound was quickly turning purple and your shivering form and the snake’s appearance made him fear the worst: poison.

The Kazekage picked you up in his arms and jumped off the roof, letting his sand rush him to the medical center. You would be ok. You had to be. “Stay awake. We’re almost there.”

You did your best to nod. “I’ll try.” You whimpered, tears forming in your eyes at how fast the pain was spreading. It felt like your veins were on fire. His hold on you tightened the more you began to shiver and pant. “Who knew…something so small…could be so strong?” In a situation like this, you had to do your best to try and laugh it off.

Gaara had given you a look as if you had gone mad. How were you being so calm? “I…suppose that is the case.” He answered back, still not liking how your body was reacting to the poison at all as it tried to fight it off.

He quickly made his way into the hospital, with everyone from ninja, nurses, and the injured or ill stopped what they were doing to look at the worried Gaara. It wasn’t everyday that the Kazekage appeared, much less looking so concerned.

He quickly kept walking, nearly running, past the admittance area as he knew where he was going and what needed to be done. There was a poison specialist that would surely be able to help you. Gaara had one trained due to the amount of different poisons people come across in the area.

The specialist was a little shocked as well to see the ninja leader but let them lay you on a bed. By now, your body was covered in sweat and shivering even worse. He looked towards the doctor as he knelt and held your non-injured hand. “Help them.” He commanded, to which they immediately went over and examined the darkened puncture wound.

“It’s good you brought them here when you did. This is a nasty poison.” They went to their shelf and began to quickly mix a concoction.

As they did, your vision began to blur a bit as you looked towards Gaara. His hands trembled in yours and you gave a small chuckle. “It’s ok. I’ll be just fine.” You told him to which he squeezed your hand harder.

“How can you know?” Of course, he wanted you to get better. But, he couldn’t have someone lie to his face if it wasn’t the truth.

You shrugged as the specialist hurried over, “I just know.” Gaara helped you sit up as he took the glass of an odd green color.

“Have them drink this, it’ll help expel the pois—” That was all he needed to hear, and he all but immediately raised it to your lips and had you down it. You nearly gagged because of the horrible taste and from how fast he was trying to get it in your system.

Once it was empty, you panted a little and looked up at your husband. “I said I would be fine.” You breathed out, feeling the shivers slowly subside. Turning back to the relieved specialist—who definitely did not want to be responsible for the death of the Kazekage’s spouse—did you ask, “So, how will this get expelled?” As if on cue, you felt bile reach the back of your throat and you lurched to the side to see the specialist ready with a pail that you quickly vomited into.

“It essentially pulls the poison from your body, concentrating it in your stomach while being suspended in the liquid.” They were cut off once again as more vomit spilled from your lips, a soothing hand beginning to rub your back. “It will be a while until it subsides.” They took the hand where the puncture wound was. “However, the hand and arm may need some special attention.”

“What do you mean?” Gaara asked, continuing to rub your back as he sensed another round about to happen.

“Well, the poison injured the muscles, making them a bit stiffer. They’ll need help and physical therapy as well.” You groaned as another spell hit you, making you empty your stomach again. “I’m sorry, but that’s still the best case scenario.”

Gaara nodded in understanding. In your line of work, you needed to use your hands on a daily basis. But…it was far better from him losing you. “Thank you. We will get on that as soon as we can.”

The poison specialist smiled, letting you hold onto the pail as they got the rest of their lunch and left the room. It seems it was their lunch break and you happened to interrupt that—for a good reason though.

Tears had long formed in your eyes, both from expelling the poison through your mouth and how you would be out of work for a while. “What am I going to do?” You whimpered, slouched over the pail.

“I’ll help you through it.” Gaara said without a question of a doubt. “I’ve had to go through several muscle injuries and physical therapy from my training. I’m well-versed enough to help.” Plus, there was no way he was going to let someone else try and help. Seeing as no one else was in the room, he crawled behind you, his legs on either side of yours and his frame supporting you. He took your hand and indeed noticed how stiff it had become, along with the rest of your arm. His pale fingers intertwined with yours, pulling them outwards and holding for a few seconds while you hissed in pain. “I know, I know. But we cannot let this sit. It will only be worse if we do.” He then pressed down, letting your fingers ball into a fist. He did this a few times until you emptied your stomach again. “We will stop with that.”

You gave a breathy laugh, leaning against his chest. “You think?” You smirked, knowing that what you’re experiencing was no where near the pain he has felt from his time as a ninja. But, you weren’t one and your pain tolerance was different. Thankfully, Gaara knew and understood that.

“Do you feel like there is any more?” He asked, rubbing your back after having vomited a couple more times.

Shaking your head, your (H/C) tresses brushing against him, you replied, “I think I’m done.”

Gaara smiled and nodded, setting the very full pail aside and picking the both of you up off the bed. “Let’s head home.”

You gave a tired nod before your eyes went wide. “Wait! The garden!” A shocked stare was what you got in return. “What?” You asked.

Your husband sighed and placed a gentle kiss to your head. “You and your priorities,” he muttered, pulling the window open and opting for leaving that route instead of going out the front doors and towards prying eyes. “You need to take care of yourself, (F/N).”

Snuggling your face into his neck, “I will, because I know you won’t let me out of your sight till I’m better.” He hummed in agreement, proud to accept that he wouldn’t completely abandon his spouse in their time of need.

Placing another kiss to her head as they floated back towards their home, the sun setting casting a peaceful glow over the Sand Village, he breathed a sigh of contentment. “You’re my most privileged responsibility. As much as I love them, you are above my siblings; above the village.” He motioned to the buildings under him. “All because you said ‘yes’. I will take care of you, forever and always.”

You blinked up at him, your (E/C) eyes wide. Slowly, color began to tinge your cheeks as you all but teared up at the confession of love he gave. “I love you, Gaara. Thank you for giving me this life.”

Even though he wanted to interject and ask how it was good that he let you get injured by a snake of all things, that could wait for later. Raising you up a bit, he kissed your lips and lingered for a moment. “No, thank you for giving me someone to love, and be loved back.” He whispered against them, knowing that you will completely be all right.

#gaara x reader #gaaraxreader #gaara of the sand #gaara of the desert #Naruto x reader #narutoxreader #gaara imagines #gaara imagine #gaara scenarios #gaara scenario #naruto headcanons #naruto imagines #xreader #x reader #anime x reader #animexreader #reader request #writing requests

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indecisive-v · 3 years

Text

NINJAMUFFIN DOING ANOTHER AMA ON TWITTER, HERE'S MORE SHIT FOR YA! keep in mind i'm just sharing the funkin related stuff, though i am including WAAAAY more than what i shared before 👍 go check out ninja's twitter profile for questions about stuff like ritz! questions in blue, answers in orange. if yall don't wanna read everything i MIGHT make a version of this post where i replace the answers with my own summaries of em (and if the questions are long, those too)

and here's a link to the ama tweet itself! dunno if it's still goin

Q: I figure the answer will be yes but do you have more plans to implement more guest appearances from people in the newgrounds community into FNF? Or are you all gunna focus on OG lore and stuff going forward

A: for guest appearances, I think we have always seen it as getting a healthy mix of both. PERSONALLY I'd like to lean towards having more OG stuff than guest stuff, BUT it's all a matter of what other boys think of that as well. I'm not the sole person working on game!

Q: Are you gonna release the full FNF game or are you gonna be releasing week after week? Like, are you gonna release week 8 or are we gonna wait some years until The Full Ass Game comes out?

A: Release plan for FNF right now is a few more updates or whatev to the 'demo' we have out right now, and then a long silence of probably no updates whatsoever until the full game is done (which will likely be a few years). That's partly why we made kickstarter for game.

Q: Hey so like, how much will Fnf cost after it's finished? And when will you ask the supporters what they want the game on?

A: It's all subject to change, but right now it prob gonna be standard 15-25$ lil steam indie game.

We will ask Kickstarter pledgers and whatnot what they want the game on SUPER close to when its released, to keep options open if we get onto anything like a console people want.

Q: 1. how was your day

2. are you releasing a week 8 song early like week 7, or are you goin full lockdown

A: I am doing GOOD today, and I think recently I've been good in general.

up to the mood, but so far we doing good about not having anything leak or whatev, so I think it'd be fun to have update come out with people not knowing what to expect at all. Build dat intrigue

Q: Will fnf ever get official plushies?? Seems like an untapped market

A: FNF plushies will prob happen some point, we have a lot of current merch stuff on our plates already though! (Mostly kickstarter type stuff, shirts, pins, posters, and all the physical OST stuff) Its a lot to sort out, but in time more and more stuff will happen. We r jus 4 boys!

Q: did you ever expect your game to blow up as it did? what was your first reaction to seeing it become super popular

A: FNF never had a humble moment, literally day 1 before the prototype even came out, the vid on twitter had like 5K likes overnight. Then when ludum dare version came out, it got 5K likes again, like it wasnt just a fluke. Was crazy, and def felt like somethin was different wit FNF

Q: Do you plan on getting other people to come in to help with the music? That seems like a lot of work to dump on one person, what with the erect mode and whatnot.

I guess the question could apply to all aspects of development. Will you be bringing on more people to help?

A: We definitely are getting help from other people. We are always keeping an eye on people for various different things. In terms of programming, already I've gotten 2 people (MtH and Geokureli) to help with certain Week 7 stuff (charting/polish, and loading stuff). Shit like dat

Q: Oh, also, will the Steam version be Workshop compatible? That'd really help streamline the process of downloading mods.

A: Steam version of FNF will likely NOT be Steam workshop compatible, because we want all the mods to NOT be spread out through different places. There WILL be modding support that is as streamlined as Steam workshop though. Mainly for non-steam versions of the game!

Q: Are there any chances that the game will have a physical release? Also any updates on a switch port? I remember one of you guys talking/joking about it.

A: Not impossible for FNF to get a physical release. We would want to see how far we could go with it though. I think it'd be super easy to do something wit people like LimitedRun games or whatev, but I think stuff like that can only go so far. I wanna see Funkin in mf Walmart!!!!!!

not that LimitedRun isn't going to be an option! Just we consider and pursue many different things! FNF release is years away, so we have time to think about everything. Whole mindset can be different just a few months from now.

Q: Out of curiosity, how are you dealing with all the popularity? It blew up so fast id barely be able to handle it if I was in your shoes.

A: The only way I've been able to handle it is having the other boys on the crew and being able to talk to them about all the overwhelmingness.

Part of it feels very lonesome, feels like NO ONE can come close to comprehending exactly how I'm feeling, except them. also other PALS!!!

Q: Do you own any of the bootleg FNF merchandise? Like any bootleg plushies or anything?

A: i dont, i genuinely think they r a waste of money, and I know any bootleg shit that gets made, we can prob go about and make it, and make it 100x cooler because we actually put effort into shit. bootleg shit just in it for the coin, so they aint gettin that from me

Q: How did you go about getting in contact with sr pelo for skid and pumps vocals?

A: Pelo i think was familiar and pals wit PhantomArcade a bit thru various Newgrounds things and collabs and whatnot.

pelo retweeted the first OG FNF posts first ever, and brought a LOT of attention to it. to pay him back, we put skid and pump in game! ask dave for more info prob

Q: what's the plan for having the full ass game open source if it's gonna cost money? couldn't people just download the source and compile the game for free?

A: when FNF is fully released, the full source code will be released as well.

the game will be DRM free so it will be way easier for people to redistribute the released/offical .exe instead of compiling it, so that's not the issue anyways. people will pay for things if they like it

Q: What are the chances of it getting on consoles like switch or Playstation, ps5 would definitely be my preferred way to play

A: it'd be a matter of hiring someone to build out backend stuff for those specific consoles. someone who knows their way around all the wacky code stuff, AND knows console hardware stuff. Then its just a matter of hittin up those console manufacturers (Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo)

the CLOSEST one is SWITCH. pretty much all of that backend is already made, so it just a matter of gettin all that access and shit.

i think in any case though, there's a lot of NDA stuff required, i dunno how much we'd be able to talk about it even IF we get that stuf sorted

Q: any ideas of releasing it on epic store or another platform?

A: Right now, the only thing that is 100% confirmed and WILL happen is a Steam version, itchio version, and mobile versions on respective app stores. Other storefronts aren't out of the picture though, but we don't want to spread ourselves too thin with it.

Q: Will you continue using HaxeFlixel to make the rest of FNF?

A: yes, because it is what I'm the most technically proficient in, and generally is VERY flexible. just a matter of ME becoming a better coder. It's ALL open source, so if I need something done a certain way, either I can do it, or we can hire someone to do it.

Q: have you seen game theory's videos on your game yet and if so, what do you think about them? (not talking about his predictions because i dont want spoilers. i like mystery)

A: it is always good silly fun to watch the Game Theory vids about Funkin with some pals, and see what matpat thinks of the game. i lov the vids, but wish he used my face less! Or at least used a cuter pic of me like this one!!

Q: Ok so: What does the future of FNF look like to you?

A: future of FNF is a rhythm game that not only exceeds every expectation that people have of it, but subverts most expectations and conventions as well.

Q: Do you plan on retouching on older weeks once the game is fully out? Like reanimating sprites, redoing some charting, updating the background, etc

A: retouching and probably overhauling certain aspects is almost definitely gonna happen. Everything is fluid and can be changed (and should be changed when necessary). i dont think anything should be too attached to, especially this early on in development

Q: I honestly do not care if the answer to this is vague as hell to keep surprises and shit lol but… Since Week 7 was the closest we’ll get to a playable girlfriend (still bf controlling tho), do you have plans to make girlfriend playable in spin-off things or just freeplay?

A: wouldnt be out of the picture for a playable GF, i don't think we've had some hard thing AGAINST it. just a matter of what we want out of the game, and what sort of story or whatev we could do with that concept

Q: How do BF and GF manage to meet famous newgrounds characters (such as pico, tankman and the others to come) like is this all in one universe/ timeline or are they being brought in?

A: i think they are all just there existing. i think there's a lot of wacky things in other media that try to justify crossovers, like MULTIVERSE bullshit or TIMELINE shit, but i dunno, its like subspace emissary. Captain Falcon and Olimar from Pikmin just hang out. Shit like dat

disclaimer that all lore shit is in phantomarcade head pretty much and maybe there is wacky dimensions or somethin

Q: Will the game have dlc?

A: its not too unlikely that we'd have expansions of some sort, but i mean right now we plan on packing in as much as we can into base game, and trying to make that as pure as possible.

if there is ANY dlc, i would personally want it to be 100% free updates

Q: How did you meet Phantom Arcade, Kawai Sprite, and EvilSker? And what do you think about the community and its controversies?

A: me and phantomarcade been fukin around NG for years so years and years ago we naturally crossed paths and became pals

about 2 years ago i found kawaisprites music on NG, and started talkin wit him, made Ritz wit him and we fell in lov

and evilsk8r i met cuz of FNF!!!

quik elaborate on evilsk8r, wanted artist for gamejam FNF was for (ludum dare), and OG person i asked wasnt available, so he referred me to evilsk8r, who I have never met or talked to before ever.

#friday night funkin #fnf #fridaynightfunkin

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risingmoonyue · 4 years

Text

Batman/P5 Crossover

-Sometime before Akechi but after Futaba or Haru

-Damian is sent to Tokyo to check it out for whatever reason (maybe they had a fight, or he’s going stir crazy, or he’s just the only one they can send at the time and didn't bother with all that "you're not old enough" business)

-Dami is younger than Futaba by a year or three or four

-He is baby

-He is transferred to Shujin as a child prodigy where he also immediately joins the "outcast" community because of his attitude and intelligence

-Talia goes too, manages to cut off all his communications with the Batfam, and is planning to take him home in a month whether he likes it or not

-For whatever reason, Batfam doesn't realize this??? (Like, either she's faking reports or they're too busy (think fight or chaos in Gotham scenario maybe???))

-Anyways, obviously Dami doesn't want this

-Somehow the Phantom Thieves hear about the situation

-Maybe he was assigned to shadow Makoto for a while, and they managed to overhear a phone conversation either to Talia or Dami trying to get in touch with the Batfam and nothing really working

-And eventually they outright see him fighting with his mother with him at some point (either in person or over a phone call) mentioning that she already disowned him, he's happy with his Father's family, and that he will head her family business over his dead body—and oh would you look at that, you already managed that, care to try again Mother?

-The PT's are understandably alarmed

-And learn her name from Damian (from Makoto maybe or someone else he bonded a little with) (MORGANA) (THEY GAVE HIM MONA FOR A DAY AND NOW THEY KNOW EVERYTHING FROM HIS MANY PETS TO HIS LEAST TO MOST FAVORITE SIBLINGS STARTING FROM TIM TO DICK TO HIS FAVORITE FOODS TO EVERYONE IN HIS FAMILY’S NAMES TO HOW STUPID HE FINDS EVERYONE AND WHY THEY'RE STUPID TO HIS FAVORITE MUSIC TO WHY ANIMALS ARE SUPERIOR TO HUMANS AND MONA’S LIKE OMG TMI BUT LOVED IT THERE BECAUSE HE WAS PAMPERED LIKE NO TOMORROW GOT ONLY THE BEST FOOD AND THE BEST BEDS AND TOYS THAT HE GOT TO TAKE WITH HIM BACK TO LEBLANC AND NOW AKIRA AND SOJIRO ARE LIKE DUDE WHY AND MONA’S LIKE IM KEEPING HIM THIS HUMAN IS GOOD SORRY AKIRA YOU’RE DEMOTED)

-The palace is basically a fortress full of assasin ninjas and clones

-Dunno what her keywords are tho

-Or her what her palace actually is

-Help?????????

-Cognitive Bruce, Ra's, Damian, Dami clones, and Jason (maybe rest of batfam??? Idk)

-Long story short, the traps are so assassin-y that they need someone who knows the actual Talia because egads, this is the closest they have all come to actually dying

-And they didn't really want to do it and were just gonna power through

-But Dami manages to find out and get in and of course uses his background to help out whether they like it or not

(-he's slightly off put by Joker's name, but then decides to just solely call Gotham!Joker "The Clown")

-At some point they are captured by the Shadow Talia who is decked out in super fancy traditional Arab clothing and probably every conceivable hidden weapon known to man

-Talia says Damian won't and can't ever change from who he "is meant to be", referring to him as her Alexander and basically brutally addresses all of his insecurities concerning the batfam and people and society in general

-And all this is kinda killing him cause he still loves Talia despite the fact that she killed him and had a violent citywide custody battle with Batman but he also loves the batfam too even if he would absolutely never admit it (except to maybe Grayson)

-Joker does his emotional kick-start thing and/or Dami is like Makoto and just gets so mad he triggers it himself, but either way, lo and behold, Damian is now a persona user, usurping Futaba's place as the baby of the team

-The outfit is kinda inspired by his future adult league outfit with the top and bottom and gold jewelry, but has a raggedy cloak with dull gold edges, a Robin mask and gauntlets, and his main weapons are batarang-sword hybrids

---acknowledging his past and moving on with his present

-Persona: Aladdin, Tsun Zu, Ali Baba, somone else???? Need ideas plz help

-Probably the fastest member of the group

-His small body makes his hits not as strong, but hoo boy can that kid move around

-Hits a lot and dodges most

-Most of his Persona abilities are physical and have high crit and/or are status affects

-Downside is he has not a lot of SP (compared to the rest of the group)

-And he has pretty good HP

-Those good ol' “superior genetics” have to be good for something after all

-Anyways they escape to find the treasure another day

-And Dami is all smug because HA you definitely can't stop me now

-And the PTs are just resigned to keeping an eye on the extremely competent snotty assassin/vigilante child

-They do like him though so it's not too bad (comes with learning all his darkest secrets via his mother and thought processes that tends to accompany watching someone at their lowest get a persona)

(-They do manage to temper him a bit and help him adjust better to actual society too that's nice)

-As such, they also know about Batman and Robin and his whoooole family. Both sides.

-Damian decided not to tell batfam because he does agree with the whole "most adults suck" mentality that the Phantom Thieves have; despite his deep, deep respect for his father and mother and Grayson, they all do kinda suck

-And he’s rather not get pulled out as he surely would if he told them

(-On a side note, he likes Sojiro

-The man gives him coffee, curry, and leaves him mostly to his own devices

-Instant win)

-He is dubbed "Mockingbird" apon return to the metaverse because of his freaky talented vocal skills in mimicking anyone and everyone's voice

-Eventually, they beat Talia

-She doesn't publicly confess to all her sins unlike everyone else

-PTs don't realize it worked until Damian came into school with a genuine smile on his face, and more relaxed than he'd been since he got there

-PTs are confused until Damian's like, this works out because hey, don't want to have several people assassinated and draw the entire freaking league to Tokyo

(-Which was probably why Talia didn't)

-They agree

-But she does break down to tears in Dami's arms and promise to ACTUALLY TALK CIVILLY with Bruce to try and make up for everything and try to fix up the league

-He stays for the rest of p5

-But steers all his reports very much away from the Phantom Thieves

-If anything, he downplays absolutely everything, and makes it seem like it's nothing super big but he's gonna stay a while to keep and eye out because y'alls are busy and I like it here and I haven't gotten expelled so there

-The PTs like to add funny stuff on there just to see if they’ll notice

-Like, Akira likes to have Dami describe his day in excruciating detail. Like, recounting the entirety of his nine or so months to Sae during police interrogation, excruciating

-Mona is pushing for the shiny stuff

-Yusuke just likes to put in bursts of randomness (Dami once mentioned that an acquaintance made another acquaintance T-pose in a church for art lol)

-Ann loves to rant about food

-Haru is always insisting on about feelings

-Ryuji likes to complain about everything and puts in ridiculous requests

-Futaba is just putting in every gen-z thing ever

-Makoto is actually responsible and tries to get him to talk about his progress in school and his social life

-And Akechi is absolutely nowhere near any of this and doesn’t know it exists

-When they have the Tokyo/Japan-wide calling card, Batfam sees it too because let's face it, that's totally the sorta thing that they would keep an eye out for even if he didn't look at the news in the entirety of the time Dami was in Tokyo

-And they send a message to Damian (the first actual communication they've had since before Talia) saying "WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON OVER THERE????"

-And with the entirety of the Phantom Thieves looking over his shoulder, Damian's just like "Chill dudes, everything's fiiiiiiiiiine"

-And they're like "UH WHAT PART OF THIS IS FINE????" because they've dug around a bit and found every news report, and oh hey, this isn't anywhere near as calm as Damian described and he’s being super OOC and what’s going on?!?!?!?!?!

-And Damian, being egged on by the most of the PTs, just sends a winky face

-Just

-😉

-And he's smug, because it's still chaos over there so they can't actually come get him and try to pull him out because he's being super ooc

-Which means he's free to do what he wants/needs in the meantime

-Cue the end of the game

-And Dami is going with them on their summer road trip and cackling because the batfam is scrambling to find him in Tokyo but lol nope he's in a van the Japanese government tried and fail to follow

-And he found all the trackers like, a year ago

-Every

-Single

-One

-They eventually track him down to Akira's house where they're calmly eating dinner (and they've been expecting this for the past week so Mona was keeping watch just so they could pull this off) and talking about how uneventful the school year was

-Cue mass confusion in the batfam

-As the PTs enjoy just confusing them so much

-By talking to Mona

-Talking normal then crazy then normal again

-And just generally being their normal selves lol

-They explain absolutely nothing beyond gushing about how much progress socially and academically he’s made (gotta embarrass the baby of the group somehow) and making sure that if Dami absolutely has to go home that he's able to stay in touch

(-Later, Damian forms his own hero persona outside of Batman and Robin)

(-He names it Mockingbird)

(-Batfam proceeds to have a brain aneurysm while the PTs dab their happy proud tears out of their eyes on their regularly scheduled tea time at the Wayne Manor)

(-Damian sends a private plane every week or two lol)

(Bonus: ARTTTTTTT)

(Psst if you guys have ideas for art, outfits, interactions or scenarios, let me know)

#my writing #my art #batman #persona 5 #p5 #persona #batman x p5 #damian wayne #akira kurusu #ren amamiya #p5 protagonist #ive been holding onto this one for a wHILE

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gwenbrightly · 4 years

Text

Of Milk and Cookies chapter 17:

*chanting* Brad chapter Brad chapter Brad chapter

Hi, hello, yes, this is Gwen with a brand new chapter of Of Milk and Cookies! I hope you enjoy!

Lloyd awoke to the all too familiar sensation of having absolutely no idea where he was. Over the past few months, he’d stayed more places than he could count on both hands, and the chaotic travel regime often messed with his head. Of course, it wasn’t very long before the memories of his frantic flight to the Ninjago City Hospital came flooding back to him and the slight panic dissipated. It must have been close to 2 in the morning by the time Kai and the others had managed to get the guest room in the teacher’s wing ready for him the previous night, and then Jay had tried to convince him to stay awake so they could catch up, but his exhaustion ultimately won out. Still, he had to admit that being here with his siblings nearby already felt so much better than being off preparing to meet with another stuffy town leader or dignitary. Why had he ever agreed to that stupid victory tour? The sound of his stomach growling prevented Lloyd from continuing this train of thought. Better find something to eat. He stepped out into the hallway, bracing himself for the chaotic whirlwind of energy that usually accompanied his fellow ninja. However, he was met with silence. Glancing about, he quickly located a note that had been taped to his door.

Lloyd, we decided to let you sleep in. We’ll be down in the cafeteria waiting for you whenever you decide to wake up.

- Kai

“Guess I’ll have to navigate on my own…” Lloyd muttered. The time alone would give him some time to process the fact that this was his first time visiting his old school in its current rendition. Had Nya already been home from the hospital, it would’ve been easier to pretend as though the school hadn’t been the very one his mother had left him at when he was barely more than a toddler. The one that had been the source of so much pain for him before he’d ultimately been kicked out. Hopefully the name change and inclusion of the ninja as teachers had been cause for some improvements, but Lloyd still had plenty of reservations.

He wandered down the hallway, trying to remember exactly where the exit to the teacher’s wing was. After a few wrong turns, he finally ended up at a door that appeared to lead to the courtyard. Lloyd stepped outside. It looked similar to the last time he’d visited, during that disastrous run in with the evil clones, except it was brighter, happier. The students who populated the courtyard were playing nice, relatively non violent games, or visiting quietly with each other. It was surprisingly peaceful. In the distance, he could see the freshly painted sign that marked the entrance. Much more welcoming than before. He turned to the left, heading for the cafeteria, trying not to let too many memories take hold of him as he wandered about. He cringed a little as he passed the tree he’d fallen out of and broken his wrist while trying to hide from Gene and the others. Even his favorite hiding place hadn’t been enough to save him that day. Lloyd shook his head. No use dwelling on the past.

“Um, excuse me,” a small voice piped up from behind him, “but you’re about to step on my hydrangeas.”

The Green Ninja froze and looked down. Sure enough, there was a pot of hydrangeas just waiting to be planted along the edge of the walkway.

“Oh. Sorry! I was just…” he turned to apologize, but his breath caught in his throat when he recognized the small form behind him.

“Brad?!” Lloyd choked out at the same time as Brad exclaimed, “Lloyd?!”

They stared at each other for a moment. Lloyd hadn’t even considered that being here meant he could easily run into one of his old classmates. He had no idea how to respond to this sudden reunion. Sure, they had parted ways amicably last time, but a lot had changed since then. Lloyd had changed, even if it was mostly his appearance.

“I…” he began awkwardly. Brad seemed no better prepared to process this turn of events.

“What are you doing here?” he asked with the delicacy of a cat coughing up a hairball.

“Nya.” Answered Lloyd, whose brain was suddenly only capable of one word responses.

“Oh. Right. Mr. Cole said she was fine and that Mr. Jay was just being a drama queen when he said she might die, but he didn’t mention anything about you…” Brad offered flushing slightly.

“I, uh, got here really late last night.” Lloyd explained. The smaller boy nodded.

“Oh.”

“Yeah.”

They both just kind of stood there, not saying anything, for what felt like an eternity. Had they really already run out of things to say?

“Do… do you have anywhere you need to be?” Brad asked, finally. Lloyd shrugged.

“Breakfast. Eventually. Why?”

Brad returned his shrug.

“Dunno. Guess I was thinking maybe we could climb the tree. For old times sake?” he suggested, looking surprisingly vulnerable. Lloyd wasn’t entirely sure what the boy was really going for with this idea, but something inside of him desperately wanted to temporarily ignore the call of food. To pretend he was just a normal kid with a normal life, instead of an ageless war hero. And so, he decided that a few minutes hanging from the branches of a tree wouldn’t hurt anything.

“Okay.” Said Lloyd, surprising Brad.

The branches were much easier to reach now that Lloyd was taller. One of the few good things to come from that change, he supposed. He followed Brad up into the canopy of the tree, where the leaves created a delicate wall separating them from the outside world. They each claimed a branch, and sat, staring at each other.

“So. It’s been awhile.” Brad spoke first. Lloyd appreciated his efforts.

“It has,” he agreed.

“You’re way taller now.” Observed Brad. Lloyd had to keep himself from rolling his eyes. He’d resigned himself to the comments about his height a long time ago, but the reminder still stung more than it should have.

“I am.”

“Do you have any idea how weird it is to be the shortest in class now?” Brad asked abruptly.

“You… you’re- you’re the shortest?” Lloyd snorted. It was strange how easily their interaction had spiraled into something more familiar, less awkward.

“Yep,” the dark hair boy bemoaned, “Even Sally’s taller than me now. Mr. Zane says that’ll change when I hit pooburty, but I’m not so sure I believe him.”

“I mean, Zane’s pretty much right about everything, so don’t give up hope yet, I guess?” Lloyd offered, smiling lopsidedly at his mispronunciation of puberty (a word that had been explained to him following the tea incident).

“I won’t.” Brad decided. He plucked a leaf and watched it flutter to the ground below. They fell into another, more comfortable, silence.

“So.” Lloyd said after awhile, trying to strike up another conversation.

“So. I… I should probably thank you. And apologize.” Brad stated, sounding more serious than before. Lloyd frowned and asked, “For what?”.

“Thank you for what you did when you visited last time – showing all of us that we didn’t have to be bad like everyone expected us to,” Brad told him, “and I wanna apologize because you should never have had to put up with everything I’ve done to you. I know it wasn’t- I wasn’t nice to you at all. And that sucks because you were my friend, and friends shouldn’t be so horrible to each other.” He finished, looking sad. Lloyd had never expected to get closure from anyone who had been a part of his experience at Darkley’s, not really. All the hurt and fear had started to dull after so many months away, and he had been fine with that. It was easier to just try to move on and forget. So the apology struck him harder than he would have expected. He brushed a quick hand over his eyes (which were suddenly damper than they should have been) and scrambled to find the right words.

“Oh. I didn’t even know if that would work, but I’m glad it did. Everyone deserves to be shown their inner light. And yeah, it does suck that things were like that, I’m not gonna lie. But it’s not like we were taught any better. It’s a learning curve – that whole being nice to other people thing.”

“I… it’s changed a lot for me. I never… I never thought I’d want to do better. But I do. I wanna be the kind of person you are – to help people and make them happy. And my dad, um, finally got arrested. So I’ll be living with my grandparents after the term is over. They’re really excited to have me. It feels so good to be wanted.” Brad told him, brightening. The boy had rarely mentioned his parents, but Lloyd had always known they weren’t really… present in his life. Or good people. It warmed his heart to see Brad flourishing like this.

“Well, congratulations on your new life, then!” Lloyd said, genuinely happy for his… friend. Yes, they were still friends, deep down. Beneath the regret of past mistakes. Beneath the awkwardness of one of them having grown up a bit more quickly than planned.

