#SX-E5

[lumpyorganelle]

Enneagram Social Instinct (SO)

Summary of the Social Instinct:

Key words: connection, contribution, participation, adaptation, involvement, mirroring, attunement, cooperation, reciprocation, accommodation

(note: there's a common misconception about the social instinct being correlated to being extroverted or social. This is not the case, introverts (cognitively) can be a social subtype and even the most reserved or quiet individuals. The social instinct is simply the instinctual drive to connect, engage and contribute to others. In some cases, social subtypes can be most prone to social anxiety due to the heightened sensitivity of their position in the world)

Main concerns:

Maintaining the sense of value gained from participating in activities with others (be it group, family, community, friends, colleagues, etc)

to be part of something larger than themselves (social media is a great example of the social instinct, because we all innately are looking to satiate that need for contribution and involvement)

Main focuses:

to establish a social standing/position in society

building personal value, sense of accomplishment and security with others

to know what is going on in the world/community; can manifest as gossiping, world news, celebrities, events, politics, etc.

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Social subtypes are sensitive and attuned to the hierarchical social structure and group norms; emphasis on groups; 'out-groups', 'in-groups'

Have the capacity to form and sustain relationships over a long-period

comprehension of one's position and place (e.g 'am I a loner? Am I accepted? do I have value here?, I feel like an outcast, what do we have in common? Are we close? etc')

nuances of social environments, etiquette, cues, boundaries, status and power, behaviour, etc

being able to understand and sense impact of actions on others

What this can manifest as:

desire for acclaim/fame, attention, popularity, recognition, success, honour, leadership, appreciation, to have high social status, etc

How the Social instinct may manifest when unhealthy/distorted:

Antisocial behaviour, resentment over society and people, anxieties and self-defeating behaviours, overly preoccupied about self-image (to others), fear of exclusion or being devalued, avoidance of social endeavours, cynicism and distrustfulness, etc.

The Social instinct, however, is actually something much more fundamental. It is a powerful desire, found in all human beings, to be liked, approved of, and to feel safe with others. On our own, we are rather weak and vulnerable and can easily fall prey to a hostile environment. We lack the claws, fangs, and fur of other animals, and if we did not band together and cooperate with each other, it is unlikely that our species, or we as individuals, would be able to survive. Being able to adjust ourselves to others and be acceptable is a fundamental, survival based human instinct.

References:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Enneagram/comments/14bw32k/are_enneagrammers_instinct_example_thoughts/

https://thepracticalenneagram.com/instincts/social-instinct/

https://www.personalitycafe.com/threads/the-resource-thread-for-instinctual-variants-and-stackings.118168/page-2?nested_view=1&sortby=oldest#replies

https://www.reddit.com/r/Enneagram/comments/14cegz6/being_so_dom_actually_makes_you_less_social/

[sp6ghetti]

Enneatype 5 summarised!!

Core type-  Passion: avarice. E5s are cautious and value anonymity with what they share in order to maintain the peace and calmness they worked hard to achieve. They need this space to consume information about the world without having to participate in it. Fixation: stinginess. They have a huge thirst for knowledge, usually this will accompany knowledge on how to strategically control their environment. Trap: observer. The e5s fascination with the world comes from a place of anxiety. They want to know everything about life while refusing to really live it. Defence mechanism: isolation. To avoid emptiness and keep their self image of being knowledgeable, they isolate themselves from any painful or intense emotions. Instead they want to focus on their knowledge in hope to completely remove these thoughts. Virtue: detachment. To relieve themselves from their isolation, they will need to detach from their hiding place, experience the world and let go of the anonymity they so crave.  Key traits: The centrality of thinking, emotional detachment and feelinglessness, fear of engulfment, autonomy and self-sufficiency, hypersensitivity.

Subtypes-  Self preservation [sp]: Sp5s build clear walls around themselves to protect their safe space. They have a strong need for things like boundaries and dislike surprises and intrusions. Once they feel as though these boundaries are crossed, they rely on their safe space to retreat to. They generally strongly value control. Sexual [sx]: Sx5s are often more artistic than the other subtypes. They want to find the perfect partner they can share every part of themselves with. Even the parts they’ve suppressed for a long time. Because of this, they are often disappointed in the people they trusted in to be like this perfect person for them. Social [so]: So5s have this same desire to be able to share their ideas and thoughts with others, but this is much more group focused for them. They want to find people who they share interests with and bring them together. They are more obvious in their search for knowledge, but focus less on truly shutting themselves off.

Contradictions-  ESFJ, ENFJ, ESFP, ENFP, ENTP, ESTP, ESTJ, ENTJ, ISFP, INFP, ISFJ The main contradiction in e5 is extroversion. E5 is a very reclusive type, they tend to observe instead of participate and try. This contradicts with the inherent external involvement of any cognitively extroverted type. The second is partially the feeling dichotomy, this is due to their emotional isolation. The sensation dichotomy is also considered to be debatable due to e5s abstract thought process.  Types you might want to look into if you are on this list are e3, e4, e6, e7 and e9.

Compatible types- Self preservation: ISTP, INTP, ISTJ, INTJ Sexual: INFJ, INTP, INTJ Social: INTP, INTJ

[sxturnrjpple]

hirano typology analysis <3

okay, everyone! let's start off from this page first thing first.

as you can see he's typed estj 1w2 but let's go further in this:

estjs are te-fi si-ne axis based which means his te and his si need fi and ne to function (this axis is applied for ti-fe se-ni as well and goes both ways).

