#Wincest fuck right the shit off also

[soullessjack]

im high quick drop the selfshipshitpost and run

[my-prompt-dump]

Girl!Sam, Protective!Dean, and College

Wincest if you squint but it can just be them fucking with people.

AU so it's a bit OOC? But also I think they would do this just for a good prank.

Please no hate! Just sharing ideas for you all!

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The premise is they have a case and dean has to go undercover as a college professor (occult subject or some college sports coach).

It should have been Sam but she argued that she was already doing the research part, so it's only fair if Dean is the one to get into the school. (There's also the fact that Sam is still a bit bitter about the whole college and Stanford thing)

Dean eventually relented, stating he would die of boredom buried in books and at least the college has some hot girls.

Dean instantly became popular among the girls in the college with some even outright asking him out. He flirts back but can't go out with any of them.

Sam: We don't want you getting fired before the week ends, Dean!

Stupid Sam and always being right.

Dean always takes the Impala to the university and some girls hang out close to it in hopes to catch him in the parking lot. To flirt, to shoot their shot, or just to admire.

Sam: Just pick me up, jerk! Dean: Bitch, I'm swamped as shit here. I told you it would have been better if your nerd ass is the one going undercover! Plus you're the one with info so you come to me. Sam: Are you fucking serious?! I'm wearing heels, remember? Cos you said to seduce the poor intern in the library. Dean: Well, it worked, didn't it? Just get Cas to take you here and wait for me on the car. Sam: I hate you. Dean: On the car, Sam! Sam: I'll wait for you on the car, alright. Dean: What did you just say?! Sam: Nothing, jerk! Dean: Bitch!

And that's how Sam's day is going now.

A crowd has formed in the said parking lots. The whole place is littered with angry looking girls and also guys who are practically drooling.

They see a gorgeous woman laying sexily on the hood of their professor Dean's Impala; denim jeans, plaid shirt with leather jacket, sunglasses, and red lipstick. She is just sitting theret unbothered by the crowd and the attention.

Sam thinks that if Dean was going to be ungentlemanlike then she's going to be as unladylike as possible. And that means lounging on top of her brother's precious Baby.

Student 1: Huh. No wonder the guys are acting like dogs in heat.

Student 2: Isn't that Professor Dean's car?

A group of self-proclaimed popular girls (like seriously? Who labels themselves that in college?) who have been trying to get with Dean finally had enough approaches the woman.

Girl 1 (Emily): Excuse me, you can't sit there.

Sam quirks an eyebrow but doesn't move.

Sam: This your car?

Emily: Well-uh no. But

Sam: Then why are you telling me to get off?

Emily splutters, clearly flustered that someone outright asks her that instead of doing what she says. She huffs and thinks of the best excuse she can use.

Emily: It's my boyfriend's!

Sam had to cough to mask her laugh but she humours the girl.

Sam: Oh really?

Emily: Yeah oh! So get off before we make you regret it.

Sam chuckled but still doesn't move and that only made the girl angrier.

Soon Dean comes out of the school after getting stuck in a meeting with a professor that he was 80% sure is trying to get in his pants. He spots the crowded parking lot and walked faster.

He becomes angry at noticing that everyone is getting a little too close to his Baby and shouts at them which made students jump.

The girl spots him and sees it as her opportunity to try and fake date Dean and to reprimand the woman on the hood. Maybe this will get her in his radar.

Emily: Dean! This rude woman won't move from your car's hood even tho we kept telling her to! She's getting it scratched!

Dean, though, ignores her and walks up to the mystery woman.

Dean: Why didn't you just call me that you were here already?

Sam: Phone died.

Dean: We were just talking.

Sam: So?

God, having a little sibling is infuriating.

Sam: Besides, I was talking to your girlfriend.

She wiggles her eyebrows obnoxiously and Dean's reacted like how she expected.

Dean: The fuck you talking about? I don't have a girlfriend. Why would I have one when i got you here to be a bitch about everything I do.

He says it so loud too so everyone heard it. Sam laughed all the while Dean checks the car's condition.

Everyone's jaw drops because Dean knew this person?? And they were talking so casually. Is she his girlfriend??

Dean remains oblivious to the crowd's shock and turns back to Sam.

Dean: Did you walk here? Where's Cas?

Sam: No. Unlike you, Cas knows how to treat a woman and took me here so politely. He was just here a minute ago but then people kept piling up and-

Dean: That will happen if you sit there like a model on vogue magazine.

Sam: Flattering but also ew.

Dean rolls his eyes but moves to help her get down from the hood.

Seeing smoke practically coming out of Emily and the other girls' ears, Sam smirked and had an idea.

Once she's down, she instantly snakes her arms around Dean's neck and leans close to his ears.

Sam: See? That wasn't so bad, was it?

Dean: Yeah yeah. You're lucky you're cute.

Emily’s face turned beet red.

Emily: Dean, who is this..?

Dean looked at Rachel, finally noticing her.

Dean: A pain in my ass.

Sam: Speak for yourself.

Seeing some guys in the crowd eyeing her a little too closely, Sam decided to up the ante. She pressed herself closer to Dean, running a hand through his hair.

Sam: Come on, Dean. Let’s get out of here.

Dean noticed the lingering stares from the guys and his protective instincts kicked in. He pulled Sam even closer, glaring at the gawking students.

Dean: Yeah. And all of you! Keep your eyes to yourselves, or I’ll make sure you regret it. This is off-limits!

They drive off and Sam can't stop laughing as she explains the whole ordeal to Dean.

Sam: Your admirers are so territorial, dude. Dean: Shut up.

[onthewaytosomewhere]

Philip is quite frankly, fucked.

alright luv ur the last of this week's ficlets cuz I needed to make sure this was what it needed to be (since it's gonna link up with the big thing I'm working on)

WARNING: below this line lies implied future and past incestual activity of the brothers sharing boys variety - we're gonna call it afoxcest (alex and the fox bros) (superior to wincest) or FirstprinceS - we'll see - but if you do not or can not read this bcuz of that do us all a favor and scroll right by!!!

Philip is, quite frankly, fucked, he’ll admit it; Martha is laughing at him this morning when he has her over for breakfast to discuss how perfect Alex could be for Henry. Of course, she immediately realizes that Philip also thinks Alex is perfect. He isn’t even going to bother attempting to convince her that isn’t the case. She knows him as well as he knows her. They don’t have any secrets.

“I just need to hope Henry was his ‘impressing foreign boys’ self and not his ‘pissing the foreign boys off with his inability to be functional’ self.”

“Pip, that’s not fair; you know he’s struggling since your dad’s death. I know you’ve tried to help, but your Gran is a lot, and Henry has been getting the worst of it since then. Even if he has messed up, as we both know is possible your Gran was being a right shit forcing him so many places lately. You’ll just have to help him fix that. If you are truly convinced Alex is so perfect for him, or more, you’ll need to have a plan.”

How she never batted an eye when she found out that Henry and Philip have occasionally shared a man between them made him realize even more how lucky he was to have fallen in love with Martha. It’s not a thing they do often, less than they would like, but it’s not like they can find any random person. Their father’s illness did not make things easier in that regard. Besides dealing with the fact they may lose him, the person who helped their mother know who she was. He held their family together, and when he got sick, Philip watched their grandmother creep into more of their lives. He and Martha have attempted to divert as much of that attention off the rest of his family as they can by appearing to fall in line, but it has not been as successful as he would like it to be.  

Philip is brought out of his thoughts when Martha clears her throat and realizes he’s been staring at the table. There, he has the paper sprawled out, the picture of Henry and Alex at the diving competition that some photographer has snapped. Alex appears to be walking toward Henry with a smile that would make kings send armies to battle for him. Philip hopes it went well. He’ll find out soon; if not, he’ll help Henry fix it.

That afternoon, when Henry returns, Philip finds him in the music room at Kensington. He plops down the paper on the table next to him, and Henry looks up, startled, almost as if he’s expecting a reprimand. He instantly knows something must have gone wrong and hopes it’s fixable. He kneels in front of Henry, pulling his hands in his to comfort him, “What happened, Henry?”

“He's so beautiful, Pip,” the small, almost smile that tugs at Henry’s lips is sad, “But I’m certain I mucked it up beyond repair.” Philip gets up and pulls Henry to the nearby sofa, letting him tell him all the details, and starts thinking about what he needs to do to fix this and who he needs to contact to find out more about Mr. Claremont-Diaz. Henry begins to sob into Philip's shoulder. He soothes him, letting him fall asleep against him like their father used to do for all of them.

this can also be found on ao3 if you'd rather, they'll all be there as they get written

[stanfordsweater]

happy wincest wednesday! what's your favorite wincest ep for each season?

a big ask!! thank you for this one, i am going to have a very hard time deciding but it'll be fun to sort through them all--

s1: so, so many. i’m going to have to go with something wicked, for all the lovely understanding sam comes to about dean in that episode-- it’s fantastic watching him be so soft towards dean when dean tells him what happened, and it’s an ep where we see the seeds john sowed to shape the boys around each other. fabulously written and so fucked up. runner-up goes to faith for showing the way sam desperately works to save dean, and for “he was probably gonna die anyway.”

s2: WAAAY too many to choose from, so runner up goes to every single episode-- i’m going with born under a bad sign for this one, because i am weak like soggy paper when a character is unable to stop the one they love even when they probably really should. dean walked in on this:

and imagining what jo’s thinking in that moment, when she’s narrowly escaped sexual violence and death, and dean can’t help her because it’s sammy? 🤌🤌🤌🤌🤌

s3: time is on my side, for that scene where sam is talking about maggots while dean’s eating just to tease him, and he’s so delighted about it. also for the immortal corpse-brothers we almost got. doc benton is a fantastic villain who i wish they could have done more with, and i loved the way he tried to make them an offer they can’t refuse. so much excellence and “how are you gonna stop me?” UUUUGH 🐳

s4: fucking every episode, are you kidding me? this season is dripping in fucked-up dark romance between these two. dysfunction and desire galore, sam fucking a corpse because she reminds him of dean and he can’t function with his guilt and his need for his brother, dean’s betrayal and slowly growing resentment without being able to let him go-- if anything will convince people that sam and dean are erotically obsessed with each other, it has to be this season. predictably, i’m going for sex and violence. need i explain?

s5: season five is my least favourite season to rewatch 😬 going off my spotty memory from two years ago, i’m choosing the end for the conversation sam and dean have before the credits roll. <3

s6: you can’t handle the truth, for how desperately dean wants to believe that there’s nothing wrong with sam. truthfully, there’s a ton of great shit with soulless sam, but the scene where he lies to dean and then turns away and his expression just drops is in my top scenes of the entire show, with how dean is crying right in front of him so torn up over the last ep and so grateful that sam didn’t allow him to get turned-- and then the blow up at the end of the episode? delicious.

s7: another one that’s a little difficult for me, but i’m going with party on garth exclusively for the scene where sam and dean get drunk and silly together because i love it <3

s8: there’s a ton of fantastic wincesty moments in this season, but they’re usually in episodes where there’s a lot of other stuff going on. sacrifice is obvious, so obvious it’s cheating, so i’m going with goodbye stranger for so many reasons-- how delighted dean is when sam teases him about his porn addiction, and then his worry when he sees sam’s bloody tissue-- brotherly banter!! most importantly, this is the episode where dean says this:

there’s also that scene in taxi driver where we see how hard it is for dean to kill benny, but how he does it anyway just because he needs sam.

s9: i am everybody’s favourite season nine stan 🙏 i will forever be obsessed with this season for it’s heartbreak and all the wild punches it throws. i’m choosing blade runners for this, which is a super underrated episode. sam is pissed the hell off at dean, and he’s murderous with crowley, but he doesn’t let that stop him from saving his brother. the hints we get that sam isn’t giving up on their relationship in this episode set up the rest of the season as well as his unstoppable drive in season ten. the finale is my TRUE fave from this season, but blade runners tells the story in a fabulously subtle way.

s10: my, my, my. mark of cain my dearly beloved. SO much good shit. my rewatch is stalled about halfway through, so while i’d choose a later episode, at the top of my mind is the things we left behind for this:

HELLO???? there are so many choice moments in season ten for sam just being The Most, but the face cradling and the way sam goes right for dean and begs him to say he had to do it... kisses for all the writers.

s11: everything :D season 11 fed us SO good. going off of my season ten choice, though, i’m choosing safe house for sam bodily cradling dean at the end, with his huge sigh of relief when he has him in his arms, and for being the person dean sees. i mean, look at this romance:

gifs from here, go reblog it

s12: regarding dean because i’m on a huge protective sam kick in this post, apparently. sam is so worried ;~;

s13: a most holy man, for the super cute brotherly banter in that episode, and both of them looking sexy as hell. they for sure banged after that ep.

s14: nihilism, for the way that sam appearing immediately begins to break the fantasy dean’s trapped in, the way cas pleading with dean changes nothing, and the fact that one of dean’s happiest memories in his mindscape is from sex and violence??? proof that sam and dean fucked that episode #real

s15: controversial of course but carry on is all i can say because most of this season is bonkers.

[incesthemes]

go happily to the stone

this is my fandom sideblog. i enjoy literary analysis, and i like writing longform posts about my thoughts and opinions. i also write fics. (mostly i'm just bad at shutting up)

i mostly post about supernatural right now since it has consumed my brain. i tag everything i post by series, so please feel free to mute tags to avoid any spam!

supernatural-related tags:

my meta, analysis, essays, and comparatives (occasionally contained in the tags)

seasonal reviews

all liveblogging posts

general meta, analysis, alternate canons, speculations

i consider myself a samgirl, but i post a lot about both sam and dean (and i am a wincest girlie). i'm also a fan of the winchester family dynamics as a whole. everything i have to say about them should generally be taken as praise or at worst neutral evaluation; i'm not interested in character hate or negativity, and i love when they're all horrible to each other. peace and love 💖

i follow from @metanoeins :)

this is just a short about me/the blog section for those who care to know.

i'm an adult, i'm queer, and i am deeply fascinated by the grotesque and disturbing. i'm a big fan of gothic horror, tragedy, and bitter endings. i might come off a bit pretentious about the art i engage with, but i generally try to be funny about it and i do love trashy/campy/badly written art under a wide range of circumstances.

my serializd page

my letterboxd page

for the majority of my own posts, i don't consider anything in supernatural beyond season 5 to be "canon" in the sense that it affects my understanding or analysis of the show as envisioned by eric kripke. i still enjoy much of the show post-season 5 and discuss/analyze/post about it; i just think of it more like fanfiction than anything.

my ships are not necessarily romantic or sexual in nature. feel free to consider them as such though, because i will certainly talk about them using romantic or sexual language as the boundary to me is irrelevant. i tend to gravitate toward codependent relationships, and i really like otherwise unhealthy, fucked up, and toxic dynamics and portraying them as such.

i'm by and large more story- or dynamic-oriented than i am character-oriented, and while i may have characters i'm more fond of in a work than others it really doesn't make much tangible difference. i'm also kind of long-winded (no shit sherlock). anyway i hope this is helpful; thanks for reading :)

[zmediaoutlet]

Happy Wincest Wednesday, Z! Which ultimate wincest episodes do you think are the most illustrative and crucial, when it comes to Sam and Dean's relationship development stages throughout the series? Thanks <3

hello bulb, hello, and what a happy wincest wednesday to you as well! and also oh shit this is a tough one, but -- [cracks knuckles] fuck it, no over thinking, open up the list of all episodes on wikipedia, wincest goggles on brain off let's goooo

Pilot: obv

Bugs: suuuper important for how they each understand their relationship with John, which of course informs their relationship with each other

Route 666: Sam discovers that Dean is not actually a callous horndog, news at 11

Something Wicked OR Nightmare: Dean will do anything for Sam, news at 11

Croatoan: actually Dean will just go ahead and die rather than live without Sam, so that's... special.

AHBL 2: well, now he can prove that's so.

Fresh Blood: actually you're not allowed to be devil-may-care, sorry, you have to be in it with me.

A Very Supernatural Christmas: ...fuck, that means this is really painful. But it still matters.

Time Is On My Side: Sam will actually straight up become a monster if it means Dean will stay. (Dean: you WHAT??)

It's a Terrible Life: turns out that respite even in this horrible days isn't enough to keep us away from each other, love you forever, your panties really match your suspenders

Good God Y'all THROUGH Fallen Idols, watch in a binge: this hurts so much maybe we should break up -> oh shit that actually ends the world -> well I'm still mad at you -> okay you can be mad, but you can't be mean -> you're right, love you, partnership and respect uber alles

Swan Song: obv

Appointment in Samarra/Like a Virgin: yes, it is worth this, it is worth anything, to have you back, I love you so much

The Man Who Knew Too Much: I'm not leaving my brother alone out there

Hello, Cruel World: Stone Number One

Torn and Frayed: we'll break up with our significant others because we value this partnership more than short-term happiness

Sacrifice: I MEAN, OBV

I Think I'm Gonna Like It Here: I said I don't put anything before you and I meant it; you said you wanted to live and I really hope you meant it

Do You Believe in Miracles?: "I lied." / "Well, ain't that a son of a bitch."

Paper Moon: it doesn't matter as long as I have you back (redux)

Book of the Damned/Werther Project/the Prisoner: sure, let's destroy the world, who cares, we're making sure Dean's safe

Into the Mystic/Love Hurts: I will carry any burden for you and I mean it. I mean it, forever.

And actually -- that last moment, in Love Hurts -- "I got it, Dean." -- that's... everything. Dean believes him. Dean knows. There are actually more great !! moments in the arc of their relationship after that, but from that very moment the marriage is stone-solid. Dean told Sam how scared he was of Amara and Sam accepted it and reassured him and that was -- it. There's no faltering, from that moment on. Even if later they get in some arguments or have internal conflicts, that specific moment of pure trust and acceptance is THE MARRIAGE for me and I will bask in it always, forever and ever, amen. Thanks, canon.

[goshen-applecrumbledore]

Read living in gods blind spot again yesterday and just. It really has everything I love about Wincest. The fucked up wrongness of it all, "how can it be so bad when it feels so good", the horror of realising that its the both of them. Mwah. And the ENDING SCENE. Its so intimate and so intense and the bending over backwards trying to justify it when they both just want the other. AND THEN THE BOMBSHELL OF SAM GOING TO COLLEGE?? I'll be thinking about that for the next century. Anyway. I did actually have a question about it. The beginning fight scene and the sparring is written so well, I wondered how you tackled that? If I were to write something like that I'd forget who's arm is where so fast. And do you have any (head)canons on how Sam and Dean fight, what they share in fighting or how they differ?

hello! this is so kind, thank you. I have a huge soft spot for that one. the only other weecest I've written was early on in my spn journey and with God's blind spot I wanted to try again to really get at the MEAT of the thing (link for interested parties, shameless self promotion). I do think I flubbed the shit out of the ending though, but I just didn't know how to end it and it shows.

nobody has EVER brought up that fight scene so that's super interesting to hear!! I've never thought much about how I write fights, so, this is all off the cuff

I really like.. verbs? this isn't news but good verbs are the backbone of writing. moving the action along, etc. short, punchy verbs can be really powerful without being too purple or verbose about it and I think they become more noticeable in scenes where the action is very much ACTION, like a fight, so maybe it's that.

to your point about remembering who's where, that can totally be tough. I think you run the risk of over-explaining if you try to keep TOO close an eye on it, which is something I constantly have to edit out of my own work. stuff like... "Sam took his right hand and lifted it and put it on Dean's shoulder, curled it into a fist in his shirt and pulled to swing him around--" etc etc, which is fucking exhausting to read. you could instead do like "Sam grabbed Dean by the front of his shirt and swung him around." quicker, matches the pace of the action and stuff. I operate under a policy that if you can get your point across in fewer words, that's always better

on a way simpler note, I also just really like fight movies, so I imagine the action as different shots. I am picturing The Raid in my mind.

re: your question about headcanons, I don't actually have any headcanons about how they fight or how it differs from one another, only that, as always, I wish the show showed us more little tidbits about how they actually live their lives-- seeing them train and spar or work out, stuff like that. you don't have a body like Sam's when you spend 12 hrs a day in a car.

EDIT I read that sparring scene again and it's also from how my husband likes to wrestle me as a form of bullying. that's where those specific moments are from. the hooked ankle and the shoving. lol

[uglyscrawl]

for the ask game - 4, 12, 21, 26 :)

4) Are there any writers that inspire you?

tons! my attention span for sitting down and reading physical books has withered and died over the years but I still grab onto sentences and passages I like from all over the place lol. the writing in Succession is obviously wildly inspiring to me. I really like Catriona Ward for her creepy crawly prose and Gillian Flynn (duh) for her antiheroines (Dark Places is my favorite book of hers which is a controversial take - I liked it a lot more than Gone Girl.) I have such a soft spot for T. Kingfisher (Ursula Vernon) for her dark worlds, though historically I've dinged her books for pacing and characterization issues. Karin Slaughter writes reliably engrossing crime thrillers which are like candy to me. "I'm Thinking of Ending Things" by Iain Reid was an INSTANT favorite for me when I read it and I need to try his other books - they're sitting neglected on my shelf lmao. the only Grady Hendrix book I cared enough about to finish was "The Southern Book Club's Guide to Slaying Vampires" and I did Not rate it favorably overall because it was riddled with problems... HOWEVER he can write a great gross-out horror scene. I have to give him that because I love that shit. there was one scene involving like a cockroach and an ear canal that I remember more clearly than anything else in that book lmao.

12) Tell us about a WIP you’re excited about.

I have 2 primary wips rn and they are: A) The Shiv Fic, which I feel like I've been putting off for ages bc I'm worried I won't get it right lmao. but I wanna do shivrome dynamic exploration soooo bad and also crack into some Shiv character motivations that are too close to home for comfort :)

and also B) fuckifng wincest in 2023!!! their dynamic is so rich in s2 though I have to get my teeth in it again

21) Favorite pairing to write for? (platonic or romantic!)

kenrome is my favorite rn love those fucking freaks so much. I can't adequately summarize why which is why I need to write whole ass fics to infect you with my brain worms

26) Is there anything you’ve wanted to write, but you’ve been too scared to try?

ORIGINAL FICTION. I've spent the past 5 years at least waffling abt it. I'm so scared I'm not a talented enough writer to draw people in without their preexisting investment in someone else's world to build on top of. and naturally bc I'm a neurotic perfectionist this means I've barely tried at all so I don't have to confront the possibility of failure.

[gendertroublemaker]

Hello

My thoughts on Ethel Cain and what artists own us in general, a lot of this message is her old tumblr Q&A where she wasn’t shit posting (she did a lot of that)

Anonymous said:

i'm so SO excited to see how golden age and inbred will bleed into this trilogy you've been talking about. it feels like i've seen ethel cains back story, her deepest fears, her emotions and feelings. but i don't know whats actually happened to her yet, or will happen to her. but i know i connect with her, but i need to see what ride she's taking me on.

She answered:

I always say Golden Age and Inbred don't fit into the trilogy but they honestly do in a way. Ethel Cain isn't me but she is in a way. Those EPs are just my experiences from when I was younger so they're hers in a way too. Everything moving forward will have an actual story that's tied together but those two EPs do fit in in a way.

This stuck out to me in a way it’s someone processing their abuse and that could be the incest they were subjected too She has said before that she hates when people make her too much of a persona that she writes about real, traumatic experiences that shouldn’t be romanticized. lot of people get off on their abuse and I know that makes people angry because it doesn’t give off “perfect victim mentality” but some victims want to read more into it, write about and sing about it to have some form of control.

Anonymous said:

Mother what was your thought process while writing your song inbred? I know it tells a story and it's so wonderfully written. I think it's something some people couldn't handle listening to because it's SO intense. It resonates with my trauma.