“Lloyd? I’m really glad we bumped into each other. I wasn’t sure this was a good idea but… it was.” Brad said with a grin, clearly appreciating Lloyd’s encouragement. They had both needed this conversation.

“Me too, Brad. It’s been… nice.” Lloyd agreed. The others were probably looking for him by now, but he couldn’t bring himself to care. They would, as always, find him eventually with those ninja senses of theirs. And they would, of course, be eager to catch up with him themselves, and he them. For now, however, Lloyd was content to stay here in this tree, an old friend by his side.

#ninjago #lloyd #ninjago fanfiction #myfics #of milk and cookies #Brad #Sometimes you write an entire chapter just to give two characters some closure

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ikemenfics · 5 years

Text

Hāshīzu

Last time on Ikemen Fics: One Entire Piece of Crack

Kyle: May I ask what you’ve drinking?

Me: ...Coffee?

Ieyasu: I think now’s a good time to quit drinking it.

“Sasuke..”

“Yeah..”

“...You’re not giving me one of those…”

Sasuke glanced down at the seemingly ordinary bag in his hand, recalling the words of the letter he’d been sent from Azuchi. [Is this what she went through? I must research what happened. How did a simple bag of candy result in so many warlords doing that with her. Am I sure I even want to try and replicate her results? I must. For science. But Masamune-dono isn’t here to start things. What to do with that…]

“Oi, Sasuke.”

Sasuke glanced up, “Ah..Yuki...Excuse me. I was thinking.” “About those? Sounds like those things are evil magic to me. Keep them away from me.”

Sasuke hummed a noncommittal sound, staring down at the silvery treats, ruminating on just how this caused such an uproar for you. [I would imagine it has to do with them being called “kissu” chocolates. Did they think it was because a chocolate meant you kissed? Or that you had to kiss someone? Didn’t she get to explain differently? If she gave me a chocolate- No, I can’t get distracted. If that happened with her, then why did that strange portal appear and I was given the same? How did that portal work? I calculated no such disturbances anywhere near this area for today, so it wasn’t natural. Perhaps, I can help her if I understand such a power. So, if her letter was correct, I have to recreate Azuchi all over again. But how-]

“OI, SASUKE! Man, you’re stranger than your usual today.”

Sasuke turned, seeing the messenger.

“Kenshin-sama is calling for you to come back,” the frazzled and near panicked man announced, “He demands to know why you left and what the letter was. There might be a battle in the hall if you don’t come quickly.”

Sasuke nodded, tucking the bag away, “I’m coming.” Shoulder to shoulder, he and Yuki walked back to the hall.

“Sasuke…” Kenshin’s voice was low [Uh oh…], “What is the meaning of walking away without proper dismissal?”

“My apologies, Kenshin-sama,” Sasuke moved to his knees, bowing deep to his lord, “the news from Azuchi unsettled me and I needed a moment.”

“You didn’t look unsettled,” Jade and Azhure stared at the ninja.

“To be fair, he never looks like anything,” Shingen offered, his voice carefully diplomatic, “So, we wouldn’t know what unsettled would look like on him.”

“And he’s been acting weird since,” Yukimura added, “was staring into space and everything. It was weird.”

Sasuke noted that Yukimura hadn’t mentioned their strange visitor, silently thanking his BFF for his discretion on that.

“Sasuke has always been an unusual sort,” Shingen added, “But staring off seems excessive even for him. Are you sure it was just the letter, Yuki?”

Yuki glanced at his lord and Sasuke tensed.

“Well…” Yuki clearly was making a great decision. Sasuke could feel sweat running down the back of his neck and was suddenly quite thankful no one could ever read his face. “There was something…” Yuki seemed to be searching for a word or term and Sasuke waited, “Something called Hāshīzu. There’s a bag he’s got.”

Kenshin’s hand was out, before the words were completely out of the mouth of the scarlet warlord.

Sasuke reached, his eyes imperceptible and his hand steady, and plucked the small foil of chocolate into the Dragon of Echigo’s palm.

There was a long pause as the candy was examined.

“It shimmers,” Yoshimoto breathed. “It gleams almost like metal. It’s lovely.”

“I somehow thought this would be larger considering the near extreme response Yukimura described.” Shingen’s brow furrowed as he spoke.

“Is this poison, Sasuke? Did those fools seek to end me with such poor tactics? I am disappointed.”

“Ah, no. It’s not poison. Nor is it from Azuchi, Kenshin-sama.”

“Oh? Then what is it?”

“More importantly, where did it come from?”

[DokiDoki. Now is as good a time as any to start thing pleasant day experience.]

“It’s called a kiss.” Sasuke replied.

“A…” Kenshin’s eyebrows came together, wrinkles forming on his perfect countenance.

“Kiss?” Yoshimoto finished, glancing down at the drop of chocolate balanced on the Dragon’s fingers.

“Yes,” Sasuke responded, adjusting his glasses, “The drop shape looks as if someone left a ‘kiss of chocolate’ upon the receiver. Typically given as a romantic gesture.”

“And…” Shingen sounded intrigued, “What do you do with these romantic gestures?”

“If you receive a kiss, you eat it.”

Silence

“But isn’t that metal? I have heard of ingesting mercury for youth, but many of those scholars have died. It doesn’t sound like a thing you do to your lover.” Yoshimoto sounded dubious.

Sasuke plucked the confectionary from Kenshin’s hand, unwrapping the item as he spoke, “the chocolate is inside. The foil is a lightweight metal that keeps the chocolate protected. You don’t eat that.” He held up the small brown prize for the others to see.

“How...interesting…” Shingen said, his hand reaching out.

“It looked much better with the foil. Food, like everything, should be a pleasure to all the senses.” Yoshimoto muttered, reaching as well.

Kenshin snatched it, “My ninja is to give no kiss of any kind to anyone but myself.” He opened his mouth and to his own horror, popped the sweet into his mouth. He grimaced, clearly debating swallowing the item whole or attempting to chew the offending sweet.

Eventually, his Adam's apple bobbed and he was able to speak, “Disgusting.” He waved his hand and an aid rushed in close, bringing sake and pickled plums to the warlord, “It’s not as bad as Shingen’s sugar buns things, but that was horrid.” Kenshin reached for the tokkuri

Meanwhile, elsewhere. A handful of figures are playing cards.

“So, did you finish your mission.”

“Not yet. But I have time now. I’m waiting for events to unfold.”

“What did you do, anyway?”

“I delivered chocolate. Apparently, someone has a sense of humor.”

The emerald eyed man glances up, seemingly into nothing. There is some shuffling and a cough. Heads turn towards the sound. There is a nervous, breathy giggle. Then the presence is gone.

“So..how long do you think it should take?”

“It wasn’t long last time. But it seems this is a more...difficult bunch.”

There is another shuffle. A head tilts, as if their ears are perked to hear words meant only for them. A grin appears on their face, one eye shifting colors as he stands.

“I have just the thing,” he announced, then, without another word, he was gone, leaving the rest of the players to their own devices.

“Oh dear…”

“Looks like those poor people are really in for it now.”

“I really hope he doesn’t expend himself too much.”

“Oh...I dunno. Sometimes people just need a soft push. I think he’ll be fine, old friend.”

Back in Kasugayama:

Kenshin had started pouring his sake when the world almost warped and suddenly the cup and decanter were gone.

“What the-”

Yuki, “Oh no...not again. NO MORE WITCH MAGIC!” His lance was out.

Seeing his vassal armed and ready, Shingen was already up, drawing his sword, “I imagine I should thank the crazy dragon for the fact that we all come to these meetings semi armed.”

Yoshimoto flourished his fan, his body graceful as a dancer’s, “Remind me to ask what ‘not again’ means..”

One by one, weapons vanished from the hands of their owners. Kenshin crying out as Himetsuru was ripped from his grip.

“Oh no…” a disembodied, though cheerful, voiced called into the room, “You won’t need those. I come in peace. Unless you insist on being mean. Then I can play as well.”

Unlike the world slicing, it seemed this visitor was happy to just slip into existence. Everyone watched as the ruby eyed young man did a reverse fade. As soon as he was opaque and solid, he turned, smiled, and gave a cat paw like closed fisted wave.

“You,” Kenshin’s voice was low, quiet, but menacing all the same, “How are you here?”

“Easy!” the hooded man answered, offering no other response.

“Those ears...on that hood…” Sasuke mused.

“Mm! Yes! A Cheshire Cat!” The cheerful voice replied. “Loki Genetta. Please remember it.”

“You will be remembered as the intruder who didn’t leave alive..” came the muttered threat.

“Oh wait WAIT WAIT! So mean!” Loki raised his hand, making scratches in the air. As soon as he made the motion, scratches appeared in the floor in front of the snowlord.

“Peace, Kenshinsama.” Sasuke tried to soothe, “He hasn’t made a move to attack and your weapons are gone. Let’s try and see what he wants.”

“Yes, Cushion-san,” Loki agreed, his initial merriment returning, “I come to tell you of the magic of your gift from the Jack of Hearts.” He waved his hands again, but this time there was no visible effect, “Since you all need help with spreading your merriment. Here.” With that, Loki gave another paw wave, slowly fading out of existence, “Enjoy your kisses.” Almost as an afterthought, the now bodiless voice of Loki said, “Oh, and your weapons will be returned only after your joy has spread.”

“What a strange turn of events this has become,” Yoshimoto mused, turning towards the green ninja. “What is this joy he speaks of?”

Sasuke held up the bag. “I think,” he replied, “we’re supposed to share kisses.”

Silence as everyone allowed that to sink in.

“Alright,” Yukimura said, his voice sounding similar to the one he used for battle, “As your friend. I will accept your joy.”

Sasuke remained still, unsure of what to expect, when another voice sounded, “No.”

While bladeless, Sasuke still felt the ice cold point of death as he was turned towards his master, “He is MY ninja. I have no intention of sharing such a useful tool with anyone. His kisses are mine.” Kenshin snatched the bag, leaning forward at the same time, stealing Sasuke lips with his own.

The kiss ended, Kenshin turning away before anyone could fully see his face. Sasuke remained stoic. Kenshin fished another candy from the bag muttering, “These taste foul. Least I managed to wash the taste out that way…”

“You do realize…” Shingen’s voice positively dripped with amusement, “that you have to share that joy with everyone, yes?”

“You just want the chocolate. And I’m not kissing you.”

“I wouldn’t want to kiss you either. You’re a little too insane. But rules are rules.” The Tiger stepped to the Dragon, his lips turned up in a smirk.

“Ugh!” Kenshin announced, shoving the hershey’s back to Sasuke, “Nevermind! I shall go find Himetsuru.” With that, Kenshin was gone.

Sasuke took a chocolate out, “Well…”

Yuki was quicker, “Alright. Just. Get it over with.” Yuki’s face was red and his stance suggested the resident tsundere was flustered out of his mind.

“I appreciate you,” Sasuke replied, leaning in, “Please accept this with grace.”

Their lips brushed together, Yuki tensing as the shock took him over. They remained, Sasuke’s lips playing with Yuki’s before they parted.

“Your lips are really soft, Sasuke. Like a girl’s.” Yuki said before almost fleeing the room.

“Hmm?” Shingen seemed to have stepped in for his turn, “soft, eh? Then I shall very much look forward to this. But first. Let me taste this kissu of yours.” Sasuke numbly handed the chocolate to Shingen, the big man taking a bite out of it, chewing thoughtfully. “Mm...not bad. Has just a touch of a bitter taste but richer than dangos have, but it’s not bad.” With that, Shingen leaned in, sealing his mouth over Sasuke’s own. His tongue pushed, testing Sasuke, finding the ninja scientist compliant to the intrusion. He took his time exploring the mouth of the young man as he kissed.

Pulling away, he licked Sasuke’s lips one last time, “Kenshin probably really will try and kill me this time. But I might say it was worth riling him up.”

Sasuke had no reply.

He turned, finding one man left. Yoshimoto’s smile was imperceptible as he said, “Kissing is an art. If you plan to dead fish on me like you did Shingen, I will be exceptionally disappointed.”

Sasuke leaned in, Yoshimoto meeting him halfway. As Shingen has done, Yoshimoto’s tongue touch Sasuke’s lips. When Sasuke opened his mouth, Yoshimoto took an extra step, tracing Sasuke’s lips before entering. Sasuke’s tongue met Yoshimoto’s and the two spent moments allowing themselves to mingle in the sensation.

Yoshimoto pulled back, tracing Sasuke’s lips, “You do have soft lips. Pure art. Wasted on a man like Kenshin. A shame.”

Left alone in Kasugayama castle, Sasuke stood. Though his face was blank, the tension of his body was clearly visible to anyone that might have happened upon this sight. A moment, two, then three and Sasuke finally took a breath, falling to the floor.

“I think I might have just swooned,” he breathed, recomposing himself

At the card game

“It would seem it’s my turn now. I should return their weapons.” Standing, a large sword was strapped to the speaker’s back, excusing himself as he left the game.

“Watch the one with the eyes. He’s mean.”

“Roger that.”

The throne room of Kasugayama warped. A large sword cut through the fabric of reality, just as Sasuke had seen in the courtyard. A figured clad in dark colors stepped through. Large golden eyes surveyed the room before landing on the recovered ninja.

“I imagine “the one with the eyes” isn’t here?”

“You mean the cat one?”

“No. There isn’t another person with eyes?”

“We all have eyes.”

“Ah. Yes.” The purple haired man seemed a little flustered as he moved the greatsword onto his back. “Well, as he’s not here, I’ll just give you these.” Weapons appeared, a fan, two swords, shiruken, kunai, and a lance placed delicately on the floor. “Is this everything?”

“Yes.” Sasuke eyed the floor, glancing up at the young man, “By the way, is the cheer spread, now?”

“Oh..um…” Topaz eyes looked around, seeming to check with an unseen entity, “I don’t know. You’d have to ask Edgar.”

“Also, who are you?”

“Luka of the Black Army.”

With that, Luka stepped back into the rip, resealing it with his broadsword.

Meanwhile, in a forest not too far away, a man in deep purple and gold sat in deep meditation. He felt, rather than saw, a strange shift, and opened his eyes. A blade cut through reality and a figure in white and red with gold accents stepped forth.

“Pardon me. My name is Edgar and I have been commanded to bring you this….”

Writer, are you sure it was just coffee?

M-...maybe?

You don’t sound too sure

I have a very active imagination ok?

Ok, but...why Ikerev?

Would you rather vampires?

Ok...why are you shoehorning people in?

You think you can get all of Kasugayama to kiss each other?

I feel kinda sorry for Kennyo...

I do too...

What’s gonna happen to him

Well...LOOK, A DISTRACTION

“Hello, it’s me Edgar, again...”

-flees-

“T’would seem I am to be used for more humor. How lucky.”

#Ikesen #ikemen sengoku #iekemen fics #ikemen sengoku fics #crack #pure and utter crack #like call the fbi crack #please don't call the fbi #i'm sober i swear #Sasuke Sarutobi #Uesugi Kenshin #Takeda Shingen #Imagawa Yoshimoto #Yoshimoto Imagawa #Sanada Yukimura #you ever forget how you ordered your tags?#...me neither #something really weird happened with the formatting of this post #I dunno how to fix it

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robininthelabyrinth · 5 years

Text

Fic: An Internal Affair - Chapter 17 (Ao3 link)

Fandom: The Flash Pairing: Leonard Snart/Barry Allen

Summary: Leonard Snart, the CCPD Captain of Internal Affairs, is known as Captain Cold for a very good reason: He hates corrupt cops with a merciless vengeance, and once you’re on his list, you’re in serious trouble.

His next target?

A CCPD lab tech named Barry Allen who’s developed a suspicious habit of disappearing at random intervals.

—————————————————————————————————

Len is hovering by the door again, wondering if he should go in or not.

On one hand: it's Mick.

This is all so characteristic of him, really. Just when Len is losing hope, just when the doctors are starting to give up, Mick decides it’s time to defy expectations yet again and struggle his way back to consciousness in dramatic fashion. And not the momentary, illusory consciousness that Len's become accustomed to, moments where Mick's eyes would flicker open and his mouth would move in empty, meaningless syllables.

Real consciousness.

Mick's back.

He's alive, he's - not intact, no, but he's been acing all of the doctors' cognitive tests and he remembers all the facts and dates and events that he should.

He's grumpy and irritable over the food quality and friendly with the nurses while being a jackass to the surgeons and all in all is just so very Mick Rory that it makes Len want to cry just from sheer relief and having missed him so damn much.

(He may or may not have taken a few hours in a convenient hospital storage closet to do just that, father-imposed inability to shed proper tears aside; the world will never know for sure.)

So obviously Len should go in and talk to him.

On the other hand...this is Mick.

The man Len betrayed for years, being a cop without ever telling him. The man who rescued Len anyway. The man who paid the price for it.

And oh, what a price - two-thirds of his body covered in burns, now twisted into scars despite the best efforts of the medical establishment. Serious deterioration and atrophy of his muscles from being in a coma. Bed sores, a swollen throat from routine intubation, scars on his lungs, urinary tract infections...

His strong body, which he was always so proud of, decaying away around him like a living corpse - and all Len's fault.

Len was always willing to accept that bargain: that he’d take Mick's anger or hatred, whatever, anything, anything at all, as long as Mick woke up as himself. But sitting there with an unconscious man and wishing for that to happen is pretty different from actually having to walk inside the hospital room and face the music.

And so he hovers, wondering, debating, searching for some sort of sign of what he should do -

"Snart. Stop skulking around out there and get in here."

Well. That's certainly clear enough.

Len creeps into the room.

Mick is -

Mick is beautifully, wonderfully alive, and honest to God, everything else is so much less important that Len can't remember why he was so reluctant to come in.

Of course, then he tries to open his mouth and say something, realizes he has no idea what to say because months of rehearsing apologies is apparently rendered totally useless after a month of total panicked despair followed by frenzied overwhelming delight and relief, and he abruptly remembers what was stopping him.

What does he even say? How does he even start?

"Where are you showering?" Mick asks.

...on Len's list of ways this conversation could go, that wasn't really one of them.

"Showering?" Len asks incredulously.

"Showering," Mick confirms. "You like to shower in the mornings, it’s morning now, and your very friendly piece of skirt tells me you haven't left the hospital in days. So you gotta be showering somewhere here."

"There's a shower in the nurse's wing," Len says blankly. "Why - wait, what piece of skirt? Do you mean Danvers?"

"Yeah, her," Mick says. "Skirt. She was wearing one – red skirt, with mesh leggings underneath, and also a cute but very concealing sweater with the puppy holding the ice cream cone. She says you know the one...?"

Len is, in fact, familiar with that outfit; it's Danvers' go-to security blanket outfit, the one she wears when she's stressing over something. Usually over Len being dumb, if he's being honest.

Hmm. He really has been living at the hospital the past few days, hasn't he?

"Yeah," Len says. "Definitely Danvers. When'd you see her, anyway?"

His accent slips deeper whenever he's around Mick, he notices; a little less nasal overall, but affecting more words, adding more shortenings and dropping more words. A silent sign of how instinctively comfortable he is in Mick's presence, no matter how stressed he is.

"You were apparently unconscious in a chair in the hallway at the time," Mick says with shrug he aborts with a wince halfway through. "She wanted to introduce herself, set me up with a new phone and group-chat and some shit like that, have me sign some papers -"

"Papers?" Len asks sharply. He'll - deal with Mick actually having a chance to read Danvers' long-threatened group-chat logs later. As far later as possible. "What papers?"

"Apparently I've been suing the police department for being dickheads while I've been out cold and now that I'm awake she needs me to agree to keep it going," Mick says.

Len barely manages to keep from laughing. Of course Danvers would remember that lawsuit Len had some lawyer file in a fit of agonized grief right after it all happened, even though Len himself has long forgotten all about it. How had he ever managed without a personal assistant before now?

"Didn't really ask much past that," Mick continues. "You know I never miss a chance to stick it to the pigs."

Len flinches.

Right.

Trust Mick to bring up the elephant in the room right away.

Mick hates cops.

Len’s been one for years.

Mick just looks at Len steadily. "You never told me," he says quietly. "Why?"

"It wasn't true when we first met in juvie," Len says miserably, hovering by the familiar chair next to Mick's bed but not actually sitting down. "And when we hooked back up later on, started working together on jobs just once in a while, I was brand new and just absolute shit at it, paranoid as fuck. Barely even spoke to the one or two guys that did know, my handlers with the CCPD and the Feds; didn't feel safe enough. And by the time I pulled my head outta my ass, it'd been years and we were partners and I knew you hated pigs and I didn't want you to hate me and -"

Mick starts laughing.

Not in a scornful or miserable way, the way Len might have feared it would be, but actual real deep laughter of the sort he hasn't heard from Mick in far, far too long.

"What?" Len asks, suspicious. "What'd I say?"

"I thought it was 'cause you didn't trust me," Mick chokes out between belly laughs that are probably hurting him. "I shoulda known it was because you're just an idiot. Same as always."

"Hey!" Len protests automatically.

Not that he takes any offense - he knows Mick calls him an idiot because that's how Mick demonstrates affection, with friendly insults and ribbing and casual death threats.

But he's not an idiot!

At the very least he doesn't think he's done anything that qualifies him to be called an idiot at this exact moment, anyway.

"Fine, then," Mick says, getting better control over himself - probably better for his health and well-being - though he still has a giant shit-eating grin on his face. "Not an idiot. A goober that can't do social situations for shit, that better?"

"Not really."

"S'true though."

"It ain't! I can do social shit! I do social shit just fine!"

"Even when you're not conning someone?"

"Even when I'm not conning someone!"

After all, Len assures himself, Barry totally continued to want to date him even after he'd stopped trying to con him...

Maybe that's not the best example.

"Uh-huh," Mick says, looking amused. There are little wrinkles of laughter by his eyes; Len hadn't noticed those, before. Amazing what months of memorizing a person's slack unconscious face will reveal. "Lemme guess. That'd be this Barry Allen guy Danvers' chats keep mentioning."

"...you've read them."

That emotion he's feeling right now - is it horror, extra horror, or extreme horror?

Mix of all of the above, clearly.

"Oh yeah. I've definitely read them," Mick says gleefully. "But I wanna hear about it from you directly."

"Mick."

"Don't you 'Mick' me. I've got no other entertainment right now, and you know I like romance shit."

"You like pulp sci-fi and ninja romance stuff, not just romance," Len objects. "This story..."

He trails off, considering for a moment.

"Well, it ain't got ninjas," he finally says. "As far as I know, anyway, though there was a weird mention once or twice of something fucked up happening Starling, I dunno. And it might've been a bit romantic, but right now it's mostly just tragic."

"Tell me about it anyway."

"Tell you about what?" Len complains, finally taking a seat next to Mick on his bed. There's a chair, too, but chairs are for losers who don't get to sit on comfy beds with their best friends who, amazingly, appear to be forgiving them for - well, everything. How Mick can do that sort of thing, Len has no idea. "There's nothing to it. I got bored in between investigating the million and one corrupt assholes in the CCPD and find out this one guy who's been acting suspicious apparently disappeared for nine months, supposedly in a coma, but then reappeared with no damage and these amazing abs -"

"No kidding, I've seen the pics."

"Goddamnit, I’m gonna gut Danvers; those are technically evidence and she shouldn't be sharing them. Anyway, turns out he ain't corrupt, he's just a fucking superhero. Who'd have thought, you know?"

"Not really anyone's first guess," Mick agrees.

"And first I think he's okay, you know," Len continues. He's ranting. He's aware that he's ranting. He can't seem to stop himself from ranting. "Because he's kind and friendly and optimistic and he's got this stupid smile that lights up the room, but I'm thinking no way anyone's this perfect, he's gotta be up to something, but I get this idea in my head that it must be that he's investigating the superhero - this is all happening before I figure out he is the superhero, that is - so I start dating him anyway -"

"Dates go well?"

"Amazingly. He legitimately thinks my puns are funny."

"Clearly a match made in some level of punster hell," Mick says.

"Shut up, puns are funny."

"Lowest form of wit."

"Lowest circle of hell's supposed to be cold, so I guess it fits," Len says, rolling his eyes. "Did I tell you yet that he thought for a while that I was a supervillain named Captain Cold? That's my new nickname at the precinct."

"No, but that's hilarious. You always did like your cold puns. Actually, you probably didn't know it, but people – criminals, that is – sometimes called you Ice-heart Snart."

"That's...awful. I'm glad I didn't know about that."

"No kidding. Captain Cold's much better. So he thought all of that about you and dated you anyway?"

"No, he didn't realize I was the Internal Affairs guy at first; I didn't tell him ‘cause I was investigating him. Anyway - wait, where was I?"

"Amazing dates," Mick prompts.

"Well, they were," Len says. "Absolutely amazing. Best I've ever had - just talking and laughing and just being happy hanging out and all that stuff that comes right out of that romance stuff you're always on about - and then, of course, just as I start thinking that I finally got lucky, it all blows up in my face. Turns out he's just as bad as I thought when I first started looking into him, and I should be happy to be proven right except for some reason I'm not, and now I can't stop thinking about how awfully he's gonna do in prison when he finally gets sent there like he deserves. I feel like shit about it and I don't know why -"

"Of course you don't," Mick says, sounding amused. "You wouldn't."

Len eyes him suspiciously. "You say that like you do know."

No way. Mick's been in a freaking coma; how could he have figured out what the hell's going on with Len's emotional state before Len did?

"Lenny," Mick says, sounding just a bit patronizing. "I might be a blockhead, but I've been interpreting your emotions for you since juvie. 'course I know."

"You're not a blockhead," Len protests automatically, always on guard against anyone - even Mick - putting down Mick's intelligence. He hates it when people do that; Mick's one of the smartest guys he knows, even if he doesn't talk all that pretty. "You just don't got as much education as some, s'all."

Though Mick's got a point about Len's emotions.

Not that Len's going to ask him to explain.

It doesn't matter, after all, what's done is done. Who cares how he feels about it?

Who cares about understanding why Len feels like he got a shiv to the gut every time he even thinks about Barry - about Allen, damnit - and a feeling like he swallowed crushed glass but also a weird kind of happiness left over from when every thought of Barry brought him joy?

Who cares -

Len. Len cares. Len cares a lot.

"Okay, I'll bite," he says, giving in. "What the fuck is wrong with me?"

"You're in love with him," Mick says. "Obviously."

...what?

No.

Impossible.

In love? Len doesn't do love.

Len's never done love, or at least not love like that - love for Lisa, love for Mick, yes, but not the stupid sort of Valentine's Day love, the type you read about in novels that you don't admit to reading, the type that makes the world turn around you and leaves you breathless and chokes in your throat, ripping your heart out of your chest because it belongs to someone else who doesn't care as much as you care, and leaves you with an awful gaping hole in your belly whenever you think about the fact they're going to go away for good somewhere where you won't see that optimistic smile or hear that laugh or -

Shit.

"...I really am an idiot that can't do social situations for shit," Len says aloud, realizing.

"You really are," Mick says, but he sounds fond. "Don't worry; I came to terms with that years ago."

"But I can't be in love with him," Len says, trying so desperately to shove that knowledge back under the river of denial where it came from that he doesn't even make a de-Nile pun like he usually does. "I can't! He - he's - he's done unforgivable things – kidnapping, imprisonment, solitary – literal war crimes – and he should've known better, he's corrupt -"

"Sounds to me like he made some mistakes -"

"Mistakes?!" Len yowls.

Mick holds up a hand. "Okay, fine, yeah, some of those mistakes are crimes, some might even be war crimes, but seriously, Snart, if you stopped liking someone just because they committed a couple of horrific crimes, you and me, we wouldn't be friends."

"It's not the same thing!" Len protests.

"I'm an arsonist, Lenny; I literally murder people sometimes."

"Usually as an unintended side effect," Len says dismissively. Intent matters, when it comes to criminal stuff; most of the time Mick could be blamed for nothing worse than negligent manslaughter and that's only technically murder. Len checked. "He's corrupt, Mick. He put himself out as being a hero, as someone doing the right thing, as someone upholding the law, and all the while he's doing stuff like that in the shadows...I can't be in love with someone like that, Mick. I can't. Look what corruption did to you! Look what it did to me and Lisa, when it was my dad! Look what -"

Mick catches Len's hands, which Len has been waving angrily in the air.

"Don't move like that!" Len exclaims, losing his prior train of thought immediately. "Your muscles aren't used to sudden movement; you'll hurt yourself!"

"It hurt," Mick says. "It was still worth it. Boss, you're spiraling."

"I'm - what?"

"Spiraling. My shrink told me about it; you get stuck in a mental rut and you can't get out of it, so you just go in circles, on and on, torturing yourself with all your bad thoughts. In this case, it's me." Mick squeezes Len's hands. "You've been torturing yourself with what happened to me. Except instead of thinking about it and dealing with it and getting over it, you've poured everything you feel into your war on corruption, focused so much on it that you're seeing unforgivable corruption and betrayal every way you look. But you don't gotta keep doing that. I'm here. I'm okay. I'm alive."

Len stares at Mick.

His hands, still enclosed in Mick's, start shaking. His shoulders, too, and he can't seem to make them stop.

"You're alive," Len croaks, suddenly finding it hard to talk. He’d known Mick was alive and mostly well for a while now, couple of days, but it suddenly feels like he’s learning it all over again. "You're alive. You're alive and you're talking and you're you and - fuck, Mick, I nearly lost you."

"I know."

"I can't do this shit without you," Len says, desperate now. "Any of it. Life, the universe, everything; it doesn't matter. I need you by my side, Mick. I need my partner - I need my best friend. It all turns to ash without you."

"I'm here," Mick says, strong and solid and dependable as ever. "You've got me."

"I don't -" Deserve you, Len is about to say, only he chokes on it; he never knew he felt that way. "I lied to you. For years. By omission, by commission...I put my job above our partnership. I shouldn't have. I really shouldn't have. You're more important - you're the most important. I ain't never gonna put anything above you ever again. Not work, not romance, not anything nor anyone. Not anything. I'm so goddamn sorry, Mick. Not just for what I did to you, for what happened, but for the lying. For all of it."

"You're an idiot," Mick says, and he squeezes Len's hands again. "Total idiot. Boss, it's fine. Really. I get it. I get why you made that choice - especially now that I know it was all about your issues, not about me and what you thought of me. Even before that, though, I got it. I knew you were a pig and I came to get you anyway, remember? Through gunfire and furious Families, and that's saying something."

Len nods mutely.

"I did it because we're partners," Mick tells him. "And we're always gonna be partners. Always gonna be friends, even if you do something dumb like lie to me or fall in love with a target of your investigation before you finish investigating him -"

"Hey," Len protests, but weakly. Mick has a point. A very good point.

"No matter what, it doesn't matter," Mick concludes. "You and me against the world, remember? That ain't changed."

Len nods, and turns his hands to squeeze Mick's hands back.

"Now for the love of fuck can we please stop talking about feelings?" Mick asks, almost begging. "You really don't pay me enough to be your shrink. You couldn't. You could offer me all of Fort Knox and I wouldn't be your shrink."

Len snorts, maybe a little wetly but not from tears because he doesn't do tears, and pulls back his hands. "Yeah, sure, we can stop. I think I hit my yearly quota of feelings there."

"No kidding," Mick says fervently. "You hit yours, and mine, and then mine again a few time. I'll let you off the hook this one time, just 'cause I know you've been saving it up the whole time I was out, but still, for someone who likes to say he don't got a heart, you sure got a hell of a lot to say. Oh, and don't think I didn't notice you slipping that 'ash' pun in there."