(for anyone who doesn't know how this works: cognitive function in a stack of 8 make a type AND it's shadow type (your "opposite" type) as you can see in the screenshot up there functions are set this way: introvert > extr. > intr > extr. OR extr. > intr. > extr. > intr.)

let's start with his dom-aux stack

honestly, i believe he's an estj as well so im going to stick with this typing.

his dominant function is Te, i think this guy has an unbearable amount of Te here 😭

up to now I've noticed he is:

- rational

- more in his head than his heart

- pragmatic

- focused on efficiency

- very responsible

- direct (says what he thinks in your face even if it might hurt you (for ex. like when he rejected kagi for the first time)

as for his Si, which is high as well, this is what I've noticed:

- respects traditions (doesn't mean he supports them but he has nothing against them)

- sense of duty and responsibility

- he needs structure and order

- he's loyal

- resistant to major changes

- stubborn

- tidy

actually about his dominant function (between Te and Si) i have something to say about his Fi in the tert-inf stack. i think he uses much more Fi than Ne so I'd move it to tert. position and put Ne in inf. that'd make him an istj tho. in the latest chapter we can see how he thinks it's "right" not to stop Kagi from moving on but it's not an action of pure morality since sensei's shown us his whole reasonment. we can see that it's more of a "rational morality" which in a in a typology aspect is clearly Te and Fi working together. Still, i think both an istj and estj typing are correct since there's only a difference in the functions positions (estj: Te-Si-Ne-Fi istj: Si-Te-Fi-Ne).

okay now comes my fav part of typology!

enneagram, tritype and instinctual variants!

im gonna note them here so I don't have to scroll up over and over again.

enneagram: 1w2

tritype: 152

instinctual variants: so/sp

alright, so. I'd make some changes here.

first thing, his enneagram. i think e1 is correct for him since e1 is a perfectionist who thinks they have some kind of mission, they're usually systematic and responsible (in his case his self-given mission could be helping kagi with his studies for ex.) while for his w2, i honestly don't know because e2s help others out of a personal gain (to feel better about themselves) which I don't think is hirano's case because he genuinely helps others even if he doesn't get anything in return. he could be a 1w9 in my opinion. type 9s look for harmony and peace and fear having their harmony shaken/broken which could be related to his change avoidance? i think it's surely better than 1w2 (since type 2s are subconsciously selfish and he isn't selfish at all).

tritype: i think it's correct, although I wouldn't type him an e5 since he's not shown us he likes to collect knowledge "just because"

instinctual variants: I don't think so/sp is accurate, he's probably an sx/so. from my point of view it's like he values his close relationships more, by this i mean it's like he's completely comfortable with only one person (which is kagi) and I wouldn't change the social typing

we reached the end of my analysis!

it's probably confusing since my thought process is very messy to begin with, I'm sorry if it seems like that 😭

cyaa <3

[blueopinions49]

Healthy/Unhealthy Type 5

Healthy Social 5

Milo Thatch (5w4 so/sp)- he rejects allot of the traditional notion about the E5 we usually see. He is open about his feelings and is extremely extroverted, always eager to share his knowledge . He is always able to express how he feels and live in the moment.

Barbara Gordon (5w6 so/sx)- Even at her lowest Barb is always capable of thinking of solutions. She's always there for the team and always open to helping others.

Dale Cooper (5w4 so/sx)- The most charismatic E5 in media. He was always up to learn about things and kept a very clear mind on what was going on in the moment. Always seemed to care about getting his facts right and was open to understanding others.

Unhealthy Social 5

Doctor Doom (5w4 so/sx)- I was very close to typing him as an SO3 but honestly after paying a bit more attention it's very clear he is an SO5. Dooms whole idea revolves around outsmarting Reed Richards and proving he is his superior drives him into obsession and isolation.

Beth Harmon (5w6 so/sp)- Her desire to be the best at chest drives her to obsession and as the series goes on we see her disintegrate towards 8 and eventually moving back to her normal self. In the end we see a Beth who has let go of her need of perfection in chest and just finds enjoyment in the sport.

Quan Chi (5w6 so/sp)- His desire for knowledge intertwines with his need for power and control. Eventually deciding to create and army of the undead and resurrect multiple people who have been long gone.

Healthy Self-preservation 5

Peter Parker TASM (5w6 sp/sx)- This version of Peter Parker is more focused on the look for knowledge and understanding. He is a bit less focused on the external world but rather his own personal understanding of his family. However he never rejected others and always stayed

Wednesday Adams (5w4 sp/so)- While she can be looked at as detached from others. In the second movie we see a Wednesday who clearly has her heart in the right place. She is caring and always looking for the vest for her family.

Ellie Chu (5w6 sp/so)- At the beginning of the film we see her reduce her self as much as possible trying to go by unnoticed. but as the movie goes on we see her become more open about her feelings and stop being afraid of creating connections with others.

Unhealthy Self-preservation 5

Donnie Darko (5w4 sp/so)-In the movie we see him spiral completely down and detach himself from others.

Walter White (5w6 sp/so)- Wanting to feel alive in the little time he has he decides to over indulge and let him self go. He disintegrates towards 8 a bit each season. In the end eventually loosing everyone.

Haymitch Avarnethay (5w6 sp/so)- Due to the effects the games had on him we see him make a slow move to 8. While he is Katniss mentor we see him improve himself and become more centered in reality.

Healthy Sexual 5

Simon Petrigrof (5w6 sx/sp)- In the beginning of F&C we meet back with him completely sad and focused on getting Betty back. He has comply withdrawn from others and grew to believe he didn't have ay value outside of getting with Betty. In the end of the show we see him make peace with Betty and moving on.