She answered:

i was stuck inside my house because of how bad the winter was here and i was really angry at everything around me and i just wanted to make something that i could just scream out in frustration. i made it out of anger towards a lot of different people who have wronged me lol. i love when other artists do that so i wanted to try it myself

I don’t think Ethel owns people any kind of explanation of what she has gone through but she flags it with hints and off hand comments that shouldn’t be ignored (I will explain further down)

Something a tumblr user posted before that I think of: you mean the artists who write about the rotten and the wretched and the unhealthy and the abusive enjoy digging into fictional relationships that are just that

This sums up a lot of what I want to say but to actually explain my point: She shipped Wincest in high school that’s just one of the posts other than the clearly sarcastic one you posted as evidence. I tried to find anything else but couldn’t. Again, artists who write about fucked up shit have for sure read or were interested in it. I think people want clean and in-your-face explanations for everything in art, but we’re not owed that, and most of the time it feels like they are hand-holding. To be disgusted by art and say that it makes you uncomfortable, unhappy, upset, or angry is one thing, but saying the artist is a bad person because of it is just weird and controlling of media. To step on the freedom of artists—how they express their feelings because you don’t agree with their method, because YOU have been through it and it doesn’t align with the way you think it should be expressed, is not an excuse. You are not owed anything from artists or anyone for that matter. Personally, I have also been a victim of this kind of abuse, but I am the opposite. I delved more into it and got obsessed only in a fictional way because everyone has the right to process what they’ve gone through in their own way, and they don’t have to be clear and clean about it; they can be messy and scream and make you feel sick if they want. And even if they aren’t victims themselves I still enjoy it if it’s done well and not fetishized (THEIR ART not the art they consumed) which you didn’t think her music was until you decided shes “not a victim” you said before that you loved or liked it so I’m guessing you found the way she touched the subject to be tasteful before deciding she’s actually fucked up for mentioning a movie about incest or a ship. Did you expect someone who writes about those things not to watch or read about it?? Not everything has to be personally related to be talked about, fictional incest has always been around and it’s one of the oldest forms of storytelling; that should say something by itself. Although you don’t like it, it doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be written about. Artists don’t have to condemn everything they do; you should be able to pick up on that from the text. This applies to many other stories like “Lolita,” “120 Days of Sodom.” Richard Silken was intrigued by toxic, unhealthy, possessive relationships and that’s fine because art and stories aren’t always there to make you feel comfortable or good or pure. They can be unsettling and not personally affected, but that doesn’t mean we can’t criticize it. (You aren’t criticizing the art, you are hating on the artist.)

For example, “A Little Life” has a lot of themes of abuse and violence but mostly seemed like trauma porn that wasn’t well-written. I was glad the main character died by the end because it’s not well-written or tasteful story, It was like watching someone fall down a mountain with no meaning behind it. I see that as more fetishizing of trauma than any of the artists I mentioned. Ethel didn’t just have themes of incest but a lot more (abusive families and relationships) and now is she fetishizing it because she didn’t say “hey I been through this” ? to be clear i think artist should be freaks and weirdos without begin accused of supporting what they make, if anything it produces a lot of complex discussions and ideas and emotions it makes a lot of people feel seen and understood

Please think of this as a fruit for thought and not an attack, reminding anonymous because I don’t want to be yelled at lol

U rlly sent me all that….. Jesus fuckin Christ 🤦‍♂️ stop being a condescending little cunt and fuck off. U bitches rlly need to stop sending me asks abt this OH MY GOD. Literally I am a victim of incest so shut ur mouth

[bustyasianbeautiespod]

Episode 78 Transcript: The Supernatural Episode with the Greatest Material Impact in Crystal’s Life

[intro guitar music]

G: Hello! My name is Grey. C: And my name is Crystal. G: And this is Busty Asian Beauties, a Supernatural commentary podcast where I, someone who has seen the show several times... C: And I, someone who only knows the show through social media, discuss every single episode of Supernatural from start to finish. Also, we are both Asian. G: Both Asian! For this episode, we will be discussing Season 4, Episode 18: "The Monster at the End of This Book," written by Julie Siege, directed by Mike Rohl.

C: Of all the Supernatural episodes in the world, this one had the greatest material impact on my life, because when Dean ordered a burger, I thought, "I want a burger." [G laughs] and then I paused and went out and I bought a burger, [laughs] and that's the most I've ever done because of a Supernatural episode.

G: Amazing.

C: So, a win for the burger industry. Written by Julie Siege.

G: I think this episode is fascinating because this is like, the third episode in a roll. Is that a statement people say? Third thing in a roll. A roll. A roll? On a roll.

C: Yeah, it's "on a roll"? Like, Season 4 is on a roll? Yeah.

G: Yeah, it's the third one that's like, just one plot in the episode. [C: Yeah.] I mean, can we consider "On the Head of a Pin" one plot?

C: Yeah, yeah, I think so. It's the plot of who's killing the angels.

G: Yeah. And like, yeah, there was like, Sam's like, drinking demon blood, and it does feel like a little bit like a self plot, but not really. It’s the same story still. And “Terrible Life” is obviously a very one plot episode.

C: It's self-contained. [laughs] So self-contained that Sam and Dean do not appear to have lived it at all in this episode.

G: I know. Isn't that absolutely insane? But in this one, it's super fascinating, because this one is vehemently plot in comparison to the last episode. [C: Yeah.] But it's also like, so- the story is so simple in comparison to "On the Head of a Pin." [C: Mm-hm.] Nothing much happens this episode, and it goes by so quickly. Did you feel that way, too?

C: Not really.

G: Because when I was watching "On the Head of a Pin," when Sam finally busts out his demon-killing chops, I was like, "Damn. So much has happened already." And then you check the time, and it's like, almost halfway- like, just a little bit after halfway through or something. Here, it's like, "It's just the first 10 minutes of the episode, right?" And you check it, and it's about to end. So I don't know it. It feels different. Also, this is just like, an iconic episode for Supernatural just by virtue of what it introduces, what it does.

C: When is Chuck God?

G: 11.

C: So wait. So like, when do we see him next?

G: Like, this season.

C: Right, right. Because he puts a hand on Castiel's shoulder as blinding light comes through the window. No, but like, okay, like, we see him at, like, the fucking, Supernatural fancon with the Wincest role players, and he's still like, Chuck the author then? And then we don't see him, for like, 6 more seasons, and then he's God?

G: The thing is, it's never clarified whether he was always God, like here- He was just a writer here and then got possessed by- you know, I don't- I'm not sure.

C: I mean, they know that he's a prophet. Wouldn't the angels know if he was God? Wouldn't you be able to sense that shit?

G: Bro, they had this like, necklace that lights up when God's around, and they were like, "It's not lighting up. Therefore, God is not around." And then in Season 11, the question was like, "Wait. If you're God, then why is the necklace not lighting up?" and then Chuck just like, switches like, his hand up, and then it lights up, and he was like, "I turned it off." [laughs]

C: Okay.

G: Supernatural DGAF. [laughs] So like, if you're asking "If he's God, why can't the angels sense him?" it's because he turned that shit off. Yeah.

C: But I don't think he's God right now because we see him alone as well.

G: And he's still a- he freaks out-

C: And he's still being like, a guy, so.

G: Yeah. I also really don't like the idea of that Chuck is already God here.

C: I think it's interesting if he's already God and like, deliberately hid that part of his memory from himself or something.

G: I think it's fascinating if, like, he deliberately hid that memory or like, he forgor. I think there's something to God-

C: Oh yeah, if currently he's fully aware that he's God, and he's like, "I'm just doing this because I'm a sicko," [laughs] it's not very interesting.

G: Yeah, it's not that interesting to me. Also, I mean, I think maybe if it was like, Chuck author and then Chuck God later, that transition happens a little bit around Season 7. Because I think the way prophets work is that when one dies, another comes to being- comes to prophecy or whatever. So Kevin-

C: Uh-huh. When Kevin shows up, Chuck gets taken over by the God instinct.

G: Yeah. And the implication should be that Chuck died, or whatever. Like, stopped being a prophet or whatever before Kevin shows up. I think Chuck is in the 10.05 "Fan Fiction" episode, though. [C: Oh, yeah.] Sam and Dean does not see him, but he's-

C: He's watching the musical, uh-huh.

G: And he's like, "Nice one, guys" or something.

C: So I feel like he's God by then, [G: He's already God.] because he's being a sicko when he claps.

G: Yeah. He's a sick bitch. He likes freak sex.

C: Doesn't he tell Metatron-

G: Everybody that he's bisexual? Yes.

C: Yeah. [laughs] [G: Wonderful.] I assumed that it was like, as Chuck. Like, Chuck, the author fucked people of like, multiple genders, but like, him, like, as God, fucked people? Well, I don't know. I guess him as God fucks Becky. Or was that a-? Whatever. We'll never know. [laughs]

G: No, but like, that's what I'm saying. That like, the idea of Chuck that appeals to me the most is like, he is God here, but like-

C: Right, he turned that off.

G: - something happened. Like, he forgot. Or, you know, like, he's not- he's not aware. [C: Yeah. Yeah.] I just think that also jives in better with the concepts of like, "Yeah, God does not care about us. God does not." And it's like, "Yeah, probably." 'Cause like, he chose to like, forget all that shit and like, hang out here on Earth and like, actually did forget all that shit. Fascinating guy, this guy.

-

C: There's no "Then" sequence this episode.

G: Yeah, no, "Then" sequence. It's just Chuck sleeping, I suppose. Wait, I'm supposed to ask what you knew and shit?

C: You're supposed to ask what I knew about the episode.

G: Yeah! You're derailing our sacred podcast format! [C laughs] Well, what did you know about this episode?

C: That they meet Chuck and they find out about the Supernatural books and the Winchester gospel, and that he is a prophet, as of now, and that there would be some kind of a situation where Sam is in danger, and Dean's begging Cas for help, and Cas says something about how "I can't help you. But, by the way, if a prophet was in like, a room with like, something, then there would be something with an archangel, blah blah blah. Just so you know... [both] why I can't help you." [G laughs] and gives Dean a sly little look out of the corner of his eye that I have like, five gifsets of that saved to my phone, I think, just 'cause he looks really good in that scene. So yeah. Those are the things I know.

G: My only thought that at time, like, after Cas decides that he's gonna let Dean in into the archangel plot, and when he does that like, look of like, moving his eyes only or whatever. [C: Yeah.] I was like, "He thinks he's so cool!" And he fucking is. He literally fucking is so cool. Like, good for you, Cas. [laughs]

C: How cool does he think he is?

G: What's wrong with me? And also him. I think I hauve Covid. [both laugh] Like, I'm literally just thinking of Cas's face in that scene, and I'm like "[giggles] Oh my god!"

C: It's a good face.

G: Yeah. How cool does he think he is?

C: I don't know. I feel like I swing between "Cas is very unaware of himself as an individual because he just considers himself part of Heaven, so he doesn't really think about his fun one-liners and dramatic appearances," and like, "he's practicing that shit in the mirror." [laughs] Like, I don't know which of the two is true to me.

G: I actually am a big fan of Cas just being like this. 'Cause like, Supernatural, the show about- Well, not about. Maybe the show that is so about. [C laughs] Well, whatever. A show about like, being like, you know, performing masculinity or whatever, and coolness, and being just like in the movies. The idea of Cas just being like that even without all the having to put on a show and everything does appeal to me.

C: Yeah, yeah, I think he is just like that. Well, now, there's no "Then" sequence.

G: Chuck, as we said, just sleeping. And he is having a dream. Like, the dream is like, just flashing of scenes of Sam and Dena. I tried to figure out like, what episode the scenes are from, or what whatever.

C: I didn't bother.

G: I couldn't figure it out. We cut to a comic shop. Comic book shop. Sam and Dean are entering. They are wearing their FBI outfits, but with coats this time. They approach  the counter, and they say that they are Agents DeYoung and Shaw, and that they're investigating something. And what they're investigating are like, really, really generic shit. Like, "Anything strange, are there flickering lights?"

C: I'm glad there probably wasn't a real case in this building because they immediately abandon it [G: Yeah.] to chase down the author that made them have washboard abs on the cover of his books. [laughs] Like, I hope no one died in that building because they decided that they had other priorities.

G: After Sam and Dean go like, "Are there any like, cold spots?" The guy's like, "Oh, I know what you're doing. You're LARPing." And Sam and Dean are like, "What? What are you talking about? What is LARPing?" And the guy's like, "Oh, come on. Like you don't know. It's live-action roleplay." And this scene did annoy me a little bit because if this guy did believe that Sam and Dean are actually LARPing, he wouldn't do everything that he does in this scene.

C: Yeah, like show them the books and shit. Uh-huh.

G: Yeah. Like, he wouldn't be like, "Oh my god, you guys are LARPing like these characters in this book series. Come on, I'll tell you all about it!" [C laughs] Like, they're already LARPing it, bro! [C: Yeah.] But whatever we need a way to get Sam and Dean to figure out what the fuck is going on. The guy is like, "I know the book you're copying. Let me show you!" And the book is a book series called Supernatural. "Two guys use fake IDs with rock aliases, hunt down ghosts, demons, vampires." And he goes, "Ah, what are their names again? It's Steve and Dirk? Sal and Dane?" [C: Boo.] And then Sam's like, [deep voice] "Sam and Dean." [C laughs] Boo. [C: Boo.] Society if it was Steve and Dirk, though. Like, I think that's real fun. Will Sam ever be a Steve? I don't think so.

C: But Dean could be a Dirk.

G: I think Dean could be a Dirk, yeah. I think Sam will always be Sam 5ever [C: Yeah.] just because I love the implication of the name Sam and Samuel.

C: What is the implication?

G: Oh, the meaning. It means like, "God has heard."

C: Oh. Slay.

G: The guy shows them the copies of the books, and it's like, very, very, very much so in the bargain bin.

C: Like, the font size on the summary on the back? Like, it's giant. Like, it's trash, this book is. [laughs]

G: And yeah, it's called Supernatural by Carver Edlund.

C: Why did they get to be in the pen name? Like, did the writers fight over this?

G: It is fascinating. 'Cause this is written by Julie Siege. Shouldn't it be like, Kripke something? [C: Yeah.] Blank Kripke? Maybe they were like, "If it's Kripke, it's like, too on the nose, too obvious, whatever." I mean, Julie Siege cannot make it her name, so it needs to be fucking Ben Edlund and Jeremy Carver. BOO! I'm just kidding. [C: Boo!] It's fine. BOO! [laughs] Boo.

C: I don't know. Hasn't Sera Gamble written more episodes? Like, I don't like her, but I'm surprised that like, "Gamble" isn't in there.

G: Yeah. Isn't Julie Siege and Sera Gamble the writing team that broke up?

C: No, it was Raelle Tucker.

G: Oh yeah, Raelle Tucker!

C: Yeah. Tucker- wait. Tucker Gamble is like, that's like, a name.

G: That's a name, yeah!

C: Yeah. Tucker is more of- is a real first name. At least, I think it's more common than "Carver" is.

G: Yeah! [laughs] Imagine looking at your fucking child and being like, "Okay. And now, your name will be Carver." [laughs] Like, you're raising- [C laughs] this is like, Hannibal levels of shit. [both laugh] Like, what?

C: Is Hannibal- is Hannibal Hannibal's first name? Yeah. [G: Yes!] 'Cause his last name is Lecter. Yeah. His parents chose that shit. I mean, I guess he's like, not from an English-speaking country, though, right?

G: No no no, Hannibal is an actual name. Yeah. Hannibal is an actual name.

C: Oh, yeah. Like Hannibal Buress? Whatever his name is?

G: Yeah. He's a comedian. Have you seen that post that's like, "I can't believe they didn't figure out that Hannibal's a cannibal. His name is literally Hannibal. Like, it's one letter off." [C: Yeah.] And somebody was like, "Will's name is one letter off away from kill. So like, how did they not figure that out?" [both laughing] So true! The cover of this book is fucking-

C: Yeah, Sam and Dean are both shirtless. Neither of them look like themselves.

G: They have long hair. Both of them, or just Sam? Both of them, right?

C: Both of them. Yeah, but like, they're like, blond, so like, they can't both be Sam.

G: They are blond. And you know what? I hate this cover mostly because it implies that in the book, Carver Edlund does not differentiate the fact that Sam has long hair and Dean has super cropped, semi- What do you call this fucking hairstyle?

C: How would I know?

G: Crew cut? Dean has a crew cut.

C: [laughs] Yeah. But we see other illustrations, and he drew Bobby completely fine. [G laughing]

G: Wait, what are these other illustrations?

C: Like, it like, there's like, a bunch of quick flashes.

G: And Bobby is just a normal guy?

C: Yeah, Bobby looks like he does, so.

G: [laughs] I mean, there can also be the interpretation of this as like- 'cause, I mean, many writers have said this. A lot of the times, they're not in charge of the promotion of the book. [C: Cover art.] And the promotion does include the cover art. So maybe this is like, it's out of Chuck's hands how the cover is.

Like, Dean reads like, the back of the book, and it's Episode 1 of Supernatural. Hell yeah. Why is that- I mean, I know why that is the beginning, because it's when Dean goes to Sam. "Dad's on a hunting trip. Hasn't been home in a few days," blah blah blah. [C: Yeah.] But like, does Chuck just know like, everything that happens? And then he's picking out the nice cases or whatever? Or is it like, as Supernatural is happening, it's happening in his head?

C: Well, he writes these before the thing happened.

G: Oh, yeah, that's true. I am curious what Chuck's visions of Sam and Dean are. Because if this is Chuck!God, I think it does inform how God sees Sam and Dean's story. Like, it's not a constant surveillance of like, every single thing that happens.

C: Yeah, it's just the interesting cases.

G: Yeah, the highlights of their day or whatever is what he sees. And I think that does inform some of the stuff that happens in later seasons. But yeah. [C: Sure.] They got all the copies of Supernatural that they can. And we get the title card! And the title card is like, the cover of Sam and Dean being hot, long-haired, blond men.

C: Hot and close, yeah.

G: And it's Supernatural, by Carver Edlund. Yeah.

-

C: Well, we cut to the motel, and I think people care about this shot [G: 'Cause Dean? Yeah.] 'cause it's Dean reading "Route 666" on the bed, and like, people really like when he reads in bed on his side.

G: [laughs] You're so mean! "People really like when he reads in bed. Like, on his side."

C: Well, don't they?

G: I mean, they do. But the way you said it- don't be so mean!

C: I didn't mean it in a mean way! [both laugh] I'm just saying this is something I like. 'Cause it's similar to a shot in fucking-

G: Ackles Ass Equation, yeah.

C: Yeah, yeah. In- what's the name of the plane one? Something Traveller.

G: "Phantom Traveller."

C: "Phantom Traveller," yeah. I'm saying it's a pattern, and people have enjoyed both of these shots.

G: It's one of those shots where it starts from his foot or his knee or whatever, and then it pans up to his face, right?

C: Oh, right, yeah, I think.

G: And people like that kind of shots with Dean when he's lying in bed. [C: Right.] This is such an uncomfortable pose, though. Like, don't lie down like that when you're reading in bed. Lie down like a normal person. It's because they're trying to make him hot.

C: Wait, what do you mean by "lie down like a normal person"? Do you mean like, sit in bed, or do you mean lie down on your back so the ceiling light shines into your eyes and kills you?

G: No! Like, lie down on your side- like, fully lie down and then just pop the book up [C: Okay.] and have a pillow between your knees or whatever. You know. Be comfortable! [C: Yeah.] Like, I was looking at this shot, thinking, "His back is gonna kill him!" [C laughs] Like, what are you doing, Dean? But to be fair to me, I always have back problems constantly. It's like a brother to me, so maybe that's just me.

C: Maybe you should be lying on your side like Dean.

G: Exactly.

C: Dean's upset about how this book has everything in here, from the racist truck to him having sex.

G: This is "Route 666."

C: The only episodes that they criticize in this episode are ones that were written by guest writers or people they thought were going to be permanent guest writers. [G laughs] Because it's "Route 666," "Bugs," and "Red Sky at Morning," and [laughs] I guess it's 'cause Julie Siege did not want to upset her colleagues.

G: Yeah. Who wrote "Route 666"?

C: Buckleming.

G: No, wasn't Buckleming "Bugs"?

C: No, "Bugs" was like, Rachel something- like, it was another writing team that never came back.

G: I still cannot comprehend why the fuck they decided to bring back Buckleming and also keep them! Because, like, literally every single facet of Supernatural fandom hated those people. Like, for real. I'm being so for real. Every single one hated them.

C: I don't know. Weren't there nepotism rumors?

G: Of course there was nepotism! Not rumors, like, it's for real. [laughs] [C: Okay.] But like, it is just fascinating to me that every time a Buckleming episode is about to come out, everyone's like, "Oh, goddamn, what the fuck are these two gonna do this time around?" Like, everybody is pissed at them. Like, for real. And they just kept them! Penultimate episode written by them, even.

C: It's not like Supernatural tries to be good.

G: Once we start getting into the Buckleming seasons, you'll understand what I mean.

C: Okay.

G: It's bad. Yeah.

C: So Sam's doing research on his laptop about this book series, and he's saying that it started publishing in 2005, it's pretty obscure, a few got put out, but then the publisher went bankrupt, and the last one is "No Rest for the Wicked," which is, you know, 3.16, ending with Dean going to Hell. You know, they look at the fan forums a bit. Blah blah blah. They mention Samgirls and Deangirls, and then there's a Wincest mention, of course. But, you know, Sam and Dean both say no to incest. [G laughs] Good for them.

G: Yeah.

C: Is this where the "Supernatural hates their fans so much" sort of [both] starts?

G: Yeah.

C: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm glad that Julie Siege, through Sam and Dean, is saying no to incest, but like, I think you can just not interact also. Well.

G: I mean, if you start interacting with the fandom at this point, I think you do kind of need to.

C: That's fair.

G: Because this was when the incesties were like-

C: Big?

G: [laughs] - the only facet of fandom or whatever.

C: I see. Yeah, no, that is rough.

G: That is pretty rough. [C laughs Like, imagine writing a show, and everyone's just like, "And now the brothers in it will fuck." Like, okay. [C laughing] Why- what- what? I would say that they also do this thing where they read like, a specific fan, and they go like, "Oh, for fans, they do sure complain a lot." [laughs] And then there is one person who says that "The demon storyline is trite, cliched, and overall craptastic." I think that is a compliment, right? [laughing] Is that a compliment?

C: No.

G: He calls it craptastic, which means it's bad, but like, in a way that is so grand that it rounds back up to good!

C: I don't think that's how- [G laughs] No, I think it just means that it's bad.

G: Well, it means that to me.

C: Alright.

G: And this is still true forever. 5ever, even. Supernatural fans do love to complain, and like, when there are Supernatural fans who are like, defending the show for all it's worth, I'm like, "Get out of here! [C laughs] You don't really mean that." Like, you've watch the show. You know it's bad. [laughs] You don't have to lie to yourself.

C: Yeah. Stop lying to yourself. Or, I'd like to see a list of every other thing you've watched before this that led you to think that this is a good thing. Like, what sad, secluded life were you living before?

G: [laughs] I mean, I think I've told you that, like, the only TV shows from the US that I watched before Supernatural-

C: Were House and Supernatural?

G: House MD. And like, there was this other one that I didn't really watch, more of I watched my mom watch it, called like, Ghost Whisperer. [C: Okay.] And I thought the TV show Dog Whisperer was a spinoff to the TV show Ghost Whisperer. Wonderful! And it's just a lady. She talks to ghosts

C: Good for her. [G: real.] I mean, that's sort of what Supernatural is.

G: They didn't even get into the difference between Samgirls and Deangirls! 'Cause I feel like those people are so different.

C: When does the real split happen? I guess in Season 4, probably, right? 'Cause that's when they're like, at odds the most.

G: Yeah, I suppose so. So maybe at this point, it's still not- It's about the brothers, and not like, the individual brother brother. [laughs] "Brother brother." You know what I mean. It's about the- them as a duo at this point.

Later on, in Season 10, I think they do make a "Oh, Sam- Deangirl" with the girl who's directing.

C: Marie isn't even a Samgirl. She's a fake Samgirl. [G: That's true.] Like, you listen to those songs, and you tell me that she's a Samgirl? Like, Sam's only lines are about how like, Dean's such a great older brother. [G laughs] Like, a true Samgirl would never think that.

G: All the songs that thing were crazy because Dean's song is like, legitimately just like, a song introducing the show. Sam sings about Dean-

C: The Sam song's about Dean.

G: [laughing] And Cas's song is about Dean also! It's like, "Okay."

C: No, exactly! Marie's not a Samgirl. Who wrote that one? Robbie Thompson. Robbie Thompson, like, he doesn't understand anything. Like, he needs to reread the dictionary.

G: But, I mean, to be fair, "John and Mary, husband and wife, bringing home the brand new life, his name is Sammy, I'm big brother Dean [C: Yeah.], perfect family, so it seems" is a banger verse, and that song is a banger like, for fucking real. [C: Yup.] You know what's so miserable? I think we've all said all of this- like, everything we're saying right now, I think we already said in the podcast. [both laugh] But they don't have the Cas song on Spotify. They only have the Sam and Dean song-

C: Yeah, I think you've said this on the podcast.

G: Horrible! Why'd they do that? Why'd they do that. And like, you can't even listen to it in the episode 'cause the episode is like, it cuts to like, backstage [C: Yeah.], and so the audio changes as Dean is chasing the fucking thing that they're hunting. Horrible!

C: I mean, it's difficult for Casgirls out here.

-

C: Dean says that "We've got to find this Carver Edlund," but apparently there's just no records of him online, so they go to the publisher's house to try to figure out who it is. And I think, yeah, this scene is bad. The scene that's about to happen is bad. I think that they- I think Supernatural may hate women. Do you like, get this vibe, Grey, [G laughs] sometimes, that Supernatural might hate women?