"Ash is the right word!" Len protests. "Just because it's fire-related don't mean it's always a pun!"

"With you, it's always a pun," Mick says firmly.

Len laughs. If it's a little more hysterical and sounds a bit more like sobs than it normally does, they'll both be more than willing to overlook that.

As they like to remind each other, they don’t have hearts – or at least they know to keep them well hidden.

(God, Mick is Len's best friend - how did he last so long without him? No wonder everything's been screwing up left and right while he's gone.)

"Hey, wait a minute," Mick says thoughtfully, "while we're talking about this shit, before we shove it all down the memory hole, tell me - how come you never had to turn me in? I did plenty of crimes while we were running as thieves."

"Were running?" Len echoes, alarmed, and he looks down at Mick's legs to see if something's happened to them in the last few minutes. The doctors told him Mick would get his mobility back, or at least most of it, and his legs aren't as affected as his back and shoulders. There should be no impact on his ability to run, or at least to walk quickly. Or does Mick know something he doesn't...?

"Yeah, I hear through the grapevine that you got yourself a new job," Mick says dryly. "Not much thieving to be done there. Plus I figure it might be time to retire from the whole thief thing myself, too, all things considered."

"Ah. Right. I forgot."

Metaphorically running, right, that's an option.

"Don't go forgetting you quitting crime, boss; it's a kinda big deal. You really got a business card like Skirt says?"

"Yeah, it's awful," Len says. "Stamped, embossed proof that I'm legit now."

"Embossed," Mick marvels. "Now I know I gotta retire, if you've shifted over to doing the hunting."

"I'm Internal Affairs, actually," Len says. "I only hunt corrupt cops, district attorneys, and other government employees, not criminals."

"Really? Huh. Shoulda known you'd find a loophole – crime-fighting without actual crime-fighting."

"What can I say? I'm very good at what I do," Len sniffs, smiling when Mick laughs - finally getting the double meaning that's always been there. "And, uh, about your crimes -"

"Yeah?"

"So, I might've registered you as a CI couple of years ago," Len confesses, deciding that exactly how many years constituted a couple was an open question up for debate. Couple could totally mean a decade plus. "Proper legal confidential informant for both the CCPD and the Feds. Then after a few years of that, I got you swapped over to being classified as full undercover -"

"Wait," Mick says, alarmed. "You telling me the reason all of my prison sentences were so short was 'cause the judges all thought I was a pig?!"

"You didn't care about the reason back then!"

"I'm a pig?!"

"No, you never went to police academy, you ain't a pig," Len says, rolling his eyes. "I told 'em you were working for me as a non-officer agent, and it ain't like they really care about a few arsons when they've got the whole set of Families to take down. You're a snitch at best."

Mick considers this.

"I'm okay with being a rat," he finally decides. "I like rats. They're cute. Remember Axl?"

Len does remember Mick's pet rat Axl. Mick doted on him, and even Len got pretty fond. They ended up having to find him a new owner - a woman with a gigantic rat cage that took up half the living room, which both she and Mick agreed was the right balance of pet-to-owner space (Len thought they were both nuts) - and he lived to a ripe old age with god-knows-how-many descendants.

"But seriously," Mick continues, "they actually all bought that? Didn't they ever ask you why I was willing to do all that work without being paid?"

"Well. Actually..."

"Boss. Boss, no. I know that tone of voice. You telling me I got paid? Is there some savings account somewhere with my name forged on it that you conveniently never told me about?"

"Maybe."

Mick rolls his eyes, grinning; he knows that's as good as a yes. "Anything else you'd like to tell me while we're at it?"

Len considers this. "...did Danvers' group-chat mention my cold gun?" he finally asks, reaching down and patting the piece in question. He'd been carrying it with him in case Barry tried to come confront him or something, though luckily Barry hasn't.

Barry wouldn't. He knows that, now that he's thinking a bit more calmly. Not at a hospital, certainly, but not ever. He wouldn't force his presence on Len like that, thinking he was unwanted.

"At length, yeah," Mick says dryly. "Your new baby."

"Well," Len says, ignoring that. So what if his gun is the best, sweetest girl he's ever seen, once you exclude Lisa from the calculations? "What Danvers doesn't know is that it came as part of a set - one cold gun, one heat gun."

"Heat gun? Like a flamethrower?"

"Better - it manipulates the intensity of infrared waves. You can light anything on fire."

"Boss," Mick says. "I've already forgiven you for the whole pig thing. You don't need to heap on the presents."

"You saying you don't want it?"

"You bet your ass I want it!" Mick exclaims, laughing. "Man, I'm gonna need to thank this Allen guy when I meet him; you never used to give out such good gifts."

Len flinches. Just a little, but Mick notices, of course.

"Boss?"

"You won't, uh, you won't exactly be meeting him," Len says. "Anytime...ever."

"Why not?"

"Because after I found out about the secret prison thing, I had his foster dad arrested for corruption, got warrants to search the homes of his two best friends, and got Barry suspended from his job without pay pending investigation. So I don't think he's really in the mood to talk to me."

"...shit, boss," Mick says after a long few minutes. "You sure love to put the 'over' in 'over-reaction', don't you?"

"They committed crimes," Len says defensively. "Very bad crimes. And they should've known better!"

"Boss! Ain't you the one always telling me about how intent matters? Ain't they being manipulated by some mastermind creep asshole who's good enough to be playing the Families? Even criminal courts don't consider stuff done under duress and deception to be as bad!"

Len winces. That's...not actually wrong. Sure, they committed some fairly horrific crimes and they totally should've known better, but there were some extenuating circumstances he probably ought've thought a bit more about. Any man who could play not just one but multiple Families clearly had an edge when it came to mind games - and don't think Len hasn't noticed the way Barry'd described the toxic atmosphere and emotional jibes and the almost parental relationship the guy set up in his office, which is the sort of environment that can convince even otherwise intelligent people to do seriously shady things.

It's not an excuse, not at all. But it is something of an explanation. Probably not enough to knock down the charge from primary to accessory, but a judge could definitely look at that and find lots there to help mitigate -

"Boss..."

"I know, I know! You don't understand, I was just really angry -"

"Boss!" someone that is definitely not Mick exclaims, bursting through the door. "We've found something!"

Len is off the bed, one crutch in the air wielded as a club, before they even finish the sentence, and then he realizes it's just Detective Thawne and Iris.

"Oh, it's you," he says blankly. "How'd you even know to find me here?"

"Uh," Thawne says, eying the raised crutch warily. "Ms. Danvers told us. Pretty reluctantly. You - wanna put that crutch down? You're looking a bit unsteady."

Len rolls his eyes and does, sitting back down.

"Does that work?" Iris asks. "As an improvised weapon, I mean?"

"Better than you'd think," Len says dryly.

"How come he's still got crutches, anyway?" Mick asks from his bed. "Ain't it been months since he got fucked up?"

"Apparently he keeps tearing his injuries back open," Iris says.

"Damnit, boss..."

"That's not the reason," Len says, even though he kind of does do that more than he should. "It's because the second gunshot nicked my spine and it takes lots longer to heal from that."

"And you keep tearing your injuries back open," Iris says wisely.

"...and that," Len concedes grumpily.

"I'm Iris," she adds, waving at Mick. "Iris West. This is my fiancé, Eddie Thawne. We're helping Captain Snart here investigate the disappearances -"

"Heard of you," Mick says, waving in the general direction of his phone. "Skirt – uh, Danvers – she’s got a group-chat with running commentary up -"

"I want in," Iris says at once. “That sounds amazing.”

"- but you said West, right? Didn't the boss here just..? Why you still working with him after that?"

"Because my dad deserves to get into trouble over this shit," Iris says, an angry glint in her eyes. "Between the lying and the deception and the blatant aiding and abetting of human trafficking, I'm starting to wonder if I ever really knew him at all -"

"Hold up," Len says. "Fiancé? That's new. Congrats, both of you."

That works splendidly to derail Iris, who spends the next few moments showing them both her ring while Thawne blushes and smiles and is entirely unable to look away from Iris, stars in his eyes the whole time.

"Nice," Len says. "Tasteful - pretty, but with some class."

"I'd definitely steal it," Mick agrees.

"Definitely," Len agrees. “I could fence that in minutes.”

"You're both very sweet," Iris says. "And if it ever goes missing, I'll be sure to check with you two first. Anyway, not the point! We came here to tell you that we've figured it out!"

"The Families' 'big day'?" Len asks, immediately interested. "Or Wells' connection to it?"

"Both, actually," Thawne says, brightening. "It's complicated and - well, a little frightening, but we think we have an idea of where the rabbit hole leads, at least, although I wouldn't go as far as Iris and say we actually figured it out."

"We got a good start," Iris says, with dignity. "That's further than most people've gotten."

"And you managed to do it without being 'disappeared', well done you," Len drawls.

"He means that as a compliment," Mick remarks.

"Yes, we gathered," Iris says, grinning at him. "Listen to the tone, not the words, right?"

"Sometimes the tone'll mislead you, but yeah, generally. I usually use body posture - the more lounging, the better his mood."

Len pointedly straightens back up, causing Iris to snigger, Thawne to smile, and Mick to chuckle.

"What's this about Families, though?" Mick asks. "Thought Snart was focused on corrupt cops and government people now."

"I'm sure I can find a police corruption hook somewhere," Len says airily. "You know what they say, you can take the boy out of org crime work..."

"Not a real saying, Snart," Mick says, long-suffering. "Never was."

"Actually, you might have more of a hook than we originally thought," Thawne says. "You see, the Families -"

"Plural?"

"That's right, Mr. Rory -"

"Mick."

"Mick," Iris says with relish. She's going to use this to try to get permission to call Len by his name, he just knows she is. Pity she's doomed to disappointment. "Yes, Families, plural; we've confirmed that all the Families in Central have agreed to work together on this."

"All of 'em? Shit."

"Agreed," Len says.

"Shoulda stayed in the coma..."

"Don't say shit like that or I'll smack you with a crutch," Len tells him, then transfers his attention back to the other two. "So what is it? What's the big day? And, perhaps equally important, when?"

"We can answer your last question best," Thawne says. "We're still not sure exactly what the Families are planning - we know it involves a lot of movement, a lot of manpower, though probably a lot of that is just security - but we've identified what the major Central-wide event they're going to use to conceal their mobilization."

"You're not going to like it," Iris interjects.

"I never liked any part of this," Len points out. "Hit me."

"The Families' big day goes down on Election Day," Thawne says.

"...Election Day," Len says. "Election Day. Election Day?!"

He's pretty sure he's not adequately conveying the sheer horror he's feeling right now.

Election Day.

Not the one held in November, which is all well and good, but the important one for Central City purposes: the primary election that happens each year in May.

The day where the real candidate selection takes place.

Only one of the wildest days of the entire Central City social calendar.

Most of the country has faded into widespread apathy, not bothering with votes that they feel rarely matter, and all the more so when it's "only" a primary – but not Central City.

Oh, no, not Central City, with its still-functioning political machine with its armies of thugs available to help 'encourage' voting. Central City's government might be rife with corruption, yes, and one-party control is practically a given, but at some point some genius decided to deal with the fact that there are competing sources of corruption by allowing a total free-for-all when it came to who got the nod for what position.

Corporate candidates battle it out with nationalists and progressives and reformers and who-the-hell-knows-what-else. In Central, even the communists abandon their flag in favor of competing in the bloodbath of Election Day, knowing that the political machine would force the city - and with it, the state - to fall into line come the federal election day, a far less important date.

Election Day.

And the Families are moving.

Not a good combination.

Especially since –

“Election Day is tomorrow!” he exclaims.

"Yeah," Iris says grimly. "Not good at all. Like Eddie says, we haven't figured out exactly what they're up to, but if it's on Election Day, dollars to donuts is that it involves the election itself."

"And with the Commissioner hoping to run for mayor while the mayor runs for governor, getting anyone's attention to doing anything to stop them will be a trick and a half," Len says, equally grim. "What'd you find out about Wells?"

"We think he's being used as a liaison between the Families and more legitimate entities," Thawne says. "Although why -"

He cuts off in the middle of his sentence.

Quite reasonably, in Len's view, given that they are no longer alone in the room.

The Man in Yellow is here.

The name Barry gave him is apt, Len thinks; far more than the Reverse Flash. Beyond the monstrous speed, there's nothing of Barry here at all, not even a reflection.

Standing in the middle of the room with his entire body vibrating at a consistent blur that Barry hasn't mastered, utterly human but for his demonically bright red eyes, the Man in Yellow smiles.

"Don't let me interrupt you, gentlemen," he says, his voice as blurred as his face. He's being obnoxiously courteous, in a sort of arrogant narcissist way that suggests he's entertaining himself in the moments before he plans to kill them all. "You were saying -"

"And lady," Len interrupts, rising to his feet.

"...what?"

"Gentlemen, and lady," Len says. "I believe Iris identifies as a lady."

"I do," Iris says, looking somewhat perturbed by Len's sudden interest in grammar. "‘Gentlemen and lady’ is in fact correct."

The Man in Yellow - Wells himself, or someone in his employ - blinks those shining red eyes, clearly taken aback.

Len assumes he had some sort of introductory speech planned out. Too bad for him that Len isn’t the type to willingly subject himself to evil monologues.

"Would you like to move on to the part where you threaten to kill us all?" Len inquires. "Or do you generally just go straight to the actual murder?"

The Man in Yellow laughs, the sound ringing through the room. "I usually like to make a point of it," he says, raising a vibrating hand. It's moving as fast as a sawblade - if he touches any of them with that, they're done for. "But I think you're right that I should just move on to the main event -"

Len shoots him with the cold gun he'd wrestled into position while the Man in Yellow was distracted by Len’s grammatical non-sequitur.

The Man in Yellow screams.

"Iris, Thawne, run!" Len shouts, keeping the cold blast aimed dead center at the Man in Yellow's face and torso. He'd theorized, based on what happened when it hit Barry, that a hit straight to the head would be disabling to a speedster as long as the beam was maintained; with such key areas targeted, the speedster's body would prioritize healing the damage over anything else, robbing them of the presence of mind they would need to either run away or attack.

"Come with us!" Iris shouts back.

Len centers his legs, which have started shaking, and exhales through his nose. He needs both hands to aim the gun properly - two hands, which leaves none for his crutches; that's why he's been using the braces whenever he's gone out as Captain Cold. Still, all that PT is finally coming in handy: even without crutches, he can stand.

But not for long.

The second he falls back to sit on the bed, his hands will slip, and the beam will drift off target - only by a little, only for a second, but that's all the Man in Yellow will need to escape.

If he tries to leave, he might be able to keep the beam on him until he reaches the door -

But there's one person in the room who can't leave.

"I ain't leaving Mick," he shouts back. "Get out of here! Find a place to hide!"

Even at superspeed, hiding would force the Man in Yellow to look for them - they certainly can't hope to outrun him.

"You get out too!" Mick snaps even as Iris nods jerkily and hurries out, urged on by Thawne. "Boss -"

"I ain't picking something over you again and that's final!"

"Damnit, Len -"

Len's legs give out.

The Man in Yellow darts out of the beam, snarling in rage, his face - and it does look like Wells under what little is left of that mask, or the pictures Len's seen of him - still covered in ice and burned by swiftly healing frostbite.

And then there's a swift wind.

Len closes his eyes, expecting to die so quickly that he doesn't have time to question it - or perhaps to be taken to be tortured, if that's more Wells' speed -

Heh, speed.

Wait a second.

He hasn't been moved - his side would've been protesting if he had - and he's not dead, because he feels moderately sure he wouldn't be around to continue sniggering at puns if he was.

He opens his eyes.

The room is empty.

Wells is gone -

- but so is Mick.

"Mick!" Len cries out, even though he knows it's futile. The Man in Yellow has him.

Wells has his Mick.

"Snart!" Iris cries out, bursting into the room. There are tears of terror and rage streaming down her cheeks. "Snart - he took Eddie! I saw him - the red lightning! He took Eddie!"

"He took Mick, too," Len says, barely able to process it. He just got Mick back - he just fucking got Mick back after nearly losing him to people who hurt Mick because of Len, and here it is, happening all over again.

Mick wouldn't have been a target to the Families if it wasn't for Len, and what he did and who he was.

Mick wouldn't have been a target to the Man in Yellow, if it wasn't for Len's investigation.

Mick -

Mick, who is still bedridden, who is still hospital-bound, who will die if he didn't have the treatment he needed -

Mick is gone.

#coldflash #leonard snart #mick rory #barry allen #iris west #eddie thawne #eobard thawne #Harrison wells #my fic #an internal affair

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comicteaparty · 5 years

Text

November 9th-November 15th, 2019 Creator Babble Archive

The archive for the Creator Babble chat that occurred from November 9th, 2019 to November 15th, 2019. The chat focused on the following question:

How do you deal with a lack of engagement from your audience, both emotionally and physically?

IzzyNinjaMaster

Oooo now that's a good question. If my online audience doesn't respond, I personally always show any new page updates to my family and friends and get feedback and comments from them. Really great for support. But sometimes their not available or I don't have anything new to show them. When this happens, I just look to myself for support. I know that doesn't really make sense or sounds kinda cheesy but it's what I do. I get myself pumped up and excited for what I can do next in the story and how awesome it will look all drawn out. And I go from there, I'll start drawing out ideas or writing out new chapters. So just be your own hype man, not just with your comics either but with everything. Great for self esteem.

Sorry went on kind of a rant right there

carcarchu

I prepare myself emotionally to not have any expectations. If you expect nothing and receive something you'll always be happy!

IzzyNinjaMaster

Lol true very true XD

Deo101

I'm not completely sure what this question means by physically, but I just kind of keep making art to move past it. Something that has helped me a TON is to make art that's just for me (like, that I don't post anywhere). I think that if everything is made to be shared, then we get a little too used to trying to find validation with engagement. With comics, specifically, I try to make none of my goals relate to engagement. I only have goals for myself and what i'm producing. If I'm hitting all of my goals, then I feel good about what I'm doing! No one engaging with it is just kind of like "okay!" Another smaller thing that helps me is getting my work done well before I upload it! for some reason just getting a bit of time distance between when something is done and when I post it I dont feel so bad if people don't engage.

Cronaj

I'm fairly lucky that I have a small following on one of the sites I post on, so while some weeks might be slow with feedback or engagement, I'm usually not completely devoid. I also have some very supportive family members who read my comic and often comment or text me after I update. As for what I do personally when I don't have a lot of engagement? I do a lot of self-reflecting, which is probably not the healthiest of practices. I question what I'm doing, trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong and how I could improve. I also try to understand other external factors at play, such as my readers' personal lives, jobs, school, holidays, that might have delayed them from engaging with my work. For example, I know that during November, as we get closer to Thanksgiving, there is going to be a huge drop in readership, because a lot of my younger readers will be preparing for school finals and visiting with family. By knowing this, it helps me cope a lot better. And if all else fails, I vent to my fiance or my little sister. It really does help to have someone to whine at for a bit

khkddn

If I were to get completely zero engagement on something I'd do what I'd always do, message people I know irl like "validate meeeeeeee"

In general I just take a step back from what I've posted and focus on something else. That way I remember webcomics isn't everything, and by the time I check up on things again there might be some sort of audience response.

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I kept my work hidden for the first few years I was working on it (wanted to iron out any wrinkles before I was comfortable sharing) so in comparison, any engagement afterward - even a tiny amount - is pretty great! And even now, some updates get more traffic than others, for a lot of different reasons. Luck, timing, quality, etc. I always keep in mind that this project is - at its heart - for me and my own enjoyment/fulfillment. And if I’m pleased with where it’s going, that’s a win.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Oof, that question really hit me where it hurts. Over the years I’ve lowered my expectations, because while I used to have an active audience in the ‘00s, I’ve rarely gotten any engagement on my comics in the ‘10s. It’s definitely made me feel depressed and like a ‘failure’ to put heart and soul into my comics and art and get 0 reaction online. I honestly don’t have any way I ‘deal’ with it. I make something, hoping to get some comments > I get no comments > I get depressed about it and feel like my work is garbage. Rinse and repeat several hundred times. I keep going because I just love to create, but it’s like an actor trying to put on a performance and no one shows up to the play. It has gotten better lately and I’ve started getting some engagement for the first time in many years, but I honestly don’t have a good answer for how I handle that emotional reaction to reader silence.

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Also good to keep in mind that lots of people may read without commenting, and still enjoy it! I did a poll wondering who would be interested in doing guest art, and way more people responded than I expected. It opened my eyes! Sometimes you just can’t tell until you outright ask for feedback

keii4ii

There's definitely a risk to that, though. You ask and still get nothing. Or worse, you ask and get negativity. Asking is a worthy gamble, but it takes courage! Sometimes when we don't have enough courage, we gotta find it elsewhere first, before we can try that gamble...

I lost that gamble one too many times and need more Courage Fund before I can try again, lol

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

True true! It was a gamble I had no real expectations/assumptions about, so I didn’t have much room for disappointment. Even getting one person who says “This is cool!” is enough to fuel me for days. But I know that’s not how it is for everyone. Once you’ve been disappointed once, it can take a while to get the urge to try again. I can’t imagine getting negativity, though... I think THAT would wreck me.

keii4ii

Sometimes I don't even ask and someone just randomly drops negativity off at my doorstep... I need to remember that I have also had wonderfully positive responses, that it wasn't all negative. But it can be hard to remember that on bad days.

Deo101

Yeah, negative comments always seem to be the loudest ones... They can drown out dozens of good ones if they hit you right.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I did develop a pretty thick skin for negativity in art school, which was really fortunate because my comics garnered a lot of negative attention at first. Though thinking back on it, I was making very androgynous and gender non-conforming characters (even though I never stated anywhere that they were queer) in a time when the public attitude towards such things was far less kind than it is today. At the time it was draining to get so many trolls, but unless I was already having emotional difficulties in other areas of my life, I was able to let it roll off.(edited)

keii4ii

The weirdest thing with my negativity is 99% of them come from actual readers who mean well. So I have a hard time dismissing them like 'oh they're just haters.' It's not necessarily harder than dealing with blatant trolls, but it is an entirely different beast.

Deo101

Sometimes I go and reread positive comments when I'm down about things

Yeah I'm not sure that I've had any trolls tbh... Its all readers saying what they think

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Avid readers who give backhanded compliments and ‘well-meaning’ but very subjective critique can definitely be detrimental.

keii4ii

In Korea, I dunno if they're still a thing, but 1-2 decades ago there was this type of theft called slash theft. It's a type of pickpocketing, done on the street while walking by. They bump into you, briefly and lightly, but you don't think much of it because Seoul is a crowded city and you brush against other people all the time. But during that brief bump, they manage to slash open your purse and take all the contents. It's an amazing ninja level skill for sure. I know people who had their stuff stolen that way. Back to the Courage Fund analogy, sometimes a negative comment isn't just a normal theft of your Fund. The comment slashes your purse open, and now your bag can't contain Fund even if you put more and more into it.

It can take a long time and lots of support to sew your purse back.

Deo101

Idk if other places to slash theft, im sure they do, but im pretty sure historically its been a big thing. The term "cutpurse" comes to mind

keii4ii

(:o I didn't know that was a term! The more you know)

Deo101

(some book i read (wasn't great but you know) used the term a lot and i was like "ok wtf is this")

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

That’s a very good analogy for it, and I definitely understand what you mean. I had to take a three year hiatus from one of my comics once after a IRL ‘friend’ ripped the comic apart and called me a terrible writer in less-than-kind words. I had already been going through some very bad things with my health and family and it hurt me far more than it should. It took some encouragement from some very dedicated readers to convince me to pick up the comic again.

Deo101

(so i associate it with pirates now)

That's really terrible lee... Om glad you picked it back uo though!!!

keii4ii

I can super relate to harsh comments hurting way more than they should, when you're already in a bad state. >_<

Deo101

And also it is a really good analogy keiiii

Yeah things just kinda get harder to deal with in general when you're more tired/upset in other areas

keii4ii

The most devastating feedback I've got would have done far less damage if I weren't in a fragile state at the time.

Deo101

Like you can't go be safe elsewhere if everything is a source of stress...

keii4ii

(For all we know those slashers in Korea could be pirates )

Deo101

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Does Korea have pirates? If so, I’m moving to Korea.

(Sorry, we’ve probably gone way off topic for the discussion)

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I got antsy when someone made a small critique of my lettering (rightfully so, though - lettering is hard and I’m still learning) so a proper heart-stabbing, bad-faith critique might sideline me for a while. Gotta be prepared for that someday

Deo101

Its weird, it really seems to be mostly about how I'm doing elsewhere in life now that im thinking about it. Also being further along in the comic helps cause I've got years of support and "just keep chuggin" under my belt

Like the other day someone critiqued me randomly and called my characters stupid and i was like "dam ok, your comment getting deleted then" but a year or so ago a comment like "I'm sorry im a little confused..." Made me second guess everything for weeks

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Ohhh Maybe the obviously mean/troll comments are easier to deal with, than feeling you let down a reader who was genuinely trying to understand the story. I would definitely react similarly.

Deo101

Iunno, the big old critique was a normal reader who has left other comments he jusy kinda randomly did it. But yeah I think it can be easier to shrug off things that are CLEARLY antagonistic versus someone being harmlessly confused

Because confusion can mean I'm not being clear enough and need to change things and whatever. Its vague in a way that hits your anxiety

keii4ii

Yeah, when someone is obviously being a jerk, you know it's on them

omg... reader confusion has been the bane of my existence

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I dunno, man, art school just toughened me up to most negative comments. If one person out of five is confused, I don’t take it personally and just explain it to them to clear up confusion. If everyone’s confused I think ‘Hmm, maybe I should retcon in some dialogue to make it more clear’. I guess art school really teaches you to distance yourself from your work and be very objective about it. BUT as I said, I’m not immune when other bad things are going on and it becomes the straw that broke the camel’s back.

Deo101

Though THEN you kinda get like "why am I being a target???" And its very frustrating, at the very least, and it does definitely still hurt... (Wrt trolls)

keii4ii

It's hard to tell who's confused and who isn't sometimes

Deo101

Yeah Lee im in art school right now, but for me its different when I make something to be critiqued versus a passion long term project

If I am asking for critique too, im braced for it in a way I'm mentally prepared for. Im not always braced to have someone be like "its pretty good buuut..."

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Ahh, I can understand that. I guess I’m able to view my passion projects the same way I did my school projects. It took time, that’s for sure. It’s a process of desensitisation, and was something I had to build up over years.

keii4ii

I'm disproportionately sensitive about reader misinterpretations/confusion. I'm 95% sure it's because one bad experience. Someone thought my main story was garbage, but they liked parts of it, so they told me to basically make a different story using those parts. After that, every time a reader didn't recognize the main story (I got a very prominent B plot, so it's kinda understandable that some people mistake it as the A), I got vivid flashbacks of that one bad experience. Every time someone said they liked [this character that The Other Person liked], I got flashbacks. Took me good 2-3 years to get over it.

Deo101

Its also a lil different when it's like.. i wont be changing these pages so unless it's a critique for moving forward its kinda pointless and i cant really apply it

Damn keiiii that's really rough

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yeah, that sucks.

keii4ii

Yeah, it's hard to be motivated when the underlying message is "your first 100 pages are hot garbage, but you can still improve........ even if readers will give up long before they get to the decent 101st page!"

Deo101

RIGHT...

I don't want to have to preface "check out my comic!" Wirh "i promise it gets better..."

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

COUGH That’s exactly why I’m reduxing Eryl’s hot garbage beginning right now COUGH

Also because I’m a masochist and perfectionist.....

keii4ii

I think "it gets better" is fine when it's a reader reccing it. (I remember some of my friends reccing multi-season anime series to each other, going, "it gets better after season 1") But yeah, as the author we can't be the ones saying it.

Deo101

Mhm.

And I'm still hapoy with my old pages. I know I could do them better now but they're perfectly fine and they get the job done so... Idk its just hard when someone is like "wow two years ago you made a mistake, :/"

Like. Yeah, duh... I've spent like a thousand hours on pages theres gonna be some mistakes

keii4ii

It took me a long time to realize that Flaws =/= Problems

Deo101

I'm learning and getting better youre gonna have to bare with me here

Nutty (Court of Roses)

are you kidding i still get crit on stuff i made TEN years ago

Deo101

Mhm

keii4ii

omg

Deo101

Well its not a competition

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Same, Nutty

Nutty (Court of Roses)

True sorry ;;

Deo101

Ur name just changed colors keiiii

You: flaws =/= problems Your name: im ascending

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I think...learning how to like not be bothered by negativity that much is a skill. Super freaked out one time when someone said they didn't know what's going on when reading HotV whoops

(turned out they just had to re-read a bit and it was just webcomics being webcomics)

Deo101

I had a group of readers say they were co fused and one person asked me to explain the last 2 chapters and i was like "holy shit am i being this unclear????"

Its stressful for sure

Nothjng wrong with being concerned with ut

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Keiiii has reached a new plane of existence. The blue is unrefutable proof

Deo101

Its something you're passionate about and you want to be as good as it can be

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Yeah...

Deo101

So any critique, regardless of validity will be something you WANT to consider

Which is fine and theres nothing wronf with taking things to heart like that

But also if youre Happy with it that's all that matters

You gotta be your #1 fan kinda thing

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I'm personally super uh...yeah I am having a hard time dismissing criticism

even if it's in bad faith, haha.

keii4ii

The #1 fan thing sometimes reminds me of that scene from Lilo & Stitch

The scene of Lilo's rag doll. It's been years since I watched it, so memory's a bit fuzzy, but I think all the kids were showing off their dolls, and Lilo wanted to show off hers too

but the other kids didn't like her homemade-looking doll, and it made her sad, almost not like her doll for a moment

but she picks up the doll again afterward

There are days where I relate to that. I never not-love my story and my characters, but sometimes I feel like everyone else has a low opinion of it, you know?

and I'm like lonely Lilo hugging her rag doll in the sad corner

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Yeah I totally get that and...loving what you do first and foremost is really important. I don't think in a medium like webcomics you would be able to keep going

keii4ii

I'll always love my Doll but I do wish this little corner weren't so lonely, kinda thing

Deo101

I feel that keiiii

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Hmm

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

When the ‘critique’ is detrimental it does become a problem. Like that ‘friend’ I was talking about earlier who bashed Eryl to bits. He told me to ‘read some Stephen King’ to learn how to write. I was making a high fantasy story, not a horror story. The writing of a horror author is simply not applicable to building a good fantasy adventure story. That’s when I knew he was full of shit. But the damage had been done, and I lost all motivation for the project for years.

keii4ii

uuugh, I'm so sorry that it happened to you D:

Deo101

Also this story is one that i have dropped and picked up SO many times, and its wildly changed over and over, and so i worry a lot im not making it in its final form, i suppose. I worry i started it too young, and so critique of the older parts hits that anxiety

Wow lee that's terrible...

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Gosh...

Deo101

Also you can't really compare Novel writing to comics imo. The structure can be compared but...

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I think HotV is like a project I've worked on since...2008? And it changed with me and I feel pretty confident that it's in its final stage.

keii4ii

and not every story needs to be a Stephen King story

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

But yeah, you can really not compare writing for novels to writing for comics wth

nah

tbh it's weird (I like King personally) but his stories and also his writing do have flaws too so

what

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I actually do use novels as a source to study how to construct my comics. But! Studying the right genre is important. I’ve the feeling the only books that guy read were Stephen King, so that’s the only kind of story he was familiar with.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

God when I was still developing a picture I did got featured somewhere and someone criticised the way I did knees and linked to the picture of another artist going: Hey draw knees like that

Deo101

Every story will have flaws, its impossible to make one that is perfect. Well. Its impossible to make a story thats perfect for everyone. So alk you can do is try to make a story thats perfect for you!

