#SPN Then and Now

[rewatching-sam-and-dean]

My Commentary on Rob and Rich Reviewing (4x14) Sex and Violence

I was listening to the latest Supernatural Then and Now Podcast (The Siren Episode) and I had to stop it after the Rob and Rich review to write down my thoughts because it annoyed me so much.

The guys both thought the episode was okay, but a bunch of things “bumped” for them. This is fine, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion about an episode, but some of the things that “bumped” for them “bump” for me.

My thoughts under the cut …

Bump # 1 - The Siren turning out to be a man

So, both Rs had an issue with the siren being a man since the lore showed them as women, and I think, because in real mythology they are women. Though they conceded that the a male siren could be a thing too, it seemed to really bother them that the siren ended up not being about a sexual connection with the brothers (though Rich saw the flask sharing scene as flirtatious … because no guys have ever shared a flask, including, Dean and Bobby).

I’m sorry, but the siren targeting the brothers, and using a version of an ideal brother to get to Dean isn’t a plot hole or a “stretch” or something, it’s an interesting choice and it’s exactly the point of the episode. While many men are vulnerable to a pretty woman who is into them, Dean just wants Sam. He wants his relationship with Sam to be better. In particular, he’s so worried about Sam and insecure in their bond that he wants a Sam who likes what he likes but, more importantly, one who listens to him and doesn’t hide things from him. And I know I’ve written about this before on a previous post, but Dean doesn’t NEED the siren to be a hot girl; he can find one of those easily. He needs a Sam he can trust. That’s the whole point. The show is drawing the comparison between sexual intimacy/romantic companionship (usually one of the most desired things in literature/media) to the brothers relationship to show how much brotherhood matters to Dean in particular (in this case).

The way the male siren actor portrays its interest in the brothers, to me, is very much like it’s intrigued and excited that it found a high even better than the sexual desire that it usually feeds off of. When the siren feels how desperate Dean is for the bond with Sam to be fixed, it finds him more interesting than it’s usual target. Dean’s longing for Sam (not sexual) is even stronger than the sexual desire or romantic companionship that the siren usually feeds off of, so much so that the siren changes its entire MO to go after the brothers.

Bump # 2 - The Doctor sleeping with Sam (when she isn’t the siren) is weird

So, the Rs disagreed on the “bumpiness” of this one. Rob thought it was weird that the doctor would just decide to sleep with Sam (at work), while it didn’t bother Rich because … Jared Padalecki. Sound argument (in this case), Rich.

Still, the doctor is a little unusual, and her behaviour is clearly intended to be a misdirect, but the show does a good enough job of suggesting she had a bad breakup (or worse) and is now just sort of living in the moment, so her behaviour doesn’t bother me. Also, Sam is hot.

What is stranger than the doctor’s behaviour, for the audience who knows him, is Sam having sex with her I that moment. Not only that, but Sam is very chill when she’s hitting on him, where in the past, Sam has often been a little shy or awkward with women that he’s been attracted to or interested in. So no, this is not Sam’s usual MO to sleep with the doctor, especially when we know he and Ruby are or were also sleeping together. Sam is not acting entirely like his usual self. And he hasn’t been acting entirely like himself for a while now.

Bump # 3 - The Siren telling the boys to fight each other and saying the winner can “be with” him

I don’t know why they had an issue with this. The siren literally explains that it loves the rush of having people willing to do anything for it, even kill people they love. What the siren tells the brothers doesn’t matter because it’s not like it’s really planning to have a relationship with the brother who wins the fight. And the boys are already infected at this point, so it’s just giving them incentive to fight. It’s not sticky about the sexual-ness of people’s need for the siren, it’s about the desperation they have to be with it (in whatever way).

Bump #4 - Sam dismissing the Doctor after sleeping with her.