G: I am beginning to think that you may be right! [C laughing] I wonder where this hatred of women is gonna go in the TV show Supernatural. [C laughs]

C: Okay, so like, there's the publisher, right? I mean, if all else fails, at least she has fun hair, but like, I feel like the way that they've styled her hair is like, this is the equivalent of having blue hair and pronouns in 2005. Do you know what I mean? [G laughs]

G: I didn't think that, I suppose.

C: Okay. I guess it's a bob, and like, half it is blonde, and half of it is black, which I think is fun. What happens is that this publisher, who, you know, is like, a professional whose job involved Supernatural, is instead treated as like, a giant fangirl.

G: A superfan.

C: I don't think that's how that goes. Like, I feel like that's not usually how a publisher interacts with the works that she is publishing.

G: Like, obviously, you can like the stuff you're working on. Like, that's fine. But not, I think, to this degree. Especially because at this point, Sam and Dean are introduced as like, journalists or whatever. They're going to write a piece about Supernatural to get the word out or whatever. [C: Yeah.] And it's like, if that's the case, then I feel like this publisher should act more professionally.

C: Be more professional, yeah. And not like, [dramatically] "I'm not gonna let you publish if you slander my boys!" Like, they're not your boys. [laughing] This is your job.

G: Yeah. And also, like, I mean, that's a reasonable stance to have. Like, "Oh, if you're just going to insult the book series, then I'm not going to give you an interview." But like, that's not in whatever way they're portraying it here. It's just so odd!

C: Yeah. She has absolutely no financial interest in these books. It's purely like, "Oh, and then, if you get the word out, then I can read more stories about these men that I want to fuck so bad!"

G: You can have this- like, you know, a publisher who is a fan. You can have that. It's just so completely- the way they write it, it's like, well, it's misogynistic, one. [C: Yeah.] And I just don't think anyone would do this. [C laughing] Like, I don't think it works. Other ways you can do this is like, you have a publisher who is a fan, but-

C: Like, "These books are overlooked, and these characters are really strong," but like, not in a "I personally want to fuck Sam and Dean so so bad and don't even have a job" way.

G: Yeah. Like, they can go in the aspect of like, "Yeah, we kept on publishing it because I personally believed in the story, but yeah, just didn't work out!" And like, there's just ways to do it that isn't so like, horrible.

C: Yeah. So the "so horrible" is, okay, so they show up, and they meet this woman. Sam and Dean are posing as journalists writing about the Supernatural series. She starts off by saying that, you know, they never got the attention they needed, and people just want to read romance crap now, like Doctor Sexy MD. Is this our first Dr. Sexy mention?

G: I think so. But also, Dr. Sexy is a TV show, so is the implication here that-

C: It's an adaptation of a book series?

G: Yeah. But also, do you do you ever think about the fact that like, every single novel that Chuck has is like, an episode of Supernatural? That's pretty bonkers, right? Because, like, a TV- like, TV is more expensive to produce, I think, than books.

C: Yeah, but you do have a team.

G: Yeah, you do have a team. And also, it's just the format of a TV show is you have a bunch of it. [laughs] You know, it's just how TV shows are. With books, how does a season even work?

C: There are a lot of paperback book series with like-

G: Of course there are.

C: - maybe a hundred pages each that are like, that long, though.

G: A hundred pages? Those novels are not a hundred pages.

C: They're like, what? 80?

G: Have you seen the books that Sam and Dean were holding? Those are not just 80 pages or 100, whatever.

C: Well, you saw how big the font on the back cover was. There's probably like, 5 words per page.

G: [laughs] Yeah, maybe so. But like, yeah, I think those books are like, around 200, maybe 250 pages.

C: Okay, later, there's like comic book pages in Chuck's house? But this isn't a comic series, right?

G: Well, maybe he's a writer for other things! Why are you putting Chuck in a box as a writer?

C: [laughs] Yeah. Good point. Good point.

G: The fact- like, I just don't think it will be made into a TV show the way Dr. Sexy MD is if there was a book series in that way. I don't know. The only book series of this kind that I have read a lot of is like, I don't know, Nancy Drew, I suppose. [C: Yeah.] I mean, they did turn Nancy Drew into a TV show, which I have not watched.

C: Yeah, so it's a doable.

G: But not in a- Yeah, not in the this way.

C: You know, the publisher's excited at the prospect of publishing more, but Dean is immediately like, "Oh, no, don't do that! It's such a complete series, what with Dean going to Hell and all!" And then she starts like, tearing up and going like, [dramatically] "Oh my god! That was one of my favorite ones because Dean was so strong and sad and brave." I- [sighs] I'm annoyed. I'm annoyed.

G: [laughing] It's so funny to me, because, like, she goes, "Dean is so strong and sad and brave. And Sam-" and she just stops, and it's like, so true! [both laugh] This is really what Deangirls are like. You know what the thing is? This is my complaint.

C: Okay.

G: There are people who like, like Dean and like, don't give a fuck about Sam, but they still feel the need to be like, "But Sam is- you know, I love Sam, too." [C laughs] And like, okay, fine. But at least when Sam girls are like, "I love Sam, and I cannot give a single shit about Dean," I'm like, "At least they're honest!" Like, you claim to love Sam, and you're not even doing anything to act on that love! [C laughing] Love is not just an emotion, it's an action, too. Boo! And with Samgirls, it's like, they all hate Dean. And like, yeah.

C: And I think Casgirls are generally honest- well, okay. It depends.

G: The spectrum of Sam and Casgirls is insane.

C: Bitter Casgirls are my people, Casgirls who say that they also like Dean are on thin ice with me. [G laughs]

G: Just like me, yeah.

C: Yeah. She also says that the best parts are when they cry. She calls Madison "the first woman since Jessica Sam really loved."

G: Why?

C: First off, does Sarah Blake mean nothing to you, just like she means nothing to me? [both laugh] Secondly, he did not know Madison. [laughing] He did not know Madison like that.

G: No, for real! They had one sex.

C: They had two conversations. [both laughing] They had two conversations and one sex. Like- [laughs] And then she says, like, "Gosh! If only real men were so open and in touch with their feelings."

G: Dean literally is not-

C: First off, hilarious to think of Sam and Dean as being like, an example of like, being in touch with your feelings. Secondly, Dean goes, "Real men?" and seems like, genuinely offended. [laughs]

G: I don't even know what he's offended about here. Is he like, "Are you saying that Sam and Dean are not real men?" [both laughing]

C: Like, why would she think that they are, man? I don't know. They do some "Haha! Isn't this funny!" where she's like, "How often do you cry like that?" Dean says that he's crying on the inside, blah blah blah. And then she says that, you know, she doesn't want "any smartass article making fun of my boys." I think if she said "series," it would be fine. It's just about the fact that it's like, just about emotional attachment to Sam and Dean and like, not about like, the story of Supernatural that I think is very odd.

G: Yeah, Bobby is in here too. [C laughing]

C: Well, maybe Bobby's one of the boys. But Sam and Dean claim that they're actually big fans, and so the publisher pop quizzes them on a few things. I think the only interesting bit is that she asks what Sam's LSAT score is, and Sam doesn't remember it at first and then guesses 174.

G: Didn't they say this in Episode 1? Like, the exact score?

C: Yeah, I think so, which is why the publisher would know. But yeah. It says something about how long it's been since Sam cared about something like that when it was a giant deal to him back then. [G: Yeah.] And it says something about, you knowm how all the book series like, exist at the same time, but like, the time for the characters Sam and Dean passes linearly.

G: And Dean saying that his favorite song is a tie between Zep's "Ramble On" and "Traveling Roadside Blues" [C: Riverside Blues.] says something about me, which is that I made "Ramble On," like, my personality for a very long time.

C: [laughs] Yeah. Well. Good for you.

G: Yeah. It's a good song. I wasn't like, "Oh, and I'm going to listen to it on repeat because of Dean." I was like, "I'm going to listen to it once because of Dean, and I'm going to listen to it on repeat because it's a good song."

C: I don't think I got into any Zep songs. Like, I tried when you made that playlist, but it's like, [laughs] I don't know. Sam asks for Carver Edlund's real name, but the publisher won't give it. She says, "He's very private. Like Salinger." slay. [G: For real.] And then Sam, like, sighs, and he's like, "Okay, I know the way to this woman's heart," and he unbuttons his shirt a little to show his like, anti-possession tattoo, and is like, "Please? We're like, really big fans." And then Dean also does that. And then the publisher is like, "Okay, I'm convinced. And also, I have one, too." And then, like, the camera is like, cropped, so that you do not see the tattoo, but she, like, lifts up her dress, so like, we can assume that it is somewhere on her ass, and that is something that we had to have on the episode. And then she finally gives them the name "Chuck Shurley," and then we don't see her again, which I think is a good thing, but I'm sorry to women everywhere.

-

G: So we go to this house, and it's Chuck. He is getting some papers that are fresh out of the printer, and he is about to start reading them. His outfit at this point - I would like to mention it just because it really does set the scene. It's he's on boxers, and like, just like, a shirt. A ratty shirt and a bathrobe. And this is how he greets Dean into the house later on. As he reads, this is what he's saying. "Sam and Dean approached the rundown, ramshackle house with trepidation." And also, he's like, editing along the way. He's like, crossing stuff out on the paper. And then as he's saying this, we see Sam and Dean get the out of the car into a house - a ramshackle house, even - with trepidation. And it just goes on like this. Like, Chuck is reading like, "Oh, they're wondering, 'Oh, do we really want to learn the secrets behind that door?' They exchange soulful looks," and Sam and Dean does in fact trade soulful looks.

C: But, you know, the actors heard the word "soulful looks" and did not deliver. They traded the most soulless looks possible.

G: Yeah, they ring the doorbell. And they do actually ring the doorbell IRL, and Chuck is here! Chuck answers the door. And yeah, he's the one who wrote the Supernatural books. And Dean goes, “Yeah, I'm Dean. This is Sam. The Dean and Sam you've been writing about.” And Chuck is just like, "Okay, fuck off." and then closes the door. But Dean rings the bell again, and Chuck's like, "Okay, I get that you're a fan, and that's real nice, but for your own good, [laughing] I strongly suggest you get a life."

C: Real.

G: Real! Dean is like, "Yeah, we do have a life, and you're writing it to write your books." Eventually, they bring him to the Impala, and then they open the trunk, and it's like, you know, guns everywhere. And Chuck begins being like, nervous. Like, "Oh my god, these guys are for real gonna kill me!" And he's like, "Okay, I get it. You really are my number one fans. That's awesome. So listen, I have some posters inside." [laughing] He's so fucking funny. He's like, "Yeah, please don't hurt me." Blah blah blah. And Sam asks plot-specific questions, like, "Do you know about the angels?"

C: Season 4 plot-specific questions.

G: "Is Lilith breaking the seals?" And Chuck is like, "Wait, how do you know that? It's not published yet because I'm still writing it." At some point he goes, "Wait. This is some kind of joke, right? Did Phil put you up to this?" which is pretty fun.

C: Who's Phil?

G: Well, I mean, just Phil Sgriccia, probably.

C: Oh, yeah. But he has friends, yeah.

G: There's people who will like, pull his leg or whatever. And I mean, we always complain constantly about how Supernatural’s world feels so small because, like, everybody only exists when they exist on screen and don't have like, a life beyond that. But, you know, little quips like this does make it like, "Oh, yeah. Did like, my buddy Phil put you up to this?" [C: Yeah.] Dean says, "Well, nice to meet you. I'm Dean Winchester. This is Sam." And Chuck is like, "Oh, I never wrote those names into the books. I never told anybody about it. I never even wrote them down." [gasps]

C: Gasp.

G: He never even looked it up to check if Sam and Dean Winchester are serial killers [C laughs] on the FBI wanted list?

C: I guess he didn't.

G: I mean, wasn't there a whole episode where it was like, "Oh my god, what if Sam and Dean get figured out as serial killers 'cause their faces are everywhere in the world right now?"

C: Yeah, I guess Chuck doesn't watch the news.

-

C: Inside, Chuck is drinking and miserable. After determining that Sam and Dean are real, he goes, "Well, there's only one explanation. Obviously, I'm a god."

G: It's really fascinating. Because in the "Obviously, I'm a god" line, like, every other shot is like, normal, you know, normal talking shot, whatever. And then for the "Obviously, I'm a God," we just go really, really, really up close to him, and it's the only shot like that in the entire episode, which is fun!

C: Yeah, yeah. I guess this was probably planned pretty far in advance.

G: What do you mean "this," and what do you mean "planned."

C: Just Chuck eventually being God? But I guess if Supernatural was supposed to end in- Okay, Supernatural is supposed to end in Season 5. But, like-

G: Chuck was already God in Season 5. I have forgot about this completely! [C: Oh.] Season 5 ends with Chuck like, disappearing on a chair or something.

C: Oh, well, then we need to cut all that out!

G: No, we'll keep it all in [C: Okay.] so I can have my revelation here, yeah.

C: Okay. That makes sense.

G: [laughs] That's like interaction bait.

C: Yeah, isn't it so annoying when people are wrong in a podcast, and you just have to sit there and listen to them be wrong? Like how we said that like, Cas never has burnt wings, but he literally does have burnt wings in like, 12.23 or 13.01, and you see them on the beach?

G: Yeah, well, I just think personally that if people wants to tell us we're wrong, they should do it in a public platform [C laughs] so, you know, we can have interaction in the podcast.

C: Yeah. Chuck says, "No, I mean, I write things, and they come to life. So I've got to be a god. A cruel, cruel, capricious god. The things I put you through! The physical beatings alone." And he genuinely does feel bad, which again, all this is pretty good stuff because of what we know later. He is upset that he killed their father and their mother. He like, is like, "And, Sam, you had to go through the whole thing again with Jessica. All for what? For literary symmetry? I toyed with your lives, your emotions, for entertainment."

G: I love this.

C: Love it.

G: I mean, we all know I love postmodern stuff. And this is like- this is the point, right? [laughs] Like, you know, the author being the god. Fun! Fun stuff.

C: Fun stuff.

G: I mean, like, this is an impactful episode, and how I know that for sure is that when you talk to Supernatural fans who are not like, in fandom at all, this is like, something that they talk about, this episode, and Chuck specifically. 'Cause like, I have a cousin- I think I've told this in the podcast. I have a cousin who like, never watched Supernatural. I mean, I have a cousin who watched Supernatural, Filipino dub, on television, and then when that ended, kept watching it, I think, until Season 9? Yeah, so when Supernatural ended, we were texting each other like "OMG! Like, it's ending for real."

C: Yeah. Dean fucking died.

G: No, I mean, she doesn't know it yet, 'cause like, she hasn't watched it at that point yet. She was like, "I'm just going to binge at all, like, I don't know, if it comes out on Netflix or something."

C: Horrible decision.

G: - which it never will in the Philippines. She does ask me like, "Have you been watching it?" And I was like, "Yeah." And she goes, "Without like, spoiling everything, like, does Chuck come back? Is he God?" And I was like, "Yeah." I don't know. I find that so fascinating, because, like, the last season she watched was Season 9 [C: Right.] and that was like, the number one and only question she has is like, "Does Chuck come back, and is he God for real?" which is super fun. I think that's super fun.

C: Yeah. Goes on to be like, "And like, you had to live through the bugs and the ghost ship? Like, I'm so sorry. Horror is one thing, but to be forced to live bad writing! If I knew it was real, I would have done another pass." [G laughing] Incredibly funny.

G: He's so real for that! He is so fucking real for that.

C: Sam and Dean, both of them are like, "You're not a god." Sam says, "We think you're probably just psychic" but like, focused on their lives.

G: At this point, they still have never heard of a prophet, right?

C: Yeah, they haven't.

G: Slay.

C: Slay.

G: Also, why is "Red Sky in the Morning" considered a bad episode? What's that about?

C: I really think it is perfectly fine. Even fun.

G: It's fine.

C: But a lot of people just think that the ghost ship plot is dumb, which like, maybe it is, but like, Bela was there, and she was like, having fun, [G: Yeah!] so I don't know what you have against women having fun, but like, maybe you should examine yourself.

G: She was- she fake-fainted. She had fake sex with Dean. Like, it's fun. It's fine!

C: I mean, like, it was pretty dumb how they got rid of that ghost by having his brother hug him to death [G laughs], but- [laughs]

G: [laughing] I was just gonna bring up- they sicc two ghosts against each other and in the process got rid of both of them! Isn't that so fun?

C: Yeah, kind of. But it is something that never happens again. So I guess it's like, "Well, that's kind of out of nowhere for Supernatural lore" or whatever.

G: It's not out of nowhere. They're using the power of familial bonds and anger to get rid of a ghost.

C: Yeah, suppose so.

G: And that's, you know, very emotionally and thematically resonant [both laughing] in the TV show Supernatural.

C: Yeah, yeah.

G: It literally is!

C: I'm sure that Lawrence whatever his last name was will appreciate knowing that. Lawrence Andries, if you're out there, we think 3.06 is good. Besides the old woman sexually assaulting Sam at every opportunity. That was bad. But the rest of it was good! [laughs] Sorry that Julie Siege was mean to you about it.

G: They should have had a scene where- Was it "Yellow Fever"? The coward ghost, something something?

C: Yeah.

G: They should have a scene where Chuck, like, [laughing] defended his writing choices in that episode. I guess it's not out yet.

C: "You're not a dick!"

G: [laughs] Yeah. but it's not out yet, so there's no like, fandom response yet to that episode because that's a Season 4 episode. Sad! Well, it should have happened in the history of Supernatural. [C: Yeah.] He should have been like, "I never come out to defend my writing choices, but just so, [C laughing] Dean Winchester will never be a dick!"

C: Chuck realizes that "Oh my god! Like, this new book is meta. It's very Vonnegut." And then, you know, there's a "Oh my god! Dean reads?" moment [G laughs] where he asks, "Slaughterhouse 5 Vonnegut or Cat's Cradle Vonnegut?" And Sam's like, "What? You read?" and whatever whatever. But Chuck says that it's Kilgore Trout Vonnegut [G: Fun stuff!] in that he wrote himself into it. He wrote himself being confronted by his characters!

So in the laundromat, you know, Sam's doing laundry-

G: Hell yeah!

C: Which, is this the only laundromat scene we get? Because I know a lot of Supernatural fandom is centered around "Why didn't we get to see them do laundry more often?"

G: For real. Well, I think so.

C: Yeah, well, it's nice to see them doing laundry.

G: Yeah, but also like, in Season 8 or so, they do end up in the bunker, and they do have laundry areas there, and they do laundry there!

C: True. So Dean's reading Chuck's latest manuscript, and he's reading about himself in a laundromat, like, sitting, blah blah blah. Mirrors reflecting mirrors. Sam gets narrated by Dean a bit about how he's having doubts about Chuck and whether he was telling the truth. Chuck also says that "Sam turned his back on Dean, his face brooding and pensive," and Dean says that Sam definitely has his brooding and pensive shoulders on, which was fun. Like, they are brothers! And then the next thing is that Sam has the thought that Dean is a dick. And Sam goes, "The guy's good." Meanwhile, in Chuck's house, he's just having more visions, and they're of Sam meeting Lilith in a motel and then like, her like, pulling him on top of her in the bed. Well, we don't know it's Lilith yet. It's a blonde woman. But I know she's Lilith because that's the vessel in the "Lucifer Rising" gifs.

G: I don't know if we had this conversation this season yet, but I feel like in a past conversation, we like, kind of thought of Lilith as knowing she was already going to die [C: Yeah.] and it being self-sacrificial. And it's revealed that she didn't. Like, she figures it out now.

C: Yeah, she figures it out and she wants out.

G: Which I think is a lot more interesting than how we perceived it in the past.

C: Yeah. But we don't get to that until way later in the episode.

-

G: Sam and Dean, back in Chuck's house. And Chuck has a new set of chapters in his hands. And he was like, "Oh, god! Like, you're not- this was so much easier when you guys were not real." And he was like, "You, Dean, you're especially not gonna like this."

C: Which is crazy, 'cause it's about something bad happening to Sam? Like, does Sam not matter to you? Like, do you hate women? Like, what is this?

G: Yeah, you're right. Like, "Sam, you're going to die. But Dean's gonna be pissed." [both laugh]

C: Yeah!

G: Yeah, it's Lilith. She's coming to get Sam. Well, Chuck says, "She's coming for Sam," which is pretty funny! [C laughs] And then Dean goes, "Coming to kill him?" and Sam’s like, “Oh, no, when?” And Chuck says, "Tonight." And yeah, she's just gonna show up. Chuck starts reading from his manuscript, and he goes, "Lilith patted the bed seductively. Unable to deny his desire-" which is so- like, now we know what happens later-

C: Yeah, his desire to get close enough to her to stab her with the knife? [laughs]

G: Yeah, like, Sam did not succumb in that way. Like, what are you talking about? "And they sunk into the throes of fiery, demonic passion."

C: Which was Sam grappling for the knife, and then her also grappling for the knife?

G: Well, I mean, it's passion in other ways. [C laughs] And Sam is in disbelief like, "What the fuck? I'm not gonna do that."

C: He's laughing! It's cute. And like, his laugh-

G: He goes, "I mean, come on. 'Fiery demonic passion'?" [laughs] And Chuck goes, "It's just a first draft!" [both laugh] He's so important to me. He's so funny!

C: Like, Chuck is?

G: Yeah.

C: Oh, just like- is it just 'cause you write sometimes?

G: No, I mean, I just think it's funny! You're so mean to me. Why are you so mean to me? This is the thing I'm sensitive about! [laughing]

C: [laughing] What are you sensitive about?

G: Nothing!

C: I don't know. I guess you're just having more fun with this episode than I am, so I'm trying to figure out what it is.

G: Well, I just think it's fun. I just like- like, this episode to me feels like reminiscing on an episode that I knew I loved in the past for the fun reasons [C: Got it.] and being able to see the fun reasons now and be like, "That's still fun."

C: Yeah, I guess I just- I don't find the Supernatural meta thing- like, I'm sure the Supernatural meta things were like, fun when they first happened in Season 4, but just like, because I know so much of the Chuck stuff, and how like, tiring it is, and how the writers just use it to excuse how they're terrible at writing, I guess I don't have that fresh, new joy [laughs] that you can access.

G: Also, like, this is different from the other episodes that I like. Like, for example, "On the Head of a Pin," I loved that episode when I first watched it. But like, it's so serious, and it's so like- like, the themes that they were dealing with were kind of heavy. So it's like, it's difficult to interact with it in a like, "Oh my god, it's so fun!" way. But this one is just purely like, "It's so fun." And it is so fun! Dean goes, "Wait. But like, Lilith is a little girl." So like, the last time Dean saw Lilith was "No Rest for the Wicked"?

G: Yeah, last time he saw her properly was "No Rest for the Wicked," and then he saw her as a vision at the end of "Yellow Fever," [G: Oh yeah.] which was great. Bring her back! I'm so sad that they do this.

G: Yeah. Sam- did he see Lilith? I mean, it's implied that he- not implied He was tracking down Lilith, and I feel like he was like, at some point, in the same area as her.

C: But he never saw her, because he thought that the little girl who was set up as a trap for him in the flashbacks in 4.09 was Lilith. So he still thought she had a predilection for little girl vessels.

G: Well, right now, she's not in a little girl. She's a dental hygienist.

C: A "comely dental hygienist."

G: From Bloomington. Indiana. [C: Yeah.] Dean asks, like, "What happens after the demonic passion?" And Chuck's like, "Yeah, I don't know. Haven't write it yet." And Sam is still, like, "You know, like, we don't have to take it seriously. Obviously, it's not gonna happen." Dean is just looking at Sam, like, glaring at him, but, you know, the implication is like, "Oh, but you did sleep with a demon. Like, that is something that already happened." Which he does bring up later, like, verbally.

C: Yeah. But it's not the same thing. Like, he and Ruby were like- they like, knew each other for like, weeks before that happened. Ugh. But whatevs.

G: Yeah, I mean, I don't think it matters to Dean. Just because he's a horrible person. [laughs]

C: Yeah. [laughs]

G: I need to- like, I genuinely think it doesn't matter to Dean, like, even with like, the women in his life, it doesn't matter, you know?

C: Huh. What do you mean by that?

G: Like, I think he makes a distinction of like, "This is a person I just met, and I'm gonna sleep with them" and versus "This is a person I've known for a week, so I'm gonna sleep with them." To be fair, has Dean known anyone for weeks like, the same way Sam and Ruby has?

C: Cassie.

G: Oh, yeah! That's true. They were for realsies together. But was that like, "They got together after knowing each other for a while," or "They got together and then got to know each other for a while."

