#I’m not an an/ti shipper I just think people who engage in that scene need to touch grass

[djsherriff]

Ignoring the age gap issues, I generally don’t think Finn and Simon would have a good romantic relationship but it’d be interesting if there was an attempt

[kikiscastleinthesky]

THE SOKKASM ZUTARA

I’ve seen a lot of tumblr blogs that ship zutara and I decided that is time for me to open mine too. So, yes, I’m a zutara shipper. And for the time being, my posts are going to be dedicated principally to analyze the ships in ATLA. 

Disclaimer alert:  I’m not forcing anyone to ship zutara. And I won’t accept hate because I (and many others) may have a different opinion, If you are one of those persons I invite you to leave, don’t waste my time and yours, because I’m not even going to reply. Everyone has the right to ship whatever they like and want, without been mocked, harrassed and humiliated. 

Well... now that everything is settled: 3...2...1 go!

I’m starting with this small analysis, because every zutara shipper has been attacked on why zutara and zutara is horrible yada yada but, this ocassion I’m gonna use all the attacks we get and defend it. 

I. Zutara is way the worst toxic relationship:

You call Zuko the abuser, the toxic and the bad tempered? Then you     didn’t get a clue of his redemption arc.

You call zutara toxic for:

a)     giving your mother’s closure and final acceptance into the group?

b)     saving each other’s life?

c)     being the “leading co-parenting” of the group?

d)     support you when you’re about to beg for his uncle forgiveness?

II. The cave scene didn’t mean anything, and just think about it, they would never ever get along well:•      

  Of course, I misunderstood Zuko confessing his own grief, probably he just hates her.

When Katara opens to her mother sorrow like she never did with anyone was like no big deal.

 That part when she offers to heal his scar with SACRED water was totally illogical.

And being the first person who he let touch his scar really said to me that they were absolutely toxic.

 Yes, he betrayed her initial trust. And it hurt, but guess who betrayed worst? The man who for three years was his father. But nope, Iroh, should never forgive Zuko, for what he did. (Right? Katara was betrayed and she should bever have interest in him, so Iroh would never forgive his abuser, right?)

III. Zutara is about getting in love with your abuser:

The abuser love? When did Zuko abused Katara? When did he forced to do something she didn’t want? Did he ever physically abused her or sexually assaulted her? Even if he tied her to a tree, he never humiliated her, he never hurt her or overpass against her. Or are you trying to make up his whole plot to eliminate all his attacks towards team avatar only rest in the female character? (Have you forgot how he betrayed his uncle? Or even himself?)

IV. Zutara is an age gap, it would be underage thing. “You don’t like Aang because he is a child and still pair Zuko, being a minor.” You want to hypersexualize two kids (Aang and Katara) into having sexual interest.

Katara would have been dating an underage guy too. She would have been 18 and Aang 16. I know! Age gap only matter when the man’s older. Both Katara and Zuko had gone through puberty, and both were in adolescence, both shared the same maturity level. Yes dude, there a huge difference in being a CHILD and being a TEENAGER, yes, still minor, But with puberty hit already.

Actually, I still believe even being 11-12 you can get like a… spark… a hint. Even if its not a relationship whatsoever, and not having sexual interest of any kind. If you really want to see what closest we get to a “real” attraction and potential between kiddos that age, you get S1Mike and Eleven (stranger things) / you get Chihiro and Haku (Spirited away) / you get Pazu and Sheeta. (The castle in the sky) –Wooo, that really changes things right?

But yet there are people that believe shipping zutara is “pedophile” I thought in seriously not replying to this stupidities but, here I am, dismantling their theories.

So, this is real life. An adult person trying to sleep with a prepubescent kid. So… there is no support on this. Because a ship is about two fictional characters in a fictional story.

What about fictional pedophilia? Well, we can change that: Fictional pedophilia is a psychosexual disorder when you ship an adult fictional character (+18) to have a sexual interest in a fictional prepubescent child (-12) and / or attempt to engage both characters in sexual acts.

So step one… are either Zuko or Katara either an adult or prepubescent child? As you can see in the image at the right, both have gone through puberty. Step two, are you trying to a couple of minors to get sexually involved? No, this is a love story, not porn. And before you yell at me for the porn zutara comics/fics on the web, I guess you should see the porn Kataang /fics comics on the web too.

But I don’t hate any ship. So, technically, neither Kataang, nor Sukka, nor Yukka, nor Jetara, nor Maiko is pedophilia.

Ok, yeah yeah its not pedo, but is statutory rape, so yet it’s illegal.

Oh yes, if we state that 18 is the age where you are considered an adult (at least in my country) both are minors, your term is partially correct. But guess what would be statutory rape too?

Sukka (15) and Maiko (16-17), both implied to have sex relationships and canon during the series.

The episode "The Southern Raiders" became (in)famous among the fandom for what is a truly epic instance of this trope. Zuko bumps into a very flustered Suki on the way to Sokka's tent, and she hurriedly excuses herself. He walks into Sokka's tent to ask him a question and finds him pants-less and surrounded by flowers and candles. He even greets Zuko with a suggestive "Well helloooo..." before he realizes who itis. After a short talk, he rushes Zuko out and sticks his head out to call for Suki. And if there was any doubt, Sokka is shown the next morning fiddling with a flower necklace for no apparent reason... except to indicate that maybe Suki had been “deflowered”.

And yet, if Kataang had sex, it would be statutory sex at some point too: 16 and 18 -Conclusions: Statutory sex takes all ships equally.

V. Poor Aang he would be devastated.

Kid, he’s 12, in the comics he’s 13-14. Or what? Haven’t you guys had a broken heart ever? Your high school sweetie? Or Aang’s so frail to not be able to find love? To close himself for a better opportunity? Seeking your own happiness in not selfish. What is selfish is seeking your own happiness at the other expenses.

And even that, we all know what would Aang do if Katara starts a relationship with Zuko. (Even if it wasn’t Zuko, I highly doubt he would like Katara dating someone else) He would go on avatar rampage. That is NOT healthy, that is NOT romantic. That is extremely possessive and selfish to do. It’s psychotic. Because Aang cares more about himself than Katara’s feelings, even if she would be happier without him.

VI. Zutara is all about sex interest.

Well once more you mistake chemistry with sexual needs. Wanting me to sleep with my husband means I only use him for sex relief? If I find myself sexually attracted to anyone probably means I just want to sleep with that person and nothing else.

VII. A hug is all zutarians have to acknowledge zutara:

We have a complete extended analysis in all the small details, but we like to use that forgiveness hug because in that hug you have more potential that all the kataang scenes all together. We have thousands of complete analyses, pages dedicated exclusively zutara. 

VIII. Katara “fell in love with Aang” and it’s not one sided.

Uh... Nope, just because two persons are good friends it doesn’t mean they are a good couple. Yes, the way the both of them interact is absolutely beautiful, But not romantically.

Do we see Katara’s view on romantically being drawn towards Aang? Yes, we see it, and yes, unfortunately, is one sided.

How Kataangers complete this:

·       The fortune-teller: I didn’t see like “Wow omg the avatar is going to be my future husband!” But… was like “uh… really?… well, I guess it’s him” Zutarians and Aunt Wu are the base for many backs up theories. ;) Aang is not the only powerful bender you know? And actually, that episode is way trying too hard to demonstrate the crush Meng has for Aang and Aang has to Katara. How is even healthy to accept that sometimes persons don’t like you back and it’s not the end of the world.

·       The cave scene: I forgot that Katara is telling him to be her boyfriend and they will live happily ever after. And really, it all gets us to a real Oma and Shu theory. Not to mention that they were “forced” to kiss because their kids innocence believed if they kissed, they wouldn’t die, and that Aang messed up things as well. But if you see it beneath, if she was truly interested, she would have told Aang: “wow omg we kissed, ok. let’s give him a clue…” nothing, she goes back in treating him same as always.

·       The headband dance: Well that’s a fair point yes. Actually, I felt something different…unfortunately Katara later had to tell him not to kiss her.

IX. Zutara is because you projected on Katara and had a crush on Zuko, because Katara and Zuko were your favourite characters and because is the bad boy style romance.

My crush was Jet <3, and zutara was the most logical endgame for girls. Ask any girl, ANY 14 yo who would like to date: A high school, nice and handsome guy or a 7th grader that had potential to be her best friend. (See the logic) 

And nope is not like “Insert fav characters of the opposite sex to ship them” You need to see real development.

I don’t know why they stereotype Zuko as the “bad boy” – relationship archetype. Zuko is never seen to be the classic fuck boy who treats girls like shit and suddenly there comes a lady to change him. Maybe he is a “bad boy” (confused though) in S1 and S2, but his redemption arc is literally the answer of why he is not “bad boy” anymore.

If Katara was truly and really romantically interested then she wouldn’t have friendzoned Aang. Once? Nope 4 times. And also… are we forgetting kind of imagery…

Friendzoned  

 When Aang fixes her a small necklace with the fishing  thread.

 When he kissed her at the invasion. She didn’t  reciprocate it. (I’m not even mentioning the mommy proud speech)

 When he wanted to talk about the kiss in the western  air temple (Comic love is a battlefield)

 When he kissed her at the play and she had to told  him to back off.

 Strange imagery

 She was June Pippinpaddleopsokopolis (Aang’s  granddaughter)

When Aang got shot, she held his body in her arms in  the exact way Mary held Jesus in Pieta’s sculpture.

 She was Sapphire Fire. (Aang’s pregnant mother)

After they got married, in the book legacy, she said  she enjoyed most seeing Aang becoming a man. (Honestly ladies if I got a BF  the least I want is seeing how the kid transforms into a man)

I’m looking forward to watch you grow into manhood  as I did to your father (Katara’s letter to Tenzin)

 I’m really  trying to deny Oedipus complex here.

Still hard for me to track Katara’s love interest for little Aang since all we see is more a relationship mom/sister or Harry/Hermione. I have heard rumours that Bryke wanted to give the ship “mystery” and “expectation” but I think they really messed up, I didn’t see expectation or mystery, I saw a child insisting to a girl that didn’t reciprocate. It wasn’t even like she didn’t have much of a chance, because her love interests:

Was killed by Long Feng

Gave him a hideous mustache and disappeared him after Azula’s attack in the western air temple.

Forced to be attached to a toxic relationship.

Apart that all those points I’ve mentioned, Kataang is not a relationship for me. Staying in a formal relationship with the first person they met of the opposite sex at 14 -12 (guys not even Disney does that, jeez not even studio Ghibli) and not having any chance to experience any other relationship. Never experiencing a broken heart, or someone better. I think that it gives the wrong idea, telling guys that no matter how long they are placed in friendzone, eventually the girl will fall for them. They just have to keep insisting.

You could say, but what a hypocrite! Snow White was 14 years old when she went to live with that prince! Many princesses are 16! And not to mention that many men were the first they met! Like Aurora, Rapunzel, and Cinderella. Well, you are right at one point. But ... the interaction of these characters changes radically, mainly because they never "give cute kisses" to their future husbands, nor do they treat them like their brothers or their children and ... the men were never friendzoned, except for Naveen at the beginning. You see the real attraction of teenage girls with an older boy. And I'm not saying that they should never be friends or support each other. Mulan and Chang were allies, friends, they supported each other, they saved their lives. But at no time was there the kind of interaction Katara and Aang had.

If Kataang was to be endgame, we would see Katara’s reaction to Jet, totally different, THAT kind of reaction was what I was waiting. (That kind of reaction is what every princess do, at least one time)

The same chemistry we saw in Yukka / Sukka. Honestly, I saw more chemistry between Haru and Katara.

Or at least give us some character development like: Aang, I know my feelings where not as you wanted but now I decided I want to be with you because (list everything here except he being the avatar), I really like you, perhaps we can give it a shot. Or like several things that could clue us that she is interested (come on people, two persons can kiss/hug/ have sex and that doesn’t imply they will be together in a formal relationship) But all we got was: Oh, right, he’s the avatar... suddenly I fell for him and I’m gonna kiss him fully in the mouth and that’s how I’ll tell him and that all my confusion has magically disappeared.

X. I’ve never saw that kind of spark between them. Again, it was “Just a hug”

Yes! That’s initially the whole point of it, a friendship hug, the truth of why we don’t need silly blushes. Because that forgiveness hug shows their initial relationship, they are friends! All their love needs to come first from a truthful friendship, by the contrary of calling the “immediate falling” like Aang did for Katara, it shows us that friendship love can evolve into something more beautiful, and that’s why we like the ship, because all zutara shippers know Zuko and Katara wouldn’t fall in love like that all of the sudden, they have to create the romantic relationship, and that’s what we portray in the fics.

What makes Zutara exceptional is that he, sees her, he hears her, he listens what she had to do, at anytime he forced her to do something she didn’t. And before a “teenager adolescence ship” he sees her as a human, with feelings with own ideals and goals.

And there is a complete and extremely well based analysis in: The crossroads of destiny + The southern raiders + The lighting saving.

XI. The comics show us how toxic they really where.

Their interaction in the comics was something I like to call: destroying a character. Not only Katara, who turned to be that awesome badass to the submissive girlfriend. From how I see it in the series to the comics there’s all I have to say: That’s not my girl.

XII. How Katara could be queen of a country that almost aniquilates her tribe and killed her mother? It would be a betrayal.

I think this argument is out. Not valid. Is like saying a Jew can’t date a German because of the holocaust. (German doesn’t mean nazi, just as Zuko, who was from the Fire Nation and didn’t order Katara’s mother assassination, and not every citizen of the fire nation means a ruthless killer). Is like saying that a Japanese can’t date a us citizen because of the bombs in WW2. And even if we see it “political”, is like… an aphrodescendant can’t rule a country that is racist, then Mr. Obama would have never reached the presidency.