The guys were both bothered by Sam not bothering to say goodbye to the doctor, and they mentioned that it seemed sort of old-school (womanizing?). Rob said that Sam dismissing her was more like something Dean would do than Sam. I know that I already said this, but this is the whole point. Sam hasn’t been acting like his old self. This isn’t an accidental writing mistake, where the writer accidentally wrote Sam more like Dean. Sam is different now.

It also isn’t like Sam to call Dean weak, or ridicule him for being messed up from his experience in hell. Season 2 Sam would never, and Season 3 Sam wouldn’t either. Season 4 Sam has changed from the trauma of losing Dean, drinking demon blood, and having Ruby in his ear.

Also, to play devils advocate on myself, Sam has actually left towns before without saying goodbye to the girl he had a connection with, maybe not after sleeping with her, but it’s not wholly out of character for him to leave without saying goodbye (I’m not criticizing him for this). Also, I really don’t think that doctor was looking for anything more from Sam beyond hooking up in her office, so this doesn’t bother me much.

Final thoughts

Anyway, I’m not arguing that everyone has to love every episode, or even like all the ones that I do. I’m not even arguing that people need to like Sex and Violence because it really can be a little uncomfortable, and there is a bit of a sexual undercurrent to it all, even though that’s not the sirens intention with the brother. That’s also not exactly new on Supernatural. However, it’s weird to me that so many of the things that “bumped” for Rob and Rich seem to me like very deliberate choices by the writers, not careless mistakes or pointlessly out of character. This episode reveals a lot about where Sam and Dean are at this point in the season, both individually and in their relationship.

Granted, I have the benefit of watching the episode and knowing where it’s all leading, but this is what sort of bothers me about hearing people discuss the show who are doing it for a purpose and are probably only half-invested in the story. They miss things that seem like they should be really clear. Also, it’s funny when they find things uncomfortably sexual in relation to Sam and Dean (they didn’t outright say that, but I think it was implied in what they said) and act like it’s a surprise or out of place. Again, this isn’t new. They obviously listened to too many hellers if they didn’t realize that Sam and Dean are weirdly close at times or that the show makes some pretty blatant parallels between them and couples or makes quasi-incestuous connections between Sam and Dean.

I have nothing else to add here. This was mostly just a rant, but feel free to add your two cents if you made it this far.

[happilyfeatherafter]

So true Rob 👀 📚 (Then and Now)

Rich: [makes siren sound 🚨]

Rob: Sirens [more siren sounds] originating from Greek myth, their first recorded appearance is in Homer’s Odyssey.

Rich: D’oh!

Rob: [laughs] Not that Homer! Uhhh [laughs] Dean says it in the episode, I like the recurring thing that Dean actually is a really good reader.

Rich: yeah!

Rob: I think that’s an interesting throughline.

[dea-equitorum]

Breaking News from SPN Tehn and Now:

According to Todd Aronauer, in the beginning of season 4, Misha's voice he used for Castiel rattled his chest so much the crew thought his mic was broken.

[ellekess]

Listening to Rob and Rich struggle to understand "Sex and Violence" without the context of wincest is just 🤣 They're like, "It seemed like the siren was sexual with everyone? And he was acting very seductive towards Dean...but he was still a dude...and then he said he would be the perfect brother??" Yeah. Sorry if you didn't pick this up from a decade of con attendance, but you're recapping the Gay Incest Subtext Show

[goldenphoenix4]

i feel like the supernatural podcast would do well on tumblr tbh

[jensensitive]

text:

And John had another big secret. There is a place where hunters gather, and it's run by an old friend of his. Kripke reveals how that storyline came about. "Very frankly, we had a note come down from the mysterious and unnamed powers that be, that they wanted the boys to have a way-station. They wanted to develop a place where we could see familiar faces, where they could go and maybe pick up a case, or pick up information, etc. So we took the note and we considered it, as we always do And Bob Singer had this notion that I really liked, which was, 'What if it's like the cantina in Star Wars? What if it's a place where dangerous things happen and dangerous people cross paths? That's a really intriguing idea. And from there came the roadhouse. Then we had to populate it…

"We felt we'd spent so much time with the father son relationship, we wanted to see what a mother-daughter relationship looks like in this world, because we always try to make the story about family. So this idea came about for Ellen and Jo," Kripke continues, explaining the genesis of the Harvelle women. "Everyone would have expected that Ellen had some fling going on with John, so we didn't want to go there We wanted them to have a true and honest platonic friendship, but we also had to explain why John never told the boys about the roadhouse. And hence this terrible backstory of how John got Ellen's husband killed.