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Agreed, Deo

keii4ii

^ THAT REMINDS ME

Deo101

Omg

keii4ii

(going back to the original question) With no response, or negative response, one thing that helps me is hearing other people gush about their beloved unpopular stories!

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Hmmm

Deo101

!!!!!! Me too!!!!!!!!!

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I am having this problem and went to ask on twitter what ppl loved about their projects

and that's really uplifting somehow

Deo101

I LOVE reading other comics and just seeing how much passion is in them its like a light

keii4ii

I need to remember that just because someone, or even a lot of someones, thinks a story is trash, doesn't make it the universal truth

Deo101

^^^

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I WILL GUSH ALL DAY BOUT MY BELOVED UNPOPULAR STORIES and once you open that damn I am unstoppable. You will regret it, trust me.

keii4ii

And people gushing about their unpopular favorites is an excellent way of reminding myself

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

hehe

Deo101

I have been very lucky and have had a few incredibly kind people who i can remember fondly when i worry my story isnt reaching people. I Know it has touched a few lives, and if it makes even ONE person happier (even if thay person is me) then im doing my job and its worth all the time and effort.

That was kind of off topic i swear it connected in mt mind

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Absolutely

I feel it's connected

Deo101

Phew

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

bc hmm it's a way to deal with times when there is not much engagement?

Deo101

Aha! There we go yes :)

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I do generally write very off-beat, unpredictable stories because I like reading / watching those kinds of things. A lot of my favourite movies bombed at the box office because they weren’t formulaic, which was what I loved about them.(edited)

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Remind yourself that there is people who enjoy what you do and who are happier bc of it C:

Deo101

Mhm ^^

Also i have my characters on a shirt so i can just wear that and be like "fuck yeah. I have a shirt. It cant be a bad comic if I've got merch babeyyyy"

Which admittedly is a very odd way of dealing with anxiety

But like.... You should get your Characters on a shirt.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

dfhwioufheuf Deo that's cool tho

I made so many like...background designs and posters for HotV and some of those I WANT ON A SHIRT

Oh I think what also helps me is to find a friend and just talk about the comic?

Deo101

The place i use lets you get up to 6 items a month as a sample order and it's severely discounted my shirt was like $15

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I should do that. I have designed some T-shirts but that wasn’t for personal stuff.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

omg

keii4ii

I'm actually in the (long) process of re-learning how to talk about my comic

Deo101

And yeah for sure having people i csn talk with/joke with about my comic helps soooo much

Like the fact that i know these 5 people will get my jokes like this

THAT helps a TON

These people actually are the reason I was confident enough to be able to start after having a bad friend drive me to almost drop the story for good

So having their support is probably one of the biggest things thst helps if no one else engages.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Okay, so on the original subject of ‘How to deal with no feedback’ I do talk about my stories a lot with my two best friends. They are my biggest fans and my sounding boards. They let me go on and on about plot threads in my comics and it’s one of the main reasons I keep going. Even when I get 0 reaction online, I still have two people who I know are reading the comic and think I should keep going.

Deo101

Or like, when my family is being homophobic about my work kinda thing. Friends are good for that...

Yessss lee having people you can talk with about it is SO good

keii4ii

ngl, I'm jelly of those of you who have go-to support friends who are genuinely into your story! That's something I hope to have some day, myself

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I don’t know whether to give a sad react for homophobic family or a happy react for supportive friends

Deo101

Happy react ^^

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Still sorry about your homophobic family tho, but your friends sound awesome

Deo101

Yeah but :> I know I'm doing good work. Again those few people who i know my story has touched.. i know I'm doin good work.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

@keii4ii Just know I’ve been an acid fan of your comics for over 10 years and honestly think they’re some of the best comics I’ve ever read

AVID

NOT ACID(edited)

keii4ii

Hey acid is important too

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

GOD MY PHONE

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

hiodcnioefwe acid

love this

I have one friend who has supported me since 2007 and I can always count on her freaking out about my comics Y_Y

so when I feel especially bad I turn to her

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

My phone is old and the keyboard lags and autocorrects like AAAAARGH(edited)

Deo101

Its okay same here lee

Typo club babeyyyy

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I have to edit almost every comment I make THANKS A LOT PHONE

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

shakes fist at ur phone to be more kind

I can't type on phone at all so...

keii4ii

Yeah, swipe-typing is high level sorcery to me

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

As someone who’s normally a grammar freak it causes me great pain that my texting is a syntactical disaster.

Deo101

I've been doing swipe a bit lately so it doesn't hurt my hands to text (I Tex too much)

keii4ii

This actually makes me wonder

What are some good, safe(ish) ways to reach out to people who may be 1000% willing to become that Support Pillar for your comic?

Deo101

I just straight up start doing it

keii4ii

For all I know they exist. But.. Schrödinger's pillar

Deo101

And gague the reaction

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

As an antisocial gremlin who hides under a rock, I have no idea.

Pakky

never hurts to ask

keii4ii

@Pakky You would be surprised

Deo101

Start sharing art, see if theyre curious, get deeper if they're good with it, kinda thinf

I've got friends who like to see my art but don't really care about my comic, and you kinda just gotta take it case by case

Pakky

mm fair enough, i always try to be supportive of content creators mostly because i would hope for the same in return. theres a lot of bluntness in my industry so if you do well you get praise but if you do poorly, you very well know it :/

keii4ii

Me: "Thank you for supporting my humble comic!" (this wasn't even asking, just thanking) Reader: "Well, your comic isn't that good." Me: "?????????"

Deo101

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I’ll be honest, on the rare occasion a reader starts trying to get really close to me, my dumb brain freaks out and I put some distance in because I have Issues for days.

Pakky

thats just rude on their part

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

what

holy fuck

keii4ii

I've Been Burned

omg, that question mark react is so appropriate

Deo101

I've chatted with some readers here or there but I don't know if id wanna use them as a support pillar

I kind of have trained myself to think readers as fickle.

If they get sick of my story, theyre allowed to leave

They dont owe me their time or energy and them being here is a gift

So I'll chat and stuff and answer questions but unless someone is my friend i will not lean on them for support.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Honestly it’s happened that I’ve gad readers try to get really close or be my sounding board, and I think they were just trying to be enthusiastic and supportive but my stupid broken brain always panics and goes WARNING STALKER ALERT WARNING ABORT ABORT.

Deo101

Hey better safe than sorry

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

juppp

Deo101

I'll chat but i wont give personal information and im not gonna like, get all into spoiling everything im planning lmao.

If someone asks me a question thats a spoiler ill answer it in private

But bringing raw ideas up for help... I need very specific people for thst.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

The thing is they weren’t even being creepy or trying to get really personal. They were just very friendly and I apparently can’t handle that. ><

Deo101

The friend group i get writing helo on are all writers, and they all understand my vision. They don't write stories like mine, i dont write stories like theirs, and we all fully understand our suggestions may go unfollowed.(edited)

Also whoever put the eye emoji yeah if u have a question straight up dm me and I'll answer.

keii4ii

It's okay, your comfort is important. If you want to be more open, you can work on that. But not everyone has the same comfort level and that's okay too

Deo101

Yes! Its all about what you're comfortable with

But I've personally got a small curated group of writers/artists who all circulate our work between eachother

Which i know is very rare.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Same, Deo...helped me a lot and I also know who to turn to when I'm down about engagement

Deo101

Mhm ^^

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

(also they are all perceived better than me so I believe them if they say sth nice)

Deo101

Omg

That group of people have done SO much for me honestly. Im thinking about them. I love my friends.

Also dont worry its nit all about me they also talk about and we help their work too i wanna be sure thats clesr

keii4ii

I figured it was all mutual! but now that you've said it's not all about you I'm suddenly imagining The Cult of Deo

That is 10000000% wonderful though

Deo101

I walk in and I'm like "y'all check out this new millennium lore" and they all take their hoods off and start scouring it for plotholes

keii4ii

Whilst sitting in a circle (a magic circle to be exact)

Deo101

Of course of course

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Damn, that’s awesome! I only see my friends every few months so I dump a lot of plot on them all at once, and it’s harder for them to give really detailed critique. XD

Deo101

Oh, I do this all online

Irl I sit down with my sister and we talk for 4 hours and Lose our voices LMAO

Cronaj

Good convos literally ALWAYS happen while I'm at work

keii4ii

I'm still here

Cronaj

Good, because it made me sad when you said you didn't have a support pillar

And that readers are fickle (which can be true)

But I don't think you know how much I love your comic

keii4ii

I'm seriously honored! I still fear that maybe people are not seeing the story I'm trying to tell, and are following the comic for some other reasons (which is valid, just not what I'm trying to achieve). But hey, I'll never find out if I don't keep going, right?

kayotics

keiiii, i love your comic and i think it's beautiful in many ways, not just the art

but also, on the topic of lack of engagement... I'm pretty fortunate in that my spouse is always really supportive of my comic, so when I need a little pep talk I can always ask them

sssfrs

I’m trying to collect as much negative feedback as I can so that I’ll know my comics strengths and weaknesses and I’ll be prepared to take criticism as it comes in the future. It is pretty frustrating having no response or fanbase right now but I started my comic pretty recently and theres still time for growth

Glowbat (Aloe)

when you're collecting feedback be mindful that there's a difference between constructive criticism and people being unhelpful and simply telling you they don't like your work

the latter wont do anything but bruise your self confidence(edited)

keii4ii

Yeah, and sometimes even well-meaning critiques can miss the point too, like if it comes from someone who thinks your work should be X, when it is intended to be Y. Easy example: My previous comic was a depressing drama centering around a terminally ill young woman and her doctor, and once someone told me I "needed more fight scenes." It wasn't even an action comic! In that case, the lack of fight scenes was not a weakness. It simply meant the comic wasn't for that person.

DanitheCarutor

On the topic of lack of engagement. My answer is really boring, but I just keep working on my comic regardless of how much/little engagement it gets. I never intended or expected to have an audience to begin with since my comic has sooo many problematic elements in it, whenever I get feedback it's super nice! Always a surprise, like seeing the machine light up when winning $500 on the penny slots! (In a way, getting engagement is kinda like gambling. You post a page and you may or may not win some comments in return... Not equating real people to items to win, of course!) Admittedly, if there is a page I feel would cause reaction but I get nothing, it is a little sad. It's not the end of the world, though! I got a story to tell, and as long as I can still draw I'm content.

kayotics

i relate to that a lot, Dani. I also never intended to make the comic for anyone but me, so the fact that anyone reads it is really exciting to me.

Cronaj

@keii4ii (Potentially off-topic, but is there somewhere to read your other comic(s)? Or are they all in Korean?)

DanitheCarutor

@kayotics Every so often I look at my reader base and think "Man, there are people into this kind of stuff??" It's an almost surreal feeling.

kayotics

Yeah I get it! I wouldn’t say mines too out there but there’s so many other fantasy dnd inspired comics out there that they could read that I’m surprised they even glance at mine.

AntiBunny

How do I deal with it? Usually experience a series of emotions such as "how hard is it to leave one little comment you losers?" Then "Who am I kidding, no one is reading this, I'm creating into a void," and finally pry a few comments from people who know me personally, reassure myself that I create out of a compulsion to tell my stories even if no one's reading, and start the process all over for next week. Not exactly a healthy method I admit.

keii4ii

@kayotics There is only one Toivo out there

@Cronaj aaaa the previous one was in English. But I would not recommend it It's unfinished (though it does have more than 600 pages IIRC) and honestly really rough.

kayotics

@keii4ii true....... one weird wizard boy

Cronaj

Dang... I LOVE medical stories. I'm seriously addicted to them. @keii4ii

keii4ii

I enjoy them too and I appreciate your interest!

Cronaj

scours the internet for the lost records

keii4ii

The site layout is also broken so yeah...

I guess another thing I do is try to comment more on other people's comics, to rec them publicly, etc. Being the change I want. I don't do this as often as I want, but I think/hope even the little bit I do counts.

mathtans

Heh, I'm basically with Cap'n Lee in terms of a cycle. I think part of my issue is I won a fanfic competition in 2004, and it's kind of been downhill since. I've posted regularly to a serial site for over 4 years, accumulating 300 posts, and last month it had 100 total views... there's been 2 comments since March.

On the actual comic side though (not serial) I've relaunched it more than once, and tried to flag the more recent index as a starting point. And yeah, just hold on to the few good comments, like the guy who applauds me for continuing to post even though I only have 10 people following on Tapas.

These days, of course, I'm too darn BUSY to really think much about the lack of engagement. So one solution might be to get married and have a kid. Then you're just happy when you manage to get content out, never mind if anyone remarks on it.(edited)

Mharz

Popping here just to answer the question becos it's interesting. The lack of engagement was a bane in my existence and honestly one of the factors why I had to see a psychiatrist. My doctor told me I have self-esteem issues which leads me to seek validation from strangers. This is the first thing I work on. I have to be confident enough to not break even if nobody likes my stuffs. Which means I have to love myself first. (People prolly see me as vain at this point) Second thing I do is keep a mentality of "nobody has to care. They have things going on as well" which helps me appreciate the small percentage of people who actually took the time to engage, talk, and be friends with me. I also try to put a positive spin on it. "Nobody cares therefore I can make as much noise on my social media as I want and no one will bother criticizing becos nobody cares." If people unfollow, it's on them. It just means they're not really a fan of my work and I shouldn't waste my time. And if my mental illness is too much, then I will disconnect from the online world a bit. Treat myself. Do something fun like gaming and baking and hang out with friends IRL if possible.

Mharz

I sometimes think it's karma on my end becos I'm so vain, I rarely get interested in anything so I'm not really a fan of many stuffs so that is something I accepted as well.

AntiBunny

Perhaps being a webcomic author sort of goes hand in hand with needing validation.

MJ Massey

OH BOY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT A LACK OF ENGAGEMENT?!

over the past week, I got 24 users. Granted, I didn't update, so that's probably why

So this is a four month overview of my website traffic. I hit a high of 184 unique users in August, and after that it plummeted to just barely over 100. And I hadn't really done anything different

I have never really gained a lot of traction with my comics. I'll admit that Black Ball definitely has more appeal than my last comic, so I have slowly been building an audience with it, but it's still been very slow. Sometimes it feels like I have to adhere to some extra set of rules while others can just throw up their comic on Tapas and have instant success. Of course, that's not the case at all

the key is to remember "why am I doing this? isn't it because I love making comics?!"

and to keep on pushing, keep up that hustle, and enjoy the ride. Make great content and it will be rewarding in and of itself

carcarchu

I'm not really sure it's as simple as simply throwing something up on tapas and getting instant success. there's a lot of work that goes behind every comic even if you don't perceive it

MJ Massey

well yes of course, I'm just saying sometimes it SEEMS like that

I'm a marketing professional, so I know there's a lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes

Glowbat (Aloe)

theres, i think, a lot of factors in certain comics gaining traction faster than others that are mostly out of a creator's control. on mirror sites like webtoons or tapas you have to factor that more attention is given to certain genres and art styles over other because of what that crowd likes. if they're into slice of life romances in anime-esque styles then someone who writes fantasy mysteries in a more western influenced style may not get as much love as they deserve

its tough out there

ive been fairly fortunate to gain a steady bit of followers on tapas but on webtoons my reader engagement and subs are significantly lower

Glowbat (Aloe)

i chalk it up to the type of crowd

MJ Massey

I've been analyzing my audience and my work and have a hypothesis that my work just works better in bulk format. I think 2020 will be a year of transitioning into bulk distro instead of the page at a time format

and see if that helps. As well as some new marketing techniques and getting back into the con circuit

Kabocha

A lack of engagement... This is definitely... a topic. I feel like, sure, one's general marketability in any given platform will definitely make it easier or harder to attract an audience, but on the other hand? It's also worth making sure you kinda figure out what you want out of webcomics. Some people have been working on their projects (or existing within a fandom) for years - decades, even at this point, which can be a big boost to initial readership on a new project! Other people just have the advantage of being able to sit down and advertise, or having someone do that for them. Personally, though. I went in not expecting to get an audience, and for a long time, actively avoided even having a comment section on my site. I just enjoy making comics and creating things - and if it happens to make someone happy, that's awesome. But comics and art aren't the only thing I do in my life that make me happy, and I've found engaging other people directly about things like comic craft and resources to be about 100x more fulfilling than posting comics themselves. (And it is fun, sometimes, to gush about my OCs and how dumb they can be.) But how do I cope with it? Eh, it's honestly not a big deal to me. It feels less stressful in some regards, because the dayjob can get hella hectic, and trying to balance "OH GOD COMICS" with "OH GOD THE SERVERS NEED PATCHED ALL NIGHT TONIGHT" can be.... interesting.

(But oh god, I will admit, having someone come up to me and say, "I read your thing or used your photoshop/csp brushes" can be incredibly motivating. But other days, I have to be my own motivation, so...)

kayotics

Sometimes it’s helpful to keep a list of really nice comments or to write down memories of when someone told you they like your work. This can take a while to gather but if someone says something nice about your work, keeping it somewhere safe for a day you’re feeling bad can help boost that morale

It also helps me sometimes to think about how there’s a TON of people who never comment on things, but they’re probably regularly reading.

MJ Massey

Totally! I was building a landing page for my email subscription, and I was able to go back and find old reviews from my last comic, and it really got me pumped

Kabocha

Yeah! When I worked in a call center, the metrics on calls in -> surveys was something like... At best, you get 10% of your callers leaving surveys. And it's usually because you left an impression (good or bad). Usually the reality was at best, you'd hear back from about 2% of your userbase unless you gave them an incentive them to say something.

Mharz

re tapas and other platforms: I have to agree that certain genres really are more appealing there. I have two comics with different genres that I regularly update and the numbers are literally like night and day. It's a sad truth.

Mharz

I also love getting notifs on tapas when a person is binging my comics and liking every update. It means I got them hooked. :'3(edited)

nice reminder that there ARE people who like my comics.

Kabocha

Well yeah - even in traditional publishing, some genres generally get larger readerships than others (and higher advances) because they're more easily marketed. There's a reason why some publishers will categorize what's basically a fantasy story with romance subplots as a "romance" overall for a relatively unknown author (it's because they're more likely to attract more readers because romance is HUGE)

MJ Massey

true that

and you have to find where you audience lives as well

Kabocha

Yeah... I have some readers who only engage when they come back to catch up, which can be every 6weeks or more. Some only read when a chapter is done being posted, which is about every six months.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Re: Tapas. Yeah, Tapas especially has very particular styles and genres it likes (anime style + romance, especially BL). I posted Children of Shadow there for six months and had 20 total subs before taking it down. A while later I tried posting it on Webtoons and got 60 subs in one week. That level of engagement slowed down considerably almost immediately though, because the prologue episode is in colour and the main series is greyscale - and I discovered the hard way that the majority of Webtoons’ users do not like greyscale (I even got rating-bombed over it). My second comic is doing much better on Webtoons since it’s in digital colour rather than pencil like Children of Shadow. Each platform has its specific interests and it can be a struggle to get noticed if you’re not making something that falls into its normal styles and genres.

Glowbat (Aloe)

both tapas and webtoons really dont push their scifi comics hardly at all. Tapas' top scifi section is littered with discontinued stories (at least theyve abandoned tapas at any rate idk if theyre for sure no longer continued) which means that because i update weekly and sorta fall into a semi-anime inspired style i get some decent traffic from the small demographic who go hunting for a scifi comic

RebelVampire

That's not that surprising, tbh. Even in the realm of novels sci-fi is more of a hunt for where the audience is sometimes.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Scifi is an under-appreciated genre, imo. Unless you’re Star Wars, Star Trek or a Marvel comic, it seems like people don’t talk much about scifi.

It might help boost views if you rework your genre labels on places like Webtoons. Like, have Adventure or Drama as your main genre tag and Scifi as your secondary genre.

Glowbat (Aloe)

actually ever since avas demon went on webtoons ive been getting about 10-15 subs a week there

for a while i had listed aloe as drama first but the results werent fantastic as i think that genre has been flooded over there

keii4ii

I think sci-fi has some very prominent associations with the genre that don't apply to every sci-fi story -- e.g. the first thing a lot of people immediately think of is spaceship explody battles. So if someone sees sci-fi and they're not into spaceship explody battles, they won't read.

Glowbat (Aloe)

i may try adventure though if scifi doesnt pan out

keii4ii

Alternatively, if someone sees sci-fi and they ARE into that... and only that... they will leave once they find out the comic is not about that

Glowbat (Aloe)

thats also a good point

keii4ii

I've had similar difficulties even though fantasy is more widely accepted these days as a more varied mega-genre

People expect X, comic contains only a sprinkling of X and is about Y instead.

Glowbat (Aloe)

in my personal case, i've alienated potential readers i feel sometimes simply by having the cast be primarily lgtbq with an agender lead. but i dont regret that and im happy to have it deter people who arent down for that

RebelVampire

That is definitely true about sci-fi. Film has really biased people as to what fits sci-fi, where in reality sci-fi is a really wide genre. So a lot of stuff never gets a chance cause it confuses people.

Nutty (Court of Roses)

Yooooo i feel that, glowbat. On one hand, I want ppl to know that my comic is a safe read for LGBT, but at the same time I know that announcing it as such will deter others on principle.

The Q - working on WAYFINDERS

I feel the same way. The whole cast of Wayfinders is some form of lgbt+, but we don't actually adress it much, because it's an adventure story moreso than a romance. So it's like.... how do we tell the readers it ain't straight

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Fantasy does seem to get drowned by numbers. Eryl gets about 5 new subs per update and Children of Shadow only gets 1-2, and I think they’re just getting lost in the crowd.

Nutty (Court of Roses)

Two of my characters jokingly told each other their identity through bard puns, plus I keep pushing for gay ships within the story, so I'm pretty overt with my readers about it ahaha.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

@The Q - working on WAYFINDERS I’m having some difficulty with that dilemma, too. Both my comics feature large LGBTQ+ casts but romance isn’t the focus of either. It often feels like there’s no good way to bring it up naturally until the romance threads surface very far into the story, and I’m always worried about homophobes lashing out when they eventually discover the comic is G A Y

Glowbat (Aloe)

in my descriptions i describe the comic as a lgbtq+ themed scifi flat out

keii4ii

Early in HoK, one character embarks on a journey for a personal reason, and the MC tags along. I've semi-recently heard from an American friend that she didn't really get the character's reason. He wanted to take a younger family member away from a bad living situation, but to the friend, the situation didn't seem so bad. After some talking, we realized it was a cultural thing. The situation was very obviously bad to Koreans, but it didn't/doesn't seem like a far departure from the range of normal life in the US, for cultural/societal reasons. I suspect that was a big part of the reason why people kept pegging my comic as a "fun adventure romp" despite the lack of fun adventures (it has elements of adventure, but is not that as a whole). The reason for the journey seemed superficial, like the author (me) just needed an excuse to start the Fun Adventure-Filled Journey. Whereas Korean readers, back when I was publishing it in Korean, immediately understood it was an intensely personal, difficult task that the shy boy decided to accept for the sake of love.

And yeah, LGBTQ+ as a tag/ part of the description seems like a good option to me too!

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

But then I’m also anxious that LGBT folks will think that’s false advertising because the characters’ labels aren’t mentioned until really far into the story (and it’s no where near that point yet). Aaaagh maybe I just overthink everything.

Glowbat (Aloe)

its really interesting to hear the difference in reception HoK gets

keii4ii

Yeah and the setting itself apparently feels different, too! To Koreans, it evokes secondhand nostalgia. But some non-Koreans have told me it feels fantastical and Ripe For Adventures

Glowbat (Aloe)

I feel you Lee- almost none of my chars have mentioned or done anything to illustrate their identities yet

keii4ii

(I also feel the need to mention, there have been non-Korean readers who got what HoK was about. Those readers mean so much to me! But I don't know if they understood that particular detail about Danbi's motivation for the journey early on.)

The Q - working on WAYFINDERS

(I'm gonna put so much lbgt+ love in the background of the story everytime they get to a new city ahahahaha >:) )

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

To me, @keii4ii HoK is very reminiscent of Studio Ghibli films because I get similar whimsical vibes. But Studio Ghibli has always been more about emotional journeys so after a couple chapters I was like ‘Ah, yes, I think this comic is about the characters’ emotional growth’(edited)

Holmeaa - working on WAYFINDERS

(muhahhaa, also just let Sallly flirt with all the ladies in the BG)

Glowbat (Aloe)

yesss flirt with ladies

MJ Massey

I'm worried that my comic is not "gay enough" to warrant the LGBT+ label. The character's sexualities have very little to do with the actual story, and one character is actively hiding their identity

The Q - working on WAYFINDERS

SAME

keii4ii

I'm aro/ace/agender and I don't really feel "LGBTQ+ enough" so I can't really use the LGBTQ+ label for my own comic, even though I know the label isn't exclusively for ownvoices stories.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I admit I’m not sure I ‘got’ Danbi’s motivations on a cultural level, but I felt like the tone being presented in that scene made it pretty clear she was in a bad situation?(edited)

Holmeaa - working on WAYFINDERS

but... we have calculated a total of 1 straight character in our whole comic.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

‘She’ as in the niece, not Danbi. XD(edited)

MJ Massey

that's what it seemed like to me too, or at least that by leaving their village they were going to a better situation

Glowbat (Aloe)

first of all- high fives keii because agender solidarity and second of all if you have chars who identify as either not straight or not cis or both rolled into one then its gay enough to have the lgbtq label

to heck with gate keepers

there are plenty of queer peeps who just want to read stories that casually include people like themselves

but if you dont feel its needed you dont have to either

MJ Massey

I guess there is a certain expectation when you say "I make an LGBTQ+ comic" of how that comic will be, and I don't want to disappoint people or set them up to expect something different

I just figure that all kinds of people exist in the world, so I should include as many different kinds of people as I can in my work

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I probs should just put LGBTQ+ labels in the descriptions and be like ‘this is genre fiction but almost everyone’s queer even though you can’t tell yet’. XD

Nutty (Court of Roses)

I use the term "LGBT-friendly" to indicate that they're present, but might not be the full focus

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I write genre stories because I’m not that into romance-centric stories myself. I want queer heroes in the kinds of stories I like to read without the entire focus being on their sordid love-lives. I just want to read about the hero who slayed a dragon to rescue his prince instead of his princess, lol.

Glowbat (Aloe)

lol im in a similar position where i'd rather see the hero befriend the dragon

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I have plenty of that in my comics, too!

There’s some nice dragons and some very-not-nice ones. XD

Glowbat (Aloe)

(im insufferable in d&d i was a bard who tried to be friends with everything)

eryl is on my lisssst <3

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

This is why I love bards

Glowbat (Aloe)

hehe

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I'm always happy when people mark their stuff as LGBTQ+ if characters are present tbh Y_Y

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Also agreed with everything said above

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

All right, now Imma definitely have to add the LGBTQ+ labels to my comics next time I do website maintenance.

Glowbat (Aloe)

yay!

Nutty (Court of Roses)

Aw ye aw ye

Join the brigade

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yiss

I feel a bit bad bc I rarely read sth that's not clearly marked as LGBTQ+ or where I know the authors are part of the community whoops

But it's mostly the fact that I consumed hetero-focused media my whole life and now I can...choose.....

the dream

Glowbat (Aloe)

heck yes

im way more drawn to stories that are marked lgbtq+

keii4ii

Don't feel bad, because seriously, even if you exclusively read LGBTQ+ marked stories? There ain't enough time in this life to read every good story that fits that bill.

There are too many good stories out there and we do need to choose.

Glowbat (Aloe)

its just nicer because then i can enjoy the story without having to worry that in the middle of it im going to get a rude wake up call from an off colour joke or somethin at my expense

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah that's true

keii4ii

Sometimes we miss out on stuff that we may have fallen in love with, but that's the name of the game, the game of not having enough time

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Webcomics feel a lot safer than other media in that regard atm

Jupp especially if you're also working on your own stories

Glowbat (Aloe)

it sucks thinking theres a bunch of stories out there that im sure id love if only i had the time or mental fortitude to sift through a bunch of others.

keii4ii

(OTL that reminds me... there is one instance of trope use in an early chapter of HoK that falls into that 'off color joke' category. I don't have any excuses for it, just 'I just thoughtlessly parroted a trope that I saw elsewhere.' I regret it and hope to figure out an elegant way to rewrite that one scene.)

Glowbat (Aloe)

i dont have the energy to be burned so often by stories that seem good and then hit me with random transphobic bs or using slurs as jokes

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yeah, as someone who grew up in a time when no one positively portrayed queer folks in mainstream stories (and there was no internet and living out in the boonies made it impossible to discover underground cultures) I love that now I can seek out tonnes of LGBTQ stories and drown myself in the gay every day.

Glowbat (Aloe)

yesss

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

jupp ;;

Glowbat (Aloe)

man if i could give ten year old me printed copy of paranatural and turn to the pages with rj's identity being explained? that kid would have grown up way happier

living in small towns aint great for queer peeps

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Nope it’s not. I was badly repressed until honestly only 3 years ago when I suddenly asked myself why I loved reading about and writing so many gay characters. And then suddenly my whole life made sense.

Glowbat (Aloe)

im so happy for you<3

Glowbat (Aloe)

its a heck of a thing thinking back on things and realizing why you do certain things

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Honestly there were giant clues from when I was still a little kid and I can’t believe it took me so long. XD But I’m digressing from the comic talk, lol.

Glowbat (Aloe)

haha i understand what you mean

i think its why its so important for comics to be inclusive

spare some poor kids the heart ache and confusion

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yes! The internet has created such a boom for indie comics and that huge variety of voices has been so so important.

Glowbat (Aloe)

as much as comics are an art, they're extremely powerful as a vehicle for teaching and generally conveying ideas

FeatherNotes

Can i just say how happy i am that y'all are making LGBTQ+ comics that aren't just romance tho? I'm pretty indifferent and on the ace spectrum for sure, so its so refreshing that we can have a queer cast just being cool and not hurt by identities. I wish i had that as a kid

Also no shade on romance but there's def a lot and lgbtq+ isn't just for that genre

So yes yall are 'gay enough' lol

Glowbat (Aloe)

i agree! queer peeps shouldn't be squared off in romance, which unfortunately i think is a result of people's gross misconceptions

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Admittedly, I use my comics as a vehicle to work through my own issues, so there are scenes planned where the characters have to deal with transphobia or homophobia. But I will always counterbalance that with other scenes that validate the characters’ identities.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Hmhm my story also deals with transphobia and dysphoria bc I'm working through own issues. I don't think that's a bad thing though

generally I think it's pretty ok if the story is not a constant misery train

(even those can be written well, but they are usually not my cup of tea)

Glowbat (Aloe)

i think its perfectly acceptable to use comics as a vehicle for that lee

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeahh tbh

MJ Massey

there's no wrong reason to make comics/create a thing

Glowbat (Aloe)

youre a queer creator and you're working with what you know so why not

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I know focusing on queer suffering has been criticised a lot but I feel there's more nuance to it. Especially if it's a LGBTQ+ person writing about it

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yeah. I’m a miserable emo and I write miserable emo stories, but I try to inject some hope into it, because I think that the majority of humans are good and/or want to be good.

