#and if you think ‘kill all men’ = feminism

[warmhugs4pugs]

Just softblocked someone who was following me cause I’m not sure if they were serious or not but friendly reminder misandrists are not allowed here in fact we very much love men in this house ❤️

[letoscrawls]

OKAY SO WE HAVE A DATE

I'm going back to my old dorm on friday to return the suitcase i borrowed from my friend so i have three days to make up my mind and decide what to write on the note and WHERE TO LEAVE IT

So any advice/suggestion is VERY welcomed 😭😭😭

[iceyrukia]

i really think some "feminists" were very shortsighted with the whole "oh i split the bill and pay for my man because I'm an independent feminist that doesn't need a man and I feel like I owe him something if i don't pay".

Like I'm sorry to tell you this but a man isn't gonna respect you any more or is inherently more "feminist" if he always you to pay. In fact it just gives men another thing to benefit from women without them even doing the bare fucking minimum of even addressing serious issues that actually affect women's lives like sexual assault, rape or even other actual oppressive gender roles like being expected to do domestic labor or "sexual labor" for men. Men are not oppressed for paying a bill on a date because that transactional relationship that they complain about as "oppression" was their own doing so please stop trying so hard to prove to men that you're not a "gold digger" because I promise you that a lot of men will TAKE AND TAKE AND TAKE from you without any fucking shame or self-awareness because of their male entitlement. Your feminism doesn't owe men shit and your only goal should be to liberate yourself from male control and any man who tries to tell you otherwise in just another self-serving moid.

This is not me advocating for gender roles or hyper-gammy btw I'm just trying to highlight how men use feminism for their own gain.

[gingus-doon]

thinking of that transles separatist girlie who said every attractive trait in men is eroticized misogyny

[idiosyncraticrednebula]

I feel like whenever people discuss "gender roles" on social media and just in society at large, they simplify it way too damn much.

[tacochippy]

its always "women are people" until that means theyre capable of being soemthing other than perfect, demure victims. sometimes. and this is a wild concept. women can be cruel. because women are people and people are capable of hurting other people on purpose.

[sprnklersplashes]

I am going to say something that might piss people on this site off, and that is that the stabbing at a Taylor Swift themed event in Southport does not exist in a vacuum.

It exists in a world where a joke about bringing a nail gun to the Eras tour to shoot fans gets 400k likes on TikTok, or where a reel about crashing a plane full of Swifties gets 200k likes on Instagram. It exists in a world where, on this very website, the one that promotes itself as rational and reasonable, someone says that "Taylor Swift and her fans should all die violent horrible deaths" and people applauded it. It exists in a world where, during TTPD release week men were in Swifties' comment sections declaring they would beat their daughters and girlfriends if they ever so much as listened to one of her albums. And it exists in a world where this week, fans of a TV show (which I will not name because that is not the point) sent death threats to a girl on Twitter for daring to be a fan of both their beloved show and Taylor Swift.

I don't give a fuck what your opinion of Taylor Swift is. I don't care if you think her music is grating, I don't care if you think she is the worst thing to happen to humanity since Eve ate the god damn apple. This is the dark side of stan culture that no-one talks about; where dislike of an artist becomes so obsessive that it becomes normal, even funny, to joke about killing their fans, because "it's just online, it's just a joke". It isn't. It is rarely ever "just online".

And yes I am going to be That Person and say that you can complain about Swift's brand of feminism and debate her position as a feminist icon all day long, at the end of the day, her name is still synonymous with girls. It doesn't take a genius to work out who this event was geared at.

I am not going to sit and claim that by simply not liking Taylor Swift you directly caused this. I would encourage you to step back, look at the bigger picture of stan culture, including obsessive dislike of an artist, and ask yourself how much this culture has enabled this. If making jokes on tiktok about killing someone over a pop star is normalised, how much of a leap is it to attacking kids with a knife at a fan event?

and of course there is the fact that the british media didn't even wait until those kids were buried before using this event to spread their racist, anti-immigrant agenda despite the race of the attacker not being known. all I can say to that is I am sickened and disappointed but not shocked.