James (EOFW) (5w4 sx/sp)- He spent allot of time detached from others and due to this he believed he has APD. However when Alissa finds him they become close and form a bond that couldn't be broken. While their Journey has consequences they were able to come together to figure out in the end.

Alan Wake (5w4 sx/so)- While allot of his actions are morally dubious, his desire was always to share the stories he had to tell. And his love for Alice kept him sane in the dark place.

Unhealthy Sexual 5

Hannibal Lecter (5w4 sx/so)- His intense desire to have a relationship with Will Graham sends him spiraling down to the point of obsession.

Gendo Ikari (5w4 sx/so)- He completely withdraws from the world once he loses Yui and neglects Shinji in the process. He eventually tries to make the third impact happen in order to get over the core fear of enneagram 5.

Mother Miranda (5w6 sx/so)- She intended to substitute someone else's baby for her own...Yeah pretty self explanatory. Her desire to have that special bond with Eva takes her to dark places. Eventually neglecting her "children" this eventually causing all of them desiring her personal admiration and validation (dying for it too).

[rknchan]

pretty cures as enneatypes!

(typings are not taken from personality database, these are my opinions on precure's enneatypes and they might differ from yours)

e1 - madoka kaguya (sp 1w9) & minami kaido (so 1w2) e2 - megumi aino (so 2w1) & erika kurumi (sp 2w3) e3 - kirara amanogawa (so?3w2) & miki aono (so 3w2) e4 - homare kagayaki (sp 4w5) e5 - yuri tsukikage (sx 5w4) & ruru amour (sp 5w6) e6 - setsuna higashi (so 6w5) & hime shirayuki (sp 6w7) e7 - hikaru hoshina (sx 7w6) & love momozono (so 7w8) e8 - nagisa misumi (so 8w7) e9 - yuko omori (so 9w1) & hikari kujou (sx 9w1)

[shecelebratesmisery]

Most common enneagram mistypes (also by instinctual subtype) and short explanation for mistype

Type 1

In general: E3 (focus on competence), E4 (when unhealthy), E5 (focus on competence)

Sx1 (countertype): E8 (both have a forceful nature)

Type 2

In general: E9 (positive attitude)

Sp2 (countertype): E7 (positive attitude; childish disposition)

Type 3

In general: E1 (focus on competence), E5 (focus on competence)

So3 and Sx3: E8 (assertive attitude)

Type 4

In general: E2 (especially when unhealthy), E3 (especially with 3 wing), Enneagram 5 (withdrawn stance; especially with 5 wing), E9 (withdrawn stance)

Sx4: E8 (reactive triad; might mistype due to forceful nature)

Type 5

In general: E1 (focus on competence), E4 (withdrawn stance; especially with wing 5 or if sx subtype), E9 (withdrawn stance)

Type 6

Sp 6: E2 (dependent stance), E5 (especially with a 5 wing), E9 (attachment triad)

So 6: E1 (dependent stance), E3 (attachment triad; especially when unhealthy)

Sx 6 (countertype): E3 (attachment triad; especially when unhealthy), E4 (reactive triad), E7 (especially with 7 wing), E8 (reactive triad)

Type 7

In general: E3 (assertive attitude), E4 (frustration triad), E8 (assertive attitude)

So 7 (countertype): E2 (positive attitude; they both have a self-sacrificing nature which may be the cause of mistype)

Type 8

In general: E3 (assertive attitude), E7 (assertive attitude

Type 9

In general: E2 (positive attitude; especially if social subtype), E4 (withdrawn stance), E5 (withdrawn stance), E7 (positive attitude)

Main sources: Naranjo, Hudson and Riso, Beatrice Chestnut

Remember to always check basic needs/passions/desires when in doubt between two enneatypes! Enneagram is not as much as outward behavior as it is about your internal feelings. Checking integration/disintegration patters can also be useful.

Hope this helps someone! :)

[lumpyorgan4799]

Dennis Nilsen notes: 

“How to explain the irresistible compulsion to join the sea, to be part of it, to sink into the solace of its company? His mother would think him mad! A love for sea has never ceased to feed his imagination in the years since he left Scotland. “I am at one with visions of breaks in the dark wild sky,’ he writes. “With heavenly shafts of light searching the grumbling sea.” > pg. 51 || indicative of the SX instinct 

‘Dennis, however, rarely participated or joined in; still melancholic and drawn to the sea, he formed no close friendships with the children of his new neighbourhoods.’ 

‘He was, in the local word, a ‘Skowkie’ child, unsmiling and resentful of questioning adults, to whom he gave a clear impression of disgust and reserve.’ > 

Dennis confirmed that he felt cold towards the family  — there wasn’t anyone he had positive feelings for except for his grandfather. > 

‘In those days, I could hate my stepfather, Adam Scott very easily. I was, I suppose, very jealous of him having a relationship with my mother. 

‘I was a very lonely and turbulent child. I inhabited my own secret world full of ideal and imaginary friends. Nature had mismatched me from the flock.’ > Ni + enneagram image 4 + E5 influence 

In spite of Dennis having school-mates, he would often wander the fields and woods alone  — lost in his own thoughts and head. 

‘He felt inferior and ashamed; he did not dare approach him, but merely hovered in the playground watching him and trying to get near him, his legs quivering like jelly.”  > SO 4

‘He was a frail and skinny boy, very self-conscious, introverted, and shy’

. ‘then he must indulge his secret emotions in private, where the imagination rules  — not reality.’ > enneagram 5w4 

‘Dennis was aroused by the image of himself, but of himself only as a dead man. Love and death were becoming dangerously mingled in his mind, as he remembered the image of his adored dead grandfather.’ > image type 4 (idealism of own self). Quietly in the quarters of his mind, Dennis was dead, too. 