Glowbat (Aloe)

theres this comic called dropout that does a wonderful job exploring the grittier truths of being queer

its a fairly short read but its super good

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Hmmm, I may look that up

Glowbat (Aloe)

i can dm you the link! no pressure to read it tho

twothirty

gosh, i just want to chime in because i really relate to earlier comments around labelling comics. I'm bi, but i don't wear it on my sleeve, and my own comic has like...1 straight character. I feel like there is an expectation for comics labelled as lgbtq+ and i don't want to disappoint people who are really looking for that content to be directly addressed.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Tbh I feel many people are just happy, if there's queer characters doing cool stuff (at least that's how it's for me).

Glowbat (Aloe)

i label my own comic as lgbtq+ and the plot hardly hinges on that being the central theme

just a bunch a gay scientists and robots in space

...i swear its way more interesting that that lol

man i wish i could get more of my comic out faster so i didnt have to worry about spoiling basic things geeze

twothirty

haha im into it! Ahh, well probably a big part of it is my own insecurities, but what are webcomics for if not... for figuring out your own crap (edited)

keii4ii

I feel that X'D

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

juppp...I get the anxiety tho

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Mess of anxiety solidarity.

Glowbat (Aloe)

oof yeah

also hey while we're at it with the queer biz in here:

aro/ace/bi peeps are all gay enough full stop

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

YES

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

jupp

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

As a demi-bi dude I fully endorse that all labels are valid.

And that gatekeeping sucks and helps no one

Glowbat (Aloe)

yeah anyone who makes you feel like you dont belong under the lgbtq+ umbrella isnt doin right by you

and your comics should be allowed to be considered as queer as you want them to be

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Also all gender identities are valid and don’t hinge on having a physical transition. You’re valid as trans whether you change your body or not.

Glowbat (Aloe)

^^^

YES

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

YESS

Glowbat (Aloe)

all our experiences are valid and the comics we make because of those experience are beautiful

Deo101

Oh man I missed a huge convo, but I love y'all and it's wonderful seeing so many kinds of comics out there and seeing people make their own content

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Yo, nothing "gross" about romance, and the reason people flock to it is because romance with same-gender couples and/or trans people has been treated as "deviant disorder that needs to be cured and cleaned up, or at least kept far away from polite society" for so long (and still is, in many places)

All queer stories are valid, queer characters don't need to be in a romantic storyline to count, but please let's discuss that without echoing homophobic rhetoric about queer romance being "gross", yeah?(edited)

MJ Massey

I don't think it was meant gross as in queer romance itself being gross, but more in the finding a general distaste for romance tropes and romance as a genre

but I agree, that we should be careful about implying those sorts of things with our work

keii4ii

Romance as a genre is valid too; the consensus was just that there's a lot of it, and other genres are valid too. That every genre is valid

MJ Massey

true, but people might just feel strong distaste for certain genres from a personal point of preference

it's part of what makes the fabric of human existence so fascinating, we all have different opinions, likes, dislikes, viewpoints...

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

tbh I love romance stories but the thing that disheartens me is that the queer stories people take most serious are romances

keii4ii

The pigeonholing

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Can you elaborate on that Keiiii?

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Those are the stories that get repressed and erased the most, is the thing, so it takes more effort to get them produced and shared, and that makes people extra-happy

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I don’t think anyone said romance stories were gross?

Just that it’s not necessarily our jam.

keii4ii

Oh, I meant that's what people are doing when people start exclusively associating a very diverse experience/ group of people with ONE thing, to a point where the people in that group are not allowed to be anything other than That One Thing

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I was reacting to "queer peeps shouldn't be squared off in romance, which unfortunately i think is a result of people's gross misconceptions"

keii4ii

and it's a really unfair, inaccurate restriction

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Ahhhh

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

OH okay, thank you for elaborating, Keiiii. I couldn't really associate anything with the term at first!

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Misconceptions are the reason queer people have been excluded from most romance for so long

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I think in that case it was more about people's misconception of queer identities being inherintly sexual and/or romantic though?

and not about queer romance being gross

DanitheCarutor

Huh, I thought 'gross' in that context was more akin to 'outlandish' or 'exaggerated', but I could be misunderstanding.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I think it means more that a lot of people fetishise queer relationships when there’s only representation in romance.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Associating "queer people being sexual and/or romantic" with "gross" is still hella dicey

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

the misconception is what's gross, not the queer people or their romance?

Glowbat (Aloe)

re: gross misconceptions :Oh! i think i said that Erin- i don't think i did a great job of explaining my thoughts on that. on sites like tapas and webtoons its fairly common for gay couples to be exploited for an audience thats less interested in representation than fetishization(edited)

MJ Massey

yes I think there was some lamenting that it could be difficult to show queer characters without an element of romance to make their identities apparent?

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I don’t think they meant gross as in disgusting but gross as in ‘far off the mark’

MJ Massey

because some people wanted to have queer characters but not focus on a romantic plot

@Glowbat (Aloe) I know what you are talking about I think

Deo101

Yeah, though I'd like to add on as someone who is writing LGBT romance, I get lumped in with fetishization content a lot and that is very frustrating for me, too

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

And it does take a lot of digging to find respectful representation in romance instead of stories made by and for straight people that use bad stereotypes to fetishise queer relationships.

Not that all romance by and for straight people does this.

But it’s a problem in the genre

Deo101

I work very hard to portray healthy loving relationships and people lump me in to their hatred of romance in general or categorize my work as bl or discount it for having that. It gets fetishized or dismissed an awful lot and that's very frustrating for me to see happening

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

If you want to talk specifically about something you feel is stereotypical or fetishizing, I wouldn't object to that, it's the broad swipes at all romance that become a problem

Glowbat (Aloe)

agreed

queer romance is very important to represent

i dont think anyone here would imply otherwise

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

And, hey, sometimes queer writers/readers also enjoy a romance that's unrealistic or trashy or silly or melodramatic, I don't want to dismiss "all romance that wouldn't represent a healthy and respectful relationship IRL" either

Glowbat (Aloe)

very true

Deo101

Yeah, not what I was trying to say.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Idk if anyone was saying that tbh

Glowbat (Aloe)

i think our initial conversation though boiled down to that we were happy to see stories with queer people being allowed to just be people doing things that didnt focus on romance

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I'm personally very glad that we are getting a wider variety of queer romance now

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

What we were discussing earlier is more that it’s important to portray queer protagonists in all kinds of genres, instead of only romance. Which doesn’t mean romance isn’t also a valid genre.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Sure, and part of my discomfort is that queer characters have already been "allowed" to do non-romantic things in mainstream media for a long time -- it's being "allowed" to have an explicit romance that's new and different

keii4ii

^ I don't know about that. It probably depends on where you are, both IRL and part of the internet?

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I never saw a queer character that wasn’t either tragic, a deviant, or the butt of a joke in media until the late ‘O0s(edited)

MJ Massey

both views are valid--it's good to both want explicit queer romance and to also just want to see queer people doing a wide range of things

DanitheCarutor

@Glowbat (Aloe) Yeah, to parrot what you said. I just chalked the convo up to seeing queer characters expand into different genres, and being happy that queer fiction is starting to be known for more than just romance.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

There was no positive representation in any genre in the media I had access to for most of my life(edited)

Deo101

It helps with the normalization of stories like that, but I also think it makes homophobes be "more comfortable" with gay stories sometimes in a way that bothers me

I have had someone say that my story is the only bl they can stand so I'm sensitive about this subject though

Cause there's a lot to unpack there

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

The "if there has to be a queer romance, at least make it awful and tragic" trope was absolutely true in my area too

yikes, I can see being sensitive about that

Deo101

Like me writing something that primarily isn't romance and just has a romance b plot is making homophobes and fetishizing people read my work and that's frustrating for me in a way I can't articulate. I'm very happy within the LGBT+ community to have these works be made but among the straight people I know it's uncomfortable when they start saying things like "oh yay finally some gay stuff that isn't romance" kind of thing

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah that makes sense

Deo101

From other gay people I get it, it makes sense and I'm the same way! Especially with the oversaturation of bl

DanitheCarutor

@Deo101 Gah I got a comment like that before, it was a weird situation because not only was it unnecessary but... TGtaHR isn't even a romance...

Thinking about it, that's actually kinda worrying.

Deo101

But it's important to remember that the LGBT+ community is a bubble and though it's safe to explore all sorts of stories here, it's not safe outside of our bubble

Or, not necessarily safe

Like a homophobe reading a gay story with an unhealthy dynamic could just bolster their bad opinions about gay people even if it's exploring it in a healthy way

I have a hard time explaining what I'm thinking and I really hope this all makes sense

keii4ii

I get you

Glowbat (Aloe)

(i get what youre saying deo <3 )

Deo101

And its not something we can really change but I think it's important to remember with regards to society at large and how our stories are percieved outside the community

Phew lol

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I get what you're saying, although in that case, the homophobe was probably going to think that no matter what, and if it wasn't the story they'd find some other "evidence"

Deo101

Yeah absolutely

And I think it's important to remember that when talking about exploring stories that have unhealthy Dynamics and things other than romance and whatnot. I don't want those things to become safe for cishets to exploit basically

Like "oh great now I don't need to write them kissing so I can access BOTH the LGBT and everyone else!"

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Ah, you mean like "the author says they're gay, so that counts as representation and LGBT people should buy this, even though there's never anything explicitly gay in the story"

right?

Deo101

Yeah

Deo101

Which again within the community I get and it's important to explore things like that for sure

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I think the important difference is, writers within the community are going to do something to indicate the queer identity, even when it's not "having an on-screen romance"

And that's something that, say, your average JKR doesn't bother doing

Deo101

Again I have a hard time explaining myself and I might be tripping over my words a bit here

Yeah that's true as well

I trust LGBT people to be navigating stories with an inherent nuance

For the most part

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

That, or (I think people were talking about this upthread) we don't advertise a story as "look at all this representation!" while the characters' identities haven't come up in the comic yet

Deo101

Yeah I know I didn't say my story was LGBT til I had the married couple kiss cause I was worried people would think I was gaybaiting

I know I'm not but it feels wrong to me like I'm trying to rally up readers kinda thing...

But also if you know you're planning to do it I feel like you can say it'll be there

I just have anxiety LOL

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

No, I get you. Even if it's definitely going to happen in the future of the comic, it'll disappoint readers if you rally them up for something that isn't there yet

That would happen with anything, not just queer identities

Deo101

Yeah I also don't tag my pages or whatever for disability if a character isn't disabled on the page

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Like if it was "read my comic for cool space battles!" when you had only posted the 5 pages of setup with characters having a chill talk in a field

sssfrs

I think what bothers me about lbgtq focused romance stories is that they’re often centered on how ~scandalous~ the relationship is and how the characters have to overcome personal biases or homophobia/transphobia as the central struggle

Deo101

I don't want the wrong audience. I mean I also could probably slap bl on my cover and I feel like I'd get a lot more readers but they're not the readers I want

sssfrs

Or at least I dont enjoy reading stories like that

Deo101

Yeah that frustrates me too, personally

But some people like seeing that overcoming idk

sssfrs

My comic has at least 2 visible prominent gay relationships but its not about romance at all

I guess thats personal preference(edited)

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I think a lot of the time you also know what intentions the person behind telling a story like that has? I have a straight aquaintaince writing BL and it's totally clear that she thinks the whole ordeal is kinda cute and endearing when it's pretty...harsh for actual queer people

Deo101

Mines got 5 and it is about romance cause I absolutely love romance and I love love, but I am overly frustrated with romance as a genre. Which is why I write my own

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I think that goes back to the "talk about a specific trope that bothers you, don't treat it like the whole genre" thing I was saying

Deo101

Yeah I think there's a lot of nuance to it that cishet people largely don't have

sssfrs

I feel like it makes the romance into a statement about how society is bad and its not interesting or groundbreaking to represent that bigotry in your media without adding something new

Deo101

I'm frustrated with the often unhealthy Dynamics and the frequency with which homophobia and transphobia are shown.

I live in a homophobic household I don't want it in my romance cause it hurts to see

But, I don't think it's bad to tackle those issues it's just hard for me personally

sssfrs

I like pairing up side characters but only 2 pairs are going to have an Arc. so far....

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I...feel for many cishet authors it's also a good excuse to not have the characters get together right away without actually thinking about why they would not for other reasons (like personality based). So there's a lot of "I'm not gay!!!" type of thing

Also totally understandable Deo :C

Deo101

Yeah absolutely.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

It’s also valid, as a queer author, though, to show characters that do have to overcome their ‘gay panic’ when they first realise they’re gay. It’s something a lot of us have gone through, but it’s important to show the comfort you finally feel in yourself when you come out the other end if it.

sssfrs

Why should fiction include all the shitty parts of real life

Deo101

I think straight people see LGBT authors tackle these issues and go "oh so I can too!!!"

And yeah this is why I'm largely drawn to sci-fi and fantasy, I get to entirely remove all the things that hurt me about reality. Dude can just use a cane and everyone is like dope

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Because sometimes fiction helps us process all the shitty parts of real life. Both happy stories that take away shit and gritty stories that acknowledge shit are valid and important

Deo101

Ppl can just be trans and it's fine

I agree they're all important

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

(I think I'm just super bitter bc here I've seen cis and straight women get awards for their queer romance stories which just hmm)

Deo101

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I agree it's a super nuanced topic

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

...I feel like you've also gotta make some allowance for bad writing. Like, maybe someone's not getting a lot of nuance in their story because their skills aren't sharp enough to handle it yet.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Agreed, Erin!

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

And one of the ways they'll get good enough to write better stories is by working out issues through writing the worse stories.

sssfrs

My main character is a butch lesbian gnc completely androgynous person and no one is ever going to say anything nasty to her about it

Deo101

I feel you sssfrs lol(edited)

Deo101

I thirst for gentle, nice LGBT stories. I just crave them

Nutty (Court of Roses)

I feel that. As I build Prismal and decided to include lgbt folks in it, my first thought about it was "would there be any reason for them to be hated in this society? No? Then why would I include that theme?"

Deo101

And yes it's important to delve into the harsher realities and I think it's good to use fiction to explore and work through those themes, definitely, but personally no thx

sssfrs

I like where ppl are just all expected to be pan or bisexual by default

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

heh, I literally have 2 comics and one of them is "real world where characters struggle with realistic prejudices" while the other is "fantasy world with 0% homophobia/transphobia."

Something for everyone!

sssfrs

Nice

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I’m too goddamn miserable to write such nice stories, lol. But writing gritty stories where my characters go through hell helps me process the stuff I go through in my life. But I love reading those nice stories where we can forget racism and queerphobia exist.(edited)

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

hehe...I've decided to go into some queerphobia in my next comic only bc I want to...explore historical queer spaces and the kind of space does not make sense in a world that's 100% accepting

Deo101

Yeah it's just all about that nuance babeyy

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeahhh

Deo101

I think that's also why we see so much more LGBT content of all kinds in indie media

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Absolutely

Less gatekeeping, less opportunity for homophobes to shut it down

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

No big boss complaining it’s not ‘marketable’ to be inclusive

Deo101

And I worry that mainstream stuff will be like "ohoho, so that means I can do it too" *stumbles and sets gay people back 10 years in the eyes of the general public *

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

YEEEEEEAH there’s that

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I think the mainstream is going slow enough that that's far from my biggest worry

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

But change never happens smoothly

Sometimes it goes up and down before society evolves into a better mindset

Deo101

Well yeah ofc, but even on a smaller scale of bad people reading good works it is kinda happening I feel like

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

So there’s gonna be periods of shit before being queer is faithfully represented in the mainstream

Deo101

Yeah for sure

It helps normalize things but it also can do it in an unhealthy way and it's frustrating

As in people going "yes let's include gay romance *it's just bl tropes *"

And things like that

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I think the best way to counter that is by producing & supporting more stories of all kinds -- the more complex and multifaceted a view people get, the better

Deo101

Yeah

From people who are handling those stories well, too ^^^

Which is subjective of course I know that

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Also, something nobody's mentioned that I think should come up...a lot of times you don't know who's straight/cis and who's not. Like, if it's Famous Mainstream Author JKR, you can be pretty sure, but with small-scale indie creators, how much can you tell the difference between "straight/cis artist who thinks BL tropes are how all real gay relationships work" versus "gay/bi/trans/etc artist who understands IRL fine, but it's fun and self-indulgent for them to write those tropes"?

Especially since the artist could be actively in the closet. Or could still be on their own journey of self-discovery and not know they aren't straight and/or cis yet. All the more so since indie creators are more likely to be younger than well-established mainstream standards.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I don’t know about you guys, but it’s always BLATANTLY obvious to me by how they’re writing.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

How did you confirm it? Did you ask them?

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Call it intuition

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I don't think it's always confirmable tho :C

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Granted, sometimes a person writes with enough nuance that I can tell they're queer, but how do you tell a straight writer from an awkward/inexperienced/clunky queer writer?

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I know a lot of authors thinking they were cishet and later on realizing they were not

and some of them wrote a lot of "yikes"

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

There’s writing patterns and use of tropes that signal whether the person is actually respectful if the queer community or not

Deo101

Also just cause you're working through things doesn't mean it's a healthy exploration that is good for the community at large

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Even if they’re queer and self-indulging, there’s a lot of tells both in the comics and in their commentary

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

tbh I think some tropes are fair to criticise no matter if the author is queer or not but there are also queer authors writing disrespectful tropes

it's not sth that I see a lot, but I've seen it

Deo101

^ yeah this

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

All questions of their writing aside, there are definitely queer people who don't respect the community IRL, either...

Deo101

Like it's not good to write glorifying rape fic of pedophilia no matter who you are or how it's helping you work through things. I mean you can write it but then to share it is something else entirely

Not saying those are common things but they're pretty very much "bad" things

And actually glorifying rape is something I do see much more than I would have expected

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

And that’s problematic, too. When you’re part of a community but not respectful of it, that’s just as bad as a straight person being homophobic. Sometimes the worst homophobia cones from within the community, but that doesn’t make it okay or healthy.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

If you share a dark story behind accurate warnings and labels, then it can reach other people who are working through something by reading it, and be avoided by people who don't.

Deo101

Yeah there's a lot of lateral agression within the community

Okay but glorification of it isn't a healthy way to work through those things it's not a dark story

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I'm not saying homophobia from within the community is okay or healthy, I'm just saying it doesn't have to indicate that the person is straight/cis.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I have a lot of dark themes in my comics. There is rape, but it is never shown on panel and never never glorified. I think it’s a subject that’s important to talk about, but I find it extremely disturbing how much it’s romanticised in fiction.

Deo101

^^^

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah...

DanitheCarutor

Huh, this convo reminds me of an article a friend sent me from someone's Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/posts/25994657 It talks about creation policing, and problematic fiction. You all proooobably won't agree with it given the direction of discussion (which all points of view are totally valid), but this whole subject is super interesting.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

All right, true, you can’t always know if an author is queer or not. I should have been more specific in whether an author has a healthy view of the LGBTQ community or not.

Deo101

So you might not be able to tell if someone is gay by their writing, but there are certain trends that gay people do not generally fall into that MOSTLY indicate someone is straight, though there's no way to know for sure.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

THAT is always obvious to me.

Deo101

And like def there are bi women who fetishize gay men, and there is transphobia and biohobia and everything within the community

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

If they’re being homophobic or just don’t ‘understand’ the queer community, I mean

Deo101

Etc etc, so even if you can't tell whether a harmful representation is written by someone who is LGBT it's a harmful representation regardless

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

^^^^This

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Yeah. I'm always very hesistant on how to address things like this

Deo101

Me too esp since I have such a hard time saying what I mean

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I'm not saying it's impossible to write harmful representation, but "this is harmful!" gets used as a cudgel against any representation, so often that I'm wary of talking about it as a vaguely-defined blanket category.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

It’s hard to articulate things clearly when in fast-paced chats like this

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah, haha

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

At least it's good for leveling people up, huh?

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

eifhiuef pfft

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Lol. ‘You levelled up talking about homophobia!’

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

(I feel we're all respectful and try to explain ourselves and give others the chance to do so too)

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

At least it's good for something??

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

(so that's good haha)

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yes. Talks like this are super important to help see each others views on tricky subjects

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Yeah, I feel like we're making good-faith attempts to understand each other, which...is not something you always get in internet discussions

To put it very very mildly

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

We all have our own stories and unique perspectives, and that’s important to share both in the fiction we write and in discussions with each other

DanitheCarutor

@Phin (Heirs of the Veil) The subject is pretty sticky. On one hand artists should be allowed to create whatever they like, on the other if that work can perpetuate harm for a certain community should it be allowed? There is a lot of this going around right now where people want sanitization in media, and what works of art are and are not allowed to exist. Not saying it's bad, but it is fascinating. I'm not fully getting into the convo because I'm honestly super neutral.

kayotics

I’m definitely watching the convo play out, it’s interesting to see a chat like this develop

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

yeah I'm taking notes this is not my area of expertise, and it's all good stuff to keep in mind

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I'm okay discussing & criticizing specific examples (which is probably why I keep bringing up Dumbledore...), but I don't like being critical of broad categories, because they can be so ambiguous & easily misused.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

@DanitheCarutor I think it is very hard to differentiate between people who want difficult subjects to be explored (which is valid) and people who don't want to be called out for certain kinks for example and a lot of the times stuff like "purity policing" gets used to shut legit criticism up. On the other hand there are a lot of examples of callout culture gone wild and honestly ??? Idk anymore.

Deo101

Its very frustrating

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

But I'm also at a point where I'm getting super tired of constant discourse so

Deo101

Yeah I've literally had to block words like "ace" cause it's just so often discourse from either side and I'm just so tired of it

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Plus there’s always going to be stories that help one person work through things but that are very toxic and upsetting to someone else. Just like there’s people who are toxic to one person and important to someone else.(edited)

Deo101

I've also blocked LGBT and "feminism" kinda things

I JUST see cats and memes now thank you

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Lee: absolutely, which is why accurate labels are important

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Eyyyy, it's my turn!

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yes

kayotics

I think it’s important to curate your online experience, and sometimes NOT curating your experience leads to purity policing

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

HMM

kayotics

But yes tagging is really important!!!

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I think there is the creation of a lot of anxiety in what and what you can't tell in stories

Deo101

Tags are super important but also when someone doesn't think or realize they're doing something harmful they might not tag it

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Warning labels all around are always a good idea

Deo101

Like if someone is being a homophobe just cause etheyre homophobic they're not gonna tag that

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

True

Deo101

Why tag it's glorifying abuse if they think it's hot or reality and don't realize that's bad

Etc etc

kayotics

There’s definitely a lot of creator anxiety lately, I’ve had a lot of friends come to me with anxieties about not wanting to start a project they love because they’re afraid of who might attack them online

Deo101

^^^ I've been scared about this

kayotics

Me too, honestly

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Same honestly

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

There’s always the issue if ‘should harmful ideas be given a platform’ vs ‘stifling voices you just don’t want to hear’ it’s a fine line.

Deo101

I once got all in a tizzy cause I was like "oh my god my planet of women is asking a man for help"

Yeah cause some free speech silences other's

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Same

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

And sometimes you get people thinking "if I label this with a warning that it contains Bad Content, the internet police will come after me," so they don't use warnings for that reason, and then it's just bad times all around

Deo101

Yeah.

And also there are things no one thinks to warn about, like some very specific triggers

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah...

Deo101

Its just all around a very difficult to navigate space

DanitheCarutor

@Phin (Heirs of the Veil) Right? People do that with anything, if it's not the "purity police" excuse it's "my style", or "I'm friends with -insert minority here-!" I don't bother with the arguments anymore since I've been pushed into them enough, I'm more into seeing opinion on general art policing, or what is and isn't allowed to exist in art. Sorry, I'm being slow at typing again.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Heck, if we're talking about actual psychological triggers, most of them are going to be super-specific

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I have a trigger for fungal growth on bodies now bc I have 3 people who either have probs with plants growiing on bodies OR funghi lol

Deo101

Ya I have a "someone watching someone else sleep" trigger which people use a surprising amount

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

...wait, Phin, now you have a trigger, or now you use a warning for it?

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

@DanitheCarutor srsly don't worry about it, haha. It's a nuanced topic and I think generalizing is pretty bad when it comes to what you can and can't portray

I use a warning for it, sorry Erin, wasn't clear

I had multiple people approach me so I warn in update posts and should probs also do it on the website

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

no worries, just wanted to be sure

kayotics

I do have an extreme phobia of needles and you’d be surprised how many news sites use active needle shots for vaccination stories

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

GOD I KNOW

I am not afraid of them but like once they are near skin

I don't wanna see...these shots

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I have a deathly phobia of vomiting and there are NEVER warning labels for it.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah I think most people don't regard it and sometimes it's hard to get everything...

a friend of mine, Eli, creates a very gory comic and they put all their warnings on their update post images

and I kinda wanna try to be similarly mindful?

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

(I’m okay if it’s in a comic and off-panel or the gross part is not shown but the sound and sight are crippling for me and shows and movies just SHOW it all the time)

kayotics

That’s true. Not a vomit fan.

DanitheCarutor

Ah I've thought about using page by page TWs, and I tried it out with one page, but with the amount of triggering thing in my comic I decided on a general warning. (since almost every page would get a warning) A few of my readers also said they preferred not to see them due to possible spoilers.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Hmm...I have a list of possible triggers in my about section

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I probably should start doing that bc my comics get very bloody

kayotics

I know I’ll have a scene eventually that I’ll want to have a warning on, but I’m not sure how to warn for it without spoiling?

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I installed a spoilertext plugin on one of my comics for that! Now I can put specific warnings at the front of a storyline, and readers who don't have triggers & don't want spoilers can leave them hidden.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

OHH that's a cool idea

DanitheCarutor

Yeah, mine is like a general pop-up that you have to click on to proceed to the comic.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I’m going to have to look at that plugin. Potential spoilers are the only reason I don’t have really detailed warnings on my comics

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Here's the one I use: https://wordpress.org/plugins/inline-spoilers/

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Yeah I'll look into it too. It seems super useful.

Heck thanks Erin!

DanitheCarutor

I don't know how you could make a warning without spoilers, @kayotics! I mean, you might have to if you want to do a page specific one.(edited)

Sorry, my cat sent the message for me.

kayotics

I was thinking a page specific one for the upcoming scene.

So I’m glad that doesn’t seem weird

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I'd say super-general warnings are mostly not spoilers. A movie will say "contains graphic violence", and that doesn't tell you who's being violent, or why, or how it's resolved.

DanitheCarutor

^^^

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah, I think that's not a spoiler, especially if the comic was already violent

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yeah. I have warnings for things like ‘graphic violence, blood and gore, nudity, etc. But some chapters or pages probably warrant more detailed TWs.

Deo101

Yeah I'm gonna put in my a/n for a few updates before like "hey there are some spooky scenes comin' up!'

kayotics

I wouldn’t say my comic is already violent, so it’s more applicable for this one scene

Deo101

And yeah things like "watching someone sleep" is gonna be at least somewhat of a spoiler...

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

hmhm

DanitheCarutor

@kayotics I think it really just depends on the person too. Some readers like page by page TWs, and don't see them as spoilers, others are the opposite. Your readers might appreciate a warning more than mine since your comic isn't overall super graphic.(edited)

Gah I can not type today!

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I put "this will get bloody" before some of the vampire storylines, not spoiler-cut -- because it's not a given, but shouldn't exactly be a surprise, either.

Deo101

I also do not mind spoilers whatsoever and I WILL spoil to anyone who asks as I've said many times, but I know not everyone is like me and spoilers are a big deal to many people

"i don't mind spoilers" i love them and they make me enjoy things more for many reasons

DanitheCarutor

Ah same! I'd love to just spill everything!

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

(Deo high five bc same)

Deo101

My people

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

tbh spoilers got me interested in many comics and I actively spoil myself

like getting into new comics and reading the updates before jumping to the beginning haha

kayotics

I’m very much the opposite

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I don't want to spoil anything, I want to keep people guessing! But sometimes you gotta.

Deo101

Yes. I get incredibly stressed about whether or not things will work out and spoilers relieve that. Even if it doesn't work out like at least I know

I get so so sooo stressed about it

kayotics

Whenever people tell me spoilers I actively like content less

DanitheCarutor

I don't mind them myself. My mom absolutely hates them, and used to make me spoil every movie if I saw it before her, so I'm pretty alright with it.

Deo101

Yeah ik many people are that way

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah I also think that's fair

DanitheCarutor

Also spoilers don't affect me either since it's not the content that means anything, but how it's used. Imo

kayotics

Usually for me it’s like. “Ok you spoiled a major character death/reveal, that’s not fun for me anymore”

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

OH yeah Kay! Tbh

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

If there's a big twist, I want to be unspoiled the first time I watch/read/etc the thing. If it's handled well, I can always rewatch it again with the knowledge.

kayotics

Because then I don’t get to experience that anymore

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

that's sth that can also ruin a story for me

kinda didn't get into the current season of CritRoll bc of such a spoiler

with comics it's kinda like...I see them on twitter, read along a few updates and then jump to the beginning so there I don't mind spoilers at all

it's more scoping out if the story's for me

Deo101

Oh man I sometimes only get into things because of spoilers LOL I know I'm weird with this but genuinely I love spoilers so much they make me comfortable with what I'm watching. I love rewatching things cause I know how it goes down and I'm not stressed by it

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I sometimes have troubles to deal with...raw emotions towards media so spoilers help me with that too

like preparing myself for it to hurt

(not always tho)

Deo101

Right yeah for sure

Even if I know it won't work out I KNOW and I don't put energy into getting my hopes up

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I hate spoilers, personally. I love going into stories completely blind or with just the bare-bones ‘genre, overall theme’ because I LOVE being shocked and surprised and have plot-twists thrown at me, so that’s what I do with my own comics(edited)

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah that's also fair. Right now my brain's not in the mood for that so I gotta play it save hehe

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I still don't like saying "here's what the Beings are" in ads or sales pitches for BICP, even though the page where it was revealed is several years old by now

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

But everyone likes different things so there’s nothing wrong with giving spoilers for your own stories if people want them(edited)

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah it depends honestly and that's pretty okay.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Everyone’s different and everyone’s valid

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I don't spoil my own story, except with artworks and mostly it's without context or cryptic enough that it's not...a real spoiler

yeah!

in that regard, it's just a huge matter of taste

twothirty

i also jump into webcomics, read them backgrounds for a bit then realized im actually into it and read it properly haha

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

hahaha yes

If I get invested without context I know it's good lol

Deo101

I don't spoil on public platforms cause I know people don't wanna necessarily see that (unless it's in an ama but I try to avoid spoilers still) but in private? I'll spill whatever tf u want like

I have and I will again!!!! Lmao

I know no one is gonna write it like me and also it's p linear so the only spoilers people really ask are Character things not plot things, anyways

So I'm not worried about theft im not doing anything super wild or original lol

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

all my favorite panels I've done are all the most spoilery ones, so... whether I share them or not, I lose

Deo101

Aw man

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

SAME

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

nooo

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

but it makes sense! I put all my effort into those moments where the story twists and turns

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Some of my fave panels or pages are when big reveals or plot twists happened

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

and it shows

so meh, I'll live

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

So I can’t share them to people who haven’t read my comic yet XD

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

luckily they don't make a ton of sense out of context, but... as soon as people start reading they might be like OHHH I know what's coming now

but it got them reading so shrug

I guess all mileage varies

Deo101

I feel like even the way I talk about my comic spoils it LMAO whoops

I'm made out of spoilers I can t hold them all in very clumsy

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

haha

I feel the same a lot

(But I also just wanna scream 24/7 about my stories whoopsie)

Deo101

I once had readers asking me to sum up a chapter caus ethey were confused and I just waited til someone else did it cause I was worried I'd spoil Something in trying to sun it up

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Linear stories are good too, though! Just reading a satisfying, well-written story is great; there doesn’t really NEED to be twist and turns for it to be food.