[trans-androgyne]

omg you’re so right men are not dangerous to women at all so i guess i can totally go out alone at night all by myself and if i get raped by a man it will surely mean nothing and i should keep trusting men and think there is nothing wrong with them 😍😍😍

Trusting every strange man in the dark ≠ understanding that men aren’t ontologically evil, OR necessarily your personal oppressors, which is what I am saying. Women have literally killed or gotten killed men (especially men of color) that THEY have privilege over on some axes due their fear. So yeah, there is a way to fear men too much. This is how you get radical feminism. This is how you get TERFism. It feeds hate groups like MRAs to be genuinely hated for the way they were born. And it’s not how you progress actual intersectional feminism. To do that, you have to heal your relationship with men. I’ve been raped by men. I’ve been abused by men. But I understand that, while the societal conditions men are raised under (patriarchy, rape culture) contributed, it happened because they’re personally terrible people, not because they were born male. Acting like it is can lead you to dismiss the fact that women can pose just as much of a danger if they’re similarly terrible people. So, I’m working on healing my relationship with men. When you’re ready, you should too. I promise you it feels better than being uneasy for the rest of your life.

[doberbutts]

I also think it is, hmm, incredibly dangerous to say that [privileged demographic] has a lot to lose or only loses when discussing activism meant to resolve bigotry. That is a really good way to tell said demographic that it is not worth it to invest in your cause.

The only thing men have to lose from supporting feminism is misogyny. Feminism is not about tearing men down. It is about lifting women up.

The only thing white people have to lose from anti-racism is racism. Anti-racism is not about tearing white people down. It's about lifting people of color up.

And it *is* important to have this distinction, and to tell the privileged demographic that it helps them too, because right now bigots of all flavors are purposefully misrepresenting this activism as "blacks want to enslave all whites" and "feminists want to kill all men". Don't prove these assholes right for them for free, hello???

"Hey white people, you know how Healthcare in this country sucks and how once you're super poor it's very hard to crawl out of the pit and public transportation is a joke? And you know how you want to fix these things because it would better society? Well you're in luck because racism is a significant factor in why this problem persists so if you want to fix this problem you should start caring about fixing racism" is not "centering white people when talking about racism", it's showing the whole of society how deep the claws of oppression have sunk into our lives and how to stop the bleeding.

[genderkoolaid]

I feel like very few pro-trans people are talking about how the current moral panic about teens transitioning is explicitly centred on transmasc teens.

I’ve seen a lot of TERFs very explicitly cite the reason that they got involved in anti-trans campaigning was because more “girls” started transitioning in the 2010s (when before it had been more “boys.”) The initial survey on “Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria” by Lisa Littman surveyed parents of teens over 80% of whom were “female sex at birth.” The Cass Report is explicitly about “the reasons for the increase in referrals [to the NHS for youth transition] and why this increase has disproportionately been seen in birth registered females presenting in adolescence.” Probably the single most popular anti-trans book about youth transition is Abigail Shrier’s Irreversible Damage, which is about transmasc teens.

Not to say that transfem teens aren’t targeted, especially when it comes to sports & bathroom bans, and being painted as predators from a very young age — although there’s definitely also been a lot of hysteria about transmasc teens “seducing” other teens into transitioning, as well as being aggressive, and it’s not like transmasc teens don’t also get beat up in bathrooms.

But just! I don’t see most pro-trans people acknowledging that this whole anti-trans-teen movement was fuelled in a huge way by transandrophobia (or whatever you want to call it), and that one of its primary goals is stopping transmascs from having any agency over our own bodies. At its core, it’s about transmascs not being properly submissive baby-makers who are attractive to straight men and the property of their parents.

It’s not just about transphobia, it’s about transandrophobia specifically and the fact that people can’t even name that makes me doubt what I’ve seen with my own eyes.

(Follow up to my last ask about the trans teen moral panic) I don't think it would bother me so much except that I've so often seen people try to silence transmasc voices on this topic, or say that transmascs are just collateral damage, as if we're not one of the primary reasons it exists and one of its primary targets. I feel like "nothing about us without us" should apply here, you know?

All of this, absolutely.