‘Dennis especially enjoyed the free ambiance of equality, which accorded well with his rapidly developing sense of idealism in political matters.’  

‘His mother recalls that he would stay up late listening to music and writing poetry. He was a moody uncommunicative stranger in the house.’ > strong BETA NF (EIE/IEI) 

‘So the endless search for companionship continued.’ > SX INSTINCT 

‘Motivated by a strong social conscience, he quickly became immersed in the task and it was not long until he was a branch secretary’ 

‘Work became an obsessive substitute for an empty life, and since he seemed unable to convey his concern for individuals in any way which they understood or could accept, he would devote his concern to the nebulous concept of mankind in general’. 

‘He was too keen, too impulsive, too angry; they wondered what deep irritations fed his manic eagerness.’ > high neuroticism (big 5) 

Dennis was no diplomat; he was impatient of the strategy whereby an important objective was attained by subtle means. > Te frustration 

in their view, he was volatile and excitable, and although they could not fault his work (indeed, he worked harder than most). 

He was not, and never would consent to be, submissive. On the contrary, he fought with ever increasing vigour to break, bend, or divert the rules which he seemed to think were being applied for his personal chastisement. > Enneagram 8 + Se (socionics) 

He was meticulously efficient and a workaholic 

his demeanour was confusing; he could be abrupt, short-tempered, impatient, and driven by a need to talk without pause, or even better to argue. He was passionate in debate. When aroused, he would be wonderfully sarcastic. On the other hand, he was at times docile, generous and kind. 

There were plenty of occasions when he generated real laughter. On the other hand, he was secretive and erratic. 

One of the most astonishing aspects of the case is Nilsen’s ability to go about his daily work with energy and enthusiasm, to go out for drinks, walk the dog, and even entertain people peacefully at his flat. All while there was a collection of bodies under his floor or cupboard. > low Si (socionics) 

[postsofbabel]

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[mind-quest]

Some head triad typings

5s :

Elon Musk : a basement dweller who made it out, legendary desintegration into 7 recently.. Check how he was like during childhood up to college to see that he's a 5 (531 so/sp)

Mark Zuckerberg : of course had to frame the creation of Facebook under universal reasons like anyone would to market his company ("I created Facebook to connect people"), but at its core social media is a tool to see without being seen (5 thing) and acquire private data about people (also 5 thing?), we were connecting well with just the phones before this masquerade... The Social Network is actually an accurate representation (539 so/sp)

Meryl Streep : Harder to see than the others but yes... sx/so 5

Albert Einstein : e5 icon. Might make a post explaining this

Mitski probably

7s :

Grimes : obvious if you watch any interview of her, she oozes manic pixie dream girl energy (sx/so)

Not Steve Jobs (he's an 853)

I'll keep updating this one

[indepth-mbti]

What's the explanation for the existence of the countertypes in Naranjo's theory? I'm currently reading Beatrice Chestnut's "The Complete Enneagram" and there's no word of where does this concept come from. This particular theory always sounded illogical to me, I'm very open to being wrong though so that's why I want to give it a chance, but in order to check for its validity I need to know why that would even be a thing.

This is a very interesting question, and I admit that I have been thinking about the counterphobic topic during this last year after re-reading Naranjo. I don’t really agree with his take on the counterphobic subtype, but I can see where he comes from.

The Enneagram is a triadic system strongly based on Gurdjieff’s the Law of Three: three instincts, three triads (centers of intelligence, harmonic groups, etc). Everything goes through triadic aggrupations. You’ll notice that for each one of these triadic formations, there is one type that doesn’t seem to actually match its triadic formation, for example:

For the Centers of Intelligence: The E1 rejects and limits the body centers, goes against it. The E7 rejects and avoids the fear center, it goes against it. The E4 rejects its need for an external image, it goes against it.

It really looks like it’s a pull and push system. From the very beginning Naranjo bases his theory in the Buddhist take of the human fall called “the three poisons: unconscious, aversion and craving”. And I think that this is the scheme that made Naranjo think about an instinct going against the very nature of a certain Enneagram type.

Is it correct? In my opinion, it is quite an inconsistent affirmation. It is true that, for example, the sp subtype doesn’t quite match the E2 nature, but for the E5 we’ll find that both the soc and sx subtype go against the E5 nature; so why it is the sexual subtype the cp one? I think that the cp implementation is a theoretical ad hoc addition that is meant to cover the holes in his Enneagram Subtypes theory.

I think that Naranjo’s mistake regarding subtypes and the final cp implementation is how inconsistent it is that the Instincts change that much the initial nature of the Enneagram type. This even goes against his original scheme of the human psyche that you can find in the Introduction of Character and Neurosis.

This is the triadic scheme of the conscious/unconscious according to Naranjo. Here, you can find again the obsession for the Law of Three: the passion and fixation that characterize each enneagram type, and - deep down the unconscious - the three instincts.

Naranjo thought that the “neurosis” of the Enneagram type was actually an interference in the instinctual life (here it comes the Freudian influence); but his take on the subtypes and the existence of the countertype just imply the exact opposite: that the instincts are an interference of the Enneagram type.

This is an inconsistency of Naranjo’s Enneagram of Personality. If the instincts take the secondary role of affecting the Enneagram type, you’ll eventually find that some instincts don’t match well with the trait structure that Naranjo uses to describe the Enneagram types. Due to this theoretical problem, Naranjo created the counterphobic subtypes.