Deo101

Who doesn't wanna scream all the time and their stories hahahahha

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

GOOD

NOT FOOD

GAH

Deo101

Millennium is yummy yummy yum

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

...for the in-universe version of spoilers, I just had a moment of "hang on, this scene could've been way more dramatic if this one character hadn't already been given a certain reveal last chapter"

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

good food, agreed

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Normally I get away with not having a long buffer prepped ahead of time, but for once I wish I could still change this

Nutty (Court of Roses)

i spoil a lot about my characters more than i do the plot lol

i mean except their backstories sometimes

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Oh :C sometimes it's like this, Erin. Reasons buffers are good, but when do you have the time....

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I've tried putting this one on hiatus to prep a buffer, but it turns out I need the deadlines and the regular feedback to push me through making the pages...

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

oh I see. Understandable though...the only time I create real buffer is when I finish a book for print and have a deadline there.

(I wanna try to actually...get better though, since I wanna start a second comic project)

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I mean, sometimes if there's a process that works for you, you gotta just go with it and not waste energy fighting it. Even if it's not the Best or Most Professional way.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah that's true. It's just frustrating when you compare the work you get done in these phases vs. every other time.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Clearly the solution is to split it up into smaller books, so you have more print deadlines!

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

haha, that might be!

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I need buffers or I get super stressed. Unfortunately I also find them difficult to keep up.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Buffers are very hard to keep up. I'm running out of mine next week, whoops

But I've already started working on new pages

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I have...a half-finished, past-deadline page open in another window right now, lol

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I haven’t been able to draw for about a month, so one comic’s buffer is getting low and the other’s going to either miss this week or be late.

And I’m stressing about it. -_-

sssfrs

I’m so excited for my story to progress. I’m tempted to talk about it but when I am I think that nothing I say casually will be as impactful as just letting the story actually play out

Desnik

I deal with lack of engagement by throwing my ideas (or myself) at people. I learned that keeping secret twists as spoilers was inhibiting my growth as a writer, so instead I talk through my plots with my writing group and I often walk away with much better ideas to write

We're a kidlit/MG/YA group and I'm writing in a similar fashion, so we usually don't have to warn each other about anything we're writing, which is its own kind of freedom

if I can get the content to be good enough, and land in front of someone who'll help me take it further, then the engagement will follow

keii4ii

(This the right place?)

Deo101

Speaking of a lack of engagement, i feel like my engagement rates are incredibly low. I get a good bit, i get comments on every page and im very happy with that, but it's odd that i dont get more given my amount of readers and I wonder if some comics just aren't the kind of story people feel a need to say anything about, or what?

I think so?

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

My engagement rates are... almost nonexistent.

keii4ii

I TOTALLY GET THAT DOUBT

When my anxiety is bad, it gets... really bad. "Maybe my story isn't worth commenting/ there is nothing to talk about it." I know that's just anxiety, so I try my best to not listen to that voice.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Although I think my audience is just not there? My page-views are pretty low, too, so maybe I just don’t have enough readers to comment (outside of you awesome SF perps)

PEEPS NOT PERPS

MY GOD THIS PHONE

keii4ii

Yeah, my views are fairly low too, considering the sub count I have on platforms

Come on, phone. We're not criminals. (Probably. )

Deo101

Yeah, its just weird when i have like. 1000 readers on tapas and get 0 comments i guess? I do kinda feel like my comic is very.... Its very linear its character driven and people can onky say "aw cute ^^" so much so idk what they would say

Like its legit .1%

keii4ii

hides the bloody knife

Deo101

ITS IN THE FLOWER POT!!!

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I was getting about 1k daily views right after I joined SF but now it’s back down to about 100 a day, so shrugs

keii4ii

Views though, it's natural they spike like that even if you retain 100% of the people who checked out your comic!

because typically, people only go through the old pages once

so they give you more views upon first visit

Deo101

^^^

keii4ii

But I 100% understand the worry of "why do people check out my comic and decide not to read it... is there something wrong with my work"

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

On webtoons I think I have relatively good engagement for Eryl considering my low sub number. I have about 350-some subs and get an average of 1-2 unique comments per page, though that number goes up when a character dies. (edited)

That’s true! They do get kinda ‘falsely’ inflated when people binge-read archives

Deo101

Most comments i ever got is when I said "tell me your pet names"

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Lmao, I should try that

Deo101

And then outside of that when luzio and sage do something cute is the most I get like, organically just frim my content

Amas are second most comments which are again, me starting the discussion

Maybe alk my authors comments should be like "tell me about your fave color" that'll inflate my stats

keii4ii

One person told me they don't comment because everything seems so obvious, and they don't wanna be captain obvious. Which I can respect. But I don't think everything is that obvious if the most common comment I get is "I'm lost"

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Hmmmm

Deo101

Hahahahhahahahah

Like "NO PLEASE SHARE THESE THINGS"

keii4ii

IKR

Deo101

Help everyone else out!!!

keii4ii

There is a term in Korean comment section culture

"Konan" (from Detective Konan)

It's a term for commenters who explain obtuse stuff for other readers

Sometimes you'll even see comments like "Hurry up, Konans! I'm too tired to think! Spoonfeed me what happened in this update!"

Deo101

Me reading every comic ever

keii4ii

I NEED A KONAN IN MY COMMENT SECTION

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Honestly I wish western readers did that, but they either get attacked for being ‘Captain Obvious’ or people scream SPOILER!!!! at them

Deo101

I really wish people woukd expkain for me too because then i know some people get it, but ALSO i dont want to explain things i didn't show, accidentally.

snuffysam

one thing i've found that helps with engagement is making sure to include something on the page for people to talk about, no matter how relevant it is. like a while back i had a (in my opinion) fairly boring scene where it's basically "where do we gotta go" "i'm not telling" "please" "ok you gotta go here" so to give readers something to talk about i had one of the characters take a hotdog out of a pokeball and eat it.

keii4ii

There was also this incredibly, incredibly obtuse comic. It had a fascinating hook but then became almost impossible to follow. You'd see comments like "so this is the Forbidden Realm that even Konans cannot enter."

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Hahaha

Deo101

I try to make every page have something, i usually have 3 goals i want a page to accomplish but it's not very... Fun i guess? Its just kibda like "yes this happened"

keii4ii

It's also kinda sad when you DO put something important to you, and nobody says anything (or worse, says "so when is it gonna get interesting???")

Deo101

Yeah...

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

So once I spun this theory on a comic by picking it up from context clues. And I was like ‘Hey guys, what if X character is the dragon???’ and everyone was like ‘WELL DUH IT’S IN THE HOVER TEXT.’ I read comics on mobile where hover text doesn’t always work, and after getting sneered at for something ‘everyone knew already’ I was put off of ever being a Konan type again.

Deo101

I never read the hover text unless its by accident I just dont think t

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yeah. And it wasn’t obvious from reading without the hover text so I was really proud of myself for figuring it out. But it just goes to show how rude commenters can scare away well-intentioned ones.(edited)

keii4ii

aaaugh D:

snuffysam

tbh i'm not sure why an author would put something important in the hover text where mobile readers can't see it. or tbh in blogs, side stories, etc. if it's important to understanding the main story, it should be in the comic.

Deo101

Yeah that's what im thinking... Hover text should be for puns

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

It was revealed later that chapter in the main comic, but apparently it wasn’t a ‘secret’ like I thought it was.

keii4ii

Bleeeh, sorry that happened to you. >_< This is why we can't have nice things

Where is the nearest Konans R Us, I want to order one for each of our comics.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yeah... I’m very socially anxious / awkward so I’ve been scared away from quite a few comment sections. I still read the comics and buy them if they go to print, but a negative commenting experience usually discourages me from ever participating in the discussion.

keii4ii

100% understandable

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Which is why I feel it’s super important for the creators to moderate their comments (or hire a good moderator if they don’t have the time). A lot of comment sections get toxic if the author is lax about fostering a positive discussion environment.

Deo101

That makes me feel much better about the times ive asked people to cut Something out or deleted comments.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I appreciate that effort very much.

Deo101

I worry that its "disengenuous" or something and if someone has a negative opinion I don't want to be like "nope you're ONLY allowed to be nice to me!!!" But it's not good, i don't think, to let people feel safe being mean In my comments.

keii4ii

Yeah, there is being critical, and there is being mean

Deo101

So I rarely do it but I have and I don't feel any guilt over the times i have

Right

keii4ii

Sometimes a comment can tread the fine line between the two and it's really annoying that it's not Obviously, Blatantly Mean

Deo101

Yeah hahahahahhaha

keii4ii

But I try to remember that I too have walked that line unintentionally and obliviously, back when I was younger

Deo101

Right. I have too

I was like "oh man I am so smart and im about ti IMPART MY KNOWLEDGE ON YOU!!!" *Is a jerk *

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

That one comic I was talking about earlier: the author had a hard time keeping up with moderating and eventually took comments off the main site. It was 100% not her fault and she was herself getting emotionally distressed from the amount of negativity in the comments. Especially since the comic itself is really thoughtful and has a lot of messages of acceptance.

Deo101

keii4ii

>_<

Deo101

Uhh but yeah! Does .1% feel like about what y'all get as far as comments:readers goes?

.1-.2

I feel like i have no actual gague for this lol

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

It varies from comic to comic (for no quantifiable reason, usually) but that is about right. 99% of readers are lurkers.

Deo101

Dope, I was worried I had like super low numbers when talking with some people and it got me worried about my content

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Plus subs don’t necessarily translate to active readers. A lot of people just never clean out their library after they stop reading something / subbed it to read later and never got around to it or left the site entirely.

Deo101

But I've also just got a lot of anxiety about what im producing and how it's percieved in general

Yeah ik

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I can see people binging my archives from my stats but maybe 1 in 100 or less leaves any comments.

snuffysam

on average, each subscriber to my comic has posted about 45 comments total (which is like 0.07 comments per subscriber per page) if someone clicks on a page (subscriber or not), there is a 0.5% chance of that person leaving a comment.

Deo101

See for me its like. 1 in 1000 leaves a comment...

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

(It’s okay I get anxiety over it, too)

Deo101

Yeah i was gonna say uhhh whats it called

Shoot i lost mt train of thought.

Right. I feel like the longer a comic goes on tbe less frequently people engage

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yeah, I’ve noticed that in my comics, too.

Deo101

Like less readers will have made it to the end, more will be inactive, etc

snuffysam

i've found that my active commenters take a jump in early march (i.e. right after the comic's anniversary), and any time a book ends (since, i guess people like seeing how all the stuff that's happened in the book culminates)

Deo101

Oh that's an interesting note

snuffysam

i suppose that's some other advice on increasing engagement - give a reason for even caught-up readers to leave comments. one thing i've been doing is redrawing old pages and releasing the redraws on anniversaries, which gives reason for people to re-read.

and for end of book stuff, i suppose people are more willing to predict how something is going to end when it's close to ending

Deo101

Hmmmm

I'm taking notes

twothirty

seeking validation through comments is my downfall, because i just dont seem to write a comic that has the type of readership who is into that. What helped was just looking at google analytics and being like "oh right, of course people read this, its clearly here in this data" haha.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

twothirty, same. It's kinda hard to get out of that mindset.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Raises hand I need constant reader validation and get depressed easily when there isn’t. It’s not healthy, but it’s really hard to break out of that mindset.

Deo101

Im not seeking validation through comments, but when i have thousands of readers and get only like 5 it does make me look twice and start wondering if there's something I'm doing wrong.

And yeah it's hard to break out of the mindset

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Me constantly atm haha

Deo101

Especially if you've bee. Hurt in the past and you feel like people secretly hate your work because... In the oast they have

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I wonder if it's actually...a change in how people interact with media nowadays?

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Oh yeah, definitely, Deo. I got so much negative feedback when I first started posting webcomics and it still sticks with me today.

Deo101

Yeah I've been lucky where people have been mostly nice to me or otherwise just indifferent which makes it so I don't have a super negative experience that my anxieties latch onto

And its STILL hard

Because words of affirmation is my love language lol

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Partly I think it was because I was creating a lot of gender-nonconforming characters in an era when that wasn’t well-accepted in Western comics (reminder that I was surrounded by a veeeery conservative environment at the time), and partly because my skills were just not what they are now. There were a lot of nasty comments from both strangers and people I knew, and it was really tough to work through. I think if I hadn’t had the Tomgeeks forum to hang out in, I probably would have given up.

(For you young’uns, Tomgeeks was a webcomic list site and we had a really tight group in the forums. A lot of that old crowd are now in Spider Forest).

Kabocha

(Sorry, saw the tomgeeks mention! I remember aspiring to be in that group one day, but I was a lil' too much of a noob back in the day.) A lot of media is kind of... Sometimes you need to put a call to action to be like, "HEY LEAVE A COMMENT!" or something - else, they forget in a lot of cases, but ofc that's no guarantee.

keii4ii

Re: people being less willing to engage the longer a comic has been going on, that is definitely a thing

I think it's called archive burn or something

and I feel it too sometimes, as a reader. I feel like I'm not "allowed" to start reading a comic unless I can find a big enough chunk of free time to finish the archive in one session

It's 100% irrational but... it is a thing

I've found that I don't experience it IRL, with physical books. The end of each volume is a really good stopping place

snuffysam

then i suppose a problem is that webcomics don't really have stopping points you can physically see like physical books like when you're reading a book series, you know where one book ends, but when you read a comic you don't really unless you check how many pages each chapter has

and even then it's hard to keep that in mind when it isn't physical

mariah (rainy day dreams)

I definitely understand that feel. It's kept me from doing a lot of the book club comics because I'm like "I got ten pages in, but that's not enough to comment" T_T

snuffysam

maybe someone could program a widget for comic sites that works similarly to the page indicators in ebooks. like "you're 40% of the way through the chapter, and at your current reading speed you have 10 minutes left"

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Comic Rocket!

mariah (rainy day dreams)

Does Archive Binge also have a feature like that?

I feel like they might... I don't use those kind of readers so I'm not super familiar with them.

snuffysam

archive binge lists what page you're on and how many pages the comic has, but there's no reading speed thing no

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I don't know. I'm technically on Archive binge, but didn't get any subs there so I didn't look into it past creating my listing. I don't use those services myself because I like a nice long archive to work through, but I know that comic Rocket shows you how much of an archive you've read.

snuffysam

also, the thing i'm talking about would be for chapters as well as the whole comic. because if there is a big archive, people like to know how long they have before a good stopping point

mariah (rainy day dreams)

I'm on Archive Binge. I don't think I have any subs either but definitely get traffic regularly as if I did. How even does internet work ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

snuffysam

i guess recently updated?

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I usually check out the archive page of a comic to get a good idea of chapter length, myself. So I know if I'm in for 10 pages chapters or 100 page chapters. Plus, idk, I have no problem stopping anywhere and picking it up again later, but I may be a pretty atypical reader.

Lmao, I have no idea how the internet works. I was one of the first people to list on Archive Binge and I have never gotten a single click from it. I get a steady number from Comic Rocket, though.

keii4ii

I wonder if it'd be worth experimenting with chapter numbers? Like, re-number existing chapters like "Season 2, chapter 2 of 15" instead of "chapter 20" ?

Deo101

^ thats a good idea

seeing "chapter 20" makes me as a reader go like, oh god, theres so many,,

snuffysam

^ that's one of the major reasons i label things "book X chapter Y" instead of just counting up chapters forever though adding "out of" is an interesting addition...

keii4ii

I'm nearing the end of season/ book/ whatever 2. I should give this a try

Cronaj

Lol, my books are going to be 3 chapters long each, so I don't think it would make much sense for me XD

keii4ii

Yeah, my chapters are short but numerous, so this might have a different effect than comics with longer but fewer chapters

Deo101

I'd be afraid of saying "out of" cause... well, i dont know how many heheh...

it all gets wacky when it comes time to actually make the thing

snuffysam

i mean, could add 'em retroactively as each "season" finishes

Deo101

oh thats true!

keii4ii

I would probably do "Chapter x out of [REDACTED]" (not that but something similar) when I start posting book 3

Cronaj

Yeah, my chapters are around 35-50 pages, so they're pretty long'

snuffysam

listing how many chapters are in book 3 would kinda spoil a twist lol, so i'll probably only do it retroactively

same lol

and some are 80 pages

book 3's going to have one 120 page chapter which is wild

Cronaj

I was thinking about printing 4-5 chapter books, make it more like a manga-length

keii4ii

You know, some comics (Korean comics do this a lot) do like... Chapter 10: Happy Day, followed by Chapter 11: Happy Day (2), followed by Chapter 12: Happy Day (3)

Cronaj

but full color printing is expensive

keii4ii

Dividing what might have been a single chapter into digestible chunks

snuffysam

i've split "arcs" into multiple chapters before, but unfortunately there aren't really any solid split areas in the chapter in question

Cronaj

and I doubt anybody wants to shell out $25+ on a 200 page comic

This is of course, a consideration for the future, as I don't even have the first chapter finished yet, but ya know

Come next year, I'll have some big decisions to make

@keii4ii Is that a webtoon thing? I've noticed that webtoons have shortish chapters

snuffysam

webtoons an entire chapter is posted at once

keii4ii

It's a Korean thing, which means Webtoons gets some of it

Cronaj

I mean, technically I post my comic in scrolling format, so I consider it a webtoon, but it's definitely drawn for print

@snuffysam, I mean the length of the chapters. The chapters (or episodes) are usually somewhere between 50-100 panels long, which is anywhere between 10-20 pages of a traditional comic

keii4ii

(Tangent, but as a Korean speaker I'm very weirded out by the word "webtoon" in English contexts. Over there every webcomic regardless of format is called a webtoon; I guess it's like anime/manga in Japanese? That in Japan, every animated show is anime, and every cartoon thingie is manga?)

Cronaj

Yeah, that makes sense

In the english speaking world, originally there were comics and webcomics, with little difference between except that one was posted online

but when Korean webtoons entered the English-speaking market, the naming conventions changed

The major difference being the prevalence of scrolling-format webtoons, which made people think that the difference between webtoons and webcomics is the format

but really, it's just a naming thing

You can call a comic a manga, and people expect a black and white comic in a specific style, but really, it's just a comic in Japanese

keii4ii

Yeah

Deo101

I usually just say "scroll style comic" or "page format comic" because im putting pages up on webtoons so it feels... weird to me

keii4ii

That too

IT'S A PICTURE STORY THINGIE WITH SPEECH BALLOONS

Deo101

hahahaha

Cronaj

In the end we are all just children XD

kayotics

this is really late, but i've been getting a lot more comments on my main site lately and I have no idea what I did to encourage that.

Deo101

people caught on

kayotics

That's probably all it is, but it's really surprising that my main site is the one getting more comments, since I wouldn't say it's necessarily a well built comment system? It's the native CMS comment system, and I require the first comment to be moderated

keii4ii

Does this mean I can claim I started reading Ingress before it got famous 8)

kayotics

yes

BUT, I'd say that the estimation of 1% of readers (or whatever the number was) is still accurate.

Deo101

.1% ish

kayotics

I have the most eyes on my comic over on Tapas, and while I do get a handful of comments there, it still equates to less than 1% of the total people subscribed. I'm sure there's a lot of reasons for that (like subscribers who aren't regular readers, people who quit the app, etc), but even the ratio of views to comments is pretty low.

Deo101

yeah I've been noticing that too

I have the most eyes on webtoons but I still have like. a good chunk on tapas and I think those are just more... casual sites

kayotics

yeah absolutely

Deo101

like on comicFury I have way higher engagement rates and i think that's pretty typical cause most of that audience there is also creators

kayotics

I'm sure there's some people who are pretty dedicated on Tapas, but I'd guess that there's more dedicated readers on my self-hosted site, just because they have to specifically seek out the content.

Deo101

^that makes a lot of sense to me

I know a lot of people who follow me on tapas are following 100+ other comics

and i know for SURE I wouldnt be able to take the time/effort to comment on like 10+ comics a day, assuming theyre even keeping up with all thsoe

wow yeah I just checked my list this person has over 6,000 comics theyre subscribed to, and a few have over 500

just on the first page of my readers(edited)

sooooo yeah it makes sense why engagement would be low if people are regularly reading that mant...

keii4ii

I actually rambled about this on twitter recently!

Deo101

and also makes me feel a little bit less bad when people are confused hahahahaha

keii4ii

How I thought I'd get a very small readership who are into what I'm making, but I ended up getting that very small readership PLUS a huge number of people who are just casually reading it

That first expectation was mostly based on my experience with my previous webcomic, but things were different back then. Big platforms weren't a thing, so casual readers were less common.

Deo101

yeah that's really neat

since I've only been making millennium for like... a little over 2 years and it's my first comic, I kinda just started with like 5 mirrors and was like "alright well, lets see how this goes I guess"

I had only ever read one webcomic before i literally have no idea how or why i got so convinced into making a comic

but since I was like 12 years old I was like "hm... I am going to make a comic i think." I just never did any research or tried til recently

or read any. I dont know how this happened

keii4ii

Casual readers vastly outnumbering the dedicated ones used to make me feel like I was doing something wrong, but I think that's just how the times are.

Deo101

Yeah :/ it's hard NOT to notice and feel like you're doing something wrong though.

when its like "okay i have 7,000 subs and got 5 comments" it's like ??? what am i doing WRONG

even though... its nothing wrong

it just be that way

hard to match those two ideas up though

almost went to continue this thought in an entirely different channel.

I think there is also something to be said for people not wanting to repeat a comment

like "oh someone already said what I thought so I'll just give it a thumbs up"

keii4ii

That's what upvoting is for!!!

Deo101

yup!

keii4ii

though, tfw highest voted comments are like "I have no idea wtf is going on lol"

Deo101

YEAH.

also do you ever comment on your own pages?

like not replying to people

keii4ii

I think I did once or twice, back when I actualy had relevant info and didn't have enough room in author's notes or something

Deo101

I've done it a few times, but it's usually kind of to ask questions where I can get replies

keii4ii

I have also seen a pro Korean creator post "first" on their own comic because they were tired of seeing so many of those

Deo101

I did that once LMAO

it's funny when people comment on my comic "FIRST!!!" cause i'm like. dude i get like 10 comments it's not that special to be first

but i'm happy theyre there and theyre excited its kinda cute i guess

keii4ii

Yeah, it's harmless

Deo101

and it's also nice to have people think that they have to race to be first

even though they don't

so it's kind of a nice comment to get even if it's not commenting on my work at all

keii4ii

It's kinda like hitting the like/heart button, just with more HURRY POINTS

Deo101

yeah hehe

oh i do 100% like all my own pages though

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I actually get the most commenters on Webtoons but I’m (fairly?) sure I have more readers on my website.

Deo101

on webtoons, I don't do it on tapas cause you can see i did it LOL

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I think I only ever got one First! comment and that was the only comment on that page.

keii4ii

Hey no shame in being your own #1 fan

Deo101

the one time I said "first!" was cause it had no comments on it for like a year and a hal

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Oh no, I don’t like my own pages. For some weird reason I feel like it’s cheating.

Deo101

and hell YEAH! I'm my number one fan so much that i'm making a dang comic for how much I like these characters ;D

keii4ii

I don't feel bad about liking my own pages, but I rarely do it because I wait a bit before even looking at the post

Deo101

inflate your own stats its cool. all the cool kids are doing it

keii4ii

And by the time I look at it, I forget about liking

Deo101

I only do it on webtoons cause I have to manually post there anyways

so i post and its like "heres the page!" and im like :) good job me :)

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I might start doing it. XD I get an average of 5-10 likes per page so why not.(edited)

Deo101

I also rate myself 10* or whatever the max is wherever I can

keii4ii

Yeah, and TBH one like isn't gonna give you an unfair advantage anyway

Deo101

keii4ii

If you're making a dozen alt accounts to give yourself more likes, now that's a bit questionable

Deo101

yeah that would be not so good

but you're a real account who likes your work so why not!

keii4ii

Yeah!

Deo101

I also honestly kinda like to sub to my own stuff and like my pages partially to make sure it's all working right

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I should probably rate myself 10* bc both my comics got ratings-bombed at one point for really dumb reasons.

Deo101

like to see when the page goes up and everything

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

The ratings have slowly crawled back up a ways, but it’s always disheartening when people attack my comics for stupid things.

keii4ii

Oh, to go back to an earlier point about asking questions to readers to encourage commenting, I might straight up ask next week if my comic is making any sense.

Deo101

ohhhhh man i dont like swingin at that hive lol

keii4ii

I'll have to word it well because I do not want it to be a pity party

Deo101

but i mean it might encourage the people who do get it to go "yup!"

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I do straight up ask every now and then. Sometimes I’ll get a pity comment when I do and sometimes it’s still crickets.

Deo101

also I feel really lucky that I havent had anyone be like, mean to my about my work.

I feel like trolls have really gone down in popularity

keii4ii

like even right now I feel like nobody's getting it (except maybe <10 people) so..... I don't think the answers could make me feel worse

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I meant I straight up ask for comments, ugh, I misread Keiiii’s post.

I GET IT, KEIIII

I LOVE UR BABIES

Deo101

oh man, I could never just ask for comments. if I'm feeling really down I usually send it to my friends like "can i have smth nice please" I just get really anxious asking people for things

not that asking is necessarily bad I just, as a person could never do that

also keiiii I havent read it yet but it's on my list cause the way you talk about your work and what I do know of it... seems like it would really jive right with me

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I usually do it along the lines of: ‘If you enjoy this comic, don’t forget to leave a comment! Getting feedback motivates me to keep drawing!’

Deo101

oh okay thats not so bad

oh my god how are the eyes moving

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I’m shameless, you can say it

Deo101

I have too much shame probably

keii4ii

It is my anxiety moving the eyeballs

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Give me sone of your shame, it’ll even us out

Deo101

please take it

keii4ii

(anxiety with Nitro powers)

Deo101

NOOO dont be anxious im gonna love it

god that eyes shaking emoji is so great

keii4ii

ikr!

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

So fun fact- my real face eyes do that

keii4ii

I think Tatsumaki wants to see you do it

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

It’s called nystagmus and it’s super trippy if you’ve never seen it before!

keii4ii

OH, I knew someone with that condition!

I never noticed anything about their eyes (only heard about them having the condition from talking), because I never met them while wearing my glasses X'D;;

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

My eyes just RANDOMLY do it a lot and it really freaks people out XD

Desnik

I've found that comments don't matter too much, but getting a boost from someone with a big following does

and the only comments I take seriously are from people I trust, although I get it: chasing the internet numbers is fun

snuffysam

what do you mean by "comments don't matter" you mean, like, in terms of garnering popularity?

Desnik

yeah, and as validation they can be a bit fluffy too

my perspective changed when I started printing out my work as zines and got people to buy them irl, it was very eye-opening

very few people commented on them online but in person I've found out they're not bad? And one of them got me a lettering job

keii4ii

Eh, I think it's okay to have different goals. To some people, good comments mean the world, and that's totally valid to want that.

Desnik

I know, just stating my pov

keii4ii

I mean that to some people, a good comment is not just an "internet number."

Desnik

fair enough

I believe I allowed for 'good comments' as being from someone I trust

keii4ii

Me, I treasure insightful comments from anyone who's invested in my story. To each their own

FeatherNotes

I have a book that I write them down to give me a lil boost to morale when I need it! i def appreciate the time it took for someone to write something thoughtful

keii4ii

Yeah!

Capitania do Azar

Oh comments are like.. What I like the most! (not all comments are the same tho). The reason I put my story out there is so I can share it and discuss it with people and the fact that a few take some time off their day to actively tell me what they think it's what keeps me moving

eli [a winged tale]

I really enjoy comments too. I always respond to my Instagram ones but not the comic ones mostly because of platform difficulties

Glowbat (Aloe)

I love reading through all the comments- they really motivate me when I'm having a low point and need a pick me up to get goin on pages. I just wish I was better at knowing how to respond instead of just liking the comment and hoping they recieve my telepathic brainwaves of gratitude

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Replying to comments is very hard and I always have the anxiety of "ruining" it haha ;; whatever it is (the person's enjoyment of my work?? who knows)

Glowbat (Aloe)

I feel that- part of me is always nervous I'm gonna say somethin to off put them or smthn.

Though I do try my best to curate comment sections if things are looking like they're gonna get rowdy

keii4ii

YEAH, and/or sometimes you're like "this comment is Awesome and deserves an Equally Awesome reply... HOW DO I DO THAT" and get stuck in a loop

Glowbat (Aloe)

yesss exactly that

I'm not that clever and I require lots of time to come up with anything I'm confident in lol

and by the time I have something cool to say back its been like a week

keii4ii

I made a Discord icon to express my internal response in a visual form to such Awesome comments, but I can only use those on Discord

This one:

Glowbat (Aloe)

Hehe

cuteee

and also a mood

keii4ii

Sparkling tears of happiness

Capitania do Azar

I believe them

Cronaj

Man... I will admit, I barely respond to comments

And that probably sounds terrible

But I honestly don't have time to respond to every comment

As well as the anxiety of not know what to say

It does depend on platform tho

keii4ii

I mean, as a reader I don't expect a reply if my comment is like "ooo nice!"

Cronaj

Generally, I respond more readily to comments on Tapas than on Webtoons, because I only have like 2 commenters at most on Tapas

And usually it's readers who ALWAYS comment, so I almost feel like they deserve a response, even if it's just a smiley face or a "thank you"

keii4ii

But if I've written a long ass essay comment, it would be nice to have some kind of engagement with that. Don't get me wrong, the creator doesn't owe me a reply but it's like... should I ever do this again with this comic. Or is my reply-writing time better spent on another comic

Cronaj

True

keii4ii

I def respect that not every creator has time to read all of the comments, regardless of how many comments they typically get

Cronaj

On Webtoons, I have way more engagement, but most of it is thirst for my characters or talking about the art style

keii4ii

and that not every creator may even aim to get comments

Cronaj

So I don't usually know how to respond to stuff like that

keii4ii

But if that is the case........ I would rather know before committing myself to multiple essay-length comments

Yeah, that is understandable!

Cronaj

I read every comment, but I don't want to respond to all of them

keii4ii

I'm 100% cool with "thicc" comments on my MC's butt or on my tiger dude's legs, but I can't necessarily think of productive replies to those

Cronaj

The only comments I respond to on Webtoons are either a) incredibly funny, b) meaningful and noticing more than the art, or c) a genuine question

Like if someone asks about my update schedule

Or if someone wants to know which programs I use

I had one comment about how good my grammar in the dialogue/thoughts is, and I felt so honored that someone else noticed

Usually I get comments about the art (which is also nice), but I prefer comments about the story or subtleties

keii4ii

It's the best thing when people notice the things that you put a lot of thought and love into

Cronaj

For several years in high school, I played around with the idea of getting a writing degree, so grammar and literary language have a special place in my heart

sssfrs

I respond to every single comment... I get one comment a month pretty much though

When friends or readers say nice things about my comic on any platform I save a screenshot and read them if I start to feel like nobody likes what I’m making

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I do the exact same

FeatherNotes

Its a good practice when things are kind of slow! Or just for that lip morale boost too

#ctparchive #comics #webcomics #indie comics #comic chat #comic discussion #comic tea party #ctp #creator interview #comic creator interview #creator babble

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lloydskywalkers · 4 years

Text

skywalker syndrome, pt. II

*sweats nervously* this is...so long. This is so, so long and it’s not even the last part, but i just have a loT OF FEELINGS about it okay T-T

Anyways! here is the continuation of my extensively angsty, s9-Lloyd-loses-an-arm-AU that i posted about a year ago, now featuring four whole over-concerned siblings who are finally back in the same realm.