Two persons can unify them, because they can demonstrate that being from different country that initally has not good terms can reach peace. The union between those countries represents the power of maturity, of overcoming adversities and the power of forgiveness. *Our lands now connected by love* And I want her to be queen, I want her to rule, I want her in charge, I want her in power. Imagine all the potential she could have (politics, business, negotiations, rebuilding, restoration, education, public health!! ***faints***) Not only for the fire Nation but for the whole world! Imagine that once Zuko abdicated they left to the south pole and she opened a fighting school and a healing school of her own (like master Pakku, but now her students are given a medical license that acknowledges them as professional healers) And this is just an idea. Like these ideas are hundreds. It would have been the perfect feminist role model!

XIII. Since the beginning, Katara was always interested in Aang and she always supported him and was for him when he needed her. That’s proof they were meant to each other.

If a girl expresses faith in your abilities, she loves you, she hugs you, and she supports you clearly she’s completely into you. Because obviously female best friends don’t exist.

[kirbyspits]

Am i the only one that wasn't that much of a Korrasami fan? Pretty much I always thought Korra being with Mako made much more sense

Nope! Makorra is my favorite ship of all time (Zutara is my second-fav)! There’s also a lot of fans who ship them as platonic soulmates, while shipping Korrasami romantically. I don't engage that much with the Korrasami tags, but I’ll check in every now and then for pretty art. I love Asami, but she's too underwritten for me to be invested in her relationships. Korra's character also changed too much for me to want to continue her story in comic form (my no-nonsense, chin-grabbing, hot-headed teen is gone 😭). Now that I'm back in the fandom, I'm a bit more open to reading the comics, but Book 4 pretty much wraps up everything I was invested in. 

Sadly, it looks like all the avid Makorra artists/writers on Tumblr left the fandom since things got very toxic when the season finale first aired. It was particularly hurtful to have Bryan place any confusion, surprise, and criticism back on the viewer by saying they weren't open-minded enough:

If it seems out of the blue to you, I think a second viewing of the last two seasons would show that perhaps you were looking at it only through a hetero lens.

- From Bryan K’s post about Korrasami being cannon

That statement ironically includes any LGBT+ fans who questioned the ending.

Bryke did the bare minimum with downplaying Mako's feelings/reducing his screen time and developing Asami as one of the most important people in Korra’s life. Bryan’s statement becomes particularly frustrating when rewatching TLOK and trying to have an open mind, but all you get are musical cues or closeups of Mako. At some point, you have to accept there’s either something wrong with you as the viewer for not seeing Korrasami coming or deeming Bryke bad writers. I deem them bad writers.* Bryke at least acknowledged they didn’t plan as well as they could have.

As a writer, I'm disappointed Bryke didn't develop a stronger bond between Korra and Asami. I needed way more scenes showing how close the girls became to be satisfied as an unbiased viewer. The season finales for Books 3 & 4 handled this well, but Mako had episode after episode after episode with strong emotional ties to Korra. Their friendship, which seemed to be on a path of rekindling their relationship, easily overshadows Asami’s growing bond with Korra. If you like Mako, it’s impossible to ignore his interactions with Korra. 

As a Makorra shipper, I'm obviously happy and wouldn't want it any other way!

*it’s not just because of Book 4. Book 3 is probably the only season that was well written. Book 1 is my favorite, but there are many flaws, especially with the romance that I happily ignore.

[jyndor]

the tied to a tree scene was funny for me because that's where I realized "OH. I bet people ship them. EW." and I still see that scene as not even remotely friendly, much less romantic, but I just love the GROWTH! zuko needs the redemption arc before he can be with katara. and then I ship them.

a million percent correct take, let me hyper fixate on this shit lol.

so I started watching in book 2, so I was already aware of a bit of the Growth that had taken place when I saw that scene, but it was still... not a shippy moment for me, you know? I mean bdsm isn’t my thing but that scene is not comparable to bdsm which I believe requires consent and communication, none of which is what we see in that scene, and also blegh they’re children LMAO like they’re kids. I feel gross just making that point. but I think that scene is where a lot of the grosser zutara fic comes from, and it just... warms my little queer heart to not see that shit anymore. like I’m sure it is still being written, but people do learn and unlearn, and that is evident in the most popular fanfic sub genres right now not being slave fic or captivity fic (eurghhhh).

people can and should criticize that shit. I am not the kind of person who is cool with uncritically engaging with media, I can’t do it. and that shouldn’t shock any of my followers lmao. but also, that isn’t the whole of zutara; in fact it’s barely a part of it at this point. and it should only be a part of their personal history insofar as he did that to her and then he learned to be better lmao. just like anything he did to aang or sokka or toph, or anyone!

anon, you’re right. part of the reason I love zutara is because of the GROWTH! you’re a million percent correct, zero percent wrong. because zuko works to earn katara’s forgiveness since he recognizes that while he was not directly responsible for the trauma of losing her mother at a young age to the cruelty of the fire lord (a trauma he shares, albeit differently) he IS directly responsible for betraying her trust in the catacombs of change and empathy. he knows that. and I don’t think him being frustrating that she won’t forgive him means that he feels entitled to her forgiveness, he just wants their relationship to be better. like who among us burst from the womb being emotionally mature? not I.

katara is not just willing to forgive people who have both benefited from and also been marginalized by fire nation imperialism - she is pretty quick to do so. like, this might be an effect of white americans writing an indigenous girl’s story in the first place, but she is able to take an intersectional view on oppression - that once it becomes clear that zuko is a victim to fire nation imperialism, perhaps even moreso than he is a benefactor of it, she is like not just willing to forgive him, but actively BONDS with him, despite of their antagonistic history.

katara is not mad at him in book 3 because of how he behaved prior to the crystal catacombs, or because he is fire nation. if she was, she wouldn’t have gone all painted lady for a town of people who have KIND OF benefited from what their government did to her people. the townspeople of jang hui are a pretty decent representation of like, poor people in west virginia for instance. not to say they aren’t capable of horrific racism, but if they have benefited from american empire it is... not very much. they are victims of industry and capitalism, and oh boy I have gone on a tangent LMAO let me get back to the point.

zuko hurt katara PERSONALLY. he betrayed her trust which was fully given because of their shared trauma at the hands of the fire nation. katara wanted zuko to be better than he had been because she could tell that he wanted to be better. but he wasn’t ready - he still wanted his father’s acceptance more than anything. and sometimes people aren’t ready to change, and what zuko and katara teach us that it’s not the onus of forgiveness is not on the wronged party, that “I’m sorry” isn’t always enough. and that when we hurt people, we need to actually do the work to be better, and if we do that, the person whose forgiveness we want might actually see reason to forgive.

and zuko recognizes this by the time he joins up with the gaang - he is finally ready to be better, not just because he knows that fire nation supremacy is bullshit, but because he recognizes that what his father can give him is not worth losing who he truly is.

and we know that when he tells ozai to eat shit, he’s finally ready, which is why that moment is SO GOOD. but the gaang doesn’t know that, and none of them is as emotionally invested in zuko as katara is. I imagine that she feels immense guilt about nearly “wasting” the spirit oasis water on his scar right before she needed to use it to save aang because of zuko’s betrayal of her (and iroh but). part of her anger at zuko imo is anger at herself for trusting him so quickly, without him earning her trust. she was the first to trust him, so she had to be the last to forgive him.

I think that applies whether you ship zutara or you think she takes the place of azula as his sister. none of what I just said is inherently shippy. to me the best zutara fic is about what happens AFTER the show, who they can be to each other when they are adults, who have learned more about what they want in life. especially katara. but the backbone of zutara to me is not the dark or sexy whatever fuckin bullshit bryke thinks it is, but the forgiveness and redemption and personal growth that they both experience with each other.

zuko is a highly empathetic person who cares about what she thinks and listens to her. and I get that aang is also highly empathetic. and I don’t want to go down the anti-kataang road because I’ve said what I think about kataang, and I don’t think zutara has to be to the exclusion of kataang existing at some point. this goes for maiko as well, although lol mai is a lesbian mailee forever ANYWAY

when I was sixteen and furious at the ending of atla, I didn’t feel that way. now that I am nearing thirty, it is hilarious to think that people don’t love multiple people during their journeys. that is also GROWTH. finding out what you want from partners. it’s natural for someone to love a partner and then fall out of love, or demand something else that their partner can’t give. or doesn’t want.

it’s the growth that does it for me. and I think people who don’t know zutara fandom might not get that because they don’t read our fic, they don’t see our discourse, and they’re allowed to feel that way, they are allowed to not interact with our shit. idk I’m proud of the zutara fandom for its growth tbh. no fandom is free of racism (fandoms are people) but we have done better, and it shows. we try not to get into it with kataang shippers now, which is a lot better than what it used to be. like I don’t see the ship wars anymore, I know they are raging but I’m beyond that shit.

growth!

[magicofthepen]

Hmm trying to articulate my thoughts on the unpopular opinions/shipping/content creation discussion...not sure if I’m going to explain this well but going to give it a try? (Putting this under a cut because it got long — the tl;dr is that I sympathize with a lot of different frustrations I’m hearing and I’m trying to reconcile them because I don’t think they’re mutually exclusive.) 

I do want to support and cheer on the content creators who have put a lot of work into what they do because yeah, it’s not easy to make things! It’s super cool that people are creating fan content for a show that they care about, and I agree that everyone’s going to latch onto what they latch onto in a given piece of media and make content for the ships and characters that makes them happy and that’s great! (And that also basically sums up my own fandom experience.) Making stuff that’s popular is not a problem, and demanding more/different content from people (if that’s happening) is not cool. 

At the same time, I want everyone who likes the Gallifrey audios and wants to create content to feel like they have a space to do so, and they will be welcomed and supported too! I get the argument of “if you want something, do it yourself” (especially in response to people who are putting pressure on content creators — which again, not cool). And hey, that was my whole internal monologue when I was motivating myself to get back into writing fic. But talking yourself into the mindset of “it doesn’t matter if anyone else likes or engages with the thing I’m making, this is for me” is hard too, and I can sympathize with people who want to “do it themself” in theory but don’t want to deal with the discouragement of what they make not getting attention because it’s not about the most popular ship or character or character interpretation. 

Also to be clear, this isn’t really about me (there are a lot of popular ships and interpretations and things that I enjoy). But for example, I do think about people who maybe like the audios but don’t like the idea of any of the relationships being romantic — I can imagine how someone like that might feel discouraged from posting their content knowing or believing that shipfic is going to get more attention. And that doesn’t mean I’m wrong for shipping the characters or shouldn’t post content that I enjoy or shouldn’t read and reblog and comment on the shippy content I like, but I do want that hypothetical person to feel excited about sharing their content too and feel like they have a place in the fandom too. I think there’s a lot of the same issue going on here — people putting a lot of work into things and wanting to find that community of people who will be excited with them. And I get that not seeing or experiencing that can lead to frustration and a need to vent, too. 

I’m not sure I have a great solution or all-encompassing point here because I think a lot of this might boil down to small fandoms having a complicated dynamic — when there’s only so many people who like a thing, if other people don’t like it in the same way that you do, that’s going to be discouraging and sometimes lead to pressure to go along with what’s popular just to create some connection with other people who like the thing. (Maybe the problem is that it’s hard for people who do like the thing in the same way to find each other?)

(Also, in all honesty, for me there is this added layer with Leela/Narvin of having the creative team repeatedly talking in behind the scenes stuff and online about how the fandom ships Leela/Narvin and how the creative team sees Leela/Narvin as a romantic thing — which feels a bit like the creative team is trying to define a) the fandom’s interests (when actually there’s a lot more diversity of opinion) and b) what the “correct” interpretation of the relationship is. And yeah, I try to ignore what the creators of a thing are saying behind the scenes (this is my sandbox!), but that does still feel alienating sometimes. And I’m saying this as someone who actually does ship Leela/Narvin — I just don’t only ship Leela/Narvin and I like multiple interpretations — I don’t always want to read the relationship as romantic. Again, I might be wrong, and I don’t want to speak for other people, but given that the fandom is so small, and often has close ties with the creators as a result of that small size, I imagine that can create a chilling effect on content that doesn’t fit with the creators’ interpretation of the audios. And I do want to super stress that this is not at all meant to be a criticism of Leela/Narvin shippers (and for people who are excited by that creator validation, I’m glad! I want people to be having a good time!). This point isn’t even about fandom at all — it’s just a dynamic that I’m seeing that might complicate people’s motivation to create fan content and contribute to some of that frustration.) 

Tl;dr — I’d like to think there’s a way to both respect the work of fan creators who like popular things in a small fandom and also create space for fan creators who don’t like popular things in a small fandom, and I don’t know what that path is or how to work on that given the dynamics of a small fandom, but I think it’s something good to strive for, and something that I’m probably going to keep thinking about. 

[orionsangel86]

I'm tired of this discussion about Saileen or Samwena. Why can't be both? I recognize the potential that Sam and Rowena had for a romantic relationship, they really seemed to be going in that direction, and as Rowena said, they'd grown fond of each other. But I also recognize the potential that Sam and Eileen have for a romantic relationship, for reasons that we all saw at s11, s12 and s15. What do you think?

Hi there!

Is this discussion still ongoing? Since I have blocked it all out to be honest and refuse to engage in drama on the topic. But since you asked I will give you my thoughts on the whole Saileen/Samwena thing.