Here, I have to agree with Luckovich’s take and say that in personality terms, it’s obvious that the instinct comes first and the Enneagram type is a result of your strategies to cover the instinctual needs. Of course, this doesn’t mean that Naranjo’s trait structures are incorrect or that his descriptions of the subtypes are not accurate.

[ladysbike]

KTMジャパンは、2023年モトクロスモデル7機種とクロスカントリーモデル4機種の全11機種を新たに発売すると発表。FIM MXGPの最高峰クラスで12年間8回ものワールドチャンピオンシップを獲得したKTMは2004年以降のMXGPとMX2で合計300勝以上をおさめ、AMA450X Supercrossでは過去8年間で5回のタイトルを獲得。

https://www.l-bike.com/topics/36916/

[sp6ghetti]

Enneatype 4 summarised!!

Core type-  Passion: envy. E4s feel as though something is missing in their life. Whether this is a person, thing or feeling, they feel like others have achieved this while they stayed behind. Fixation: melancholy. Due to this loss, they feel like they don't belong amongst the people they assume have achieved this thing they want. They feel disconnected and unrelated to those. Trap: authenticity. E4s believe that that what is missing can come anytime. When it does come, they can finally feel fulfilled and authentic. Defence mechanism: introjection. To avoid ordinariness and keep their self image of being authentic, they take external negativity directed towards them and internalise them in a way that helps them feel in control of these critiques. Virtue: equanimity. They need to allow themselves to be happy in the present and with what they have, this is called equanimity. And so, they overcome their envy. Key traits: Inferior self-image, focus on suffering, emotional sensitivity and empathic ability, aesthetic sensibility, push-pull pattern in relationships.

Subtypes-  Self preservation [sp]: Sp4s are stoic and learned to stay strong during painful situations. Sp4s are extremely demanding of themselves, they work hard to achieve what they’re missing. When this ends up stressing them out, they won't show or tell anyone. Their suffering is constantly suppressed, they hope to find validation and love because of how strong and enduring they are. Sexual [sx]: Envy is very present in the sx4. They feel as though they’re constantly made to compete with others they should be better than. Despite suffering from the inferiority all e4s deal with, this is much more socially suppressed in sx4s. They feel as though they must be superior or their efforts aren't worth anything. Social [so]: So4s are kind of the stereotypical e4s. They feel as though their suffering and pain is a part of them, while they do tend to talk about it a lot, this is often seen as their only trait which is not true. They are convinced something is fundamentally wrong with them and due to this constantly compare themselves to others in hopes to figure out what this is.

Contradictions-  INTP, ISTP, ENTP, ESTP, INTJ, ISTJ, ESTJ, ENTJ, ESFJ, ENFJ The main contradiction in e4 is the thinking dichotomy. Similar to e2, e4s highly value emotions and feelings. This doesn’t mean they don't value logic nor that thinking types don't value emotion, it just means they prefer one over the other. Another contradiction is Fe dominance. This is due to external emotion and a desire to please the group.  Types you might want to look into if you are on this list are e2, e3, e5, e6, e7 and e9.

Compatible types- Self preservation: INFP, ISFP, INFJ, ISFJ Social: INFP, ISFP, INFJ, ENFP, ESFP Sexual: INFP, ISFP, ENFP, ESFP

[azenta]

Why is it "not for nothing ESxPs and ExFJs are uncommonly 5 or 9"? And why is SO/SX uncommon for 9s?

The reason why ExFJs and ESxPs are uncommonly, and even unusually, 5s or 9s is because their entire cognitive process clashes with those core goals. I’d precise it would be uncommon to almost rare for them to be 9s, but unusual to almost doubtful if they claim to be 5s (even if not impossible either).

Core 5 and 9 are far more passive in their approach in contrast to ExFJs and ESxPs process. All their defense mechanisms also revolve around the worst cognitive tendencies both ExFJs and ESxPs can have. In fact, the core would always work against the healthy development of their cognitive process, like if it was almost a constant disintegration.

ExFJs

ExFJs process revolves around playing with interpretative rules (unwritten moral and ethical rules) so they can organize rapidly the environment (Fe) around what is best fitting according to what realistically works best or what would be the ideal best (Si or Ni), then see what is going around and see how it comes off or can possibly come off in the present moments (Ne or Se) to ultimately judge of the logicality and long term consistency of their approach and rectify momentarily and accordingly (Ti). They do so by being present into their environment and act on it. Therefore they are pretty active, even ENFJs thanks to Tert Se, and also controlling in a certain (unconscious) way. They want to define rapidly the “rules” and boundaries of the environment, for themselves and also “others” (IVs dependent), so they’ll also develop strategies that help them be the most efficient possible, to reach best fit conclusion(s) and simply help them apply those rules and boundaries.

ExFJs × Core 5

Their process asks them to interact with mostly people and to exercise a form of control upon the “people settings”. Therefore it highly clashes with the 5’s priorities which is about mental work to gather knowledge and expertise, and to keep a certain form of control but about their inner guidance vs the external influences (IVs dependent).