The funny thing about life as a ninja extraordinaire, is that there are certain things that you can totally suppress, and never deal with ever. Like, they might still be there, lurking in the dark corners of your mind like vaguely threatening mold or something, and sure, one of these days they could blossom into actual issues, and then threaten to destabilize whatever’s left of your emotional stability, but you can at least ignore them for a while. And if you’re Lloyd —which he is — you can get really good at ignoring them, to the point where you almost forget they’re there half the time. Bam, problems solved.

But as it turns out, unfortunately, there are also some things that you just can’t.

One of those, even more unfortunately, happens to be losing, say, an entire limb. And to top off the entire stack of unfortunateness — the unfortunatetest — most unfortunate? — part about the whole thing: Lloyd currently happens to fall into the second category.

(Will always fall into the second category, he doesn’t know why he’s saying currently, it’s not like his arm is gonna grow back—)

Anyways. Lloyd has finally met an issue that he can’t ignore, and that’s…another issue, he guesses. Oh, he’s tried, but walking off a lost arm is just a lot more difficult than ignoring trauma, or a broken rib or something.

“But I mean, it also could have been a leg, and then I’d have real trouble walking it off, haha, get it?”

“There are so many concerning things in that essay’s worth of words you just threw at me, I don’t even know where to start,” Nya sighs.

“Aw, c’mon,” Lloyd nudges her shoulder with his fist from where he sits in the battle wagon next to her, metal fingers clanking oddly against her shoulder armor. “That wasn’t even my worst pun.”

“That’s not what I’m referring to, and you know it,” Nya side-eyes him. Then, after a beat— “And that one was low-hanging fruit. I know you can do better.”

“Yeah, yeah, I’ll come up with something better when we’re not running on zero hours of sleep,” Lloyd yawns, propping his elbows up on the dashboard and leaning against them, scrubbing at his eyes. He flinches back at the cold of his metal hand, and scowls at it instead, as if its inability to create heat like a normal limb is a personal insult. He lets it fall limp against the dashboard with a dull clank, laying his normal, warm human arm on top, and using that as a pillow.

He then squeezes his eyes shut, enjoying the brief relief from the thundering headache he’s had the last few days, before screwing them back open. Nya is staring at him fully now, face pinched in concern. Lloyd thinks that’s rather unfair, because her eyes are every bit as bloodshot as his, and he’s definitely caught her wincing from a headache of her own like, six times today already.

“Lloyd.”

“What.”

Nya sighs again — she’s been doing that a lot lately — and finally takes her hands off the wheel, leaning back in her seat, pulling her leg up and wrapping her arm around her knee. “You can’t do that.”

“Do what?” Lloyd says petulantly, knowing full well what she’s talking about.

Nya knows too, because she gives him a look. “Ignore that kind of stuff,” she says, waving a hand absently in the air. “Trauma, and whatnot.”

“I’m not ignoring my trauma,” Lloyd rolls his eyes, because they’ve had this conversation a minimum of sixty times now, so he’s ready for it. “I’m just waiting until I have a thing of ice cream big enough to cry it all out over.”

He’s probably going to need an entire ice cream parlor at this point, he muses—

“I’m serious, Lloyd.”

“Uh-huh,” he mutters, burying his face in his arms. “Sure. You wanna talk about Nadakhan while we’re at it, then?”

Nya sucks in a breath, and Lloyd feels a hot flash of guilt for having brought it up.

But like — it’s true. If he’s gotta sort out his issues, then Nya needs to, as well. Fair’s fair, and she needs someone looking out for her. Even if Lloyd’s been doing a pretty terrible job of it lately.

“Sorry,” he murmurs anyways.

Nya presses her lips together, then shakes her head. Her eyes are far away, staring out across the ruined city through the windshield. “No,” she says, her voice a whisper. “No, you’re right. I — you’re right.”

“Well, I’m sorry for that, too.”

Because he wishes he wasn’t right. He’d love to be wrong, about this. He’d love it if they were all just fine, and the guys were back and cracking jokes with them, and Nya had never died after being nearly forced into some twisted marriage, and the city wasn’t crumbling down around them because his sort-of-ex brought back his dead dad, and Lloyd still had both whole arms, and they were all drinking like, strawberry lemonade on the beach right now or something.

“We’re a real mess, huh,” Nya says, and there’s a sniffled edge in her voice that Lloyd doesn’t like.

Lloyd bites his lip, then reaches out, uncurling her fingers from where they’ve gone white around the steering wheel, and squeezing her hand lightly instead. “Kai would say we’re hot messes, though.”

Nya snorts, squeezing his hand back, ad Lloyd feels a bubble of warmth at her smile. They sit there in silence for a bit, watching the smokey clouds drift past above, waiting on Pixal or Skylor to finally call in on the radio, and tell them they can move out already.

Lloyd’s just considering trying for another nap, when Nya speaks up again.

“Really through. Lloyd, we gotta talk it all out eventually. You don’t wanna end up all emotionally suppressed, like your uncle, do you?”

Lloyd sputters, then glares at her. “You take that back. I’m not gonna end up like Uncle Wu.”

“Oh yeah? Just wait, any day now you’re gonna walk in on us, with a big straw hat on, and say ‘terribly sorry, my loyal ninja, but there’s something I haven’t told you’—“

Lloyd throws his mask at her, even as he breaks into snickers at the deep-toned voice she’s using. “I am not!”

“—you’ll have a beard, too,” Nya continues, grinning. “Like, ten feet long—“

“Ten, please, have you seen my hair? I bet I can do twenty—“

“Oh yeah, Rapunzel? What’cha gonna do then, trip over it into your enemies?”

“No, I’m — I’m gonna strangle them with it.”

That mental image is the final straw for Nya, and she doubles over in loud cackling, stuffing her fist against her mouth to try and silence her laughter. Lloyd’s already dissolved into giggles, but his attempt to keep them quiet sounds a whole lot more like rheumatic wheezing, which only makes them laugh harder.

“Please,” Nya breathes, when they’ve finally wound down. “Never grow a beard.”

“I dunno,” Lloyd says, stroking his chin, in what he hopes looks like an accurate impression of Uncle Wu. “I think I got the face for it—”

“You don’t.”

“Ouch, right in the heart.”

“It’s for your own good, bud.”

“We’ll see what Kai says.”

“He’s gonna agree with me, and you know it.”

“Hmph.”

“…and Lloyd?”

“Hm?”

“ ‘Unfortunatetest’ isn’t a word.”

“You aren’t a word.”

The other funny thing about life, though, is that no matter how miserable it gets, it’s always bearable with Nya.

************************

Which is probably why Lloyd doesn’t really start to crack until Nya goes down.

“Oh no — oh no, Nya, you’re okay, you’re fine, you’re all good, just — you’re okay—”

“I’m fine, stop telling me what I already know,” Nya gets out, through gritted teeth against the pain. She couldn’t be more clearly not fine, but between the two of them, they seem to believe that if they can say it’s fine enough, it’ll all work out. It’ll be just fine. Nya just had a car fall on her and probably shattered her arm but it’s — it’s fine, she hasn’t lost it yet, and if it comes down to it, she can have his other arm, because Nya is not losing a limb today.

Between him and Dareth, they finally manage to get the car — the entire car, Lloyd is losing the battle to panic by the second — off Nya, and Lloyd’s right back at her side to worry more. Nya shrugs him off, squeezing her eyes shut against the pain as she struggles to rise, wobbling in place.

But she still pushes herself up, on her feet, and picks up her spear with her good arm, and Lloyd decides for like, the tenth time this week, that Nya is the strongest person he knows. Right up there with Skylor, who’s actually insane, as it turns out, holding off an entire Colossi with his father’s stolen power — Skylor’s incredible.

But Skylor’s also currently unconscious in the battle wagon, and now Nya’s in severe pain and down an arm, and she doesn’t have a handy — aha —replacement like Lloyd does. And Pixal’s in Kryptarium so all that’s left of the ninja is Lloyd, and Dareth looking to him for answers, and Lloyd should be used to this, he’s leader, he could practically write the book on being in desperate, all-consuming-panic situations like this, but—

Harumi’s dead. Lloyd’s powers are gone, and people are dying now. Because of his dad, because of this stupid vengeance spree, because of him.

Lloyd’s eyes smart painfully, and he tightens his grip on Nya’s good arm, wondering, not for the first time, how in the world it had all come to this.

“We need to — we need to—” Nya cuts off, biting the inside of her cheek. Her composure falters, and Lloyd can see the same hopeless sort of exhaustion in her eyes, the weeks of running on fumes taking their toll. They need to get moving, they need to regroup, but there’s no one to regroup with. It’s just them, Lloyd and Nya, and they might be able to function independently better than anyone else but they’re also chronic younger siblings. The reminder that they’re not supposed to be alone is driven so deeply into their heads that it’s not even annoying anymore.

Not when they’re so very, very alone now.

“We can fall back,” Lloyd suggests, his voice wavering. “We can—” He swallows. Hide feels cowardly, but even he knows it’d be useless to suggest, anyways. They’ve run out of hiding places from Garmadon. He’d find them, Lloyd knows he will. His father is a lot of things right now, and relentless is one of the stronger ones.

“We can move, at least,” Dareth says, panic tinging his voice. “Those Sons of Garmadon will be on us any minute.”

It’s not Dareth’s fault, but it certainly feels a lot like karma as, at that very second, the sound of motorcycles echoes down the street, mixed with the familiar cries of the Sons of Garmadon.

They all go tense. Nya and Lloyd look at each other, and Lloyd wonders if the expression of fear on her face is mirrored on his, or if he looks closer to terror.

Either way, he’s frozen in place, and that’s bad, because they’re all frozen now. Maybe this is it. Maybe they’ve finally run out of the will to keep going. Maybe this is for the better. At least it’s not his father.

But then he remembers that they’ll probably take him to his father anyways, and if Lloyd didn’t have terror on his face before, he does now.

The loud roars of the motorcycles are circling now, and if Lloyd’s right, they’ve got barely a minute left before they’re surrounded. That’s not enough time to make it out. Not with everyone, not with the condition they’re in.

And Lloyd’s not about to leave anyone behind.

Nya sucks in a shaky breath, her face white from pain as her bad arm shifts. “Lloyd, do you — do you have any ideas?”

Lloyd stares up at the smoke rising above the city, his city, and the skin that meets his prosthetic throbs. His head does too, exhaustion mixed with pain mixed with dying adrenaline leaving him sick.

You’ve failed, Green Ninja. Your father won this round.

Like he does every round, Lloyd thinks bitterly. Morro had it right, back in Styx. He doesn’t deserve to be the Green Ninja. Not when he can’t win the fights that matter.

But he’s still Lloyd. He’s still Nya’s little brother, and even Garmadon can’t take that from him if he tried. So he shakes his head, croaking out, “Sorry, I’m stumped.”

It takes Nya a minute longer than usual, her eyes confused in her pale and dirt-stained face, but then—

She slumps against him, wheezing out what could be a laugh. “If that was an another arm pun, I swear—”

Lloyd tries to keep his face passively blank, but he can’t help the breathless huff of laughter that escapes. It very quickly threatens to turn into hyperventilating, so he cuts it off quickly. They all step closer to each other, forming a tight circle as the motorcycles roar into view, and Lloyd’s knuckles turn white with the fist he’s making.

He almost says I’m sorry, because it feels like what he should say right now, him and his whole sorry bloodline and everything that’s led to this. But Nya would probably hit him if he did that, and get that sad look on her face, so he doesn’t.

“This would be a really good time for the guys to get back,” Lloyd finally says instead, a bit hollowly. Nya gives him a weak smile that threatens to crack into despair as they’re surrounded, the blinding headlights from the Sons of Garmadon pinning them in place.

But maybe, just maybe, karma is on their side after all. Because, not half a second after Lloyd’s said those words, the sky opens up and roaring out from the bright portal, filthy and battered but alive, come the super late — like so late, for real, Lloyd’s gonna give them heck for this — rest of their family.

Lloyd doesn’t think he’s ever been happier to see his big brother’s ridiculous, spiky head of hair in his whole entire life.

************************

In the euphoria of reuniting with the guys and his uncle, Lloyd kind of forgets that he’s lost an arm for a second. He also forgets that the last time the guys saw him, he might have been a half-dead mess on Mystaké’s kitchen table, but he also had both arms. So it’s probably not — not the best of welcome back surprises he could’ve offered.

But the thing is, Lloyd’s at least been thinking his arm looked fine now. Like, it’s obviously not his arm arm anymore, but it’s a whole lot better than the ugly empty space that was there. And Nya put the dragon on and everything, so he can look sick when he either defeats his father or dies horribly.

But for all that it looks fine, the guys’ faces still go ten shades of white when they finally catch sight of it.

Lloyd thinks that’s rather unfair, considering they just burst out of the sky on a bunch of dragons after having been presumed dead, but he’s not gonna pick now to argue with them.

“Wha — how — what — is that—” Kai, predictably, is the first to go to pieces, his eyes wide as dinner plates in his dirt-stained face, his fingers hovering shakily over the metal arm as if touching it will make it real.

“Your arm,” Jay informs him blankly, gaping at him. “It’s gone?”

Oh, Lloyd’s aware.

“Yeah, it’s uh, it’s gone,” he explains, quickly. Then, because he needs to see a different expression on their faces than horrified shock— “It’s — it’s pretty disarming, haha, right?”

Kai looks like he’s either going to combust on the spot or physically smack him.

In the end, he makes this heartbreaking kind of “oh Lloyd” at him before throwing his arms around him, then immediately jumping to the absolute worst conclusions possible.

“Was it your dad — it was your dad, right? Was it Harumi? It must’ve been your dad, oh I’ll kill him, I’ll slaughter him for you Lloyd, I swear to FSM—”

This is followed by a general meltdown of “if only I’d been here,” which spirals into self-blame pretty fast, which Lloyd neither wants nor needs to happen right now (nor thinks is accurate, what could any of them have done anyways), so he throws Nya a desperate look.

“Look, stuff happened, okay?” she says, shouldering her way between Lloyd and the guys, wincing as her wrapped arm pulls. “The city’s on fire and Lloyd’s down an arm, we dealt with it. Right now we need to focus, because Garmadon and the Colossi are still out there, so please tell me those dragons are going to help us out.”

Again, Nya is one of Lloyd’s favorite people in the entire universe.

This distracts them enough that they momentarily get off Lloyd’s back, though he has a feeling he’s either gonna have to answer two hundred questions later or find a really good hiding spot.

But that’s a problem for a different Lloyd to worry about, and this one needs to focus on his father. And the fact that his uncle now looks ten times younger and is, much more importantly, about to let him ride on his dragon.

Lloyd’s halfway to the dragon when Cole catches him. He doesn’t grab him or anything, just touches his arm gently, his eyes horribly sad. “Lloyd,” he murmurs.

Something in Lloyd’s chest twists. This isn’t how it’s supposed to work. How is he supposed to pretend he’s not sad when they’ve all got this look on their faces?

“It’s fine,” he blusters, with a smile that is only half-forced. Fortunately, he has this part rehearsed by now. “It’s not a big deal — it doesn’t even hurt or anything. Don’t worry about it.”

Cole looks like he has every single intention of worrying about it, because Cole is Cole, but Lloyd can’t even find it in himself to be annoyed because he’s missed them so, so much. Sure, he’s mad at himself for giving them something to immediately worry about the second they even get back to the realm, but Lloyd’s too happy to see them at all to mind that much.

Plus, there’s like, a fifty-fifty chance his father is about to kill him pretty soon anyways, so he tries to enjoy it while he can. He’s sure Uncle Wu will do his best, but unless he’s got something big up his sleeve — besides the, uh, age thing — Lloyd isn’t so sure.

Winning against Garmadon isn’t something he’s ever been particularly good at, even with both arms.

************************

Lloyd wins this round.

Somehow, somehow — bruised and bloodied and down an entire arm — he wins this one. It’s almost surreal, standing on top of Borg Tower, the wind whipping eerily around them as he stares down at his father, kneeling on the ground before him. His father, defeated. Lloyd didn’t have to break this time, he didn’t even have to bend. He defeated his father, without his powers, without any cursed venom fueling him, and without his arm.

Take that, you stupid snake.

Well — technically. Technically, he did defeat his father with his arm, because there are going to be some spectacular bruises on Garmadon where he got sucker-punched by a solid metal fist in the morning. But still.

Lloyd didn’t have to kill him. Not this time.

The relief that hits him is so dizzyingly crushing, he almost throws up.

But oh, it figures. The one time Lloyd can end things with his dad alive, and it’s the time his dad hates him.

But Lloyd knows a little too well that things could’ve ended a lot worse. He’s got his family back, his whole family, Kai and Jay and Cole and Zane and the people that have stuck through the worst of it with him, and that’s more than enough for Lloyd to be happy. He doesn’t die, they win back the city, and Kai only cries about it like three times, so honestly, it’s almost the best he could hope for. The worst part is out of the way now, so really — it should be smooth sailing from here. The guys are upset about the arm thing, obviously, but it’s not really that big a deal. Lloyd just has to convince them of that, which shouldn’t be a problem.

A piece of cake, compared to the last few weeks. Besides, he’s already been through the worst of it.

************************

As is his luck, Lloyd finds himself eating his words half a week later.

“First Master—“

Lloyd chokes back a curse, stumbling out from bed as quietly as he can, teeth clacking as he clenches them together to keep from making any more noise. The guys don’t move, still solidly asleep, but that’s going to change real quick if Lloyd starts cursing up a storm over his stupid arm.

He bumps into the doorway on the way out and almost screams, biting his lip hard instead and fleeing down the hallway. Ow, ow, ow. He must’ve rolled his shoulder into his sword sometime in the night, because that’s what it feels like, a horrible kind of deep ache that leaves him wanting to sever what’s left of his limb as he stumbles into the kitchen. At least then, there would be less to hurt.

Lloyd passes by the several large windows in the apartment they’ve been staying in, and his heart immediately sinks. It’s dark outside, but the city lights illuminate the growing clouds above, and he can spot the flash of lightning in the distance. If the slight buzz in his blood at the oncoming storm wasn’t enough to clue him in, the building pressure in the atmosphere certainly is.

And he used to like rain, Lloyd thinks miserably, leaning his head briefly against the wall.

There’s a distant roll of thunder, and something in his arm — his stump, there is no arm there to hurt, that should help — throbs, deep and aching. Lloyd squeezes his eyes shut, fighting back the budding tears of pain, and remembers his mission. They went shopping earlier, and he knows for a fact there’s pain killers somewhere in the kitchen. The promise of relief from the pain is enough to spur him from where he’s slumped against the wall, and he drags his feet down the rest of the hall, finally ducking into the kitchen, which is quiet and empty in the late-night hours.

Great. Now he’s just gotta find the stuff, and he can — well, he can try to go back to sleep. Maybe he’ll just watch cartoons instead, or stare blankly into oblivion, or something. His shoulder throbs again, and Lloyd forces himself to focus, blowing his breathe out. Right. Cole was the last one to take the meds, ‘cause he’s got all those nasty healing cuts. So if he was the one to put the bottle away last, that means it’s probably…on the…top shelf…

Lloyd carefully, quietly drowns the whine of despair in the back of his throat. He’d eat dirt before he admits he’s a shortie, but compared to Cole, everyone is, and Cole has a terrible habit of leaving all the meds on the highest shelf or cabinet possible when he’s done, which are always the ones Lloyd can’t reach. And right now, with the first drops of rain just starting to fleck on the windows, moving his arms anywhere above mid-waist sounds like death.

But sitting here with his arm on fire sounds even worse, so death it is.

Biting the bullet, Lloyd toes the handle on the drawer closest to the floor, bracing his good arm on the counter, and pushes himself up. He wobbles precariously, but he catches himself quickly, breathing out a huff of relief. Now comes the hard part. Gritting his teeth in determination, Lloyd swings his prosthetic arm up as quickly as he can, knocking against the uppermost cabinet and—

Lloyd’s vision blurs out as the pain in his shoulder decides to go nuclear, and he slips back down with a strangled choking sound, clutching the edge of his shoulder and desperately willing himself not to blast through the wall with his powers in agonized frustration. When the pain finally ebbs enough for him to think again, he slumps over the counter, bracing his good shoulder against it and letting the bad one hang loosely, where the pain pulses in and out like a heartbeat.

Like death, he thinks dully, hissing his breath out through his teeth. Right. Okay. He’ll just — take a nap on the counter then, until he can work himself back up to the cabinet.

Lloyd cracks an eye open, glaring hotly at the cabinet out of reach. Maybe if he like…rattles it? With his…leg, or something? He can do a pretty impressive high kick, if he tries. Anything not to move his stupid shoulders, because the pain radiating from the prosthetic port is — oh boy, it’s something.

…with hindsight, he should’ve been prepared for this. But still.

Lloyd kind of just….crashes on the counter, for as long as he can, but the pain finally gets bad enough that he’s willing to risk more for any kind of relief. Gritting his teeth again — his jaw is beginning to hurt — he squares his shoulders, instantly regretting the action as little lines of agony flare in his right side in tune with the thunder from outside. At that point, Lloyd’s brain finally decides it’s done with the situation on the whole, and he’s backing up to make a running jump for the cabinet, when—

“Who’s — stand down, I’ll blast you!”

Lloyd aborts his charge just in time to duck the bolt of lightning that flashes through the room with a yelp, sliding to the floor as his momentum sends him crashing into the lower drawers. His vision whites out for a good minute as he whacks his bad shoulder on the metal edge of a handle, and he might make some kind of muffled scream that sounds enough like him for Jay to recognize, because by the time it clears, Jay is staring at him with wide eyes, his face pale but clearly no longer registering Lloyd as a threat.

Still, just in case— “Don’t shoot,” Lloyd croaks out. “I’m unarmed.”

Jay’s expression spasms, but the crackle of electricity silences, and the blue light extinguishes as he lowers his hands. Lloyd notes the way they’re trembling, despite how hard Jay’s trying to stop it. “Lloyd, seriously,” he mutters, but he’s at Lloyd’s side in a beat, hovering anxiously.

“Are — are you okay?”

“Yeah,” Lloyd says, trying not to wince as he shoulder twinges. “I, uh, sorry if I scared you. I was just getting some water.”

Jay looks up to the cabinets, then back to Lloyd, where he’s yet to rise from the floor. He needs to get up already, because he’s got like, an image to keep here, but he’s also too scared that his stump of a limb is going to attempt murder again, and that’s keeping him pretty solidly rooted to the floor.

“You’re on the floor, you know that, right?”

“Yeah,” Lloyd shoots back, making a face. “Maybe I like it here.”

“Uh-huh.” Jay’s expression is narrow-eyed in skepticism, and Lloyd shrinks in on himself a bit. Still, though — the expression is better to see than the stark terror that had been written over Jay’s face when he’d walked in. The remnants of it are still there, if fading quick — Jay doesn’t look quite like Jay yet, bright and happy and quick on the uptake.

He looks tired, dark circles like bruises beneath his eyes, and his movements are slower than usual, as if perpetually lagging a step behind. Like he’s being dragged down by something, and it’s taking an extra amount of strength to fight it off that’d usually go toward bad jokes.

Which is sad, because Lloyd could really go for a bad joke right now. The atmosphere’s been heavy enough around their little apartment after everything, and it’s only worse now, with Lloyd curled up on the floor and Jay watching his arm with hollow eyes. And that’s not even talking about the actual atmosphere, which is currently trying to make Lloyd consider knocking himself out to escape the pain. Bad Jay jokes would be nice. Lloyd misses having something to laugh about.

But you know what, that’s quitter talk. Lloyd can make bad jokes, too.

“You uh, you wanna give me an arm up, here?” he says, grinning weakly at Jay. “Could really use a hand, if you get what I’m saying.”

“You — you’re terrible,” Jay sputters, but he cracks the edge of a smile, and Lloyd silently congratulates himself on that small victory.

“But you love me.”

It comes out too much of a question, and Lloyd bites his tongue. But Jay’s eyes soften as he pulls him up, and he’s gentle as he does it, so it barely hurts.

“Yeah, short stuff,” he says. “I do.”

And that’s — Lloyd swallows. That’s too much emotion for him to deal with in Jay’s voice right now, even if it is the kind of reassurance he clings to with a desperation these days.

“Short stuff,” he scowls instead. “You’re one to talk.”

“Nuh-uh,” Jay grins, a bit weaker than his usual one. “I grew a half an inch in the First Realm, bud. I’ve got you now.”

“No way,” Lloyd counters, squinting at him. “You look shorter, if anything. I’ve got you now.”

“I do not.” It’s Jay’s turn to scowl. “And please, the only height you’ve gained is your hair. Fluffing it up all crazy does not count.”

Lloyd snorts, despite himself. “My hair, you should see-ee—”

His voice abruptly pitches higher, strangling off mid-sentence as a fresh wave of bright pain sears through his shoulder, throbbing with the increased thudding of rain against the window. Lloyd almost bites his tongue in half as he dips forward, words momentarily lost as his teeth grind together.

Jay’s at his side in an instant. “It’s the storm, isn’t it,” he says, his eyes bright in concern. “Your arm is hurting extra.”

“T-technically, it’s not,” Lloyd breathes out. Words are back online again, that’s good. He exhales, shuddering. “S’just what’s left of it.”

Jay worries his lip, and then realization sparks in his eyes. “You were going for the top cabinet,” he says, slowly. Then— “Cole had the pain meds last, didn't he.”

Lloyd nods, his good hand clutching and un-clutching at his shoulder. Jay makes a sympathetic noise in his throat, then moves for the cabinet himself. He uses the same drawer handle as a step-up that Lloyd did, but he doesn’t wobble, snatching the bottle from the top shelf and stepping down neatly. Thunder shakes through the apartment, and Lloyd squeezes his eyes shut tight, barely conscious of the sound of running water. When he opens them, Jay is in front of him again, a glass of water and four larger pills held out.

“You look like you could use the extra,” he says, in explanation.

Lloyd nods gratefully, shoving the pills in his mouth before grabbing the glass and draining it. “Thanks,” he croaks out.

Jay nods, his eyes lingering on Lloyd’s prosthetic. He opens his mouth once, then closes it. Then opens it again, inhaling like he’s gonna say something, then shuts it again. Then again—

“Jay, spit it out.”

“CanIlookatit,” Jay blurts out, red immediately rising in his cheeks.

Lloyd blinks rapidly, trying to parse out the jumble of words. “Can you — huh?”

“Look at it,” Jay repeats, shifting awkwardly. “Your, uh, your arm? The prosthetic one, I mean. Just ‘cause I think I can help it! Help you, I think I can help you, ‘cause you kinda look like it’s hurting you, which would make sense, with the storm, and I might be able to — to help, if that’s not like, a problem with you — if it is that’s fine! I totally get it, I mean if my arm had got — was lost, I’d be—”

“J-Jay, slow — Jay,” Lloyd tries vainly to cut over him once, before succeeding the second time. Lloyd gives him a weak smile, then flops his arm out. He immediately regrets the action, as it feels like he’s shoved a knife or two into his arm. “It’s — ow — fine. You can look at it.”

“Oh! Cool,” Jay says, deflating in relief. “Ah, thanks for trusting me?”

Lloyd waves him off, with his good arm his time. “There’s like, six people left I trust, but I trust ‘em with my life. You’re one of them.”

“Oh,” Jay repeats, but he sounds sad this time. A little too understanding, too, and Lloyd wonders if their entire team isn’t suffering similar issues with putting faith in people, after everything.

“Here,” Jay says firmly, as if shaking that sobering thought off. He points to the couch, eyeing Lloyd as he winces with the thunder again. “Wanna lie down, so I can look at it?”

“Sure,” Lloyd mutters, flopping down on the couch (and immediately regretting the action, again, you’d think he’d learn by now), lying with his head at the left end so he can spread his prosthetic out on the edge of the cushioned footrest. Jay steps over, carefully sitting down on the floor by him, hands hovering hesitantly over the arm.

…his arm. His arm, just a bit different.

“I like the design here,” Jay says quietly, his fingers ghosting over the engraving Nya had put on one quieter day during the Resistance. It’s in the shape of a dragon, like the one of his other spare prosthetic, but this one is a little subtler, almost sketched into the metal. “It’s cool.”

“Nya did it,” Lloyd says. “And you can touch it, if you want.”

“Oh — yeah,” Jay gives a nervous laugh. “Um. Could I, like, see where it…attaches?”

Lloyd blinks, glancing to where the sleeves of his too-big (Kai’s) t-shirt fall well over where the metal arm meets his stump. He swallows, then nods, carefully rolling back the fabric until his shoulder’s exposed. “That good?”

Jay, to his credit, just gives a quiet, hissing little intake of breath, and nods. And it really is to his credit, because while Pixal did all she could, the surgery was — well, Lloyd was in and out during it, but it was haphazard at best, and the scarring it left all up to his shoulder is…

It’s not pretty. And Lloyd’s been thinking he doesn’t mind, but now that he actually has someone looking at it, he’s realizing he might.

Time to invest in a lot more long sleeves, he thinks dully.

Jay’s frozen for a second, and Lloyd bites his lip, trying not to squirm as he stares openly at the scarring. Then he shakes his head, bright eyes gaining the steady determination Lloyd knows, and sets to work, fingers carefully skimming one of the compartment edges.

“Lemme know if anything hurts.”

Lloyd just nods. It’s weird, at first, feeling but not really feeling as Jay fiddles with the arm. He still doesn’t like not being able to truly feel stuff with it, but right now, with the pulsing pain still lingering from the storm outside, he’s almost glad for it. To the point where the idea of feeling anything else in what’s left of his poor arm almost has him flinching away from Jay.

Jay’s fingers are careful, though, and he finally clicks something in the arm into place that shifts the whole thing, the throbbing pressure on a few particular nerves in Lloyd’s arm letting up some, and his shoulders go loose in relief, the tight rigidness he’s been holding them in easing off.

“Oh,” he exhales in relief, a bit shakily as he sits up. “That’s better. That — thank you. That’s a lot better.”

Jay beams, clearly pleased with himself. “No problem, green machine,” he says. “Just glad I can help. I mean, Nya did a great job with it, but the uh — the wires right here, you see? Those can get twisted up if you move around a lot, and that’ll create pressure on the nerves, and then you’ve got the gears here, and…”

Lloyd quickly loses track of Jay’s technical babble, nodding along like he understands instead. His brother’s stream of chatter is a nice sound against the rain in the background, warm and familiar, and Lloyd slowly relaxes further, his shoulders crying in relief as they lose their tension. The meds are kicking in now too, and the pain’s ebbed into something a lot easier to manage. Enough for Lloyd to start feeling guilty, anyways.

“I’m sorry if I woke you up,” he finally says, after Jay’s wound down from his explanation, ducking his head.

Jay waves him off. “I was already up, anyways,” he shrugs. “The storm woke me. They…they do that a lot.”

Lightning flashes, as if to echo his statement, and Lloyd notices the twitch that runs through Jay this time, how he almost seems to vibrate with the thunder that follows.

“Does it bother you?” he asks, a little hesitantly. “The storm?”

It feels like a silly question, because Jay can practically create storms, he thrives in them, Lloyd’s seem him straight-up catch a lightning bolt in his hand and chuck it like a baseball without breaking a sweat. But even though Lloyd's definitely not the ninja of lightning, it is the element he found easiest to wield, when he’d had all four, and he remembers the way the connection would buzz at him.