First of all I like your thinking! Why not both indeed! I don’t care for shipping wars but here’s the way I see things. I have never been a “death of the author” kind of person. My whole process for writing meta is what I think the writers and creators of the show are intending to convey when they tell the story that we see. In season 11, Eileen was introduced as a clear love interest for Sam. She has always been portrayed this way even after her untimely death (which I still believe only happened because they didn’t have any other close characters to the brothers at the time to kill off whose actors they could get last minute and whose death would be equally shocking - I know it’s just speculation but it’s my belief). I wrote a long post here about my love for Saileen and how it has been portrayed in the show. I am firmly still a Saileen shipper because it was just perfect from the start, but also I only ever “ship” things that I see within the show as being planted purposely by the creators. I ship Saileen because Saileen has always been a thing ya know? It’s not imaginary and never has been.

However, following Eileen’s death in Season 12, Sam and Rowena’s relationship has been heavily developed on. They bonded over their shared Lucifer trauma, their experiences with fear and their interest in magic. The relationship between them is complex and very much an enemies to friends (to something more?) set up. Sam is canonically Rowena’s protege and now her heir. The mutual respect they hold for each other is clearly noticeable and their destinies tied by fate through Billie’s death books could arguably be considered romantic. Basically, Sam and Rowena as a love story is certainly a dramatic and interesting one that ticks a lot of boxes for a lot of people. I do believe that for a time, the writers flirted with the idea of them as a romantic pairing and that there was clear authorial intent to code their relationship in a romantic way. Especially in seasons 13 and 14. Whilst I never “shipped” Samwena, I guess I saw it the way I see Drowley. I believed that it was being intentionally written with romantic undertones. I was all for it as a romantic pairing, have never been against it, but it didn’t feel me with “feels” either I guess. I love both Sam and Rowena individually, and whether the story took them in a romantic direction or not wouldn’t have bothered me. Had Eileen never come back, I would have squee’d and enjoyed it with the rest of you, even if I wasn’t super invested ya know?

I think a lot of people saw their relationship as romantic after the Billie death book reveal. It was a nice idea that Rowena’s “death” at Sam’s hands might be a metaphorical death where she would choose to give up her immortality for him. (It’s also an idea generally adored by Destiel shippers so it’s not surprising that this was something people got excited about).

Unfortunately this idea didn’t pan out and Sam literally had to kill Rowena. I am one of the people who really loved her death scene, because it felt like a true redemption and moment of empowerment for Rowena. I know that there are people who will disagree with me on that and that is absolutely fine. I guess for me, Rowena making that ultimate sacrifice just felt right for her character journey at that point because true redemption was something she still needed. Rowena was always previously an anti-hero character. She had still done a lot of bad and hadn’t really repented or redeemed herself for the bad she had done in the earlier seasons. She was still generally motivated by selfish desires and still pretty much made decisions for herself, though like Crowley, her respect and care for the Winchesters conflicted with her own selfish motivations and in the later seasons she chose to help them even at risk to herself, which put her well on her way to redemption of course. But this death was her actual redemption. Her true sacrifice, purely selfless deed, in order to not only save the Winchesters, but also the world.

Therefore I see her rise to power again as Queen of Hell as a reward for her sacrifice and redemption. I never believed that 15x03 was the last we’d see of her (too much womb and maternal imagery there). I believe that Queen of Hell is a satisfactory end point for her, having reached her full potential and freeing herself of all the former oppression and bindings that she faced. She is now one of the most powerful beings in the universe along with Chuck, Amara, Billie, the Empty, Eve, and Jack. It’s a position that makes sense for a character who has always desired unlimited power.

I also think that Rowena will continue to be a big player in the story. This definitely isn’t the last we’ve seen of her in terms of fighting the final boss battle, but her position as Queen of Hell I do think will remain a fixed position from here. Though if it isn’t, and the writers have something else wonderful in store for her, I will also be happy with that too.

Given that canonically Sam and Eileen desire and want each other, and are only being separated by Chuck (and look, I’m not gonna get real deep into it, but I felt that 15x09 did go far to stress that whilst Chuck set up the reunion because he wanted “romance” in his story, the feelings, the connection, and everything else between Sam and Eileen is 100% real. Sam textually states that it’s real after all (in a nice and also emotionally destroying mirror to Cas saying the same thing to Dean in 15x02 by the way - Forever a Destiel shipper here :P)) it is logical that Sam and Eileen will reunite and rekindle their romance at some point in a coming episode. I am of the belief that Saileen is probably our endgame here. I don’t think that they would have gone to the trouble to bring Eileen back in the final season, make her a love interest for Sam, only to either kill her off, kill him off, or separate them again and not have them be endgame.

But I could be totally wrong. Could Sam and Rowena still reunite and start a new love connection? Sure it’s possible. Rowena is coming back as well I would put money on it. We don’t know how the show plans to end after all. Who knows, maybe Sam will also sacrifice himself and go to hell and that whole Boy!King dropped story arc from season 3 will finally get picked up again! Sam and Rowena as Queen and consort of Hell could be quite an amusing and somewhat fitting end for them! The two characters who suffered most at Lucifer’s hands taking over and ruling Hell as a big fuck you to their tormentor is certainly poetic.

Maybe Supernatural will go super progressive and send Eileen to Hell too. Maybe the Queen will find herself in a loving polyamorous threesome for the rest of eternity?

Wouldn’t it actually be really fun if Supernatural ends with Castiel choosing humanity, and saying goodbye to his son Jack, who takes over the rule of Heaven, and at the same time Dean chooses to stay on Earth, and says goodbye to his brother (aka son) Sam, who takes over the rule of Hell as consort to the Queen in his new polyamorous relationship with both the Queen and his girlfriend? Dean and Cas live out a happy human life knowing they are the proud parents of the new rulers of Heaven and Hell?!?

Lol. Look I’m just trying to find a compromise here that all Samwena and Saileen shippers can agree on and if there is one thing we can all generally agree on it’s that Dean and Cas need to stay together whatever happens and fuck it out on the map table. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I’m joking of course. (or am I?!?)

So yeah. I follow people who are passionate Samwena shippers, and I follow people who are passionate Saileen shippers. I consider them all people who I care about and respect. I just want everyone to get along and if a polyamorous love threesome in Hell is how we go about that then I am totally down for that. :D

I haven’t got beef with anyone regardless of who they ship with who unless they plan to start harassing people for holding a different opinion, but I’ve already blocked all those people anyway. It makes for a much easier life. Trust me. :P

[speakgermanhier]

This is gonna be long

Though I only really watched the first season of the original Roswell series, Maria and Michael were my OTP before I even knew what an OTP was. Their relationship was fraught, they had undeniable chemistry, and it was a relationship to root for.

In Roswell, New Mexico, to say that Michael and Maria would be a forced thing or rushed or anything like that would be completely inaccurate. The scenes they’ve had together are filled with flirty energy. And it has been established that Michael has been sleeping with women while Alex has been away. (And we can assume Alex has been sleeping with men while away). The potential is there, whether for a fling or something more.

HOWEVER, the intense, “I see you” chemistry that defined Michael and Maria’s relationship in the original series is now firmly in the grasp of Michael and Alex. They are the on-again, off-again pair that keep being pulled back to each other, filled with intense longing, explosive sexual chemistry, and past hurt.

If we were to forget Alex for a moment and Michael were to sleep with or start seeing Maria in Roswell, New Mexico, it would have a very different energy than their pairing in the original series. As I said before, their energy together in the new one is flirty, there’s potential there, and it could be the start of this new, healthy, and unencumbered relationship. It hasn’t been shown to be a fiery passion like they had in the original (or like Michael has with Alex right now--couldn’t forget him forever) but perhaps it would be good for both of them. And perhaps they could get there. 

Knowing how the past show went and given the flirty energy between them (and given that it’s The CW), it does seem inevitable that they’ll hook up. It doesn’t feel as destined as it did in the first iteration or as destined as Michael and Alex are being framed so far, but I definitely feel like it’s being teased.

And perhaps the writers could pull it off EXCEPT for the fact that Maria and Alex are BEST FRIENDS. And here is where I get filled with dread.

Forget the fact that I absolutely despise love triangles--I don’t think they do any of the characters any favors. This PARTICULAR love triangle would be especially disastrous.

Maria is not just a woman that Michael has chemistry with, she is one of Alex’s best friends. For Michael to make a move on Maria (or reciprocate a move she makes on him) he would either have to be completely insensitive to how that would impact both Alex and Maria, not just with their relationships with him, but with each other as well (which would be out of character, he is neither a callous nor a stupid person) , or he would have to firmly and unequivocally be done with Alex (which is not how love triangles work). Because having a love triangle between 3 characters where 2 of them are best friends and having the characters keep going back and forth between each other stretches credulity and, I feel, destroys all 3 characters and thus, my enjoyment of the show.

I mean, it gets tiring to see love triangles when the 2 (or more) potential love interests involved DON’T already have a deep connection that ties them together completely independent of the romantic love interest. I can just imagine how devastating it would be to watch a love triangle, like there might be here, when they DO. Because it is not just the romantic love that gets messed with, it is the friendship and sense of family, security, and support that we’ve seen between Maria and Alex that gets messed with and potentially destroyed as well.

I’ve been seeing people say they don’t want Michael and Maria to happen because they don’t want her to turn into a plot device, which is pretty damn presumptive and insulting, both to her character and to the writers. I mean, they have been working really hard to develop these characters individually, outside of any romantic plot (e.g. Maria’s running her own business while taking care of her mom, Alex’s confronting his abuser, and Michael’s search for understanding and accepting his past). To just assume all she could bring to a relationship is the angst 2 men need to finally get together is not showing respect for her character. 

I don’t want them to get together because I don’t want to see the drama of how it will affect Michael and Alex’s relationship AND Maria and Alex’s relationship. Whether Maria develops feelings for Michael and makes a move (or finds out about Michael and Alex and doesn’t make a move) or Michael makes a move on Maria, I feel like there are enough real moments of joy and angst/drama in the show that are far more engaging than pining after someone in a love triangle. I feel like the writers are better than that and that the characters deserve more than that.

Beyond Maria and Alex’s relationship, there is how it will affect Michael’s character, that he suddenly becomes the type of man who will mess with people’s emotions like that, knowing what Maria and Alex mean to each other. I like these characters, watching them every week is a pleasure and the drama they experience feels real. Their stories are engrossing, separate and together, the writers are doing a great job developing characters that feel real, and the contrived drama of a love triangle feels like a betrayal of that.

While I never want to tell anyone who to ship, I think everyone should let people ship who they ship, those who see Michael and Maria as endgame, can you understand why Malex shippers might be overprotective, reactionary, and prickly? We have a canon m/m relationship with two fully fledged characters who are getting separate character arcs as well as an epic, feels like endgame, romance that is getting the same serious treatment and development as heterosexual relationships, but it’s precarious. With all of that development and groundwork, from the very first episode, just to be leading to Michael and Maria, it would be unexpected and like having the carpet pulled out from under you. In the first episode, Michael and Alex were framed in parallel with Max and Liz and yet we don’t expect a separate endgame for them. Yet, with the canon of the first series, the flirtatiousness between Michael and Maria, and the ever persistent resistance to have gay/bisexual characters be happy together, it does feel like a threat is hanging over us that the writers might go in that direction despite all logic.

And speaking of logic, Alex has been set up as very integral to the show outside of his romance with Michael, so if Michael and Maria are endgame, where does that leave Alex? How do we get from how drawn these two men are to each other (Michael “I never look away” Guerin and Alex “I feel 17 again” Manes) to a healthy and happy relationship with Maria where Alex can find peace and acceptance with their relationship and Michael doesn’t look like complete shit? Because will Maria be happy to lose her best friend for a guy? Because Alex and Michael, as we saw in the very first episode and have seen again and again, are still very much hung up on each other and not ready to move on in any meaningful way. 

When I say I don’t want Michael and Maria to end up together, I’m just talking about in the actual show, in the canon--people can do what they want in the fanon, that’s what fix-it fics are for. I just don’t see Michael and Maria working as endgame and I see the drama involved in such a relationship as unavoidable and hurtful instead of entertaining. And honestly, you’re not going to make a move like that and completely ignore the drama it produces. 

Finally, I do see Michael and Alex as endgame, they certainly have been framed that way so far and I just don’t see how the writers can have Michael sleep with or have a relationship with one of Alex’s best friends and still make it believable that Michael and Alex end up together. If Maria weren’t one of Alex’s best friends, maybe, but given that she is, Alex just does not seem like that kind of person. Nor do Maria and Michael, for that matter.

[go-diane-winchester]

New question:  Why do I dislike Misha and his fans?

@super-who-loser asked the following question:

Hey, I’m not trying to come across as rude or anything I’m just wondering why you dislike Misha so much? I know Jared and Jensen have been there since the beginning and yes, there have been times where his character has been pretty useless but I don’t hate him and you’re being really mean to some Destiel shippers and like I know that it’s obviously never going to happen and Cockles is a big no no for me but I am confused about why you really don’t like him? I’m honestly just curious

Thank you for the question.  Let me point out before hand, that my irritation towards Misha has nothing to do with a ship.  I used to read destiel slash.  I used to like Cockles AU.  I don't ship wincest.  I ship AUs.  Its my favorite slash subgenre.  So no, this is not a ship argument.  Ship whatever you want, but mind your manners.  There are many things that I don't like about Misha.  However I am choosing to answer only from a SPN perspective because that is the primary way that we know him. 