"Ellen brought a maternal energy for our world, which the boys have never had before, which I found was really interesting. Like a lioness, which is tough and badass and You touch my children, I will kill you.' Samantha Ferris really brought that character to life. She was everything you wanted the character to be - she was nuanced and complex and tough, yet beautiful and feminine.

"Jo was originally introduced to be a love interest for Dean," says Kripke, confirming fan speculation. "And there was supposed to be this growth of this character who rebelled against her mother and went off to be a hunter, and you could see this person harden and toughen as the season went on, which we actually ended up executing, but not the way we'd expected. I thought Alona Tal did an amazing job. She was likable and charming-everything she was supposed to be and more. I think we did her a disservice by misconceiving the character. We wrote her as an innocent girl who wanted to be a hunter, and that gave her this energy of leaping before she looked and doing all these things that Dean wouldn't necessarily spark to. She was just so enthusiastic and so girl-next-door about her approach to hunting. In hindsight, Dean wouldn't be attracted to that character- he'd be attracted to Jennifer Garner's character from Alias. He'd be attracted to someone who walked in the door, slaughtered everybody and walked out, and then he would say, 'Who's that? Alona played it beautifully, but the character wasn't playing as the love interest, she was playing as the little sister. And because that wasn't what we set out to do, and because we don't necessarily need a little sister character in our cast, unfortunately we phased out the character."

If the show's vocal Internet fans are representative of its general viewership, then it's safe to say the "little sister" character will not be missed. But Jo is not the only roadhouse denizen that didn't work out quite as planned. "Then we had the character [Ash.]"

[spn s2 companion, p. 14, 15]

text:

Jo's level of hunting experience wasn't the only element up in the air for Alona's first few episodes. "Eric Kripke had mentioned in the beginning that there was a possibility of making her a love interest [for Dean]," Alona confirms. "I adore Jensen Ackles. It would have been an honor and a pleasure…" But the direction the characters took produced a different chemistry onscreen. "We felt that there was tension between the characters. They made us very snappy toward each other, and that tends to come off as a brotherly-sisterly kind of relationship."

[spn s2 companion, p. 138]

--

Rob: So, at the end of this episode, we find out that your dad was killed doing battle with Jensen’s dad, right? With Sam and Dean’s dad. You remember that? (Alona: Yeah) Like on a hunting trip. And at first, I felt like we were gonna find out that you were like Sam and Dean’s, like Sam and Dean’s half sister or something. Cause, yknow, she was like– it’s something with John Winchester that I had this history with. So you’re thinking that maybe, yknow, your mom and their father had a relationship. Did you read– did you think that when you first read the script?

Alona: Honestly, I think that– If I remember correctly– again, because it was so long ago, I’m– there were a lot of life changes to this living thing called The Roadhouse crew, right? But when I first talked to Eric– to Kripke about it, he did say that I was… like a little– that that was a potential. That they were my– that I was like a little sister. (Richard: Oh!) Like a half-sister, and that we were gonna find out– that was something that could have happened. But they weren’t sure if it was gonna go there or potential love interest. He wasn’t sure what he wanted to do. I don’t remember if it was the network– somebody wanted it to be a love interest. But then, it would have been– He was amused by the thought of it being really [laughs] creepy– that they were going towards love interest and then finding out [laughs] that she’s a half-sister. I think it was a little too much for the network back then.

Rob: Yeah [laughs]

Richard: Shame on them.