Jay bites his lip, his fingers tapping some vaguely familiar beat on the table as he fidgets, turning the question over in his head.

“It’s — I feel it under my skin, you know?” he finally says, bouncing a bit in agitation. “I mean, it’s not bad, but I can — I can hear the lightning outside, like it’s talking to me, and I can’t sleep through it. I normally can, I mean, but — but normally it’s not this loud.”

He trails off, frustrated as he glares out the window. “Everything’s been loud since the First Realm,” he mutters, beneath his breath.

“Oh,” Lloyd says, quietly. The guys have told them about the First Realm, sure, but like — not really. The same way Lloyd and Nya have told them about the Resistance, but not really. An outline of the events, sure. A plot-like summary of important details, as detached as possible, sure. But all the worst parts, the crushing grief and despair and the awful headaches from too little sleep and too many held-back tears, all that? No way.

So while Lloyd knows they went through heck in the First Realm, he doesn’t really know. But with the way Jay’s eyes are shadowed, the dark circles beneath them and the way he looks like he’s years older as he stares at the storm out the window right now, he can guess.

“That must’ve been tough,” he finally says, hesitantly. “Being stranded, and everything. I can’t imagine what I’d do if I was cut off from everything like that.”

Jay blows his breath out, his fingers trembling slightly where they lace together. “It wasn’t fun,” he says, a little distantly. “I…I was kind of a mess, at first. I think I scared the guys. I wish I hadn’t, but it was just — it was a lot.”

Lloyd’s not sure what to say to that, so he just squeezes Jay’s forearm with his good hand, and hopes it’s worth something.

Jay shakes his head, almost as if to himself, “I just wish I’d been useful.”

Lloyd blinks at that, taken aback — and pretty concerned — at the gaping insecurity in Jay’s voice. He knows Jay struggles with that, but to see it this raw—

It hurts.

“Kai says you helped build that dragon,” he says, nudging Jay’s side with his knee. “That plan wouldn’t have worked without you. And you drew up the actual plans, and kept them secret and everything. And I saw you, when you guys came back. You saved us, right in the nick of time. It sounded like you were pretty crucial to the whole thing, to me.”

Jay gives a huff of laughter, but some of the tension in his expression eases. “You’re just saying that. Buttering me up,” he shakes his head, knocking his fist against Lloyd’s leg.

“Am not,” Lloyd says, kneeing him back. “I’m serious. You’re all kinds of useful. I’d totally hire you, if you came to me with your ninja resumé.”

“Yeah, ‘cause job number one on it would be ‘green ninja babysitter’. You’d have no choice."

Lloyd sputters. “I’m not — you guys don’t babysit me.”

“I have a whole lot of evidence that proves otherwise,” Jay says, grinning. “The others would agree, too.”

“This is mutiny,” Lloyd glares. “The nerve, the utter disrespect. I’m your leader.”

Jay actually laughs at that, further proving Lloyd’s point that his whole team is awful. But it’s a genuine laugh, one that softens the lines of stress at the corners of Jay’s eyes, so Lloyd figures he can let it go and laugh a little himself.

This time. They’re gonna have to talk about the babysitting thing later.

“We really missed you guys,” Lloyd finally says as his laughter ebbs, his traitor voice cracking in the middle. “A-a lot. I’m really glad you’re back. Like, you have no idea.”

“I think we kinda do,” Jay breathes out on dying laughter. “We missed you too, you know. We couldn’t even check if you were alright, we had no idea what was happening. You guys were realms away.”

Lloyd swallows back the ‘but you were dead’. Jay doesn’t need that knowledge right now. Jay needs to be able to relax, and to get more than three hours of sleep for once.

“Well, we’re in the same one now,” he says, with a wry smile. “Hopefully we can stay that way, for a while.”

“Do not jinx us,” Jay points his finger at him, and Lloyd manages a grin that feels genuine this time, shrugging. He’s beyond pleased to find out that the action doesn’t hurt so much, only feeling the faint twinges of pain this time. Lloyd stifles a yawn instead of replying, and Jay fixes him with a look, jerking his head back toward the bedroom.

“If your arm’s better, you should get back to sleep.”

“Yeah, yeah,” Lloyd mutters, biting back a groan as he stands, wobbling a bit as his arm swings loosely. “That goes for you, too.”

“I’m not the one with designer bags for eyes,” Jay says, even though he clearly has dark circles worse than Lloyd. He pauses, eyeing Lloyd’s arm. “You really shouldn’t sleep with this on, you know,” he adds, tapping his wrist, nails clacking oddly on the metal.

Lloyd cringes. “I know,” he mutters. “I’m just — I don’t wanna have to put it on, if we…”

“If we’re attacked in the middle of the night?” Jay says drily, but there’s understanding in his voice. “Yeah, I get that. But hey, how about this: you sleep with it off for tonight, and if anyone comes in to kill you, I’ll take ‘em out.”

Lloyd raises an eyebrow. “Lightning blast to the face?”

“Lightning blast to the face,” Jay nods solemnly.

Lloyd shifts, arms wrapped around himself, his real fingers clenching anxiously at the juncture where his prosthetic meets his arm. It’s tempting, the idea of having the heavy weight off for the night. Really tempting.

But that also means taking it off, and that sounds…less than fun, especially after all the pain he’s already been in tonight.

“I’ll consider it,” Lloyd says, smiling weakly. “But I have full faith in you.”

Jay’s eyes are understanding as he nods, knocking his fist gently against Lloyd’s arm again. “Good. Now, bed. Practice starts back tomorrow, remember? You don’t wanna be dead tired for that.”

Lloyd’s heart sinks. Oh, no. He’d forgotten.

“Aw, man,” he moans. “This is gonna be a disaster.”

“Don’t say that,” Jay says, clearly trying to sound optimistic. “It’ll go fine. Wait and see.”

************************

It is, in fact, a disaster.

The first practice with the guys after everything reminds him a whole lot of his first time sparring with Nya down one arm, and that — well, sucks. That’s about as cheerfully as he can put it.

“Do you need a hand?” Lloyd looks up at the voice, shielding his eyes against the afternoon sun. Zane’s standing over him, looking slightly apologetic, his hand outstretched.

Lloyd takes the offered hand, pulling himself with a grunt of effort. “Yeah, a right one would be nice.”

Jay and Nya groan in unison. Zane just flicks his eyes skywards, his mouth curving up slightly as he hauls Lloyd the rest of the way to his feet. Lloyd wobbles a bit, caught off guard, and Zane steadies him, grabbing for his prosthetic before he can lose balance. Zane’s hand lingers a little too long around it, his eyes flashing in concentration where they rest on the metal fingers. Lloyd’s about to ask him what’s up — growing slightly defensive — when Zane lets go, blinking once. The look of furrowed concentration stays on his face even as he steps back, though, and Lloyd’s not sure if he likes that.

“Sorry, Lloyd,” Cole says, interrupting his train of thought as he steps forward, rubbing a hand across the back of his neck in guilt. “I didn’t think you’d — I shouldn’t have been hitting that hard.”

“Yeah, you shouldn’t have,” Kai snaps testily, his eyes flashing in the dangerous kind of protectiveness Lloyd’s used to seeing against people not in their family. He quickly intervenes, waving his hands.

“It’s fine, it’s fine, chill out,” he says, hastily. “I wasn’t paying attention, it was my fault. Besides, it’s not any worse than what Nya gave me the first time we sparred with, uh…the arm.”

Nya rolls her eyes. “You kept tripping everywhere. That’s not my fault.”

Lloyd goes a bit red, but he doesn’t argue back. He’s pretty sure Pixal has video footage that would invalidate any argument he’d have, anyways.

Kai looks between the two of them, then seems to lose some of the fire, shoulders sagging. “Just…be more careful,” he mutters. “Lloyd’s arm is still pretty new.”

Lloyd’s head swivels to Kai, his mouth half-open, incredulous. He begs Kai’s pardon, who, again, lost their arm here and who definitely didn’t? Who knows what they’re talking about, and who knows absolutely nothing—

“Yeah, no, for sure,” Cole nods back, like Lloyd isn’t even here. “I’ll let up on the heavier attacks, too.”

Lloyd snaps his mouth shut tightly. He wants to scream. They’re all acting like Lloyd is glass, like he’s fragile. And that’s not the problem. The problem isn’t his arm. The problem isn’t even that he’s not used to the prosthetic, because at this point he kinda is. (He’s getting there.) No, the problem is that the guys are all walking on eggshells around him, to the point where the hits they do throw at him are so sporadic it’s completely throwing Lloyd off. Like he’s being attacked by uncoordinated chickens with no heart in their attacks, or something.

It’s actually a pretty good strategy to keep in mind, he muses, for another time when the target isn’t him.

“Um, no, you won’t,” he says instead, biting his cheek to keep the edge out of his voice. “You’re going to actually attack me. You’re holding back so much right now you’re handicapping yourself worse than me without a metal arm.”

Cole looks taken aback. “I just sent you to the ground, bud,” he says. “Hard.”

“You only sent me to the ground because I wasn’t expecting you to hit like Jay,” Lloyd shoots back.

“Hey!”

“If that’s the tactic you wanna use, fine, but only if you’ve got a plan for when I blast you right back from the ground.”

Cole blinks. “Do your powers even work with the prosthetic?”

“I do have another arm,” Lloyd growls. He immediately feels bad, because he sounds angrier than he should be, but that subject’s touchy. He hasn’t tried to use his powers with the prosthetic yet, apart from the blinding blast of energy he’d given off when he’d first gotten them back, and he doesn’t want to find out if another use will blow his arm to pieces or not.

“It should work with it, anyways,” Nya assures them, though there’s a spark of uncertainty in her eyes. “Your powers are pretty intuitive. They protect you, so it wouldn’t make sense for them to hurt you like that.”

Lloyd doesn’t say how completely unfounded this is, because his powers tried to protect him during the fight with his father and they sure as heck hurt him then, but she does have…a bit of a point. And again — there’s like, the glaring fact that his arm did not explode when he went supernova on top of Borg Tower. And Lloyd’s control is way better these days, so in all honesty, it’ll probably be fine.

But on the off chance. Lloyd is trying to be more careful, lately.

Now the guys, though. The guys are taking careful to a completely ridiculous level.

“Maybe we should tone it down for today, just to be safe,” Kai says, exchanging looks with Cole. A vein somewhere in Lloyd’s forehead begins to throb. “We don’t want to take any risks.”

“Oh, yeah, like we weren’t taking plenty of risks while you guys were gone in the First Realm. Oh wait, we did, and we were just fine then,” Lloyd snaps.

He immediately regrets it, because Kai’s expression does this awful crumpling thing, and Cole’s eyes widen painfully. Jay just looks down, and Lloyd hates himself.

“I-I didn’t mean—” he stammers, grasping desperately for the words to apologize, when Zane lays a gentle hand on his shoulder, silencing him.

“How about I train with Lloyd one on one for a bit,” he says. The corners of his mouth quirk up, humorlessly. “I think cooling down might be in order.”

Lloyd feels his cheeks heat, but he ducks his head, nodding. Kai looks like he want to protest, but he shuts his mouth, nodding as well, and Lloyd’s relieved to see a kind of understanding in his eyes.

He hopes he does, Lloyd thinks to himself, as Zane leads them away from the others, to the other side of the yard they’re using for training. He hopes, that Kai and Jay and Cole know he isn’t actually trying to attack them for getting yanked into another realm instead of being crushed to death, because that is definitely not something he would ever complain about—

“So, how strong is your arm?”

Lloyd blinks rapidly, yanked back to the present. “My — what?”

Zane repeats the question, patiently. “Your arm, the prosthetic one. Do you know how strong it is?”

“Like…as in durability, or how hard can I hit with it?” Lloyd asks, flexing a metal wrist.

“Ah. That’s a good question,” Zane tilts his head. “Both, I suppose.”

“Um, pretty strong, I guess,” Lloyd winces, remembering the last time he’d tested how strong it was, and he’d sent the punching bag through the wall instead. “Most of the strength is in my forearm, ‘cause it’s just metal and gears there. It gets a little dicey where it connects, up here, but it can take the heavy hits.”

His father had the honor of testing that part out, he thinks bitterly.

Zane nods, his eyes calculating. “Good. Then show me a heavy hit.”

It takes a second for the question to register, but when it does, Lloyd blanches. “No,” he says, firmly. “No way.” He remembers how the punching bag crumpled beneath his metal fist. He remembers too well how his father, full power, had actually buckled under several of his hits. The idea of hitting one of the guys with that same force makes him sick.

“Ah,” Zane says, and there’s a spark in his eyes. “So now you want to start holding back.”

“This — this is different,” Lloyd grinds out, trying not to go red in embarrassment. “It’s one thing to hold back entirely, but my arm is — its different, Zane, it’s way stronger now, and I don’t wanna hurt you guys with it.”

“I’m not going to break, Lloyd,” Zane says, cooly.

Lloyd bites his lip. “Look, I’m serious, you don’t understan—”

The end of Lloyd’s sentence cuts off with a yelp as Zane sweeps his leg out from beneath him, sending him sprawling to the ground. He looks up at him, wounded, and Zane just tilts his head.

“You said you want us to stop holding back,” he says, challenging. “You want a real fight, so fight back. Hit me.”

That’s all the warning Lloyd gets before Zane sweeps another kick toward him, forcing Lloyd to roll out of the way, somersaulting backwards before springing back to his feet. He opens his mouth to protest, but Zane’s elbow is already whistling toward his head, followed by his fist, and Lloyd’s too busy blocking and dodging to get any word out edgewise.

He’s not going to hit him with it, Lloyd tells himself fiercely. He’s not, but — but Zane is actually attacking him now, with all the cool calculation and devastating accuracy Zane is really good at, and if Lloyd doesn’t launch a counterattack soon, Zane’s going to obliterate him in full view of everyone.

Through the buzz of adrenaline, Lloyd bites back a curse. He’s forgotten, for a crippling moment, how smart Zane is. The way he’s pressing on him is leaving his left arm for blocking, which means the only way he’s gonna get a decent hit in is with his right. So either Lloyd sucks it up and hits Zane with the metal arm already, or he’s going to eat dirt the rest of the day.

Darn it, Zane, Lloyd thinks heatedly, barely dodging the next barrage of hits, wincing as one clips his shoulder. He’s just gonna have to do it. They both asked for this—

Lloyd suddenly ducks, darting beneath Zane’s blow then squaring back, bringing his fist up and swinging hard — just to crash right into Zane’s own blocked fist with a loud, screeching clang of metal.

Lloyd blinks. The hit he’d just thrown wasn’t holding back — it was way harder than he should’ve thrown, actually — but Zane just slides a few feet back, barely flinching. He flexes his wrist, a grin curving up the edge of his mouth.

“You aren’t the only one with a metal arm, you know,” he says evenly, and oh. Oh. Lloyd stops dead, staring at him.

So Lloyd’s just an idiot. Here he is, freaking out about how different his arm is now, how no one gets it, and Zane’s been metal this whole entire time.

“I…” Lloyd trails off, staring at him wordlessly. He feels so stupid, a total sham of the leader he’s supposed to be. He’s overlooked the most obvious fact ever, to the point where he’s been severely misjudging Zane, and that’s…that’s bad. That’s very bad, if he’s calling himself leader here.

And that, Lloyd realizes, with an unpleasant jolt, is the real problem with all this. Not the guys, not the arm. It’s Lloyd, failing to lead them against Harumi, failing to lead them against his father, and failing to lead them now. No wonder they can’t take him seriously, when Lloyd can’t even give them the decency of doing the same.

“Oh,” he whispers.

“It’s difficult,” Zane says, quietly. “To see yourself as one way, then suddenly as another. Even if it’s just one limb. Adjusting can be…difficult.”

Lloyd ducks his head, swallowing. “I’m sorry.”

Zane makes a noise that could be a huff of laughter, if it wasn’t so exasperated. “You don’t need to apologize. That is not the point I’m trying to make.”

Lloyd stares at the ground, not meeting his eyes. Zane’s footsteps draw close, until he’s right in front of him.

“Lloyd.” Zane’s hand is gentle on his shoulder, and Lloyd slowly looks up at him, feeling very much like he’s nine years old again, and Zane is the older brother who knows infinitely more about the world than he ever will.

“We are more than just a team for you to lead,” he says, gently. “We’re your family, above all else. We may not have been here when you needed us, but we are here now, and we want to be. We trust you. We just want you to trust us back.”

“I do,” Lloyd says, fervently. “I do, Zane, and I didn’t mean to — I never blamed—” He cuts off, shaking his head and swallowing. “I wanted to be there, too,” he rasps. “I — we couldn’t be there for you guys, either. You were alone, too. It wasn’t fair. It wasn’t fair to any of us.”

“No,” Zane says, sounding very tired. “No, it wasn’t.”

Not for the first time, Lloyd wonders how heavily the guys edited their own story of their time apart, and how much of the darker stuff they decided to leave out. The hollow look in Zane’s eyes leaves his stomach sinking. Probably a lot.

“B-but we’re together now,” Lloyd finally speaks up, cringing at the waver in his voice. “And, um. I know I’ve been most of the problem, but — but I trust you guys. I trust you, so — could you show me how to use my arm?”

Zane looks at him, and Lloyd offers him a tentative smile. “Since you’re the resident expert, and all.”

Zane’s mouth quirks up in a grin of amusement, and Lloyd feels a happy flare of victory at the action.

“I wouldn’t call myself that,” he says, lightly. “But yes, I can help adjust your training. Provided, of course, you throw better hits. No offense intended, but that one was…pitiful, at best.”

Lloyd chokes on a laugh. “Okay, if that’s how it is. I’ll show you a real hit. Just don’t go crying to Cole when I wipe the floor with you.”

“I assure you,” and there’s an edge to Zane’s smile that promises Lloyd’s not leaving here without his fair share of bruises. “I have no intention of doing so.”

************************

Training with Zane helps even more than he’d thought it would. Not only does Lloyd start to learn how to better use his prosthetic to an advantage, the others pick up on it and start actually fighting Lloyd again, well-practiced moves and techniques that force him to fight back, and by the third week of practices they’ve all slid back into a steady routine, even if there is still the occasional hesitation when it comes to Lloyd’s right arm.

Except for Nya. She’s been sending him sprawling across the mat since day one, no problem, and even with her healing arm she’s never stopped threatening to do it again.

Lloyd’s beyond grateful, though — he’s starting to almost feel normal again, to feel a little like his old self, with his proper place on the team, and he finally, finally feels like he’s doing something right. So he’s got no right to complain whatsoever, when the increased training leaves his arm feeling so sore he may as well have gotten hit by a truck.

A throbbing ache shoots through his right wrist again, pulsing up through the bones of his arm. Lloyd’s fingers grasp on air, wavering once, twice before it clicks that there’s nothing there. A croaking laugh almost bubbles up in his throat. His arm is in agony and it’s not even there. There is no wrist there to hurt, he doesn’t even have his prosthetic on right now. So why—

Phantom pain, he reminds himself firmly, before clicking the prosthetic back into place, the motion slowly growing familiar. It’s just a ghost, like Morro. Lloyd survived him, he can survive this.

Besides, he doesn’t have time to be hallucinating an arm that’s not there. He’s gotta have his best face on right now, because this…this is going to take a lot out of him.

Lloyd stares at Kryptarium Prison with hollow eyes, trying to rid himself of the icy shiver that’s crawling up and down his spine. They’ve since fixed the damage to the walls, and he’s eternally grateful for that — but the stretch of stone that’s been recently repaired is obvious, and Lloyd can easily pick out exactly where he went bursting through when—

When Lloyd’s brain was an idiot, he scolds himself, as the shiver threatens to turn into a full-blown panic attack. Those memories need to go right back into the dark hole he’s shoved them in, where they can stay for the rest of his entire life.

Besides, the person he’s about to see is gonna bring back enough bad memories, as it is.

Lloyd swallows, forcing past the fear closing in around his throat as he finally starts walking again, his feet practically dragging toward the prison doors. His arm throbs in pain with every step, spreading to the aching twin points on the back of his right hand.

Which isn’t there, he reminds himself fiercely. There’s no hand to hurt, move past it, brain.

The doors slide open for him with a mechanical hiss, a chiming bell warning the guards of his entrance. Lloyd’s in full gi, hood pulled back, so no one stops him, the outermost guards just nodding to him as he passes. Lloyd barely manages a grimace of greeting for them, where he’d normally have at least something sincere. But it’s hard enough, trying to keep his expression impassive. Each step further into the prison feels like a step closer to his doom, and this is ridiculous because the only other time he’s felt this nervous walking up a set of stairs was the Overlord—

“Name, please?”

Lloyd blinks, abruptly realizing he’s already reached the check-in gate. He shakes his head, trying to reorient himself. Name, please, he thinks drily, as he looks up. Like this guard doesn’t know who he is, entirely decked out in green, it isn’t like he’s been on TV a whole lot in the last month—

Anyways.

“Lloyd Garmadon,” he says, hoping his voice doesn’t sound like a gasp for air. “I’d like to see my — um, Lord Garmadon. He should be in heavy lockdown.”

Private lockdown, somewhere dark and deep, probably, Lloyd thinks. He tells himself he doesn’t feel anything at that. His father probably likes it, anyways, being alone and in the dark. That’s all it seems he’d even wanted, except for maybe her—

Lloyd thrusts the hot flash of emotion down deep along with the rest of that thought, and tries to focus on the guard’s reply.

“—terribly sorry, but I can’t let you in.”

Lloyd’s brain stutters to a halt. “Sorry, could you repeat that?” he frowns, taken aback. He doesn’t like to throw his weight around, but Lloyd’s pretty sure that the ninja are supposed to have clearance to the entire prison. Especially after everything that’s happened, he and Nya practically have clearance to the entire city at this point.

“Your name’s been blacklisted,” the guard chews on the edge of his lip nervously. “Y-you aren’t allowed access to the prisoner in question.”

Lloyd blinks rapidly. “What?”

The guard is visibly sweating now. “The, uh, the records say I can’t let you in. To see him. Not without a signature.”

Lloyd’s stomach does a weird swooping thing, like he’s missed a step on the stairs. If he needs a signature, then someone had to go out of their way to block him — specifically him — from seeing Garmadon. Someone who the warden apparently decided had the right to make decisions for Lloyd.

“Who’s signature,” Lloyd grits out, fury barely held back.

The poor guard — because he really doesn’t deserve this, but oh, Lloyd is angry — shrinks even smaller in his seat, swallowing.

“Wu,” he finally says, stammering. “Your uncle, he — I’m sorry, but he technically has the right…”

Lloyd steps back, metal creaking as his fist forms. “Thank you,” he clips out tightly, then spins in place, hoping his eyes haven’t gone supernova yet.

No, he’s saving that for his uncle.

************************

“How could you do that.”

Sensei Wu barely stirs, visibly unaffected by the way Lloyd’s just slammed his door open, and is currently fuming in the doorway like a very angry part-Oni crime of nature.

“It was, at the moment, the correct course of action to take.” He sips evenly at his tea, not even attempting to pretend he doesn’t know exactly what Lloyd’s talking about.

Lloyd sees red. “You had no right.”

Sensei Wu finally looks at him, sighing wearily. “I’m your family, Lloyd. I have every right—”

“Not this one!”

Sensei’s eyes are sympathetic, but unrelenting. “Your mother told me what happened, Lloyd. What you did.”

Lloyd almost swallows his tongue at the shock of surprise, but it quickly mixes with a hot flare of betrayal in his chest. It’s his arm, it’s his story to tell.

“Cool.” The words scrape through his teeth. “That doesn’t mean you can block me from seeing him!”

“Your head isn’t in the right place to see him, Lloyd. Neither is your heart. I believe you know this, too.”

“My head—” Lloyd trips over his words in anger. “My head is fine! So’s my heart, thanks.”

Sensei Wu’s eyes narrow. “You’ve never been the best of liars, nephew.”

Lloyd is going to smash his stupid teapot. “Then maybe your perception is still off from the First Realm, uncle.”

A part of Lloyd’s soul dies at the sentence, because it’s the most dangerously rude thing he’s said to his uncle since he was like, eight. But he swallows it back, because he has a bad feeling it’s not going to be the worst thing he says in this conversation.

His uncle’s lips press tightly together, and Lloyd feels more than sees the crackle of anger in his eyes as the atmosphere heats, no longer a conversation between sensei and student. It’s a family conversation, now. “I hardly need much perception to see how traumatized you are from recent events. It’s not difficult to miss.”

“Traumatized—” Lloyd sputters, his own eyes narrowing. “You know what, fine, so what? It’s not like I haven’t been — been traumatized, or whatever, before,” he snaps. “Morro put my head pretty out of place, and you were fine with that.”

Sensei Wu’s eyes flash. “I was not ‘fine’ with that. I was nowhere near fine with that, but at that time you were equipped to deal with it. And you were not forcing yourself to face Morro on some shred of false hope you know will only hurt.”

Lloyd full-body flinches back at that last part. But it’s not that — it’s not because —

See, Lloyd knows. He’s had it physically beaten into him multiple times, that he’s not the father he knew. He knows that he’s not really him, that he will never be him, that he will never regain the father he lost no matter how much this one looks like him.

But — but Lloyd’s heart can only take so much at once, and he’s dangerously close to reaching a point where nothing will repair that kind of break. He can take a hundred prison walls and his arm cut off fifty times in a row, but that is something he’d rather die than have to face right now.

And to hear the phrase false hope coming from the one person he’d hoped would understand nearly breaks Lloyd on the spot.

So he gets angry instead.

“You taught me not to give in to fear,” his voice is icy, words measured and slow. “You taught me not to put off until tomorrow what I can deal with today, and you wanted me to make my own decisions.”

“Yet I do not recall teaching you to disregard any and all concerns for your wellbeing,” his uncle replies, his voice just as glacial. “Nor do I remember teaching you to argue back against my orders.”

“You made me master!” Lloyd nearly shouts back, barely restraining himself. “You told me to start giving the orders, how am I supposed to do that if you don’t trust me? You can’t keep doing this to me, either you trust me or you don’t!”

“I do trust you, but I will not lose another member of my family because they believe they’re stronger than they are!” Uncle Wu snaps, his eyes flashing, and for a beat Lloyd can almost see the Oni in his blood, as well. “I’ve forced you to face your father too many times, Lloyd. I will not let him continue to hurt you.”

“He isn’t hurting me!” Lloyd bursts out, despite knowing those words are a stone-cold lie. But— “He’s already hurt me, I almost died, what worse can he do from a prison cell?”

“More than you will acknowledge!” his uncle barks back. He exhales tightly, eyes closing briefly before re-opening. “Lloyd, I understand that you are upset with my decision. But in time, you will see that this was the right one. Your perception is clouded to the point where you can no longer see yourself properly, and a leader who continues to put themselves further into that state is not fit to be leader.”

Lloyd’s teeth snap together with an audible clack, and his fists tighten, fingernails biting into his palms and metal fingers creaking. “You’ve been gone for months,” he grinds out. “For a year, and I led just fine that whole time. You can’t just come back now and say I’m — I’m a screwup—”

“That is not what I—”

“And you keep talking about decisions, when you didn’t even ask me before—”

“Lloyd—”

“—going behind my back is way out of line and you know it!”

“This is not—”

“And my perception is fine, I do see myself—”

“Lloyd, I said—”

“—and I’m fine, Uncle Wu, I swear, I can face him I’m fine—”

“That is enough, Lloyd!”

Lloyd flinches back as his uncle’s voice cracks out, angrier than he’s heard it. Wu’s knuckles turn white around his cup handle, and his eyes glint with the steel of his glare. “This is my decision, and I will not move from it until you can prove that you are ready.”

Until he can prove he’s ready. Like Lloyd hasn’t had to prove again and again—

Like he doesn’t believe in Lloyd either when he was the one—

Like Lloyd wasn’t willing to lose an arm not to fail him—

Something dangerous in Lloyd snaps.

“You’re just as bad as him,” he spits, venomous like a snake. “You’re all the same, you think you know what’s best for me and you never care how I feel! You don’t even care about me, you just care about the stupid Green Ninja and your stupid prophecies and I’m sick of it, I’m so sick of being your Green Ninja, I hate it!”

Sensei Wu goes stark white. His fingers tremble and his teacup drops to the table, his eyes painfully wide. “Lloyd,” he whispers, weakly. “That’s not—”

“Fine,” Lloyd snaps over him, blinking back angry tears. “Fine, I’ll stay away from him. I’ll stay away from all of you. I hate being part of this family anyways.”

He turns on heel before he can look at his uncle a second longer, before the tears can start to fall and he has the chance to say anything else. There’s a high-pitched buzzing in his ears as he storms back down the hall, the lightbulbs above him sparking wildly in his wake before shorting out, exploding into tiny bits of glass that rain over the floor.

Lloyd darts past them, hurrying his footsteps as he tries to escape the apartment with the rest of the lights unscathed. Shoving open the stairwell door, Lloyd makes a break for the rooftop, where he at least knows it’ll be quiet, and there won’t be as many lights for him to burst, and his uncle can’t—

Lloyd pushes the rooftop door open and stumbles out with a heaving gasp, drawing air in desperately as if that’ll ground him. His heart is racing way too fast, way too angry, and his power is zinging all over his skin like a swarm of angry bees. He’s almost dizzy with how angry he is — except that’s not right, he’s not just angry, there’s a whole wave of emotion coming in from somewhere that’s threatening to — to drown him, and this is why Lloyd should always keep things bottled back where they belong—

A transformer across the street blows, and Lloyd jumps in alarm as it explodes, showering sparks down toward the street below. Lloyd blinks past the blurring tears, his stomach dropping. There’s a flickering of lights before the apartment complex below it goes dark, power lost as startled cries sound from the open windows. The power lines around him start thrumming dangerously, reaching a higher-pitched whine that prefaces bursting. Lloyd’s throat closes over in panic. Oh, no. He didn’t think — he can't be this bad. He doesn’t lose control like this, he — he needs to stop, right now, or the entire city’s going to lose power.

He clenches his fists again, trying to reign the power in, to pull it back to him, but it only sputters more wildly out of control. Lloyd’s hands are trembling now, shaking worse than before, and in a desperate attempt for it to stop he crumples to the rooftop, pulls his knees up to his chest and wraps his arms around them, burying his head in the crook of his flesh elbow and squeezing tight, metal digging painfully into his leg as he draws in tighter and tighter — like he can crush himself down into something small enough that he won’t feel so much anymore, and his power will stop, stop—

But it’s like he’s back in the prison, his power sparking wildly out of control and not listening to him. Just like her. Like his father, like his uncle, nothing he’s gotten from his family ever listens to him when it matters, and why should they. Why will they ever, when all Lloyd’s ever going to be is a weapon, a scribbled line in a prophecy or a stepping stone for power—

It’s his power. His power, and he can’t even get it to listen to him.

Lloyd listens to the power lines around him explode and lets his sweatshirt sleeve soak up the tears.

Lying to himself can only get him so far. He’s never going to be able to prove he’s ready to face his father.

Not when he doesn’t even know if he can.

#lego ninjago #ninjago #lloyd garmadon #nya smith #kai smith #jay walker #zane julien #cole brookstone #the focus is on jay and zane tho #for this part ahaHA i'm not kidding u guys its so long #anyways a huge thanks to everyone who requested more!!#u sadists #and special thanks to ninjawhoa for making sure i don't totally butcher lloyd's arm #i love u #my fic

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