MISHA AND SLASH FICTION

You may not realize this but Supernatural has been on the air for so long that it, plus its fan base, has experienced and initiated a few changes and trends.  In the space of fourteen years, filming became digitalized.  Social media, which was a fledgling thing back then, is the norm now [I have a disdain towards social media].  To put it into perspective, the child actors that played Asher, the Antichrist kid [I forget his name] and Little Lillith from the early seasons are likely in their 20s now.  Trends in entertainment changed.  Hollywood seems poised to implode upon itself, geographically, with major entertainers moving house to outlets like Netflix.  Netflix, not bound by geography, is likely to become the next Hollywood.  Slash, too, has undergone change.  And as far as SPN is concerned, that change has not been organic.  It has been by design and at the hands on Misha Collins. 

When Castiel came on board, there were already two prevalent pairings in Supernatural:  Wincest and Bobby/John.  There were other pairings.  But these were the most prevalent.   So Supernatural had slash fans already.  These fans were already aware of what slash fiction was, and they were a self-monitoring group.  They realized that the actors were aware of slash and didn't want it to be the focal point of their con appearances, because they didn't want the fans to think they were hinting at anything.  The fans understood and ever since, they have respected the actor's wishes.  When some fans liked Dean's interaction with Cas, they started shipping destiel. 

Destiel's old fans were just like all the other shippers.  They were treating destiel the way it should be treated.  Like a fantasy.  They did artwork and literature about it and kept it to themselves, as they should.  Misha never knew what slash fiction was, until he looked on Tumblr and found Destiel.  In his words, he used destiel to ''keep this gig for longer''.  He kept talking about destiel even though he was instructed not to, and pulling the LGBT into it, to make it look like destiel was about gay rights and queer art, when it isn't.  There are various kinds of destiel written by different people, from different perspectives, for different reasons.  That is true for all pairings everywhere.  By making destiel about the LGBT and waving the ''no shipping question'' rule in convention panels, he did two things. 

He turned destiel into a vehicle for LGBT activism.  Instead of being a pastime, now destiel is used to fight for LGBT representation, even though, many of the LGBT people within my own circle despise him for it.  Most of the people fighting for LGBT representation are actually quite homophobic and insulting in their thinking and logic.  And they are not even LGBT.  They are just a bunch of straight girls for whom, their fantasy has become a drug, and they wont stop until destiel becomes canon. 

He turned Jensen into the bad guy.  Misha spoke openly about slash.  Jensen chose not to.  He didn't want any part of it, and this is true about all the pairings he is a part of, not just destiel.  Because of his choice, Misha fans make negative comparisons between him and Misha, even saying that Jensen is a homophobe/biphobe because he doesn't want to talk about destiel or make it canon.  They ranted about it on social media and mass media picked up on it.  The University Of Sydney has an academic paper, under Celebrity Studies, dedicated to Jensen's supposed homophobia.  The destiel shippers are literally Jensen's reputation. 

Misha should have left slash alone.  Any fan of his will know that he overindulges the slash fans.  And the one thing that I noticed about slash fans, is that you don't give them excessive attention, or they will go completely crazy.  It doesn't matter what they slash.

Harry Styles and Liam Tomlinson learned that the hard way, because the Larry fans destroyed their friendships when they over-emphasized the fan servicing.  They did the fan servicing because Modest Management told them to, they  ended up hating their fans for what the fans became.  They have since severed ties with Modest.  Even on a day when one of them was mourning the loss of a parent, the fans who pushing the other guy so they could have a ship moment.  These two boys were very young when they entered the band.  Harry was 15 years old.  They had youthful ignorance to blame for making the decision to blindly follow the manager's instruction.  Misha cannot make any of those excuses. 

Misha got into the show at age 35.  He was already a grown man.  He was not a pivotal part of the show and therefore the only notes he was getting, was for his acting.  He wasn't being coached by anyone as to how he should engage his fans.  He was too small a fry for that.  In fact, no one was sure how long he would last on the show.  So these notes were only acting, including one telling him not to adlib his lines.  Whatever transpired between him and the destiel fans, happened because he orchestrated it. 

MISHA AND SUPERNATURAL

When Cas came on board, he was fun new character.  By the end of season 5, he had run his course on the show.  The show didn't need his character because [and as a writer I understand this] the presence of Castiel hampered the progress of the story.  Sera Gamble dealt with that frustration during her tenure as showrunner.  Cas was an angel.  If he was an ally to the boys, the boys should have a more powerful nemesis.  After all, they have an angel buddy to help them.  Unfortunately, they couldn't keep coming up with more and more powerful bad guys and negative elements, especially on a show where the biggest bad guy, the devil itself, and the worst case scenario [the apocalypse] has already been dealt with.  

During 6 and 7, they had Soulless Sam, Sam's wall, the leviathans, Metatron, the demons, Crowley, Dick Roman and even the Alphas, if I am not mistaken.  So many bad guys and bad situations, because the good guys had a powerful angel.  They could make him lose his power, so he wont be such a powerful ally.  And they did exactly that.  But Misha has very few skills to show off.  Imagine if Osric was Cas.  Even without power, he would still be able to taekwondo the stuffing out of bad guys.  He wouldn't be useless.  Cas, without his grace, didn't help the story along.  He didn't bring something extra to the story.  He was pointless.  So they made him a bad guy and for the first time in a long time, Cas was pivotal to the story.    

Eventually, she got fed up of shoehorning him into the script and just did away with the character.  But, rumor has it that Singer brought him back.  And he was welcome by the worst Q score measurement ever.  That would tell you that he was not appreciated as an actor by everyone, just his shipping and cult fans.  Since then, Cas has done nothing important in the script until recently where he made a deal for Jack.  Other than that, he has been an add on, and that is Misha's fault.  Every time Jensen and Misha did a scene, Misha would overemphasize the destiel aspect, either via social media or during his panels.  And eventually Jensen got fed up and cut the scenes short.  Basically, Misha shot himself in the foot.  The DeanCas fan service made for annoying television for people who didn't want to deal with shippy nonsense while they were watching their favorite show. 

If they didn't add anything shipping related, the hellers screamed.  If they did, the hellers screamed canon and queer baiting.  Misha's interference did that.  All he had to do was stop talking, and he couldn't do that, because his fan base will lose interest in him.  In order to keep that one group of militants, Misha isolated all other fans and potential fans. 

MISHA AND THE DESTIEL FANS

Misha's fan have sent Jensen various death threats, the receipts of which are on my blog.  A few days back, a heller was setting Jensen's picture on fire because Misha tweeted a lie that there will be a turning point for Dean and Cas in the upcoming episode.  So even though Misha was the guilty party, this psycho is punishing Jensen.  These fans have also discussed kidnapping Jared's children.  When they bully Jensen and Jared, they tag Misha in many of the tweets.  Misha randomly does Q and A sessions based on his tweets, but he has never seen a single threat and bullying remark??.....in ten years??.....really??  Nah, I am not buying that.  Frankly, I think the man just doesn't care.  Acknowledging them will mean he will have to stop them which means he will eventually have to stop peddling destiel which means he will not have an audience which means SPN will kick him right out.  The funny thing is, I think he is wrong.  He might actually have more fans if he didn't alienate them with his special brand of shippy vulgarity.  I could fill a page with all the receipts of the death threats.  And Jensen doesn't deserve that. 

I also call out destiel shippers on Tumblr so that everyone else can block the problematic ones.  Have you noticed how many names there are for the destiel pairing?  DeanCas, CasDean, DeanxCastiel and recently I discovered Dastiel.  Have you ever wondered why?  It is because they don't want you to block them.  If you filter destiel, they will use another name.  Why is that?  That is not a ship.  That's a cult.  They want to indoctrinate.  They tag destiel in other fandom names.  They are trying to create more fans for a ship.  That is why I call out specific people.  Especially the ones that tag AKF in their destiel garbage.  I have no issues with the good shippers.  I have done posts about them.  The bad ones might do something criminal one day, which is why they bother me. 

This answer, only just scratches the surface.  I am not telling you everything.  I am not telling you about Jared, Robert Berens, Kim, Briana, Travis, Sera Gamble, Ben Edlund, Ty Olsson etc.  I am just telling you the brief basics.  I hope this answers your question.  Have a nice day.  Apologies for the inevitable typos.

[agl03]

Why do you think FS is getting married in the 100th when their last interaction was Jemma being uncomfortable with Fitz's change in personality after the framework? Wouldn't you prefer them to work through their issues first?

Hi Anon,

I started out this season very careful when it came to Fitzsimmons.  Last season was rough on me as a shipper and in this role I have in the fandom where I field a lot of asks.  And I didn’t want a repeat of last season.  In that I was and still am very cautious with my predictions and theories.  

Hints for the 100th started popping up towards the end of hiatus and I have been gathering information since then.  It wasn’t until the engagement came in 6 that I really felt the wedding was really possible in the 100th (it’s been on my list all along but it got legs in 6), and even now I’m not sure how that will look.  

Here are the facts that have me leaning towards a Fitzsimmons Wedding in the 100th. 

Marriage was originally set up in Self Control which was written with Mo and directed by Jed.   Robo Fitz could have gone any number of directions in that conversation with Jemma but Jed purposely had it be planting the marriage seed.  He knew where they wanted things to go, especially when I see Seasons 4 and 5 as one massive interconnected story arc.

Back in April of last year EW had a Spoiler Room Tid Bit:   Even though it was LMD Fitz who brought up marriage, will the couple still discuss that on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.? — MatthewThat all depends on if and when they actually get out of the Framework, but basically yes. “He was expressing real emotion,” EP Jed Whedon says. “It could happen. If they ever get back together, that’s something that could happen in their future.

Jed/Mo/Jeff the EP’s, showrunners, know exactly where this is all going wrote the 100th as well.  

In November Jed and MO gave and interview to SPX Magazine and when asked about the 100th.  The goal will be the recognition of our own mythology we’ve developed over the past five seasons.  When we first started, people were hoping, or expecting us, it to be something that was directly tied to the movies.  I feel like over the course of the years, we’ve solidly created our own world, with our own characters that have merit.  If anything, the story for our 100th will definitely be a way of celebrating that.While Jeph said:   “Look, this is not going to come as a surprise to anyone that’s ever seen a 100th episode, that there will be a significant event. That’s all I can tell you. They gotta get home from space!”

Clark and Chloe’s TV Guide Interview.  

Clark’s Interview with Screenrant:  “Some big things. A very big thing,” in the 100th episode. Gregg went on to offer a hint at how fans will react to that “big thing” in the show’s milestone episode: “A very big thing that has been hinted at in my episode that will – if you’re like me, it will destroy any long term fans of the show.”

I’ve watched that episode a number of times and the really big things that happened in that Episode was Flint got his powers and Fitzsimmons got engaged.  Flint isn’t back on earth so for me that leaves the engagement turning into a wedding.  

Comicbook.com Article with quotes from Jeph and Clark:  

“Look, this is not going to come as a surprise to anyone that’s ever seen a 100th episode, that there will be a significant event,” Loeb said. That’s all I can tell you. They gotta get home from space!”

Agents of SHIELD star Clark Gregg teased that the episode will live up to fans’ expectations.“Fans who hope that a 100th episode will contain something that will be a cataclysmic event or a gigantically resonate event for their feels after 100 episodes will not be disappointed,“ Gregg said.

Both of them speak specifically to an event, and I take the event as an actual function kind of event.

Henry and Natalia’s interview with CBR:

“For me, it was still shocking. I have to say it was a little shocking,” Simmons recalled. “Little bit, little bit. Look, you’ve got to come strong on the 100th episode, and they did. They really delivered. I’ll put it that way. The writers, they delivered on the 100th episode in terms of anybody who has invested time in the show — even if for one season, whatever it may be — the 100th episode is a payoff for many people.”

“What happens in the 100th episode…? I’m just kidding! Something really special happens in that episode, so I think for me it was more than ‘aw, oh my god!’ It was more like ‘awww’ endearing and happy that the audience is going to get that moment,” Cordova-Buckley added.

One of the other big things that will come out of the 100th will be the terms of Coulson’s deal.  But I think that is the bad feels they are all warning us about.  Us and the team learning of Coulson’s situation and I believe that his time is running out, that this could be his last mission kind of thing is going to hurt like no tomorrow.  And that doesn’t match up with what Henry and Natalia said.  IE Coulson dying isn’t awww endearing or a big payoff for fans.

Clark to EW:  “Fans who hope that a 100th episode will contain something that will be a cataclysmic event or a gigantically resonate event for their feels after 100 episodes will not be disappointed,” Gregg said.

There is the word event again, but I also think that this speaks to both good and bad kinds of feels.  

Jed and Mo TV Line 2/27:  Tancharoen teased, “It’s definitely an emotional game changer.”“I think that nothing will be the same after [Episode 100],” Whedon echoed, “so that I guess is the definition of a game changer.”

What is happening with Coulson and the team learning his fate absolutely changes things and will shake the dynamic of the team a bit.  However this works for a married FItzsimmons too as it ups the stakes for them personally and changes their dynamic with the team as well.  

Iain’s 100th Red Carpet Interview

The way his eyes got wide when she asked about the wedding.  He was surprised when she seemed to talk about it as fact as its the thing they are hiding.  The cast and crew are given talking points of what they can and can’t say.  The orders on the Fitzsimmons Wedding are deflect or the standard “we’ll have to wait and see”

Out of everyone one the cast the two that are the most coy when it comes to a Fitzsimmons wedding are Lil and Iain themselves.  