Alona: Although, I thought it was a really– I mean, playing with a potential love interest, but never fully going there, and then finding out she was a half sister would have been a lot, would have been fun. Cause it would have led to this like “eughh” moment between them.

Rob: [laughs] It woulda been funny. Yeah, it woulda been funny

Alona: It would have been– it would have been really funny. (Rob: Yeah) A little ahead of it’s time perhaps, but um, but that never ended up happening, and neither did the love interest thing, so, yknow there’s that.

Richard: I kinda thought– I took the bait as a viewer, I thought you were gonna come out as a half sister. And I mean I know I probably would have known that, going to so many conventions, I would have heard that already, but nonetheless, watching the episode, I’m like, “Ohhh, they did– they did it, and they had a daughter, oh man.” [Rob laughs]

Alona: Yeah! Yeah! (Richard: So, fooled me) And it would have– that would have made perfect sense.

Richard: Yeah, yknow, Rob and I kind of bemuse– yknow, we think out loud a lot about what drives the decision making of writers, and lord knows we don’t know. But your character is one of the prime examples of “they could have gone so many different directions.” I mean like, and, and they could have been– there’s a parallel universe where you ended up being a regular on that show for fifteen seasons. Yknow what I mean? Like, your character, really is, uh, attached– and [the] Roadhouse could have become more of a home base set. Like, yknow, when you watch this season up now– yknow, later on they had [the] Men of Letters [bunker]– [the] Roadhouse, it definitely seemed like the one standing set the show had for a while.

Alona: It– I think that’s what it was supposed to be. I remember Eric mentioning that– I mean that, the character was supposed to go one for much longer– Jo and Ellen. It was– it was  supposed to be that. And back then in what now it seems like the stone ages, there were the fan forums. [...] They had the cw forums, and fans would go on and they– I mean let’s not sugarcoat it– they hated my character.

[...]

Richard: And you were an obvious partner for Dean. Yknow what I mean– that rapport?

Alona: Yeah, especially like season two, that was– that was where it was going. And that– that was– she was brought in there, and I remember Eric telling me like, “You are the female version of him. So act, yknow, how cocky he walks around, and he has all this like, the bravado of the Dean character.” I tried to have a little bit of that in Jo without making it too obnoxious, and it just was– it backfired. [...] The response of the viewers was not what was intended, right? It wasn’t what was expected. It wasn’t what the writers, and the brilliant creator of the show were wanting, so they had to pivot. And that’s only me assuming. I wasn’t in the rooms, right, but the way it pivoted was so parallel to what they were writing that I can only assume that it was influenced by-- a show that really does listen to its fanbase– which is a good thing! For the show and for the fans. Not so much for me.

[spn then and now, 2x06, 16:30 - 24:00]

[chaoticwistfulness]

[x]

[wincestismymiddlename]

Takeaway from SPN Then and Now this week.

On the Screenrant list of 10 Most Iconic Props in the Series and number one being Castiel's trenchcoat. It's not a prop, per Robin the assistant prop master. Number 10 on the list was Dean’s Amulet. Robin: I would reverse it. I would say that the amulet is probably one of the most iconic [props] to come out of Supernatural. And that amulet came from the pilot in LA and one one of them came up and we only had one for a very long time.

[laf-outloud]

Is there a way to see how many listeners/viewers podcasts get? I know I haven't even heard a single ep of the Spn Then & Now podcast so I def am not listening to TW one lol. But I wonder how its doing in general. They were off to such a rocky start (Jared anti on the crew, blank airspace where commercials would be, them literally and very obviously not knowing anything about the show even though they decided to do a whole podcast about it, etc) so I would interested to see how their viewership was. Also, who is funding that? Like I mentioned, the first few eps just had dead air where commercials/ads/paid promo would be and I haven't heard anything since about it but someone has to be bankrolling it... they wouldn't do that for free.