C: Hmm, yeah, I guess I don't know.

G: With the Lisa thing. They slept together, and that was the extent of their relationship.

C: Yeah, they had marathon sex for a week.

G: Yeah. Dean asks, like, "How does your whole psychic thing work?" And Chuck goes, [laughing] "You mean my process?" [C laughs] And Dean is like, "Yeah, your 'process.'" And Chuck goes like, "Yeah, I have a bad headache, and then, like, aspirin's useless." He drinks until he falls asleep. The first time it happened, it was just a crazy dream, but then it just kept happening and happening. And then he just got possessed by the spirit of the Winchesters and decided to write it all down.

C: Yeah, so he does he control his actions when he does the writing? No, right?

G: What do you mean? What do you mean by that?

C: Like, how aware is he when he's doing the writing? Because, like, if he's so sorry about like, writing them into these bad situations, wouldn't he just like, not write? Like, he can have his dream and then not write. You can just keep that shit to yourself, bro. [laughs]

G: But here, I think it's different. I mean, here, I think, because it hasn't happened yet, it is actually helpful, and like, kind of a requirement for him to write this shit down.

C: Why?

G: Well, just because it is actually real now, and if you can warn these people about it, then you probably should.

C: No, but he's currently operating under the belief that, like, he's a god, and everything he writes becomes true, which is different from like, "I'm seeing into the future, and whether or not I actually put it down to paper doesn't matter."

G: Well, I mean, Sam and Dean basically told him it's a psychic thing. So it's not like he's making this happen, he's just seeing shit that's about to happen.

C: Okay, so they've convinced him by now.

G: Yeah.

C: Okay. But later, doesn't Cas say something that's like, "Anything the prophet has written must come to pass," so it's like, does the actual act of putting it down on paper change how much it has to happen?

G: That is interesting. Because when Kevin does it, he, like, gets like, possessed and recites it, I think. [C: Mm.] Is that true? Have you seen any of the Kevin eps? I mean you haven't. [C: No.] Have you seen any of the Kevin scenes? You haven't. [C laughs] Okay, well, sorry if I'm completely misrepresenting Kevin right now. But like, I think Donatello, too. I think it's different. I don't know. There was also the translation tablet with those two. Like, they have to translate shit. [C: Right.] There was a whole Donatello translating stuff thing. Wonderful name, by the way.

C: I mean, they change a lot of the prophet lore between now and then. Like, I bet that like, no archangel ever tried to protect Kevin when Sam and Dean were being so mean to him. Or when fucking Crowley kidnapped him and tortured him.

G: To be fair, both Lucifer and Michael were in Hell at that point, Gabriel was presumed dead, and Raphael was for real dead, so.

C: Oh, slay. What about for Donatello? Was there anybody around?

G: I don't know.

C: Was Gabriel back by then?

G: I have no idea what season Donatello was in. Was he 13? I think he was in Season 13. They battled Gog and Mcgog. Dean and Cas. [both laughing] Because Donatello said they should. Yeah. He had chicken wings, too. I don't know. I mean, it was in Season 13. I think was before Gabriel come back.

C: Gabriel? Okay.

G: Also, the person who killed Kevin was an angel. It was Ezekiel?

C: Oh, the- Gadreel.

G: Gadreel! Who the fuck is Ezekiel?

C: That was the fake name that Gadreel gave Dean. He was like, "Oh, I wanna possess Sam. I'm totally Ezekiel." And then Dean called Cas, and Cas was like, "Oh, yeah, Ezekiel's a nice guy." [G: "He's fine," yeah.] 'Cause Gadreel's- what? They blamed him for [G: Eve or something.] letting the serpent into the Garden of Eden or something?

G: Yeah. Getting the apple, blah blah blah. He is just like Aziraphale for real! [C laughs]

C: Yeah. Yeah.

G: I mean, it is fascinating the way they talk about Chuck and the- because, like, it is such a very different thing from the other prophets, which does lean towards the more "He's already God here," 'cause it's just a different- like, he's not really a prophet here. He's just for real God. The idea of God being like, "I don't want to deal with this anymore. I'm just gonna make myself forget." but still being like, forced to have these thoughts, it's like, it's pretty fun! [C: Mm-hm.] It's like, even God is not in control of whatever the fuck. [C: Yeah.] Like, he can be in control of the, you know, the other things in the world, but his head is still his head, and his head is still like, not fully in his grasp. That's real fun! Yeah.

There's this super corny scene where Dean is like- Sam and Dean are talking, and Dean's like, "Look, why don't we-" and then just Chuck like, hands him the manuscript. And Dean was like, "You knew I was gonna ask for it?" [C laughs] And Chuck is like, "Yeah." And it's like, everyone thinks that!

C: One could presume that like, that is a reasonable next thing to ask.

G: From like, literally everything that happens this scene, I would also think that that's what Dean is doing, and I would also hand him the manuscript. Like, who GAF?

-

C: Outside, they're in the Impala, and Sam's reading the manuscript. And the line is, "The minivan accident wasn't that bad, but Dean was still seeing stars. He scratched absently at the pink flower band-aids on his face." And Sam’s like, “Bro like, literally, that would never, ever happen. You would never use a pink flower band-aid, because they're gay. Everything that's written in this manuscript is like, dumb. It won't actually happen. Chuck is is not for realsies." Dean says that, "Well, he's been right about everything so far." I was expecting, for the sake of humor, for them to like, get hit by a minivan right now, but it didn't happen. Very sad.

G: If Sam does not believe that Chuck is for real, what the hell does he think Chuck has been doing with all the other novels?

C: I think he's probably just like, "I think Chuck is a psychic, and I think that he got all the other novels right and stuff, but like, sometimes he also just comes up with ideas on his own because he's a bad writer, and he just comes up with bad writer ideas, and this is one of them.

G: It's fascinating because, like, again, I don't really recall what the prophets- blah blah blah. But if I recall it correctly, those are very words-heavy. It's like, says words, and now we have to interpret the words or something. But like, here, it's visions. Like, Chuck is having visions, and then he has to word those visions. And like, I mean, with the- you know, we just talked about how the wording for the Sam and Lilith coming into bed together is so different from what actually happens. [C: Right.] But like, that is what it looks like from the vision. Yeah, it's fascinating. For sure, there's also aspects of the book that's like, "How does Dean feel? How does Sam feel?" And like, is Chuck privy to that, or he he just assuming from what he can see from Sam and Dean's faces?

C: Yeah, he's just assuming from their faces.

G: Yeah, exactly. So it's like, yeah, all the actions are known, but the emotions, blah blah. blah But those are still also written down. And, as you said, Cas says, "What is written comes to pass," and like, maybe Dean didn't even give a shit about that woman, but because Chuck was like, "And he was so sad about it!" [C laughs] does he become sad about it?

C: Yeah. Huh. Good question. I don't know.

G: I bet there's a listener right now who is so pissed with me for saying all that shit about [C laughs] Kevin and Donatello if it's not even correct. Like, so fucking true. [C laughs] I accept all your anger. It's fine.

C: Sam says that something else that happens is that there's a plastic tarp on the rear window of the Impala "flapping like the wings of a crow." Dean just says that "Whatever, I generally believe what's going on, so let's just skip town so we don't have to face Lilith." Sadly, I guess, the only bridge that can take them out of town is out so they cannot leave. It is impossible for them to go. So they have to spend the night in town. So they go to a diner. Dean's now reading the manuscript. And he's just saying, "Okay, let's just do the opposite of whatever it says here in order to avoid running into Lilith. So it says here that we get into a fight, so let's not fight. It says you do research. You can't do research." Dean gets a bacon cheeseburger in the script, so he cannot get one now. And then we just get like, a scene where apparently, the bacon cheeseburgers at this restaurant are really really good, but Dean's suffering so much because he can't order it. He has to get the veggie tofu burger, but he pronounces tofu as toFU, which, like, [G laughs] I feel like is racism to me.

G: [laughs] Jesus. I mean, do people in this time- what is this? 2009? Did they know what tofu was? [laughs]

C: I don't know. It had- it definitely has like, a very specific kind of reputation in the States at this time, I think. But we've already discussed our love for toFU in an earlier episode, yeah. [G: Exactly.] Well, tofu is my my best friend, my lover even, and no one can ever say anything bad about it. Sam orders the Cobb salad. They have this conversation where Sam says like, "It's literally ridiculous to think that I would hook up with Lilith," and Dean is like, "Right. 'Cause something like that can never happen." What a dick! And then Sam says that, "Hey, like, since we know she's coming, this might be a good opportunity for us to like, defeat her properly." And Dean goes like, "Are you-" like, angrily, but then he remembers that they can't fight. And he goes, "It... frustrates me [G laughs] when you say such reckless things." I wish that they continued this a bit longer, like, stuff where they actually have to communicate calmly instead of fight because of the script. But, I mean, Sam immediately is like, "I do wish to fight." 'Cause he goes, "Well, it frustrates me when you'd rather hide than fight." Slay. Go, Sam!

G: No, he's talking about Lilith! Hide from Lilith than fight Lilith. You're so mean to Sam.

C: No, no, I know that's what he's talking about. But I'm saying that- I feel like the way that he delivers it, like, it is fighting.

G: It's so combative, yeah.

C: Yeah, exactly. Dean's thing is like, I think, a genuine attempt to be like, "I'm saying this out of concern for you, blah blah blah," and Sam's like, "Well, you're a coward. Have you considered that?" [laughs]

G: [laughs] "You're a coward, a loser, and you will never be happy." Like, so true!

C: And, you know, there's a bit where- Okay, well, first, Dean says that, you know, "It's not hiding. It's being smart and like, strategic 'cause we're not ready for this yet," and then he gets his burger, and he takes a tentative bite, and then he goes like, "Oh my god! This is delicious! Tofu is like, amazing!" But then the waitress comes back and is like, "Oh, no, sorry. I accidentally gave you like, the bacon cheeseburger."

G: That is so irresponsible! [laughs]

C: Yeah, no, like, luckily there wasn't like, an allergy or like, a religious thing there, 'cause like, yowch.

G: Exactly!

C: But I guess the point is just that they cannot escape fate, and what Chuck wrote forced that waitress to be bad at her job, even though she's probably not actually bad at her job. Very sad that, you know, the butt of this joke is like, my best friend tofu. 'Cause the idea is like, "Well, of course, a tofu burger can never actually taste good." Well, you don't understand true love, and you'll never be happy. Like, I hope you know that.

G: Stop making tofu into other things. It will never be as good as a burger, but a burger will also never be as good as a tofu that's well-cooked. Like, fuck off. Kill yourself. [both laughing] Sorry!

C: [laughing] I don't know if we can keep that in.

-

G: So we are at a motel, and yeah, it's a horrible motel, apparently, because even Sam was like, "Dude, this is like- it charges by the hour. Why are we here?" And Dean was like, "Yeah, but like, the other motel is where it was said that Lilith will find you, so like, now we're at hooker inn" Dean has like, couple of hex bags, putting up.  He's preparing to not find Lilith. And Sam is like, kind of pissed about it, like, "Oh, are we just gonna have to be here all night and hide?" and blah blah blah, and Dean was like, "Yes!" He goes out to park the Impala or something 'cause it said he was going to drive it, so he was like, "No, I'm not going to." And yeah. "No homework, watch some porn," blah blah. I still think about that fucking scene where Sam watches porn, like, [both laugh] fully sat up in bed like, being like, "I wonder what's happening here. [C laughing] I'm so curious. This is an academic endeavor for me."

C: I mean, he and Cas should watch porn together and take notes. Like, it's an important part of their relationship that this has to happen. Yeah, also, Dean specifically references the Casa Erotica franchise, which, as we've mentioned before, like, that- it sucks that it exists.

G: Yeah. So, Dean is about to park. There's this bit where- because the motel is called like, Toreador or something, and the lights go out, and it only leaves the R and E and D on. So it's like, "Wow, now, it's the Red Motel again." [C: Yeah.] I think that's pretty fun. I think it's pretty fun. And then, as he parks the Impala, starts walking away. And then suddenly, like, [laughs] couple of people are trying to break into the car. And he was like, "No, what are you doing?" And then he starts like, running back, and then he gets fucking vanned. He gets minivanned.

C: Hell, yeah!

-

C: We're back at the motel. Sam opens the door to Chuck, who he has invited over. He has him come in, shuts the door, and he goes like, "I was just wondering how much you know about me." And he looks so scared and vulny. And like, yeah, this is his greatest shame of all time. The fact that he even bothered to ask about it at all. It's- yeah, yeah. It's a lot. Chuck asks, "What do you mean?" And Sam goes, "Have you seen visions of me when I'm not with Dean?" And Chuck goes, "Oh. You want to know if I know about the demon blood." Sam is upset a bit about this. And then he goes, "But like, you didn't tell Dean?" And Chuck says, "I didn't even write it into the books. I was afraid it would make you look unsympathetic." And Sam goes, "Unsympathetic?" And Chuck goes, "Yeah, come on, Sam. I mean sucking blood? You've gotta know that's wrong." [G laughs] Supernatural will just say things with no logical backing, no basis in truth or reality, and just expect you to go along with it!

G: No, but like, the thing is, this was kind of like, vindicating for me because, like, constantly, the two of us, we talk about like, "Is Supernatural trying to just- like, is the logic that's supposed to happen here just that 'It's wrong, just 'cause'?" And we keep on trying to be like, "Oh, maybe there's like, you know, like, it's the thing that killed Mary, like, the demon feeding Sam his blood. So it's like, maybe the guilt comes from there," blah blah. Like, we go through all these hoops to figure out what the fuck is supposed to be wrong with this thing, [C laughs] and here, Supernatural just outright saying, "It's wrong just 'cause."

C: Yeah, like, "We felt like it. We just thought it was, so yeah. And we figured you would know that too. Just 'cause." Yeah, no. What the hell? But I don't know. Supernatural logic. Crazy. Absolutely crazy. They really will just say something and expect you to agree, due to some weirdass social norms that I never got schooled on.

Sam, I think, starts looking near teary, as he says the rest of this, which is, "It scares the hell out of me. I mean, I feel it inside of me. I wish to god I could stop." What does feeling it inside of him feel like? What do you think that is? Because last last time we discussed this, you were like, "I don't think it's actually like, changing him like, mentally or whatever." But like, he's feeling something.

G: I mean, his powers are getting stronger, and [C: Right.] maybe there's an aspect of it that's like, demon blood. But, as Ruby said later on, it's not the demon blood blob, Dumbo. What does she say?

C: "You never needed the feather to fly, Dumbo."

G: But also like, he does go through withdrawal-

C: And he also has to juice up on demon blood in order to- well the withdrawal's just because the demon blood is addictive. Him saying he feels it inside of him means that it does something, not necessarily to do with his powers. I don't get the "You never needed the feather to fly, Dumbo" thing given that he has to drink a bunch of jugs-

G: Because the Lucifer, yeah.

C: - in order to house Lucifer. So like-

G: [laughs] He drinks the- he needs to drink a bunch of jugs.

C: Jugs of demon blood! Aren't they in jugs? [G laughing]

G: Yeah, no, it's just "jugs" in Filipino is very close to the slang word for boobs, so that's really fun.

C: Oh, yeah, jugs is a slang word for boobs too in the US.

G: Oh yeah, hell yeah. Fun stuff!

C: Win. And okay, at this point, he's like, sort of walked away from Chuck and like, sat down on a chair just due to his emotional distress. And Chuck is standing and sort of like has a sort of like, understanding, therapy-ish look on his face and in the tone of his voice. And he goes like, "But you keep going back." Sam goes, "What choice have I got? If it helps me kill Lilith and stop the Apocalypse." And Chuck says, "I thought that was Dean's job. That's what the angels say, right?" And Sam says, again, like he said in 4.16, "Dean's not Dean lately. Ever since he got out of Hell. He needs help." [laughs] Men will drink demon blood instead of having their brother go to therapy. But, okay, what does- This is something that's been said multiple times. I don't see it. I don't see that Dean's changed. Do you think that Dean's changed?

G: [dramatically] He's not strong enough. "I can't do it, Cas. It's too big." [C laughs] I don't know. I don't know if he has. [C: Yeah.] You know, we were so brave for not even making a joke when that scene happened.

C: Yeah. Yeah. I mean-

G: I thought about it, but I was like, "Let's not."

C: Yeah. I didn't really think about it 'cause it was Dean who was speaking, and when Dean's talking, I, like, zone out, so.

G: [laughs] You black out.

C: Yeah. But yeah, I don't know, whatever. The show says that Dean's changed. Fine. Maybe he has.

G: I mean, there is the aspect of "Dean is a lot more careful now." Like, "Let's not attack Lilith. Let's not" blah blah blah. In Season 1, 2, and 3, was Dean more gung-ho to like, get into situations?

C: Not in Season 3.

G: I think in Season 3 he was.

C: 'Cause in Season 3, he was like, "Whatever. I should just die. Like, stop trying."

G: Yeah. And is that what Sam is comparing now!Dean to? Like, obviously, that's different, Sam. He had one year to live back then.

C: Yeah, and also Season 3 Dean had also given up like. Is he comparing him to Season 2 Dean? I think Season 2 Dean just had energy 'cause he was focused on like, rescuing Sam, in whatever way he thinks rescuing is. Like, that's different.

G: In Season 1, the only situation where I can remember Dean like, hesitating to do something was like, with fucking Meg or something. But that's from a different place. That's like, "If this happens and ends, you, Sam, are just gonna go back to college and whatever, and it's just gonna be- like, I want this to be a family again." And so that's a different thing. And there's also the whole "Don't shoot Dad," which can be seen as that. So like, Dean was always like that. Dean was always like, "Let's prioritize the safety of the family."

C: Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I guess maybe it's just that Sam's perception has changed because, like, the way Sam operates has changed? But also, I don't know if the way Sam operates has changed that much.

G: Yeah, but I do buy it the whole like, "Oh, Dean came back different. But really, it's because Sam has changed so much. And it's the same Dean, but like, Sam doesn't get that because he's the one who changed."

C: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think perhaps that is what is happening.

So Sam says that, and Chuck asks, "So you've got to carry the weight?" And Sam says, "Well, he's looked out for me my whole life. I can't return the favor?" which is all nice. But Chuck does question how true this is. What are your thoughts on how true this is?

G: Well, I think it's fucking rude to be like, "Dean is a weakling and a loser, [C laughing] and he'll never do anything worthwhile in his entire existence."

C: Well, what if it's true?

G: "And I'm saying all this because he took care of me when I was a baby!" [C laughs] Like, okay, Sam.

C: Yeah. I guess. I guess it's mean. But like, what if Dean is a weakling and a loser and will never do anything worthwhile in his life? Like, have you considered that? I guess it's like, a patronizing thing to say. But like, Dean's been patronizing Sam for 3 seasons. I think equality is when Sam gets to do it back. [laughs] And Chuck says like, "Sure, you can, if that's what this is." Sam immediately gets quite defensive, when before, he was doing a lot of the teary, open, etc. thing. And he goes, "What else would it be?" And Chuck says, "Well, maybe the demon blood makes you feel stronger or more in control?" And Sam says, "No, that's a lie, you're lying to me! Be on the lookout for false information in the chat right now." Yeah, so I mean, I think we're supposed to think that what Chuck's saying is true. So I guess I'm wondering in what ways- why Sam would be looking to feel more in control or more strong? Like, what created that as an emotional need? Just like, Dean being dead, probably?

G: Yeah, Dean being dead. And like, we've talked about how his entire life, Sam feels like he's being pushed around by bigger forces. [C: Mm-hm.] And so the "more in control" comes into that. I'm more fascinated by the fact he thinks that it's not true.

C: Well, he's saying that it's not true.

G: That doesn't mean that he doesn't think that it's not true.

C: He's probably in some amount of denial.

G: He probably is. I think the demon blood is making him feel stronger, like, in more of a like, a psychological thing than a physical thing, you know? 'Cause like, I mean, a part of it is that, like, you know, "You never needed the feather to fly, Dumbo." Yeah, that's probably true. But like, the fact that "This thing is going to make me better, and I'm taking it." Like, that does something. And like, I feel like the implication of Ruby's lines is like, you know, like, the whole demon blood thing is just to make Sam more comf- like, believe in himself more. And you have to really lean into it, you know, and like, the demon blood is making him lean into it, i.e. fighting the demons or whatever.

C: Yeah. I mean, he ended Season 3 with like, he'd been trying the whole year to save Dean, and it wasn't working. And then, near the last second, Ruby was like, "There's something that I could have trained you with to like, kill Lilith and save Dean, but it's too late now." Yeah, I mean, I guess it is important for him to like, take that chance now and be like, "I'm doing what I couldn't do last year, and that means that I feel a lot more in control psychologically and such."

Chuck says, "I'm sorry, Sam. I know it's a terrible burden, feeling that it all rests on your shoulders." And Sam goes, "Does it? All rest on my shoulders?" And it's delivered well. He looks scared and sad and like he already knows the answer, and it's good. It's a good moment. And Chuck goes, "That seems to be where the story is headed."

G: Which is so odd, 'cause he did just say, "But the angels said that Dean is the one who's gonna stop it."

C: He's just therapizing Sam, right? He's just like, asking leading questions to try to hear more about what he feels about the demon blood. [G: Mm. Okay.] I don't think that he's like, "It is fully because of Dean, and like, I'm telling you this fact." I think he's just like, "Well, didn't the angels say this? So why are you still doing this?" I think it's separate from like, what he sees is gonna happen.

G: God, that's miserable. But that is like, quite nice of Chuck to be like, "Yeah, you're the one who's gonna either save everyone or fuck everything up. But also, how [C laughs] do you want to talk about your feelings?"

C: Yeah. I mean, he did feel guilt earlier about, you know, killing their mom and all that, whatever. And he would also feel emotionally attached to his characters a bit by this point, I think. So I get it.  [G: Yeah.] "Do you wanna talk about your feelings, Sam?"

G: That's his babies.

C: That's blorbo from his books.

Sam asks, "Am I strong enough to stop Lilith tonight?" And Chuck says, "I don't know. I haven't seen that far yet." Sorry, Sam. [laughs]

G: We go back to Dean, and he is in the middle of the road, just lying down. We see him like, open his eyes slowly. This shot, everybody uses the shot for something or other.

C: They do?

G: 'Cause it's like, a closeup of Dean's eyes as he opens them.

C: Oh, I didn't notice 'cause, again, when Dean's on screen, I stopped looking. [G laughs]

G: And the lady in front of them is wearing super dangly star earrings.

C: Yeah, they look great.

G: And so that's the stars that the prophecy or the book was talking about. Dean was still seeing stars. The woman is apologizing. "I'm so sorry. We hit you. Are you okay?" And then she goes, "Oh, also my little daughter has been going through a doctor phase," and then we pan to the other side, and Dean's face is covered by pink, flowery band-aids.

C: Imagine you hit a man with your car, [G: I know!] and then your daughter runs out and starts trying to put pink flower band-aids on his face. Like, would you not stop her [laughing] and remove the band-aids? [both laughing] You're like, "Yes, please go ahead and desecrate the body of this man I just hit with a car."

G: "Hey, man, I know we just hit you with our minivan, [C laughing] and you're collapsed on the ground, probably concussed. But, you know, you have band-aids on your face, so, good luck!" [C: Yeah.] It's just- this is so irresponsible! Like, this isn't just like, a soft hit. Because, like, I understand that like, you hit someone, and like, it bruises their side. Like, that does happen. They don't collapse, but their side is bruised. That is already like, pretty bad, I think. But this guy legitimately went to the ground. Like, passed out! [C: Yeah.] And they're like, "Oops. Sowwy!" Like, what? [C laughs] And who fucking goes to a guy who collapsed on the ground and be like, "Hey! Didn't see you. Are you okay?"

C: Yeah, also, "I let my daughter play doctor with your possibly dead body. Sorry about that!"

G: [laughing] This family is hilarious. So fucking true. And then Dean gets up, and yeah, the car is like, fucking broken. The back is completely shattered.

C: The Impala got whacked to shit.

G: What the fuck did they even steal inside there?

C: I don't know. Everything that's good is in the trunk.

G: Everything that's good is in the trunk. Where the hell is Sam's laptop?

C: Oh, Dean took it! 'Cause he didn't want Sam doing research. Oh my god, did they steal his laptop?

G: [laughs] They're gonna open that thing, and it's gonna have multiple tabs open about various like, mythical Supernatural creatures, and then it's also gonna be like, fucking virused [C laughing] to hell and back because Dean keeps trying to watch it porn in it. [C: Yeah.] Like, that's gonna be a horrible laptop. Good luck.

C: Is Sam like, a "keep tabs open" guy, or is he like, the "it's really important that you shut down your laptop regularly for its health" kind of guy.