EW Spoiler Room 3/1:  Okay, so the way everyone was describing the 100th episode has even me worried about our fearless leader. EP Jed Whedon said the landmark hour is an “emotional episode and it was emotional making it.” But Clark Gregg himself says there is also some hope during the 100th, though he wouldn’t reveal if it has to do with him. “There’s been a big scary dagger of fate hanging over Coulson’s head all season and we’re going to find out the nature of that and what it means going forward,” Gregg says, referencing the deal with Ghost Rider. “That in itself would be enough drama for a 100th episode, but on top of that, we have an incredible device the writers have come up with where some characters from the past will appear. There is also a moment that many of us have waited a long time for. I won’t say what ‘ship it has to do with, but somebody’s ‘ship is going to reach a shore.”

I know there has been some debate as to which ship Clark was referring I’ve touched on in a few metas why I think its Fitzsimmons.  

Natalia’s BTS IG Story:  In it Iain clearly has a ring on.  And by my best guess this was about when they would have been filming 16, so the wedding takes place between 12-16.  

Playing my own devils advocate, yes this could be for another flashback/forward scene.  

Story wise I feel this is a good place for it.  They aren’t wasting anymore time nor are they willing to risk being separated again if they can help it.  It offers a bit of hope in a bleak/stressful situation.   As I said above it raises the stakes for Fitzsimmons even more since they are now fighting for their future together, that dream of growing old together.  I also feel that if they are having them get married it plays a part in the story still to come, possibly as early as 14 based on the synopsis.  

I’ve did a couple of metas following 5.10 and “the reaction” HERE and HERE.   Two long metas short, Jemma didn’t see a change in Fitz’s personality, she was taken back by the how.  

I absolutely agree that they need to address both of their trauma that from the Framework, but I also know that the writers don’t always have the time to go into the detail the fans would like.  Married or no FItzsimmons still have the trauma and its not going to change them wanting to get married.  Jemma never wavered in her faith of him in the Framework and she’s not going to start now.  But in the end the story has to move along, there is limited time and the writers only address what they absolutely have too to move the story along.

 I FULLY ADMIT I could be wrong, I have missed before, I’ve gone down with the ship on big misses (AKA “Fitz isn’t an LMD” last season), so i will as always caution to manage expectations.  I’m making the choice to allow myself to get excited about it based on my interpretation of what is out there in interviews and teases, but if it doesn’t happen I won’t be upset either.  Whatever this big “event’ is will be great.   And no matter what I think something awesome will happen with Fitzsimmons in the 100th.  Aside from that I want to know the terms of Coulson’s Deal, how Davis is on two press releases, if my Hydra theory is right, more information on the other monoliths, more Deke hints, old faces returning, and overall more pieces of the puzzle.  

[thecloserkin]

Wasteland by Francesca Lia Block (2003)

Genre: YA

Is it the main pairing: Yes

Is it canon: Yes

Is it explicit: No

Is it endgame: Ahahaha no he’s dead from the get-go the book is about her processing her grief

Is it shippable: Depends on your tolerance for angst — mine is high so yes

Yes the story is far from ideal but I am of the opinion that it is a must-read for incest shippers. Y’all can safely ignore the publisher’s summary which makes it sounds like this is a book about her falling in love with some other guy, how he helps her “put the pieces back together” and “face the past that is haunting her.” Lol like >70% of the scenes are in the “past,” her brother is not her past he is her everything.

A couple of stylistic disclaimers before we get into it: The dust jacket describes the novel as “darkly opalescent” and “poetic and lush.” If that’s not your cup of tea then you know who you are. It’s not exactly Second Person POV but it might as well be: the pronoun “you” is the siblings’ special name for each other, so the chapters are told in alternating POVs and there is a lot of “you” this “you” that. Nonlinear narrative too but you probably surmised that from the “poetic” bit. Francesca Lia Block’s prose is spare and sharp but the plot is nonexistent and the character development is scarcely less so. It’s a slim volume, 150 not-very-densely-spaced pages with generous margins, and we already know what’s going to happen. Spoiler alert they were iN lOvE!!!!! What this book does have in spades, however, is alllllllll the best brosis incest tropes; checks every damn box. Spoilers ahead:

When you were a baby I sat very still to hold you. I could see the veins through your skin like a map to inside you. How could skin be that thin? I was afraid you might drop and break. I stopped breathing so you wouldn’t …. Then you reached out and curled your fingers around mine … That was the first time I knew I had a heart inside my body.

I cannot get enough of this - the instant, bone-deep, lifelong connection. I look forward to seeing it develop into romantic love of course but you cannot skimp on establishing the depth of their relationship prior to that. Let the record reflect that I am 132% here for the older sibling gravitating to the crib to calm the crying baby. You know what I’m also here for? Teenagers walking in on each other masturbating:

You jerked up and looked at me. You were in bed with the sheet over you and the room smelled close. I smelled your pot and beer and your smell — salty, warm, baked. I read in a magazine that women aren’t supposed to be attracted to the smells of their father and brothers.

She’s clearly aware of her burgeoning attraction to him but she’s also confused by it, and even more confused about whether he reciprocates. She’s barged into his room before going on a date specifically so he’ll see her outfit and her makeup and I don’t think it’s even to make him jealous — jealousy is, if anything, a secondary objective. She wants him to tell her she’s beautiful. She needs his praise and validation in order to feel real; she needs it like a plant needs sunlight. One of my favorite things about incest ships is how they know each other inside out:

We’d stop for rocky road ice cream in Westwood on the way home and I picked out the nuts and gave them to you, you plucked marshmallows out for me.

Just the use of the customary we would stop instead of the one-off we stopped says volumes about this bonding ritual. Then she goes on to describe how she got sunburnt at the beach and he was the one to apply aloe/ointment to the blisters. The blisters on her CHIN and her CHEST. After that they have a convo about reincarnation, which ends thusly:

If you were a mermaid, you said, If you were a mermaid, I was the sea.

Later on he gets a mermaid tattoo. Adkjkdfjkdfdjk. At this point I should probably mention that the main characters’ names are Lex and Marina and Marina means “from the sea.” It is unclear what Lex is short for but probably Alexander? Which means something like “defender.” Check it out though this is what happens when Marina gets her first period:

I asked Michelle to go and get you. I could have told her, I guess, but I didn’t. I wanted you. I was scared and you were always who I went to when I was scared. I was practically stuck to my seat. The wetness pooling underneath me. I looked up at you. You had come running. There was sweat on you face, your eyes all pupil. Hey, you, you said, down on your knees looking at me. Hey you what is it you scared me you okay?

She doesn’t even say anything just casts her eyes downward into her lap and he knows right away what it is. He takes off his sweatshirt, ties it around her hips, pulls her upright, holds her against him for a second, then goes on to walk behind her down the hall, shielding her body with his. When will you fave ever.

I never looked at other boys. I tried, as I got older, to like them. I tried to like my square-jawed dance partner in sixth grade graduation … I tried teen idols with their skinny bodies and whiny voices … I tried to like Robby Rydell because he was a good skateboarder but he caught me with a jump-rope lasso and tried to stick his tongue in my mouth on the playground before he ever said hi. I really tried hard to like Brent Fisher because it seemed important that I find somebody at that point. Not somebody to fill a space. There was never a space.

TRIED TO STICK HIS TONGUE IN MY MOUTH BEFORE HE EVER SAID HI. Why would she ever go for any of these jerkwads when Lex is right there.

So in addition to the Lex and Marina POVs there are also sections narrated by a kid named West, a friend of Marina’s. He is lowkey interested in her, but I’m okay with that since it’s not like he’s bitter or whinging about being friendzoned. I’m actually partial to Outsider POVs when they serve the important narrative function of confirming the untouchability of the main relationship, which West absolutely does. He literally thought Lex was her boyfriend the first time he saw Marina in seventh grade:

They were walking together and laughing and he thought that must be her boyfriend.

Imagine how many people must have thought the same thing though. And West is very matter-of-fact when he describes Lex as “the person you love more than anyone,” and when he sees Marina completely dry-eyed at Lex’s funeral he is super concerned because how the hell do you hold all of that in girl — “to hold your brother’s life and his death inside of her,” is the way he puts it.

One time Lex goes to a fortune teller. She tells him “There’s someone who loves you too much,” which is exactly the sort of vague but broadly applicable prognostication that con artists are known for tendering. For fifty dollars she promises to tell him more, but Lex thinks What more could she tell me? I already knew. He fights it but he can’t help it because him and Marina? It’s like fighting gravity. Tbh most of the tension in their relationship is a result of them trying to fight the gravitational pull of their attraction. Lex goes to a prostitute because, well:

She was the farthest I could get from you. That’s what I wanted.

The next logical thing to do, of course, is to date Marina’s bff, thereby damaging Marina’s own relationship with the girl but Lex explains he’s desperate to do something, anything to “sever” himself from Marina definitively. Needless to say I am 200% here for siblings engaging in unsatisfactory sex with other partners in order to cope with their forbidden feelings … as long as they hook up in the end. Which they do. While housesitting for Lex’s English teacher. It’s this grand old house with a sunken garden, filled with old books and plenty of wine, and outside the jasmine is in full bloom. I mention this because the scene is carefully framed as a romantic one, not some sordid sweaty physical encounter. I’m pretty sure there was fumbling — it was Marina’s first time after all — but it’s in keeping with the genre that Marina draws herself a bubble bath and throws the window open and calls for Lex to bring her a refill of wine … and that’s when we fade to black. Guys their story is TOO PURE FOR THIS WORLD.

They go to a club:

One of the guys from out there came over … He said hey, asked you who I was. You asked him why he wanted to know. He flashed his sharp teeth at you. He said why’d you think? because I was a babe. You said I was your sister and you looked like a statue.

Lex is torn between being overprotective because Marina is his sister or jealous because Marina is the love of his life and I am dyyyyying. Lex, later:

He may have a basement full of artillery but if he ever comes near you I am going to kill him.

Straight up threatening to end anyone who even looks crosswise at his (objectively drop-dead gorgeous) sister? YES.

After Lex dies a random girl whom Marina has never laid eyes on before comes to their door and demands a memento so she can make an honest-to-god altar to Lex. This is creepy af and I don’t at all blame Marina for telling her to get lost. Well, it turns out this girl was in love with Lex probably. And you know how sometimes when you’re in love even if it’s one-sided you notice things about the object of your affection that other people don’t? This girl feels like she was entitled to Lex’s affection as much as his leather jacket. Lol bitch no he belongs to Marina heart and soul.

She said that Marina would regret this. She said it’s one thing to keep someone to yourself when they’re alive, but when they’re dead it’s really sick.

Don’t worry, Marina handles her fine. But it’s strongly implied that this girl, or someone else in her posse, or someone else entirely, guessed or suspected about the incest and threatened Lex with the knowledge and that’s how he winds up committing suicide.

I love this book so much. At the same time it is just.so.painful. to read. It unequivocally frames Lex and Marina’s story as a love story rather than as deviant behavior, which is all to the good. And it’s like Trope City here. But Lex essentially commits suicide out of guilt for the intensity of his feelings for Marina, which — last time I checked the world was not suffering any shortage of incest stories where it ends badly for the protagonists. And then …. plot twist! (I know I said there was no plot but somehow there is a plot twist.) Turns out Lex was adopted. Cue the Alanis Morissette song “Ironic.” Marina is livid when she confronts her mother about it:

I said I had a right to know, why didn’t she tell me?

Do you think I didn’t see what was between you? Do you think I could tell you he wasn’t really your brother ad have my children …

She couldn’t finish it and I couldn’t tell her that it had happened anyway.

Welp. So that happened. And when she recounts the conversation to West, he says:

Isn’t it harder now, that you know you could have?

It’s the same thing. He was my brother anyway. When someone is something to you, it’s always that.

Which about sums up how I feel about it too. The first time I read this book I was pissed about the deus ex machina reveal but I have since softened in my censure. The fact that Marina finds out about it too late makes it more tragic, not less, and it’s not like Francesca Lia Block was ever going to give us a happy ending. She’s also written another book with incest but that one is about a very damaged girl whose father molested her :(

[nealcassatiel]

My Cognitive Dissonance: The Two Fans Within Me

Sometimes I feel as though I’m two separate people who watch Supernatural. And these two separate people engage with the fandom differently, think of the show differently, and their perspective of the show differs. Of course, these two people interact and overlap, but they seem distinct from one another. I am usually aware of my own cognitive dissonances, which this is another example of. If you read this and feel differently/the same let me know! I’m interested in finding out how other people connect with this.

FAN A.

The first person I am as a Supernatural fan is the one who watched that first episode in January 2006. Supernatural has been a constant in this version of myself’s life for 13 years. Whilst I love the show to pieces, it’s the kind of very very long term relationship love where I don’t spend every week yearning for a new episode because I know it’s always been there. I don’t feel the dire need to engage with the fandom because I only started engaging with the fandom recently (in comparison to how long I’ve been watching the show). And my love for the show is just so constant that only when it’s super interesting do I need to scream to everyone about how amazing it is. Or more precisely, I’ve lived for so long with no irl friends watching SPN and not being in the fandom that I’m used to thinking over episodes alone, by myself, to myself. 