I've seen people claim that actually, ROGD and its associated panic attacks are actually secretly about transfems at their core, because transfems are the (only) one's blamed for young girls transitioning! Which is fucking wild!!! Like not only is it not true (parents tend to blame social media, specifically transmasc creators who talk about transitioning) but like why do you have this impulse where even things that are blatantly targeting transmascs can't actually be about transmascs. Why are we always the insignificant side characters in our own experiences.

This is how erasure functions: if you can't deny that anti-transmasc violence is happening, deny that its happening to transmascs. Obscure the victims and how the violence is motivated by their transmasculinity.

& then there's also the way that people act like infantilizing misogyny is 1) the only thing any transmasc ever experiences 2) is Oppression Lite and is more annoying than anything. Like sure let's just forget all of feminism and the well documented ways in which being infantilized kills and ruins lives. Because when it's a transmasc it doesn't really count.

Ik somewhere out there there's a video of ContraPoints where she actually corrects another person on their erasure of radfem anti-transmasc rhetoric. Let's see more of that please.

[rappaccini]

do we need to like. talk. about how grrm taking so long to complete asoiaf means the original subversion of daenerys targaryen's character has been basically lost.

because aside from the show massively fucking the ending up, you also have to consider the seismic shift of the perception of fantasy as a whole since asoiaf hit the mainstream and since more intersectional perspectives and deconstructions of white saviorism have risen in prominence.

like it's a good thing that we're collectively critiquing and sideeying dany's storyline for the questionable, orientalist and often outright racist elements, and that the girlboss dany idea is being challenged. but uh guys. take a look at grrm. do you really think he was setting out to write a paul atreides style deconstruction of white saviorism with dany. or is it not more likely that he put those things into his story by mistake and didn't realize those problematic elements were there until decades later-- especially since girlboss feminism didn't fucking exist when he started writing asoiaf. is it not more likely that he missed the points he was trying to make about dany being a foreigner interfering in eastern politics and the white savior vibe her story sometimes puts off is completely accidental.

people do not seem to realize what the climate of fantasy was when grrm was writing asoiaf in the 90s-00s. the moral grays and grimdark elements of modern fantasy were in part popularized by asoiaf. grrm wasn't subverting the idea of dany being a good ruler. dany being a good ruler was the subversion.

daenerys targaryen is a deconstruction and subversion of the almost comically evil sorceress-queen antagonist of a fantasy novel that would never be written today.

think through what dany looks like from the outside:

she's the daughter of the mad incestuous king who terrorized westeros only a generation ago, and she's back to get his throne for herself.

she's going to make her arrival by invading from the Savage East and killing the one true lost heir, the son of the prince everyone loves and wishes were king, who was raised among the people, who's a boy, who practices the faith of the seven and will marry a westerosi lady. and she's going to destroy the shining city that he's going to rule from.

she rides a black and red dragon that spits black and red fire. she has two other dragons with her and used blood magic to hatch them. she killed a house full of warlocks, has prophetic dreams, talks to mysterious sorcerers and witches and is linked with magic.

she comes from a family of incestuous, weird-looking, magic-using, dragon-riding conquerors who are the last survivors of an empire that conquered half the world and decimated and enslaved an entire continent by using dark magic, dragons and horrifying experiments. and her family in particular is infamous for having a tendency to go insane.

she's so beautiful men are throwing themselves at her. she dominated one husband and killed another. her dragon set poor sweet quentyn martell on fire when all he was doing was trying to honor a betrothal agreement. she has sex with both men and women where she's in control of the encounters. she had a sexual relationship with her brother. she 'bewitched' the most powerful warlord in essos with her sexuality, convinced him to kill her brother for her, took over his following, and will come to westeros with control of the most deadly cavalry in the world who are already considered to be 'savages' -- and her association with them has already started rumors that she fucks horses because she's so insatiable.

she's infertile and sacrificed her one pregnancy (gasp, the Firstborn Son!) to hatch her dragons.

kinslayer allegations: her brother, her son, and her (fake) nephew. even her mother, to an extent.

she has very tanned skin, spooky silver hair (that's very short) and purple eyes, a tyroshi accent and wears revealing clothing that would scandalize westerosis.

she's the savior figure for a Foreign Religion that's spreading in westeros and competing with the faith of the seven.

she's either the savior figure for the 'barbarian' nomadic raiders, or the mother of their prophesized savior.