G: I think Sam has multiple folders on his bookmarks, and like, multiple stuff inside of the folders of his bookmark. Just like me for real!

C: Yeah, I agree. I think he has that, but he does shut down his laptop and clear all his tabs each time, 'cause like, again, Dean uses his laptop sometimes [G: No, yeah.], so yeah, it's bookmarked instead of keeping tabs open. What a nice, organized young man.

G: Yeah. I also really love when browsers let you like, close the window, and then when you open it back up, it reloads all the tabs when you closed it. [C: Oh, yeah.] Wonderful. I think Sam should also do that. Why not?

C:  Okay. So like, the thing is like, is it so bad to drive the car with the window like, missing? [G: The car?] I'm saying, if Dean wanted to go against Chuck's prophecy, like, he didn't have to add the tarp. Like, is it like, necessary?

G: The air is gonna go inside the car and everything. [C: Yeah.] And you won't be able to speak to each other because it's so noisy.

C: But like, if Dean cares so much about not having Lilith come, like, you'd think you could deal with that.

G: No, but at this point it's like-

C: "Well, it's gonna happen." Yeah.

G: Like, he's not upset that Lilith is gonna come later. He's upset that Sam is not upset that Lilith is gonna come. [C: Ya.]

-

G: Dean goes to Chuck's house, and he is uppysetty. [C laughs] He's saying like, "Oh, I just got hit by a minivan. I can't believe everything you write comes true, and all you say is 'Oh?'" And it's like, yeah. And Chuck is scared of Dean. He's saying, "Please don't yell at me," blah blah blah. And Dean is saying like, "Why are you not telling us like? How do you know what you know?" And then eventually, somebody shows up. It's Cas.

C: Well, he shoves Chuck. He shoves Chuck, and that's what causes Cas to show up. I feel like that's important.

G: Oh, yeah, this is like, Cas is reacting to Chuck thing.

C: A reaction to to Chuck being physically threatened, yeah.

G: Cas says, "Dean, let him go." And "This man is to be protected." It is fun whenever they do the pan to Cas when he appears somewhere. [C: Yeah.] And it's like, OMG, it's Cas!

C: Yeah, yeah. Ugh. This scene does make me kind of crazy, 'cause, you know, two episodes ago. Cas reiterated his enduring faith in God and all that shit, and now he's like, here in the room with him, and like, he doesn't even know! He just like, rescued God. And he doesn't know!

G: Yeah. Cas says, "He's the prophet of the Lord!" And Chuck recognizes him, and Cas goes, "Yeah, it's an honor to meet you, Chuck. I admire your work." What if Chuck wanted to fuck Cas?

C: Well, what's the familial relationship between God and the angels?

G: [laughs] That's true! Well, if Chuck is God at this point [C: Yeah.], I don't know what their familial relationship would be. The archangels are definitely God's children. Like, that's their dad.

C: Well, Cas calls God "father," right?

G: I call God "father."

C: [laughs] True. Doesn't mean anything

G: Doesn't mean anything. Sorry, God. [C laughs] I didn't mean that. It does mean something. But like, [laughing] yeah. I don't know. 'Cause like, it is a bit- I mean, we already said in the past that we'll get more into it once the weird angel relationships starts happening.

C: Yeah, I feel the angels call each other brother and sister, but probably just in the way that, like, nuns and monks. Just 'cause like, if they were actually all meant to be fully siblings, they would not have the Cas/Hannah story line that they have.

G: Exactly. And also, it's just like, for example, like, Cas and Balthazar, like, that's a different relationship from Cas-Gabriel, and, I don't know. Cas and Uriel. And it's just obviously like, different siblings have different relationships with each other. [C: Yeah.] I don't know!

C: I don't know. Yeah, I just think they wouldn't have done Cas/Hannah if they truly thought all angels were fully related to each other.

G: I don't know. It's odd. Supernatural is an odd, odd show when it comes to the angel relationship.

C: Yeah.

G: Also, if Cas is an angel- Cas is an angel. [C laughs] I don't know why I'm thinking of it like that. And then if reapers are also angels, then what is the relation of April and Cas? 'Cause April was an angel. [C: Yeah.] A reaper angel. So what's that? And like, is a reaper so distant from angels already that that's like, unrelated? How about the Cupid?

C: 'Cause reapers don't serve God, they serve like, Death. Like, the Apocalypse guy. So that's like, different.

G: Yeah. So like, what is that? And also, there's also the thing with- I mean, not the thing. But like, there's also like, a cherub, or something in this show?

C: A cupid?

G: A Cupid. Like, what's- a Cupid is an angel, but like, it's a specific type of angel. [C: Yeah.] And what does that mean in terms of like, angel hierarchy and relations?

C: I don't think they thought about it.

G: Is this like a "We are thinking so much about it in human terms, when these beings are not human" kind of situation.

C: Maybe.

G: But like, also Supernatural’s so human-centric.

C: Yeah, they think about everything in human terms.

G: So like, I don't know.

C: Yeah, and we will never know because Supernatural is confusing and inconsistent.

G: Supernatural is like, pinnacle of too many cooks in a soup. [laughs] Is that true? Too many cooks in a soup?

C: Too many cooks in the kitchen?

G: Too many. Yes. Making the soup. [laughing] I don't know where the soup is from.

C: I don't think there's a soup in there. [G laughs]

G: Too many spoons in the soup? Is that also-

C: I've not heard that.

G: There's a soup phrase- there's a soup version of this phrase, I'm so sure.

C: I've never heard a soup version of this phrase, but I believe you.

G: Thank you.

G: Dean is like, "Whoa, this guy's a prophet? Like, that's not true! That's a lie, you're lying to me!" Yeah, he asks if Chuck knew about this, and Chuck was like, "I've had dreams about it. But like, I didn't wanna fucking write it or tell you 'cause it sounds so fucking preposterous and arrogant! Yeah, you can write yourself into a story, but like, as a prophet like, that's fucking annoying as fuck."

C: He was totally fine with calling himself a god like, an hour ago.

G: Yeah, but calling yourself a god IRL is like, fine. But calling yourself a god in a story is like, "Dude, shut the fuck up." [C laughs] Dean asks if it means Chuck is deciding their fate, and Cas says, "No, he's not. He is just a conduit for the inspired word." And Dean is like, the Word of God? Like the New Testament?

C: The New New Testament.

G: And Cas says, "These books, one day, they'll be known as the Winchester Gospel." [C laughs] Annoying as fuck. I hate that. [C: Yeah.] And Dean and Chuck are in disbelief. Chuck specifically is like, "Oh, god!" And they both say, "You've got to be kidding me." and Cas goes, "I am not. Kidding you." [C laughs] He's so funny! He's so funny. [C: Yeah.] He's so charming and cute. Chuck, he is distressed. He goes away. And Dean goes, "Him? Really?" And Cas says, "You should have seen Luke." Dean asks how this shit is chosen, and Cas says, "I don't know. It comes from higher up the celestial chain of command." That is interesting to me because it does add to the "Cas doesn't know shit, they don't tell him much." Dean asks if there's any way to get around prophecies, and specifically the Sam/Lilith love connection. Cas says, "Whatever the prophet has written cannot be unwritten. As he is seen it, so it will come to pass." I suppose it's not the writing. It's just, you know as he has seen it.

C: But also, yeah, "What he has written can't be unwritten." But I guess he could just be talking about that metaphorically.

-

C: We go back to the Red Motel, and, you know, Dean's like, "Sam, we're getting the fuck out of here. Come on." He realizes that Sam burned all of the hex bags because Sam wants Lilith to come here if she's going to.

G: Dramatic as fuck. There's like, woods beside this motel. [C laughs] You could just throw it in the woods or something.

C: And Dean says, "No, this isn't an 'if.' Chuck is a prophet. Cas showed up and told me about all that shit." And Sam goes, "Okay." And Dean's like, "So we're getting out?" and Sam’s like, “No.” And he says, “Maybe Lilith will slaughter me. Maybe she won't. And there's only one way to find out if I can take her, and I say, bring her on.” Is it Chuck's conversation with him that really strengthened his resolve here? It's like, "It does all rest on me, and I've decided that I want it over sooner rather than later."

G: Yes, I suppose, but also, he is still pretty pissed at Lilith, just in general.

C: That's true.

G: I mean, later, the thing he says is like, [dramatically] "She'll die, no matter what." Like, okay. Loser. [C laughs] I'm sorry! Well, maybe he is!

C: Dean is reluctant, and Sam goes like, "Oh, you think you'll do it. Like, you think I'll go darkside." [G laughs] And Dean goes like, "Yes!" And then he says, "The way you've been acting lately? The things you've been doing?" And then the two things that he lists that Sam's been doing that means that he's going to be evil is that [laughing] he killed Alastair, and he's been using his psychic powers. Wow! It's literally soo evil to kill a demon that you wanted to kill yourself, Dean. And then to use your powers to kill demons that you want to kill.

G: Yeah, I mean, Sam does like, look up and is like, "Oh, no." Like, he thinks Chuck has told Dean or something. And then, like, Sam goes, "What else did he tell you?" and Dean says, "Nothing I don't already know," which is so fun. So fun!

C: Well, okay, he said that Cas told him about the killing Alastair thing. So when Sam asks "What else did he tell you?" does he think- I guess he knows the angels know about the demon blood thing because of what Uriel said in 4.07. So I guess that's why. So okay. So it's Chuck and the angels all know Sam's secret, and he wants to keep that from Dean. So, okay, Cas does know? Why hasn't Cas told Dean? Does Cas know?

G: Maybe Cas doesn't know.

C: Yeah. But okay, at the time when Uriel knew, though, like, Cas was superior, so Cas would have known.

G: Yeah. But they gave Cas the job of being Dean's honeypot [C laughs] so like, they just didn't tell him a lot of shit.

C: But if the point of 4.03 was "We're telling you the full story about Sam so you'll stop him from what he's doing," like, wouldn't it be helpful to know that like, Sam's currently drinking demon blood so that Dean will try even harder to stop him? Maybe Uriel didn't know. Maybe he was just saying shit.

G: [laughs] Yeah, exactly.

C: Sam say, "It's not what you think," and Dean's like, "Well, no, I think it is." And then he grabs his bag and he's gonna leave, but Sam refuses, and Dean, you know he walks angrily out, but before he goes, he drops his bag down on the chair again. Which is, I think, a nice wordless communication of like, "Okay, fine. If you're staying, I'm staying."

G: "But I'll leave to like, just step out for a bit." Yeah, it is. I do- okay, so you mentioned Uriel's words to Sam, right?

C: Should we review exactly what he said so we can understand? Yeah.

G: I want to know. 'Cause like, is the thing that he's berating Sam for just associating with Ruby? Because I think that is a reasonable thing for Uriel to be like, "Oh, Sam-"

C: Uriel specifically says that "You so brazenly use the power Azazel gave you," is what he says. So he's talking about like, "Don't use your abilities."

G: You can still say that about Sam without knowing that he drank demon blood, I think. Right?

C: Yeah, yeah. Uriel mentions that Azazel's "profane blood" is pumping through Sam's veins, but he doesn't mention Ruby's profane blood.

G: Yeah, like, if we can assume that the angels can smell like, the demon blood, which I think there is some kind of- yeah. So like, if Uriel smells like, a demonic something in Sam, he could just be like, "And that's Azazel's blood."

C: Azazel's leftovers, yeah.

G: Yeah, not like, Ruby. So I think that does make sense.

C: Yeah, yeah.

G: Sometimes I think, like, if Sam was just a kinky guy who like, did bloodplay [C laughs], would Dean, upon finding this out, be like, "And you're fucking evil, Sam!" [C laughs] 'Cause like, the way Chuck says it earlier is like, "Sucking blood, you gotta know that's bad, right?" And it's like, if it's like a kink thing-

C: So bloodplay is also evil? [both laugh]

G: Yeah, like, what's going on here? What if he eats someone out, and they're on their period? Like, okay. So what now? [laughing]

C: "Sucking blood? You gotta know that's wrong." Yeah, it's like- you mentioned previously that it's like, the association with it as being like, something vampires do. And I know during the Zachariah's version of Dean's voicemail, Dean calls Sam a vampire, right?

G: Damn. That's real fun.

C: So I guess there's that. I don't know. I think it's also the fact that it's with a demon. Like, if he was doing blood play with like, a human woman, maybe it'd be fine?

G: I mean, that's what I'm asking. Like, would Dean still be like, "Oh my god, you're just like a vampire for real. [C laughs] Like, you're fucking evil."

C: I- yeah. I don't know. It might be more like, "You should know that this is like, a dangerous thing to do. It's probably like- the evil blood in you is probably doing something." I don't know.

Dean goes outside, and I see the blue lights of like, the ice machine and the pink lights over the doors, and I go, "Oh my god! It's time!"

G: It's this scene! It's this scene!

C: It's time! So he goes, just to the air, "Well, I feel stupid doing this, but I am fresh out of options. So please-" and he sort of spreads his arms out a bit, and he goes, "I need some help. I'm praying, okay? Come on, please!" And then a voice behind him says, [G exclaims] "Prayer is a sign of faith. This is a good thing, Dean." And it's Cas! Hello, Cas! Hello!

G: And I love this specifically because of turny-turn. Like, they do this a lot in Supernatural. Like, having Dean turn and Cas is there. Super fun. Super fun!

C: It's great! It's so good. So what does he mean by that?

G: What do you mean? The "prayer is a sign of faith"?

C: Yeah, "This is a good sign" or "a good thing."

G: I think it's just that he trusts some kind of Heavenly power to help him.

C: Right, 'cause it is a difference between like, "I don't want to save the world. I can't do it. Find someone else. I don't trust what God has chosen for me." [G: Yeah.] Do you think that 4.17 affected him at all? Like, he doesn't act like, it ever happened. But do you think that's part of it?

G: I really don't. Because, like, the Cas thing is not- like, he's not asking Cas to be like, "Help me out as an angel." It's like, "Help me out with the stuff that you know as an angel and with your angel powers, but to [dramatically] thwart the will of God!" You know. Like, it's a different thing. [C: Yeah. Yeah.] He's still not cooperating, but he's now just think- he's now like, "Okay, Cas. Help me out." Like, he wouldn't do this with any other angel, you know?

C: He doesn't name Cas during the prayer. He doesn't specify that it's him. I don't think he knows that it'll be him.

G: Really?

C: Yeah. I think he's just asking the general void. Do you think he's asking Cas specifically?

G: I think so.

C: Well, he didn't say it, so.

G: That's fascinating. So you think this is just a void prayer?

C: Yeah. He just said that he's out of options. I feel like this is just like a "I'm just tossing this out here."

G: "Anyone who can help"? Yeah. God, that makes me emo. There's a scene in Season 9 where he prays to Cas, like, specifically to Cas. Like, "Whatever you did, please just be here." And then when Cas doesn't reply, I mean, Cas can't hear him; he's human. He goes, "Okay, fine." And then he braces himself and goes to "any angel who can hear me," which is fucking something. [C: Huh.] For me, to me, personally. [C laughs]

C: Yeah. So Dean asks, like, "Does this mean you'll help me?" And Cas says, "I'm not sure what I can do." And Dean makes his demand, which to drag Sam out of here now before Lilith shows up. But Cas says he can't interfere because it's a prophecy. And then Dean says the funniest line, like, I literally laughed out loud-

G: [laughing] I know!

C: "You have tested me and thrown me every which way, and I have never asked for anything. Not a damn thing!" [both laugh]

G: Dude is doing historical revisionism right now.

C: [laughing] Literally, he self-actualized as a liar. All Dean does is ask for things! That's all he does! [laughs] He's so funny. Okay, but okay. At the beginning of the sentence, when it's like, "You have tested me," like, Cas starts to look away, probably 'cause like, he doesn't like, direct eye contact, and also Dean's been like, walking closer during that line, so like, he's like, trying to avoid confrontation. He probably feels some amount of discomfort and guilt, and like, probably especially about the forcing Dean to torture Alastair, and then learning later that that was all a plot by Uriel and it was completely unnecessary and also designed to kill Dean. So like, yeah. Sorry Cas. But then, when Dean says that "I've never asked for anything," Cas looks up, and I'm like, [laughing] "This is due to how Cas is thinking that this is a lie, and Dean is lying." And Dean goes like, "But now I'm asking. I need your help, please." Is this a usual Dean move?

G: He does this like- he closes his eyes to "please," like a- you know, he was doing like, his little like, "pwease!" face. And it's so funny to me. [C laughs] This is literally Dean fresh out of options. He will just put on a face. [C: Yeah.] "Is this Dean's usual move?" What do you mean by that?

C: Yeah, 'cause his current play is "I'm gonna make myself really vulnerable and hope that Cas, who has a soft spot for me, takes pity on me."

G: Really vulnies, yeah. Yeah.

C: What's his usual play when he's desperate? Have we seen it? Do I recall it? Do you recall it?

G: He was desperate, I suppose, in "Home" when he calls John and leaves a voicemail. [C: Yes.] That's desperation, I feel like. [C: Yeah.] And in that one, he was just like, "I'm scawed. Can you come home?"

C: So yeah, this is Dean's thing when he's out of options. He goes into little kid mode.

G: Yeah.

C: Cas says, "What you're asking, it's not within my power to do."

G: He does like, a little look up before he starts talking [C: Yes. Yes.], and a part of it is like, exasperation, but also, I think, part of it is also like, at Heaven. You know, just your typical, like, Heavenly imagery of like, [C: Yeah.] when he's making a decision, and it's between Dean, who is in front of him, and the Heavenly powers that be, which is above, like, he looks up too.

C: Yeah. And I think it's also a "God, please come and help" as well sort of gesture. And, I mean, in a way God does come and help. Dean just has to threaten him at gunpoint to do so.

G: For real. [laughs] Typical God behavior. [C laughs]

C: Yeah. And Dean's like, "Oh, why? Because it's divine prophecy." And Cas says forcefully, [both] "Yes." You know, Dean's like, "What. So we're supposed to sit around and wait for it to happen?" And Cas just says, "I'm sorry." And like, before he does it, he sort of like- he presses his mouth together and looks with his big, wet, sad eyes for a few seconds [G giggles] before he like, goes, "I'm sorry."

G: [laughing] I'm literally giggling, twirling my hair. [giggles] And yeah, Dean gets super mad at this. He says, "Screw you."

C: Yeah, he goes, "Screw you. You and your mission. Your God. If you don't help me now, then, when the time comes and you need me, don't bother knocking." He really will just do this.

G: He's so funny, yeah.

C: "We're done."

G: "We're done! [laughs] It's over!" He's just like Aziraphale for real.

C: Really, truly, fully. And he leaves- I like the way he leaves, because it's not like he turns around and walks away from Cas. He walks towards Cas so that he can basically shouldercheck him as he walks past him. It's a confrontational form of walking away.

G: It is kind of important to me, 'cause like, I mentioned in the last episode- or I think in "On the Head of a Pin" that, like, Dean knows that Cas likes him and is using that specifically as like a, "Oh, you'll do this thing for me because you like me. Oh, you're not gonna do it? Well, fuck you personally! I don't like you! [C laughs] We're enemies!" [C laughs] And I said there that like, I think the first time that happens specifically, where like, Cas responds to that by being like, "Okay, I'm gonna do it for you 'cause you're pissed, and not specifically because I believe in whatever it is" blah blah blah, even though, like, he does believe in it. It's just like, the main thing that causes the action-

C: The impetus, yeah.

G: - is that Dean is gonna stop talking to him 5ever because of this.

C: "Do something, or I'll... never speak to you again!"

G: I said there that the first time that happens is in "Lazarus Rising," but it's happening here right now! It's happening here right now. Crazy.

C: We're seeing it. Yeah, I mean, Cas's face journey during Dean's little speech was- Cas looks down at "Screw you," which I think is like, the shame and the sadness thing again. God. Poor guy. You could do so much better! But anyway, [laughs] at the "Your god" part, Cas looks up sort of resentfully, so like, it is like, a "Hey, don't mock me for my faith. You still have to be niceys to God" and all that shit. And then once Dean starts heading away like, Cas starts looking down like, kind of thoughtfully. And then, like, after a little bit of thinking, he's like, "Okay, yeah, I've decided I'm gonna help." He goes, "Dean." And Dean's still walking, so he goes, again, "Dean." And Dean turns around and he's like, "What?" And Cas says [G screams], "You must understand-"

G: Wait wait wait! He turns around, faces Dean, and his face just does a complete change. 'Cause before, his face is of like, he's sad, and he's like, apologetic, almost. [C: Yeah.] And then here, it's just fully like, gameface. A little bit of- a hint of a smile, even. [C: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.] And it's like, "Oh, Cas!" It's like, he figured out how to help!

C: He's so please with himself that he's like, "Oh, I know how to help you without going against my orders!"

G: Yeah, he's so pleased. He's so pleased.

C: He goes like, "You must understand why I can't intercede. Prophets are very special. They're protected." And Dean's just like, frowning and like, "I don't know what you're going after." And Cas says, "If anything threatens a prophet, anything at all, an archangel will appear to destroy that threat. Archangels are fierce. They're absolute. They're Heavens most terrifying weapon." And then in Season fucking 13 or- no. Season 14? No. 12? Whatever. I'm just thinking of the Lucifer-Michael fight that looks so bad.

G: [laughing] Where they levitate into the air? They're so fun- Supernatural is so unserious. [C laughing] Oh, by the way, like, to add to the face Cas thing. Like, here, when he's saying the words, he is like, doing a face also. He's like, scrunching his face. [C: Yeah!] Like, when he goes, "They're fierce. They're absolute." And he's like- [laughing] I don't know! This guy is like, we should put him in a theater production, I think! [C laughing] He's giving it his all!

C: And by "this guy," we mean Castiel.

G: We mean Castiel, yeah.

C: Misha Collins can fuck off forever. But yeah.

G: Yeah, it's so cute. It's so cute. [C: He's so cute.] And I think a part of it is like, trying to communicate to Dean, that like, "I'm trying to tell you something else. Like, read deeper into my words." But it's so cute!

C: Yeah. And I feel like Cas is always so like, direct and stuff. [G: Yeah.] Like, I feel like this is like, his first try at being sneaky.

G: That's true. This is his baby's first mini revolt. Like he's- Also like, it's just 'cause- I think I've mentioned this before, that Cas has a tendency to when he speaks, say what he wants to say first and not answer Dean's questions, right? He will go into a conversation, say everything he has to say, and a lot of times not even interact directly with what the fuck Dean is trying to tell him, especially in the earlier episodes he's in. In this one, I feel like this is cute in a way, because it's like, as you said, he is trying to be sneaky, and so he is trying to tell Dean something, but now he has to find a way to work around it, and that's what makes it such a fun, fun, fun, fun conversation. Because Cas, who is usually so like, direct to the point that, like, sometimes it doesn't even feel like he's having a conversation, it feels like he's just saying things by himself, here, it's like, this is so obviously like, communication. Like, "I'm trying to communicate something." And it's fun. I think it's fun. I think it's fun.

C: Yeah, it's good. So Dean's starting to catch on, and goes like, "And these archangels, they're tied to prophets? So if a prophet was in the same room as a demon..."

G: He starts walking towards Cas, yeah.

C: Yeah. And the camera angle on Cas on this next line [G exclaims] is so fun. Like, it's sort of like, under him.

G: It's close to his face, yeah! Like, above his chin, kind of.

C: He looks so cute. He looks like kind of like a chipmunk, [G giggles] but like, in the best way possible. [G: Yeah!] I think because of the way the light is reflecting off his teeth and also how they look bigger because of the angle.

G: His eyes. Yeah. He looks like a little hamster!

C: Yeah! Yeah. He goes, "Then the most fearsome wrath of Heaven would rain down on that demon."

G: Yeah, he's holding his chin up. Like, he's- [exclaims]

C: Cas!

G: And you know, Dean figures out- Dean figures out what he's saying. And he does a little like- he tilts his head to the side, and he purses his lips in a "Mm-hm?" kind of facial expressions, and then he goes, "Just so you understand..." And then he turns his head to the side. His eyes are also going to like, some faraway place. And he goes, "why I can't help." And he's just looking away.

C: Yeah, he's soo fun.

G: Yeah, he's fully looking away.

C: It's a smaller mode of his statue mode thing in 4.16 except he's like, roleplaying it now.

G: And like, I love this because it's like, it's fake casualness, right? Like, it's to pretend that like, "Oh, we're having a conversation that is so casual that I don't even have to look you in the eye for it, 'cause like, this information is not personal whatsoever and doesn't matter whatsoever." [C: Yeah.] And then like, I don't know. It's cute.

C: But yeah, he can't hold it.