This version of me gets particularly excited at major episodes and season finales, and will feel some sense of waiting all week for the next episode to air, but it’s rarely this all-encompassing need for the next episode. Strangely, this side of me is kind of non-plussed about Destiel. Sure it’d make no narrative sense and would piss me off big time if it didn’t happen, but it wouldn't ruin the show for me and certainly isn’t the major reason I watch it every week. To this side of me, Destiel only became a big irreversible and obvious plot point in S12. Whilst there were hints of it before in the subtext, it was S12 that made it really obvious as a narrative plot point that shouldn't be shied away from. Before S12 I was of course aware of it, but I’ve always watched so many shows with canon LGBTQ characters that I’ve channeled all shipping love and love for representation into those, and never invested in non-canon m/m or w/w characters in case I get hurt. Also, for the first 11 years of my relationship with SPN, Destiel wasn’t a factor in my enjoyment of the show, so it’s still not and has never been the major reason I love and watch the show. Basically, this version of me is ALWAYS so fine with every episode. The ones that are a bit bad I’m fine with - there have always been OKish episodes per season. This version of me is fine with waiting each week - I know nothing else. This version of me seems to just have this calm acceptance of the show, it’s just this constant in my life which I love dearly and very calmly. I wouldn’t detest the show if Destiel doesn’t happen, I certainly don’t watch the show for ships, I don’t really ship characters together, more like see characters (Dean and Cas, Sam and Eileen) and think ‘it’d be cute if they got together.’ 

FAN B.

The second person I am as a Supernatural fan is the person who has really come to life after S12. This version is a massive Destiel shipper. Interestingly,  this version of me has been around long before S12 of Supernatural, it was just confined to other shows with canon couples. Take Torchwood or Shameless US  as examples of shows I used to be invested in with canon gay couples; I would wait with baited breath till the next episode to see what would progress with regards to the relationships. But of those shows would eventually piss me off, and their treatment of the gay couple would determine if I would continue watching the show for a while. Both of those shows messed with my faves and so I stopped watching them for literal years before I wanted to return to them. 

So this version of me who can’t wait to watch my fave w|w / m|m pairings each week seems to see those relationships as the fuel for my passionate love for the show, and also the reason why I might break ties with the show if those pairings don’t work out.  To be quite frank, this version of me can be quite tiring. I’m full of passion and love for a show and in love with their love and screaming with joy about my love of representation, but holy chuck does it wear me out each week waiting for the next episode and screaming over it each week. This version of me is also HIGHLY disappointed if the episode isn’t focusing enough on the couple. And so when S12 of SPN came along suddenly the more chilled, very accepting, and occasionally wildly impassioned long-time SPN fan was being thrust into the same mental space as sofa the Destiel loving exhaustingly passionate version of me. 

FAN A AND FAN B HAVE TO LIVE TOGETHER IN MY MIND

Unfortunately, there is no way that I can detach either of these versions from my singular mind. Fan A gets why Destiel-loving Fan B is so invested in that relationship and counts down the days until the next episode. Fan B doesn’t quite understand how Fan A is so chilled and not so invested. And so after a pretty OKish, non-destiel episode this is the conversation in my mind;

FAN A.: That was a good, entertaining episode. Classic mid-series - not great, but meh good enough. Gonna go away and think of the themes a bit. Cool. I’ll continue with my day and maybe come back to this at some point and look for things I might not have seen. But cool. Great.

FAN B.: What the fuck was that?! How the fuck are you so OK with that episode?????? This is absolute bullshit??? I wait all week for this???? BULLSHIT LET ME GO ONLINE AND EXPLAIN WHY.

FAN A.: Chill. It was entertaining. SPN can be like this, ya know.

FAN B.: But I’m disappointed!!!!! I can’t just chill cause you said?

End scene. And this is the conversation after say, the Tombstone episode;

FAN B.: OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AMAZING! UNBELIEVABLE! That was awesome. I’m beyond elation right now!

FAN A.: You’re too much. I’m gonna go and take a step back.

FAN B.: BE MORE EXCITED!!!!!!!!

FAN A.: Why? Destiel isn’t all SPN is?

FAN B.: Wtf, dude? But why can’t you be happy for my happiness? Perhaps a queer relationship on a long-running series is... important, perhaps??? YA KNOW? And sure, of course it isn’t ALL SPN is, but it’s evidently an important plot point which has been building for years! And you say that like somehow you’re above people who are invested in shows for shipping? Or like their discussion of a relationship somehow devalues all other reasons they love the show or invalidates their other opinions on why they love the show. Somehow they suddenly become this ‘fangirl’, whereas you apparently see yourself as ‘above’ this, or having a more broad perspective??? wtf dude. 

FAN A.: Good point. Apologies if it came across like that. I dunno how to explain it though... I just don’t care as much as you about Destiel, and sorry mate but you’re exhausting and you’re making me come over to the side where I’m waiting each week and getting invested in Destiel which has never been my relationship with the show. And because you are so much louder in our mind, and vocal, and focused on Destiel, sometimes that doesn’t give me the space to have this perspective on the episode as well. And also when an episode is just OK, instead of me just being happy with it and accepting it was fine yet entertaining (like I used to), suddenly you jump in with all your emotions and get upset by it not being good and not including Destiel or much Cas. Which I get... I just used to have this solid enjoyment of the show, and sure there were many times when I was super happy and super sad about the show, but you experience these heightened emotions EVERY BLOODY WEEK. It’s either GREAT or it’s NOT. Never like... OK? And I miss being able to watch the show and not feel super tied to this one perspective and reading/plot point?

Conclusion

I lied. I don’t have a conclusion. I don’t really know what I wanted to gain from this post... it sort of descended into me having this argument with myself (which has occurred many times in my brain after an episode airs or when my inner Fan B is annoying me by being unable to wait for the next episode).

It’s not like I (whoever the I is here) is on either side more. It’s not like a value Fan A’s point because they’ve been there since episode 1. It’s not like I devalue Fan B’s points because they focus on destiel. I literally love and misunderstand both these fans within me.

So thoughts? Anyone get confused/annoyed by their inner multiplicity? Or is this just me and now I sound weird...

[bookishwanderlusttt]

(SPOILERS) My review of The Last Jedi

I really enjoyed this movie. I didn’t absolutely enjoy it, but I thought that there were some good points to it. I will start out by saying though that even though I loved this movie, it didn’t feel like a Star Wars movie. It didn’t. I kept trying to find its spot among the others even The Force Awakens and I couldn’t find it. It just felt too different. But anyways...

(This isn’t going to be in any order. I’ve only seen it once and I’m going from memory. This is going to be kind of long.)

General Hux and Poe:

I really enjoyed the back and forth between these two. I thought that it was funny and it made me laugh but it was unrealistic (not that the Star Wars movies are realistic but you know). There is no way that would have gone on for that long without anything happening. They aren’t that stupid.

Luke and Rey:

I love the opening interaction between these two. We were left in TFA with them standing apart from each other at the end and we had no idea how Luke was going to react to Rey finding him. I laughed so hard when he took the lightsaber and threw it over his shoulder.

I loved how these two were with each other. I loved how Rey never gave up trying to get through to Luke. She followed him around to let him know she wasn’t leaving and that she wanted to train.

Leia’s Hologram:

I cried when I saw this. I loved that they did this and I felt that it completed a circle from ANH. Leia was the one who initiated Luke’s journey. If he never saw that hologram, who knows where he would have ended up. That was the spark that lit Luke’s journey and it was the spark that continued it. R2 knew Luke needed to see it to keep going and I just loved it.

First Training Session:

I loved this scene as well. I thought that it was really well done. I loved when Luke told her to reach out and she actually did and then he played around her hand with the leaf. I thought that fit in well and then she actually did reach out. She started listing off everything she was sensing, the balance. She felt every good thing and also the bad. I loved that they let her fall into the darkness because that’s not something that is allowed with the Jedi. You have to stay with the light. I was really hoping that this would mean that she was a Gray Jedi. (I’m still hoping) I thought this whole scene was beautiful even though I wasn’t a fan of how Luke reacted. I mean I get why he did because it’s explained later but I feel that it wasn’t right.

Luke Skywalker:

Playing off of that, Luke was really out of character the entire time. I remember seeing in an interview with Mark Hamill that he fundamentally disagreed with every choice they made with Luke and I can see why. He didn’t feel like Luke anymore. I can’t see in any possible situation that he would ever murder one of his apprentices let alone his own family. I understand that it was a reflex but come on. He stopped himself from killing his father because he believed the whole time there was still light in him and with Ben/Kylo he was just going to off him. I didn’t like that at all. I did like the end of the movie with Luke however. Him becoming one with the force looking into the distance at the binary suns. It was beautiful but I didn’t feel sad. I know I probably should have, but I didn’t. Overall, I didn’t like where they took his character.

Rey with the Lightsaber:

I absolutely looovvveeeddd this scene!! This was one of my favorites. When she picked up the lightsaber I got really giddy. I just loved it so much but I think the end of it with the rocks falling down onto the two below (don’t remember what they were called) it fell short. I think they were trying to hard to be funny there and could have gone without it.

Rey:

Rey’s character development was phenomenal in my opinion. I loved this girl from start to finish. She was amazing, badass, and just the best part of the movie in my opinion. I’m not sure if this movie confirmed that she was a Grey Jedi, but it felt like it in my opinion. I love how she knows theirs darkness inside of her, but she didn’t let it control her. I think she realizes that she needs the darkness, but she can’t follow it. I loved seeing her train and fight and just be awesome. I can’t wait to see where she goes in the next movie. 

Rose Tico:

I think that she was one of the best parts of the movie. I have seen some people say that she didn’t really need to be there and while I do see their point I disagree. I thought she was a great addition to the movie and I loved her a lot. I thought she was really cute and funny and I thought she was amazing. I can’t wait to see her in the next movie. 

Rose and Finn:

I think these two are really cute together. I thought they worked well together and I loved their interactions, but I didn’t see where the romance was. I was kind of shocked when Rose told Finn she loved him and then kissed him. I did think it fit. I thought they made a really good pair of friends. I could see that, but I wasn’t really feeling the love. BROTP: Yes OTP: Not really

Running out of Fuel:

This was one of the main parts of the movies and I thought it went on for too long. At the beginning I understood it didn’t make any sense by the end of it. You are telling me that this giant ship that was following behind never caught up. They could have easily obliterated the rebel ship and they didn’t? They just followed just slightly out of reach. I didn’t like this part.

Rose and Finn’s Mission:

This ties in with the previous note. It wasn’t like I didn’t like this whole thing but as with the last point it didn’t really fit. I thought that it fit well with the movie since that’s what the movie was about but the sequence didn’t. The whole Maz thing didn’t make sense and that was just the beginning of it. How were they able to contact her and why was she in a battle. That didn’t make any sense at all but whatever. My biggest issue was with the casino scene and I think my mom summed it up perfectly: “It looked like it belonged in a Bond movie, not Star Wars.” It just felt wrong. I mean I loved how Rose and Finn destroyed it and everything like an FU to the upper class and the people who abused her but it just didn’t fit.

Sneaking onto the Ship:

Continuing with that, it felt weird that they got onto the ship so easily. I know they had that code breaker guy (who was a creeeep and wasn’t even the right guy) but it felt too easy. It all felt too easy. How were they able to go around the ship and no one thought anything off it especially with BB-8 slamming into everything. It was too much, but I’m glad they were caught. It would have been too easy if they had actually succeeded.

Captain Phasma v Finn:

This was awesome but I do wish we would have seen Phasma sooner. I was hoping she would have had a bigger part in the movie but we saw her for like 5 minutes and then she was dead. But the fight was awesome! I was so engaged and I was thoroughly enjoying it. Finn is awesome!

Flying Leia:

I’m sorry but this didn’t make any sense to me. I have seen some people who were really excited to see Leia use the force but it was really cheesy. And I’m not exactly an expert but I don’t think you can use the force to fly. I thought it was too weird. I did think that this was where they were going to kill her off. I thought that would be the end although I thought that a lot throughout the movie.

Rey and Kylo/Ben:

I hate to admit it because I fought it off for so long but I think I’m a Reylo shipper now. I loved loved loved loved the relationship and the tension between these two. I loved the force bond between the two and out of everything they did with the new force abilities (see above) I thought that it fit. They are two sides of the same cling and I can see them going down the road of one can’t exist without the other. I loved the conversations they had with each other and how they learned and got to know each other and understand each other. They let each other know that they weren’t alone and I felt all the feelings. And when they fought with each other at the end I got the chills. It was amazing and I was Here. For. It. I can’t wait to see how this relationship develops especially after how they left things. I knew neither one of them were going to switch, it was too good to be true.

Luke and Ben/Kylo:

This relationship just felt wrong and I didn’t agree with how they took things. I get that Ben turned and Luke didn’t like it but the aftermath was wrong. I know I am repeating myself here but I don’t think there is any possible way Luke would ever try to kill his own nephew. He said it was a reflex but still. I do agree with Rey when she told him that Ben failed him not the other way around but I just don’t agree that he would try to kill Ben. That was one of my biggest issues in the whole movie. It felt really wrong. And did Han and Leia even know? Han told Rey and Finn that Luke felt guilty and that’s why he ran away but did they even know that Luke may have tried to kill their son? I just.... I didn’t like it.

Luke Becoming One with the Force:

I felt like this was a fitting end to Luke and I’m sure everyone knew that it would happen eventually, but it was odd timing. Why did he have to go? Was it because he used up so much energy making a ghost version of himself to go help the others? I thought that it was pretty cool that he was able to do that and my mind was bloooowwwnn when he was shot at who knows how many times and he survived and then again when Kylo sliced him with the light saber. But I felt like he would have had a more important role in the over all movie. I am hoping he will still be in the next movie especially since Carrie’s gone.

Leia:

It was hard watching Leia and I was holding back tears when I saw her come on the screen. She was amazing and her performance was amazing but I was wished she would have had a bigger role as well but she spent half the movie in a coma. I kept expecting them to kill her off around every corner because I thought they would have to. I kept grabbing my sisters arm every time I thought she was a goner but it never happened. I have no idea what they are going to do in the next movie but hopefully they will do right by her. I didn’t cry at all during the movie but I cried when I saw “In Memory of our Princess: Carrie Fisher”. I just felt tears running down my face and I hope they give her a good end in the movie. She deserves it.