From the research I've done, it appears that only Podcast publishers can view total listeners, downloads, and subscribers. They've added a few videos to YouTube, so you can see the view counts on those. Unsurprisingly, the podcasts with either of J2 have views in the thousands and the rest are in the hundreds. I'm guessing that's representative of the difference that occurs for all their podcasts.

As for their funding, I'm not entirely sure how that works, but I know they do have advertisers, and they added a Patreon account that provides videos and uncensored versions for subscribers.

I do know they wouldn't continue doing the podcast if it wasn't making some kind of money for them, so I guess they have enough listeners to pay for it. (I suspect Creation might also be providing a bit of the funding in order to keep people interested in SPN and coming to cons.)

[whatareyousearchingfordean]

Jensen supporting his friends and listening to Rob and Rich’s podcast brings me so much freaking joy

[supernatural-rewatch-3]

I love Rob and Rich’s theory that if Dean kissed the frog then he would have a prince

[bisexual-winchester]

If you’re reading this and haven’t already listened to SPN Then and Now stop for 10seconds and go play it now.

I thought it was just going to be Rob and Rich watching and giving their opinions but nooo! The interviews are so good! Soooo much insider information and questions I’ve heard a dozen times at cons that they get actual answers on from THE SOURCES.

I’m sure a lot of you already listened but for those of you who are hold outs like me stop holding out. Also highly highly recommend for anyone who’s interested in the TV business at all.

[distractedducky]

When Dean talks about family in the last episode of the Winchesters- how he’s looking for his family how he wants a world where his family can live in peace- I don’t think he’s talking about The Winchesters.

Dean has complicated feelings about his mother and His emotions about John flip-flop every second of every day, depending on who he’s talking to and the shifting of the wind. he never felt like Samuel’s family, and he really didn’t care much about anyone else, but he cared about his people, his family. I think he’s talking about Charlie and Kevin, about Jo and Ellen, and Bobby. I think he’s talking about the people they’ve lost - the people they loved. I think he’s talking family that don’t end in blood and I think when he means a world where they can get their happy ending, he means a world where he can stop it from ever going wrong, and when it went wrong all started with the Winchesters. His family- they got trapped in the world that was Chuck’s story - so if he can stop yellow eyes, if he can change how is parents met, their connections to other hunters, if he can stop the deal that led to the special children if he can stop the apocalypse before it even becomes a thing then he saved them! then Kevin never becomes a profit, and he goes off and lives his life and Charlie never ends up dead in a motel bathroom. Claire is living in The suburbs and Jo’s father never dies, because John was hunting with him alone.  which means there’s no reason for the roadhouse to be burnt down years later, when they find themselves wrapped up again with the Winchesters . All the people they lost, all the people they saved, all of it come down to the story and I think when Dean says that he thinks he’s found the world for his family to get a happy ending. He’s not talking about John and Mary. He’s talking about all of them, the repercussions  of everything that started here, started with them, and if he can fix that, then he can fix everything. 

Anyway that’s where my heads been at.

I kinda hate Jensen for keeping me in this game I thought I stoped playing years ago.

But supernatural never let’s you go, does it? 

[teamfreewill2pointo]

Saw this on Twitter:

“Early release of the Then and Now podcast on Patreon, and this exchange happens:

Rob: “season 16 we might have room for [a story pitch].”

Misha: “Did you ask Eric about the reboot when you had him on?”

Rob: “No but we should have, I’m sure it’s going to happen.””

I wonder if now people will realize that they had taken out of context that moment when R2 were doing season 4 and it sounded like they had ruled out a reboot/revival. In the context of that conversation they were talking about 22+ episode seasons not happening anymore.

It seems the revival is in a very good place right now!

I just listened to this part of the podcast! I also thought it was funny that they said that half the audience raised their hands at Burbank when asked if it was their first time. That's exactly the estimate I had, but I was voted against by the party! It was interesting that Misha wanted to hear what Kripke had to say on it. There's some things I can't talk about in public, but I wonder how much Kripke is involved.