G: Yeah, it's cute because, like, first of all, it's just Dean here, so he doesn't have to do the casualness whatsoever. The words are still the same, you know, like, even if he doesn't do this look-look thing. But he was like, "You know what? I'm here to prove that Uriel may be the funniest angel in the garrison, [C laughing] but I am the best thespian in all of history, so it's fine."

C: Okay. And then he slyly slides his eyes back around. He looks back.

G: Yeah! He's so- And his head is still tilted away, so it's like, looking from the corner of his eyes.

C: Yeah, it's just his eyes that move.

G: Yeah. And it's such a cunty flick of the eye, too. It's not like he's looking slowly towards Dean, it's like, "Bam." It's so- go Cas. He is so slaycation.

C: Yeah. And Dean says, "Thanks, Cas."

G: "Thanks, Cas."

C: And then Cas, who before all this, was like, trying to do the "plausible deniability, I'm being so sneaky" thing, and also, in the past, who would always just leave whenever at the end of a conversation as soon as the information that is meant to be conveyed- like, does not stick around for pleasantries, he breaks all of those habits by saying, "Good luck."

G: "Good luck." [C exclaims] It is important to me.

C: Yeah!

G: Also, like, there is like, you know, whenever- 'cause with me, when I say good luck, it's always- and it's someone I know who like, is religious, or like, not even religious. Just, you know someone who exists around me, in the same culture as me, so I know they're like, Catholic in some way or whatever. I always say "good luck and God bless." But like, when it's like, something that like, I know this is a person who would not like to be said "God bless" to [C laughs] or like, it's a situation where [laughs] it's not about God's blessing, it's just about being lucky, like, I just say "good luck." You know, and it's like, those words have different implications. And so whenever anyone in media does say "good luck," I do think about- like, obviously, this is not the intention of like, most American shows. Like, when people say "good luck"-

C: Yeah, they don't say "God bless" often.

G: They don't also say "good luck and God bless." But like, whenever these things happen in anything, I do think about the fact that like, "Oh, he's not saying 'God bless' too, so like, that means something." And like, for most of the time, that means absolutely nothing. But here, like, to me, it does mean something! Because, like, it's good luck, and it's not about God's blessing at all because he's directly going against God's blessing. [C: Yeah.] And that is important to me. "Good luck."

C: He says in 4.16 that angels are the masters of fate, but like, yeah, this is different. Good luck.

G: He says, "Good luck."

C: Yeah. When do you- At what point during this conversation, do you think Cas was like, "I'm going to give Dean this information"?

G: I think it's the "Screw you." [C: Okay.] "Screw you and your mission and your god." And when he goes, [tearily] "When you need me, you can't ever get to me!" [both laughing] Go, Dean.

C: [laughs] Yeah. So that was scene of all time.

G: Scene of all time. The rest of this episode is kind of whatever. I mean, it's not kind of whatever. It's a genuinely good episode. But nothing will ever be Cas and Dean under the neon light of that motel room scene.

C: Yeah, I guess Dean was also there. [both laugh] So-

-

G: Dean is now going to Chuck's house. When he gets in there, Chuck is like, "Oh my god, you're here!" which is like fun because it's like, "Oh, it's going against the story" or whatever. And he goes, "What are you doing here? I didn't write this." Ah! I love it! And then he's telling Chuck like, "Come with me to the motel, I need you to stop Lilith." And then Dean is like "Okay, 'cause you're a prophet, if you go there, an archangel will just kill every demon around you." And Chuck is like, "No, but I haven't seen that yet! Like, the story is not going there." And Dean says, "Chuck, you're the only shot I've got left." And Chuck says, "But I'm just a writer!" He's just a little guy. [C laughs] And yeah, Dean says, "This isn't a story anymore. This is real and you're in it. And I need you to get off your ass and fight!" Chuck feels- it seems like he's convincing Chuck, and then Chuck just goes, "No freaking way." And Dean's like, "Okay, fine. I have like, a bunch of guns, and if you don't come with me, I'll shoot you." [both laughing] [C: Slay!] And Chuck is like, "Well, I thought I was protected by an archangel," and Dean said, "Well, I mean, let's see what's the quicker draw." [laughing] He's so fucking funny.

We go to Sam, who is in the motel room. And he opens the door when there's a knock, and then suddenly, Lilith is not in front of the door, but when he closes the door, Lilith is inside the room already. And she goes, "Hello, Sam!" And Sam says, "I've been waiting for you." And her eyes does the rolly white thing, which is, you know, fun! I still don't know what the fuck that means Alastair, but whatevs. So Lilith is like, “Okay, where's the knife?” And Sam’s like, “It's by the bed."

C: Why wouldn't he just put it in his pocket?

G: He's trying to get Lilith to walk there.

C: Yes. It's still- I don't know. There's got to be another one way to bait her. Couldn't he just be sitting on the bed?

G: Yeah, but he has to open the door?

C: Okay, fine. He could go sit on the bed after he opens the door.

G: [laughs] He opens the door and then he sprints back to the bed to sit there. [C laughs] So true. So Lilith starts walking, but she feels that there's a devil's trap right before she steps into it, and so she lifts the rug and like, basically like, destroys the devil's trap. Lilith's just like, "Oh, you're gonna have to try a lot harder than that, Sam."

C: They don't enough shoving in Supernatural. Can't they just shove her into the devil's trap? [G: Yeah, that's true.] Why do they always have to be tricking the demons into walking into them? [G laughs] Like, literally, just shove them.

G: Sam raises his hand and does the whole like, I don't know, trying to destabilize Lilith or whatever. But Lilith says, "You're strong, but you're not that strong, not yet." And it shows 'cause her hair is being blown by the wind a la shampoo commercial, but it's not hurting her. And Sam says, "Why don't you throw me around, then?" And Lilith says, "Because I can't, and you know it. You're immune to my charms. We're at a stalemate." Interesting!

C: Yeah, that's interesting. I do wish they did not sexualize Lilith, though. I mean, they already did it in 3.16, when she sexually assaults him. But I would just like a villain who is a woman who is not like this. And we had that! And then we don't.

G: I mean, the part that I thought was interesting was that they're immune to each other.

C: It is a stalemate thing. That is neat.

G: Is Sam immune from every demon like, in this way?

C: I guess, 'cause like, Lilith's probably like, top dog in Hell, so.

G: Because I think about the fact that Alastair tried to throw him in that graveyard and just couldn't, right? And we were like, "Why is that?" And yeah, apparently, the reason why is Sam is immune. You know, whatever it is that's making Sam immune, why did it just disappear after Season 4 and 5? And also, why didn't he just keep on drinking demon blood to make him stay immune?

C: Well, first, okay, yeah, what it was was demon blood. But second, 'cause Dean was so mean about it.

G: It's just- I think it's irresponsible [C laughs], like, at that point, to not utilize this power. If you can find a way to do it ethically. I don't know. Befriend a demon- which they did do.

C: Yeah, true. He and Crowley should have sucked and fucked their way through all those seasons of Supernatural.

G: For real! And isn't Crowley- Crowley has that whole thing with like, "I want to be loved!" when he gets injected human blood, so they should have just kept exchanging blood.

C: Stupid-ass storyline. I mean, maybe it's fine, but just the fact that it's triggered by being injected with human blood. Hilarious, stupid.

G: [laughs] It's so funny! Well, yeah, whatever.

C: Every time like, a demon gets injured and passes out and then someone calls 911 and they get taken to the hospital while unconscious and then get a blood transfusion, they wake up crying and wanting to be loved.

G: It's just- it's so stupid. Everything is so stupid in Supernatural.

C: They love biodeterminism soo much.

G: They do! Like, what is even in a blood? Sincerely, what is in a blood? [C laughs] Like, that's so stupid!

C: I don't know. Magic particles. Particles of magic.

G: And I mean, everybody has said this to hell and back, but like, if we're gonna commit to the "Sam is a witch" bit, what makes a witch different enough to need witch-killing bullets?

C: To need a special bullet!

G: Like, that's just a human being who does magic. How much magic do you need to do to qualify as a witch? What if you don't even call yourself a witch, you're just like, "Oh, I'm interested in it, but it's like, an academic discipline. It's not like, a religious-" like, what happens then? [C: I don't know.] "I'm not into the whole like, worshipping demons thing, but I do love to do a trick here and there." Like, does that make you a witch? What's happening? And why does it become biological? Like, that is the most unbiological, like, supernatural quote-unquote "thing" to be, 'cause that's just a human being who found a book. Like, what's happening?

C: [laughs] I don't know. We'll never know due to how it's a bad show that is bad. [G laughs]

G: Well, yeah. [C: Yeah.] Lilith says she's here not to throw Sam around, but just to talk because, yeah, she is offering a standdown because she wants to stop breaking the seals and all that because she won't survive the war. Turns out, she will be killed off right before the good bits start.

C: Yeah, Sam is incredibly uncurious about this. Like, I know it's because I already know, so I immediately I'm like, "I mean it's 'cause she is the last seal," but like, wouldn't one be able to sort of guess from this wording that, like, she is the last seal?

G: I think you would be able to guess that her death is essential [C: Yeah.], like, her death is essential to starting the Apocalypse. And Sam is smart. Sam is smart. And he is in this situation as someone who has been in this situation for a long time. Like, I feel like he understands the like, fucking like, whatever logic Supernatural is running, and he lives in this world. And so I think he should like, hear this and be like, "Okay. Huh?"

C: He should at least ask a question about it.

G: Yeah, but he absolutely DGAF.

C: Yeah, I guess, is just that he's been so focused on revenge for so long. blah blah blah, that he's just not even paying attention. Because he says later, "I never even considered taking the deal," [G: Yeah!] so probably the whole time, he's just thinking, "How do I get to the knife? How do I get to the knife?"

G: Isn't that absolutely crazy? [C: I know!] He didn't even think to consider it.

G: But yeah, Lilith says, "I want it to go back to the way it was before I had angels to deal with 24/7," and yeah, "Good old days and baby blood all the time." [C: Hell yeah.] What she wants in return is Sam and Dean's head on a stick as a consolation prize. And she goes, "What do you say, Sam? Self-sacrifice is the Winchester way, isn't it?" Sam is like, "Oh, you think I'm so stupid that I'm gonna do this?" And she says, "I make a deal. I have to follow through. Those are the rules, and you know it. Are you really so arrogant that you would put your life before the lives of 6 billion innocent people? Maybe it's all that demon blood pumping through your pipes. Man after my own heart." It's so annoying to me! [C: Mm-hm.] Sorry- that they made Lilith like this.

C: It's annoying to me also.

G: I don't know. It's just- It's so- specifically, it annoys me because we have Lilith, who was so fun.

C: Yeah, she was great, and then they made her an adult woman and immediately fucked her up.

G: I don't know. I feel like Lilith had so much personality, you know? [C: Yeah.] Like, she has like, a specific cadence, specific way of being, and like, those are interesting things.

C: Specific wants, and they were very different from these wants.

G: And then like now, they put her in a hot woman [C laughs] and put her in a black dress, which they put every hot demon woman that they have in, and it's like, she just becomes a generic hot demon woman in a black dress!

C: Yeah, they forgot she had a personality as soon as she was fuckable.

G: I say generic because this is how every other hot demon woman in a black dress acts in this show. [C laughs] Like, i don't know. It's just- it's annoying.

C: Yeah. We've seen, what? Two crossroads demons who are hot women in black dresses whose whole thing was like, "Oh, I'm evil, and I wanna fuck you." Like, that was all of it? Yeah. And now that is all of it.

G: I mean, the charm of Lilith as a villain is, this is a little kid who is so charming and cute! And also, murdered her dog.

C: So fucked up and evil, yeah.

G: Yeah! And like, is making everyone sit down and eat cake, and it's like, you know, the fucking- it's fun. And like, 'cause again, I mean, I think we said this before, like, most child horror is like, a child who's like, standing by your door going, "Mommy, I think I frowed up." [C laughs] But like, here, it's like, she's a kid who is fun, and, you know, like, having fun!

C: She wants the exact same things that kids want, but will go to greater lengths to get them.

G: Now it's like, just- I don't know. It's annoying.

C: Yeah. It's soo funny-

G: Another thing is, what I liked about Lilith is like, she wasn't- like, her color-coding was very like, red and white, right? Which is such a fun thing, 'cause those are not the colors that they usually do for Supernatural demons. So she does stand out as like, "This is a different kind of demon." And putting her in the same outfit that they put, again, every hot demon woman that isn't Ruby in the show, and it's like, girl, shut the fuck up. I guess Meg is also a hot demon woman that they do not put in a black dress.

C: True.

G: Did they put Meg the person in a nightgown?

C: Was she? No, no, I think she had pants.

G: Okay, good.

C: Good. Well, don't worry. They put Lilith in a white nightgown before they kill her [G: Oh no!] in 4.22.

G: Well, at least, they brought back the color-coding. [both laugh] Supernatural just does not think of its female characters as people!

C: Yeah.

G: Like, being a woman always needs to have a qualifier, or else like, the term "woman" itself is the qualifier. It's like, you know, like, Bobby is a cranky old guy who is good at his job but is pretty pissed with everyone, and like, yeah. And then, you know, usually, when they have characters that are men, like, it's usually like that. And with their women characters, it's like, "hot woman." [C laughs] And that's like, their entire character.

C: Yeah, hot woman, parentheses, evil. Hot woman, parentheses, good.

G: Yeah. Yeah. Hot woman, parentheses, kind of doesn't like Dean, but also likes. And it's like, what the fuck is going on? [C laughing] If you have a female character, and their entire gimmick is that they're a woman, like, maybe you should reconsider.

C: It's very sad when Julie Siege and Sera Gamble and Raelle Tucker do it, 'cause it's like, I believe that you are a woman. [G laughs] Like, perhaps draw on that experience.

G: Supernatural already- you know, it's the aesthetic of the show. And so I understand that like, one single like, writer, blah blah blah. But sometimes, I'm like, "Sera Gamble did do like, Season 6 and 7 as a showrunner." Yeah, I don't, remember much about those seasons due to like- Season 7 specifically lacked Cas hard and so raw that I just blacked out completely. Well, actually, Charlie was in that season, and she was wonderful! Charlie immediately was such a wonderful, wonderful character, although there is something to say about the fact that they had to make her a lesbian to make Dean treat her properly. [laughs] [C: Yeah.] I mean, lots to say. [laughs] Lots to say, but we'll say it in Season 7. And she's a sister to Dean. Whatever. Who fucking- Oh my god! Supernatural is so bad. What are they doing? [C laughing]

C: Yeah, I hear it's a bad show, but some idiots still want to podcast about it.

G: Sam says, "You think I'm like you? I am nothing like you!" which is so corny.

C: Which is what Cas said to Anna in 4.16.

G: That's true. Do you think this is, one, true? Like, do you think Sam actually means it?

C: What does it mean to be like Lilith? Like, to murder a bunch of people? Sam does murder a bunch of people in cases, but like, it's not for fun.

G: I think what he's saying here is like, "I may have demon blood, but I have demon blood in a far more cooler and morally superior way than you." [C laughs] Which I mean, I think so. But also, it's not the demon blood that makes it- you know. Like, I don't fucking know.

C: Yeah, okay, I guess Lilith's point is, "I think the demon blood is making you selfish and arrogant."

G: Just like me for real, yeah.

C: And Sam's like, "I'm not selfish and arrogant the way that you're selfish and arrogant." I feel like I don't know enough about how Lilith is selfish and arrogant to come to a definite conclusion. I mean, Sam wouldn't kill his dog and make everyone eat cake, so I guess he is nothing like her.

G: Sam will only run over a dog on the street. [both laughing]

C: And then be forced to adopt it [G: Exactly.] by the worst veterinarian of all time.

G: We've had this conversation before, and I forgot the answer, but, like, is a veterinarian?

C: I forgot what her job was. We'll find out in Season 8.

G: Yeah, also, Amelia is her name, right? Which is the same name-

C: Jimmy's wife's name.

G: - as Jimmy's wife, which is so funny to me. What if Sam does get together with Jimmy's wife?

C: I mean, they switched actors for her in Season 10, so maybe it was also her in Season 8 with a different switched actor. [G: This is true.] She took a break from hunting down angels so that she could fuck a military man, and then Sam. And then, after that all went down, she was like, "No, actually, that sucks. It's back to killing angels."

G: Yeah. And the entire time, she just abandoned her daughter. [both laugh] So true!

C: Yeah, Claire's just somewhere. Maybe the dog was Claire, just like in Sherlock Season 4, where he-

G: I have no idea what you're talking about.

C: He thought that his dog died when he was a kid, and it was his greatest trauma-

G: Oh my god, yeah!

C: - but it was actually his childhood friend, Victor Trevor, who his evil secret sister shoved down a well, and due to trauma, he just imagined the guy as a dog. [both laughing] I will never not be so happy that Sherlock ended as badly as it did. 'Cause, if it ended with like, a mid, sexist, racist episode like all the other episodes, people would still like, remember it fondly or whatever. But because it just shat all over itself and then threw up all over the shit [both laughing], like, no one will ever be able to like Sherlock again, and that's so important to me. Everyone stream CBS Elementary! [G laughs]

G: So Lilith's like, "Okay, are we gonna do it? We're gonna do it. Are we gonna do it?" And then Sam is like, "Okay, fine." And at this point, she's like, on the bed, and she's patting the bed or whatever.

C: Yeah. Julie Siege was like, crazy, negative for coming up with this.

G: Yeah. She says, "By the way, a contract with me will take more than a kiss." Horrible!

C: Why? Why? Why, though?

G: Horrible! Yeah.

C: Like, why? What are the rules here? Like, the higher up a demon is, the more you have to go? Like, what's the demon level where, like, you just have to give them a handy? Like, Princes of Hell? [G laughs] Like, [laughing] what did John and Azazel have to do?

G: Exactly. Also like, what is like, "more"? Like, what's that mean?

C: Yeah, what does that mean? Okay, so like, a kiss in like, and sex are like, on the same sort of spectrum. And you go like, higher, and like, more is, what? Like, penetration? Like, are we going- yeah, we're going with heteronormative ideals, I'm assuming. So I guess highest level is penetration?

G: But what if it's anal? [both laughing] The anal version doesn't work? Like, what's happening? What if I have no penis?

C: Yeah, depending on the bodies of the people involved, like, do you have to run out and buy a strap? Like-

G: Yeah, like, do I need to have a strap-on to do it? Like, what is happening? [both laugh]

C: I don't know!

G: It's absolutely insane, fucking-

C: It's hilarious! Do you both have to come? Like, what are the rules?

G: Like, is it just like, you enter? Like, just an inch, and you're like, "Okay, it's done."

C: Yeah. Just the tip [both laugh], and then it's like, "Alright, we've done it."

G: Absolutely horrible! [C laughing] Oh, god.

C: Yeah, I just- there's a mousepad where all the specifics are printed on that they have to review for Hell orientation

G: And she goes like, "Oh, don't worry. The dental hygienist in here, she wants it bad," which is horrible.

C: Yeah. If that true, like, I mean, okay, well, that woman is dead after Lilith exits her body, right?

G: No, because I was waiting- I was fucking waiting for the woman to like, wake up.

C: Yeah, wake up! 'Cause like, she is conscious now, but like, no.

G: They're just looking at the body, and it's like-

C: They don't give a shit.

G: I thought they were looking at the body to check if she's gonna wake up.

C: Yeah, but like, it cuts, and they were just looking because "Wow, it's bad that Lilith was here." Like, they really don't care any more!

G: And also, this is super fu- We need an AU where they just bring Chuck along to be like, "Okay, we're going to enter that building, [C laughing] and you're gonna go, 'I'm Chuck Shurley, a prophet of the Lord,'" [C laughs] and like, an angel will blast down the fucking-

C: Yeah, this is the move to like, do hunting forever and ever. You're right. They should utilize this. They really will just make stuff up for Supernatural. Yeah, I am so surprised. 'Cause like, they talk about her vessel like, twice in this episode. So I was like, "Okay, like, they're going back to caring about it." But like, they don't. Also, if she's dead, how does Lilith have the same face in 4.22?

G: Maybe they just left her in that motel, and she woke up, and she was like, "What?"

C: Yeah. And then Lilith came back. Poor woman.

G: Sam approaches, and there's this shot where it's Sam thigh, and Lilith is running her hand up it, and I feel so bad for Sam. [C: Yeah.] And he leans down, exactly the way we see it in, like, Chuck's vision, but when he gets close enough, he grabs the knife on the drawer and- he is like, on top of her and like, about to stab her and everything. But before that happens, Dean and Chuck show up. And Chuck just goes in front and goes, "I am the prophet Chuck." And yeah, so true of him. And Lilith goes, "You have got to be joking."

C: Yeah. Oh, also, to be clear, once Dean and Chuck rush in, Lilith has the upper hand and she's straddling Sam and has the knife. [G: Oh, yeah yeah yeah.] So like it's not like they just prevented Sam from an easy kill. Like, Sam was gonna like, die.

G: Oh, yeah yeah yeah. Suddenly, the room begins to shake and create white light and everything.

C: Yeah. Which archangel do you think is tied to Chuck?

G: It would be real funny if it was Gabriel. Like, that'll be hilarious. [C laughs]

C: Yeah, no, he was just chillaxing, and then he goes, "Oh, fuck, I have to go do a thing."

G: So it's Raphael, Gabriel, or Michael. I think it could be Raphael, too.

C: That's true.

G: Didn't they have a thing where they summoned Raphael? How did they do that?

C: In 5.03?

G: Cas just does it? Yeah, like, their big episode.

C: I don't remember, due to how I haven't watched it.

G: I think Cas just does it. It would be interesting if they just sit there, and it's like, "Okay, we're going to like, kill you but not really. Like, let's just pretend."

C: Oh, no, if they were like, "Let's summon Raphael by like, calling Chuck over and then putting a demon in the room"?

G: Yeah, exactly. But yeah, it could be Gabriel. It could be Michael. I mean, it could be anyone. It could be either Raphael or Michael.

C: Let it be Lucifer. Why not?

G: Dean is, like, "Yeah, an archangel is gonna come here, and you're going to be a piece of charcoal. You want to tangle with that?" And she is like, "Ugh!" And she gets out of that vessel. And, as we said, the vessel's just passed out on the floor, and nobody GAF.

C: Yeah. Nobody goes to help her. I really thought in the next shot, when, like, they're in the Impala, I thought maybe the vessel would be in the backseat.

G: Would be in the back, yeah. I was waiting.

C: I was also waiting.

G: But no, it's just the tarp. It's just the tarp.

C: Yeah. They do not give a single shit.

-

C: They're in the Impala afterwards, and they're talking. Okay, Dean drove Chuck here. Did he drop Chuck off at home first before having this conversation, or was he just like, "You find your own way back?" Maybe Cas teleported him?

G: Why? Why would he teleport him? What are you talking about?

C: Well just to get Chuck back home. Just 'cause like, you know, he's supposed to protect Chuck, so maybe he's like, "Alright, I'll do you this favor 'cause Dean just left in his car."

G: For real. Chuck, the greatest danger that can befall Chuck is public transportation. [both laugh]

C: Yeah, I guess I keep forgetting that- Well, okay, it depends on the city you're in. A lot of cities have like, absolutely shit bus systems. I wonder- I don't know. They're in Illinois. I don't know much. So yeah, they're in the Impala, and they're talking about what happened. And Dean is like, "Huh, okay, so like, that was the deal. You didn't think once about taking it?" Sam goes like, "What? Are you kidding me? Like, you spent all day trying to talk me off the Lilith track." And Dean was like, "Well, I'm just saying." But Sam says that, you know, "She would have found a way to get out of it, and we would have died." Sam says that "That's not the point. The point is that, like, she is scared. Like, I could tell. Like, she's running from something." And then he says, "She was telling the truth about one thing. She's not gonna survive the Apocalypse. I'll make sure that." Okay, Sam. Would Season 1 Sam have taken the deal? I think so.

G: I think so. Also, it's just so funny to me that Dean is, like, "Running from what?" And Sam’s like, “Don't know, don't care, don't ask." [both laugh] Like, okay! Slay!

C: Yeah. Do you think Season 3 Sam would have taken the deal? What's the point at which Sam became someone who wouldn't take the deal?

G: I think Season 4.

C: I agree.

G: 'Cause Season 3, Dean was gonna die anyway, and Sam was kind of like, "I'll die with you." And also like, I don't know. It's a completely different motivation back then. It's like, keeping Dean alive. So I think maybe he would give it if it's like, "Okay, keep Dean alive. And me, I'll die. Okay, fine." But the two of them, maybe not.

C: That's true. He's very focused on having Dean stay alive at the cost of other things. Maybe not the world, though.

G: The thing is, if the deal here was like, Sam's head on a stick, Dean would not say like, "Did you even consider taking it?" But because it's Sam and Dean, it's like, "Okay."