Poe:

I liked seeing Poe more in this movie. I really like him and the leadership role he assumed despite of purple haired Laura Dern (can’t remember character name). They had an interesting back an forth with each other and I wanted Poe to be like “no bitch” and take over. He was really reckless though but I could tell it all came from a good place. He wanted to beat the first order but a lot of people were lost due to the choices he made. I mean they knew what they were signing up for but still. I really did like his character and his power to stand up against what he thought was wrong. I hope to get to know him better in the next movie.

BB-8:

STAR. OF. THE. SHOW. BB-8 was absolutely fantastic!!! Every scene they (how do you address a droid?) were in was amazing. The first one with BB-8 trying to fix Poe’s fighter, the one where they went off with that weird creepy guy and appeared in the ship, the one where they saved the Finn and Rose. Everything was great!! BB-8’s comic relief was genuine to me and fit in. The droids job in Star Wars is to help the people around them and lighten the mood. I loved every second of BB-8.

Snoke’s Death and Rey’s Parents:

These were two of the biggest questions everyone had going into TLJ. First, Snoke. Although I was really excited by his death, it didn’t make sense. People were all wondering who the hell Snoke was but we never found out. He was just kind of there getting onto Hux and Kylo Ren. He didn’t even serve that big of a purpose and that was disappointing, but I guess it was to set up the next movie where Rey and Kylo Ren, the last Jedi and the last Sith, will go head to head. But I’m still confused about his role.

Second, Rey’s Parents. This wasn’t that surprising to me. I know everyone was speculating about who her parents were but I knew they weren’t going to be anyone special. There is no possible way it could have been Luke or Han or any other major character. I was fine with who Rey’s Parents were and to me at least it felt like it fit. It’s nice to know her back story but this story is about Rey, not her parents (who were absolutely awful people).

Battle of Crait:

This was....interesting.

First, the rebels. There’s like 20 of them now and they seriously believe that they can stop that canon with those crappy ships. They were brave to try but it wasn’t going to go well. The only reason they weren’t all destroyed was because Rey and Cherie showed up with the Falcon and Luke showed up as his ghost self. And I don’t know why all of the First Order ships targeted her. Kylo told them to but some of them should have stayed with the fighter pilots. That was a stupid move. And Finn was ready to sacrifice himself to destroy the canon (which got me tears eyed because I love Finn) just to be knocked out of the way by Rose which almost killed her. And then Luke walked out and faced an entire army. I understand why Kylo told them to put all the guns on him but come on. He focused too much on his emotions and everyone got away. It was an interesting battle to say the least and even though I had a couple issues with it, it was still pretty entertaining.

Luke and Leia:

God, that scene between these two was almost too much to handle. It was the reunion I wanted and it was perfect. I wish I really wish they would have been together more but I thought it was fitting what they got. It was so sweet and it made me happy. And when he kissed her head it was just perfect. I love them both so much.

Rey Saves the Day:

Rey is just the best. I love her soooo much and I love when she came flying in with Chewie and when she used the force at the end to let everyone out. I loved when the joke of moving rocks came full circle and that was the best. And then the reunion with Finn and Rey. It was beautiful and I am reeeaaallly hoping that they get more screen time together next episode.

The Last Scene:

I don’t know where they are going to go from here. There are like 15 people left of the rebellion and I just don’t know how they will find a sufficient end to the trilogy in two and a half hours. I didn’t quite understand Poe introducing himself to Rey because weren’t they in the same scene at the end of the last movie and they never introduced themselves? But that was just a minor detail. I loved the ending with Rey and Leia. That whole shot of the two of them together it was beautiful but I really don’t know where they will go from here.

I know this is a jumbled up mess and kind of long but I had to get my feelings out there. I’m sure I missed somethings and this isn’t as in depth as I would like it to be, but it was a two and a half movie that I’ve only seen once. Like I said at the beginning, I really enjoyed the movie. I thought that it was fun and entertaining but I just didn’t think it fit in with the other movies. It didn’t have the feeling of a Star Wars movie. I really hope they bring it home in the last movie. I hope the go back to the style of TFA and make it an actual Star Wars movie.

TL;DR it was a good movie and I recommend it but maybe lower your expectations a bit.

Rating 6/10

Thank you all for reading if you made it this far and I would love it if you DMed me to talk about it!

[sunlitroom]

Gotham s3e19 - The Gentle Art of Making Enemies

As I watched it, and some random observations here and there.

Previously on Gotham.

Warehouse. It's really you, Jerome!  Isabella dies. Ed wants to destroy Oswald. The cultists were promised Jerome!   They don't work for Oswald no more, and Nygma is going to die.  Jerome and Lee have a chit-chat.  Oswald receives a fake kidnapping phone call.  Jerome sends the city a message.  The power plant explodes.

As always, long post will be long - reaaally long.  There are likely to be rambling digressions. Gobblepot may appear (although I welcome all shippers and non-shippers alike :)).  There will be naked favouritism and naked not-favouritism.  Broader comments at the end on plotlines and parallels and general direction.

Jerome's followers create havoc at GCPD, brawling with cops. Jim grabs one by the throat and starts starts to punch him – demanding to know where Jerome is.

Look around - he's everywhere

Amidst all the mayhem, a fire breaks out.  The cultist laughs and yells.

Tonight Gotham is awakened.

God - I hate these guys

Oswald is walking into a trap with two henchmen, telling them ensuring Ed's safety is all that matters

(Oswald - darling - where are your brains?)

Ed walks out from the shadows.  Oswald is overcome with relief, and hugs him, asking if he’s alright.  Ed tells him he’s fine.  Oswald gushes that of course he is and asks where they are, the people who dared to think they could lay their hands on him.  Ed watches him calmly, and tells him that he’s alone.

Ha!  Oswald exclaims.  He thinks Ed escaped, and calls him a scamp. Ed coolly asks if he brought anyone else.  Oswald replies that he didn’t, and Ed promptly shoots his henchmen, before pointing the gun at Oswald.  Oswald blinks in confusion.

I don't understand

Ed smirks.  

I know.  That’s half the fun

Oswald is still confused as Ed hauls him forward, towards the wreckage of Isabella’s car.

Oswald stares, open-mouthed and starts to lie

Whatever you've heard...

Ed hits him in a fit of temper, knocking him to the floor.

Isabella was my everything, and you took her.  And now I’ve taken everything from you.  Well, almost everything.  Not your life.  That ends tonight.

Revenge Ed also seems to be trying out a Batman voice.

Gotham is burning while the Court of Owls (Katherine and Jim’s shadowy uncle) watch.  If it worsens, they’ll be forced to step in. There’s an explosion.  How much worse do these guys need it to be? Shadowy uncle says the city will bend before it breaks, and that they should give GCPD a chance.  Katherine tells him his faith in him (presumably Jim) is touching, and possibly dangerous.

Back at GCPD, Jim is hearing reports about rioting, and issues orders.  There’s still no sign of Jerome, and Harvey says there’ll be no lights until tomorrow.  Jim says that this is ordinary citizens rioting, not just the cult.  Harvey says that no-one is in charge at City Hall, and that Oswald is MIA.  He’s been missing in action virtually all season, Harvey – this isn’t news.  Jim wonders aloud what it is Jerome wants – and then remembers that Lee was the last to talk to him.

Oswald is tied to Isabella’s car.  He’s still – seemingly – reeling with confusion.

My father appeared to me - I saw him

Ed tells him that was Clayface, and then snarls at him that ghosts aren’t real.  (I wonder if a resurrected Oswald will get revenge for that one later)

Oswald is aghast when he realises what happened:

You stole my father’s remains from his grave?

Ed tells him not to worry – Elijah’s at rest now: Ed left his body in a dumpster.

(An aside – this is one of the points that makes what happens later simply implausible to me. I think Oswald could forgive a lot – but his love for his parents has been repeatedly emphasised as absolutely defining for his character.  I would argue that this would be unforgiveable in his eyes)

Oswald sobs.  He says he understands that Ed is angry – but he forgives him

Ed loses his temper and tells him to just admit.  Oswald does.

Fine - I had her killed.  You should thank me

Oswald tells Ed that they both know what would have happened.  Ed protests.  He knows what could have happened.  Could have lived a happy, normal life.  Oswald shakes his head, face twisted, insisting that Ed would have killed her like he killed Kristin and then hated himself.

(An aside – and again, what? If we’ve seen anything it’s that Oswald doesn’t really understand Ed’s pathology.  He didn’t get why he’d kept Kristin’s glasses, he blithely signed him out of Arkham, he’s never seen Ed in one of his overtly ‘split’ moments, and he sure as hell wasn’t listening when Ed was spilling his guts about his fear of hurting Isabella.  But he suddenly has a fine grasp of his psychology?  Nope.)

Ed interrupts. They’ll never know now.

Oswald pipes up, his voice small, saying that he did it for love

Ed rounds on him angrily, telling him to shut up - love is about sacrifice, about putting someone else first – but Oswald would sacrifice anyone to save his own neck, even Ed.  He then outlines a stupidly elaborate acid/rope/ice trick.

Oswald pleads that he can change – the fact he loves Ed proves it. Ed has no time for this, saying that a man facing death will say anything to save his own skin.  He claims Oswald won’t change, because he can’t.

Leaving, he essentially tells Oswald to go to hell, as Oswald yells after him.  If I hear Oswald plaintively yell ‘Ed’ one more time this season, I’m joining the rioting cultists.

GCPD, where Lee is treating the wounded while being sullenly sarcastic with Jim.  She’s multi-tasking!  When he refuses to respond to this treatment, she has a moment of realisation, and begins to act professionally again.  She remembers that Jerome talked about killing Bruce.  She calls Wayne Manor as Jim leaves.

Wayne Manor, where Bruce and Alfred light candles.  The phone rings, but they wait too long to pick up.  In the meantime, Jerome and his followers silently appear in the room. Alfred is hit in the face and drops to the ground.  Bruce kneels to see that he’s OK, and as he does, Jerome leans in:

My my.  Look how big you've gotten.

Jerome struts around, cracking jokes

Nice place you got here.  You rent?

Bruce has no time for him. Jerome bemoans his attitude

Teenagers - am I right?  I remember those days – all those exciting new ideas about killing everyone you see.

He spots the glass owl. Bruce spins a tale to save it – but Jerome smashes it anyway.

Bruce asks what he wants to do.  Jerome says killing him is the last thing he remembers wanting to do.  He wants to slit Bruce’s pretty pink throat.  Bruce plays for time, buttering up Jerome’s ego about his showmanship that night.  He then says it makes killing him here pretty disappointing.  All that build-up – the lights, the resurrection – all his flair, style, panache – for this?

He tells Jerome that he’s Bruce Wayne….

I am the ruling elite.  My company keeps Gotham running.  Killing me should mean something.

Jerome catches on.  

You're saying I need an audience.  I know you’re just buying time to make an escape – but the point’s still valid

Jerome says it’s time to get the show on the road – but Alfred can stay here and be killed.  Bruce remonstrates, but Alfred tells him to go.  Bruce tells him fiercely that he’ll see him again. Alfred tells him

Carry on, son, carry on

Jerome pulls a face at this exchange.

Strangely intimate

As he leaves, he tells his skivvies to try not to get blood on couch, he might come back for that.

Oswald screams for help. A less than bright security guard frees him while Oswald loses his temper.  It’s not the most engaging scene.  Anyway, Oswald gets away due to Ed’s weakness for Pinterest murder scenes.

Wayne Manor, where the cultists are destroying things before killing Alfred. Alfred spots Jim in the background, and starts insulting the thugs as a way of giving away their positions to Jim.  He taunts the last one in such a wonderfully British way I had to quote it:

Come on then sunshine - don't be shy - your mother wasn’t.

Jim and Alfred take them all out and head off to find Bruce.

We see a distorted and hazy circus before Jerome pulls a hood from Bruce’s head.  He watches as Bruce looks around, his face twisted in disgust at the citizens being tortured as sideshows.  Jerome says that they’ll have some fun before the main event.

GCPD – Jim tells Alfred Harvey is trying to track Bruce.  Alfred tells him how Bruce bought himself time, and remarks that Gotham has given way to bedlam again.  Harvey lists places they could be – and Jim decides on the circus.

The circus, where Bruce is being made-up as a clown.  Jerome doesn’t find him funny enough, but rectifies that by stabbing the clown painting Bruce’s face, digging his finger in the wound, and painting Bruce’s mouth with blood.

Oswald is back home, looking for Gabe to kill Ed.

Butch and Tabitha appear, and Tabitha wraps her whip around Oswald’s throat. He demands to know what they’re doing there.

(An aside - I thought it was made pretty clear that Oswald knew Ed was going after Butch as revenge for Isabella.  Butch shows up hale and hearty and Oswald still doesn’t catch on?)

Tabitha says that they’re doing whatever they want at Oswald’s house – that he’s finished. Butch wants to know where Ed is. Tabitha reminds him that Babs doesn’t want Ed dead, at which Butch snaps that he doesn’t work for Barbara Kean.

Oswald’s personality emerges for a moment as he snickers at this.  He taunts Butch, telling him to stop pretending that he’s anything but muscle. He used to be something, but those days are past.

Tabitha approaches, and helpfully reminds everyone how repugnant she is by reminiscing about how she murdered Oswald’s elderly mother, and at how all Oswald could do was hold her as she cried and bled out – and that Oswald didn’t do anything to Tabitha in retaliation.