The only common point is both ExFJs and 5s seek control, but ExFJs seek to control the environment and by acting on it momentarily and 5s also seek control of and on themselves, their mind, to avoid being controlled by the environment. However, they do so very differently. 5s become expert of certain knowledges (many or particular knowledge => High Pi vs High Pe) to keep control by being competent and therefore independent of the environment. Therefore, 5s are inherently more passive in their way of doing things since they require the acquisition of “intellectual” knowledges. In contrast, ExFJs act first and then through their Pi guide Fe. A passive approach is therefore unlikely favorable for them, they need strategies that make them act on the external information, not their own mental world (1). 5s also desire to keep themselves in their mind as they want to avoid being confronted to their inner doubt which would be triggered by powerlessness resulting from a lack of competency/expertise. Thus, acting on the external environment is their last “step” to assure their competency and “control”. In other words, acting on the external world is not their priority at all, but their final goal like ExFJs ultimately aim to actualise Ti. Being exposed continually to the external world would be highly stressful and even unhealthy to 5s as it wouldn’t give them a frame to work on their ego patterns as they would continually be stuck into a mental loophole. They ultimately need to affirm themselves into the world (integration to 8), but like ExFJs through the development of Fe-Pi, then Pe and ultimately Ti, they also need to develop through their force (5s=> introspection, inner working, contemplation, mastering, etc.) to grow out of their patterns and become affirmative and active in the environment.

When ExFJs get into a consistent hermit mode or are always in their mind, constantly digging and nit picking information; it is when they either grip or have poor Ni. A core 5 would solicit at an (unhealthy) extreme ExFJs introverted functions, since to gather knowledge and master it like 5 cores do require a great amount of time in one’s mind or mental inner place. But ExFJs are still fundamentally extroverted in their primary approach, and their introverted process are mainly supports to their main approach rather than the default one, while it is the contrary for 5s. It would constantly pushes toward an unbalance.  In the end, an ExFJ developing security issues is way more likely to become a 6 or 7 because both either aim to construct a social environment they can rely on, which is Fe’s playground, or to continually focus on external factors and manipulate (aka control) those factors to always gain a sense of fun, pleasure and simply experiences. Both 6 and 7 approach fits more easily and healthily with ExFJs process than 5 ever will.

(1) Side Note: In comparison, INFJs are more often 5s because their approach is firstly to build an inner vision which require an immense gathering of information that is (and need to be) filtered progressively and slowly (Ni dom). They need time. ExFJs also need time to build their Pi efficiently, but since their Pe is higher and favored, they build their Pi way more quickly, and it is way more adaptable, and therefore they require way less time into their mind to attain what they desire. Also, ExFJs Pi is about supporting with a vision to attain Fe efficiency in the most conclusive way rather than building up an ideal unforeseen vision and then judge of it from general and shared rules like INFJs.

ExFJs × Core 9

On the other hand, ExFJs and core 9 are not as weird but still not the most likely “outcome” if the person happened to be an ExFJs. However, there are more similarities than with core 5.

What makes that combination unlikely is because 9s wants to be almost “non existent”, in the sense they don’t want to get implicated in anything to stay “independent” and free of any possible demand. They don’t want to get stuck into negotiations, because they don’t want to feel any needs to not lose their sense of autonomy. But ExFJs process asks to get involved with what is around in order to organize the environment the most efficiently possible, which involves to be at some point an actor in the environment to organize it as “it should be” (Si/Ni). Or simply put, it asks to give a shit about what’s going on, which 9s despise. Therefore, it clashes with 9s desire to not get involved in the world and ExFJs desire to actually get involved in the world.

The default 9’s approach (average) demand a form of constant “mind freezing” or never be in or even out of themselves, when ExFJs get into that kind of mindset it is when they Loop or even grip. Therefore, this core approach is likely to maintain unbalance extreme. However, in contrast to 5 core’s approach, 9s process still allow to go in either the extroverted or introverted processes, which allow more easily to balance out and so to have decent opportunities to develop properly.

Where they are alike is that ExFJs “efficiency” rely on a sense of “harmony”, or at least of compromising. Their process is made to grasp easily what will benefit at large the party(/ies) involved, or to judge of what is shared at large. 9s focus on harmony and “compromise” (2) as a way to tone down any demands (so they can keep themselves detached from the world). Therefore, 9s heavily rely on being mediator, on getting good at assessing a situation so they can resolve any conflict (aka demands that clash with each other). It is as a way to be sure nothing force them out of their independence; thus also so nothing ever become out of control. ExFJs process fit that way of finding the best fit ethical solution and by assuring a form of control upon the situation at hand.

(2) Precisions: 9s sense of compromise is highly dependent of their level of health. Compromise can rather mean to agree obediently just so people stfu and everything returns in “peace”. And “Peace” rather meaning to allow them to return in their state of denial of their own wants and needs to maintain their twisted sense of independence (aka detachment at this point). Of course, when healthier, it becomes “compromising” as they regain their true sense of self and come to understand independence is not related to detachment, but rather ask to acknowledge one’s needs => so they can answer those needs => then be truly independent since they are met => allowing balance and peace within the world (inner and outer).

ESxPs

ESxPs process goal is to gather as much possible information about everything going around in the present moment (Se), judge of it by their principled and logical formed framework of the world (Ti or Fi), then adapt it by judging through shared values or principles (Fe or Te) to better compromise their personal approach, to finally form the ideal vision or most likely outcome that can be brought from the momentary data (Ni).

ESxPs × Core 5

To have known ESxPs in my life, I can tell you the first thing they do is act. They move, they react, they just do. If they don’t, they are probably unhealthy. Of course, healthy ESxPs know to reflect before acting, however they are still very active people. They’ll simply be more aware of the consequences of their actions and be better in touch with how they want their actions to affect the world. So, 5s way of wanting to gather knowledge and contemplate it to master it share almost no similarities with the main process of ESxPs. One acts while the other contemplate.

Se dominance demands to explore the world, and contrary to Ne, it demands contact with the concrete aspect of it. 5s way is anything but about the concrete world, it is all about playing with those information within the mind. As 5s want to retreat from the world, not get exposed to it. They are insecure about the world and master many forms of knowledge as a way to “fight” the world or prove their worth, their competency through it (IVs dependent). Therefore, each other's goals become a nuisance to the other’s goal.