C: "Oh, yeah, we'll be together? Yeah, that's fine." Is Dean gonna go to Hell if he dies right now?

G: Well, he should.

C: I mean, he should.

G: But also John goes to Heaven.

C: But I guess demon deals aren't forever.

G: Yeah, I mean, deals aren't forever, but there was this whole thing with Kevin where it was like-

C: Yeah! "As soon as a soul touches Hell, it can never ever go to Heaven. Except we literally let John go to Heaven in Season fucking 2!"

G: Yeah. And also, they make Kevin go, "I love you guys," which is so- [C laughs] It's character assassination, is what it is.

C: Yeah, okay. So does Dean think he's gonna go- okay, but Dean probably thinks he's gonna go to Hell for the torture, and he probably think Sam's gonna go to Hell for the powers and the Ruby association.

G: The everything, yeah.

C: So he's like, "We can be friends and have fun torturing each other!" [both laugh]

G: "I'll go easy on you, and you'll go easy on me. It's fine! We can just play torture, yeah."

C: Yeah, yeah. "I'll just like, carve out like, half of your face. And you'll just carve out like, half of my face?" I mean, that's basically like, what the show Supernatural is already, so, let's go!

G: And I mean, you loved theater. You did Little Town or something. Our Town? You can release your acting chops by going, "Aaah!" when I carve out your face! Like, it's fine!

C: Exactly.

G: He was a tree in that production, right? [C laughing]

C: I don't know. Probably.

G: Oh, god!

C: Was he like, a freakishly tall kid even then?

G: I don't think so. He wasn't very tall.

C: He's very small in "After School Special."

G: Yeah, and he was bullied for specifically being short or something.

C: Yeah. So I guess he he wasn't a very good tree.

G: Yeah, he was just a mid tree.

-

G: We go to Chuck's house, and he is pretty much the same scene as the beginning of the episode, where he's like, sleeping and having a dream. But this time, we don't see what the fuck he's seeing. He wakes up, and he turns around, and Zachariah is there. Zachariah introduces himself as "I'm Zachariah. You may know me from your work," which is super fun. And he asks, "Did you see it?" And Chuck says, "Is it true? Is all of that really going to happen?" And Zachariah says, "Have you been wrong so far?" which is so interesting, because wasn't he wrong this episode?

C: Yeah, he was wrong about the end of this, so.

G: I don't know.

C: Well, okay, I guess it wasn't wrong. It was just he didn't write it, it doesn't necessarily mean he wrote a different thing that didn't happen. just that he missed out on this last half.

G: Well, Chuck says, "I've got to warn Sam and Dean!" And he's like, getting up, getting ready to go out. And Zachariah says, "Nope! People shouldn't know too much about their own destiny. You try, and I'll stop you." Chuck is like, "Okay, fine." And then he like, tries to go upstairs or something. And Zachariah asks, "Where are you going?" And he goes, "I'm going to kill myself." [laughs]

C: God, he's so real.

G: [laughs] He's so real. Zachariah says, "Don't be melodramatic. We'd only bring you back to life."

C: Ooh.

G: Terrifying. It's good!

C: It's a great "I'm a sicko" line.

G: Zachariah is like, a shockingly good villain so far, I think. Like, I know he was already smarmy, like, 'cause I watched the show already. But now, I'm like, "I think I have a newfound appreciation for him," especially-

C: Well, he's gonna call Mary a MILF in Season 5, so like, it doesn't last forever. [laughs] He's gonna become bad.

G: Yeah. But like, you know, like, last episode, when we tried to break down his speech, I was like, "Okay, this guy's like, cool, I think." Yeah. Well, Chuck asks, "What am I supposed to do?" And Zachariah says, "What you always do. Write."

C: Okay, I do think Zachariah's great in here. The whole time I was watching this, though, I was thinking about how I wish it was Uriel instead.

G: That's true, yeah.

C: Yeah, like, they literally did kill him off so that they could introduce Zachariah. And like, Zachariah does have a fun, fresh, new vibe, but like, I think Uriel's vibe would also be good for this. Like, he would deliver like, "We'd only bring you back to life again" in a different way, but it would also be like, chilling and good.

G: I don't know. Maybe they could have given Uriel a promotion. [laughs]

C: Yeah.

G: They literally could have given Uriel a promotion! They'd be like, "Damn! You're rebelling and shit? What's wrong with you? Here's a promotion so you stop doing that."

C: No, exactly.

-

G: So what do we think about this episode? I generally had fun watching it and talking about it.

C: Yeah, I mean, I feel you could tell that I had literally no energy and no enthusiasm until Cas showed up, [G laughs] and then suddenly, I was so invested. So yeah, I think it was fun. I think it was great that Cas showed up. All the angel stuff is interesting.

G: It is fascinating how they keep on trying to be like, "And Sam is so evil!" And then you look at Sam, and he always looks so sad. [C laughs]

C: Yeah.

G: Best Line/Worst Line.

C: I really like when Sam asks Chuck, "Does it? All rest on my shoulders?" Because, augh.  Yeah.

G: Yeah. I think for me, I will take the Casgirl route and say that I just like the whole Cas speech and finally- I mean, specifically like, when he goes, "Just so you understand... why I can't help." The whole speech is wonderful, the way he delivers it is wonderful. Specifically, the way that line is delivered was so wonderful to me. So yeah. Worst line. I just hate the entire scene that we fucking berated to hell and back.

C: Lilith?

G: No, no, no, not Lilith.

C: Oh, the fucking- the fangirl publisher.

G: Specifically, I would say that like I do not like, the line where she goes like, "Oh, I don't wanna make any smartass article making fun of my boys." And it's like, okay, well. [C laughs] Whatever you're doing here is so horrible. Shut the fuck up everyone.

C: Yeah, let's not do this, let's do a different thing. Yeah, for me, it's- I think I really disliked the publisher scene as well. I think when it start really taking a turn for the bad is when she starts talking about how like, Dean was so strong and sad and whatever. But I also have- I would also like, to vote for like, whatever. "It's gonna take like, way more than a kiss to make a deal with me" or whatever thing that Lilith says, 'cause it's like, "Well, why? And what if we did not do that and instead did a different thing that wasn't that?"

G: Okay, let's spread those sheets. What's our-

C: Well, we had a lot of misogyny complaints.

G: I would say, the misogyny is like, 3. [C: Yeah.] I would say that it is almost intrinsic to the episode.

C: Yeah, I'd say so. Just in the Lilith characterization and her being the main conflict, I'd say it's there.

G: Racism.

C: They mention Casa Erotica, so I feel like every time they mention Casa Erotica or Busty Asian Beauties, like, we should just give a point for a mention.

G: That's true. Yeah, 1. And homophobia... I don't think they're homophobic this episode.

C: Yeah, I don't think so.

G: IMDb. This is- I would believe this is a highly-rated episode. [C: Uh-huh.] "On the Head of a Pin" was 9.1, and "It's a Terrible Life" is 8.6. I would say this may be higher than “On the Head of a Pin,” [C: Huh.] just because it's a more fun episode, and it has more relevance to the bigger Supernatural story.

C: Okay.

G: So I would say this is a 9.2.

C: Okay, I think I see your point, but I feel like- I don't. I feel like it should still be below 4.16 because 4.16 is like, the one everyone tells their friends to watch, so I'll just go one below. Maybe same? I'll go 9.1.

G: It's a 9.2!

C: Nice! You did it!

G: I'm right! I'm right in all my assessments.

C: Hell yeah.

G: People are just saying like, "It plays a lot darker now because of how the story goes." I do think that's true, but I wouldn't say a plays darker. It plays just more interesting. 'Cause I do not like the whole "And Chuck was always a sicko all along," does not appeal to me. "Rob Benedict as Chuck is fantastic. He was definitely destined to play this role." [laughs] I do think that I do think that, like, the Chuck stuff, is like- he is well-acted, and he is just like, you know, comedic writer. But like, the last writer that I remember in Supernatural is like, that one that goes, "It's just a movie." And this is like, such a different vibe from that guy, but they are both like, so character-coded like, character- You know what I mean. Like, they're so writer characters, and that's real fun.

C: Yeah. Yeah. So this person says that "If someone is ever allowed to do something like this, then these people are. You could say thank you to your fans in a million ways, but this was maybe the best one to do it."

G: That's literally not true. That's a lie, they're lying to you, what's happening?

C: They're talking about how it's written good, but like, they also said that they hated you so bad like, earlier in this episode.

G: "I decided to review this episode after watching the finale of Season 14. Holy Chuck! He really is the monster at the end of this book. Was that part of the writers' plan? Guess we'll never know. LOL." [C laughs] Well, I mean, we did constantly say in this episode, "I guess we'll never know."

C: We did say that. They stole that from us. I can't believe they did that.

G: Jenna56543 from October 2019 stole our words from today.

C: Yeah. How dare they?

G: [laughs] "Supernatural writers are courageous enough to poke fun at everything: themselves, the characters, and even fans. Thank god they apologize about 'Bugs' and the ghost ships episode. [C: What?] And Supernatural fans, please stop the Wincest thing. This is just sick."

C: I mean, correct.

G: So true. Correct on the second part, but what the fuck is wrong with the ghost ship episode?

C: What's wrong with "Red Sky at Morning"?

G: You guys are so mean to Bela and me personally.

C: You hate having fun!

G: "Castiel's bond to Dean is only getting stronger. His sympathy is more prevalent. He is beginning to find ways to help the brothers without going all disobedient to higher authorities." So true!

C: Yeah.

G: I'm like, ctrl+F-ing Cas. What the hell did people say about Cas here? [C laughs] Nobody wants to talk about Cas. This is horrible! He is the best part of this episode.

C: Yeah.

G: Well, that's it for this episode of Busty Asian Beauties. Next week, we will be discussing Season 4, Episode 19: "Jump the Shark." Leave us a rating or a review wherever you get your podcasts. C: Follow us on social media! We are on Tumblr at bustyasianbeautiespod.tumblr.com. Our official tag is #BABPod, B-A-B-POD. And thanks to everyone who's donated to our Ko-Fi at ko-fi.com/bustyasianbeautiespod. And check out our merch at babpod.redbubble.com. G: You can email us any feedback, comments, or inquiries at bustyasianbeautiespod@gmail.com. See you guys next time! [both] Bye!

[guitar music]

-

G: I think this is a less lengthy episode. Is that true? [pause] Oh, no-!

[fandom-hoarder]

Caretaker!Dean in the Bunker

A Hurt/Comfort-ish Wincest Rec List Featuring Baby Brother Sammy and Domestic Winchesters

💜 My Only Home by non_tiembo_mala

Rating: Explicit | Words: 12819 | No Warnings Apply

Summary: Dean's been gone a while, running wild with a twisted soul and black eyes. When Sam finally brings him back, Dean realizes his little brother hasn't been doing well in his absence, and he has more important things to worry about than what he did as a demon.

Additional Tags: Wincest - Freeform, first time in a long time, Post-Episode: s10e03 Soul Survivor, Pre-series and Early Series Flashbacks, Eating Disorders, Thoughts of Self-harm, Pining, Angst, Masturbation, Come Eating, Hurt/Comfort, Bottom Sam, Anal Sex, Felching, Snowballing

My Note: flashbacks to Sam pining for Dean as a teen, but no underage sex with a partner

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💜 Safe, Sane, and Consentual by TooOldToCare8353

Rating: Explicit | Words: 2808 | Chose Not to Warn

Summary: Fixing the relationship, the Winchester way. Not necessarily the right way to get there, but it works for them.

Additional Tags: BDSM, Breathplay, MOL Dungeon, Dom Dean Winchester, Sub Sam Winchester, Manacles, Orgasm Delay/Denial, Dubious Consent

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💜 Dean does Not like a sick Sammy... but he loves her all the same. By Magnoliachild

Rating: Mature | Words: 3941 | No Warnings Apply

Summary: They get to town for a hunt, but the day after they get there, Dean notices Sammy napping...face down on a motel table.... in the middle of the afternoon.............. FUCK.

Sammy is sick. Dean doesn't like it when Sammy is sick, but sue him for liking how nice he can be when she is...

Additional Tags: Bathing/Washing, Sick Sam Winchester, Caring Dean Winchester, Fluff, Dean Winchester Takes Care of Sam Winchester, Established Relationship, Alternate Universe - Gender Changes, Always Female Sam Winchester, Men of Letters Bunker (Supernatural)

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💜 lullabies by chiliscale

Rating: Explicit | Words: 970 | No Warnings Apply

Summary: Sam´s staying up late, Dean doesn´t care for that shit.

Additional Tags: Men of Letters Bunker (Supernatural), Dean taking care of Sam, Domestic Fluff

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💜 Steady by non_tiembo_mala

Rating: Teen+ | Words: 1441 | No Warnings Apply

Summary: Sam has an attack. Dean works him through it.Set somewhere in S11 because I can't stop thinking about strong, beautiful Sammy being all fucked up because of friggin' Lucifer.

Additional Tags: Wincest - Freeform, Nightmares, Anxiety, Panic Attacks, Emotional Hurt/Comfort, Sleepy Cuddles

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💜 Getting Down And Out by verucasalt123

Rating: Teen+ | Words: 2299 | No Warnings Apply

Summary: “Hey, Sam, take a breath, we got all the time in the world”, Dean tells him, which of course isn’t true, is never true, but Sam needs to relax if he’s going to start using complete sentences.

Additional Tags: Sibling Incest, Kissing, Cooking, Witches, Episode: s10e12 About A Boy, Childhood Memories, John Winchester's A+ Parenting, Child Neglect, Food Issues, Song: Shake It Off (Taylor Swift), Established Dean Winchester/Sam Winchester, Community: spn_j2_xmas

Podfic by me Here

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💜 The Only Thing by non_tiembo_mala

Rating: Teen+ | Words: 1242 | No Warnings Apply

Summary: Sam gets mind-fucked and tortured by a British bitch who somehow manages to walk away from it all in one piece.

But he also gets back the brother he thought was dead, and Dean will always be enough.

Additional Tags: Wincest - Freeform, Episode Tag: S12E02, Post-Episode: s12e02 Mamma Mia, Emotional Hurt/Comfort, bed sharing, Cuddles

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💜 A Blind Fool's Luck by hellhoundsprey

Rating: Explicit | Words:3561 | No Warnings Apply

Summary: [summary is a really long prompt, so I'm giving my own here] Sam finds out he's really an omega when Rowena offers to set him back to rights. He doesn't tell Dean, but Dean can tell right away when Sam starts a heat; Dean's held guilt over not stopping John from altering Sam's body as a kid.

Additional Tags: Alpha/Beta/Omega Dynamics, Non-Consensual Body Modification, Traumatized Sam Winchester, Omega Sam Winchester, Bottom Sam Winchester, Alpha Dean Winchester, Top Dean Winchester, Soulmates, Unresolved Sexual Tension, Barebacking, Hurt/Comfort, Men of Letters Bunker (Supernatural)

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💜 Every Night by non_tiembo_mala

Rating: Mature | Words: 1585 | No Warnings Apply

Summary: Sam is struggling with nightmares after Dean rescues him from the Cage. He's trying not to worry Dean about it but nothing slips past his big brother.

Additional Tags: Season/Series 11, Wincest - Freeform, Cuddles, Emotional Hurt/Comfort, Brothers, Nightmares, Post-Cage, Sleepy Boys, Episode: s11e10 The Devil in the Details, Coda

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💜 One Good Birthday by brokenlittleboy

Rating: Teen+ | Words: 3773 | No Warnings Apply

Summary: This year, nothing bad happens on Sam's birthday. Sam's on edge, waiting for that shoe to drop. Dean tries to give him one good birthday, and they both realize something along the way.

Additional Tags: Birthday Fluff, Men of Letters Bunker (Supernatural), Season/Series 15, First Kiss, Sleepy Cuddles, First Dates, Emotional Hurt/Comfort, Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder - PTSD, Sam Has Birthday Trauma, Fix-It

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Honorable Mentions 💚

💚 It's A Love Story by non_tiembo_mala

Rating: Teen+ | Words:1569 | No Warnings Apply

Summary: Brother cuddles, confessions, and sweet banter after the boys get back to the bunker.

Additional Tags: Wincest - Freeform, Cuddles, Hurt/Comfort, Spoilers, Episode: s11e17 Red Meat, Coda, Soulmates, Dean and Sam are Romeo and Juliet

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💚 only this and nothing more by wincestgoddess

Rating: Not Rated | Words: 1611 | No Warnings Apply

Summary: Dean gifts Sam souvenirs. It's no big deal, except that it is.

Except when they're more than just souvenirs.

Additional Tags: Men of Letters Bunker (Supernatural), Romantic Fluff, Hurt/Comfort, lovestruck Sam Winchester, lovestruck Dean Winchester, Soulmates, Brief mention of sexual assault

[augustonly]

so I want to talk about samdean & sadism (reluctant sadism?) & hurt/comfort but I’m putting it below the cut in case it’s triggering for anyone!

based off of my previous post about sam realizing dean has a major caretaking kink and then being manipulative and weird and playing into, I’ve been thinking that at some point faking or exaggerating injuries/nightmares just isn’t enough for sam anymore and he realizes he needs to be actually sick or hurt or scared and then comforted by dean.

I don’t think sam would actually having an open conversation with dean about this out of the blue, but I can see him being a little too reckless on a hunt and dean calling him on it. dean completely freaks out, and sam tries to explain. the scene I keep picturing is sam explaining that the only time he actually feels safe is when dean is taking care of him, and dean absolutely caving because sam - sammy, his baby brother - admitting to needing him? yeah.

“I make you feel safe?” 

“You’re the only thing that makes me feel safe.”

I don’t know if it’s sam or dean that brings it up, but they come to the agreement that dean will cut sam - just a little bit, just enough - because it’s better than sam doing stupid shit on hunts or getting into other dangerous situations.

“You come to me when you need this, you understand? You don’t throw a fucking hunt, Sam. You don’t go to anyone else, either. You come to me.”

I also don’t know if I view this as genuine wincest or weirdcest-with-extra-weird, I can see it going both ways. maybe it’s sexual for dean, but non-sexual for sam, and they also have to grapple with the concept of oh, so we’re both fucked up, but a little bit differently.

“You’re hard.”

“Thanks for the update on my own dick, Sam.”

“I could -”

“No. Just want to take care of you.”

my last thought on this (for now) is that, when he’s finished hurting sam, dean is absolutely obsessive with his aftercare. he disinfects each cut, wincing at the burn right along with sam, bandages him and then kisses over each bandage. he calls him sammy and baby and sweetheart and kiddo. when sam gets up to sleep in his own bed, dean is just like oh, no, nope, not happening.

“You’re sleeping in my bed, baby. C’mon, lay back down with me.”

[rowancoms]

I know that this isn’t the time to clown but it also is and here’s why this shitty sounding prequel could, number one, be good— and number two, lead to destiel saga part two!! Because we all want to talk about it and I KNOW WE DO!!

Reason number one!!

Dean, a forty year old (and as of now dead) man that knows only bits and pieces of what truly happened with his parents is narrating an ENTIRE story of how his parents fell in love?? And apparently saved the world?? What the fuck.

Honestly I don’t think we’re paying much attention to this little detail?? Like guys?? It’s not JENSEN ACKLES narrating the story of John and Mary Winchester, it’s DEAN WINCHESTER narrating the story of his PARENTS. How is it going to happen?? Are we going to see Dean?? Are we going to get any background info on WHY Dean is narrating the story?? And, hey isn’t Dean in heaven with his little brother? Couldn’t he be randomly telling all of this shit to little Sammy? The answer to that question is a big no, because

Jared Padalecki has nothing to do with the show.

This is big, guys. This is extremely, EXTRAVAGANTLY big. This means that in Jensen’s eyes, Sam GOT his ending. Sam got his ending in Jared’s eyes, too, which would all be fine and dandy, except, as we all know, Jensen was never really, truly happy with Dean’s “ending”, was he? And I know, you’re probably thinking, hey, isn’t this about John and Mary? And how those shitbags fell in love?? We don’t care about that??? And, on the surface, yes, that generalization of it sounds like absolute hot garbage. It sounds absolutely terrible.

But we have to go DEEPER than John and Mary to actually see how this could have potential, guys, so bare with me on this one, okay? Let’s go deeper than Jensen, and Daneel, and the shit going on with Jared, and all of that crap that’s brewing on the first layer. I’ll get into that in a second, but first,

Where is Misha in all of this?

We all saw Misha’s tweet.

You know, this one. And I’m just saying, JUST SAYING that Misha didn’t HAVE to write ANYTHING about Cas in that tweet. I’m not saying that Misha knows what’s up, of course, but I’m also totally completely saying that Misha knows what’s up. We’ve all seen what’s going on with JARED at the moment, and it’s not pretty, but unlike Jared, Misha didn’t say ANYTHING that even lead us to BELIEVE that he was, in any way, surprised. And, hey, didn’t I ask before about Dean’s knowledge of all of this in the first place??? Misha not only tweeted about Cas being in the show— even if it was a joke, or dare I say meant to be played off as one—but he was ODDLY specific about that time traveling thing. And, as far as we know, Cas is out of the empty and working on heaven, right?? You know who just HAPPENS to be in heaven, and is also a confirmed character?? Do I even need to say it???

It’s Dean, guys.

Am I painting a picture?

No? Well,

Let’s think about this in terms of the canon Supernatural universe and what we know so far.

What do we know about all of this John and Mary bullcrap?

Here’s the thing: we know almost just as much as Dean does, and Dean is the narrator of the story. So why in the ever loving WORLD would Jensen even THINK to make an entire series about all of the shit we’ve already seen? Obviously, Dean is PROBABLY going to be finding out more and more about his parents as we go along with the story, right?

And a very big, very unavoidable detail about Dean’s parents is that they were CANONICALLY forced together by fucking ANGELS. They’re not going to make a prequel of supernatural without SUPERNATURAL, and leaving out the Angel bit in the show would be not only stupid, for one thing, but it would also create a very gaping wormhole in the original timeline, so the writers are going to have to be really careful if they don’t want to undo the seams of the entirety of the supernatural universe as it stands.

I might sound crazy, okay, but I truly and honestly believe that Jensen knows what he’s doing. Dean didn’t have to be a part of this story whatsoever, but he is, and that counts for something, doesn’t it? Nobody said that this was going to be a story glorifying John, or Mary, or anybody. This idea has potential, a whole lot of it, and I’m actually interested to see where it goes. We’re not rolling with Kripke anymore. We’re not rolling with Dabb, or Buckleming, or even Jared, who is as of right now starting an entire riot on Twitter like a five year old. We’re not rolling with any of those other idiots that spend their time off writing wincest fics in their basement. We’re rolling with Jensen, and Daneel, and the people that they TRUST to tell the story of John and Mary, and the people that they TRUST to carry Dean’s character. We should trust them too, shouldn’t we????

[cowboyified]

"They think we're in love" for wincest please

At a beachside resort in Florida there are disembodied knives dancing around the kitchen, second degree burns from boiling soups tipped over hands nowhere near handles and hypothermic staff found in the walk-in after hours. 

They trudge in with grubby duffels over their shoulders and stand out amongst brightly coloured beach-goers with mini-wheeled suitcases. When the concierge says you must be here for the couples retreat Sam says yes and Dean says no.

Sam is taller and louder and generally more domineering when he wants to be, so Dean covers his response with a cough and plans a vicious assault on his brother for when no one will be able to hear him cry for help. The woman at the desk is giving Dean flighty little looks and Sam is smiling bright like he’s won something. 

Dean steps back, wholly unequipped to deal with whatever is going on here, flips through the magazines next to the complimentary cucumber and watermelon sparkling water and pretends he can’t hear her jovially listing off the weekend’s planned activities. Dean readjusts his bag and thumbs through Men’s Health in attempt to quash whatever disastrous impression he’s giving off to make her assume he and Sam are fucking.

Which they are. 

But that’s not the point.

Sam had kissed him three months ago like he’d had the terminal desire to for a lifetime. Short and fast and crushing and Dean hadn’t pried for the how-longs because it didn’t matter when a week later his hands were down Sam’s pants and Sam was burying his face into Dean’s jugular making unholy little noises into his skin. 

Sam didn’t need to go parade it around. He prays his brother is checking them in under different surnames.

Sam returns to him with their room key. He looks like he’s about to slide an arm over Dean’s shoulders for show but thinks better of it when Dean raises his metaphorical hackles and threatens to bite. Sam spreads his hands in surrender, the key dangling from his fingers, Dean reads the number and heads towards the elevator with Sam on his heels. 

He jabs the number five and then the close-door button repeatedly so Sam has to Lara Croft his huge body between the gap to make it in time. It makes Dean laugh and dislodges some of his anger.