she's leading an army of foreign (brown) slave soldiers, sellswords and 'barbarians.' she's being advised by foreigners. her handmaids aren't Nice Noble Girls-- they're nomadic horsewomen who are stereotyped as unmannered and promiscuous.

and the westerosis in her camp are the ones westeros hates: pirates that just destroyed oldtown, westeros's beloved center of trade, faith and knowledge. specifically euron, who wants to marry her. the dwarf that killed king joffrey and escaped and is now back because he wants to burn down king's landing. an ugly westerosi lord from backwater bear isle who was banished for selling slaves. a westerosi knight who refused to accept the king's wishes for him to retire and ran off to serve the opposition... and probably marwyn, a controversial maester.

she destroyed the essosi economy, has sacked multiple cities, turned the ruling class out of their homes, crucified a bunch of nobles, and will probably burn the volantene tower full of nobles on her way west.

she's a woman, specifically a teenage girl, who has power in her own right, who wants to claim more of it. and who has no more powerful man to answer to.

daenerys is the embodiment of everything westeros hates and fears to such an extent that even if she does everything right, or doesn't do anything at all, westeros will never accept her.

we spent five books following dany off on her own in essos because that plotline's all about giving you context before she arrives: here's the Evil Queen's backstory, so by the time she does what she does, the reader completely understands and empathizes with her, even if they disagree with her actions. and when all our heroes hate her, and she decides to strip them of their power like she did in essos with the slavers, we don't know what to do.

the subversion is: what if our view of this evil antagonist is xenophobic and sexist, and all the things we're scared of her for were taken out of context or twisted to villainize her. what if the foreign culture she's from isn't evil, and what if her slave army is actually freedmen who chose to follow her, and she opposes the legacy of slavery her family sources their power from. what if she's 'mad' because she's understandably angry and upset, and not ~craaazy~. what if the nobles she was killing deserved it, what if the system they depend on was evil and deserved to be destroyed. what if our system that we've been fighting to preserve isn't much better and needs to go too, even if People We Like are in charge of it. what if she's a teenager who doesn't always make the right decisions, especially when much older adults with their own motives are manipulating her.

the subversion is: what if the evil sorceress-queen who's going to invade our wonderful fantasy realm and bring all her big bad scary changes with it is a complex person with good intentions who actually has a completely legitimate reason to burn it all down.

so if dany genuinely does go evil when she gets to westeros... there's no subversion anymore because the trope is played straight. therefore, she won't. but it won't even matter. we'll know that dany isn't a monster, but nobody else will see her that way.

[butch-reidentified]

anyone here seen the show Resident Alien?

bc holy shit am I obsessed with the portrayal of 30-something women, their solidarity, feminism, friendship, and fun and self-expression! GODDD I did not realize how BADLY I needed to see a tv show actually depict (attractive but not "bikini models" by any means) adult (and admit they're adults, real adults not 20 yr olds) women as human beings with deep complex personalities and relationships, who really stand with each other despite being flawed humans who do sometimes hurt each other, who are silly and goofy and get into shenanigans bc oh my god WOMEN CAN STILL HAVE FUN AFTER TURNING 30.

Especially later in season 1 and in season 2 (I'm still on s2), there's just so much female badassery and solidarity that I love. there's also a gym workout scene in s2 with my favorite character D'Arcy and tbhhhh that scene is 😨🥵 Like, my wife said "this scene was definitely filmed by a lesbian, right?" 💀 It really did feel like celebrating an attractive woman build muscle without the typical male gaze-y lens. it actually focused on her flexion, facial expressions, sweat, flushing, yk, the things we are supposed to pretend women don't do even while vigorously exercising.

this same woman leads her friends on a drunken midnight raid of town hall where they review the town budget and discover they're paid less than the men. cut to the entire group of women (one of whom is the mayor's wife) standing in the mayor's bedroom in the middle of the night, standing over him and informing him "no, this isn't a nightmare, what the fuck is wrong with you, pay us fairly" like?? holy shit lmao. D'Arcy then proceeds to RENT A HELICOPTER to drop fliers all over town telling women about this and encouraging female solidarity in fighting back. this barely scratches the surface of her character's feminist heroics. in another seen she cuts the brakes on her best friend's abuser's truck and sends it down a hill in front of him, before telling him she'll happily kill him if he gets near her friend again. it's just so much fun to see. she also rescues herself and 2 others from a crevasse in the glacier by climbing 30 feet in a storm with a broken wrist. oh and shes a FORMER OLYMPIC SKIER bc fuck you