It is more realistic for ESxPs to become 6 and 7 due to their approach than a 5. An ESxPs 5 would probably be of the most unbalance kind and probably stuck with some form of Personality disorder as a 5 core would continually solicit grips and block healthy Se dom development and therefore all the stack’s development. It would always drag down the ESxP in a low health range.

ESxPs × Core 9

Again, core 9 is less unlikely than a core 5, but still not the most likely outcome if an ESxP gets stuck with a self needs and boundary problem.

They do have in common a sense of not desiring control on the environment, at least, not directly. ESxPs want to observe the world and “play” with it through what makes sense and matters to them. So it is not their main goal to modify it to their will, but their initial goal is rather for them to adapt in the world in a way that makes sense to them. This goal aligns with 9s desire to adapt themselves to other/world’s demand and wants.

Their directions of growth also both relies in a need to assert themselves into the world (people around them included) by understanding they can and need to play with the external rules of the “world” so they can better fit within it, or at least, can make place to what makes sense to them.

However, what fits the most are the loop and grip tendency of ESxPs with 9s unhealthy tendency or disintegration. Which say a lot with how this combo can be developmentally impairing. The loop of ESxPs fit with the 9s flaw of denying themselves, what matters to them, as ESxPs loop disconnect them to everything they inherently value. But also, like 9s who may not notice how they unconsciously detach to accommodate their own ego needs for independence, and therefore become selfish, apathetic and uncaring, so don’t ESxPs notice how their loop is also connected with their poor Ji development. It makes the Ji become generalized blindly, making their personal framework and rules generalized to the world around and then lead the ESxP to condemn other who don’t follow those personal rules through their Tert Je. In other words, it also makes ESxPs become very selfish.

What makes it so uncommon, even rare is that despite Se x Ji’s way of being more adaptive than controlling, the Ji is still about making decisions, and through its principles it eventually comes to want and try to shape the world through the Tert Je, and even inf Ni. Unless the ESxP is perpetually looping, an healthy to even average ESxP won’t let other tarnish their own colors (/logic or principles) and even try to influence the world and shape it through its own color, which 9s completely avoid and won’t admit until they attain important growth. Simply put, ESxPs are still very concerned about their internal rules, and even through looping, their “colors” somehow pop out even more forcefully while 9s somehow disintegrate into pure nothingness. It is only with very specific circumstances and timing that 9s unhealthy mechanisms or disintegration and ESxPs looping fit perfectly. And when it does, it is so hellish that it could impair the development of the individual for so long it might just suggest another core or cognitive stack.

So, simply put, there is a synchronicity between the ESxPs stack and 9s process, however this synchronicity gets lost through the development and simply need for the Je. which is the natural and healthy course of ESxPs development. And since Tertiary functions are always (overly) focused and almost gladly welcomed in one’s development, it makes little sense to actually go for the 9 approach as the Je will be almost embraced. What I mean is, ESxPs will like to bend general rules (Te like or Fe like) by playing with them just so their personal rules are applied and respected. They rather want other to submit to their rules than them to a general consensus. They only get slave of the general rules when they get unhealthy and deny their personal framework, which is a loop or even grip tendency. Therefore, having a core approach which implies forgetting their own needs, their personal compass is like preventing ESxPs from developing anything of their cognitive process literally. 9 as a disintegration for ESxPs makes perfect sense, but as a default approach, it contradicts the fundamental of even average ESxPs process.

This is why it is rare and questionable. I can’t say impossible, but I would have serious doubts if I’d cross such a type. It would most likely be a disintegrating ESxP 3, or maybe any other MBTI type lost in delusions (which is pretty common among this hell site).

SO/sx and core 9

The only reason why it is “uncommon” rather than common is because SO/sx is an instinct that pushes toward extroversion a lot, but 9s want to almost be “non existent” or make themselves the least “present” possible. And extroversion kinda push towards being very active and present into the environment you are, so it clashes with the 9s desire to “not be” an entity and individual of their own.

But I say uncommon rather than rare or unusual because 9s want at some point to merge and almost melt with others as they flee their own needs, and by being “one with others” they achieve that avoidance, and Sp blind instincts are by far the instincts that need and somehow melt with others the most as a way to respond to survival needs. So, it complements really well the 9s goal to become a part of everything and everyone without them needing “to be”, without them being an obstacle (aka potential to create conflict) due to their own personal individual needs.

I hope it answers your question. Don’t hesitate to ask for clarifications or ask for any other question. 

[blueopinions49]

Understanding Type 1

An intro to enneagram 1

Barbara Howard (Abbott Elementary) ESTJ 1w9 sp/so

Core Desire (Purity)-They desire the perfect ideal of morality. This deep desire to be clean of any moral impurity

Vice (Resentment)- The believe that others dont deserve what they have due to not reaching the standard they have set for themselves. 

Fixation (Wrath)- They internalize their rage and redirect it to “perfect themselves” and others due to seeing the world through an acceptable and unacceptable lens.

Wings

1w9 (The Idealist)- They focus on their own sense of morality without the relation to the other. Due to the w9 this type is more reserved from reality and interested on its own understanding and interpretation of morality. Unlike the 1w2 who are open with their anger 1w9s repress it in order to find peace within itself. The 1w9 is incredibly impersonal when it comes to morality and often cuts others while the 1w2 will be more interpersonal and open with others.