The ride up is awkward and Dean clicks his tongue, rolls back and forth on his heels, thinks about what could have been. “If I wasn’t so pissed we could have been making out right now, just so you know.” 

Sam actually looks pained. “Cruel, Dean.” 

The bell chimes and the doors open onto a wide carpeted hallway. Their door is at the end because of course it is. 

The room is stupid. Grossly lavish. It’s so obviously a couple’s suite; there are pink rose petals scattered on the bed and an ensuite separated by a wall with built in shutters.

On the pros side, the television is half the size of the wall and they’ve got an awesome view of the long strip of beach through the floor to ceiling window. There’s also a mirror above the bed which Dean can’t think about right now, he’s trying to be angry.

“Cool, you’ll have a nice dying view for when I murder you,” Dean says gesturing towards the window while trying to push down the urge to fall face first onto the hundred thread count bedsheets.

“I didn’t expect it to be this fancy,” Sam says, snooping around in the bar fridge. “And it’s not like I planned it either. It’s just less suspicious this way.”

“They think we’re in love.” Dean says, unable to look directly at the heart-shaped complimentary soaps.

Sam laughs like it’s the funniest joke he’s ever heard. Fucking lunacy; Sam stands and says, “I am in love with you, Dean.” 

He flounders. 

It’s not something that should stump him this bad. Of course Sam loves him, he’s told him that before - since he was old enough to get his mouth to sound out the words. With his actions, more recently, the saving-his-life kind and the sucking-his-dick kind. 

It is in desperate need of redefining, the word love. The way he feels for his brother is too big to fit within its four letters. It isn’t conventional romantic love and it isn’t brotherly love. There is no word for this. Love feels too trivial. 

Dean walks over to his brother, jabs a finger hard to his sternum. “You better start thinking about how you plan to make it up to me then, because I sure as shit ain’t doing the couples beachside yoga and massage.” 

Sam grabs his finger so he can’t get away, leans in to kiss him once. “They have a twenty-four-hour all you can eat buffet.” 

And all is forgiven.

[ficforthought]

On being SO DONE with M*sha, a rant a decade in the making!

After giving this some thought I'm going to go ahead and give my opinion on Misha and yesterday’s situation in public for the first time ever. I was going to just post on Twitter but since this has been 12 years in the making I have exceeded the number of tweets I can put in one thread! There’s A LOT in here, so my summary is also long. I'm aware that I will lose followers over this, I'm not looking to offend anyone but it will inevitably happen. I wish anyone leaving all the best as fellow human beings.

TL;DR - having kept quiet for so long I’ve finally reached my limit and it’s all come bubbling out. I’ve never been a fan of Misha, I’ve been ambivalent for the most part, but have never criticised him in any hateful way, that's not who I am, but after all these years of putting up with his bullshit, attention seeking and troublemaking I am DONE. Deleting his tweet containing the word Wincest and replacing it with an APOLOGY just to pander to his Minions and save face is the straw that broke the camel's back. He has consistently pushed his ship on not only fans but on other actors (despite Jensen's discomfort, and him having repeatedly made his feelings known on it), he has stood by while his Minions/Hellers have harassed, victimised, doxxed and sent death threats to people based on their FICTIONAL ships. He has pandered to their gatekeeping, constantly demanded attention in obvious and not so obvious ways, and to the best of my knowledge never criticised their actions even though he's aware of it in a very real way. Some of his Minions have now taken their shit into The Boys fandom and created negativity for Jensen before the guy has even got a foot through the set door, and how is that supporting one half of your ship?

Misha has claimed to be a victim of targeted harassment from Wincest/brother fans (not only shippers) yet his fans have said and done the most despicable things on his watch, all in the name of what he must think is entertainment, or even his idea of a ‘joke’.

Any respect I had for the man based on his humanitarian work has gone because I can only take so much hypocrisy. He and his pandering because of a desperate attempt to be woke and wholly inclusive (which is actually impossible, no matter how good intentions are) are beyond pathetic. Whilst I have never seen why people think he’s so great I have friends IRL and online who genuinely adore the man, yet they have been shocked and upset by his contempt for half of the fandom that made him somewhat famous. It's disgusting and I'm not scrolling by any more. Misha, I hope to never see you on anything J2 related in future because none of us need that kind of negativity, *especially* not J2. Be gone, foul fiend!

OK, so to the too long part. Please be aware that these are my opinions as a fan of the show, of Sam and Dean, and J2, not only as a shipper. I can separate canon and fanon, and can view canon from a gen or shippy PoV. Whether you agree or disagree with my opinion let me be clear that I do not condone constant bashing and hate of a person or character so this isn’t the start of a regular thing for me. It's possible to have an opinion and not show the same vitriol that has been following this man around for years, and that’s what I’m doing. I've not posted this to prompt more negativity, it's simply to get it off my chest and make it clear how I feel. I stand by my philosophy of ship who you want to ship, enjoy it, but don't force it on other people and don't be a dick about it…hmm, that kinda sounds like familiar behaviour, though, does it not?!

I have ABSOLUTELY NO ISSUE with other people liking Misha, Cas or Destiel when it’s for the love of the characters and the ship. What I *do* have an issue with is people who are the true definition of a Heller. I don’t see that as a generic term, don't be ignorant and think I do because I know the difference between actual ship fans and the crazies, both ships have ‘em and I want no part of either of their venom. If you are reading this and class yourself as a Heller then you are part of the problem so run along and as you are all so fond of saying, 'get help' and take your bestie king with you.

I’m stating my opinion in what I feel is the most mature way I can, because unlike many people on SM, I am an adult and can act accordingly, with forethought and without resorting to temper tantrums and bullying of other people to get my point across. I am able to tell the difference between reality and fiction, I don't tar everyone with the same shipper brush and I don't expect everyone to agree with my opinion, but as we know opinions are like arseholes, we all have them and sometimes they stink. Unlike some, for the most part in life (online and offline) I *do* stand by what I say and don’t backtrack or delete things to appease the masses. I have spent a lot of time writing this out to be as clear as possible without being intentionally hateful. Bear with me jumping between actor and character where relevant, at this point they're conjoined. I will say this before I go any further, it doesn’t end well for Misha, I don’t mince my words and if you don’t like seeing facts and opinions laid out, this isn't the post for you.

I’ll say right off the bat what most of you have surmised - I’ve never held Misha (or Cas) in high esteem but I have never *hated* on him. I have shared mild criticism of his actions and opinions on Cas over the years but never, I feel, in any way that has made me feel I have something to apologise for. I have said several times I've been unhappy about Misha crashing con panels, taking attention away from J2 when at those cons *most* people paid their hard earned money to see the STARS of the show they love, first and foremost, and anyone else is a very nice bonus. The odd appearance here and there crashing a panel is fine (and Misha isn’t the first or last person to do it), maybe take up a few minutes then leave, but when someone commandeers an entire panel, that's just not on. It's not only selfish, rude and attention seeking but also disrespectful to other actors, fans and to the organisers who work hard to make sure everything ties in to give us the best con experience we can have. Everyone gets their turn on stage, there's no need to try and hog any more of the limelight, Veruca Salt style. Oh, and if you’re reading this and not getting that reference, (a) you shouldn’t be on my blog because you’re far too young, (b) look it up, and if you still don’t get what I’m saying… well then please refer to point (a). Thank you, kindly!

There was a time in Kripke's era where Cas was - I feel - intentionally used as a pawn by the writers to divert *canon* from the ‘questionable’ relationship between Sam and Dean, i.e. Wincest focus. Prior to that people (other fans) lightened up and just accepted the fact that Wincest had been there since day one in terms of the writing of the show and the fandom. All the cast and crew knew - J2, Kripke and JDM in particular - and made light of it, never judging, never shaming and often encouraging it because they understand it’s a fun part of fandom. Wincest was present enough to be part of the not so subtle subtext, as I said people just accepted it. Kink tomato was alive and well, so was ‘don’t like, don’t read’ and we all just scrolled over things we didn’t like without turning everything into a personal vendetta and excuse for bullying others who didn’t share our views. When the angels came into the plot I think most of us Wincest fans gave the Dean/Cas innuendos the small laugh they deserved and then turned back to the focus of the show which was the brothers, as it had always been intended. Misha, however, milked those moments as much as possible which was amusing at the start but got old *very* quickly, not just for fans (shippers and non shippers alike), but for other actors, in particular Jensen who is on record MULTIPLE times showing his dislike for Destiel. He told people outright that's not how he was playing the relationship between the two characters and CATEGORICALLY said "Destiel doesn't exist" but did it end there? No, it did not because neither fans or Misha let it go, in fact Misha only pushed more, goaded fans into flogging the same dead horse as much as possible. He’s never stopped, not even when there was so much discord in the fandom, a huge wedge was driven into it because of ships, which IMO he heavily contributed to.

Fast forward to over a decade later (a decade, seriously man, let it fucking go!) he didn’t even stop when Destiel did partially go canon. I have never doubted that Cas loved Dean (Sam, too) because in SPN lore angels are made to love, even rebellious ones. I, along with many others, liked that about Cas because who doesn't love a rebel, especially one rebelling for very good reasons, and because of those two wonderful men? Sam and Dean allowed him to see beyond what he'd been brainwashed to believe his entire existence. The fact is that although the nature of that love changed for Cas, it never did for Dean and was CANONICALLY UNREQUITED because Dean was incapable of loving anyone else as much as he loved Sam. All that mattered to Dean, even when he saw other characters as "family" was still Sam…ALWAYS Sam, every step of the way. Again for those who have too much Misha shaped wax in their ears, that’s canon. Whether people choose to see that love platonically or romantically is up to them, soulmates don't always have to be romantic, either way, brotherly love won out above all else on the show. No amount of Misha screaming ‘hey look, Destiel!’ changed that, but it sure didn’t stop him trying, did it?

So now that the obvious has been stated, here's something else we all know - never once in all of the years on the show did Misha drop rallying of the troops to his precious, ego stroking ship. Never once (that I am aware of) has he called out his Minions and Hellers on their continued harassment of everyone involved in the show and other fans despite the fact that they have bullied, victimised and wished bodily harm, rape and death on people who don't see their ship and because didn't get the ending to the story that they wanted. Not once has Misha shown any remorse for the trauma his "fans" have caused, and I’m taking REAL trauma, here, not the kind Twitter stans see as ‘triggering’ - people have been driven to close SM accounts, attempted, and in some cases succeeded in taking their own lives. These Minions have openly mocked Jared’s struggles with depression and anxiety, and Misha - who claims to be friends with J2 and be supportive of them in every way  - has stood by and let it all play out, knowing full well some of the goings on, if not the full extent of how toxic these people are. We know he sees things being said online, and I have absolutely no doubt he spends time online searching his name for things that are relevant in some way to him in an effort to insert himself into a current conversation, or even start one so that attention is on him. Gotta stay relevant, somehow, right, Mish?

He has actively encouraged bullying by his actions of enabling the behaviours above, both by the flogging of the aforementioned dead horse, AND by not objecting to unacceptable behaviours. Remember when Minions and Hellers were slating J2, particularly Jared, for not posting on SM about BLM and other topics? Yeah, he didn’t ask them to stop doing that, either, even when he was tagged in things along the lines of ‘If Misha can post why can’t J2?’ etc. There have been some token protests, con vids I've seen have show his 'objections' which IMO have been done in a very tongue in cheek way, meaning that those people who needed to be pulled aside and told to change their ways just carried on, because their evil overlord didn’t explicitly explain it in terms a three year old could understand that bullying and forcing your opinion on others is WRONG. Not all of his cult are young and impressionable, not by a long shot, but many of the more vocal and vitriolic ones are.

As a father himself I wonder what Misha would do if he found out that his kids were behaving in ways his Minions are? I’m aware they’re young, but kids are cruel and bullying doesn’t just happen online. Even at whatever age they are, would he laugh it off the way he appears to have done with all of this fandom toxicity? Not bloody likely! I wonder if he’s as desperate to gain the approval of his family, friends and colleagues as he appears to be for that of his Minions/Hellers? I would certainly hope so, but that question can only be answered by Misha, himself, and I can and will not presume to speak on someone else's behalf on things in their personal life. For the record I would never presume I know what J2's answers would be on anything, however I do feel that after 15 years I have an accurate gauge on what kind of people they are so would be confident that any opinion I had on a matter aligns with their morals and ethics. As much as J2 have shared of themselves with us - willingly and under no pressure to do so, I might add - we don't *know* them, but we know enough to have an informed opinion. I can’t say the same for Misha because based on the behaviour he’s repeatedly displayed, things I've heard about from other fans as well as people I know IRL who have had direct dealings with him through cons or GISH (including some very actively in the early days when it was GISHWHES) he just hasn’t seemed like a person I wanted to follow on SM. I’ve never watched any of his solo panels, though I have watched ones with both or one of the J's, mostly being left irritated because of his behaviour. Watching the J’s put up with that shit is painful, and it’s a testament to how good they are as actors that they managed to hide at least some of their disdain for as long as they did. Microexpressions give them away, particularly Jensen, and they certainly have faces I have spent many years watching closely. Beautiful faces to go with beautiful souls, both of them! <3

I have precisely ZERO interest in Destiel as a ship, very little interest in Cas as a character anymore (though I did like him in the early days,and his relationship with Jack in late seasons) so I have absolutely no reason or desire to follow anything Misha does. That said, I've obviously been peripherally aware of some things he's been involved in because of friends, from things I’ve seen on SM and general fandom stuff. Despite the things I've already mentioned about his behaviour, up until now I have been able to maintain a level of respect for him as a person because of the humanitarian and charity work he's done. He seems like someone who really does want to change the world for the better and I am in full support of that fact, so much so that I have supported TWO campaigns relating to him. I bought one of the Super Good t-shirts for the campaign he did with Michael Sheen (a true angel!), the SPN/Good Omens x-over to help homeless charities, and I chose the design with text only and not artwork of Michael and Misha on, basically because I didn’t want to be wearing something with Misha’s face on it and I make absolutely no apology for that, whatsoever. I also bought Alex's #TheEndHasNoEnd shirt, which some of the profits went to Random Acts who do great work, so again, despite not liking Misha I still willingly contributed for a cause bigger than me, and to support Alex, who I absolutely ADORE. I'm aware that Stands aren't popular with some of the fandom, however since most of the cast of SPN are happily affiliated with them then I don't feel it's my place to either judge, or to discuss topics I know next to nothing about. But I digress, as a decent human being I have shown support tangentially to a man who I don't care for out of respect for the work he does outside the fandom. Telling you this isn’t to paint myself in a good light - I don’t need your approval, I’m a big girl, unlike some I don’t need constant validation! - only to provide background on how I’ve actively *not* hated on Misha.

Now though, any respect I had for him has come to an abrupt end, the events of the past 24 hours has seen to that. Whilst I have been annoyed at his behaviour in regards to shipping, I don't feel it's ever gone this far, or at least not that I've seen first hand. This man has, IMO, contributed to so much toxicity in the fandom by way of things I've mentioned before, he's claimed - without actually saying the words - that Wincest fans weren't interested in him as a character when he came onto the show, and hasn’t felt included because of the fans’ love of the brothers. Um, hate to break it to you, love, but when you come onto an established show that is about two people, and you’re a *guest star* you can’t expect everyone to love you. Some characters we as individuals do fall in love with straight away (Bobby, Charlie, Crowley and Rowena are good examples for me), it takes time to establish a dynamic, so if that’s how he felt then it was incredibly naive of him as an actor to expect instant acceptance from anyone. Also, why wait until after the show finished to bring it up AGAIN … oh wait, yeah, that would be to step back into the limelight in a way intended to garner sympathy from Minions and INTENTIONALLY piss off bro fans and Wincest shippers alike? How fucking self centred, desperate and disrespectful do you have to be to shit all over the finale of a show that for the most part accepted you and kept you in paid work for 12 years? Well, Misha Collins levels of all of those things, obviously.  

So, on the topics of self centred, desperate to stay relevant, attention seeking and being oh so needy, the tweet yesterday from Amazon mentioned Castiel. He wasn’t tagged in it, so I refer to my earlier comment about searching online, because how else would he have possibly seen that? It’s possible someone sent it to him, I appreciate that, but if we go off past behaviour it’s not any stretch at all to believe that didn’t happen. So, once again, having seen the tweet he took it upon himself to - oh so predictably - turn it into something relating to Destiel. When I saw it I immediately rolled my eyes and thought ‘here we go again’, but then also had a little smile because I really liked the fact that he explicitly mentioned Wincest, therefore seeming to accept that his poor old dead horse wasn’t the only one in the race. I actually mentally tipped my hat to him then because it appeared that he’s matured enough to acknowledge by name the ship that predates his inclusion on the show. Great, I thought, this is a positive thing in a sea of negativity surrounding the man and his sunken ship, because what followed was Wincest trending in the US (it may also have been other countries as well but I had to sleep!) … largely due to the fact that Hellers were responding to it, calling him out on mentioning the dreaded ‘W’ word. I’ll repeat that because it’s been a rare occurrence up to that point… the Minions were actually disappointed with their overlord for mentioning another ship. We all know what they think of it and I for one, don’t give a flying fuck about their opionion. Ship and let ship, it’s all fun (or meant to be) so we have different tastes, that’s life kiddiwinks, deal with it. I mean, you really don’t have much of an example set for you when your king has proven several times over to be one of the biggest obnoxious brats out there, but just give it a try for your own sakes, yeah? Awesome, good on you, besties!

An unexpected development - to my joy and that of other Wincest shippers - them doing that got the topic trending, only *kept* trending by the fact that were all coming online asking why it was trending. Wincest shippers barely lifted a finger, we just flooded each other’s timelines with lovely content and basked in the Hellers - and Misha - shooting themselves in the foot, which was awesome. But did the vitriol stop? No. Did he get the attention he so clearly craves? Yes. Was it in the way he wanted? Fuck no, so poor, emotionally wounded baby backtracked after seeing that his name was trending alongside Wincest because that’s *so* not what someone narcissistic to do it in the first place, wanted.

Now here’s where I could easily have just moved on with an unusually fond chuckle, giving him an ironic pat on the back and a ‘thanks, Misha’ for being the one to instigate hours of fun, but once again his despicable behaviour made that impossible. It’s been more than obvious for many years that he cares more about what his fans think than anything else to do with the show and the fandom in a larger sense, but to delete the tweet and APOLOGISE for daring to be so insensitive to the snowflakes’ delicate sensibilities for mentioning Wincest in the first place was absolutely disgusting. Stating , “I used a term that I had never really given any thought to other than, "that's a thing?! Yuck." is not only complete and utter bullshit, it’s pandering of the highest order.  

We all know he has referred to Wincest on multiple occasions, so to say he hadn’t thought about is a flat out lie, which IMO is an insult to everyone, not just Wincest shippers. Does the man have no self respect at all, why would you contradict yourself in the face of such overwhelming evidence? Instead of either ignoring all the people calling him out, or addressing it with another tweet saying ‘yeah, that happened’ or something similar he chose, I repeat, CHOSE the route of claiming he didn’t realise he was being offensive to people who felt ‘triggered’ by him using the word Wincest. He basically shat all over an entire ship and large sector of the fandom in an attempt to appease his own fan base which consists of a lot of children (or those that act like children) who have no idea what RL is like.

Once again, he’s reinforced the idea that if you shout loud enough at someone just because you don’t like something they said, they will back down and apologise for something even when there’s nothing to apologise for. If he wants to be such a role model then he could easily have pointed out that a fictional ship doesn’t condone RL incest, any ACTUAL trauma people have suffered because of RL situations, and made an effort to make sure people understand that. He COULD have used it as an opportunity to do some good in the fandom by encouraging people to build bridges, to accept that people are entitled to their beliefs and that sometimes we see things differently but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t treat others with BASIC HUMAN DECENCY because of it. Instead he YET AGAIN chose to show that he cares more about what Minions think of him, keeping them onside to constantly stroke his unbelievably fragile ego in everything he does.

It is my understanding that Misha is big on (or claims to be big on) putting positive energy out into the world, treating people with respect, helping others and accepting people for who they are, not who you want them to be… all this after YEARS of consistently practising what he preaches only when it suits him. He sends out a message that it’s perfectly OK to bully, to spread hate, to draw attention to yourself at the cost of others, to throw colleagues and friends under the bus and at the same time use them to further your own agenda and get hits for your YouTube channel. Is this really the legacy he wants to leave? Is this an environment he wants his own kids to grow up in as well as future generations? Is this what he thinks is a valuable contribution as a human being? JFC, the arrogance, hypocrisy and the need for constant validation this man exhibits is nothing short of cringeworthy… actually it’s beyond that. It’s deplorable behaviour, it’s not new, and he will continue to act like this for as long as he’s being enabled and this harmful cycle needs to end.

I have friends IRL and online who are (now, possibly, were) big Misha fans, who have supported him from either the beginning of his run on the show, or since they started watching, and this is how he repays this behaviour? He’s willfully alienating decent people (including multishippers) all to make himself look good by being seen to do everything he can not to offend people. Spoiler alert, you DID offend people, you continue to do so time and again and we’ve had enough. I can’t imagine how exhausting it must be to be such a perpetual people pleaser, but let me say it’s not doing you any favours in any way, shape or form.

Misha, you are *not* a role model, you’re *not* someone to look up to when you can't live up to the ideals you preach. You’re spitting in the face of people who have supported you even after some questionable things in the past, who gave you the benefit of the doubt because we’re all human and we all make mistakes. The key to growing as a person is not to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over, understanding *why* what you said and/or did was a mistake and making a concerted effort to make changes. I don’t ever see you doing that, you will continue down this path of only caring about Minions under the guise of caring for people in general. You are transparent, you are sad and despite the fact I’ve never particularly liked you, I didn’t speak up because I didn’t want to get involved in the drama. Well now I have spoken up and I’m saying you’re a disgrace, you have no respect for other people and nobody is fooled anymore. If it hadn’t been this tweet it would have been something else, but I for one am glad it happened so soon after the show ended so we can finally be rid of the limpet-like behaviour. It’s over, let it go for the sake of what dignity you might have left, for the sake of your family and friends and for the sake of anyone who isn’t capable of seeing through your ‘it’s a joke’ mentality.

You have been weighed, you have been measured and you have been found wanting. Fuck you and the horse you rode in on, Misha.

For anyone who made it to the end of my ramble, thank you. This has been a cathartic exercise and I’m drawing a line under it now, I don’t think I could possibly make my thoughts any clearer. I urge you not to get caught up in any petty squabbles with his Minions, let’s celebrate J2 and other cast and crew members who have shown us all respect and who I am proud to call part of the SPN family. There’s always one member of the family who needs to be frozen out for the good of everyone else.

[nancylou444]

I just looked at that post with this Destiheller, who has massive problems with Wincest shippers. And my jaw honestly hit the floor at the whole mortal combat sibling fight stuff. "You weren't BULLIED enough!" Are you actually fucking kidding me?! Like the galls of this post! First of all, I actually have siblings myself - and am a big Wincest shipper. But hey, newsflash, lovedwinchesters, there is something called FICTION! Not even the whole fanon vs canon debate. Just because somebody ships two completely fictious brothers, who happened to have insane chemistry both before and behind the camera thanks to the clearly observable friendship of their two actors, doesn't mean they condone this in real life!

Honestly the invitation to basically bully Wincest shippers is what takes the cake for me! And then they have the audacity to claim that we are worse. Honestly I am somehow not surprised that we sometimes use gifs of violence to vent our frustration, because honestly, this behaviour is despicable as heck. Like sure, we may rage and fume at this behaviour and often talk about how these idiots need to get their internet priviledges removed, but at least we don't go into their IMs or ask box to go and be like you are gross for shipping Destiel. Heck, I have multiple roleplay partners, who are massive Destiel and some also Misha Collins fans, but none of them has ever attacked me for shipping Wincest. And they know I ship that as I don't really hide it.

I am sorry that this is rambly and venty, but I honestly am seeing red here. The invitation for bullying hits extra hard as those bitches know nothing of someone's past. That post is - I am not shitting - triggering me as I was a victim of bullying/exclusion in my class, so to see this blog advocate for bullying someone over a ship - a fucking SHIP! - has me lose my brain in anger here. Like I am sorry, but are you actually fucking kidding me?! You absolute cunt!

Sorry for this choice of language. Normally I am way, way more chill, but this is one of the rare moments where I am not holding back my rage and frustration. Because inviting someone to bully someone else over fiction is so ridiculous and rage inducing and cowardly and.... Like I said, I have no words. I normally also wouldn't insult people, but as my Mum taught me: If somebody is shitty to you, you have every right in the world to think badly of them. And that blog, wow, they lost any ounce of respect someone might have pretty damn fast.

(re)

Glad you got that off your chest, darling. How about a hug? 💖💖