I've actually been very impressed with this show in a number of ways. they have a young girl character whose family is Muslim, and the writers seem to want to critique Islam while being aware that they have to avoid performative liberals picking up on this too much. so at first I was a bit 👀 thinking they were going a certain way with the character, but they ended up sneaking in a lot of critiques of Islamic patriarchy. they keep surprising me.

[shychili]

to any radfems who need to hear this: stop treating your non radfem female friends like they’re idiots and stop being an asshole to them. stop scoffing when they start talking about manipedis or dates with men and stop listing all the carcinogenic properties of makeup when they merely mention that they bought a lipstick. i know you think this is an effective way to radicalize them or something but no women ever got into feminism by listening to their friends scold them and humiliate them about their gender conforming practices. you’re not spreading radical feminist knowledge, you’re just being annoying and killing the mood, plus if you keep doing this your female friends will probably ditch you at some point

[star-anise]

Fun upside of rats and spambots fleeing Twitter for Tumblr are all the new fucking, uh...

They're not TERFs this time, they're "not feminists" because "feminism is cancer", they're, uh...

"Violent Misandrists"?

Like, huge use of Judith killing Holofernes vibes. 15yos posting "Kill all men (except my male mutuals lol!)" and insinuating that banning pornography will end child abuse forever.

(deep breath)

Look.

If you are a teenager from the USA, and your parents are Republicans, please consider that EVERYTHING you were ever taught about media, politics, gender, sex, feminism, and the advisability of mass murder as a political tool

has been carefully tailored to make you feel enraged with the state of the world, which is full of Good People and Bad People (groups it is very easy to sort everyone you meet into) and the way to Fix Society is to criminalize, incarcerate, or brutally murder as many Bad People as possible. You have probably seen several different sorting systems proposed, and may not have seen much political discourse beyond debates about "Which PART of society are Bad People who should be punished?"

And yes, I realize you've also been taught that people like me insisting on bullshit like "nuance" and "tolerance" and "educating yourself" are literal Satan and probably in favour of ritualized child abuse and puppy-kicking.

We're not. I'm not. I'm like a lot of people you wouldn't think are Good People, who nevertheless work to make the world better in what we understand to be the best methods available.

I don't know why I'm saying this. I'll probably end up a target of vitriol and regret ever speaking up. Just.

You are not smart for coming to the conclusion that the world is full of Bad People who just need to be killed. You did not figure out (or find the true prophet of) The Secret Truth of the Entire Universe. You haven't figured out how to fix the world. You just followed the fucking breadcrumb trail laid down by people who want to recruit you to commit atrocities in their name.

The world is so much more complicated than you've been led to believe. Fixing its problems is so much more tedious and difficult. Cruelty is so much less useful. And you've got so much more learning to do.

[decolonize-the-everything]

Transmisandry isn’t real. They’re getting hate for being Trans not for being men.

Misandry isn‘t real. It hatred for their race, not for being men.

Whatever men of color get, women of color get it twice as much.

Listen to women of color. Don’t silence us.

I do loudly listen and platform and follow and support Black women. I tell people all the time the Combahee River Collective was right when they wrote that if Black women free then everyone would be because their freedom would "necessitate" the destruction of all systems of oppression.

In a way that why I made that post ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Women of color get it worse than everyone.

Kimberlé Crenshaw created the term intersectionality after looking at a case where a factory worker had fired all the black women that he had employed. He had white women working for him and he still had black men working for him.

So the judge threw out the case Black women has started because courts did not have the infrastructure to recognize this overlap and said it would be a "Pandora's box" of other people trying to get rights if they did.

Isn't that wild??

And be honest, do you really think feminism listens to women of color? Mikki Kendall said this in her book Hood Feminism: Notes from the Women a Movement Left Behind.