1w2 -(The Advocate)- The 1w2 focuses their anger into perfecting others and creating a safe space for others. With the 2 wing they look to foster others emotionally and focuses on polishing others morally. They will find ways to make their own moral agenda about the others unlike the 1w9 who makes it about the self. Will focus on the interpersonal aspects of morality and will not have trouble being emotionally expressive unlike the 1w9.

Triads- Gut (8-9-1)

They repress their wrath in order to maintain a whats right and correct ideal. They do this by creating boundaries for themselves and others. 

Harmonic Triad- Competency  (1-3-5)

They get results by being strict with themselves and others. Refusing to ever cut corners in capacity. 

Hornevian Triad- Super Ego (1-2-6)

Their needs are met through looking for moral stability and justice.

Object Relations- Frustration (1-4-7)

An emotional frustration when it comes to attaching themselves to others so they take a “motherly’ role and work as a beacon to light others way in life. 

Subtypes

Social (so)- The social 1 sees themselves as this prophet that brings goodness and morality to the world. They bring attention to everything that is good, right and just. They look to “teach” others how to be a good person through their understanding of morality. They see themselves as righteous and just; often they look to corrects others behavior and due to being a super ego type they see it as rational to perfect others. They believe themselves to be morally superiors to others. Unlikely to be mistyped however they are often seen as E5. 

Ex-Captain America (Marvel Comics) ISFJ 1w2 so/sp, Light Yagami (Death Note) ENTJ 1w2 so/sx and Katara (ATLA) ESFJ 1w2 so/sp

Sexual (sx)- As the counter type of 1 this subtype doesnt withhold their anger and rather channels it into benefiting others. Due to their interested relying on interpersonal relationships they'll look to reform others and polish those who are close to them. They express their anger in a more direct manner compared to the soc one who withholds it from others. While the sx and soc one sound similar the soc 1 will focus on the grand and bast of moral reform unlike the sx 1 who will focus on the interpersonal aspect of reform. They may look like E8 due to their comfort in expressing their anger. 

Ex-Ronald “Mac” Mcdonald (IASIP) ESFJ 1w2 sx/so, Bruce Wayne (DC COMICS) INTJ 1w9 sx/so and Omni Man (Invencible) ESTJ 1w9 sx/so

Self-Preservation (sp)-The self-preservation 1 focuses on the morality of the self. If the soc 1 chastises groups and others to perfect them and sx 1 focuses on the moral then the sp 1 focuses on the chastity of the self. This subtype is hyper critical over the self and internalize their anger to perfect themselves and rid themselves of their own wickedness. Unlike the soc and sx 1 they are more on the introverted side and is incredibly anxious about their anger and rarely if ever expresses it. Due to this they can look like E6s. 

Ex- Kikyo (Inuyasha) INFJ 1w9 sp/so, Alicent Hightower ESFJ 1w2 sp/so and Jill Valentine (Resident Evil) ISTJ 1w9 sp/sx 

Movements (Positive and Negative)

Move to 7

Positive: The rigidness they find comfort in is gone and they become more flexible and enthusiastic.  

Negative: Becomes hyper critical over the self to the point of self loathing.

1 MOVES TO 4

Positive: Will slow down to take time to process more complex emotions. 

Negative: They lose touch their true self and become angry and emotionally reactive to anything and everything thats around them. 

[froody-matriarch-of-bleu-cheese]

I am certainly an sp/so, am admittedly a relatively extreme sp-dom, but my so or social-instinct is nearly on par with my sp. It could be my fe kicking in, my judging functions are pretty clear to me so they can have an affect. I tend to think about my niche in a group even if I am quite awkward. I also relate a lot to the social E5 description quite a bit...

I am a big people-pleaser and while it takes me a while to open up and am selective, I do have a desire to be liked. Humans lack claws and fangs so they see safety in groups. 

“On entering a room, Social types would be immediately aware of the power structures and subtle ‘politics’ between the different people and groups. They are subconsciously focussed on other’s reactions to them-- particularly on whether they are accepted or not” (Riso-Hudson, pg. 73).

The social instinct, while people-oriented, avoids intimacy. I think this hits home for me, especially being an sx-last. Though when I was younger, so stuff didn’t come naturally to me. It had to be learned. 

[funkymbtifiction]

Hello! I've seen plenty of people claiming that INFJ e5 sp/sx cannot exist and even if they do, they tend to be subjected to severe Ni-Ti loop. I'd be glad if you could elaborate on that statement. If it isn't true, I'm curious to know what an INFJ e5 sp/sx would be like. Thank you!

5 is the type most intentional about emotional detachment in favor of total objectivity, so they are less often feelers than thinking types; and if found in a feeler, would indeed cause inhibited emotions (either repression of one's own emotions in favor of 'thinking' about their feelings instead of just having them, or shoving them aside to deal with them later). 5s can be emotionally sensitive in their own way, but it's often connected to their feelings of separation / being an 'alien.' They might liken it to being 'a brain stuck in a meat suit' as an INFJ, and would place an incredible amount of emphasis on their Ni/5 dark, twisted, morbid, complex, original thinking.

5s are also more detached from reality than other types (lost in their original concepts, and not interested in completion so much as exploration and/or fixation on a single point of interest), which paired with inferior Se and a lack of Te, would make an INFJ 5 pretty conceptually unrealistic about reality. They'd be lofty intellectuals, all about their inner world and concepts, emotionally detached and internal, all about attracting others through their original thinking, all ideas must be 100% 'from my imagination' (external concepts or ideas might taint my vision), and pseudo-autistic.

I don't do specific stacking examples, so I'll leave you there. Fictional example: Will Graham in Hannibal is an INFJ 5(w4).