Yet – snarls Oswald

Tabitha sneers – telling him that he had his chance.  Butch smirks in the background

(An aside – has Butch forgotten that Oswald refrained from killing Tabitha solely out of deference to his feelings?  And is he seriously OK with Tabitha’s complete unconcern for killing Gertrud – even though her death weighed on his own conscience at the time?)

Tabitha tells Oswald to stop turning them against each other.  Oswald says he won’t go anywhere with them.  Butch knocks him out, and Tabitha complains that they’ll have to carry him now.

Circus with Bruce and Jerome.  Bruce asks what the plan is behind this.  Jerome says there is none. People just want an excuse.  The mother who wants to strangle her child.  The husband who wants to stab his wife.  They can do it. 

It doesn’t matter.  It doesn’t.

(An aside - I really liked this moment.  Jerome’s voice is very quiet and calm here, and it’s more chilling than a lot of the noisier stuff.  It’s also a neat way of showing the essential divide between Bruce and Jerome - idealism vs moral nihilism)

Bruce tells him he won't get away with it.  A few dozen brainwashed idiots can’t hold the city forever.  Jerome says he knows that.  Bruce asks again what the point is.  Jerome says the normal people he sees everyday – who clean his car, make his coffee, take away the trash  - they show their true colours when the lights go out.  They all want to open his rich boy veins and bathe in his blue blood.

(An aside – I do like the theme of Gotham’s fairly maligned citizens rising up.  It was played with with the Indian Hill escapees – the notion that the way the City treated its outsiders and dispossessed would come back to haunt it, but they abandoned it early on)

Bruce says there arre good people in Gotham.  But Jerome mocks him – they’re sheep and cowards.

Face it- Gotham has no heroes

Bruce makes a meaningful face.

As Jerome takes a turn on another torture sideshow, Bruce shoves him and tells him to get on with killing him.  Jerome is outraged at his cheating, and calls him a bore.  He takes a moment to staple his face on.  Bruce asks mockingly if it hurts.  Jerome staples his wrist in response.  Bruce manages not to flinch for two – which rattles Jerome – but breaks on the third.

Jerome laughs and moves on to the  main event

Jim and co pull up at the circus.  They’re going to go in before back-up arrives.

Jerome plays ringmaster. Bruce is wheeled out – tied to a pole. Jerome is going to fire a cannon at him, tousling his hair before getting started.

Bruce glances at his handcuffs, and pulls a staple from his wrist to pick the lock

Jim and Alfred are inside. Jim fires his gun.

Detective Gordon!  Just in time for the big finish!

The strike force arrives. Brawls break out.  Jerome still lights the fuse and runs.

Bruce picks one lock, drops the staple, and has to pull another.  He manages to pick the lock, and escapes.

Oswald is at Sirens with Babs, who is gloating.  He says he underestimated her, which she attributes to her great beauty.  He says that she used Isabella’s death to turn Ed against him.  Babs tells him it wasn’t too hard.  Oswald says the plan was to destroy everything and kill him.  Babs confirms this.  Oswald says that he hopes she’ll be happy in charge.  Babs comments that most of the families are dead., and says that they don’t need Ed anymore.  Oswald says it didn’t take them long to turn on each other.  Babs said it was a limited partnership.  If Oswald helps them find Ed, then things will be better for him.  If not, they’ll simply kill him.  He seems tired and resigned.

(An aside – I don’t really know why Oswald even humours this – he knows how the underworld works. There’s no honour here – and especially not with the likes of Tabitha, who seems to live for cruelty.  He would simply be dead either way)

Jerome hunts Bruce in a hall of mirrors- saying he won't hurt him.  It is a very striking scene, and works particularly well.

You ruined my show Bruce.  Hiding’s just gonna make things worse.  

But Bruce didn't come here to hide.  He wanted Jerome to follow him.  He’s going to pay for what he’s done.

Sirens, where there’s a phone in front of Oswald.  Babs wants him to call Ed and lure him here.  It’s Babs, Tabitha’s and Butch’s time to shine.  Although who’s left to see it is anyone’s guess.

Oswald replies that he feels impelled to refuse.  Butch threatens to beat up the small man with the bad leg like it would be some big achievement.  He’d get the information in five minutes.  Tabitha claims she could do it in three.  Butch whines at her interjections, and Barbara tells them to shut up.

She tells Oswald to reconsider.  He can live to love another day.

Oswald says he’s had a realisation.  Barbara tells him that he loved Ed and he betrayed him.  Oswald says he’s not sure now that he did.  He thought he loved him because Ed had loved him like no-one had since his mother (Oswald apparently still can’t see how Ed used his mother’s memory).  But Oswald killed Isabella nonetheless.   He wasn’t capable of self-sacrifice.  He says he is now, though, and refuses to call Ed.  Barbara asks if he’d rather die.  Oswald says he would, and isn’t that crazy?

It is crazy

Ed steps out from the shadows.  Oswald realises that they’ve all been in it together all along.  Somewhere, Fish is facepalming and planning several motherly lectures.  Oswald asks Ed why?  Ed says he didn’t want to just take everything.  He wanted to take Oswald’s belief.  He wanted Oswald to betray him at the last, so Oswald would die knowing he was incapable of loving another person.

(An aside - Which is…. really just irredeemably ugly.  And given that Ed was still referring to Kristin as Miss Kringle even after being a romantic relationship with her, and got his jollies cutting up her corpse – I don’t really think he’s the authority on who’s capable of love.)

Oswald protests.  He is capable of self-sacrifice.  He showed he could change.  He smiles desperately, frantically asking if this means he passed Ed’s test.  Ed, never at his best when he’s cocked up one of his schemes and realised that he doesn’t know everything, says that he doesn’t know what this means.

(An aside – what is this nonsense?  A fourteen episode arc to tell me that Oswald has magically learned to love after some sustained gaslighting from Ed?  This is not a new facet of Oswald’s personality.  He was willing to jeopardise his position as kingpin and dance to Theo’s tune to save Gertrud’s life.  He was willing to take the fall for Theo’s murder to spare Jim Gordon’s reputation.  He was willing to live as a servant out of love for his father, who wanted him to stay with his step-family.  He was willing to be demeaned by them while still entertaining the hope that they could be a loving family.  He spared Fish’s life when she affirmed their connection. He even spared Tabitha’s life because killing her would have hurt Butch.  Oswald is plenty capable of love and self-sacrifice.

But I’m to forget the entirety of his storyline to this point and believe that Oswald is only magically capable of unselfish love now?  Fourteen episodes that stranded two of the strongest characters in a frankly silly storyline for something that wasn’t even character development. What’s the next arc going to reveal? That Jim has a bit of a temper? That Victor’s quite keen on guns?  Christ on a cracker.)

Back to the hall of mirrors. Jerome’s having more fun than he expected.  He tells Bruce they make a good team.  Bruce spits that Jerome killed Alfred.  Jerome asks if all rich kids are this close with their butlers?

When Bruce doesn’t respond, Jerome tries another tack.  He says that if Bruce wants to be a hero – then he’ll give him a fighting chance.  Man on man.  He slides a gun across the floor for Bruce, but we see a flick blade in his other hand. Jerome tries to taunt him out again – but Bruce tackles him from behind.  

They box.  Bruce wins.  He pins Jerome on the floor, punching him repeatedly. Jerome laughs and tells him to let it out.  He grabs a shard of glass from a broken mirror and is ready to plunge it into Jerome’s throat - when he catches sight of himself in the mirror.  Jerome tells him to do it.  Bruce screams in his face (just like Jim with Eduardo Flamingo) – but walks away, refusing to dance to Jerome’s tune.

Leaving the hall, he spots Alfred – still punching random cultists.  They hug, and Bruce says brokenly that he thought Alfred was dead. Jim slowly approaches, clearly relieved and moved to see Bruce is safe.

Jerome also approaches. Jim literally punches his face off. Jerome collapses.  Everyone loses their appetite for about the next month.

GCPD – Jim and Harvey say that word of Jerome's arrest is spreading.  He’ll be sent to Arkham.  Jim wonders if he should have shot him.  At the door, Lee stares for a bit then leaves.  Jim stares back.  Harvey congratulates him for having punched a man's face off, and offers to buy him breakfast.

Wayne Manor – where Alfred is cleaning up a shell-shocked Bruce’s wounds. He talks to him gently, and doesn’t push for Bruce to tell him what happened. He tells Bruce he was very proud of how he behaved, and the man he’s become.  

Bruce confesses that he wanted to kill Jerome for a moment, not out of rage alone, but because for a moment it felt like justice.  Alfred acknowledges this without judging him, and points out that Bruce didn’t kill him.  Bruce observes that there’s a fine line between justice and vengeance. Alfred says he knew where that was and didn’t cross it – and that’s the first rule.  They talk about what the training is for – which they don’t know yet. but whatever happens – he’ll need rules. Bruce states absolutely that he will not kill.  Alfred makes him repeat it.  They go to work.

Court of Owls.  Katherine is speaking.  Tonight was close.  They could have lost Gotham for good.  They will act soon, and you will be called upon.  The camera turns, and we see clone Bruce, who says he’s prepared.  Katherine asks Shady Uncle if he’s sure, and that he knows that must happen if he (presumably Jim) refuses.  He tells her that no-one refuses the court.

Jim's at his apartment, having a glass of whiskey, when Uncle Evil Guy shows up at his door. Long time, no see.

Oswald and Ed at docks (Yay – I called this!  Oswald would wind up at the docks again.  But while Jim showed him mercy, and offered him another chance – Ed will show none. I had thought initially that it might play as Ed putting him out of his misery, but it really didn’t come across like that.  It was pure vengeance and punishment.)

Oswald is begging.  He tells Ed he loves him, and he can believe that now.  He warns him that killing like this will change him.  This isn’t like any of his previous murders – passion or self-preservation.

(An aside – I don’t think Mr Leonard was either, Oswald.  And neither passion or self-preservation quite cover what Ed does afterwards in keeping trophies, or demonstrating control over the corpses.  It’s hard to tell whether I’m just supposed to believe what Oswald’s saying, or think that he is genuinely deluded in his view of how well he knows him)

Oswald says this would be the cold-blooded killing of someone he loves.  Ed reiterates that he doesn’t love Oswald.  Oswald claims that they need each other, but really – while Oswald was made very reliant on Ed, this was not the case on Ed’s part. Oswald gave him a powerful job and a fancy home – but Ed’s not emotionally dependent in the same way, although he does care to an extent.

Ed’s enraged.  He snarls that Oswald killed Isabella. Oswald tries to interrupt – but Ed talks over him.  He wants Oswald to suffer like he suffered.  Oswald will now die for killing her.

Oswald then launches into a remix of the speech Fish gave him.  I do love when we see her influence on him.  He says that he created Ed Nygma.  Ed was a nervous, jittery loser – but he sees him as he is.  Who he can still become.  He can’t do this.  Ed is impassive.  Oswald sobs and wails, asking him if he’s listening, and begging him to say something. Ed finally speaks.  When he does, there’s hurt and exhaustion alongside rage.

I loved her Oswald.  And you killed her

Ed shoots Oswald in the chest.  Oswald stares, disbelieving.  Ed pushes him into the water and watches him sink – eyes still staring, hand outstretched and pleading.

Ed looks down.  There’s satisfaction at vengeance, and perhaps some horror at the fact that he has just killed his only friend.

General Observations

Oswald/Ed/Babs/Tabitha/Butch

I’ve commented throughout on this, but some additional thoughts.

Oswald’s Fish gambit falls flat because – well – Oswald didn’t make Ed.  Ed was a work long in progress before Oswald’s appearance.  His murder of Kristen, his subsequent breakdown, and other murders had nothing to do with Oswald.  Even after their first prolonged time in each other’s company at Ed’s apartment, it’s Ed who tries – unsuccessfully – to change and mould Oswald with his ‘love makes you weak’ philosophy.  

Ed rejects Oswald on his release from Arkham.  It’s Ed who provides Oswald with moral support after Fish spares him.  When he goes to work for Oswald - it’s Ed who pulls the strings, repeatedly playing on Oswald’s grief and loneliness to make him reliant, and it’s Ed who runs all his affairs.

So this idea that Ed looked up to Oswald has just never manifested in the script for me.  They kept saying it – but I never saw evidence of how or why.  They’ve really had very little influence on each other until 3, and then again – none of that was indicative of Oswald moulding Ed.  In fact, it had become confusing that Ed still talked at all about learning from Oswald, since we never saw it, and what we did see of their behaviour didn’t reflect it.

Last I checked, Tabitha and Butch definitely wanted Ed dead.  They just let him leave the Club with Oswald and drive to the docks?  

I was expecting a lot more Machiavellian backstabbing in the Ed/Babs/Tabitha/Butch plan, which never really manifested.   I was hoping Butch might turn completely, or that Babs might try to ditch him.  Maybe we’ll get more on this when they return – but it fizzled a little here.  I have residual interest in Babs – and want to see where she goes.  I don’t give even the tiniest of fucks about Tabitha and Butch.

Jim/Jerome/Bruce

Probably the strongest part of the episode.  Jerome is endlessly entertaining, and the back and forth between him and Bruce was excellent: Bruce is all principles, whereas Jerome has none.

Jim played second fiddle to Bruce tonight – but still came off well.  He managed the deployment of officers calmly, didn’t rise to Lee’s bait, rescued Alfred, and then punched Jerome’s face off.  I’m assuming the arrival of shady uncle will see him start to address the galloping father issues we saw in his hallucination.

Thoughts?