"Feminism that could ignore police brutality killing women of color, that could ignore the study abuse and disenfranchisement and abuse in national and local politics of some women based on race and religion, wasn't about equality or equity for all; it was about benefitting white women at the expense of all others."

"We cannot and will not abandon our sons, brothers, fathers, husbands, or friends, because for us they don't represent an enemy. We have our issues with the patriarchy, but then so do they, as the most powerful faces of it aren't men of color. My husband may not always understand how misogyny impacts me, but he can absolutely grasp what it means when a boss's or a coworker's racism is an impediment. We sit together at that table, even if we don't face the exact same battles in every aspect of life. Women in communities of color must balance fighting external problematic voices with educating those inside our communities who are bad actors, and we expect feminism to do the same work on itself."

Here's something else that helped inform me

Black women have it worse than everyone and while the rest of us absolutely should shut the fuck up and listen, nobody does so I don't see where white women have gotten in their head that they don't have power over Black men or why they can't say anything?

When cis women absolutely hold power over trans men? (Esp trans men of color) since since you threw transmisandry in there.

You see where I'm going with this?

I think it very much an extension of white supremacy, anti-blackness, and anti-intersectionality to say that because you have it worse than someone else that someone else should shut up and not even have the Language to describe their experiences.

Either it applies to everyone and we all shut up for Black women or it doesn't :)

You have to judge people by their character, not their gender, weirdo.

Solidarity is for everyone and all their intersecting identities or it's just a white supremacist patriarchy for women.

Thanks for coming to my TEDtalk 💗

[cardentist]

this is all gonna be very disorganized and rambly, but

"the male loneliness epidemic" as a concept is like.

does anybody remember when it was common knowledge in feminist spaces that part of the Point of feminism was recognizing that All groups of people were negatively impacted by sexism?

I Remember the ridiculous "mens rights activist" era. I REMEMBER feminist talking points at the time pointing out that it was Toxic Masculinity that contributed to things like men not being able to be vulnerable with the people who care about them, or men (or Boys) not being taken seriously as rape victims.

and the point of this Wasn't to blame men for their own pain, to blame men for the system that they were negatively impacted by. but to point out how Feminism Was Meant To Help Them. how it was Sexism that needed to be dismantled to address the things that these very ridiculous men were angry at feminism about.

and now it's just like.

not only have people not learned this lesson, it's becoming increasingly Extinct as a concept even within feminist and activist spaces.

I Do find "male loneliness epidemic" silly as a term. it's particularly strange to me that there have been several articles ran about it.

But Ultimately This Would Not Be Necessary If The Climate Was Different.

like. the term is silly, I'm sure the articles are silly. but it is just Objectively True that men are statistically more likely to kill themselves. the exact number fluctuates depending on the study and the years they were conducted, but this has been Consistent for literally decades.

and it just ! feels abjectly cruel to watch people act like acknowledging something Like This is stupid. to watch people lump in men together As A Class and more or less victim blame them.

why should We care about Men when it's Men who are sexist? if Men care so much about being Lonely then then why [screenshot of 4channer]

a conversation on sexism creating a system where men are emotionally isolated, are discouraged from vulnerability, from relying on the people around them emotionally, are discouraged from affection, Is Good Actually.

like ! I really do wish that people didn't take a nose dive into gender essentialism and decide that men and women are just categorically and fundamentally different from each other. that if one suffers then the other must only be the one that inflicts suffering. that to recognize the pain of one is to deny the pain of the other. when that is Literally Not How It Works.

it's not about why Women should care about Men. it's about recognizing a facet of sexism that is negatively impacting PEOPLE and discussing it in the hopes of starting a long term conversation about it. to potentially encourage change and reach the people that need to hear it.

because All People are victims of sexism, All People can enforce sexism, and All People benefit from recognizing these facts and working together to undo the effects of sexism on a wide scale.

and I Dunno. I think it's really telling that some people actively choose Not to show basic human decency and compassion towards people if they can get out of it. if social convention in their circles say that X group of people don't Deserve It.

we live in a time where compassion fatigue is a real issue. where we have to process more atrocities on a daily basis than the human mind was ever meant to handle. but I still feel like human suffering should just like. Matter As A Baseline. it shouldn't be anyone's job to Convince You that it's worth caring about, you should just care about people.